Anxiety in the Body: Creating a Sanctuary at Home with Dr Alexandra Shaker

22:38Dr Alexandra Shaker:And, you know, that's frustrating. You're stuck. You're stuck. But another person I interviewed on this podcast is Chris Packham, who is autistic. and he talked about how when he's filming Spring Watch on the BBC, the whole crew and everyone knows that Chris needs to sit in a certain space. I think it's like a certain position in the car, he was saying, and he has to have things a certain way. And it is about control. And so how does control feed into anxiety for you and what can we learn from that? I have to say I love Spring Watch. Yeah, it's great. I just have to note that. That's fantastic.

23:13I think control is central to anxiety. I think that a lot of what anxiety kind of ultimately, it's at its essence is sort of like a recognition of how little control we have as human beings in this world. And so maybe we can control certain small things like where we sit in a cinema, but we have, or a car or, you know, whatever it is. But that ultimately there is so much vast lack of control. and we can experience devastating loss. Our mortality is incredibly overwhelming for many people, if you think about it, which people, I think, try to avoid. But I think what anxiety really is, is sort of like reckoning with the fact that we have so little control in this life and that can be really painful.

24:03And I think that, you know, when you think about these sort of tactics we set up for ourselves, these sort of like creature comforts, like where you're going to sit, that's all really like it creates a sense of comfort in our days. And those things are, I think, worth doing, you know, if you can, if within reason, if you can, why not sit in the seat you prefer, you know? But I think in some ways, when I think about adolescence, adolescents don't have that much control over their lives. Children don't have that much control over their lives. They're kind of at the whim of the adults who run everything.

24:37And as adults, you know, if we're lucky, we get to have more say in how our lives look. And so I think, you know, we have to be honest that we want to be in control. We have almost none. And that's life.

24:51Dr Alexandra Shaker:That's life. Yeah. You sound more evolved than me. I mean, I say these things, you know? Yeah. Let's talk about the home. Yes. So you've recently moved into a new home, right? Correct. In London. Yes. So tell us about that. How does that feel? And, you know, you talked about moving around a huge amount yeah so how important is it to you now to have this more permanent home it's so so important to me um I mean yeah we've moved many times and I have been really craving um a permanent home a home that feels like ours that we can sort of not feel like we're about about to move out of at all times um and so finding the right home that felt really kind of for me, like I love to feel cozy and comfortable.

25:38I love to have a space that feels warm and inviting. That means a great deal to me. And I wanted to provide that also for our son. You know, all these things mean a lot to me. So a lot of time went into finding it. And once we did, I think it's felt like a huge sort of like weight off to be in this one place that we can really see ourselves in for a while. And I think it feels very grounding. It feels like there's just an ease in it that we hadn't had for a while.

26:11Dr Alexandra Shaker:How long have you been there now? Less than a year. I think it's been like about half a year. So before we started recording, you said it was quite a process to find it, right? How many places did you view? I think I viewed at least 65 places. I don't know what's considered normative. That felt like a lot to me it is a lot that felt like a lot um we saw a lot of different places they were all there was a wide variety in terms of like the aesthetic and neighborhoods and all of this and so it was a pretty i got pretty tired of looking yeah i got pretty tired of looking um what out of interest how did this one like make the grade where the other 65 didn't right well there were a few in the other 65 that we thought might make the grade and then like for one reason or another.

26:54They fell through. I guess that's everyone's situation. But this one was special. I mean, there was no question. Like there was like absolutely no doubt that if this could be our home, we wanted it to be our home. You know, there was no hesitation. I was sort of joking with you before, but you know, I tend to be sort of like practical to a fault. And my husband is really great about sort of like holding out for the right thing to come along. And so I think in this case it was worth all the waiting to find the right home yeah yeah yeah yeah good for him yeah no he's very good at that so someone gave us the advice you know during this frustrating process like you know the right place will come and when you and when you find it you will have no regrets about the ones that kind of got away yeah and I was like give me a break that's like absurd this is so frustrating and I think I think it turned out in this instance anyway to be true

27:45Dr Alexandra Shaker:So, and can you describe the feeling of those first days and weeks in the house? What was that like? It was, I mean, it was really exciting because it felt like, you know, a lot of energy going into this and finally here we are. At the same time, I think it's like moving is, I think, well known to be one of the biggest stressors that we go through regularly. It always feels like somehow like where did all this stuff come from? what am I going to you know like what are all these objects that I have to deal with and physically move um but it felt pretty magical to be totally I don't mean to be corny about this but it was like I remember just kind of like waking up in the morning and it was totally in boxes you know we were not settled but it just felt amazing to finally be at home yeah you know and because you're both American right yeah um so your husband Robert Eggers is is um is a film director, very well-known film director.

