Charlene Prempeh: Why More Space Isn’t the Key to a Happier Home

12:18Charlene Prempeh:So I was like, oh, personal space. I'm like, lols. Go on. Yeah.

12:21Matt Gibberd:Well, you know, you're in the engine room of life, let's say. Young children, a lot going on. Busy work schedule. Yeah. Out of interest, because I think we all struggle with this a bit in relationships. How do you negotiate that alone time with James and who's looking after the kids and stuff? And how do you make sure that that side that you clearly need, you need time to yourself? You said you like going on holiday on your own. Yeah. You like eating out on your own even. You know, that's really interesting. How do you deal with that side with him?

12:52Charlene Prempeh:He's been really aware of that being something that I need from when we met. And often, actually, it will be like, I think you need some time.

13:06Charlene Prempeh:He'll call it before I call it. Are you sure that's what his inner voice says? I need some time. Maybe. Is that some compilation of the two? So I think for both of us, a key way that we get, because I was thinking, actually, another way that we get time to ourselves is, like, exercise. So James runs. And so, like, that's his moment to kind of do his thing. I've had a yoga practice for a really long time. And so then I'll go off and do yoga. So that's kind of a big part of the negotiation. We are quite good at rotating around who's out when. I suppose we're not one of those couples that does like everything together.

13:47Matt Gibberd:Yeah. So if like one of us is out on an evening,

13:52Charlene Prempeh:then like another great moment of alone time is like the kids go to bed as early as possible. depending on what's going on that day, but like seven, eight. And so then you've got the rest of the evening to like do your own thing. Like I'll often come home and James is like sat on the balcony, just like with a light on, just reading or something. So I think, yeah, we try and negotiate that time once the kids are in bed here. And we might just spend time in different rooms in the evening when we're both here. Like there isn't like, like obviously we'll speak, but there'll be sometimes like James will be down here and I'll be upstairs.

14:28like in the tv room so there's kind of that as well okay you mentioned space earlier on obviously

14:34Matt Gibberd:space was a premium by the sounds of it in in the place you grew up in yeah um yeah you wrote a piece for world of interiors didn't you about our constant quest for a bigger home for more space and you were sort of making the point that that's a bit of a futile quest maybe yeah and like within

14:55Charlene Prempeh:limits right yeah like i like i said as someone who grew up in really confined um environment i'm not like and there's real issues in london with people not having this but i'm not talking about kind of like overcrowding like there is that that is a problem it's one that i like had experience of i'm not saying that but i think i think it's really interesting and this will be interesting what your response to this is as someone who's moved out of london um i know a

15:25Charlene Prempeh:right and they want I get that they want more space for their children to run around um they want more space for their stuff um but I was always really keen to the kind of remain and it's just a personal choice to remain in the I suppose the nexus of London because I think Like, yes, space is valuable, but so many other things are of equal value. Like, having access to culture, to me, is really valuable. Having, like, different types of community all in one space, which London has in excess, right, is really valuable to me. um being close to people I've had long connections with um is really valuable to me and so I think just on balance I think the idea of space as the first and primary indicator of what a happy

16:31Matt Gibberd:home is going to be is just not how I rank Vince yeah I totally agree with that so out of interest then let's say that you were looking for a new home i know you're not but let's say you're moving on and you were coming up with a short list of criteria like the main things that you needed what would be at the top because it if it's not let's say it's not space then that's not the number one thing what what do you think would be well i was thinking about in the way that we do

16:58Charlene Prempeh:because i'm constantly looking for holes in my life and i was thinking about what i miss about being in but I used to live in Borough yeah and the Honk Copperfield Street and what I loved about living there was how many food places were close to me and I didn't realize how integral that was to my life and I don't have that here so I feel like if I was to move it'd be number one or two would be having places to source primary ingredients that I love really close by like walking distance like four minutes maybe three minutes so like that would be quite high i'd say always always always a tube and i mean tube i do not mean overground i do not mean some random railway i mean a tube because i lived in crouch end um when i was for argument say 27 i can't remember it was like it was many minutes ago I lived in Crouch End um in my sister's flat I can't remember where she'd moved to if she moved to Brussels anyway I was living in her flat um and for it wasn't for long for six months I barely went anywhere because there was no tube I sat there I ordered takeaway and I watched tv and I read and don't get me wrong there's there was much pleasure in that but if i don't have a tube near me there's just lots of things i won't do okay like suddenly it's like that's just a hassle no thank you no thank you i just think i like the idea of life being about more yeses and i think for me a tube facilitates that so that's definitely because there's so many areas i love which i couldn't move to because i don't have a tube yeah okay well that's a really good answer so i'm getting

18:55Matt Gibberd:the sense that the the cultural stimulation of the city is what's most important to you yeah absolutely yeah so the food thing then yeah i did write this down you know what did you say you said um meal times are almost spiritual did i say that yeah i'm profound aren't i i thought it was quite profound i thought it was quite profound so because and that obviously comes from your childhood so

19:18Charlene Prempeh:what what were meal times like when you were young well it's funny again it's a thing that you look back on at the time when you're a kid you're just like oh whatever like just give me a chicken nugget and let me live yeah but like especially now like looking back like my mum had no money and she's like feeding four children right and we ate like we ate like we were rich like when I looked back on it right it would be like lamb stews and like um there's this thing that Ghanaios make called chichanga, which is like meat on a stick. And it's like the meat is marinated with like ginger and onion and chilli.

20:03Charlene Prempeh:And she'd make this kind of, like she'd make chichanga on this stick and it was like delicious. My obsession with chicken absolutely started at my mum's table. And we'd have chicken with jollof, but there'd always be like salad and broccoli and she didn't like the tap waters and we'd always have evian which i'm now or evian and vos i fluctuate between the two but they're only waters i'll really drink um if i'm gonna go bottled there was never ever ever a moment in that house where i felt like we didn't have enough food there was always if anything too much food and we'd all sit together and have dinner i suppose it was the most abundant part of our lives which i hadn't again actually until this very moment I didn't really thought about.

20:46Matt Gibberd:That's really nice. Yeah. If you think back to those abundant meals then what's the emotion that you get from it?

20:53Charlene Prempeh:I think that's how my mum's passed away.

20:55Matt Gibberd:Oh, okay. So I'm feeling quite sad.

