The Business of Watches [022] Maxime Couturier And Lorenzo Maillard Of The New Chronopolis Watch Fair

22:04Lorenzo Maillard:Exactly.

22:05Maxime Couturier:But yeah, they're all bringing something different. They're international as well. It's not about only Swiss brands or French brands. It's that we have Italian brands, American brand as well, and different price points. I think the spirit is the most important part is keeping the spirit alive between all of them and also distributing the same services to all of them. This was really important since the beginning. It's like, you don't, it's not about who has the biggest pocket gets the more services. It's really, they all have the same, I would say package and booth for the same price and it's really we divide to conquer and yeah the 20 brands will get the same features and it's their product that's going to shine and not necessarily the money they put on the table.

22:47Lorenzo Maillard:And how does it work? I mean they obviously they're paying a fee I mean you guys are running this I presume as a business yeah how does that work and does everybody pay the same or do you pay a different price to have more space how does it work?

23:02Maxime Couturier:So the idea was to be the most equal that we could. So basically, we aligned on a price that we couldn't go further. And basically, now it's just multiplied by 20, and we did everything that we could within that budget to make it work. And yeah, even the spots, because we know at Watches and Wonders, for instance, it's really important who is the first one where you are. So it was did in an ad hoc way. so really it's all about being equal there is no one that is like preferred or so on they all pay the same it was ad hoc so basically everybody had the space they had we did an online drawing and yeah so it was like a lottery

23:45Lorenzo Maillard:basically

23:46Maxime Couturier:and every booth is exactly identical to one another and that was really important as well since the beginning and all brands were completely aligned with the spirit that's probably one of the elements that also convinced them to join It's not about, yeah, who pays more to get more services and more visibility. We offer them the platform, the same for everyone, and then it's their product that's going to shine.

24:09Lorenzo Maillard:Exactly. And so when people come to the fair, to the show, they will see all the brands in the exact same size booths, to be fair. And they'll be able to, which is unusual, they'll be able to purchase watches. Will there be anything else, any events, any talks, any refreshments?

24:31Maxime Couturier:So it's a first and we pushed a lot with the budget we had to have a lot of features. And we invested a lot in the scenography as well. So we worked with Tom Duca Rouge, which is a really up and coming scenographer based in Paris, to develop each of the stands. So they're all custom made for the event, as well as the chairs and so on. So it was really important as well to have this kind of the storytelling aspect also going into the design of the space. And then in terms of things that's going to happen during the week, we have on the Thursday, the big chronopolis party. It's going to be nice.

25:08Maxime Couturier:A lot of people and it's open to the public. So if you're around, please don't hesitate to pass by. And on Friday, we have the Chrono24 cocktail. and as well on every day we have kind of an happy hour bar offering also to for all the people coming back from Watch the Mojures if they want to get a beer at a cool price and a cold beer they could they could get there talk to all the people around and really have this experience this kind of a chill experience of Chronopolis yeah for the first edition we really wanted to focus on what they needed and what they asked us was to have a booth to be equal and to have a space to share the novelties.

25:50Maxime Couturier:So instead of going in every direction and maybe losing ourselves, we really wanted to deliver on what they asked us. And so basically we have a lot of ideas. We tried a few things to enhance the experience, but this year we're all going to focus on this and grow it in the next year, hopefully, if it's a success. But Lorenzo started to mention about the partners that we have as well. We've been lucky enough to have a few partnerships. brands and medias. So it helped as well to increase the experience for the guests and all the public that are going to come.

26:27Lorenzo Maillard:And how long have you been sort of planning this and working on this? When did you decide that it was going to go forward? And then, you know, how much money is involved? How much does it cost to put on something like this? Can you, I mean, if you can give us any kind of idea.

26:42Maxime Couturier:It's in between 300 and a half a million, the overall budget for the overall fare and then with this budget we try our best to make it cool and unusual and keep the spirit alive so as Maxim says we've invested a lot for this first edition so it's not the best the most interesting financial project but it's not our goal our goal is to make it important for and visible for the brands and then if we can expand the concept further next year it would be even even better but yeah i would say when was it like this is a go i think we signed the 20 brands on before we wouldn't say yeah but we started to speak about it probably end of summer last year yeah yeah so it took a bit of time but basically yeah we had a few brands on board straight away and then we had to find and convince the the other ones but yeah we probably worked very hard on the projects in september we actually have hired someone to take care of the the fair.

27:45Maxime Couturier:Stéphane has joined us and he's full on on it since the first of this September. Sweating every day.

