Anna Jones: Why Home Is an Act of Care

0:00If these recipes aren't being cooked in my home kitchen, they cease to be the things I want them to be. I wanted a calm space to cook in and this to me feels really calm. For me to have creative thoughts and have the space to think I need expanses of space. I remember making a decision as a little kid that I had to be strong, that I had to be there to support my parents, that I couldn't unravel I think it's a really big thing for a 10 year old to decide and I have in a lot of ways become the sort of steady one in my family The things that have happened in this house are going to be some of the most formative moments and most important things that will ever happen to me and will ever happen to the four humans that live here.

0:56It feels part of us.

1:02Hello there, welcome to a new episode of Homing. I'm Matt Gibbard. Today I've come to East London to visit the chef and writer Anna Jones. Anna began her career working alongside Jamie Oliver, before becoming one of Britain's best-loved food writers in her own right. Her cookbooks have inspired many families, I know, to eat more healthily, certainly including my own as well. I've got pretty much all of her books, I think. Fittingly, we recorded this conversation in her kitchen, which is where she develops new recipes and, of course, cooks for her own family. But this conversation, I think, is really about care.

1:42We talk about growing up in a close-knit family, how food became a way for a shy child to express herself, and how losing her closest family friends in the Lockerbie Air disaster instilled a lifelong instinct to be the dependable one in her family. We explore motherhood, postnatal depression, and the pressure to hold everything together. and we also talk about what happens when caring for other people leaves too little room to care for yourself. I found Anna incredibly warm and easy to talk to and I really did enjoy meeting her. So here it is, homing with Anna Jones. Hi Anna. Hey. Thanks so much for having us here.

2:28Oh it's just lovely to have you. Yeah it's really good to be here. So I'd like to start by going back to your childhood where did you grow up I was born in Birmingham and I spent a couple of years there um and then a few formative years in California um so my dad is one of 12 children he's number nine out of 12 um and kind of the matriarch of our family was my auntie Avril who's not with us anymore but she lived in America and we kind of followed her there and she sort of lived this magical brilliant sort of free life in California um so we lived there for a few years I was quite young and I went to nursery there but I feel like it was quite a sort of formative thing for me because you know there was sunshine there was amazing produce there was kind of this quite free way of being and I loved it there I loved it there and I've had quite a draw back there ever since.

3:30So yeah, we were there for a few years. And then we kind of came back to England, to London, and then we settled just outside London in Surrey, basically. What age were you then? I was only about sort of five, I think, when we came back. But we spent every summer back in California with my auntie. So even though I was quite young, when I came back it sort of felt it it feels like it was a really big part of my childhood that's interesting um yeah so if if I ask you where home was then when you were a child where was it it was it was my mom and dad's house in Surrey for sure and they're still in that house they still live there and yeah that was a lovely it was a lovely house to grow up in um what was the house itself like it's a thatched cottage and it's yeah I I think it's sort of about 1900 so it's not sort of an ancient ancient thatch cottage um and inside it had been sort of renovated quite a few times so it was one of those houses I guess that sort of the feeling inside didn't totally match the feeling outside um but the feeling inside was home I think the the the main space we spent time in was this big sort of kitchen and family room which actually was something my mom and dad sort of added to the house and it was this big sort of round room with a sort of beamed roof and the kitchen overlooked this round living room and it's where we spent you know the rest of the house could almost not have existed we just spent all our time there um and that sort of threw out onto the garden you know that must have done something to me because that sense of like the kitchen being the nucleus and the focus it is for so many people but obviously that has that has extra meaning in the life of a cook and yeah it was a very happy it was a very happy happy home it was a safe place to grow up you know we could sort of run out in the streets in a way that I kind of really wish my kids could do now um and it was a neighborhood you know there were children you know I'd run down the road and there were five or six people I could play with um my sister and my brother so there were three of you were there three of us yeah I'm the oldest you're the oldest okay yeah and then I've got a sister who's a bit younger than me and then a brother who's much younger who's 10 years younger okay so he was all kind of like you know almost like our baby our toy growing up me and my sister did you baby him then was I think we did a bit You know, I was 10 when he was born and I was sort of, you know, so excited about his arrival.

6:09And I just found him so adorable. And I was so excited. I was almost, I think I was like a mini mum. I was so excited about all the different stages for him, about, you know, feeding him his first food and, you know, and making things for him and when he walked and stuff. and it was really lovely to have that, I think, because I think so many children sort of miss their siblings sort of growing and changing because you're doing it together, which obviously has value too. But no, I guess for when I had my own kids, I had a kind of sense of what that might have been like. Obviously my mum was doing all the hard stuff and we were just doing all the fun, but yeah.