20:56Charlene Prempeh:God, I'm going to cry. I'm not going to cry. I'm okay. I'm fine. Really, they were quite shouty. So like, it's unfair to say all Ghanaian parents are shouty but it's quite a like, but I don't know if it is untrue. It's unfair but it might not be untrue. Do you know what I mean? which is like different like it was loud i didn't i don't think i knew how loud it was so i went to friends houses where it wasn't do you know what you mean like work our day and i was like oh people don't just scream each other across the table the whole time it wasn't even out of anger really sometimes it was but it was mostly just like a constant hum um and there's like lots of like ribbing in our family yeah so there was just kind of people just constantly being kind of mocked and shouting mocking um there wasn't much music oddly um at the dinner table anyway um and it wasn't yeah it wasn't kind of i think back on it it wasn't like conversation it wasn't kind of like we sat down and was like how was your no one cared how your day was okay Okay, just banter.

22:06Charlene Prempeh:Yeah, it was just banter.

22:07Matt Gibberd:Yeah.

22:08Charlene Prempeh:Yeah, that's what our – so it doesn't sound – it wasn't kind of spiritual. I don't think of it as spiritual in this kind of calm, like, meditative way, but it was very, like, connected, and that's a different type of spirituality.

22:23Matt Gibberd:That's amazing. That's what family is, isn't it? Yeah, that is what family is. Family is this massively dysfunctional mess of energy and chaos and contradiction.

22:33Charlene Prempeh:Exactly. And I think the meals that I've had on this table with the family are not dissimilar. Because obviously you've got one kid, the three-year-old. He's kind of got a bit better now. He loves to throw things. So you're just kind of like, you're just sat there in that kind of textbook, Charles throwing food on the table, throwing food on the floor way, which is quite annoying with this table. So you have like things that just get stuck in the middle of the glass. But so like he's throwing things. Lucky's screaming. I'm trying to pretend none of it's happening. And like James is trying to kind of bring an element of civilization to all of it all.

23:14Yeah, it's still kind of hectic.

23:17Charlene Prempeh:We're not quite at that kind of bantering stage with the three-year-old yet. There's a bit of that between the two of them, but not much.

23:23Matt Gibberd:To what extent would you say that we repeat the patterns from our childhood like that? because you know you've grown up in what was a by the sounds of it a pretty um riotous environment in a good way but also sometimes challenging as well so how do you bring that into your own home I mean does do you need do you need some of that chaos it's funny because it's just in like having

23:51Charlene Prempeh:this conversation with you you start to think about it all right and it's like what I didn't And part of that chaos was the actual space. Yeah. Like, there was stuff everywhere. Like, my mum was a hoarder. Like, again, at the time, I didn't have the language for it. I was just like, why are there four different sofa sets, like, in this one tiny living room?

24:11Matt Gibberd:Really?

24:11Charlene Prempeh:But there was just stuff everywhere. And because she also, she was building a house in Ghana. And so she'd get this stuff and she'd be like, oh, it's for the house in Ghana. But it would never go to Ghana. So it was just there. and so it's funny because from a like aesthetic um perspective i've definitely like the opposite right so you like when we were doing a tour around the house you noticed there's nothing in this room yeah nothing in this room and i think that has been a direct response to how much stuff there was growing up. Yeah. And yet, and yet, in terms of at least the ambition, I don't necessarily nail it in the doing, but the ambition I have for the way we live our lives in the house is very much my mum.

25:07Like I bought this table because I wanted to be able

25:14Charlene Prempeh:to have everyone around for dinner. Like, that was why I bought a table. I was like, I want a massive table so that we can invite other people around and cook for them. Like, when we moved in, there was only kind of one balcony. I wanted a double balcony so I could put a table in it and have people over.

25:31Matt Gibberd:Which is purely aspirational because you haven't put a table out there at all.

25:34Charlene Prempeh:I'm sorry, I've put a table out there. I'm an absolute joker. I've had, like, I don't know, four dinner parties in four years, like, in the end. Maybe add on a couple of lunches to that. But I like the idea of it. Like I kind of, I buy into that. I buy into the idea of the house being somewhere that is open to the people that you love. And people do come over. I'm just not here that much. But people do come over and there's, I was reading this thing actually the other day, which I really stuck with me. I think it was in the New York Times. but it was um this idea that the reason we don't have more people coming over and vice versa is because people are like increasingly obsessed with their houses being perfect and so the idea of people coming around becomes this huge fit in your head because your house has to be pristine and the meal that they serve has to be like have a like 98 or 20 ingredients in it and it has to be this kind of like experience right and what i grew up in was this idea that people were just coming in and out of your house there wasn't like it wasn't an event and i'm not saying that i haven't in any way replicated that here it's a bit more like that in margate because people are just wandering around it's like it feels like being back at university but in london everything is organized and like it's arranged right and i kind of i don't know i i love the idea of bringing back that sense of with the people close to you there being a bit more fluidity between your spaces and for you not to feel like you have to present this idea of perfection when people come over like if you can just like accept that the house is just the state the house is in i think we'd all be much more comfortable having people in and out yeah it's a bit of an affliction

27:26Matt Gibberd:isn't it i agree with you i completely agree with you and it doesn't need to be because i don't care if there's like food on the floor.

27:34Charlene Prempeh:Like I don't care. Like I don't care. I just want to sit and hang with my friends.

27:38Matt Gibberd:Totally agree. Can I ask about your father? You can. So what? You can. Well, so tell me about him. There you go. Tell me about him then because you grew up with a single mum. So what's the story there if you're happy to share it?

27:58Charlene Prempeh:No, I'm happy to share it. My dad, my mum and dad broke up when she was pregnant with me.

28:01Matt Gibberd:Okay.

28:02Charlene Prempeh:And he lived in Ghana. And so she lived here. So he lived in Ghana the whole time I was growing up.

28:08Matt Gibberd:Okay.

28:09Charlene Prempeh:In a place in Ghana called Denta. His house was a very different scenario, actually. It was like a bungalow. I guess in some ways it was more similar to how I approached. There was nothing in there. It was a real kind of, maybe, is that a bachelor pad kind of idea? That there's nothing in?

28:27Matt Gibberd:Maybe, yeah. Or serial killer, I'm not sure which.

28:30Charlene Prempeh:They're the same, no?

28:35Charlene Prempeh:But there was like nothing in there. The one item, I didn't spend that much time with him. The one item I remember in his house that I really loved was this bar. He had a bar with drinks. It was like bottles of spirits and stuff. And the whole setup with the shakers and whatever. And actually, maybe it was from that, like a massive cocktail person. um but i remember i remember that and he said he kind of really carefully selected every bit of furniture um because he had the space the energy and the money to because he wasn't taking care of four kids um so yeah he was he was in ghana very different very different setup okay so how much of him did you see like barely any not much until i was at university

29:26Matt Gibberd:Did you seek him out more then or?

