Bethan Laura Wood: the multidisciplinary designer on the need to make and create

0:04Hi folks, welcome to a new episode of Homing In. Today's guest is the fabulous Bethan Laura Wood. Bethan is, of course, a designer, and she designs everything from furniture to lighting to textiles and all sorts of other things as well. And you'll find some of her work on display at the moment at the Design Museum in London. Bethan uses herself as an artwork in many ways, so she presents herself to the world like some sort of human peacock. She dyes her hair different colours, she wears layers of vivid clothing and she puts dots on her cheeks. Her flat in East London, as I discovered, isn't exactly demure either, so we recorded this podcast in the company of various hats and handbags, a jar of balloons and liquid, and a lamp shaped like a jellyfish.

0:54In this conversation we dig into the differences between collecting and hoarding. The objects Bethan lived with are like a cast of characters in a film, so the way she arranges them isn't just about what looks good together but she's also thinking about the stories they tell. Going back to her childhood she tells me about dressing like what she calls a 1950s cool dinner lady which I must admit I'd have loved to have seen and how watching tv inspired her to apply for the Royal College of Art. We talk about the impact of bullying and how she's been shaped by her dyslexia. She's such a fascinating character I think and I really really enjoyed getting to know her better during this conversation so here it is and I very much hope you enjoy it Bethan hello thanks for having us thanks for the tour around the flat absolutely incredible we will talk about this but I'd love to to take you back first of all to your childhood home where are you from so I grew up in the Midlands in Shropshire so I say I'm from Shrewsbury I was born in Manchester but I grew up in Shrewsbury that was where I kind of lived most of my childhood okay so so Shrewsbury-ish and what kind of house was it what kind of building was it what kind of flat was it what my parents yeah home so when we were very little it was like a smaller house I can't remember if it was detached or not I just I remember I had a great I remember we had lots of apple trees in the garden so we we we had lots of apples that's one of my main memories of that house and then we moved to the house that my parents still live in now which is the house I have most memories about which originally was I think had been converted into flats and not lived in for 18 months so when we first moved in you had to go up in the front door to go upstairs and the back door to be downstairs and so they then kind of set about slowly putting that house back together as one house and DIYing and wallpapering and doing all sorts to that house and that's the one they live in now.

3:03So you still go back there do you to visit them? I used to go pretty regularly back in the summer around my mum's the week before my mum's birthday because there's an an annual flower show that happens in the there's like a big quarry park area in the middle of town and there would be um the shoesbury flower show that would happen every year and so I would go back for this and my mum would enter plants and I would uh bring friends quite often I'd bring friends that aren't didn't grow up in the UK to come with me to my hometown and experience experience all the fun of the fair of the flower show and uh yeah I think as a teenager or late teens I was definitely ready to leave Shrewsbury and I was you know very hungry to get to the RCA and I think as I became settled in being based in London and felt more stable that I live here I could really go back and appreciate Shrewsbury as being a beautiful town because I'd kind of disassociated the teenage angst from my association.

4:10So it's really nice to go back there. So something about your parents, your dad's an architect, is that right? So my dad's an architect, and he specializes in hospital and healthcare. So he predominantly works for NHS hospitals in the UK. And then in other countries, it's quite often the hospital or the larger kind of healthcare systems than necessarily private, but he does do some private. But his passion is really for the NHS. And so he's, yeah, he's been in that line of architecture all my life. So it's a very particular genre. And he doesn't, he sometimes talks about it. And I quite enjoy overhearing when he kind of goes encyclopedic in his knowledge of like, outlet points that you need for certain types of operating tables or systems that you need for particular types of health, healthcare.

5:05so it's I find that really fascinating even though my obsession with details is in a completely different direction I think there's definitely a an obsessional lilt that comes from uh from him from him yeah and then my mum is now retired but she was an occupational therapist so I think partly when my dad went into health care specialism was because of my mum training to be an occupational therapist so they're both sort of involved in the same area even health care really indirectly which is interesting so have you has that had any impact on you do you think I mean they sound they must be quite caring people right I mean it sounds like your childhood therefore would have been very safe and secure and you know all that kind of thing is that is that is that a fair thing to say no I've got really supportive parents I've been very lucky that I have I have parents that have also facilitated my desire to do the direction of work that I do and they've they've always worked really hard to also provide stability to allow me and my sister to you know do what we wanted for our adult lives and what about siblings so I have one sister Sarah and she's two years older than me and she lives not that far from here now she's it's in Norfolk and she has two children and her husband and she also now does I forget the proper title of her job but she she also does teaching and assisting with young adults and also to do with kind of helping people find a way to live in the situations that they have and yeah so again another kind of caring profession yeah that's so interesting isn't it so you've gone down quite a different path not saying you're not caring but you've gone down quite a different path so what do you put that down to where did that come from my mum always says that both me and my sister liked to create and make but I kind of needed to do it whereas my sister enjoyed doing it but it wasn't like a fundamental element in the same way that I don't think I could cope without it if that makes sense so I don't quite know why my dial is like more turned up than others.

