The Business of Watches [031] Roy Davidoff (Geneva Vintage Watch Dealer And Collector)

28:13Roy Davidoff:And so that's where you see the collector interest. But are you also saying, though, that people are discovering value there or seeking value there, underappreciated? It's underappreciated. You get an old, I mean, underappreciated. Today, people are asking crazy prices, really crazy prices. But the fact remains that there's still value in there. Are there any, you know, other sort of mainstream vintage and neo-vintage pieces, brands, categories? I mean, yeah, it's quite interesting and you're quite specific in terms of that Holy Trinity and add Breguet in there and maybe a few other names. But yeah, I mean, you know, Vintage Hoyer, Omega, are there any brands like that you think that are due for a resurgence or a return in interest?

29:04Roy Davidoff:And then Cartier is a whole separate story. Cartier is a separate story. Markets are cyclical. I for sure know that in a couple of years, people are going to start having their journey again, collecting all the icons of Hoyer, the Ottavias, the Carreras, the Monacos. We saw one of the last Monaco's from Le Mans that was on Steve McQueen's wrist. What was it? From the movie Le Mans, right? Exactly. One of the last prop watches or watches that were used in the Le Mans movie went out for auction. Didn't do as well as hoped. It's okay. It still went up for auction. It was seen. There was some documentation about it.

29:47Roy Davidoff:The provenance was very strong. Yeah. That's really, really cool. you have also in Breitling which is but these are more you realize that they made thousands of them like you know if people say like a 1518 they made 258 or 250 something that's it so you know that this is a finite number and that's all you know that's all ever made and then there's different variations but like other brands they made like they made like a thousand or thousands with like a first generation then like 10 ,000 second generation this was more mainstream so again if you understand uh and and then for example a paddock philippe you take it to the to the shop where you have your watchmaker open it you send it for archive they tell you it's correct it was born with uh this white dial or this silver dial this black dial this whatever color dial um it was yellow gold rose gold it gives you all the information the other brands you can't tell if the dial was changed you can't tell if parts were swapped as a regular collector They come to people like us and many of the dealers in our network that we work with to check or to buy without having to worry about it.

30:56Today, for example, I was speaking with a dear friend from a Geneva-based brand and he tells people, it's not always good to find cheapy watches at these little-known auctions. Because when you have the watch in your hands and it's going to cost you like$3 ,000 to repair the watch, you save$1 ,000 compared to a dealer. but then you're$2 ,000 on hold because most dealers should provide a warranty. And the watch has already been cleaned, it's been checked, the watchmaker, like every watch that we get, for example, we have it checked, either a paddock we order in archives and every other brand we check with the brand.

31:30We have our watchmaker open it, check it, time it, all the numbers matches, everything is on the...

31:36Roy Davidoff:We can't do this with every brand and obviously, you know... We nearly can. No, not really. Well, talk to me about, you know, Rolex and CPO and as a vintage dealer. I mean, you know, I don't think I've ever heard you articulate, you know, what Rolex CPO means for the market and how it's changed things and how we should think about it. Very simply, Rolex saw how well dealers are doing. We might be known, but we're still not that big. but you have some dealers that move like thousands of rolexes a month it's crazy and rolex like why can't we do that and i see how much they're asking for their cpos compared to regular watches but regardless if there are service parts you are sure that they were installed by rolex right so it gives you this additional trust but it takes away from the originality that we like for example when When you buy a vintage car, you want to buy a car that has like 10 ,000, 20 ,000 miles.

32:41You don't want to buy a car that has 200 ,000 miles. Because if it's 200 ,000 miles, you understand that everything is tired. And if something breaks, something else will break after. But if you buy a low mileage car, you have a lot less trouble. Just change the oil. And if it wasn't crashed, you're good to go for another 10, 20 years. This is really different with vintage wristwatches. when you buy something that hasn't been abused you can get a long life out of it but if you buy a watch that has like you can notice see that it has like 300 000 miles or 400 000 miles you know that it's funny when i see people that bring watches like speed masters in for service and they come back with like a baggie with like a hundred parts inside and i'm like what happened to your watch and they're like they had to change everything because everything was tired compared to like you bring a watch that's like super clean, never been serviced.

