The Business of Watch [038] Armin Strom Co-Founders And Top Executives Serge Michel and Claude Greisler

0:00Serge Michel:Welcome to the Business of Watches, the Hodinkee podcast where we go behind the scenes and talk to the executives and the decision makers who are making the watch industry tick. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman. Today we are joined by the co-founders and the co-heads of an independent Swiss brand, Armand Strom, based in Bielbien, Switzerland. Today we are joined by Serge Michel and Claude Grisler, the co-heads of that brand. Serge and Claude, welcome to the Business of Watches.

0:37Claude Greisler:Thank you very much. Thank you for having us.

0:38Serge Michel:Great. And so I got to visit you a few weeks back. It was my first visit to Arm & Strom. Interesting. I mean, I want to start off. Your titles are co-founders and you're both co-heads or co-CEOs of the company. How does that work in terms of, you know, work responsibilities or how the company runs? How do you divvy up that leadership?

1:04Claude Greisler:I think we didn't really, giving a lot of thinking into this, we just, Claude and I, we started, probably get back, we're going to talk about the history as well. So we started the Armin's John brand as co-founders. Then Claude is definitely focusing more or 100 % focusing on the developments, on the engineering part on building up the whole manufacturing site in Beale. And it was more taking care of the sales side, of the business side. And then we just came here where we are step by step. We didn't really talk a lot of who is the CEO, who is not the CEO. It's just we are co-founders, good friends today, and we're just leading the company as it is today.

1:45Serge Michel:And Claude, I mean, let's talk about, you know, both of your backgrounds. Serge, you come from a sort of business family that were involved in other industries, I guess the medical industry, pharmaceutical kind of things. Claude, you are a watchmaker and I believe you're an engineer. Is that right? I mean, tell me about how your sort of training and background brought you together in this endeavor.

2:11Claude Greisler:Yeah, maybe for my career. So I grew up in a watchmaker family. My grandmother and my grandfather, they already worked in the watch industry. So this is how I get influenced and inspired to get a watchmaker degree. So my first degree was watchmaking, which took about four years of education. And then I graduated in watch engineering to become an expert in first watch restoration. So for antique clocks and pocket watches. But then unfortunately, there were not a lot of jobs available. And then I also did a degree in watch movement engineering. and then got hired by Christoph Claret as a young engineer to develop watch movements.

2:55Serge Michel:Interesting, interesting. And then so, you know, tell us what brought you together. I think you were friends. You knew each other before you started Armin Strom. So let's talk about, you know, the founding and the beginnings of the company, why it's called Armin Strom, who Armin Strom was, and how that came together.

3:15Claude Greisler:So yeah, the history goes really back to Mr. Arminström and the little village in Switzerland called Burgdorf. So Arminström was active there as a watchmaker with a small shop in Burgdorf. I grew up in Burgdorf and also did the Claude. So we knew each other of the same age. So we went to the same schools. We knew each other more or less since childhood. So when we had the opportunity to take over the brand, so my dad was quite a close friend of Mr. Armin Strom. So he purchased the watch. And then my first experience with Armin Strom was when I was probably around 12, 13 years old, when I went into his basement and did see him working on his skeleton pieces.

4:06Claude Greisler:So we got friends, the Armin Strom family, myself, and Claude, at the other hand, the family of Chrysler. So the parents, they just had a shop just next to, very close to Mr. Arminstrom. So also Claude knew Arminstrom since he was a little boy as well. And Armin was always the guy for us, driving with his Red Jaguar in Burgdorf, traveling the world, selling his exclusive timepieces. So it's always a guy we looked up to him. And when we got the possibility, because it was actually, Armin was looking for a succeeder. So somebody to take over the brand because he was in a certain age. So we, my dad and myself, we immediately said yes, as more from the angle of watch collectors.