7:26So when you say that you couldn't cope without it, what do you mean? You don't think that you would cope with not being able to use your hands and make stuff? I just don't see that there's a separation, especially not anymore. I don't think there ever really was, to be fair. And now I have built up a world in which there really can't be. I can't imagine it not being, there being not a way that I could connect somehow to creativity in a form, one form or or another within my life so if for some reason tomorrow I suddenly dried up on all my design work and there was nothing there with that I don't think it would mean that then I would stop making I maybe would be making different things or I'd be doing more drawing or I'd be doing sewing more I don't know for me it's part of the language of what makes life and so I wouldn't want to not be creative.

8:24I really like that. That's lovely. So when you make things, what are you actually doing? What's your favourite discipline? When you're getting hands on, what are you up to? I do like making a lot. I get fear of making those sometimes. I think especially if I haven't done types of woodwork for a while and then you kind of get a bit worried about whether you know how to like you know cut a piece of wood but I when I'm doing it I really enjoy doing it and sometimes for example with the show I have on at the design museum right now we remade quite a few models for this show and I hadn't done some paper model making for a little bit and I'd forgotten how much I just like sitting and building models and I just find it very therapeutic and very kind of calming so I yeah I like I definitely like making I enjoy making patterns I enjoy drawing like I was drawing for a client's project recently and I was like oh this is very nice I can just sit and do this for for a couple of weeks and not that I'm not picky I think I that's partly why I built a practice that I talk as being mixed discipline because I enjoy being able to move around different working with different materials and exploring different materials when i was younger i thought i thought i was going to do ceramics as a discipline i thought i would potentially would do ceramics at the rta but then i don't know what changed where i kind of was like maybe i just didn't i had a fear of having to like not be allowed to touch other materials that then i backed away to somewhere where i could still do ceramics and other things so yeah so So can you remember being a child and making stuff?

10:07Do you feel that that's just an innate thing that you do? I definitely always was making stuff or painting or drawing. As a very young child, I don't think I had much understanding of all the different ways in which you could be creative. So the kind of default one is artist. That's one of the earliest ones you kind of know. I would draw and paint a lot. And then I did a lot of sewing because my mum's a really great sewer. and she I'm terrible at crocheting I can't get the tension but she's she's really into crocheting and so my my dad is the architect but my mom also does a lot of creative craft based things so we did a lot of paper mache and glue and all of this kind of stuff as a child and then I I remember I think my mom still has it somewhere in in their house we went to a friends of theirs and they had like a garage with some tools and I was allowed to make some balsa wood things so she's got like I made a balsa wood truck but obviously the wheels had to move so that's one I can't remember how old I was at that but I know that I was quite determined that the wheels must move so that was maybe pre-empting my yeah right my first forays into wanting things to be like objects or designed with functionality in some guise or form so what sort of personality were you if you could summarize it at that kind of age what were you like as part of that sort of family unit what would your parents have said you were like I think alternative is probably a word that was used with me and then yeah and creative and that those are probably the two main ones that they would have uh associated so what what would alternative have meant to them so i think i mean i started choosing to wear more unusual things from a young age i can't i don't know what what age are you in year eight i always um you're 13 and year eight my daughter's in year seven you're 13 so i think probably around 13 maybe a bit earlier but definitely i remember year eight being quite like also I did my art two years early so I think by the year eight I was already being kind of separated from not in a bad way but like because I did my art two years early like on lunchtime and break times instead of like maybe playing and making friends I would be like doing charcoal drawings of naked ladies which people found kind of slightly unusual and I was just really into Degas and he had lots I like I did the ballerinas but there was also lots of like bathing women or something so I remember like doing charcoal versions of this and um yeah so that maybe that's not the best way to make friends at that point um so probably around yeah from early teens or just before I think that point where you start to have more of a understanding of yourself as a and as a individual um versus being part of your like family unit so then I would yeah start to dress more unusually or be interested in vintage clothes or doing funny things with my hair or funny things with my makeup and and stuff so yeah that they were quite tolerant of that as long as it was like tidy and my skirt was not short then it was kind of allowed okay and so what did the other kids at school make of you then at that point uh they weren't they were the nicest people in the world i think even the there was like one alternative group that wore like kind of i think there was a big thing for that not it's not fishnet tights is the wrong type of type but tights where the the weave structure of the tight was a pattern and this was like a thing where at school which you could get away with having within the school uniform policy so i remember there was like a group of like the cool alternatives and I they like I think they even refused me access to their club so I wasn't quite I wasn't quite vibing in their in in their direction of what alternative but cool should be do you think that what because of what you look like do you reckon yeah yeah purely because of that well I'm sure maybe also because of my my personality maybe was not their cup of tea but But it was definitely like they were alternative, but there was still quite a uniformed look that they went for as a group.