33:33They'll throw in there like maybe the hands because they were stuck and then like one wheel and one gasket. So you know that didn't change anything. So this is why we try to, every watch we buy, we try to buy a low mileage timepiece.

33:49Roy Davidoff:And, you know, I just saw you this week in Le Chaudufon, Neuchatel at the Cartier Young Watchmakers Prize, which was taking place. You were on the jury. You were a judge. Tell us about that process and this whole prize and where we are in terms of, you know, young people and being interested in watches and learning the profession and learning the skill. So the thing I want to say now is that young people are the future. are you saying children are the future no young people are the future children are just uh there's something else uh no point being is i had the opportunity now 2024 i was approached by somebody that works for cartier uh become a dear friend as well he's like oh we're doing this uh cartier prize would you like to be a member of the jury and i was like i don't know what this is but yes.

34:46And then I got I got to the first jury meeting and here you had Carrie Voutilainen Pascal Ravsou which I knew quite well. From the FHH. Yes. Nathalie Marianoly who's associate curator of the MEH Yeah, the museum. Yeah, Museum of Horology and Pascal Lepeux who's in charge of the Cardi collection.

35:11Roy Davidoff:For Carcher. And then me. I was like what am I doing here? I'm like other than being very opinionated I'm like I don't know what I'm doing here but it was a lot of fun so we meet all these young you know there's there's two different yeah there's there's apprentices and technicians there's two categories and what's really fantastic is to see with the limited amount of time that they have 80 hours I think 85 hours to actually you know produce the piece and the limited budget that they have I find that to be mind-blowing what they're able to produce some of them i was like i wish i was able to give the price to like not just one like many of them because as i come from the manufacturing background i understand how difficult it is to do multi-medium things you know when you see a watch today that's a complication that's gem set that's enamel that's from a high-end finishing on the movement and skeletonized, all these things separately are amazing.

36:15And having two, three, four, or five of them, it's really the best thing in the world.

36:18Roy Davidoff:And this usually means, and there's several different artisans that have done each of those facets. Exactly. And in some of these cases, these kids have done the whole thing. Sometimes, you know the term établisseur? Yeah. This is the way we describe the various facets, suppliers, component makers of the industry and how it all comes together exactly so some of the some of these kids what they do is actually quite good is that they also they're able to be like oh my father works with marble and is able to do a marble part of the clock i can put inside he goes oh my friend knows how to do a 3d printing she can 3d print some parts and then all my friends are jeweler and she can make me like gem set little things and like all my friend is this and i'll and it's it's quite fascinating somebody had a stained glass clock that was floating in the shape of a crash from cartier i was like this is this is crazy and i was like ah i think i wish you know i mean uh it was really really cool and they're like oh i know somebody who does that right so that and that mirrors the the so while they're working on one part of the project they have somebody else working on that also it basically like and and this skill of being able to be like okay, I can do this by myself, but I'm going to need the help for ABCD.

37:40It's like Hasman Manon. Hasman Manon, for example, they can produce the parts, they can decorate the part, they can assemble, regulate the parts to make their watches. But the cases, they leave it to somebody else. Exactly, yeah. That's, and then the case.

37:55Roy Davidoff:Almost nobody does everything. I mean, even Rolex doesn't do everything. So they're very often financially invested into their suppliers. Yes, they are. So you could say that they do everything. It's like Kari, Kari Woutilainen. He owns the whole process, movement, dial, case, Recep. He owns the whole process. Pretty much. I mean, he's an enamel, enameler. He's a case maker. Strap maker now. Strap maker now. You know, so he, this is, and this is what's so beautiful about the industry is you're going to have certain people say, I know how to make movements. I'm going to make the movements and decorate them the best way possible.

38:40And then other ones are like, I don't like how this case was made. I'm going to figure out how to make the best cases. And then in the case of Recep, pun intended, he was able to take out a retirement. Yes. Hagman. Yes. Give him a fifth or sixth career.

