Chef Margot Henderson on Home, Food & Caring for Fergus

7:38Fergus Henderson:Hold colour, like electric things.

7:40Margot Henderson:What does that mean? You hold colour? I don't know.

7:43Fergus Henderson:It was all like...

7:44Margot Henderson:So colour therapy almost.

7:45Fergus Henderson:Yeah, yeah.

7:46Margot Henderson:Okay. I wrote this down. Was it Gaylord Hauser?

7:50Fergus Henderson:Yes. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yes, that's the guy.

7:53Margot Henderson:Yeah, okay, so she was a bit of a disciple of his then.

7:55Fergus Henderson:Yeah, which was brilliant. You know, we had cider vinegar and honey was our juice, was our cordial brown bread, molasses, no chocolate, carob. We had carob because it was all that. It was fun. I quite enjoyed it actually. My brothers struggled more.

8:13Margot Henderson:Yeah. Yeah. What did that teach you about food in general though? I suppose it's telling you that food and nutrition is very important, isn't it?

8:22Fergus Henderson:I thought it was not to be scared of unusual things. Okay. You know, we were, I definitely wasn't nervous of eating things that might be a bit strange. And, but I do remember going to some French people up the road and they had a green salad and there was just green leaves and this beautiful mustard dressing and chips and a steak. And I thought, wow, I mean, I think I must have been about seven and thinking that was so cool and precise where our salad would be pineapples sunflower seeds cabbage salad you know raisins everything was there and um and very nutritious lots of fiber but um and I really enjoyed mum was a great she's a great cook but in a different it's not it doesn't come from a cuisine but you know we were open to lots of food and I was, you know, I would eat oysters, smelly cheese, mushrooms.

9:20Fergus Henderson:Well, you have to like mushrooms, don't you? They just smell so good.

9:24Margot Henderson:You don't have to. Lots of kids don't.

9:26Fergus Henderson:But I remember getting field mushrooms and that smell with the garlic and just thinking if something smells that good, it's got to be. But I think it's about being open-minded about food and then mum actually became a food writer, So that definitely helped with the love of the restaurant.

9:47Margot Henderson:Okay, so tell me about that. Did you go to restaurants with her?

9:49Fergus Henderson:Yeah, we did. She wrote two books called Eating Houses in Wellington and one called Eating Houses in Christchurch.

9:56Margot Henderson:Okay.

9:56Fergus Henderson:And she did it with the mayor of Wellington, Michael Fowler and Jeff Kennedy. They were little – she sort of – she went to the mayor and said, look, give me some money, I'm going to do this book, it'll be good for Wellington. He said, no, but I'll do the drawings. And they became a team. and they were great books and at that stage in Wellington there were these it was sort of incredible restaurants like Le Normandy, El Casino, they were sort of very classic old school French, you know I had frog's legs for the first time when I was 15, you know but serious waiting and then it got into the more sort of wooden floors, casual dining that we know now but back when I was a kid even to get a licence in Wellington, you needed to have carpet in the loo, in the toilet.

10:44Fergus Henderson:That's how you would get a licence. So that sort of departure to more, you know, a bottle of wine on the table, more relaxed sort of friendly dining, like a bistro in France, was quite unusual when I was a child. But, I mean, Wellington had some really great, I remember going to meet Mum for lunch when I was at the convent school, running out of school, going to meet her and having an artichoke vinaigrette for the first time and learning how to suck the leaves. And, you know, it was fun.

11:17Margot Henderson:Funnily enough, I had a similar experience with my kids not long ago. We were in Suffolk and they had their first globe artichoke and it blew their minds. Yeah, it's just so brilliant, isn't it? It's just amazing.

11:28Fergus Henderson:And then, apart from the sucking, which is great fun, and the leaves and how you place the leaves on the plate, I mean, mine are obviously a great big chaotic pile, but an architect. You know, you can tell a lot by the way people put their leaves down on the plate. But then you get the heart, the jewel, the most special bit once you've pushed off all the choke. I mean, it's got so many layers of that to choke. It's amazing.

11:53Margot Henderson:Yeah, it does. So that's your mum. What about your dad?

