The Business of Watches [016] Gerald Charles CEO Federico Ziviani Makes The Case For Another Genta-Linked Brand

0:00Welcome to the Business of Watches, the Hodinkee podcast where horology meets high finance and we go behind the scenes to discover what pays the bills in the watch industry. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman. This week, we're in Geneva to talk to Federico Ziviani, the CEO of Gerald Charles. Now, Gerald Charles is a smaller brand in the sector. They've got plenty of history recently and a direct link to one of the most revered names, Gerald Genta. It's a family-owned brand that requires a bit of explanation. What is this brand? How does it relate to Genta and the other Gerald Genta brand we might know that's been revived by LVMH?

0:50Ziviani gives us the backstory. how his family worked with Genta in the latter stage of his career, and how and why they took the brand back to consumers and retail beginning in 2019. He also answers our questions about the Gerald Charles pricing strategy and what he says the brand and its watchmaking bring to the table. But first, let's discuss some recent business-related headlines in the world of watches. It's just me this week. I promise we'll return to our guest host format next week.

1:33So Swiss bank von Tobel published an in-depth report on the Swiss watch industry that estimated that Rolex, the top brand, trimmed its production or allocation to dealers in 2025 for the second year in a row. At the same time, the Swiss bank estimates that Rolex strengthened its dominance and leading position in the sector, accounting for about 61 % of the sales for Swiss watches priced above 3 ,000 francs. Now, this is the kind of report that I love and I love to get into, And it was quite interesting to sort of comb through what Vontobel, which is an important but smaller bank here in Switzerland, had to say about the industry.

2:25Now, it certainly shows and underscores the sort of bifurcation that's happening in Swiss watches. which is Rolex remains the dominant brand with sales of about 10.4 to almost 10.5 billion francs in 2025. And Von Tobel does suggest that Rolex either sort of trimmed production or potentially held back some allocation to its authorized dealer network. And that makes sense. You know, What we're seeing there is Rolex responding to the sort of shifts in market sentiment. There's been obviously a bit of a downturn for the past two years. And Rolex is managing its production and allocation to sort of best meet its consumer base and best meet the market.

3:21Now, at the same time, when it did that, it's actually increased its market share in watches priced above 3 ,000 francs to about 61%. That's up from about 57 % in 2023. So it really underscores the dominant position that Rolex, based here in Geneva, that they have in the industry. Cartier, according to Van Tobel, is the second biggest brand or watch brand by sales. And obviously, Cartier watches are part of the Cartier jewelry brand and manufacturer and part of Richemont, of course. They estimate that car chase sales were about 3.3 billion Swiss francs in 2025. And that puts them in second place up from third back in 2019 when they had sales of about 1.8 billion francs.

4:24Audemars Piguet comes number three with about 2.4 billion francs. That's a big jump from 2019 when it was in sixth place with$1.2 billion. I think what we're seeing there is sort of the consolidation of Audemars Piguet moving to a mostly direct-to-consumer model through its own boutiques and AP houses that we see across the world here in Europe and in the U.S. Patek Philippe comes in at number four, about$2.3 billion in sales, up from number five back in 2019 with$1.5 billion sales back then. Omega, way back in 2019, it was the number two brand with about$2.28,$2.3 billion in sales, according to Von Tobel.

5:20Now it's slipped down to number five,$1.6 billion in sales. That is obviously the top brand for the Swatch Group, and it is their first sort of placing on the list, according to Von Tobel. So, you know, what we're seeing here, Rolex absolutely dominating 61 % of watch sales over 3 ,000 francs. I mean, really, you put the next four or five watch brands together, and only then do they add up to sort of the same size as Rolex. So it underscores, you know, the fact that these brands are continuing to do well and thrive in the Swiss watch world at a time when much of the rest of the industry is struggling.

6:14And obviously, pricing pressures, cost pressures remain the significant issue for Swiss watch brands. We've seen the price of gold increase something like 67 % last year. And Von Tobel points out that precious metal watches, those prices only rose on average by about 9 % over the same period. And that's obviously a significant delta there. Obviously, a gold watch or precious metals watch is not all completely made of gold, but it does underscore the pricing pressures and the difficulties that all of the industry is facing. not to mention the strong Swiss franc. And so indeed, what we're seeing is that bifurcation that those few brands in the top five or top 10 are doing okay, and everybody else is really feeling it.