6:50That's really sweet. He's still very adored by the whole family. Is he? He's done well there. But I did start cooking really quite early. I think what my mum and dad, they love food. They love eating. They love eating out. They love being fed. But I wouldn't say that they love cooking. They both grew up without much money. And so I think food was something that was, you know, that was very much something that sustained them rather than something that they had the time and, you know, headspace to consider a joy, you know. Yeah. And so I think that definitely feeds into their relationship to food and cooking.

7:36You know, cooking wasn't something for me I sort of have necessarily learned off someone. Yeah. But what my parents were and still are amazing at is noticing their children and noticing the things that lit them up. and so from quite a young age I had you know a stack of cookbooks and I wasn't just making kind of rice crispy cakes I was sort of you know they'd go and buy the ingredients for this recipe for me to make dinner and I was doing that from sort of 10 or 11 years old and that was definitely the beginning of something. That's really nice isn't it? How do you explain why you were drawn to food in that way if it just wasn't in the family at all?

8:16I mean am I right in saying your mum didn't even have an oven when she was growing up yeah yeah no I don't think she did they just had they just had a hob so my mom grew up in you know the very beginnings of her life just in one room you know my grandma was the housekeeper and they just had a little a little hob um and you know I think it was probably that situation that I'm sure lots of families still find themselves in where sometimes my grandma wasn't eating so that she had enough for my mum so yeah I think for me where that came from was you know I know that joy that food is what sort of brings my family joy and I could sense that that sort of moment sitting around the table was a special thing I also think I really got something out of the alchemy of it too of the fact that I could mix flour and sugar and this and that pop it in the oven for a few minutes and it completely transformed and I guess I was quite I was quite a shy child so you know I think also that was a way of you know making something and and contributing something but without it being necessarily about me it was about the thing that I'd made and brought to the table rather than you know and it was it was a couple of step steps removed from me um so maybe it was quite a nice way um to express myself too i can see that because i mean i was a shy child as well and i understand that in the sense that the performative side of cooking is actually kind of behind the scenes a bit isn't it yeah and you're sort of in control of it yeah and the act of creation is something you can do semi-privately and then yeah with a flourish you can present the result exactly you can put the plate down and you know You can sit at the table or you can walk away and just hear people enjoying it a few steps away.

10:05And, you know, I wouldn't consider myself a shy person anymore. But still, I do feel nervous for a few minutes. I really hope everyone's going to enjoy it. I really hope that this is going to be the thing that they wanted to eat, the thing that suits this moment, the thing that, you know, makes this table and this group of people, you know, more harmonious and happy. And I've always loved that when I cooked in restaurants. I sort of always loved that, that, you know, the plate would go out and you could sort of, you know, slightly be an observer to sort of what the reactions of people are. That's interesting.

10:38Is there something a little bit about sort of seeking approval as well when you cook something, do you think? I think so, definitely, yeah. I think I definitely, as a child and still have, you know, I like to do things for people. I like to kind of, I think there is definitely a sort of people pleasing element to my character. Yeah, so I think it's definitely, there's definitely a level of kind of approval and wanting people to enjoy and wanting it to be, you know, I am definitely in the kitchen, you know, a perfectionist and that stops me doing things at times and that pushes me on at times. And it's a nice side to have to your character, but also it's, you know, it can be annoying.