14:35And I was not fitting that group, I think. I can't remember which year it was that my mom, but I think because you could make your own school uniform. So my mom one year made me like a giant baby doll dress with big buttons that one year. And then another year I had like a folded over kind of 1950s, like a 1950s cool dinner lady. I can't explain. It was like a cut off address. I think my mum had that I really liked the shape of. So we made that as my school summer uniform. So I'm not sure like my references were quite vibing with their interests in what alternatives should be. That's so fascinating though, isn't it?

15:15So interesting. I mean, did that go as far as bullying or was it more that you just, you were an outsider? Oh yeah, no, there was bullying. We've got some lovely letters at home from people who put chewing gum in my hair and things like this when they're forced to like write apologies I mean I'm sure that there's a lot worse bullying going on I've heard of people having really awful times at school so it was just the kind of general undercurrent of just people um being nasty to you or questioning you as a person or I think I got called 60s lesbian throwback hippie gypo something like all those words all together and I was like oh they're all quite cool things so I don't really have a problem with any of these but if you want to call that an insult that's that's your that's your bag so yeah it was uh yeah it's school is always not the nicest of thing of times where people are kind of trying to fight to work out an identity or there's quite a pack heard kind of point where I think when we got to sixth form I had a lot of people coming up to me and being like it wasn't me it was the group I I love 1960s clothes or I've I've come out now and I'm so sorry for being you know mean to you at school but it was I don't know it's part it was part of the course of my experience and so I think I it wasn't nice at the time but I also I think kind of was aware that it wasn't forever even though I got proved wrong I still felt quite determined in my mind that uh no I say wrong at that time but then I I stand by it now because I've managed to make my own career and not have to change but I remember like desperately wanting to be a school official or a head a house official you know when they do this at school and I remember one of the girls that was not very nice to me who just looked me up and down and was like but just look at you why do you think that they'd choose you just look at you and I was like yes but I've just won loads of awards for the school with my art nobody cares that I dress funny and then she she was proven right because obviously I didn't get picked but then uh you know you roll forward multiple years and I didn't I haven't changed the fact that I enjoy expressing myself with my clothes and that that in a sense has become part of something I've been able to use to kind of give an identity that's different to other people to give my a place with with my work I remember being like really dressed down and being like they would never do that they they know how much I've done for the school and being like oh yeah okay maybe maybe not they do want someone that doesn't look so weird in pictures I mean credit to you I think that you've just plowed on you know has that stayed with you that those kind of early experiences is there part of you that just wants to show them I think yeah I mean there was there's there was always some parts where it was like just wait you'll you'll see wait and you'll see but I also I don't know I also think it's not that fulfilling to focus on it.

18:32I was obsessional about other things, so I didn't need to obsess too much about that. And then I think by the time I moved to sixth form and then people were kind of more into alternative dressing or whatever, then it kind of, it was a different ballgame once you're out of that kind of secondary school environment. I think it was definitely for sure when I moved to London or I started first at Kingston University, and then to Brighton and then to London. Like in those years, I definitely found my tribes or groups that were more like akin. And then it kind of, yeah, you kind of move on with living.

19:13That's something that I've heard a lot on this podcast is that people generally find art school and then they just realise that they can be who they want to be. But you, I think, I'm right in saying, saw the Royal College of Art on a BBC TV show, right? Yes, I'm very much the TV bunny generation and I'm quite dyslexic. So I'm not, I mean, I do read books, but I find retaining information that way quite difficult. And podcasts now, I listen to loads, but that wasn't so much a thing. So my main way of kind of getting information was, you know, recording TV programs and things. So I have a very worn out VHS tape of all the programs that I could record from this series they did on the BBC of the Royal College of Art.

20:04And I think every week was a different subject. And each week I'd be like, oh, no, I want to do that. Or I want to do that one. And I remember quite vividly the I think it was right still quite early of Ron taking over the design products. and um apparently martino who became my tutor later at the rca he's in the background of one of these shots and then arash from arash and kelly uh who both have taught arash taught me on my foundation and then kelly in brighton that arash is in this tv program so it feels slightly like i've stalked some of the some of the the people in the in the program uh later in life And Martino is Martino Gamper, of course.

20:49No, that's okay. So Martino Gamper is, you know, a legendary designer and has been a big influence on you, hasn't he? Yeah, he was my tutor at the RCA, him and Jürgen Bey. And they were a really big influence on me and my work and kind of understanding how to elevate my work to the next level. And then I live like five minutes away from Martino now. well not currently he's I think he's in New Zealand right now so he does run away a bit further away trying to get away from you yeah so I kind of you know that's a little far to go but in general he's he's an amazing I think he's an amazing designer but he's also someone who's been really fundamental in supporting a group of designers within London and in the UK and work to make interesting group shows and also is someone who's really a really supportive designer.