7:17So next up is a story about COSC, the Certification Institute organization. Now, they have a new higher tier for chronometer certification. It's called Excellence Chronometer or Excellence Chronometer. And it is something that we've been expecting for a long time. We wrote about a year ago after an interview with the principal there that they were going to move this way. But it's still quite interesting to see how they are doing it. Now, basically, this will be a new higher tier that Swiss watch brands that participate in the COSC certification can participate in, and it adds some more steps to the already somewhat rigorous COSC process.

8:14Now, what will happen is that they will go through the normal certified chronometer standard testing over 15 days, and that includes accuracy to within minus four to six seconds per day. Then the movements which have been sent to COSC will return to the manufacturer. They will be cased. And then if they want the excellence chronometer certification, they will journey back to COSC, and they'll be subjected to an additional five days of testing. This will include sort of robots simulating wearing the watch for 24 hours, and then they will be tested for accuracy. And in this new higher standard, the average daily rate will have to fall between minus two and four seconds a day.

9:07So that is six seconds. Then the watch will be exposed to high levels of magnetic fields, maintain that accuracy performance, and then the power reserve will be checked to confirm the manufacturer's stated specifications. Now, obviously, this comes in the face of other standards that exist within the industry. Think about Metas, which is already utilized by Omega and Tudor, and that is slightly higher standard at five seconds per day in terms of accuracy. It also tests for water resistance, which the new COSC higher tier standard does not. Obviously, Rolex, which does use COSC, has its own superlative chronometer classification, and that requires accuracy to within four seconds a day minus two to plus two seconds.

10:10Now, you know, COSC is the original and the major chronometer certification institute or body here in Switzerland. It tests more than 2 million movements annually from some 60 Swiss brands, and that includes Rolex. And it's funded by fees paid by the brand, which it says are less than 10 francs per tested movement. So what COSC is doing here is basically getting up to standard and reflecting sort of, you know, the changes and shifts that we've seen in the industry over time and the improvement in watches and in movements accuracy over that time. And, you know, simply to become more relevant. It's interesting, I think, to note that they are continuing the original standard.

11:10And so that will give brands the choice whether or not to try and achieve the new standard. You know, it's a political decision and organization in many ways. It's got a lot of clients and stakeholders, and they have to, you know, work with everyone in the industry, not just those who are already producing movements and watches to that high standard. So it's going to start pilot testing later this year. We're going to hear more about it at Watches and Wonders. And then I think it's in October of 2026, the new Excellence Chronometer certification will come into operation and we'll start to see that designation for some brands.

12:03It'll be interesting to see who and which brands opt to try and achieve this. It's certainly not the most rigorous certification for chronometers, but it is certainly a step up a higher tier from their original certification. And it sort of gets cost back to a much more relevant position within the industry in terms of that certification standard. Okay, so that's it for the big business headlines this week. Now, let's have a listen to our interview with Federico Ziviani, the CEO of Gerald Charles.

13:00I am in Geneva at Gérald Charles at the atelier here, basically in downtown Geneva. I am with Federico Ziviani, who is the chief executive officer of Gérald Charles and has been in that role basically since 2019, when you kind of relaunched the brand in its current form. Thank you for joining me today, Federico.

13:29Federico Ziviani:Andy, it's a pleasure to welcome you to our home here in Geneva, in Rue de Mont Blanc 3. And I look forward to taking you through the history, the rich history of this family brand where I've been involved since I was very young, thanks to my father and my uncle. Excellent. Well, yeah, let's start with that. So, I mean, you know, this company, the brand is called the Gerald Charles. That comes from Gerald Genta, the, you know, arguably the most famous watch designer in history. Obviously, there is the Gerald Genta brand. Gerald Genta designed watches for many, many brands. Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, obviously.

14:13Tell me about the Gerald Charles brand, Gerald Genta's involvement with it, and you and your family's involvement, and how you came to be the owners and proprietors and executives of this brand.

14:32Federico Ziviani:I believe we need to start from the beginning of the history. Of course, Gerald Charles Genta, Charles was his middle name, was born in Geneva in 1931. And then in 1969, he founded his first brand, Gerald Genta, which he then sold to the Hourglass and then Bulgari acquired it. And this was about 1999. In 2000, Gerald Charles Genta decided to create his second brand using his first and middle name. Because he couldn't use his name because he had sold that brand name. Exactly. Sold the trademark, Gerald Genta. So he made an agreement back in the days to call the brand Gerald Charles on the dial, designed by Mr.