11:19Yeah, I get that. I get that. Well, exactly. People pleasing is a double edged sword, isn't it? for you why do do you think that you were trying to please a particular person or was it part of your character inherently do you think yeah I think there's I think it's a mixture of things I think definitely there was some approval from my parents I think probably um probably from my dad I would say my mom a bit too but my mom was sort of you know she was at home she was the steady you know loving support and my dad was absolutely a steady loving support too but there was maybe there was just slightly more to prove in a way I think also you know there was this huge amazing family that dad has you know there's so the 12 brothers and sisters but with that came sort of 35 cousins and you know I think one of my formative sort of memories of feeding groups of people was at my nan's house you know and she lived in a tiny terrace house in in you know on the edge of birmingham and but on sundays everyone would come around for a roast everyone would come around and they almost couldn't fit in to the house um the the there was no dining table the table was just a little fold-down table that was shoved between two sofas and and so when everyone came around it would come out you know the the leaves were you know were bought out and there you know there were five or six chairs but we'd be on you know me and my sister two of us be on one arm of the sofa another couple of cousins would be on the others and so I think really like that was a very formative experience for me that that that food meant togetherness that gathering around that kind of Sunday roast um which sort of you know was legendary my I mean my my nan cooked in a space you know that we would probably call a cupboard these days but you know for years and years and years she turned out you know dinner for sort of 16 people every night so I think that sort of feeling of togetherness and um you know sharing really kind of I think must have landed quite deeply in me yeah that's brilliant tell me more about your dad then what did he do for work he worked in finance essentially so he I think was the first person you know common story but the first person from his family um to go to university and he did pretty well and then um you know went and worked in the local lloyd's bank as a cashier for quite a few years and then went to america and got a job in bank of america there and then worked his way up and sort of ended up in this very different life to what he'd grown up in this life where he was you know working in in finance in in London around people with lots and lots and lots of money but he's still remained very much very much the boy from you know from Kings Norton because he he still he still won't pay for a taxi you know you know he still will you know save food until it's you know and until it's a week past its sell-by date because he doesn't want to throw it away and yeah yeah I I think that's magic and what about your mum is she still alive as well yeah yeah yeah yeah my parents are you know alive and well and actually I think lots of my friends sort of prefer hanging out with them to me they're really the life and soul and I feel very very lucky to be able to say that I love you know my parents are so loved and it's sort of both ways you know As with any family, there have been ups and downs.

14:59And I think especially when you have a very big family, there's more people to pass away and more sadness that can happen. But they are still very much in love. They are still a great kind of bonby verse. They are really living life in their mid-70s. And I find it really very much what I would like to be in 30 years' time or whatever. That's really nice to have that template, isn't it? It really is, actually. It really is. Because I feel like they just don't feel old. You know, they are still, you know, so interested in culture and music and in sharing and socialising. And they haven't sort of ratcheted that down at all.

15:48So how do you feel about your old family home then when you go back there? What sort of part does that play in your life? That's such a funny question. Me and my sister have a very funny relationship with our family home because I think we have maybe developed a slightly different aesthetic to what our parents have. And I think in that spirit of making do that I think, you know, must have been such a part of that generation who were born, you know, just after the war, you know, mom and dad will just make do. They will sort of have, you know, they will have a fridge that is 25 years old and they, you know.

16:29And so I think when we go back there, the house has its foibles, you know, it has its kind of frustrations. But I think as with any house, you sort of learn, you know, the house is, it's a part of life. This house probably that people would find annoying or wouldn't find completely natural. um so it's funny when we go home especially in their kitchen because I want everything to be at my fingertips and my mom and dad they cook a little bit but not too much when me and my sister because we love to cook we go home we do get a bit frustrated I think that's very normal yeah I think it is and it's it's so interesting isn't it when you go back to your family home and I feel very lucky to be in this stage of my life and still to be able to go back to that family home and two parents who are still together and who are still there.

17:26You know, what a privilege that is. But we do regress, don't we? I regress. I become my teenage self. My sister does, my brother does. And it's almost by walking, you know, it's almost like a time machine. When I walk over that threshold and into that house, there are kind of patterns of behavior that come out that would never come out in my own home and um yeah you've got to laugh that's so true that's such a good description of it who do you become then oh I think I just become like a little bit less patient you know and a little bit more like I I don't know just a little bit more yeah impatient and a bit more kind of you know a bit more of a teenager yeah yeah not proud of it all the time you know but we're you know we all behave in a way you know that you know I would love to say that I'm completely calm and measured and make absolutely the right choices and use the right words all the time but I don't none of us do and I find that that particular thing of how that home transports me back almost to the point at which I left it within minutes of being in it is is really it's really something yeah that's fascinating isn't it you've described actually a really happy childhood kind of humble but happy which is which is really lovely I wonder if there's you know because we all have them what what would have been the kind of more challenging parts of childhood for you?