4:53Claude Greisler:And as you said before, we have a completely different background. We said yes, so it would be sad if that brand would just disappear. So we took over the brand with the idea of just keeping the tradition of skeleton timepieces. This was Mr. Arminstrom, his strength was where he was active. So we hired two watchmakers to be trained by Mr. Arminstrom in the craftsmanship of skeleton watches. But then suddenly actually we realized that there's a potential and if you have a brand, I have more marketing background, we should do a bit more than just keep buying watch movements, skeleton ice stem which is beautiful it's nice but we had the we had a slightly different idea and this is when claude came into the game so i called claude because i knew he was doing all his as he explained before the professions with within the watchmaking industry so i called claude and asked him to join to join me to join armistrown to join the brand and he was immediately excited about this new adventure.

6:01Claude Greisler:And so he came to Arminström.

6:04Serge Michel:And so you started in Bienn with the name Arminström and early on carrying that tradition of skeletonization that Mr. Arminström was known for. And then, you know, talk about how the brand, you know, has grown and, you know, some of the specialized and in-house movements and sort of tech that you've come to be known for. I mean, you do a resonance watch, which is still quite rare, but you developed a whole signature sort of different way of doing that. Claude, I think you were very much involved with that, leading that research and discovery. Talk about that process and how Armidstrom came to make its own kind of resonance timepiece.

6:59Claude Greisler:Yeah, I think everything goes back to 2009, as Serge mentioned, when we took the decision to become a movement manufacturer. What we mainly realized, Serge and myself, is that Mr. Armidstrom, he wrote chapter one for the brand. He did this skeletonized timepieces. He was known and called the master of hand skeletonization because hand skeletonization is like an artwork. And he was very known for his particular style. And Armstrong was strongly believing that the movement should not be covered with a dial, that the movement should always be the star of the watch. And Serge and I, when we were just under 30 years, and I mean, we were fans of traditional watches.

7:42Claude Greisler:But on the other hand, there was this wish of maybe creating or giving our identity to the brand with like in-house manufacturing movements, maybe not fully classical hand skeletonized and hand engraved, but always transparent mechanics from the front and from the backside. And we realized that there were a few suppliers who could have produced movements for us. But on the other hand, there was this wish of being completely independent. And this is why we decided to become a movement manufacturer in 2009. And when you become a movement manufacturer, I think first you have to prove that you're able to do your own movements.

8:21Claude Greisler:So we started with a very, not a standard hand winding movement, it was a double barrel hand winding movement with power reserve indicator. Then we did the automatic winding movement with a micro rotor, we did a tourbillon, we had an automatic winding tourbillon. And so we were on the, let's say, the very first five, six years, we were really proving to the collectors that we were able to realize and to produce our reliable in-house calibers. And then by creating those calibers, we realized that there is room to improve because we had very modern CNC machines. We use the latest 3D development technologies.

9:04And then there was like this, I mean, the resonance is a topic which I worked since I graduated in watch restoration.

9:12Claude Greisler:And I knew that that's an unsolved problem. So I think as a young engineer and as a young motivated brand, we try to solve problems. And we realized that, okay, there is room to improve watch movements. I mean, we improved the power reserve on our standard movements. We had a very accurate, cool-looking tourbillon. But on the other hand, there was like this resonance topic, which was always a very meaningful movement for myself.

9:41Serge Michel:And for those who don't maybe know exactly what resonance is, explain the concept and practice of resonance in watchmaking.

9:51Claude Greisler:Exactly. Resonance is a very old phenomenon. Basically, it's a physical phenomenon which means synchronization between two independent watch movements. And if two watch movements start to synchronize and to influence each other and synchronize their frequency, the time becomes much more consistent and the time is much more reliable to external shocks and impacts because they do help each other keeping a very consistent frequency. A phenomenon which got discovered by Christian Huygens, the inventor of the pendulum, more than 400 years ago. And then there was a handful of the most famous watchmakers who dedicated themselves to solve the resonance problem.