15:18Federico Ziviani:Gerald Genta with reference to the person and not to the brand, obviously. And Gerald was a good friend of my father in particular since the 80s. They met during the Montrebijoux exhibition, which my father was organizing from a marketing and events standpoint. So my father, Franco, got to know Gerald in 82. And then he started to work in marketing for the Geragenta brand in Italy, helping Gerald, launching back in the days the Jeffica Safari, an iconic model. And then in the 90s, he took over the distribution of Audemars Piguet in Italy, founding the first subsidiary, first Audemars Piguet SPA company in Italy, which he owned.

16:04Federico Ziviani:And he had his whole career, watch career in one brand. It's very rare today to see such a loyal connection with one brand for executives. And my dad started with AP in the 90s when the brand was much smaller in size than it is today. And he contributed actively to the growth of the brand until 2023 when he left the brand to join our family company, Gerald Charles. Yes, Gerald Charles, exactly. And then so let's go back to that beginning. So Gerald Genta then had sold his Gerald Genta brand to the Hourglass and then Bulgari and had restarted a different brand, his second brand, Gerald Charles.

16:49So tell us where your family comes into things.

16:53Federico Ziviani:Exactly. So because of the friendship relationship between my father and Gerald, Gerald came to my father when he created the brand in the beginning, asking him to help him. My father was involved in Audemars Piguet back in the days. He didn't have so much time, spare time. It was quite busy. But my uncle, Giampaolo, which is the brother of Franco, decided to join, becoming the general manager of Gerald Charles. And a few years after, the family proposed us to acquire the Gerald Charles brand with the stock, the rights over the drawings, and all the intellectual property of the brand. And then my dad asked Gerard, what are you going to do then if you sell me the brand?

17:37Federico Ziviani:And Gerard decided to stay as a designer, as creative director under a contract that lasted until 2011 when he passed away. Meaning that Gerard Charles, my family, owns the last 11 years of Gerard Charles Genta's designs and creations made for Gerard Charles in this time period. Like all the big artists, the heritage is always split across different entities. Like you said, he designed for many brands and he had his own brand. And what we own is the last 11 years, the last period of his creation. And can you tell me, I mean, what was the reason that General Genta decided or needed to sell the brand?

18:26You know, he potentially, I guess, needed some help business-wise. the brand perhaps wasn't doing as well as it could have at that time.

18:35Federico Ziviani:Absolutely, absolutely. These I know from the stories of my dad, how it was back then, and Gerald came seeking help and as well the family because it was, of course, not very profitable in terms of business. There were financial struggles from a business standpoint. The brand was not doing so well. There was probably not a clear strategy. There were a lot of creations, a lot of free flow of creativity from the artist. And my father and my family had experience in company building and management. And this is why they prefer to sell the company. And as we took over to manage it. Right. And Gerald Genta passed away in 2011.

19:22And I believe, you know, he was still involved with the company, but obviously was in ill health for those couple of years. So then what became of Gerald Charles, the company from, say, 2011 to 2019? And that's when you came in and stepped in the role that you're in now. But what was the company doing then? What kind of production, what kind of watches were they making? That kind of thing.

19:49Federico Ziviani:So we had a vast archive from which to pick the right watches for bespoke custom orders. So the brand, even before Genta passed away, was heavily oriented on bespoke, small series, so many different case shapes. Today most are familiar with the maestro shape, but there are so many shapes that, for example, you saw today in the museum. and many more that were made bespoke. And from 2011 until I joined the company, the main business model was bespoke, meaning no retailers, really not marketing, more special orders to global collectors. Right. So these were people who knew either Gerald Genta or his designs and probably had existing relationships.

20:42These are expensive, one-off, generally made-to-order pieces. And that was the size of the business. So very small production, but the company continued. And so tell me what happened in 2019 and what you were doing and how you came to be in this role to lead the company into its next phase and stage and what your plan was at that time.

21:11Federico Ziviani:I grew up in the watch world. I was really the school of the sidewalk, the real school, the life school, because when I was born in 1995, my father just founded Audemars Piguet Italy. And the only opportunity to see him really as busy as he was, was to spend time with him when he was maybe in Switzerland with clients, at dinners, at the manufacturer, at office. I remember having my chair in his office, you know, as a kid. So I always have liked to listen. And I listened, I absorbed so many information. I learned French before English because of that. I didn't learn in school. I learned it by spending time with some of the greatest figures of the watchmaking world back then, including Gerald, who I met a few times.

22:01Federico Ziviani:I had the privilege to do so. But of course, I was very connected to the Audemars Piguet world management and shareholding, which I had the honor to meet at a personal level for quite a while when I was young. And in this way, I built my taste for watches. I learned a lot. That was the best school because I was never forced to learn. And then my father always told me, choose your own path. You don't need to come in watches. You just need to do what you like. And I really loved technology. I really love it now as well. And so I was first in finance in London. I went to London to study there. And then I graduated at UCL, University College London in computer science.