19:00I think there was a point at which I definitely I don't know if you would sort of I was probably now you would call it being bullied I don't think it was necessarily you know a sort of major situation but I do remember sort of sticking up for one of perhaps the more particular and unusual members of the class and and that then set a bunch of the kind of like cool kids against me and that must have been when I was probably my son's age about 10 but I definitely then because I was already quite a shy kid I then definitely you know felt what it was like to be ostracized and that felt really difficult and round about that time we had quite a big year of very difficult things happening I mean both of my mum's mum and dad's mum died you know within sort of a few months of each other which obviously they were young but it was kind of I guess the natural order but also we had a family who were our best best friends and they were killed in the Lockerbie Air disaster oh seriously um which was really really really difficult obviously as a family to deal with because it was almost a sort of sliding doors moment because they also had family who lived in the states and and and we did too and it was Christmas and we were both going to get a flight they were going the day before we were going the next day and I remember it so clearly we went to their house and we said goodbye to them I think the day before they left they had two daughters who were exactly the same age as me and my sister the mom was called Geraldine my mom's called Geraldine there were so many kind of similarities and you know they got on their flight one night we got on our flight the next morning and they didn't make it to America and we did and I really remember the moment that I found out um my dad we were sitting in my auntie's apartment and in in in California and um my dad was sort of looking through the paper because at that point he traveled back and forth to New York a lot for work and he was double checking that none of his work colleagues had been on the plane and he read their four names John Geraldine Hannah Rachel Stevenson and then just sort of I just I saw my parents just unravel in front of me and um yeah it was a really really you know I'm not someone that remembers things with very lucid detail but I really remember the moments and the feelings of that and I remember sort of making a decision as a little kid like that I had to be strong that I had to be there to support my parents that I couldn't unravel I think it's a it's a really big thing for a 10 year old to decide and I do feel like that has you know I have sort of in a lot of ways become the sort of steady one in my family you know the kind of reliable one that doesn't cause too much drama um that's the people pleasing yeah yeah and i and you know without getting too philosophical like i you know i do wonder whether it sort of came from that moment wow that's really thanks for sharing that that's that's um what a remarkable thing to have lived through yeah as you say so so it's so cinematic actually the way you described it but It is a sliding doors moment.

22:32So do you feel like you still carry that moment with you then? I definitely do. I do feel like, you know, those two lovely girls, Hannah and Rachel, they didn't get to have this life. And so I don't think of it all the time, but I would say every few weeks I do think, you know, I do think of them and I do think that, you know, what a privilege that I get to live this life. Um, and, you know, I think in a sense that, that perhaps drives me to kind of, just to try and make life as full and brilliant and sort of full colour as it can be. Are you okay with flying out of interest? Weirdly I am. Yeah.

23:23That's good. I'm not sure if it's total dissociation. Yeah. Um, but yeah. yeah I'm actually fine with it I'm fine with it um okay so so you you you described it that you sort of almost took on the role of the responsible one in the family somehow so let's move on then to to your your sort of early food career opening in front of you so how did that what was the unlocker for that initially? I'd sort of always cooked and you know as I sort of mentioned my mum and dad were really good at kind of furnishing me with the kind of confidence and agency and ingredients you know to do that and then as I kind of grew a bit older I think I've started cooking for my mum and dad's friends I cook for mum and dad for dinner parties and stuff like that because not for money, just because I've enjoyed it.

24:22So they'd have their friends around, I'd make some food and then that sort of became a bit of a thing. So then I'd go and cook for their friends and when they'd have 10, 15 people around. And I really loved that experimentation. I loved that going in with all of my stuff and sort of quietly sort of working away in the kitchen and then, you know, having this sort of rapturous reception. You know, they'd all had too much wine and there was so much praise at the end of it. and you know I just felt like I was helping create this really lovely sort of you know moment and so that I guess was the start but I didn't really I think because I went to a school that kind of valued sort of academic achievement and the sort of you know the sort of soft subject was economics you know it wasn't you know you could do art but that had to be on top of all of your other things it wasn't a kind of you know creativity I don't think was necessarily valued in the same way as it might be now or it might have been at a more creative school um so I didn't ever think of it as something that I could do as a job I sort of ended up doing an economics degree um and you know sort of working you know I want I wanted to go and work at sort of the World Bank or the IMF or something like that and work in like development economics um but I realized that you actually would need a PhD to do that and I think when I really looked into it I just didn't want to study for that much longer um so I got a job you know I did various different jobs I went and and cooked and worked in a bar in the mountains for a bit and sort of moved around and did all sorts of things but eventually I landed up in this job I guess doing sort of financial PR really but I read an article in a paper I think it was actually in the Times Literary Supplement that said you should determine your calling by the bit of the Sunday paper you turn to first.

26:18Oh good one. Which actually was great and that was a real sort of then I was like what am I doing here like food is the thing that gets me excited why am I not doing this and that started something and from there onwards I was sort of looking for cooking courses and eventually I you know to cut a long story short found um the the jamie oliver 15 course um but i thought i was really absolutely in no way eligible for it you know i had a university education i had a job i was really like you know i was fine just to explain to people that don't know what was what was jamie oliver's 15 course so so jamie oliver started a restaurant called 15 and it was really a kind of social enterprise um it's sadly closed now but the idea was that every year he would take 15 young people and um these were people from challenging backgrounds backgrounds you know where they were you know either stuck in a difficult situation or you know there were definitely barriers to them getting work um and every year he would take 15 people train them up as chefs and send them off into the industry you know such a lovely thing and the restaurant was this beautiful restaurant you know um just sort of behind Old Street, beautiful old building.