21:42So I've continued to be very close with him and met then other designers that have been his students. So we were talking in my house, I have some pieces by Max Lamb, who was also a student of Martino, and he's also a good friend of Martino now. So yeah, there's kind of a, well, there's a lot of us that all connect back to the RCA within the design and creative community still in London. So it was definitely a really important place. So I watched that, I think it was 1990 or 91 something like that that was on the tv was it 99 no 1990 maybe 1999 you could the power of google will tell you yeah right much better than hey i will source it out for us exactly it reminds me as you're talking of um i interviewed christopher kane on this podcast and he grew up watching crap tv right prisoner cell block h like the fashion tv channel and he thinks that was massively formative for him and in fact he even did a whole um he did a whole show based around prisoner cell block h which i think is brilliant but i love the idea that you're just sitting there watching the bbc thinking wow this place looks amazing this is kind of for me so you identified it that way and then you got to the rca and what was it like did you sort of did you feel the weight of that in some way being part of that institution what does it actually you feel like to be there oh that i mean i did the classic there's a very classic trajectory that happens to most people when they go to the rca once you get in and then you like panic and lose your marbles and kind of um get lost for quite a long period of time and then you kind of at some point manage to dig yourself out of a panic hole and then produce some work so i i classically lost my mind when I got there.

23:34Really? So it's like imposter syndrome? I think, yeah, a combination of that. And then I think I'd spent so long with a focus to get there. I don't think like when I got there, then I was like, what do I do now? And then I think it was also quite overwhelming in the sense that I was suddenly there with so many other amazingly talented creative people. it was like you know really stepping into then another level of creativity and not that there was some amazing people that were studying at Brighton and also on my foundation but I think it's there's a reason why at that time and for some time the pull of getting into the RCA also was part of this kind of gathering of really amazing people and I just I don't think I've been around so many people that were all at a level where then you're like yeah the imposter feeling becomes really like strong and then I think for me I got really panicked about because I really really respected Jürgen Bey I loved his work and Martino's work so I also started to get really panicked about wanting to have something good enough to show them or to discuss and then that can become like a again like a cycle that you get stuck in so I'd get more and more panicked when I like they would be like sitting near where I am giving a tutoring somebody else then it would be my turn coming up and I'd start to panic and then they could be like at the other side of the room and I'd start to panic then I just know it like I just got into a bit of a a panic wobble where I just couldn't and then I couldn't I couldn't think when I was you know I desperately wanted to discuss design and things but my brain was just gone and so I remember Jürgen bless him trying to sort like some some sessions for me to have some tutorage from somebody outside of the college or to try and break this kind of thing that I'd got myself into where I was getting like into a panic where I just sit and cry when he would come near me and was like so you know bless to heart he was so um patient to try and help me find a way to be able to just like do a tutorial like so poor guy but um yeah so for i obviously got through that but there was definitely a window where i i i was finding it very difficult to function in front of like my idols and i think that's why i spent quite a few of my projects um walking around london rather than in the college Okay, that's interesting.

26:19You thought get out of those four walls and maybe you'll loosen up a bit. Yeah, I think it was the combination, the platform that I was part of was the manifesto of the platform was about kind of working with the city and looking at the nuance of what was in London and kind of direct manufacturing. And so part of our manifesto did mean that it made a lot of sense that I would walk around the city looking for ways to make work or this kind of thing. And then I think for me, I quite enjoy kind of walking and looking. And so that was less stressful than being sat at my desk, kind of like a frightened rabbit, not knowing what to do.

27:01I did a lot of kind of paper play interventions on things in the streets and then eventually the super fake marquetry project came from this kind of observation of East London in particular and the kind of materials that build up the city and this kind of obsession with laminates. There's the kind of panic led to me finding what would then become a very kind of... A rich seam. Yeah, and a way in which I've carried on designing and making ever since. I wish in some ways that I hadn't been so panicked so I could have enjoyed more of the art bar. And I did meet amazing people at the RCA. But yeah, I did panic a lot.

27:50But this is a lot of, if you ask a lot of people, they've all had a similar kind of experience. So we've touched on this a little bit, Bethan, but your personal style, the way that you present yourself, the way that you dress is just such a massive part of who you are. I suppose to start with on that, could you just describe to people listening and not watching, what are you wearing today? How would you describe it? Very minimal. Very minimal, yeah, definitely. I only wear black. Are you an architect? No, well, I have got stripy colourful socks on, so that is part of an architect's vibe, but maybe not chunky knit.