38:59Roy Davidoff:Yeah. Chipie Hagman. Yeah. Yeah. And he was able to pass on the case-making knowledge. And now that's what they're doing. Basically, he was able to create a physical legacy for the best case-maker of the 20th century. Interesting, yeah. A quarter century after he retired. Yes, and he brought him back. And now, obviously, his most recent piece, they made the case. But it's not, you know, Mr. Hagman died last year, I guess it was. And that knowledge has been passed on. But this is so important. You know, the same thing I remember when Jean-Claude Biver took over Hublot and wanted to bring it up in quality, there weren't enough watchmakers.

39:40So his idea was to take watchmakers out of retirement. And I'm like, that is brilliant. Did you know about that? I did not. He took watchmakers out of retirement because they had the knowledge and they're sitting at home telling the thumbs. Right. So it's this is, you know, at the same time we're speaking about young watchmakers who are either going to do everything by themselves. And whether they're apprentices or technicians or and they have the knowledge skill or they know where the skills are, which is a skill itself. it's very interesting when you when you see that like they're 17 18 19 20 years old when i was 20 i knew how to sell watches i knew where to go clubbing and my mom did my laundry and technically they're like reinventing the way we see time they're they're thinking outside the box they're seeing what has been done and they're they're like okay i saw this and i want to bring the time back so i'm going to change the gear the gear train and make my watch go backwards yeah even though it has been done but usually these brands spend like 18 months inrd and they

40:49Roy Davidoff:did it in 80 hours yeah no it was really interesting i mean the prompt i guess you know one of the prompts was to consider uh you know different ways of telling the time the exact prompt was changing the balance reading and understanding time differently yes so that's one of the reasons why one person won first prize and that's one reason why another person didn't win first prize but some of the skills and the multi-medium skills yeah no i was impressed it was it was you know my first exposure and the actual prize has been around for 28 years they've you know and carj has been quite uh hasn't you know really communicated they're now they're stepping it up and now they and now they are stepping up and next year they're also going to do it with jewelry.

41:34Roy Davidoff:Yes. Yes, they are, which is obviously a key element of that maison. They are a jewelry maker. And considering how long you've been around these two, we're talking about young watchmakers who are learning the skills and developing ways to express themselves and ideas through those skills. I mean, what is your sense of where watchmaking is in the culture as a whole? You know, I mean, the auctioneers talk about how much bigger the market is. I mean, obviously there was the COVID and post-COVID era where everybody in the world seemed to be interested in watches. But, you know, where are we with watchmaking and watches in culture?

42:21Roy Davidoff:And what's your outlook for the future? So I'm going to tell you, I had an apprentice that was 14, 15 years old. His great-grandfather and grandfather worked with my grandfather and father. I actually know his uncle, his mom's brother, from when I was young. And we started talking and I was like, come do an internship with us. And then at the same time, people tell me, oh, young kids don't care about wristwatches anymore. and i was like how wrong you are i remember when i used to wear a panerai in the late 90s which was cool eight hundred dollars for it yeah it was like one of the it was a single digit uh pam tritium dial people were like i don't know what the sandwich this is like and i was and i lived in an affluent uh circle and didn't understand what it was fathers people the adults had one, two, three watches.

43:25Today, when you come in an affluent area, if you have a watch, some of these people have like 50, 100 watches. It is not 10 times more. It's sometimes 50 times more than it used to be. And you see this younger generation that they see, you know, I remember you would see like the Bill Gates wearing like the cheapy Casio and you would see like leaders of enterprise wearing like regular watch. Bill Clinton wore an Iron Man.

44:01Roy Davidoff:Yeah. They would wear like a basic watch for like 10 years. The watch would look the same. And then you see like the new, the second generation leaders of enterprise and then all the leading men on TV, old school leading men. Again, you could see them wearing like their one or two or maybe three watches. You know, you would say like Like, you know, when you think of like Paul Newman, for example. Sure. Rather famous in the watch world. Very famous in the watch world. How many watches do you see him wearing? There's a few, but not that many. You know, maybe with our, maybe 10. I think if you can get to 10, you're lucky.

44:38Yeah. I mean, you know. Steve McQueen, how many watches did he wear?