27:39And it was a time when Jamie Oliver was really, you know, he was in his ascent. And so I sort of saw that there was an interview day, but I really thought, you know, I'm not from a challenge background by any stretch of the imagination. I was fine. But I went along anyway, and somehow they picked me. You know, there was a series of interviews and this hilarious sort of filmed outward bound weekend where we were sort of building bridges out of matchsticks, et cetera. Oh, seriously? And doing some cooking because it was all for TV. You know, it was still a TV show when I... Yeah, I did watch that.

28:14Yeah, yeah. It was sort of strange to be filmed, but also quite exciting. And yeah, anyway, I got onto the course. And from the moment that I sort of found the course to me quitting my job and starting in the restaurant it was about 10 days so it all happened so quickly I almost didn't have time to think about it um and I had to sort of quit my job and I remember them saying well you've got three month notice and I just sort of had to say that I'm so sorry I literally can't I can't I can't work it out this amazing thing has happened they didn't think it was an amazing thing they took you to court yeah well luckily not but um But yeah, it was one of those moments where you're like, I've just, you know, I've got to do this.

28:58And from there, you know, it felt like sort of cooking on fast forward, really. I learned so much in that kitchen. And it was very special in the way that each sort of trainee chef was paired with a working, professional, amazing chef in the kitchen. So you weren't sort of just thrown into a kitchen and told to sort of peel the potatoes. You were really learning each section of the kitchen from, you know, from someone who really knew their stuff and you were really shadowing someone. And there was also this wonderful kind of pastoral care as well, because lots of the kids, you know, and young adults had come from difficult situations.

29:41So there was this team of, you know, people that were sort of supporting your life from that sense as well. um and it was so brilliant um and also for me as someone you know I was I was sort of in this group with people that I never would have been friends with you know there was like car thieves there was professional criminals essentially um who were wanting to turn over a new leaf it was just such a funny pairing um but yeah it was absolutely amazing and yeah from there then I went to actually I sort of leapfrogged over at the end of my training there to work for Jamie Oliver sort of in his I guess media business you'd call it so yeah so you were doing you were doing sort of you know styling for him weren't you and recipe stuff styling and helping with recipe development and all of those yeah so so by that point you know it was quite a big business there was you know cookbooks there was products there was tv appearances and that was one element of the business and then you know there was the restaurants and other things as well so it was such an amazing education and seeing all these different facets of the food world you know very intensely the sort of restaurant world but also you know this whole other world opened up for me which was you know writing about food and using cooking in this very creative way you know making foods to look not to look nice for photos because the food I make is always the food that I eat I would never put anything else on the plate but you know just considering food in a in a different way considering you know the creativity of like what bowl to put this food in or what surface to put this bowl on and I've always been a fan of keeping things very simple it's just a whole different creative way of thinking about food that really really sort of got me going that's brilliant isn't it and then And so how did that lead to your first cookbook?

31:38Well, I ended up writing a cookbook for Innocent Drinks back in the day. It was called Hungry. It's still kicking around somewhere. I think it's on my shelves here. But I guess similar to sort of Jamie Oliver, they were quite a sort of disruptive business. And they were also, you know, they'd only been around a few years and they wanted to write this family cookbook. And as with those kind of disruptive businesses, They just had the most brilliant and inspiring people working there. You know, and I work with their sort of creative team and it just felt so fun. It felt like there weren't any barriers to anything.

32:18You could kind of, you know, just their ideas and their way of kind of following through on very creative things was really, really inspiring. Anyway, I wrote a book with them, which was really fun, which we then toured around the country. and, you know, those sort of grass-covered ice cream vans that you used to drive around in. So we toured around the country in a grass-covered ice cream van, giving out, you know, chopped salads and bowls of pasta and stuff. And off the back of that, the publisher of that said, I think actually, you know, you've kind of, you know what you're doing here. Why don't you do your own?