28:26No. I enjoy wearing a lot of colour and layers and pattern. It's a look of layering and a mix of things from different periods. I have a pochant for the 60s and 70s kind of psychedelic patterns. And quite often I'll have some sort of hat or headgear on. And I've been wearing dots on my face for many a year. They have moved around a little bit upon my face and changed colour. Oh yeah, they're red today. So why the dots? Who knows? Okay, so you can't put your finger on why. Not really. I'm sure there's a connection to clowns at some point that I enjoyed. I really don't have any strong memory of dissecting exactly why I thought from one day to the next they were suddenly an important and the correct way to present my face over some of the many other kind of alternative face makeup looks that I've done but they've they've been one of the most consistent things I've dabbled in eyebrow adornment for for a few years and I've dabbled in more extreme makeup over different years when I first moved to London there was quite a a resurgence of the kind of club scene an art scene being merged with the boombox and antisocial and family and these kind of club nights that um we just had the lee barry opening at the tate and there was a really great show just on at the fashion and textile museum so it's kind of a circularity that comes i think definitely connected with london where there's this kind of crossovers of scenes so there was definitely a kind of a heightened one of those scenes happening when I moved to London so my interest in alternative dressing was like heightened and encouraged during this window to an even more of an extreme so yeah that's kind of my look as I'm watching you describe it the red dots on your cheeks they they're kind of they're sort of like eyes to me I don't want to analyze it too deeply but they feel like extra eyes they can whatever floats your boat it's so interesting i just wonder if it's something about i mean i suppose the question would be do you think you dress up because you like people looking at you or do you think you dress up because actually it's a barrier against people looking at you uh i think it's somewhere uh somewhere in between and in a way neither of those things I enjoy to dress up for me and if I'm engaged with my physicality being part of a conversation then it's the the physicality I choose to present myself with but it's not necessarily done thinking about wanting to pull attention or like quite a lot of time people that were not all the time but there goes through waves where people think that I'm going to want to I like I'm a performer or it's part of a performance or a costume in that way that's not my interest or I'm not I mean I I'm not naive like I understand the power of an image so it helps if I'm wanting to promote a piece of work and I do a shot with it that I will like being more elaborate in my dressing can help to make a more interesting image that might get more coverage but I don't I kind of have got to a point to learn to use it as a power that I allow in rather than dressing up for other people I'm trying to not explaining it very well I think today but yeah it's like I'm not that interested to photograph myself how I look day to day all the time but I I'm aware that it makes a good picture so of course when I'm going to an event then I will choose to dress up or if I'm going yeah if my physicality is going to be part of the that day then that's my my choices to be to look like that but I don't necessarily dress up in the hope that that's going to create a like performance but it's definitely I don't deny that having that as a layer that gives me something for people to connect with and talk about it does help to break the ice and so that can be quite a positive that can I found ways for that to be a positive for me and so I don't see that as a negative thing but it's not it I didn't start doing it with that as being the intention I think I mean I don't know maybe maybe if I start lying down on this couch and speaking with somebody maybe I'd find maybe that was but um let's do it but no we're almost taking up most of the couch yeah that's my dog by the way So I can't, if I lie down, she will get a bit squished.

33:25I think also in the same way that like, maybe it's coming up in my mind because you've asked me about these things, but in the same way as when as a child, my pursuit of alternative dressing was seen as being something that potentially was going to be negative to me and would stop me being taken seriously and stop me being able to be, you know, successful. And in the same way that you can often be told as a dyslexic person that that's a negative and there is negativity. Of course, levels of dyslexia can really make certain things difficult. But in the same way, for me, I found it as being an empowering thing for me, or I found a way to make it empowering.

34:06So I think some of my ways in which I digest the universe with colour, for me, like when I was studying and writing, I would break down words and text, blocking them in lots of different colours because it allowed me to read them better. And so I think some of probably my ability or interest in color might be connected with the way in which my dyslexic brain reads things or breaks things down. And so I use that as a positive. That's so interesting. My dressing up, which was, I was told as a child or as a young adult that that was going to be a negative. I'm very proud that I can be like, well, no, not got a front cover because I dressed up, but I'm on the front cover and I'm dressed up.

34:52And it's my choice. I'm in control of it. And this is my presentation of me. And yeah, so I think, I don't know if that's gone a bit around the house of answering your question. It's absolutely fascinating. Yeah. clothing yeah would you describe yourself as introverted or shy or are you quite a performer um that's very funny because i i was doing another q a for for um or i think for somebody a company i'm working with and they were trying to write text and they had me listed as a extrovert and i was like am i an extrovert i thought i was more of an introvert but it's uh i definitely think i'm more shy in like group things but then I really enjoy communicating and talking and I process better like with me and my team in the studio I really like to talk through like what we're working on because for me it connects with what I can see visually in my brain and it's I I kind of digest what I'm doing better.