44:43Roy Davidoff:Maybe is it four or five? Yeah. Under 10 again. Yeah. Today, every time you see a picture of Timothee Chalamet on anything, he's wearing either an ultra-modern watch, a vintage Ubergensen or modern Ubergensen or a different version of the crash. You see these people, you know, I see sometimes I have clients and friends that collect all across the board. And every six months, they're buying themselves another Jacob watch. because my friend works for Jacob so she's always telling me like oh he bought this you know like because on the Instagram that she shows me but he also buys everything else you know you you see I have it's it's really become for example how many watches you have Andy well that's that's a very personal question but I have I have at least 40 or 50 watches yeah and someone a journalist let's say you're in the watch business but it's different but let's say 40 years ago how many watches would you have had uh well i would it would have been how like how many watches i had before i started covering watches which is like two yeah so i grew up no but again i grew up keeping i had like i like my my family quote-unquote watches yeah and then i always had like two three watches and then today it's like every time i'm like okay this watch can hold 20 watches as soon as this watch box is full, I'm stopping to collect and then I just buy more watch boxes.

46:15Roy Davidoff:Last thing, I mean, we're talking about young people, we're talking about the future of the industry. You deal in, you know, high-end luxury vintage and neo-vintage watches, but what's your sense of how the industry can succeed and how it should, you know, go forward in watches being approachably priced and, you know, still being objects of desire. You know, for example, I would love to hear your take on the Royal Pop, the Audemars Piguet by Swatch collaboration. Yeah, I mean, how does the industry deal with, you know, prices and affordability? Can I tell you something funny? When the Moon Swatch came out, everybody and their mother had one on the wrist i don't know i remember i still i i basically gave away half the ones i have i only kept either the snoopies or the blue ones everything else is gone gifts right my my little cousins are very happy and other friends as well a friend comes over and it's like oh it's really cute i'm like here gift i'm like i don't i'm not gonna wear it i don't have time to sell it i don't care point being i have never seen a royal pop in the wild i have yet to see one as well in the wild i've seen one but no no i've seen them at the shop in the display i have never seen one in the wild but is that because but where would you see it i don't right because you don't wear it on the wrist so i was really excited because uh swatch teased us really well they put a lanyard they put the click and they put the pattern of the royal oak dial and they said the royal pop or the royal whatever or pop whatever they they used it and i was like oh it's going to be like a charm and i had my bag right there and i was looking forward to having a the blue one to put out on my on my briefcase right and i don't care i don't need it did not make a difference.

48:20But I've, again, I've yet to see when the Blanc Pain came out, I would see them in a while. The Fifty Fathoms,

48:29Roy Davidoff:yeah. Yeah, the Fifty Fathoms. I see them with all the little dragons and all that stuff, the sea creatures from the different oceans and I still see them in the wild. Yeah. I have yet to see a Royal Pop in the wild. So for me, other than green... We certainly saw what happened on the day when they went on sale, though. Yes, but it was 100 % speculators on the first day. Collectors don't behave that way. There is always a code or respect or whatever you call it. And for me, it's not negative. It's not positive. It just is. People always ask me like, oh, do you want to sell your Royal Oak now that they came there without?

49:09I'm like, listen, if they had made a bracelet watch, I'd be pissed. But I knew they weren't. So I wasn't pissed at any time. I want one. And that's where it ends. That's that there isn't anything more than that. It's a collab like they did with the museum. It's a collab like they did with Snoopy, with the Keith Haring, with, you know, I'm a big fan, for example, of Chagall. One of my good friends is also. So I got her for her birthday. I got her the Chagall one. You know, it's like another friend. He likes Basquiat. So I got him the set from Basquiat. you know it's it's all these things are it's just swatch just just does collabs because that's one of their core businesses is collabs it just this collab people felt it was weird but the pop swatch i used to have in the 80s and i loved it i used to wear it on my clipped on my t-shirts i don't know how many holes i put on those but again it doesn't you know it's it's not like a there isn't a for me anybody who sees a negative impact is looking for something negative right they're not i i like to i have very strong opinions about things and sometimes they'll be like a strong and sound

50:22Roy Davidoff:negative but i'm always going to try to find the good first sure and so so what you know other than than swatch and a swatch collab that speaks to someone i mean what's your um your recommendation for, you know, somebody's first watch, say sub thousand francs or dollars. All right. We're going to play that game, but we're going to play it to the end. So my favorite, my one of my, actually one of my, one of my, because there are multiple of them, favorite sub 1000 watch. My favorite one's going to be the PRX. Tiso PRX, great watch. Which I basically wore probably a dozen times showing up to AP, showing them this dial is better than your dial.