28:40Dr Alexandra Shaker:Just tell us a little bit about him and his work for people that aren't familiar. Sure. Yeah. He's a film director who I think his work sort of takes on the darkest parts of our psychology in many ways. A lot of his work is sort of in the horror genre, but very artful. You know, he's extraordinarily psychologically minded. So I think in that sense, there's sort of like this connection there for us around taking on sort of the themes that that we as human beings have to face. And in his movies, it generally is sort of like within the sphere of horror. So that's sort of, I think, the quickest encapsulation of his work.

29:21Dr Alexandra Shaker:So for you personally, describing yourself as a bit more of an anxious person, how does your home help with that for you? Yes. I mean, it helps so much. Um, and to be fair, I think this was true even in more transient homes that we lived in. Um, but, um, for me, you know, like I said, my home is where my husband and my son are. Um, but it's also a place that we have our friends. Um, it's a place where I can cook, which I love to do. Um, it's a place that feels sort of like nurturing. Um, I love to have sort of like the smells of, of good food and, you know, um, my books and my husband and I both have a lot of books.

29:59or surrounded by those, that makes me feel quite at home. You know, I like sort of just the comfort of being in a space where you don't have to sort of be anything in particular. You can just sort of let it all go and just be at total ease. You know, that is, I think, what we all want in many ways, right, when we get home. And so that to me is what I try to have for myself and my family at our home. And I want our friends to feel a sense of comfort and kind of like welcome when they're over and when my family is visiting and, you know, this idea that we can share a space and kind of like this time of year, the big excitement is like, you know, the Christmas coziness for us is really, really lovely and, you know, means a lot, especially with a child.

30:47So those kinds of things feel really like welcoming and enveloping and warm.

30:52Dr Alexandra Shaker:So in terms of practical advice for people listening, I've written down here making friends with anxiety yes yeah why do you think I've written that down I mean what what does that mean to you would you say I like that I like that yeah I think the thing is that with anxiety you know if your objective is to get it as far away from you as possible it will kind of come closer and so I think that making friends is a nice way to look at it as sort of like you can meet your anxiety. You can kind of introduce yourself. You can acknowledge its presence. And I think you can kind of learn to live alongside it.

31:29And that actually makes it sort of like far less aggressive. You know, when we think about even clinically speaking, like in obsessive compulsive disorder, when people have intrusive thoughts that are upsetting, it's much more effective to acknowledge the thought and sort of let it pass instead of trying to aggressively push it away. And so I think that that's true of all anxiety. You can sort of say to yourself, like, I am anxious right now. I'm feeling these physical sensations and so forth. And I can tolerate them, even though they're uncomfortable. And then you will find that they do pass the moment passes.

32:03Dr Alexandra Shaker:Yeah. So how do you kind of embrace it rather than resist it? I mean, I think there's an element of sort of coming to understand what gets it going. So So for some people, that means understanding like the physical sensations, the environments, like you said, that tend to set it off and trying to sort of create an understanding in your own mind of what form your anxiety tends to take. I think that's sort of like one piece of it. And then I think also trying to take a deeper look for yourself at what might be driving it. Are you going through a period of significant change in your life? Are you feeling some sort of large sense of uncertainty?

32:46You know, what is happening? Being kind of curious with yourself about your own mind. And I don't want to say that that's going to make your anxiety disappear. I think that's false. But you can also sort of, you can get pretty far with sort of an attitude of curiosity rather than sort of like horror or total rejection.

33:08Dr Alexandra Shaker:I think that's interesting though, isn't it? Because I think when you first experience it, especially when you're young, there is that sense of horror oh yeah it's a realization that god it's almost like sometimes your body's being controlled by external forces yeah well i don't have this control that i need here yeah i mean anxiety in some ways must be a positive force right what in what way does it actually help us so i mean certainly you know anxiety from like an evolutionary perspective is a life-saving force um if if you were never anxious you would not be aware of threats to your survival.

33:38And so we can imagine in environments where, you know, daily survival is more at risk than we're lucky to have here today. You know, you can imagine why being anxious is protective. You can sort of notice threats, try to move away from threats before they get too close, all these kinds of things, right? You know, in a more sort of like, in another context, You can imagine if you're anxious at work, you might sort of like not let anything slide. You might make sure that everything is just right. And you might get a lot of praise for that. On the other hand, if it goes too far, you might take forever to finish anything.