29:28Charlene Prempeh:No, I think it was just, I don't know. I think maybe it was kind of like longer summers. And so like I was more intrigued about Ghana. And also it was a kind of a moment, I think, when everyone, it really kind of hit a new scale with the Year of the Return. Have you ever heard about the Year of the Return?

29:49Matt Gibberd:No.

29:49Charlene Prempeh:I can't remember, I can't actually remember what year it was, but it was maybe about five, five to 10 years ago. I'm not going to call it because I can't remember. But there was this whole kind of wave of African-Americans and the wider diaspora returning to Ghana with the idea that Ghana was the homeland. But the beginning of that started many, many years before that, where everyone who had moved out of Ghana, second generation, were all coming back to Ghana, usually at Christmas, to reconnect with the country. So it kind of coincided, I suppose, with me wanting to feel like I knew more and was a bit more Ghanaian, but just a bit, yeah, just kind of understood the country more.

30:34Matt Gibberd:Yeah, I totally understand that. I think that's a real, such a strong instinct. It's a homing instinct. Yeah, it's a homing instinct. It is though, isn't it?

30:42Charlene Prempeh:Yeah.

30:43Matt Gibberd:I think we all have that. We want to feel connected to where we came from.

30:47Charlene Prempeh:We do. And I think, I feel very lucky that I'm from Ghana and it's, like, yes, I love it because I'm Ghanaian. But actually, even if I wasn't from Ghana, it's become, when I say recently, I mean, like I said, like the past five or 10 years, it's become a real focal point for like the global black community. like and like brands and stuff like people are just excited about Ghana um like I worked on a project about it was when the story was born so around three years ago where Adidas wanted to understand sport culture in Ghana and it wasn't because I was Ghanaian it just so happened that that's where they wanted to learn more about and I was working on the project I got to go to Ghana and do that whole project and I kind of love that that it shows up again like the music scene in Ghana is like a massive thing globally um so yeah so it was I suppose it was the beginnings of all of that and um is your dad still alive my dad's not alive either okay so can I ask you how that

31:53Matt Gibberd:relationship developed then as you got older I mean did you were you close to him or I wasn't

31:57Charlene Prempeh:close to him and he passed away because how old am I now so both my parents passed away about 11

32:05Matt Gibberd:years ago so I was quite young okay um I'm sorry to hear that that's tough no it's yeah it's not um

32:12Charlene Prempeh:it's not ideal it's not ideal sorry yeah yeah it's not it's not ideal but um it's strange now because I I had kids after both my parents um after both my parents died um and you think as your kind of or I thought not you it's all very personal but I thought when I was um in like in my 20s that I understood what it was to parent right and that I was like an adult now and I was I suppose negotiating the relationship with my parents as an adult and I was an adult but what I feel like I really missed out on was the opportunity to engage with my parents parent to parent because even though i kind of objectively especially with my mum like understood like the sacrifice of what it took especially to raise like four children alone spending an entire day with my kids without james there i'm like do you know what you mean it's like it's a lot of work and i'm just like my mum raised four children solo and it's like just being able to I don't know have a conversation with her where she understands that I fully appreciate what that meant yeah um but also just I don't know kind of having a relationship where you're discussing things as parents just means you're kind of on a different level together um I never get I never got to do that and that that's saddened me lots of things saddened me obviously about my parents being dead but that

33:53Matt Gibberd:is one of the big things yeah I see that that's really difficult so as a parent yourself do you feel like you're working with a blueprint though or do you feel like you're slightly having to find your way? I think

34:12Charlene Prempeh:generationally anyway there's gaps right between how our parents raised us and how we think we should raise our kids now.

34:20Matt Gibberd:Yeah they had no idea what they were doing.

34:22Charlene Prempeh:We have less idea. We have less of an idea. So there is that anyway but yeah you're right it's not like I can go, you can think back a bit to how you were raised and it's definitely I think like my husband is from the midlands um english and i think of myself as ghanaian culturally like that's how i grew up even though i grew up in london and we definitely both bring parts of that to how we raise the children but also yeah i i do also very much feel like it's like flying by the seat of our pants like is that allowed is that not is that allowed this week like there is that kind of sense and we're working it out as we go along and like what like right now like our oldest like i mentioned to you earlier our oldest has started steiner school yeah and that is actually having a huge effect of how we live life at home because they he's not allowed any screens which was one of the main reasons we wanted to move him there so the school insists outside of school time

35:28Matt Gibberd:he doesn't have screen time yeah so there's no screens at school and outside of school

35:31Charlene Prempeh:no screen time um they're not like they're not averse to kind of um the odd like cinema trip or like even maybe like them watching like a tv program at the weekends but like definitely during the week um and then we can like definitely no like ipad action or any of that or phone or any of that stuff going on um so that means we have to entertain us so when we're at home it's like hi like you have to entertain yourself um and so there'll be these moments and they are rare at the weekend where like lucky and story will be down here doing like lego um james might be kind of like listening to an album and i'll be like cooking or reading or something but there's like silence really there's like the quiet in the house that um i don't think would have been able to exist before screens were removed as an option good for you yeah i feel quite smug about it i'm

36:31Matt Gibberd:I think you should. Thanks. I completely agree with it. I think it's amazing how children can sort of wire themselves to be able to deal with not having everything laid on for them once you just take it away.

36:49Charlene Prempeh:Yeah, I thought there was going to be much more pushback. And this is why I kind of said to you earlier how many pieces of furniture in the house are used as their dance props. But they started doing these, I should start filming them actually, just for our own sake to have like in years to come, these ridiculous dance routines together because they just need to do, they need to find something to do. Yeah. And I like that because otherwise they just both be sitting there doing their own screen situation.

37:23Matt Gibberd:So you must have had though always someone on tap when you were growing up, whether a sibling or, you know, a million cousins to do stuff with?

37:31Charlene Prempeh:Yeah, but I actually spent a lot of time watching TV.

37:33Matt Gibberd:Did you?

37:33Charlene Prempeh:Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I think about growing up, one of the main visions I have of myself is like cross-legged watching TV or inexplicably, my mum used to read The Sun. So I also have these visions of being sat near the TV reading The Sun. and like that is the two kind of things i would be up to in the house more so than like because i was my brother who closest in age to me with my brother my cousin who's living with us um roy was a boy and they used to just terrorize me so like i would just ignore them and yeah my one space of son is the fact it was a sun newspaper is terrifying but yeah but that actually you know

38:20Matt Gibberd:we talked about tv in a in a sort of aspirational way haven't we all screens in an aspirational way but of course what you described there i think is the reality of a lot of households which is tv is a great distraction actually for you it's like some some time to just get some space to yourself

38:35Charlene Prempeh:right no exactly and i um honestly i am very much of like you do what you need to do yeah like i'm not i am not when it comes to kids i am not like oh this is like a hard line yeah i carry lollipops around yeah yeah for like emergencies yeah dummies yeah just like have a lollipop um i remember at the necropolis in greece and like story meltdown don't you worry so no i'm not like pre-rotonical about any of it but um just for this kind of for this period and again i don't also i i see life in this house and it has been it's been three or four years now like how it happens in waves like the house is different all the time right now i'm like no screens blah blah speak to me in a year like i don't know what's going to happen so you went to oxford university what did you study i studied politics philosophy and economics so were you were you a boffin at school boffin do we still use do you not i love the wonderfully wonderfully wonderfully 80s.