36:02So I know I'm quite a communication is. So when I was looking at the thing about what is the difference between an introvert and an extrovert? Yeah. I was like, oh, but I'm that and I'm also that. Yeah. So, yeah. So. Which is common, which is common. And also you develop as you get older, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I have been forced to do karaoke for friends that are really into karaoke. and I will bend to the better enjoyment of people that I care about. But I'm not someone that's going to jump. Yeah, first in the queue. First in the queue to be like, you know, singing my rendition of Bjork's song.

36:41Violently Happy or whatever it's called. Yeah, that's the one everyone knows is not my favourite. So it's like, oh, pagan poetry or a Kate Bush song. But now, you know, that's come back round into popular culture. So that gets used a lot. but before it was more of a niche go-to. Would it be Bjork then? She's my default favourite musician. Default sounds terrible. She's my favourite musician. I like her. Also because she's an amazingly talented person, but she's also someone who's been able to marry this combination between having a personal interest in a more elaborate identity from her visuals, but also her use of that within connecting it to her sound and her music and then the creation of typographies around different.

37:32I think she's amazing in crafting a world that's Bjork world. and she's one of my idols both visually and musically and as a kind of human being. I can see that. You've done the same thing. You've got an extremely defined visual world, which is very rare, I think. We had Zandra Rhodes on the podcast. I love her. Yeah, she's amazing. And she said that she sleeps in her makeup. She never sees herself without her, in inverted commas, face on. does that chime with you or are you more comfortable with just taking it off somewhere in between I mean I'm definitely from the dusty springfield school of like if I've got the mascara on I don't always remember to take it off and there is those kind of pillow shrouds of like mascara that happen yeah I'm not like someone who does like a whole routine of demakeuping every night but then I do it depends what I'm doing if I'm just going to the studio and I'm just I'm all I'm doing that day is working where my physicality isn't part of that then I I don't tend to dress up with makeup or these kind of things I mean the clothes that I'll be wearing will probably be like clothes that I've bought and then maybe aren't aren't like quite doing the right vibe but so they'll still be kind of colorful clothing but maybe not kind of the b-list yes exactly more the b-list of of things or the warm warm things or cool things depending on the time of year but not a pair of black jeans no I haven't worn jeans for a very very long time so how would you feel if you did like let's i mean obviously you know so you're in you got your game face on today because you're doing a podcast right you're not in the studio but if you were doing this in yeah a pair of jeans and a t-shirt how would that feel i mean i don't think i even have a pair of jeans anymore i haven't i literally haven't owned jeans for many many years i have some nice big oversized t-shirts we'll find something close to what you're after but just not not quite what you're seeing is that just because you just feel too ordinary i don't know if it's about ordinary i just wouldn't feel me yeah it's not like if i go um to climb a mountain or like to do something that's got a very particular activity to it that i'm not i won't like try and like find some slightly appropriate clothing You know, my technicians at Brighton, when I was studying there, they did club together and give me this kind of orange, actually, very bright orange dungarees because me wearing tutus was causing them anxiety with the amount of synthetics I was wearing and the flames.

40:41So I have learned that there is a tipping point where you need to be slightly aware of clothing versus heavy machinery. If it's possible, I will always lean towards something that I feel more comfortable in. I just don't find jeans a comfy thing. They're kind of a threatening thing of jeaniness. On other people, they're lovely. I just, they're not my thing. Threatening? Why are they threatening? I don't know. I don't know what divorced me from jeans. I was really obsessed with one pair for many years and I remade them when they were no longer sold anymore from I think it was Miss 60s or something.

41:27They were like a very wide length jean. But I did customize them with transparent pockets that you could put things in. So I did have dismembered Barbie dolls or like cheap Barbie dolls. I couldn't afford real Barbie dolls with colorful hair and other objects that I would place. So I think even when I did have jeans, they were bent to my uh to my will iron will yeah exactly um but yeah i do vividly remember being like i will not wear jeans again and then it never it's just jeans are dead to me they are so beth and let's bring it back to the home so let's talk about this place it's just absolutely extraordinary in here and as i said to you earlier i could spend several days in here just exploring it but it's a small flat isn't it i mean how big is it um 53 53 square meters right so so it's you know yeah so a lot of people listening will identify that that's yeah 53 550 square feet or so of space and yet there is so much in here so many layers from your history and your past and so on but let's start by saying where are we're in east london We're in East London and we're in what previously was the electrical showrooms.

42:47So it's a building from the late 1920s. And it was where you'd come to see the magic and the wonder of electricity and all the things you could do with it. So there was like mock kitchens. I think there was like a mock cinema, various like home setups to show how electricity can, you know, change your world and then offices and various other things. And then in the 90s, I think 1996, it was bought and converted into flats. And they kind of, they did them up in the, I would call, it's the kind of changing room era of doing up rather than how to sell your home era. So they went with the art deco of the buildings.