34:17You might kind of need too much reassurance, need too much sort of reinforcement from higher up. So there's different ways that it can kind of exceed its utility. But there's no question that we need some anxiety in order to sort of like get out of bed in the morning and do anything. We just, we don't want it to take over.

34:37Dr Alexandra Shaker:I think that's exactly right. I think what I've learned about it is it is a driving force of sorts. And actually sort of unlike depression, depression, I feel like is something that, that sort of, it pulls you down, doesn't it? And it's awful in its own way, depression. Yeah. And anxiety is extremely difficult to live with, but it, it is a force and it, it does, it does generate action i find yeah you know that's the upside of it i think yeah i mean i think that um i again i i'm not saying i have data for this but i would imagine that if you looked at a sort of like a lot of people who run businesses for instance things like that there is a degree of anxiety um that fuels some of that kind of force yeah um and we so you know as you say, we need some of that.

35:24Depression is often sort of more of a state of feeling inertia, feeling just an overwhelming sense of an inability to go forward in a way that's really different, as you pointed out. So I think that with anxiety, it's sort of like easier to see the function and the benefit, again, if it's contained.

35:49Dr Alexandra Shaker:How would you say that you know when you've gone from being anxious to having a disorder of some kind? I mean, I think the two primary things I would think about is interference in your life. Are you unable to go to work or function at work or go to school or function at school? You know, these kinds of sort of like blatant things that are part of everyday life for most people. Are you struggling to do them because of your anxiety? So how is it interfering? How much time is it consuming? Are you struggling to fall asleep for hours at night because you're anxious, for example? Or are you feeling changes in your appetite, your sort of physiological well-being, that you're struggling to eat or eating more than you normally do because of your anxiety?

36:32These kinds of questions. So you can imagine, I mean, almost everybody feels anxious sometimes. It's rare and concerning if you feel no anxiety. But you want to think about interference and sort of the time it's consuming in your life.

36:49Dr Alexandra Shaker:Yeah. Yeah, that's fair enough. Let's talk about coping mechanisms. Yes. What would you recommend as some of the best coping mechanisms for anxiety? I mean, of course, if you are struggling, you know, psychotherapy can be extraordinarily powerful. For many people, there is utility for medication as well. So these are sort of like the two most obvious things. But I think outside of a clinical setting, I can speak from sort of like research and also my own experience. There is no question that physical exercise is really important for anxiety. And I did not want this to be true because I'm not a natural athlete, but there is simply no way around it.

37:32Physical exercise has cognitive benefits of many kinds. It is very useful when it comes to anxiety. It creates lots of kind of good changes in your body chemistry in the short term and in the long term. I think the other thing about exercise I think is really powerful is that exercise pretty much inherently, like whatever you're doing, you are expecting to feel kind of physically uncomfortable.

37:57Dr Alexandra Shaker:Yeah. And that's not considered a bad thing when you're, I mean, you know, I absolutely don't want to hurt yourself, but within reason, that's part of it. And a lot of anxiety is connected to this sense of like having a hard time tolerating physical discomforts, feeling really freaked out by changes in the body that are normative. And so I think that there is something really useful in learning to tolerate the sensations of exercise as this ordinary part of life that's actually, that can be good for us. Within like two days of not exercising, I can feel a difference. What is it that you do then?

38:33I get, so I, I do strength training. I do that as well.

38:36Dr Alexandra Shaker:That's amazing. It's great, but there isn't, and I run, but like, I'm such a slow runner. It's like, it's like humiliating, but, um, I do it anyway. Um, just cause I sort of tell myself like, who cares how fast I am? I'm going to get my heart rate up, you know? Um, and I find running requires a little bit more sort of like, it's harder for me to get out there and do it. Strength training is like a little bit more fun to me. But I try to do 50-50 because I think that I feel the best physically and emotionally when I've got that release, that running. It's hard to replicate that in other sports.

39:10I think running is kind of unusual in the kind of like quick burst that you get from even like 40 minutes.

39:17Dr Alexandra Shaker:Okay, so that's exercise. Yes. What other coping mechanisms have we got? Well, I mean, mindfulness practices such as meditation are extremely healthy. They are healthy for our brains in many ways. Anxiety is one of them. I think what I would say is that it doesn't have to be a dramatic sort of massively consuming practice. It can be something that you do for five minutes a day. Some people get interested in sort of like walking meditations and other ways to meditate that don't require sitting in a silent space, et cetera. You know, so there are lots of ways to go about it. But there is, it's like we want these solutions to be like novel or quick.