39:41Charlene Prempeh:Oh, you were boffin. What about a swat? I was boffin or a swat. You know what? I was, I had boffin elements to me. But in all honesty, I also like spent a lot of time being naughty with the cool kids. Like, I wasn't, it wasn't like an either orphan. But I was very, like, aware of my, another big part of Ghanaian culture is education, right? So there was no, they didn't put there was leeway to like not study hard. But also from when I was really young, I was aware of the fact that, like I said, we didn't have any money. And so education felt like the best, if not for me anyway, felt like the only route out of that.

40:32So it wasn't, yes, I enjoyed reading.

40:36Charlene Prempeh:I've always really enjoyed reading The Sun to start with and then other things as I grew up. But I also, yeah, I kind of studied hard because I wanted a different life.

40:50Matt Gibberd:How do you explain that? Explain what? Why you felt like that.

40:58Charlene Prempeh:Because it's easy to kind of romanticise this kind of like bustling household, right? and like you said there were moments where it could be amazing there were moments where it weren't where it wasn't sorry but underpinning that I was also always really aware of the stress that my mum was under with regards to money just like we had like a electric meter so it was like having to pay for that and like making sure there was money for that that we never went on holiday like I knew there was things that she wanted that we couldn't afford right and it was it was just there the kind of concern about money was always there like a kind of program running on your laptop um which didn't allow space I suppose for other things that you might want in your world like I kind of I think back now and realize like my mum was um over the years she was many she did many different jobs but she was a seamstress so it was like a sewing machine in the house and um there would be this would be in the remember there's just like stuff everywhere so like in the dining room like the I think dining room that the kitchen was split in half with like the kitchen bit and then there was like this kind of space near the kitchen bit and there was like a sewing machine in there along with another sofa and blah blah blah I remember once coming home I think I was I was still at sixth form at this point I went to sixth form around the corner from here at City Nislington College and I came home and we were going I was going out my friends that weekend or that night it was that night and I was like I kind of had done like a like a really vague sketch of this dress that I wanted and she There was always material and stuff in the house.

42:47Charlene Prempeh:And on the spot for that night, she just made me the dress. And it was black. It was made of a kind of chiffon material. And it was off the shoulder. And it had these kind of wide sleeves. It was asymmetric, so one wide sleeve. And then the sleeve here was short. And your arms came out of there. And then it was kind of ruffled and at the bottom. and she made that for me through a vague badly I can't draw like a badly drawn sketch um within like half an hour and she made clothes for money like it wasn't like a pastime I just kind of think imagine if she'd had the space to like explore fashion design from from a truly kind of creative and intellectual perspective versus a perspective of need and it's that I suppose that's often I think what can be most um lacking when there are when there aren't resources in the house right is to to explore your potential in different areas I think I definitely wanted that for myself um I wanted that for hopefully the family I thought I might have in the future um and also I just like nice things and that was that was something I kind of look back on I think is really funny is that mum also just really liked nice things so yeah I wanted to pay for nice things I get that so it sounds like to some extent you wanted to um

44:34Matt Gibberd:be the best version of yourself that you could but do you think that there was also something about wanting to enable yourself to flourish in a way that maybe your mum couldn't like you've just

44:43Charlene Prempeh:described yeah and i think it's not i don't think that was a conscious thing yeah but our self-conscious is probably like most of the outcome of our lives i think it probably was there and i think there was an expectation from my mum as well i think her thing was like Like, she'd raised these four kids. She did this. She'd done that solo. She'd made sure that as far as she could that we weren't lacking anything. There was almost a sense that the least you could do is sort yourself out. Do you know what I mean? Like, someone's made all of these sacrifices for you. Can't then just be like, I'm going to mess around.

45:26Charlene Prempeh:Like there was, yeah, there was an expectation that the generation next would do better. Yeah. Yeah.

45:36Matt Gibberd:Were lots of people from City and Islington College going to Oxford or Cambridge? No, no. So how come you did? It actually started off with a conversation.

45:51Charlene Prempeh:So I studied maths, English and sociology when it's City and Islington. And my sociology teacher, after our mocks, John, I can't remember his surname now. I wonder what on earth he is. But John, I got, like, I just did really well in the mocks. And he was like, have you thought about Oxford? I was like, no. He was like, you should think about Oxford. And he's like, if you're up for it, like, I'll help you work out the stuff with the applications and whatever. and I thought okay cool which is quite kind of like now I look back on it I'm just like okay I'll do it then I think though that's not dissimilar to how I kind of live my life now I'm always quite like okay cool do you know what I mean like sure if someone's like let's do something I'm like why not I went rock climbing the other day on the cliff I've never gone climbing indoors and I'm just like hanging off this place in Norway so I've been kind of just like that's my vibe so yeah I I was like, it could be like an adventure of sorts.

46:58Charlene Prempeh:I wasn't like, I didn't think I was going to get in. But it was like, it felt like something interesting to do, if you know what I mean. And then obviously I got in. So there I went.

47:15Matt Gibberd:And when you got there. Yeah. What, did you have to become a different version of yourself? or were you completely authentic to the person that you had been? How did you find that? Oh, I think it was really hard to be an utterly authentic version of yourself.

47:34Charlene Prempeh:I think partly because at that age, you do not know what that is. It's like a really funny time to get to, like, university, right? You're 18. It's your first time solo. It's the first time taking care of yourself. And you're surrounded by a bunch of people that you don't know. but then in my case it wasn't just that i didn't know those individuals i didn't know the whole setup of the world it was like it was like moving to another country where they all knew each other so this this was like what i found most amusing within that first kind of freshers week are that how do you all already know each other yeah um because i was next door to a wonderful wonderful wonderful woman who's remained a dear friend of mine um called Imogen Mavis and Imogen was like she's like from just outside um Bruton in Somerset I hope she might be like she's just very posh she's like from outside Somerset and Imi like knew every other posh person there and they all knew each other so like on that first night when we got in she was next door to me and she kind of came in and said hello, blah, blah, blah.