43:34So nearly all the flats have these glass divides in them at some point that are between the kitchens and the main rooms, because most of the flats in this building are kind of studio one or small two beds. So they all have a similar character. And then sadly, my bathroom doesn't, but a lot of the bathrooms that when they were done, when it was converted, have a lilt of the shining kind of feel to the colour of the bathroom tiles. I really like the tiles in the original bathrooms. I've lived in this building for quite a long time, so I've seen the interiors of a few of the flats. So I appreciated the choices made in the conversion.

44:14What is the shining color? They're like pastel, the pastel hues of the building. So the windows of the building are mint green. And then most of the woodwork inside is like this kind of pusey pink. It's not a baby pink. It's got a bit more, it's like a chewing gummy pink. It's got a bit more depth to it. And then there's also like a light blue, like a gray purple blue. And these are like everywhere in the building. And then in the bathrooms that were done when it was converted, I think they found tiles that were these plus like a lemony yellow. It's just this kind of cheap version of the language, but the kind of, it reminds me of the bathrooms in The Shining, which is one of my favorite go-to references of bathroom aesthetics.

44:59By the way, I've got some twins if you want to borrow them because they look very good in a corridor. Exactly. All corridors need a pair of twins at some point. So there are hundreds, thousands of objects in here. Why are objects important? Why do you collect things? I think for me, I've always found learning from physicality, from doing or from being able to touch stuff and pick it up and look at it, important and I think I started collecting objects from even from when I was like living at home I was like we'd also go like my mum would take me to like flea markets and car boot sales and charity shops there's a lot of charity shops in Shrewsbury which I'm very uh I'm very big fan of so I think I always kind of picked up objects and I think when I was younger and a student it's also it's a it's what objects you can find accessible so then I would pick up a lot more small objects because they were in a price point I could afford and then you could have more of them so you can have more different colors or different types of materials in lots of tiny cracker toys then like Like, you know, it's much harder.

46:17Like now I've got like the daybed I'm sitting on now, which is the Royal Sofa by Nathalie Pasquier and George Swodin. Like this is a harder bad boy to move around as a student, you know. So I think I collected smaller objects to allow me to kind of be more able to move around and find things. And then I've continued to enjoy small objects and then putting them with larger objects as I've grown older. And this is after quite a cull of, I did do a purge of some of my objects at one point to like make space for another round. That's interesting. So you do do culls. So I suppose the question would be, at what point does collecting become hoarding, right?

47:05Not this point, not yet. Okay. So you're the right side of the line at the moment. Let's hope so. you know it's i live in fear of stepping over that line i try like if i have it i have it out i try i'm i get a bit i mean there's exceptions to the rule where i now have beautiful doors on my wardrobe by by rio kobayashi and so technically though everything that's in the wardrobe is inside a box let's say but in general everything that i have i try and have out because if i'm not seeing it and enjoying it, then maybe I don't need to keep it. And that's my nod towards trying not to become a hoarder, I suppose.

47:46But it's tricky because then, you know, now in later years, I've been also collecting a lot more textiles. And so there's some things it's better not to have them out all the time, unless you like put them in expensive cases where you can control the light levels. So it's a dichotomy between, oh, I'm allowed to have some things in a cupboard now because it's better for them. There are some textiles that keep folded, but in general, I keep everything out. And I enjoy having it out. I like to see them. I like living with objects around. I find that comforting. Other people find it overwhelming. Or I have some people come and visit my house and count the amount of eyeballs staring at them.

48:30And you would count another pair with my dots. I would, yeah. There's a lot of faces in the house. Okay. Or things with faces. Why do you think that is? I don't know exactly. I think, I mean, as humans, we're always really drawn to anything that kind of registers as a face. So it's a thing that we do anyway. And then I think I enjoy these kind of masks or these kind of these conduits of identity that are normally in kind of mask form. So I have quite a lot of those. And then a lot of severed heads. Who knows why? Like not real severed heads. heads but you know heads like there's a lovely baroque angel wooden head that's on my wall that i'm staring at and she she may look a little bit worse for wear i just love that someone spent a long time carving this baroque angel to look that level of like unwell but yeah there's some good there's some good heads do you think you have an off switch when it comes to this kind of thing if you see something that you like the look of and catches as your eye in a charity shop or a flea market or wherever it might be can you walk away from it of course i can whether i want to it's another thing that would be a no then no i do i don't i i and also now like i mean i joke with my friends that the ceiling is still quite empty so there's there's another like side of the box that i technically could cover but i you know my walls are quite full so I do have to admit to having to be more selective now maybe than maybe in the past where I didn't have so many objects but then I didn't have so many walls you know the two things have grown together but at some point I'll have to move to a bigger house.