40:00But I think that there's lots and lots and lots of evidence to suggest that mindfulness practices actually do help. So if I'm able to sort of like imagine a prescription of activities, I would say exercise and I would absolutely say mindfulness.

40:15Dr Alexandra Shaker:And that word mindfulness is quite a broad term, isn't it? Yes, that's right. Yeah. How do you get started on mindfulness? this like i want to get going with this what is it what do i do so i mean i would i would say something as simple as downloading a meditation app that will give you a bit of a guide to get through it and maybe making like a very small commitment like i'm going to do this for three minutes for a week and sort of see how it goes and it can help to have kind of like an accountability partner i used to do this with some friends of mine who are therapists and we all downloaded the same app and we would text each other when we had done it.

40:51Dr Alexandra Shaker:Oh, that's a good one. Because it was like a daily program. Yeah. So we would just text us something like done and that was it. And then the other thing I would add is sleep. Sleep hygiene is enormously important for our brain health in so many ways. I think that anxiety is one of a long list of things that spans the entirety of our bodily systems. Getting consistent and good quality sleep is really, really important. None of us feels well when we're under rested. So what do you do to make sure you get good sleep? Well, I go to bed really early for one thing. Go on, what time? Um, I mean, I am not usually awake by 10.

41:38That would be like, there would have to be like a really good reason for me to be awake at that point. And, you know, I'm up at six or six 30 because of, you know, daily routine. So, um, so trying to get eight hours basically, I think is really important. And for me, what that means is I have certain routines that I like. I like to read before bed. Um, that helps me to sort of wind down. I like to do the crossword puzzle, which I do on my phone, which is not advised. I find that it's, for me, not a problem. It doesn't keep me up. This is not advice I would give other people. But I think you need to have some habits, some sleep habits.

42:17And I think reading is a really good one. Reading is a great kind of way to wind down. You might, you know, people do all sorts of sleep meditations, things like that. you can sort of think about having like a cup of peppermint tea you know these kinds of like little rituals in life that can kind of tell you tell yourself like it's time to it's time to wind down it's time to go to bed yeah but I do think whatever we can do to create habits of solid sleep this will benefit our health enormously you know over the years anxiety included yeah

42:51Dr Alexandra Shaker:yeah I completely agree with that I would say that's been my experience as well and I traditionally have not always been a great sleeper, but I have to routinize it, right? Do you have any good tips? I would definitely say the, I totally agree about reading. So I use a Kindle, which gives off some blue light, but not a huge amount. You get the kind of paper ones and it's pretty good actually. It means I'm not keeping my wife awake while I'm reading it. This is the thing. Because when you've got the lights on, that's kind of problematic. So it's dark. And I just feel like the act of just reading and I read frankly at night time I read quite easy to digest stuff yeah yeah it's almost like just consumption because then I find the brain winds down really quickly so that's my that's definitely one of my things yeah another one I have is never ever ever look at the time yeah it's not helpful yeah you don't need to know the time so um so I think you know if I wake up in the middle of the night and I can't sleep I will just pick up the kindle again and I'll start reading and at some point I feel sleepy again and I didn't need to know that it was three in the morning because if I knew it's three in the morning I'd start counting down right as we all do yes yes but I think it's that word routine I think is a is an important one I mean in the wider context of routines what else do you do through your day yeah that that helps you I think for me um I like to have routines around sort of like um for me morning is like a very productive um stretch like I'm not a night owl at all, as you hear.

44:23So I know that like, you know, work-wise, I'm going to be most productive in the first portion of the day. I know that, you know, I have a child in school, so my routine is in many ways attached to his routine. So for me, I think when I feel best, I know that I've had a stretch of the day when I've been able to feel productive in terms of work. I've been able to exercise. I've been able to sort of eat food that feels, you know, reasonably good to me. And I've been able to get decent sleep. This is so tiny and silly, but my son is really into making popcorn on the stove, like just like in a pot.

45:02And that has been like a, I wouldn't call it a routine in the sense that we're not doing this every day, but we're doing it quite a lot. And this has become like a really fun evening routine of sort of like, this is cozy. it's winter, like this feels a bit special and this feels a bit fun and sort of silly. And he finds the sound of it like really entertaining and, you know, and that's become like a nice little add on sort of semi routine, I think lately.