51:08While owning already two real looks with the same blue dial. Interesting. Until I sold it to a friend who wanted to have an access watch and I was like, I don't wear, I have too many watches to wear so I started selling off all the little ones. Another watch is Follin-Marie,

51:22Roy Davidoff:the Mecca Quartz. Follin-Marie, yeah. Fantastic watch. Great watch. Sub 1000. Great young guy. Baltic. Yeah. Fun watches. Yeah. I really prefer from the earlier ones. now they're they have to they have to grow so they have to do things yeah and they're getting a little more you know there's not a lot under that under that thousand they're alone yeah sub 2000 sub 2000 tell me sub 2000 my absolute favorite brand this last three or four years has been Raymond Wow interesting yes lately they came out with the ART yep which I was like people are like oh it looks like this they're integrated bracelet they were like oh and this and that I'm like it's sub 2000.

52:03They're like, what? I go, I want to get one. And I was like, why? It's two seconds though. You were like bitching about it. And now you're like, it's a cool watch. I'm like, yeah. They came out with their Toccata vintage.

52:14Roy Davidoff:Toccata, yeah. Very nice. Fantastic watch. Manual wound, beautiful blue dial. And before that, they came out with the Melesim, which I happened to see in pre, pre, pre, preview. When they were still in development, I was like, this is going to kill it. and then basically they won the GPHT with that. They did. A few months later. Yeah. So those three watches individually would kill it. This one brand has all three at the same time. Okay. Sub 5 ,000. So sub 5 ,000, you have quite a big choice. I tell people to either buy entry-level vintage, like a Speedmaster at that point. Yeah, you can get a Speedy Pro 5 ,000.

52:58You couldn't before, but now you can. You still can. from three and a Swiss francs, three and a half to maybe 5 ,000, a nice PD Pro, tritium or not.

53:06Roy Davidoff:Yeah. Sub 5 ,000, a perfect one is going to be more, but they're one that's clean and wearable for another 50 years. Sub 10 ,000, it becomes more difficult because the choices widen. I try to send, I try for me, Cartier is where it's at right now. Stainless steel Cartier, you have every stainless steel model is below 10 ,000. Yes, barely, but yeah. Yeah, you have the Tank Saint-Tréis below, it's like 6 ,000, 7 ,000. You have the Tank Quartz, which are like 3 ,000, 3 ,500. You have the Steel Santos, that was like 7 ,000. Yeah, but they're getting up there. Yeah, and the new titanium one, I believe, is...

53:47Yeah, but that's just like, I can make a fun titanium watch because I can. This isn't in the DNA of Cartier whatsoever. however titanium isn't but they're making a fun watch and a lot of people are like they don't want that a clunky watch because it's still a bit heavy and titanium they love it and then once you go into like the sub 15 sub 20 retail you have all the rolex models and then once you pass the the 20 marks you can get any cool vintage watch you can get like a perpetual calendar from ap a simple model you can get uh sub 30 you can also get the vastron one you can get sometimes even annual calendars from Patek Philippe under 20 ,000 Swiss francs or at 20 ,000 Swiss francs.

54:32Yes, 50, 35. I've sold them for like 19, 5.

54:35Roy Davidoff:Right. Right. Recently. Interesting. Maybe now they're like 21, but it's still, you're getting a lot of value for the money you can get for like around 30 ,000. You can get more elaborated perpetuals and even bregays. You can get under 20. I'm trying to mention again, some fantastic pieces. Today, for example, this is going to be self-promotion, but I want to self-promote one watch today. You've given us all this time, indeed. You have the license. For like 36 ,000 Swiss francs, you can get a solid gold full set Breguet Tourbillon. Crazy. From what era? Basically, it's the architecture from the Roth era.