48:47Charlene Prempeh:And she's like, I'm going to this party at my friend's house. I was like, how do you have friends? And so we went to this party where obviously Chaterina actually also knew everyone else at the party. So it was, and like, Imi definitely became like, I don't know, my guide.

49:05Matt Gibberd:Yeah.

49:06Charlene Prempeh:I'd say to some extent to that, my university experience, my university world. it was a world that yeah it was very it was all the things that people think is it was very posh it was very privileged it was very white i was the only black person in my year at my college um so yeah you could go about being your authentic self but there'll be a limit to how much it's like do you know what i mean how much conversation you can have when your references are so different So it wasn't a case of trying to hide anything, but it was a case of like trying to connect.

49:45Matt Gibberd:Yeah, you've got to shapeshift a bit, haven't you?

49:47Charlene Prempeh:You have to shapeshift a bit. And I suppose different parts of you will be emphasised. Like obviously the reason that we were all there was because we cared about things, I suppose, academically. So what was authentic and what was really enjoyable was like the level of engagement around kind of culture and news and politics and for like that to be not embarrassing. Like those could be conversations that you'd have. And also it was the first place where, or my first experience of like putting on dinner parties. Because everyone was around our house for dinner the whole time. We didn't have dinner parties.

50:28Charlene Prempeh:Do you know what I mean? That's quite a different thing. Because there'd be like 40 people at my house at one time with mum. But like at uni there was yeah there was this kind of constant putting on of dinner parties and we moved most people in my college I was at St Hugh's most people stayed there in their second and third year because it was a big enough college campus-wide for people to do that but me and my friends we all moved out in our second year to Wilton Way and our house was chaos but we'd have we'd have all of these dinners and people be around we have parties the whole time so it felt like it felt very grown up in that kind of way of being able to host it's cool so let's move on to talking about this place

51:13Matt Gibberd:and and your life here um so we are in a victorian terraced house flat fronted with sash windows and you're on the upper floors of it so there's someone lives downstairs yeah i know that because I pressed her buzzer probably like everyone else that comes to visit you so what was your first encounter with this and and and why did it appeal to you so we were living in Margate um at the time

51:42Charlene Prempeh:and we're always planning on moving back um and for so many places within at the time I was very preggers when we were um house hunting and having to come back and fall from Margate to few places And you spoke earlier about like criteria, right? And at the time criteria was like buy a tube station somewhere that we wouldn't have to move like because of school or any of that kind of stuff in any like immediate future kind of way. I wanted to be kind of near my sister and like my mates. So that meant it was actually quite a broad criteria for looking through. Also, we were like zone two was the other thing.

52:26Charlene Prempeh:And for similar reasons about being near the tube, I wanted to be able to like get around. We're moving back to London, but it's a B in London and to be able to get around and do stuff. So, but again, this just left things fairly wide open, right? I imagine most people have like a clear idea of the type of house and also the area. But we saw places in South. we saw places um though that wasn't near my sister but like we looked around like black horse road we were like we were just quite like um open to where it would be but when we came to see this it looked that we did a massive refurb on this it looks very very different there were like four people with like a flat share and there were four people living here but i i didn't really about myself i quite like stairs and like there being kind of floors i kind of when we lived in um se1 it was like a massive open space but we had a kid there i think then i realized that with children there's something to be said for floor separation um and this is over three floors um I liked how much light there was in here um I like that the original features um still existed I like the kind of size of the kitchen how it kind of went onto the balcony yeah it was just like I was like oh okay and area wise I was like oh I just have to walk over the stadium to get to my sister's um super central like I went to college around the corner like Like literally, it's now flats, but right opposite there was my Annette Road campus, which is where I did English.

54:11Charlene Prempeh:So even though I grew up in East London, North London held like a sense of home. And I was like, yeah, this felt right. It made sense.

54:19Matt Gibberd:Yeah. Hi, folks. A quick interlude to remind you that alongside the podcast, we also film house tours for our members over on Patreon. on. They're a chance to come with me inside the homes of some of my guests and to have a look at the rooms and the objects that we talk about in these conversations. Members get access to the full archive so that's more than 20 long form tours and there's new ones being added every week. So far we've gathered around the kitchen table with chefs like Margot Henderson and Anna Jones, we've loitered in gardens with Chris Packham and Dan Pearson there's been studio visits with artists like David Shrigley and Sue Webster and also lots of designers such as Max Rollett and Matilda Goad becoming a member also helps me make more episodes so if you enjoy the podcast and want to support it in some way joining over on Patreon would be hugely appreciated there's a link in the show notes or just search for homing with matt on the patreon website or app if you haven't come across patreon it's p-a-t-r-e-o-n thanks for listening and back to the conversation i'd love to sort of find out about your everyday rhythms in here because we talked about um your spiritual meal times yeah but i know that i know that reading books are important to you as well as you showed me around there's a lot of books here there's a lot of amazing first edition books yeah things like jack kerouac's on the road and and so on why are words important to you why why why have so many books around you i kind of mentioned that i would like sit and read the sun as a way of just like zoning out from the chaos at home but as i kind of grew up i think a way in the way it is for like

56:13Charlene Prempeh:Like, this is not special. Like, books became a sanctuary. And also, I think, a way of calming my mind. Like, there's something very meditative about reading a book. Because all meditation is, right, is doing the one thing and your mind not being scrambled. And I find when I'm reading, I'm fully engaged with the reading. There is nothing else going on in my mind. um for me for reasons that I'm sure there's been studies on it needs to be a physical book like I don't read Kindles I don't read on an iPad like the tactile nature of books I also I kind of really enjoy um in terms of words themselves being really important I think some of my the greatest moments of connection I felt have been through like use of language I think with books in particular you can really get into kind of like the granular detail of what it is that the author is trying to like I read a lot of fiction I do read some non-fiction but usually it's a lot of fiction um and you get right into kind of the granular detail of who a character is um in a way like in film you have to make a certain amount of assumptions about what that what that color is underneath it.

57:38Charlene Prempeh:And the same with theatre. Like, I love theatre, but you're also, like, filling it out, like, filling in some of the gaps yourself. And a lot of it's about your own kind of interpretation. But I love with books how you can just really, the author has a space to really kind of get into the psyche of the characters and the human condition, right? So I suppose I use books and most kind of art, I suppose, as a way of better understanding myself, like the world we live in, the way we communicate with each other. And like in the ideal world and in moments, what a book can be for me or what words can be, a way of kind of changing my understanding of what the world is.

58:32Charlene Prempeh:Yeah, that's when it can be sublime.