45:27Dr Alexandra Shaker:Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's what Catherine May would call wintering, right? Exactly. It's like it's making the gingerbread men in the oven, isn't it? Yes. That kind of thing. Exactly. Those things mean a lot to me. Yeah, I can see that. Anything else on the practical side that you can think of? We've talked about meditation. What about things like yoga? What about the kind of more bodily stuff? I think it's wonderful. When I was in, when I first started college, I was feeling very, very anxious. And I think I mentioned this a little bit in the book, but I'll go into more detail here. But essentially, I was advised to try yoga.

46:01And I was in New York and I sort of, I'd moved from a small town. So there were like a lot more options and things available. And so kind of like entered into this universe of this yoga studio that I was really taken with and probably was like a little culty in retrospect, but it was fine. You know, I didn't get that far in, but I loved it. I think the physical space felt so almost magical. I mean, the smell was amazing. It felt like there's always incense burning. the sounds of different instruments that teachers would use in class, the, you know, chanting in Sanskrit, all of these things were enormously soothing to me.

46:40And they were obviously, they were coupled with physical movement. And so that to me was a really, really useful experience. And I think there is, again, like I think that psychology as a field is coming around, but there has been such a divide in terms of sort of like bodily practices and psychotherapy and so forth that's just like really false and unhelpful. And so, you know, I love the idea of spending more time, for instance, doing yoga. And I sort of end up choosing other forms of exercise. But it's, again, I aspire to having more of that in my current practice. But there are these kinds of like holy feeling spaces that you can find sometimes in the world of things like yoga that can be really, really powerful.

47:28Dr Alexandra Shaker:Yeah. And I would wholeheartedly encourage people to try that stuff. In the book, I think you talk about chanting and singing, don't you? Yeah. Why is that helpful? So my first experience with chanting was in that slightly culty yoga studio that I used to go to a long time ago. But there is actually, you know, data from neuroscience about how sort of chanting and singing with other people can release oxytocin in our bodies, which is a hormone that is associated with really positive feelings and bonding. And so there is lots of reason to think these are useful, kind of powerful techniques that act on our bodies in all sorts of ways.

48:07And I think it's so interesting to think about religious traditions that include chanting in one form or another, singing in one form or another. They're kind of very, very ancient. And so there's something there absolutely that people understand. I mean, for many adults, that's just not part of our life anymore. Whereas children, they're singing in a choir or they're having all kinds of experiences like that. But many of us don't get a lot of that anymore. But it's quite powerful.

48:35Dr Alexandra Shaker:Flow. Yes. You talk about that in the book as well. Yeah. What does flow mean? And actually, can we achieve flow at home? Yes, we can achieve flow at home. So flow is a term that came into psychology in the 1970s. And now it's sort of like a big area of research. It's really, really interesting. So flow is like a type of hyper-focused attention kind of. And it's a state that we can enter into in sort of like infinite ways, certainly many of them at home. So a lot of flow research is on athletes and sort of the states of mind they enter into when they're doing extreme sports, for instance, or like surfing is a big one.

49:16Flow is also something we can experience doing like totally sedentary activities. Like you could be writing and enter into a state of flow. So what you tend to notice is that you sort of lose a sense of time. Your focus feels really sort of like specific and complete. Your mind is sort of naturally moving from one thing to the next. It's a really good feeling. It's something like you might notice it's happened because it just ended.

49:41Dr Alexandra Shaker:Yeah, right, because you're not thinking about it at the time. Yeah, you're sort of in it. And you can find experiences of flow that are with other people, like in a conversation. It can emerge, but you can also find them by yourself. Um, at home, I think, um, you might realize after the fact that you were in a state of flow during like an interaction with your family in which everyone was sort of like fully engaged in a meaningful way and there was no sort of like outward pull, but, you know, um, you might find it like sitting at your desk working. um i mean i one researcher i talked to talked about how you can have flow like doing the dishes because your mind might be somewhere that's really sort of focused and um internal and you're doing this thing with your hands at the same time and so the flow is not exclusive to sort of like special activities or anything like that it can be like quotidian doesn't have to be extreme sport No, you do not have to do any like skydiving or anything to have flow, you know.