55:19And it's the same architecture as Daniel Roth, where very intelligently he realized early on that one of the wheels was going to cover the tourbillon cage. So he moved all the hour indication and a smaller counter at 12 o 'clock. That's why Breguet and Roth had the same look. Yeah. And it became an iconic way to have the tourbillon. if you look at all the other tourbillons from the 80s and 90s, other than the AP ones, which were, the first two were a bit weird, and then the later ones were all standard, like Vacheron. You always have this one wheel below the hour and minute hands that's covering part of the tourbillon cage that drives me crazy.

56:01But, but, no, the Breguet, that's fantastic.

56:07Roy Davidoff:Interesting. Okay, I'm not going to let you go. We're not going to go through every category. Yeah, no, no, I think we're done. Well, you know, money is no object. What is the ultimate grail for you? What is, you know, end game watch? What is that? So funny enough, a watch that the dial resembles the most to Royal Pop. Hmm. Hmm. I like that. Hmm. Is the Manoebri Peter Royal Oak from AP. because it has a sub-second that looks just like the royal pop. And this is one of my, you know, wear under your sleeve. Nobody knows what it is. And you can activate the repeater. And then there's nothing on the dial that tells you how important that watch is because the slide is on the left side.

56:52So it's really, really incognito.

56:54Roy Davidoff:It's still a royal oak, but indeed, yeah, you don't know what kind of royal oak. It's the only royal oak that doesn't look like an expensive royal oak unless you see the slide and you recognize the sub dial. Other than that, of course, you know, I would love one day to have a Dufour, a Kari, a Recep, many other independents. It's no money I would, but again, I want to be able to wear my watches and I want to be able to be like, I can't leave my shop with this on my wrist. I want to be able to be I can leave my shop with this on my wrist yeah exactly anything else we should know about what's coming up for you and the business in the near future so we're trying to grow we're trying to grow we're figuring out ways to grow which right now it's a bit difficult but we have things brewing business wise we're quite happy because we've been really sourcing very well some important watches today again I'm going to be a shameless plug we have a fantastic grand complications by AP which is Grand Senerie Carrion one of five with open case pack this is really a watch that I put somebody I came in the shop and putting on my wrist would be like oh look at this cool watch and I was like and I looked at it and I was like can I buy it and he was like that wasn't the plan and I was like no no no I want to I want to I want to own and sell this like I you know it's like it like it like touched me deep because you see the dial is finished like a breguet dial it feels like it feels like carrie was involved in uh in this is a julio de mar from the early 2000s and then we did really well we bought a bunch of model this is in the last couple of uh the last year year and a half and they've been like flying off the shelves uh we just have we have one which is quite important.

58:52We're asking an obnoxious price for it, but it is, according to my research, the earliest double signed ever made. And a double signed with who? Gubelon.

59:06Roy Davidoff:Ah, with Gubelon. Yeah. Okay. So we're asking a very strong price because, I mean, we need to sell it, but I don't care about if I sell it. I love the watch. One day, someone's going to come in and be like, okay, I'll make you an offer that I can't refuse. but until then, I'm like, no, this is a fantastic watch. And last thing, I mean, for any collector, is there any bit of concise, I mean, you know, some people say buy what you love. So I have my three rules. I have my three rules. Let's have your three rules. My first rule is condition, condition, condition. If you buy a new watch, it's besides the point, but when you buy a vintage, it needs to be perfect dial, perfect case, perfect movement.

59:45Second rule is buy what you love. don't care what people tell you like oh you should buy this you could walk in you fall in love with it you're like i didn't know i needed this buy what you love and the third rule i tell people that say buy within your budget if you have a budget of like 8k and you can spend nine it's okay but don't buy a 20k watch so these are the three rules besides the fact that trust by the seller. But that's universal rules, not my rule.

1:00:15Roy Davidoff:Very good. Roy Davidoff, thank you for joining us on The Business of Watches. Andy Hoffman, thank you very much.

1:00:26Roy Davidoff:And that's The Business of Watches for this episode. We hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to hodinky.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows? We might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and see you next time.

1:01:09Thank you.