58:37Matt Gibberd:totally as is is there a particular time of day when you when you read generally or

58:41Charlene Prempeh:how do you find the time for it people ask me a lot because it's just like yeah when are you yeah when are you reading yeah and it's like i read before i go to bed and i always have a book with me everywhere i go if it's not a book it's a new yorker okay so travel yeah yeah so um whenever I'm on the tube, in between anything, I'll read.

59:04Matt Gibberd:That's amazing. Do you listen at the same time? Or is it just as in, would you? No. No music.

59:12Charlene Prempeh:Sorry, I had the horror on my face. I'm like, no. Definitely not. No. I find someone wrote a piece about this the other day. I often, with newspaper articles, will read a headline and be like, yes, but never actually bother to read the article. um I think they were saying that they think headphones should be banned in public I agree no I do not listen to headphones when I'm out because I feel like it's dangerous I don't understand how people are just trotting around the streets like listening to things when like a car might be able to run you over someone might be calling you from behind being like someone's about to shoot you like I don't I find it mental so no I do not listen to music or podcasts or storybooks, audio books, I think they're called, storybooks, when I'm walking around.

1:00:02Charlene Prempeh:I think that's something you should do in your home or like, I don't know, maybe like on transport, but not when I'm walking around. No. Sorry, I've got quite a few opinions about it, no.

1:00:13Matt Gibberd:I like that. Strong point of view. Yes. It's good. I like the trotting thing as well.

1:00:18Charlene Prempeh:People trot.

1:00:19Matt Gibberd:Yeah.

1:00:23Matt Gibberd:I think that's good. Yeah, strong. What about aesthetics in here then? How would you describe your aesthetic? I think when you're young and you're like looking for furniture and stuff for a house, I think it's more just like,

1:00:40Charlene Prempeh:it can just be a bit more functional, right? It's like what can just go into the home? So I've got a sofa that I don't hate, I can sit on, et cetera. um and when we were moving here I wanted to kind of think about every not every object but like the key pieces that were going to be in the house and so I wanted it to be I didn't want there to be loads of stuff like I find again it might be about the kind of clutter growing up um um but also just kind of like the clutter of our time there's just so much going on the entire time

1:01:20Matt Gibberd:do you mean your stage of life do you mean or our society i mean our society yeah i mean i

1:01:25Charlene Prempeh:absolutely mean our society there's so we'll be bombarded with so much information and there's so much we need to or we feel that we need to be doing and thinking about from like we had that

1:01:36Matt Gibberd:conversation earlier about creatine creatine yeah yeah like even that it's like what vitamins should

1:01:41Charlene Prempeh:we be taking and like that takes up quite a lot of headspace and like what should I be eating and where should I be going and what holidays should I go on what books should I be reading and what shows should I be going to see both like art shows and theatre and how should I be raising my kids and all of this stuff right and it's like I wanted to counter that with the space um so So I think that was the kind of thinking, like, how can we create a space that felt, at least in times, because don't get me wrong, there's times that this place is such a mess, but at least there'd be moments where it can feel like the chaos didn't exist in the rooms.

1:02:21Matt Gibberd:Yeah. And are beautiful things important to you? Why is beauty important?

1:02:29Charlene Prempeh:I feel like there's a lot of joy to be derived from beauty. I really appreciate things that are well designed. Partly because I really love the idea, or I feel really moved by the idea of someone sat thinking about the best way of doing something and how that can be kind of a way of reaching out. Like in the same way that when we were talking about kind of literature and how I very much see that as a tool for connection, right? It's a way of being like I, or words being like me too. I feel that too or I understand. And in some ways in that sense, I kind of think of literature and books as a service to people.

1:03:24Charlene Prempeh:it sounds so cheesy but like it's something there's something that's sort of love in that process of making something like that and I feel the same about things that are beautifully designed that the time has been taken to a say something about who you are and what you think is important um but b for someone else or for lots of other people to derive joy so yeah that's why kind of the beauty of something is important to me yeah I really like that framing of it

1:03:53Matt Gibberd:the idea that an object is some expression of love towards other people yeah and i really think with things that are designed well i think it i think it is absolutely that it's a part of that

1:04:07Charlene Prempeh:person and it's their it's their seed right out in the world and i don't know you guys i've got lots of like creatives in my life and i know how much of their soul is bared when they make something and how like as much as that is beautiful it's also there's like a pain to that i know i saw um i saw cleansed last night the sarah kane play okay um at almeida which is like very much about the kind of the struggle we have to connect with people and with ourselves to some extent. So I've been thinking a lot about that this morning.

1:04:52Matt Gibberd:Well, on that then, when you look around at the objects in this room, for example, are they all forms of connection? I mean, do you see them, do you almost see them as sort of people in some ways? Because everything you showed me had a story behind it.

1:05:08Charlene Prempeh:I'm not mad. I don't think these are none of the objects of my friends.

1:05:16Matt Gibberd:Do you not?

1:05:17Charlene Prempeh:it must just be me then no i do not think these objects are my friends no but i do see them as like you're right they they represent something yeah they represent like an idea that i hold dear or a moment in time that's important to me or an experience that i enjoy having and they create that experience or they represent that experience um or they represent like a person or an industry or a practice that I respect like I think you should look around your space and what it should evoke is a smile you should your eye should be should fix on something and there should be yeah there should be like a positive emotion attached to that thing versus oh god need to get rid of that like I like and I think the moment where you're like oh god what's oh there's a whole book on there is the whole like sparking joy thing um but i do think that you should look at things and be like oh great love that so yeah they're not people but they are um most of the things in this space are individually important to me i feel connected to

1:06:35Matt Gibberd:yeah a lot of it is work by your friends or people that you've got to know yeah through your work um And then one of my favourite things is on the wall opposite you, which is there's this very big empty wall and then there's a small painting of a chicken leg.

1:06:54Yeah.

1:06:56Matt Gibberd:And, you know, you told me this whole story about how you love chicken and chicken's really important to you. Oh, I love chicken.

1:07:03Charlene Prempeh:Love it more than life.

1:07:06Matt Gibberd:So, you know, so that's great. So you've got this whole story and actually, you know, I like what you said about it makes you smile because when you hear the story behind it, it's very funny and it does make you smile. And that's a really nice thing.

1:07:19Charlene Prempeh:Yes.

1:07:19Matt Gibberd:Elevates your everyday existence a bit.

1:07:21Charlene Prempeh:It does elevate your everyday existence. I think everyone should have a piece of chicken on their wall. I think it will change the world, actually.

1:07:30Matt Gibberd:One leg at a time. One leg at a time.

1:07:33Charlene Prempeh:I really wish, I really hope one day I own a chicken shop. That's all I actually want from life.