50:40And so flow to me is really, really interesting because it basically like you can't be anxious while you're experiencing flow. The two don't coexist. So I was really, really interested in sort of like thinking about how to kind of experience more flow and what sort of what makes it possible to enter into flow. And a lot of the research on that talks about how you have to sort of like first tolerate struggle. And so like if you imagine it in a work setting, if you're trying to write something and the first like 20 minutes, 30 minutes, it's like hard going. You kind of want to get up. You don't really like you kind of like I could do some other stuff right now.

51:20This is too frustrating. And then you get into it. And then maybe you have 20 minutes of like really great flow state and you get some ideas that are really you feel really good about. And then it ends. And then you have to go through more struggle. and then you maybe get it again, right? So that's like, it's cyclical in that sense.

51:37Dr Alexandra Shaker:Yeah, okay. Practical ideas for in the home then. Yeah. Let's think about that. Yeah. Do you have any ideas about how you can set yourself up at home to combat anxiety? And I think about things like lighting, materials, space, things like that. I mean, I can talk about some of my own experiences there, but do you have any thoughts on that stuff? Yeah, I mean, I do think that your point about lighting is really meaningful that sort of like having, and I think, you know, for some people that means they want tons of sunlight. For me, that is totally overwhelming. Like I don't want to be in a room that's like flooded with sunlight all the time.

52:17Like I find California like very bright. Oh, do you? In a way that I don't really like. You know, I like to feel sort of more like womb-like. Yeah. Kind of like what to me feels calm is like these sort of more holding spaces. Um, and that's a matter of personal preference, of course, but having things in your home that feel, um, that feel special and, and personally meaningful makes me feel kind of at ease. Um, and for me, that is like having my books around, um, you know, having these books around that I have, you know, schlepped from many home, you know, from through all these different places because I care about them and they mean something to me.

52:59Um, having objects that feel, um, sort of sentimental in some sense, those things really feel like grounding to me.

53:08Dr Alexandra Shaker:Give us an example of what you've got objects wise then that gives you that feeling. Oh gosh. I have sort of like a collection of these like really lovely crystals that I don't consider medicinal. I'm not, I don't sort of think of them in that sense, but I do find them like aesthetically really beautiful. And I like the sensation of them. And they're really special to me and I have them on my desk. Um, I'm not sort of someone who, who knows a lot about sort of like the metaphysical principles behind crystals. So I, I can't, I can't take that, but I can say that I do kind of have like a, a sense of like their natural beauty and the idea that they are naturally formed, um, that, that feels really like earthy to me in a way that I really like.

53:54Um, I also love, um textiles i really love textiles i love um embroidery and sort of um like fabric arts and things like that so those are those are the kinds of like objects in in my home that i am really sort of like attached to and who i i find them very beautiful and i find like the idea that you can sort of see someone's hands in them really um really remarkable and that that sort of like feels again like earthy to me in a way that i love yeah i think that's exactly right i think

54:24Dr Alexandra Shaker:when you can sense the hand of the maker in something yeah that I think is very is a very calming thing actually and I think that my rule around the home generally with materials and the stuff you live with is is just to go for as much that's um natural and or handmade as you can yeah I think we will kind of know that instinctively but we don't always think about it so that's why a wooden floor always feels more grounding, I think, to live with than something that's, let's say, ceramic that's a bit clangy or, you know, because if you have a harder man-made material, the sound bounces off it and gives a reverberation.

55:08Dr Alexandra Shaker:The light bounces off it and causes glare. And these things do have an effect on your everyday existence, I think. I mean, absolutely. And I think sometimes we don't realize until we're in a different space what we might feel like without those elements that impact how light feels and how sound feels and all those sorts of qualities. So I absolutely agree with you. And let's say you're hypervigilant like we talked about earlier. Yeah. I think we should be doing anything we can at home to just turn down the volume on everything. And that means living with soft materials that absorb sound. It means probably living with colors that feel quite grounding and settling, perhaps related to the natural world in some way.

55:57Dr Alexandra Shaker:Absolutely. Some kind of connection to nature. Even if we live in a really super urban environment, we can still choose to live with stuff that somehow reminds us of the natural world. Some plants, you know, whatever, you know, something that connects us to nature. Yeah. You talked about space and you're drawn to kind of womb-like spaces, which I think is really, really interesting, actually. And I think actually, I've been thinking about this a lot and researching it, but if you take tribes in Africa and places like that that have had no influence from the Western world, the houses and the huts that they build, they tend to be very womb-like.