50:23Well I was thinking you know you're sitting on a Nathalie de Pasquier piece you know behind you is a rug that you designed a Gaetano Peche light, it's all extremely high quality stuff. It's not like you've got piles of newspaper in the corner and, you know, bits of old dog food. Actually, there is a bit of dog food. I was going to say, I mean, Wilma does have a habit of hiding bits of treats places, so I do have to do a hunt for the rabbit ear every once in a while. Yeah, but I guess what really strikes me about this flat is that it's obviously so Bethan, right? It couldn't be anyone else's space, which I love about it.

51:04But also actually the bones of it are beautiful. You know, you've got this parquet floor, such a lovely big window, such light, really nice light coming through in this space as well, isn't there? And a great view of the rooftops opposite. So it just makes me think, what did this look like before you got here and what attracted to it? Was it the bones that you went for? I knew of this building, I think a lot of people that move to East London know of the building because there's not that many of like, there are some Art Deco buildings around, but there's not like, I don't think I know of as many that are like domestic ones.

51:41like there's the i can't remember what it's being used for anymore but there's like one that's got you know where art deco hits the egyptian aesthetic with the kind of colored it's got beautiful colored tiles and columns outside of it but i think it's now a a worship space or it used to be a bingo hall yeah and so there are some beautiful facades around but yeah so this i knew of this building and I did joke when we saw like when you see the walkway even when you come in downstairs it's kind of green and pink kind of zigzagging handles it already feels like it's somewhere that probably I would live it does yeah um so I do feel like we we came to view the flat here and it it looked like the building had been painted in my color preference that's amazing so I was quite happy with the fact that there's rules of the building that can't you know like it's it can't go beige it's colors are mint green pink and blue so this this gives me comfort and yeah the building has very big big windows and my flat in particular most rooms have wall to floor windows so the room we're sitting in right now this face is row lane which is a small um side road so it's more quiet and then my other two windows in my library room and my bedroom these both face out onto the courtyard where we have like a fountain and so the there's a really nice light quality in the flat and then yeah the parquet floor I um I installed quite soon after I moved in like yeah I've done bits bit by bit I've like I've done some changes to the flat so I think you'll find many people connected with martino gamper will have a version of this parquet floor because it's a company that he um he's he made friends with or work with so we there's it's like you spot a martino friend by the parquet and um then i put in these cylinder radiators that i've always loved these kind of industrial they're great they're very architectly those bethanyan you know oh well you know you see it's all in there it is it's i think my dad approved of these i reckon he would have done so i changed the radiators because i felt that they suited the building the the space more and i did the kitchen and i did my own my own ode to the previous bathroom tiles of other flats with my color choices and at some point i'll refurbish the bathroom a little bit more unusually i'm waiting for a project where someone commissions me to design bathroom tiles and then I can I can fully take over that space but yeah the bones of the building were drew me very much to it and then obviously I've I've chosen to fill my flat with quite a lot of stuff so without my stuff it's quite a big flat in some ways well I mean on that how how would you feel if it wasn't filled with your stuff like I suppose how do you feel personally in more minimal spaces?

54:53My default is not minimal spaces. So I feel more comforted when I am sitting in a space where there's objects and things. If it's like piles of the newspaper that you were talking about that aren't curated piles, the comfort level will change. But in general, I enjoy going to people's homes and spaces where there's objects and things kind of around I have enjoyed a more minimal space but it normally then is very like curated minimal you know what I mean or it's because the architecture of the building they've done a lot of built-in formal like the the way in which the kitchen is built in or the cabinets or whatever is the nuance of the architecture is then creating a language that's there more present so then I can I can vibe with a more minimal if it's like that but in general most places if you just have them without anything in them I find them too too lonely it's so interesting isn't it the way that we'll differ on that yeah it's different people find different things comfortable you know and yeah my my comfort is with a few a few more things a few colorful things yeah yeah well what about color then i mean is it that sort of art deco palette the shining palette as you call it is that is that what really resonates with you or is it just color across the spectrum i like lots of different colors i think because this building already had a connection to pastel i went with that a little bit maybe if if this building had like dark brown brickwork or some other like features that would be maybe I would have a different palette response okay and then I think just during COVID or just after COVID was really the first time I'd ever painted like the house where I'd or been in a house where I've been allowed to paint you know the walls so I think my foray into this was maybe I did I mean I have a yellow wall and a green wall in here so it's not like it's one color everywhere I still managed to have more than one color but I think I still played it quite safe in terms of I've seen I've been to other houses where people have got much stronger colors and I think when I repaint the house again maybe I'll go one step braver and go for something more stronger I suppose I've I'm very comfortable or I have a more experience around color on smaller things because I've always collected objects and placed color into spaces that way so for me learning what happened when I painted a larger area of the house I'm still learning this if you get I mean where I think other people maybe like I was very jealous of people when I was a living at home that were allowed to paint their bedrooms you know a color or even if it was wrong it's that idea that they or they painted it and didn't like it It's that thing of being free to try it and then having a response to it.