1:07:40Matt Gibberd:he's a chicken shop okay good well we talked about food yeah and we know that's important to you what about your um the way that you navigate through the world and the way you feel about things and your overall health and well-being and so on so forth how does how does your home help you with that would you say i think two main ways i do yoga here do you yeah yeah so um

1:08:09Charlene Prempeh:In the kind of multi-use room upstairs, like TV, kids play, like whatever, the reason there's so much space in the middle is to just allow for lots of things to take place. So I do yoga upstairs a lot, actually, like a few times a week.

1:08:25Matt Gibberd:With someone who comes in or do you do it online?

1:08:28Charlene Prempeh:I do it online or something. I just do it by myself.

1:08:30Matt Gibberd:Yeah.

1:08:31Charlene Prempeh:But also, like, I love my kitchen. I don't know whether you're the same, but, like, if I have, like, the kit for something, I'm, like, much more likely to be excited about doing it.

1:08:42Matt Gibberd:Oh, you're a kit person. Oh, my God.

1:08:43Charlene Prempeh:If I get, like, a new yoga outfit, like, I'm all over yoga more than usual. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:08:48Matt Gibberd:Yeah, I may have bought a few running tops in my time for that reason. Yeah.

1:08:52Charlene Prempeh:Like, there's a fun to it. And, like, I love my kitchen. And I love all the things that I – like, I love my knives. Like, all of that kind of stuff. I love the little desk, like, the still tops and whatever. So then cooking and, like, buying things for the kitchen is, like – I love being in there. I basically cut a long story short. So it means that, like, eating well and stuff is, like, something that's easier to do because I'm at home and I'm cooking because I want to. So I think in that sense the house really allows for that.

1:09:29Matt Gibberd:Yeah. So what we talk about on this podcast a lot is this word homing, it also is an internal thing. It's the idea that you can kind of home into yourself somehow in the sense that your body and mind is a home that you carry around with you all the time.

1:09:44Charlene Prempeh:Yeah.

1:09:45Matt Gibberd:And I wondered if there was a time in your life when you felt a bit disconnected from that somehow. You know, what have been the kind of challenges and how have you overcome those?

1:09:56Charlene Prempeh:So I would say one of the really difficult times because both my parents died within a year of each other. So my mum died on New Year's Day. Who does that? And then my dad died towards the end of that same year. And I think that creates a level of internal chaos that I, well, I suppose you could anticipate. Like, it's probably not a surprise. But then a really, an ex-boyfriend who was also a very close friend then died in March.

1:10:34Matt Gibberd:Oh, God.

1:10:35Charlene Prempeh:So it was like, yeah, it felt like this kind of domino moment. And it's, you know, you know, at the time that you don't feel great. But it's interesting that in hindsight, like grief is kind of like a moving beast, right? But that early grief, for me anyway, because again, everyone's very, very different. that that early grief was dealt with primarily by just like a certain level of disconnection. And you kind of just focus on, well, for me, on anything other than the reality of what had taken place.

1:11:17Matt Gibberd:Did you? Almost a distraction?

1:11:18Charlene Prempeh:Yeah. Until eventually, it's so kind of cliched, until eventually I went to Goa and I went on a yoga retreat by myself. We don't know how much I like being alone. I went by myself for 10 days and did yoga like three times a day, ate a lot of cashew nuts and bananas, read a lot, dreamt a lot, which I thought was really interesting, and really vivid dreams.

1:11:50Matt Gibberd:What kind of thing did you dream about?

1:11:52Charlene Prempeh:Like just like, like, like reconciliations with like the people that passed, like, or just like conversations about things with people that passed. It's really odd.

1:12:02Matt Gibberd:Amazing. How long after was this then? This was probably eight or nine months afterwards. Okay.

1:12:11Charlene Prempeh:And then yoga, like moving on from that, that was a real turning point in like, not feeling like I was running away from myself. and then yoga became a massive thing for me after that. I kind of practiced a bit beforehand, but now it's definitely the thing I reach for first when I'm like feeling like I'm not with myself. Like you said, I'm not honed in. So like it's the first thing I kind of reach for.

1:12:42Matt Gibberd:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So do you think that you were processing the grief through your body physically? yeah and i think we i think we do yeah i think i still am like that's what i mean about it being

1:12:55Charlene Prempeh:a moving beast i don't i don't think that it's like i know that the stages of grief and you're meant to like hit acceptance at the end like i don't think that's how it works no i think it's all constantly going on simultaneously and in cycles i think i started grieving all over again when I had kids and my mum wasn't here. And I think I'll grieve again in other moments, maybe when they have kids or, like, when I feel like I need her and she's not here. I just – it's not just yoga. Like, I started therapy, and obviously that has helped massively.

1:13:34Matt Gibberd:You're still doing that now?

1:13:35Charlene Prempeh:Yeah, I'm still doing that now.

1:13:36Matt Gibberd:That's good.

1:13:36Charlene Prempeh:I love going to therapy. Like, I don't, like – I feel like it's – When I say an indulgence, I mean like in the, obviously not like in like ice cream than indulgence, but it's one of the most wonderful things that you can do for yourself. Like I usually go on Monday mornings. So like I'll go to therapy and then I'll go to yoga. And then the day starts at like 12 or whatever.

1:14:04Matt Gibberd:That's a strong start to the week.

1:14:06Charlene Prempeh:It's a really strong start to the week. I don't know, maybe it's an age thing. maybe it's my life or life just generally.

1:14:20Charlene Prempeh:But increasingly that idea of like taking care of oneself as like an essential part of living, like not something that like exists on the kind of periphery of like, or as something you do when you've got time, But that being the central piece in order for everything else to work has become more and more evident to me that I need to check in on all the things, like both physical and mental, just to maintain some degree of functionality.