56:35Dr Alexandra Shaker:so they're actually really quite rounded containing cosseting spaces and i think that's the human instinct but i also think we have an instinct for prospect as well so there's the prospect refuge theory the idea that we we need to seek refuge because you know on the savannah we needed to hide from threats uh maybe in a cave or something like that but there's also you know you need prospect which is you need a vantage point to be able to see predators coming and to be able to identify food sources and stuff like that so i think spatially we should be going for a combination of those two things so we need to be able to retreat and we have our retreating spaces usually bedrooms um it could be a bathroom it could be a study somewhere we feel very contained but it's also really nice i think to have a space that is a bit more communal is a bit more people coming and going and also just has a bit more a sense of openness to it doesn't have to be massive but I think ideally that communal space is the lightest part of the home.

57:37Yes.

57:38Dr Alexandra Shaker:And if you have a view, brilliant. If you don't, that's okay too. But, you know, you see the point I'm making. Absolutely, yeah. So I think once we start to think about those internal spaces a bit more, we can realise that we can set them up for sort of success in terms of our mental wellbeing, I think. And then there's the kind of community aspects as well. So you talked about having moved so many times. Yeah. I mean, there is a lot of research, isn't there, on the power of feeling connected to other people and that obviously lessening our feelings of anxiety and promoting mental health in general.

58:13Dr Alexandra Shaker:So how do you look on that? Because you haven't put down roots, but kind of now you have. What's your own experience with that? And what do you think about that idea of community and belonging being important in this context? It's so important. I mean, I think I pride myself in being a good friend even at a long distance. I really put a lot of effort into maintaining the friendships that I've had for many years, even with people who I don't get to see very often. And of course, it goes without saying the same of family. Um, but I think also there is something about having people where you are, um, you know, having that sense of local community.

58:59And that has been, it's been, it's been, I mean, it takes time, you know, you don't, you don't get that in six months. Um, and so I think that can be, I think in some ways I've been lucky because our moves have, have often been, you know, our moves have been with, uh, film production. And so we've had this built-in community of people we know from that sort of transported with us. Totally. But at the same time, I think as, you know, as we've been here for longer, I've started to have, you know, I've been able to build a community outside of that that's not transient. And that, I mean, it's certainly always a work in progress, but it means a lot to me, you know, and it's like, I think it's important to find the right people.

59:46you know, to find the people you click with. And sometimes it's hard to sort out what makes that be the case. You know, it's sort of, it's just a feeling. And so I think for me in adulthood, I've been lucky to make some really wonderful lifelong friends. And some of them are now here and some of them I am sort of texting with all day, you know, who live far away. But I think feeling a part of a community is a huge part of sort of like our mental wellbeing across the board. There's so much research on the detriments of loneliness and social isolation for children, for teenagers, for adults, for the elderly.

1:00:27And so everything we can do to sort of become part of communities that we can contribute to and count on, I think is sort of like a long term piece of our wellbeing. You know, it's great now to have a friend you can call, but it's also So like this is part of how we feel embedded in a society over time.

1:00:47Dr Alexandra Shaker:I love that what you said. I didn't realize that, but you've moved a lot, of course, because you've been on film locations. And this idea that you have this family, this extended family that you take with you, that makes a lot of sense, actually. Yeah, it's been in many ways like one of the most lovely parts of it is getting to make these bonds, you know. So what kind of places have you been? Let's see. Well, we lived in Belfast. Oh, really? Um, we've lived, that was, um, sort of in the thick of the COVID pandemic. We lived in Belfast and after we lived in Belfast, we came to London. Um, and then we went back to the U.S.

1:01:23um, for like nine months, um, back to our home state of New Hampshire. Um, and that was sort of an interesting experience because it was, it was temporary, but it felt, um, you know, sort of like a return home after the pandemic, getting to see people speaking of, you know, not seeing people for a long time so that was sort of an interesting period we lived in Prague um after that and Prague is I was a wonderful place to live I mean I I can only the problem is that I don't speak Czech um but that was such a gift it was amazing to be there um and then most recently back to London amazing so yeah so a lot of sort of moving about yeah so did you and Robert meet in New hampshire then we did from the same place we we did yeah we're from the same place did you grow up together we did yeah yeah seriously yeah we met as kids yeah we grew up together when did you get together then um we both found ourselves in new york as adults um he he moved there before i did but we both ended up there essentially um and i was there for university so i was 18 um and you know the rest is history that's amazing isn't it so it's been a long time yeah how lovely