32:51So it was a very natural process. I didn't write proposals. I didn't send it out to lots of publishers. I kind of, you know, this was actually a world before, dare we say, Instagram before any before social media really existed and it's so you know my books only my first book only came out 11 years ago it's not like but it feels such a different time um so you know that was the route through to writing my cookbooks really how many have you done now I'm just working on my sixth yeah so quite prolific actually well yeah it is I remember having a chat with Diana Henry once who is you know just an absolute sort of hero of mine and she sort of said well I've done one every single year apart from the year I got divorced so you must keep up that pace and I'm afraid Diana I've failed you I haven't done one a year but I think I've done one every sort of you know two or three years but I do also very much feel that you know how many cookbooks can a person write and how many cookbooks can a person have in their home I really feel like it takes quite a few years for the ideas to percolate for the recipes to be good enough for the sort of me to sort of have worked out visually and creatively what I want a book to be um so yeah so let's move on to this house um how long have you been here for been here for about like 15 years I've been here really that's decent actually by modern standards and that's good going so um tell me about your first meeting with it so I was living in a little flat in London Fields and I knew that I I really felt the sense that I wanted a front door I wanted to walk off the pavement through a front door.

34:49I just had this really strong sense of that. And I wasn't necessarily looking for a house, but a carpenter used to live in this house. And a friend of mine did some work for him and he said it was going on the market. And I came to look around it with my dad at that point. John and I were together, but he was living in Cornwall. I was still living here. It was kind of the beginnings of our relationship. And yeah, we, I came to look at it with my dad, didn't look at any other houses and put an offer in, in a way that no one, that's the story you never hear about anything. You know, you never hear that about properties, but it just, I sort of walked through the door and got a really, really nice sense of it.

35:36It feels, the house feels quite different now. They were quite sort of minimal, I think. There was lots of, you know, they'd taken lots of the kind of like coving and architraves away. There was no skirting boards. Everything was painted white. There was a lot, there was a lovely plywood kitchen. It was a lovely, lovely house. And they had three children here. And I just got a really nice sense from it. I like, you know, the garden felt nice. And I was working really, really hard then. I hadn't quite started writing my books yet. And I was still, I was doing lots of kind of TV food commercials.

36:14OK. So they were very late nights, very early mornings. And I sort of put an offer in and it almost happened without me really thinking about it too much. Excuse the quick interruption. Firstly, I wanted to say a heartfelt thank you to everyone who listens to this podcast. The response to homing has been far beyond anything I've expected. I've really really appreciated all the messages of support I've had and the many people who've taken the time to tell me how much they connect with the show. A special thank you of course to everyone who signed up on Patreon. Those memberships genuinely do help keep the lights on and make it possible for me to continue creating the podcasts and filming the house tours.

36:58Secondly as the audience continues to grow I'm beginning to look for a small number of partners for the show. If you're involved with a brand that shares homing's interests in design, nature, well-being and the way we live, I would really love to hear from you. You'll find my contact details in the show notes. Thank you very much and back to the conversation. Is that, do you think that's a good thing? Because are you someone that is quite instinctive like that in everyday life? I think I'm one of two things. I'm either incredibly instinctive or an unbelievable overthinker as you can tell by the fact that I still haven't got like mirrors in my bathroom paintings on the walls because it needs to be the right one so in some ways I'm quite good at going with my gut but if I if I sort of override that first response I can really get into sort of questioning myself um but I also think at that point in my life you know in my 20s I think I was much more instinctive because you know there was less at stake I didn't have kids you know it was just me that I was really thinking about also it just felt amazing it felt like I had earned enough money to buy half of a little flat with my friend um and then off the back of that I managed to buy this house and you know in my 20s that just felt like a miracle you know to have a house you know it felt like I felt so privileged and happy to be in it and so this house has seen all sorts of versions of me you know I lived here I lived here on my own I lived here with a kind of housemate I live you know I lived here just me and John and then we've lived here as a family so it's really seen seen so many different versions of my life and I really I really love that um and we've thought about moving so many times but you know something would have to be really good to make us move I think it's a sign of real success isn't it if a home can be that adaptable to different life stages in that way um when did you put this extension this kitchen extension on in 2020 the best time to do building work I heard that yeah it was brilliant we were we we actually were living at my mom and dad's so we were doing it over you know FaceTime or whatever with a builder it was really weird because we were sort of driving up here with masks on getting out the builder was sort of outside and we'd come in and sort of look around the house and wonder if we were going to be in trouble we we didn't do that in the very tricky bit of lockdown but yeah it felt very a very strange time to be doing this quite exciting thing and I think it added a sort of layer of stress because you know famously renovations are reasonably you know can be reasonably fraught can't they and this extra layer where we couldn't actually be here and we couldn't actually feel the feeling of the building um felt tricky but that's when my friend Kate came in so Kate Sessions who's one of my best friends lived about six doors down and um because of all of that and because of her great skill um with interiors and her amazing taste and knowing um you know what taps are the taps i was sort of imagining in my head and she had a name and a brand and a place you could buy them um she was really our sort of eyes and ears and came over here much more um sort of help with that process so thank goodness so she sort of advised rather than designing it yeah yeah yeah Yeah, absolutely.