1:15:01Matt Gibberd:personality yeah good for you i think that's really good nice i agree with you but it's really yeah i think it's excellent hygiene yeah like emotional hygiene yeah do you do therapy um i have done lots not not right at this moment i'm not but i have done um with a few different people and i think it's um i would yeah highly advocate it definitely yeah um but i think it's really good that you've kept it going especially if you find someone good yeah my therapist is brilliant yeah it's changed things it's been good yeah it seems to me that your work is a lot about uh championing people that maybe have been a bit neglected or overlooked yeah in some way is that fair to say why are you attracted to that idea i hadn't really thought about it it's like i never

1:15:54Charlene Prempeh:i don't know i hadn't thought about it as an attraction in that way but yeah it's definitely something that i come back to again and again but i found that some of the most inspiring stories

1:16:04Matt Gibberd:are just the ones that haven't they just haven't been told yeah um and that's kind of like so like

1:16:12Charlene Prempeh:in terms of like the historic stories and then even like in contemporary culture now it's the same like as a like as a writer you're constantly part of your job is this idea of like digging out new stories finding new people new movements um kind of yeah the new kind of clusters of thought um so yeah it's always kind of quite exciting when you kind of discover something that you can gift like when we're kind of talking about this idea of like how we all give each other things i suppose it's something that yeah i i want to where i can give back yeah yeah that makes a lot

1:16:57Matt Gibberd:of sense so on the subject of telling stories one of your sons is called story yeah the other one's called lucky yeah i mean how cool is that for a start but tell me about those names why those

1:17:09Charlene Prempeh:names lucky came about because james and i were on holiday on some random island in thailand i I can't remember what it was called now. And on this island, a bunch of people had bought these huts in the 80s, which they rent out. So they'd owned this for like 20, 30 years. And they bought it when they were really young. And they'd rent it out and they'd come back and stay there. But then they rent it out when they're not there, so on and so forth. And there was this guy, this older guy, this American guy, who's an anthropologist. um and he was like the loveliest man in the world and his name was Lucky and we were just like oh I bet you he's this nice because his name is Lucky you can't be like an a-hole and be called Lucky like it's just mental um and so when we found out we were pregnant which was quite soon after that um like a year after that i think we were like oh we're gonna call we're gonna call him lucky and it was generally like it was gender neutral we'd be like if it's a boy or a girl it's gonna be called lucky story is almost like the opposite story to that in that we were in there's this vintage really lovely vintage shop in margate again can't remember what it's called just like got green um fronting but we were in this vintage shop and i was pregnant at the time and this woman was like shouting at the top of her voice at her child who looked really cool but was clearly just terribly behaved as the way all children are.

1:18:50Charlene Prempeh:And his name was like, Story! Story! And we were like, Story, great name. And that's what we took out of that exchange and we called him Story. That's so funny. So yeah, one after someone who felt like an angel and one after someone who didn't.

1:19:05Matt Gibberd:That's brilliant. so in terms of this nominative determinism then which you're clearly going for yeah how's that

1:19:12Charlene Prempeh:working out for you lucky is lucky lucky pretty lucky for far as i'm concerned um i don't know i don't want to like jinx anything but yeah he's pretty lucky so far yeah um no disasters yet yeah and story is definitely the more complicated character i'd say but he's also three years old

1:19:35Matt Gibberd:So like, who knows?

1:19:37Charlene Prempeh:But I don't know, he feels, you feel like there's a lot going on beneath the surface. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm very interested in discovering as his vocabulary extends.

1:19:45Matt Gibberd:Yeah.

1:19:46Charlene Prempeh:Yeah.

1:19:46Matt Gibberd:That's brilliant. In terms of you and James then, how long have you been together?

1:19:51Charlene Prempeh:It was our 12 year wedding anniversary on Sunday.

1:19:56Matt Gibberd:Oh, fabulous. What did you do? We actually went to Elliot's. Elliot's.

1:20:03Charlene Prempeh:We went to yoga in the morning.

1:20:05Matt Gibberd:Yeah.

1:20:05Charlene Prempeh:And then we went to Elliot's on Borough Market.

1:20:07Matt Gibberd:Oh, nice.

1:20:08Charlene Prempeh:Have you been to Elliot's? Yeah. Yeah. For lunch. For lunch, because Sam and Brett, who own Elliot's, are friends of ours. And we spent a lot of time there over the years. And it was their birthday.

1:20:18Matt Gibberd:Okay.

1:20:19Charlene Prempeh:So Elliot's birthday, 10 years, I think. Elliot's is 10 years birthday. So we had like a lunch there, did yoga in the morning. And yeah, it was like all very chill.

1:20:31Matt Gibberd:That's lovely. That's a perfect anniversary, I think. So that's a good innings. Well done. How does it work between the two of you? How does it work? How the hell does it work?

1:20:44Charlene Prempeh:How are you not divorced? How does it work? It doesn't always work.

1:20:51Matt Gibberd:It never does always work.

1:20:52Charlene Prempeh:Yeah, I think for me what's kind of essential is that kind of balance between having things that you love doing together and having people that you love being with together and having space that you occupy together and then having lots of things that are your own. separate to the fact that like I like being by myself I also like um the idea of like going away and coming back together again as being kind of like a natural rhythm of a relationship um and for that not to feel like you're pushing any like both parties have enough going on in their own lives both kind of intellectually um in terms of work in terms of relationships that again it's kind of it's so cliched but you're kind of together because you want to be not because it's all there is um i think that's a big part of how it works like we have lives that we would love even if we weren't together and so yeah it's wicked to share that with someone but it's not there's no desperation involved in it so i think i think that's what what makes it work yeah when it does yeah makes a lot of sense um we've covered a lot

1:22:22Matt Gibberd:of ground but um given everything we've talked about how would you define the word home and what part would you say that it plays in your life I think home

1:22:37Charlene Prempeh:is about a certain release I think we spend so much time whether or not about like thinking about how we present ourselves right um in small and big ways it can be like the obvious things around like social media etc but it can even just be like in conversation with someone um in an interaction at the shop um and it's it's that kind of thinking going on in your mind about like what like what that person needs from you in that sense what you want them to think so on and so forth I think there's something about when you're at home and not physically but like at home in your body at home in a space at home with a person you're not second-guessing all of that you are just um a hundred percent who you are and that feels like enough so for me that's what I miss yeah what a lovely answer thank you um I've really enjoyed it Charlene me too you're very

1:23:43Matt Gibberd:funny and I think it's um yeah I really appreciate your honesty and openness and I think um that I I think people will be really interested to hear your story.

1:23:54Charlene Prempeh:Thank you. I appreciate you coming all the way down here.

1:23:59Matt Gibberd:Huge thanks to Charlie and thanks very much to all of you for listening along. As always, there's a house tour to go along with this episode, which you can, of course, watch if you're a homing member on Patreon. Members also get access to the full archive of tours. That's more than 20 tours that we've made over the last year or so. I should also say, actually, that if you're intrigued by the house tours, but aren't quite sure what to expect. We've recently made the Dan Pearson tour available publicly on our YouTube channel. So do go and have a watch of that. It's an amazing place and he's such a thoughtful and fascinating man, I think.

1:24:36Matt Gibberd:So you can find that by searching for Homing With Matt on YouTube. If you prefer just to listen along to the podcast each week, I totally get that. I respect it. I'm a huge audio person myself and I'm very, very happy to have you here. So thanks for being here. This episode was produced by Podshop with music by Simeon Walker. I will talk to you all very soon. Bye for now.