22:49Federico Ziviani:So now I'm a software engineer. And my work experience has been mainly in software developments, operations, Salesforce, and all these kind of great softwares, which, by the way, helped me a lot as a young CEO to manage the operations of a company because I gained that operational understanding. and then I knew that Gerald Charles was always in the family and I loved it and I wanted to make like the perfect watch. Like I was never 1000 % happy with the watches that I could find in the market. I wanted something extremely elegant, but extremely wearable, lightweight and tough. I could only find tough sporty watches or delicate elegant watches.

23:36Federico Ziviani:I could never find elegant, tough watches. And this was, I would say, my interpretation of the brand, what then I developed in the years, you could see now, to get into the engineering. Yes, the legacy of Gerald is important, but our interpretation is also as important in terms of product. And I think that my IT background helped me a lot in wanting to push the boundaries a little bit further. Interesting. And so what was the catalyst for your decision to take over the brand and take it in this new direction? I mean, was there, as you say, you had a desire to, you know, bring to the market a different kind of watch, an elegant but robust lasting piece.

24:23So, you know, how did you do that with Gerald Charles and how did, you know, I presume you started very small because this was a brand that was really only selling bespoke pieces to private clients.

24:38Federico Ziviani:If I look back now, we went through a very steep run and it was quite fast as well. In six years, what I think we achieved. In the beginning, I wanted to do this in general charge. I was very young. I was in my early 20s. I was the youngest CEO in the industry back then. And I really wanted to express my passion. I was passionate about watches and I had my ideas. and I felt also responsibility because my family was entrusted by this responsibility, by purchasing the brand and just keeping the last 11 years of the Picasso of watches in a safe, I felt that was kind of a pity now for the watch collectors globally, where the responsibility to show creativity and to push this to a wider audience.

25:31Federico Ziviani:And this is what I did. So I started launching one edition the 20th anniversary edition back in 2019, beginning of 2020. And I wanted to release an entry-level watch to make it accessible at slightly above 10 ,000, very accessible to a wide audience of collectors. And this was a very big differentiation from the previous Bespoke model where pieces were extremely complicated and very high priced. so I went on a strong digital communication I built a digital campaigns I built a strong website and that community the digital community which I really believe could have delivered the message the true message of the watch the passion and the brand and this worked and since then I feel I've never worked a single day because I'm having a lot of fun especially for the product development is the part I enjoy the most maybe the most challenging is on the other side to manage the people and the team right that's the challenge how many people are you now now we're 40 people 40 people we went on a 10x growth we were four we moved to 40 so it was a big growth and talk about you know the operations the sort of organization we're here in geneva at the atelier i you know i i got to see one of your watchmakers here and see some of the pieces.

27:00But yeah, what does the infrastructure look like? Where are their locations and where are those 40 people?

27:08Federico Ziviani:The infrastructure is fast moving, as you can imagine, moving from four to 40 people in six years is not nothing with the COVID pandemic in the middle, especially. Right. So the company back in the days is a location in Ticino, near Lugano, in the Italian part of Switzerland. My family is originally from Milan, so this is where we decided to incorporate with Gerald to have a certain link with the Italian also sauerfer, which is great. Having nevertheless always kept the production, artisanal production, always in the French-speaking part of Switzerland, talking about Jura, Geneva, of course. So a strong part of the operations from a legacy standpoint being in Ticino.

27:51Federico Ziviani:And now we're slowly moving to Geneva. Two years ago was inaugurated the Atelier, taught for being the hub for complications development, where we have some engineers and very high level complications and the assembly and the finishing of the complications, while the other products are very much linked to Lugano for the time being. But of course, in the dynamic growth of the brand, we have strong plans for production ramp up in terms of internalizing a lot of métier d 'art, a lot of artisans techniques, which we are doing now for the complications that we will soon release. So I would say that Geneva will become more and more important as we introduce new complications in the product mix.

28:42Right. And I think, you know, you were saying before that first year you were basically a digital only company, but then all of a sudden COVID happened and everybody was a digital only company, which puts you on a nice sort of even ground with everybody else in terms of getting your message out. But you said you did about 200 watches that year, sold about 200 watches. Where are you now in production? And in terms of how that production happens, how should I think about it? I mean, is there an actual Gerald Charles manufacturer at this point? Or do you source components and, you know, through suppliers and assemble them and finish them and do things like that?

29:27What does it look like?