27:52Lorenzo Maillard:No doubt. No doubt. And so how many, so you guys, how many people have been working on this then full time? I would say Stéphane from

28:00Maxime Couturier:the office is working full time. Lorenzo and I are always working on all the projects so both of us and we have the scenography team. We have the content team as well so probably 10 people, around 10 people-ish. Yeah, yeah.

28:15Lorenzo Maillard:For sure. And do you have any idea of how many people you're expecting to visit? We're targeting for this first edition

28:22Maxime Couturier:at least a thousand people, a thousand visitors a day. We hope more. We're doing our maximum to have the space completely full every day, but it's going to be our challenge as well. So that's our target. Our, yeah, conservative target, I would say.

28:39Lorenzo Maillard:For sure, for sure. And, you know, let's talk about sort of that cooperation, this sort of idea of establishage in watchmaking. I think, you know, a lot of people outside the industry see the big brands. They see Rolex and Bittek and AP and the others who are obviously the flagships at watches and wonders. But, you know, this industry, and not just here in Switzerland, but in general, it's full of small little brands. And, you know, talk about how those brands and those various parts of the industry you know sort of need to work together to uh get their message out and that's a good point you mentioned switzerland but it's

29:20Maxime Couturier:actually really international markets a lot of brands are not from switzerland you know we're in in chronopolis but also elsewhere as soon as we announced 20 brands we had probably another 20 brands that wanted to join in unfortunately this year we we have to stay in this bracket and because of the location and because of other aspects of it. But I think, yeah, there's a real market rising in these more affordable, approachable brands. Some people call it micro-brands, but sometimes it's a bit pejorative or negative.

29:53Lorenzo Maillard:We're trying to use the term boutique brand. Boutique brand, yeah, boutique.

29:56Maxime Couturier:There's the maison and then the boutique. But yeah, I think they're rising. They're directly connecting with the consumers, which is more complicated for more established brands even in the same price points. And I think they offer something different. They really understand their customers because their relationship is way tighter. And yeah, I think they're bringing new ideas to the industry, pushing for crazy designs, and also some technical aspects that you're going to see at Chronopolis. A few brands are launching really cool complications as well. So pretty unusual in these price points. And a lot of people were saying that this price point is going to die slowly.

30:40Maxime Couturier:Right.

30:40Lorenzo Maillard:I mean, that's the overarching narrative is that the watch industry is just, you know, less volume, continuously getting more expensive and exclusive. But obviously, yeah, I mean, you know, these brands are certainly in the more, you know, some other brands I can name. Obviously, Ferlin Mari, a very popular brand with Houdinki readers, Formax, Serica. Yeah, I mean, these are brands that are approachably priced for the regular person, still not cheap objects. But indeed, that does go against the prevailing trend and the belief that everything is just moving more and more upscale. I mean, why is that important?

31:22Maxime Couturier:Well, since the beginning when we launched Iced Out, because it's really what is like the spirit of Vision with Lorenzo.

31:30Lorenzo Maillard:And Iced Out is your magazine. It's a very cool, awesome looking magazine that you guys put out a few times a year. And I mean, yeah, talk about what that is.

31:39Maxime Couturier:But first, you need to have the whole spectrum. Because like if you want to reach new people, which is something that even the flagship brands needs to do, you have to have the full spectrum and everybody in the scale has to do his own work. You know, sometimes you're going to go buy your first watch because you want a Cartier or Rolex. Fine. But maybe you can't afford such expensive watch and you're getting into the mechanics of the design through, as you said, Firoland, Denison, even cheaper alternatives, more design-led like Breda from the States. But what matters is really getting people into watches.

32:17Maxime Couturier:and that's how we see it. So Chronopolis is definitely a place where it's easy. People will not look at you in a different or weird way when you enter and it's maybe the clients of the big brands that watches and wonders in a few months. So for us, it's really an ecosystem that needs to work together and even big brands, they take something from smaller brands getting bigger and bigger. Absolutely. It's, as you say, a real ecosystem. It's kind of a spider web. Without these brands, probably the bigger could stay a long time in their castle. But at a certain point, it could be really dangerous also to talk to one specific audience and also getting their prices up and up.

33:06Maxime Couturier:At a certain point, you also kill yourself. So the system needs these levels and we need to open the doors to a wider audience. A lot of people say that watches are useless, and it's probably true. But we need to make it more fun, more accessible. And that's how we're going to keep the spirit alive of watchmaking. Otherwise, it's only reserved to a really exclusive club. And I think it's a bit lacking the passion and the potential of this industry. And, you know, competition is really also what drives everything. If you have a smaller brand that is selling a watch for less than a thousand francs with certain characteristics, it's good to put it aside to a big brand and say, so what did you do more to explain the gap?