1:02:35Dr Alexandra Shaker:I mean, some of us are lucky enough, I feel, to have grown up in a place and to feel huge attachment to that place and still feel like we want to be there. But actually, for most of us, that's kind of not the case. And we end up somewhere different and we end up putting down roots somewhere. And it's a bit arbitrary, isn't it? Because, like, you know, you're both from the other side of the ocean and you settled here and you've got a son who's seven, right? Yeah. and you're you're living your life he's growing up here now yeah you've chosen to be here but it but you sort of could have chosen to do that in Prague or Belfast or New York or anywhere else right right so I kind of feel like we make we sort of make these decisions and we have to kind of commit to them and really invest ourselves in social connections in the place that we decide to live in because there's there's so much research isn't there on the importance of social connection in terms of you know helping with anxiety and depression especially yeah um so i think it's great i really you know and i really hope you're here for the long term because it does seem to be the case that you need to kind of just go for it in a place i i 100 % agree with you yeah you have to i mean and those kinds of those those meaningful bonds you know like we're talking about like they don't happen overnight you know you have to you have to feed into the system kind of, you know, and I think having kids is sort of like a natural way to meet new people because they have their friends and their worlds, right?

1:04:05And there is this kind of like natural support giving that can happen in those contexts. And I think as an adult, it can be harder to find those places to meet people and bond in that way. But I think, you know, you do have to commit to it. You sort of have to say, like, I'm going to make an effort to meet people and to be part of, you know, the infrastructure of my neighborhood, you know, things like that. And I think it requires effort. You know, you just you can't it doesn't just happen. And, you know, I can be a bit introverted in some ways. Like I can I can tolerate a lot of alone time. And honestly, but like, you know, that I mean, I don't want to be alone all the time, but I can tolerate a lot of time.

1:04:46time. And, and so I have to sort of remind myself, like, it's, it feels good to go out and have an interaction in, you know, in this community, it doesn't have to be like my best friend, it can just be sort of part of the fabric of this little miniature piece of society, you know? And it goes a long way.

1:05:06Dr Alexandra Shaker:Yeah, yeah. So we've covered a lot of ground, I think, with this conversation. But if you could sort of summarize what how you think the home specifically can help us feel a bit more grounded help us with this thing we call anxiety that so many of us live with yeah um what would you say i guess i would like to imagine that we can sort of see like a mapping on of the home that we try to cultivate in our minds um with our physical home sort of like the sense of striving for like an inner peace or a sense of peace in our physical environments that you can always go back to, you know, that it's always there.

1:05:46Like you can come back to yourself in a difficult period. You can go into the physical space of your home and feel that sense of peace and ease, whether your aesthetics are like hyper modern, I don't know, white marble or something or something like dark and womb-like like me you know so I don't know right like um I think this idea that we can um have like this touch point to return to um that's stable and consistent um feels like something that we can do no matter where we live um no matter how often we're moving to try to like cultivate that feeling in a space yeah I think that's so

1:06:27Dr Alexandra Shaker:right yeah that's so that's that's sort of enlightenment I think isn't it yeah I'm not there yet yeah but i'm not sure any of us are are we but it really is the thing strife is that feeling of inner home yeah regardless of where you are that's right i think that's what we should all sort of aim for and try to instill in in our kids you know yeah yeah yeah thanks so much i yeah just to reiterate i really would recommend anyone to read the narrowing um thank you i think it's it's it's a really really uh engaging read on on a you know a slightly bleak subject let's be honest My favorite topics. Oblique.

1:07:05But thank you so much. I'm really, I was honored to be here today and I'm just really delighted that you read my book.

1:07:12Dr Alexandra Shaker:Brilliant. Thanks, Alessandra. Thank you. Thanks very much for listening along today. Regular listeners among you will have noticed that we're now releasing a new episode every week. Hurrah! We'll be alternating between the main podcast episodes so those ones where I do a guest interview and a house tour with episodes like this one with Alexandra where I talk to particular specialists about their area of expertise in relation to the home. So coming up soon we've got a very memorable conversation with Alain de Botton who tells me why anyone who's obsessed with their home is probably deeply insecure, guilty as charged.

1:07:52Dr Alexandra Shaker:I get cozy with Sue Stewart-Smith in her greenhouse for a chat about the link between gardening and the mind. And I talk to the Japanese architect Takiro Shimazaki about why he thinks it's important to live with fewer things and touch the earth lightly. Don't forget to follow the show on your chosen podcast platform. And you'll also find us, of course on YouTube and Instagram at homingwithmat. This episode was produced by Podshop with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks again and talk to you soon. Bye for now.