10:40Claude Greisler:We had Abraham-Louis Bruguet, we had Antti Janvier, recently we had François Bourgeois. So, because it's not only a huge challenge of having two independent movements in one watch, but to bring them to beat in synchronization is what it's all about, resonance. And we realized that it's thanks to modern technologies like flexible suspensions, that there was room to improve the existing traditional approach of a resonance movement with two balance wheels. And this is what's driving us to create our own resonance mechanism because we knew that the resonance is very helpful and it's very meaningful in chronometry because it makes the movement more precise.

11:30Claude Greisler:But maybe the more traditional way of doing resonance doesn't solve all the problems. and this is why we developed this resonance clutch which allows the two movements to communicate in a much better environment and so the performance of the resonance is increased tremendously so i mean this is the resonance is much better performing than the traditional resonance and this is this is why resonance became such a signature complication for the brand because then everything came together because we had our in-house research and development. We have the in-house fabrication. So we do all the components of the movements are produced in-house.

12:14Claude Greisler:We have the hand decoration in-house, galvanic treatments, assembling. And so, yeah, this is definitely a signature piece for the brand.

12:22Serge Michel:And so, you know, let's be a little more specific about the resonance clutch sort of mechanism or approach that you've taken. I mean, essentially, there is a component made of metal, but I'm not sure what, that connects the two balances basically and sort of improves that resonance of frequencies and movement between the two movements. Talk about what was the process involved in creating that mechanism. And I believe that, you know, there were outsiders involved and researchers. And yeah, talk about it because it wasn't all just done by yourself, if I'm correct. But tell me. Yeah.

13:10Claude Greisler:So when we had this idea of improving the resonance mechanism and it's not a connection between the two balance fields, it's a shared suspension. It's like a flexible bridge. because what we learned in resonance is that the vibrations go through the movement and the vibration which goes through the movement allow the two balance wheels to synchronize. The transmission of vibrations through solid plates as bridges and main plates are invisible. So you can measure them, but we don't see them. But what we learned is that the exchange of vibration can be made in a more precise way. And this is why we do not connect the two hairsprings or the two balance wheels.

13:55We just have them sitting in a very flexible bridge.

14:01Claude Greisler:The resonance clutch is basically a balance bridge, which is extremely flexible and which allows the two hairsprings to communicate in between them in a much more optimum way than a solid blade or a solid bridge. so it took us about three and a half years to develop that clutch because that's a new element for in watchmaking watchmakers never used flexible elements especially in between hairsprings or or suspensions for for for the start it's the smallest element which is fixed at the end of the hairspring so the stop normally is fixed in the balance bridge in our case it's fixed in these flexible elements so there's no watchmaker book you can open and just learn about how to develop a flexible suspension you have to write history you have to find people who are able to work with those flexible elements and at the beginning it was trial error trial error so like watchmakers we strongly believe in what we see and we adapt the theory in what we have learned from the workbench.

15:08Claude Greisler:Versus doctors or professors in physics, they do the opposite. They first think about the problem, then they realize, and then they figure out why the practical tests do not fit to the theoretical press. So it's the opposite. And we learned that we need help because we were at the point where we had perfect resonance. There was just one position which was always putting us in an unstable resonance environment or situation. And so we approached the CSCM, the Centre Scientifique Electronique et Microtechnique in Neuchâtel. The CSCM has a very long history in the watch industry. They developed the silicon technology.

15:53Claude Greisler:They worked on a lot of different escapements. So they have a huge knowledge in watchmaking and they also work in aerospace technology. And in aerospace, they use a lot of those flexible guidings, those flexible elements. Everything happens by chance in life. And we had a close friend who knew the CEO of the CSCM. So we went because at that time, the team was still very small at Armin Strong. So we went to see that the CEO of the CSCM and we showed him our prototype because we were extremely proof. and he was so fascinated of seeing two balance wheels beating in sync. We had the patent. We had a patent on that flexible connection between the two hairsprings.

16:38Claude Greisler:And so we were asking him, yeah, could you help like, you know, finding the right shape for that spring or to try to understand exactly what happens? And he said, yeah, this is exactly what we do. And he made us an offer, which was beyond what we could invest in a development. But the guy was so into this resonance thing that he said, okay, but if you can't afford to work with the CSCM, there is another way. So we can, there is maybe the opportunity to get the thing financed by the government. And because you are a small business, you try to grow a small business, you have a patent and you have a prototype.