33:51Maxime Couturier:You know, they're trying differently as well, pushing, and I think it's super healthy for everybody that you have smaller players.

33:57Lorenzo Maillard:No, exactly. Does it say, though, something that, you know, the flagship brands, the big brands that we see at Watches and Wonders or the other shows, are they missing out on an opportunity or are they not connecting with that, you know, younger audience or that new to Watches audience? I mean, yeah, do they have something to learn from you guys?

34:21Maxime Couturier:We all have something to learn from each other, but I think what's tough for these big brands is they become, some of them became too big. It's really complicated to them to target and have a real human connection with their potential customers. And that's probably what's, where lies the danger for these big brands. Of course, they can spend a lot of money in advertising and being everywhere visually, but then how do you connect with people? And that's what the next generations are looking for, the real connection and feeling really appreciated. And yeah, really connect with the designer, the people behind the watches and the product.

34:57Maxime Couturier:So this is the challenge for these big brands. They're trying. Some of them are really success in targeting these new audiences, but others are struggling as well.

35:06Lorenzo Maillard:And, you know, this is what you guys do. I mean, tell me, how do you bring new people, young people into watches? Because, I mean, yeah, as you say, a watch is not something that anybody needs to tell time, but there are certainly other reasons to want it, to desire it and to wear it. But, you know, from the young cool guy's perspective, I mean, yeah, how do you get people into watches? There are probably several tricks that we use often.

35:34Maxime Couturier:but one of the first ones is probably using other universes like design or photography or art to bring people that are maybe more inclined into design or fashion for instance and to work and collaborate with people that are from this world to bring them in. The second one is probably to say that it's okay not to know everything about watches because it's like a scary thing. It's like, oh, you don't get it. It's a super complex object. That's why it's expensive and so on. We just try to demystify this. And probably the last thing is that it's a very deep culture as well. And that's why we always try to show that there are nerves, that there are so many archives, so many interesting to learn, just to show them to the new people that actually if you get into it, it's almost impossible to know anything.

36:25Maxime Couturier:And so it's where the fun is. It's like you have to discover a whole world, new players, new brands, new models, new designers it's so interesting, it's a culture on its own. Yeah and sometimes we also forget the fun aspect of it all, we need to have fun otherwise why are we doing this why are we collecting, why are we getting interested into watches. There's a serious aspect that came with luxury that also is dangerous somehow so that's why these new players are also pushing and we are trying as well with iStyle as well as to make it a bit more relaxed and fun and welcoming the product are already really technical really interesting on its own so the communication could really be more simple more fun, more unusual and that's how we also target these people, like giving them a hint and then they do their trajectory in this game but yeah, let's not take ourselves too seriously, that's important and probably a few brands know it and others don't really know it yet, so yeah

37:26Lorenzo Maillard:Because you guys have your hands in a lot of pies in the watch world here in Switzerland, right? So, you know, you do Iced Out, the magazine, you have your agency, or you work with various brands and partners, and now you're doing this. So, you know, talk about each one of those aspects of your work and how much time you're spending on that and what you guys together hope to contribute to the industry at the moment. It's a tough one.

37:57Maxime Couturier:It's a multi-layer question. Well, I think that Iced Out is really what brought us together. That's actually we met through the FHH with Lorenzo. We launched the Instagram account, Watches and Culture. And actually it was really how we linked because it was speaking about watches to a different audience, which is exactly what we try to do now. And we wanted to push it further. That's why we did Iced Out. so we had our hands completely free and we could probably go too far sometimes. So Iced Out is really our spirit. That's our baby. That's why we try to protect and we try to challenge ourselves while doing it because we are so much part of the industry now.

38:40Maxime Couturier:It's like, what does it mean to be iced out of ourselves as well? To have fun. The agency is how we pay our bills, probably. We try to keep a bit of the spirit of Iced Out, but that's where we serve the brands and maybe listen to them a bit more, try to serve them. And then Chronopolis is an extension of the agency. It's the same thing, but in a different kind of channel. You can find some of the ice-tout spirit in it, but it's of course more not commercial because it's kind of a negative word as well, but it's a bit more straightforward for the customers and less crazy than other projects that we do.