40:40She sort of... Little black book. Yeah, I felt like I really knew the things that I wanted and Kate helped me sort of find those things and then could be the person here to come in and be our eyes and our ears and our heart in this house when we really couldn't actually get here. Yeah. So you were saying earlier, as you kindly showed me around, your kitchen, well, you've got this DeVol unit here sort of rough sawn timber with marble on top um this is where you develop your recipes and where you shoot them often as well so it's kind of you know it's a it's a family kitchen but it's also a working kitchen isn't it yeah yeah yeah it is it really is um it's a working kitchen and i think you know our sort of view of working kitchens perhaps not this kitchen it might be more sort of stainless steel and knife racks and you know pans hanging from racks and that kind of thing but I I know from doing lots of kind of cooking in lots of wild and different places you know from working you know on food tv shows and doing food commercials I've sort of cooked all over the place you know mountain sides up you know the top of olive groves you know in the back of really really sketchy vans you know outside outside sort of you know shoots when I was you know doing commercials and stuff so I really feel like I wanted a calm space to cook in and this to me feels really calm and actually for me to have creative thoughts and have the space to think I need I need sort of expanses of space so I think that was sort of the thought behind this because it does two things this kitchen it sort of feeds our family and it is where we eat and kind of have people round and where but it also is my workspace and for a while I had a separate studio kitchen but that just didn't work it just didn't feel sort of honest in a way interesting yeah I wonder whether I sort of hold myself too much down to kind of like truthfulness and honesty but if these recipes aren't being cooked in my home kitchen they cease to be the things I want them to be you know fascinating yeah I want to cook them for my husband and my kids and my mates when they come around I don't want to cook them in a scenario that is fake I want to cook them in you know it has to be rooted here it has to be cooked here and of course there are times you know you know the odd day on a book shoot or whatever that we might go to you know a studio just so we can get more stuff done um and not have you know my three-year-old running around but in general everything happens here and everything is recipes that I would make for my family and are part of the tapestry of my life yeah it's a great way of doing it I mean so you're obviously doing you're doing media stuff you're doing writing and things like that when you've got a book coming I mean but when you're developing recipes are you standing here in this kitchen going come on Anna I've got to come up with a recipe you know that's my job today yeah it's come up with five recipes or is it does it that emerge organically from cooking for your family it's a bit of a mixture really i i think because the way i cook isn't necessarily it's the front door box you've been burled i don't know it's probably a cookbook that's why that's the sound of a cookbook coming through the door

44:32lovely what a what a what a treat um yeah it's a mix really i think as a cook and as a person i am quite instinctive and I am quite kind of sensory led so the way I would naturally cook perhaps doesn't lend itself to being written down just like I guess if you were trying to explain how a painter did you know a painting but obviously to allow people to replicate that I have to kind of break that down into stages so quite often I'll cook something for my family and I will write it down in a little notebook or I'll even just sort of send it to myself in a voice note yeah and then I will I will sort of take calm time another day to really make sure that I'm explaining that the right way because there are assumed pieces of knowledge that just you know that I just know happens you know the sound that, you know, courgettes might make when, you know, they actually, you know, they've caramelised enough and they've changed from green and raw to kind of sweet and caramelised.

45:41And all of those kind of sensory visual cues that are part of my cooking need to be written down because I really feel like they are the key bits of a recipe to me. And how precise or prescriptive is it? I mean, if you think about Jamie Oliver again, he sort of started us off with the whole, you know, a glug of olive oil rather than a precise amount, for example. Where do you fall on that spectrum? I think a recipe is, in a way, a bit of a container. I think when people are cooking from a recipe, they are looking to be sort of held with the wisdom of someone else who's done it before. And so I always, I err towards a little bit more detail than I would like myself.

46:30because I think, you know, a confident cook can just, they can just whoosh by that. They don't have to read, you know, a lot of my friends who are cooks will look at the ingredients list, look at the picture and, you know, and they won't really read the method. So, but I do think there are people who do want to know that it's, you know, that it's 15 grams of basil, because there are people who really, who that is important to. And I think actually cooking with my husband, John, has really taught me that because he's a scientist. He really likes a method. He really likes, you know, a process. He likes to chop up all of his stuff at the beginning, have it all ready and then get into the cooking process.