17:19Claude Greisler:So you can apply to get some help, financial help to do the research together with the CSCM. And then we went to this, what is called, Commission of Innovation and Technology. And so we applied to get some money to study on resumes. And then finally they agreed and they financed a big part of the collaboration with the CSCM.

17:47Serge Michel:Interesting, interesting. And so give us a timeline as to when this was. I mean, you were thinking about this back in 2009 when you started the company, but when was this taking place? And can you give us a sense of, you know, what kind of investment it took to come up with such innovation?

18:05Claude Greisler:So the manufacturing was built in 2009. We launched the Resonance in 2016. and we started the collaboration with the CSM, if I'm not wrong, 2014. And we basically started working on Resonance about 2012. So it was like four years before launching the final piece. And then two years to put the patent down to get the first prototypes made. And then another one and a half year together with the CSCM to finalize the actual shape, which is now on our resonance mechanism.

18:49Serge Michel:Indeed. And, you know, last thing on the resonance side, I believe the last time we were talking, you were suggesting that perhaps the application of this clutch and this technology, this innovation, could be used for other complications other than resonance. Is that right? Am I thinking about that correctly?

19:11Claude Greisler:Absolutely. I think the potential of flexible elements is extremely big because we still, I mean, we have to handle tolerances. And every watch engineer has a problem because even if we have the most precise machines which we use, we always have to handle tolerances. And we have to work with play in between different components. And flexible elements, they do work mostly without play. So there is, let's say, I think in the chronograph, I see applications for chronographies, for calendars, for minute repeaters. There is room, definitely room, to bring more flexible elements to the watchmaking world.

19:57Claude Greisler:It's just, you know, as a watchmaker, you get trained and you learn all these theories. We get all those watchmaker books. We have to go through the watchmaker's book. We have to learn theories. And then we get tested on, you know, does he know how to apply this theory on a movement or on a new development. But there is not that much room for innovation. So watchmakers do not get trained to innovate timepieces. This is why a lot of watchmakers, they always take reference on the past. But Abraham Louis Broguet was never taking reference to the past. He always tried to improve and tried to learn new things.

20:40Claude Greisler:And this is exactly what drives today the brand Armin Strom. We have a lot of respect for existing theories, but we also know that if you want to grow and innovate, we have to think about outside of the box. We have to close the watchmaker books. And maybe we have to open books from aerospace technology, from automotive technologies, and then get our inspirations from other mechanical industries than the watch industry. Because otherwise, if we just apply what we learned, I think the movement cannot get better. So this is what drives me as an engineer to get the inspiration a little bit from the outside of the watch industry.

21:23Claude Greisler:And still having this full respect for our tradition. I mean, the way how we execute, I mean, our biggest team is hand decoration for hand beveling, Geneva strikes, Berlage. So this is a full commitment to traditional watchmaking. But as an engineer from the innovative side, we have to start to think outside of what was done before.

21:47Serge Michel:Yeah, no, that is quite interesting to think about how, indeed, the tradition and the education, the pedagogy of watchmaking actually doesn't lend itself well to that idea of innovation and doing things differently. Serge, let's talk about, I mean, you are co-founders with Claude and co-leaders. You, I believe, own the company, or you and your family own the company, or are 100 % shareholder. Talk about, you know, how many watches you make a year, how the company has grown, and what you're doing in terms of production and your facilities there in Beelbien.

22:27Claude Greisler:At the moment, we are in Beale and we are just a bit on a turning point and looking in the future and planning a lot in the future ahead. There are so many ideas, a lot the team has. So we need to guide which direction we are going. If we double the production, if we are going to more high-end exclusive pieces, we have this line called System 78, which is a bit our – it's high watch, high order. Watchery is within our museum, the entry-level complications.

22:57Serge Michel:And it's named 78 because that's the year you were both born, right? That's right.