39:19Lorenzo Maillard:And for those who haven't maybe seen it or don't know it that well, explain the name Iced Out. It's quite clever. It's sort of a play on someone, you know, from Switzerland or France might say, I guess, Iced Out, you know, when we talk about watches that are full of diamonds and bejeweled, as it were.

39:40Maxime Couturier:Yeah, it's also a play on war with heist, like a robbery, because at the beginning we wanted to heist the communication part of the watch industry somehow and make it a bit different and steal some ideas and make it more fun and come out of this robbery in a sense. So it's a bit of a strange name that we keep it because it's part of us. It's the spirit. It's also getting out of this box. We all living in the watch world. Yeah, breaking the barriers and pushing the doors as well. Getting out of it. It was also interesting because Ice Out is really also the rappers that are saying this, their watches.

40:23Maxime Couturier:And most of the time it's done on poorly conditioned watch. So there is also a layer of people who don't understand the watch world. They just put diamonds on them and actually maybe they were not so good before. And so there is this misunderstanding and this kind of discrepancy between the two worlds that is quite interesting to the philosophy and what we try to do with Iced Out.

40:44Lorenzo Maillard:Indeed. And, you know, within your circle, I think of you here in Geneva. I mean, what is it that brings young people and gets them interested in watches? I mean, you know, talk about your sort of circle of colleagues and friends and how they all, you know, came to this crazy world.

41:03Maxime Couturier:Yeah, it's always the spirit and also trying to be a bit different. People want to feel a bit different. So they want to, you know, get their hands on unusual watches, watches that we don't necessarily see. That's why these design watches are really getting up in values and recognition in this industry. so yeah it's also yeah being part of a crew being part of a community but that's always a fine line between a community and also an exclusive club so it's also our work to make sure that it's always open through our events and other activities that we do so that's always important and people want to relate to it somehow so they want to feel different so they want to touch other kind of products and yeah yeah a lot of our friends are actually watch dealers so we get to see a lot of amazing watches and I think me I wasn't born here so it's a bit different I wasn't at all part of the watch industry our watches weren't even a thing in my family or in my friends and when I arrived and I joined in with Lorenzo and all his friends and my friends now there is this sense of discovering and showing new things that you found yeah that is so exciting It's like, oh, look what I found.

42:17Maxime Couturier:I actually researched it and I found out that this. Then you meet someone from a patrimony team that will tell you, oh, actually, I've never seen this one. He shows you another one. So it's an endless cycle that is so interesting. Yeah, and we say it a lot, but it's not always a question of age. You know, we're old already. And I think a lot of people in the community we're trying to build are, it's not a question of age. It's more of a spirit. A lot of people are a lone wolf from the industry and they connect with us and the rest of our friends because they feel the passion behind it and they feel the no bullshit approach that we want to push forward.

42:56Maxime Couturier:So this is also really important. It's not a question of age. It's more the spirit, definitely. And of course, vintage. We would lie if we say that vintage is not important to our eyes and also to all of our friends and the building. the community we're building. It's important in Iced Out, of course, we're pushing for novelties and we're working with watch brands, but vintage is definitely beating in our heart and it also leads a lot of the projects we do.

43:26Lorenzo Maillard:Very good, very good. And so the show Chronopolis runs from April 14th to 18th at Les Arts de Lille here in Geneva every day from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. It says, anything else we need to know about this? Best of luck with it. Thursday, we'll have a little

43:48Maxime Couturier:I start surprise for you around 8-ish. And really, we want people also outside from the industry or at least people not working in the industry to be part of it. It's how it's going to get even funnier and more cooler culture. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Push the doors. I mean, the door is going to be open, so you don't even need to push them. Grab a beer, talk to the CEOs and the creators behind the watches and potentially leave with one on the wrist. So, yeah, don't be afraid of getting into this crazy and stupid watch world. Yeah, and Lorenzo said it in an interview at some point. He said that go look for the watch that you think you don't like and that's how you're going to discover so many things.

44:33Maxime Couturier:And like you have 20 brands, you have time, you can browse through the 20 even though you think that you don't yeah and go see maybe someone that you feel like you don't like and maybe that's how when you're gonna fall in love you know surprise yourself yeah

44:49Lorenzo Maillard:excellent sounds like a plan best of luck with the show gentlemen thank you Andy see you Maxime and Lorenzo thanks so much we'll see you soon thank you bye bye bye bye

45:03Lorenzo Maillard:and that's the business of watches for this episode. We hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to hodinky.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows, we might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

45:36Thank you.