47:10Whereas I just turn a pan on and that's when I start chopping. So it's been a really good lesson in the different ways people cook. What does he do, John? He's a chemist by kind of like, you know, sort of that's what he studied. but now he does kind of um engineering and kind of yeah quite semiconductors do you know what that is? Semiconductors crikey sounds sounds above my pay grade that. It's definitely above my pay grade it's a real conversation stopper sometimes but he's also a surfer so people love to talk to him about that. Oh fine we forgive him John you're forgiven. How did you meet you two?

47:46We met at university actually um but we didn't get together for a very long time after that I had a boyfriend for a very long time and he had a girlfriend and we sort of we just loved each other as friends and he was always the person even when we'd both broken up with our prospective partners he was always the person that I loved to have over and in fact I started trying to sell him to my single friends I kept being like he's the best guy he's the greatest guy because of this reason that reason that reason I think it was my sister that was like I mean are you is there something else going on so yeah we've known each other yeah for longer than we haven't now which is quite nice that's really nice yeah what how would you explain the the the complementary characters and why it works between you well I think I'm much more focused on the visual aspect of our lives on the kind of space that we live in on the things that we eat and and John really appreciates those things but they're not his drivers okay John is really good at he's quite a sort of steady person John in and I say that with you know thinking that actually that is to me really really grounding and wonderful um and he's much better at kind of routine and remembering things and kind of um you know just really grounding our family in a way that I can be sort of like quite sort of flitty and have these thoughts and follow them off um and he's quite good at sort of bringing us back down but not in a boring way just in this very very reliable but kind of like deeply affirming way you know and that yeah I think it's you know it's ended up being quite a good combination sounds ideal yeah yeah I think I think that's a really good combo and do you think he might say therefore that you sometimes pull him slightly out of his routine definitely yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah definitely I'm I bring I bring a certain amount of chaos with me I think yeah but I think you can't be someone who maybe you can I'm just thinking of cooks that are very very kind of like ordered in particular but I think there is a certain level of chaos that comes with cooking especially when you've cooked in actual restaurant kitchens you know it's such a sensory overload it's like everything's going on it's like it's organized chaos and I feel like that's sort of what I bring there is a level of sort of pre-thought to it but also it's you know I'm yeah I'm very good at doing things on the day not so good at what not so good at the preparation okay but it's isn't that a nice thing to like be at the age where you really can like recognize and own up to those things a bit I think it is we need to understand ourselves at some point yeah so what what would be the the downside of that side of your character because it sometimes must get a bit out of control or yeah I think it means quite often I walk into things like unprepared you know don't walk today thank you uh well I had to tidy the house Matt so you know there was a level of preparation but um I do think also with that comes a kind of instinctive you know ness and a passion that you know I wouldn't I wouldn't sort of trade that in for being really organized even though it frustrates me sometimes that I'm not more of a forward planner but it's I have changed as a mother I have had to change you know um I really do think that I'm quite like my mom in that way you know I sort of um my mom always says she has this thing called be me up Scotty syndrome where she basically thinks that she can leave to get somewhere at the time she's supposed to be there um um and so all my life you know we were always in a rush we were always in a rush or always running late and um I was kind of fine with that but that stressed my sister out a lot and I really didn't I know the character of my son he wouldn't have been comfortable with that so I've had to kind of like you know re-engineer my character a bit as a mom yeah so yeah upwardly managed by my children yeah well on the subject of motherhood I mean so it's 10 years ago you had your first yeah yeah yeah um on this podcast we talk a lot about we you make the link between the home and the inner selves because our bodies and minds are a kind of home.

52:36So I just wondered if motherhood initially, did it make you feel more at home in yourself or did it challenge that sense of home inside you, would you say? I think it's such a big shift, becoming a mother, becoming a parent. and I when I say that I you know I I really want to also say that I think there are other things in life that can bring you know shifts like this because I spent a long time really wanting to become a mother and really wanting to have a second child and so I really understand the kind of like someone who might be listening to this you know having wanted to become a mother and not been able to or someone who just chooses not to have children and I really sometimes can understand that the conversation around being a mother or being a parent feels quite exclusive and actually really it is just another reflection of being a human and of having to sacrifice something in yourself to care for something or someone else you know um um yeah but it was a big shift for me becoming a mother um how old were you I was 36 I think so probably a little bit you know towards the towards the hill yeah over the hill exactly well I had my second kid when I was 43 so that was definitely you know they were calling me geriatric at 36 love that language from the medical profession thank you very much I bet it was a man who wrote that.