11:57Fergus Henderson:My dad, journalist, and then went into PR, was in PR for years, and then moved to Christchurch when my parents split up.

12:08Margot Henderson:How old were you at that point?

12:09Fergus Henderson:I was 18. And, yeah, mum said, off you go. And she took his mother and so Granny Chook, Granny Chook and Grandad Jock, anyway, Jock was dead. Chucky comes to live with mum. She was going a bit dotty.

12:26Margot Henderson:This is his mother.

12:27Fergus Henderson:Yeah, and he went and lived in her granny flat in Christchurch and had a great life, ran the newspaper in Christchurch, married a new young beautiful woman, Marianne, and they had two children. So, you know, it was a good change of life, sort of, you know, a whole new life for him. Because my family are South Londoners. I'm not South Londoners, South Islanders. Sorry. South Island. You're a South Londoner. I'm South London now for seven years. Yeah, so they went to live in Christchurch.

13:09Margot Henderson:Okay, so you were 18. Do you remember much about the sort of unravelling of that relationship? Was that quite clear to see or were you quite surprised when it disbanded?

13:20Fergus Henderson:I could, yeah, no, it needed to be disbanded, but it was still very upsetting. Somebody came and said to me, oh, well, that's great, isn't it? That needed to happen.

13:30Margot Henderson:Okay.

13:30Fergus Henderson:Sally Siebel, my cousin, I said, well, it's still upsetting when your parents split up. You sort of have this idea, even if they're not happy, that they should stay together. But they weren't happy and they needed to move on. You know, Mum had been 21 when she married. Dad was 30. They were going. And then in the end they became very good friends in the end. So it was, you know, things had changed. and dad had been a grumpy old kid you know you know I think he was much happier when he moved Croce Church so it was good for everyone and mum went on to have many lovely relationships and new life sold the house moved to another house yeah okay yeah as you say it's still a sad thing

14:16Margot Henderson:when when your parents split up like that no matter what age you are um was there anything else in your childhood that felt challenging difficult I mean it sounds like the home is a lovely place to be but what what was the sort of what was what were the adverse conditions you're

14:30Fergus Henderson:operating in well maybe my parents not putting on very well yeah um my dad I think he got depressed he was depressed okay and um yeah I think he sort of lost his way and um I think you know he was a journalist but should have probably been a writer but never felt the confidence to be a writer But, you know, he was a very well-reared. He was a clever guy. But he, I think he got a bit low and maybe drunk a little bit too much, but in a slightly depressing way. And that's the worst one, isn't it? Not for the joys. That, I suppose, I wanted to get out. I left home quite young. So, you know, the Hutt Valley, you feel like you're stuck out there and the sticks.

15:19Fergus Henderson:I decided to go to this convent school, not the local high school, because it was closer to town. I was moving out. When I was 13, I was working out how to get out of the Hutt Valley. But, I mean, the Hutt Valley is a brilliant place as well, but it had lost, you know, for me I wanted to be in Wellington in the big smoke.

15:40Margot Henderson:Did you? Why do you think you did? I just wanted, you know, the excitement, the social.

15:48Fergus Henderson:I didn't just want shopping malls, you know, So, you know, and that's what the Hutt Valley was turning into. They were losing the shops. The shopping malls were coming. And, you know, McDonald's opened. And so I think I wasn't a conscious thing really, but I just think somewhere in me I wanted to experience different things. And I went to a great, I went to the school. I was sports mad. But, you know, I just wanted to be, I suppose, in that. It seemed exciting. It was right next to Parliament. It was an old building. It looked like sort of we called it cold. You know, I was sort of excited by the nuns, you know.

16:28Fergus Henderson:They were sort of crazy and weird. It all felt very different than the high school that I'd been going to.

16:34Margot Henderson:So did you get on well at school with your peers and things like that?

16:38Fergus Henderson:Yeah, I had good friends. I was good at school for a couple of years.

16:46Margot Henderson:Then what happened?

16:47Fergus Henderson:And then it all went wrong. I mean, I was really into sports and schoolwork and then I suddenly became more about, you know, I was became, I suppose, punk rock, took over, socialising, weekends, you know, the horses went, the athletics went.

17:07Margot Henderson:The horses always go, don't they?

17:08Fergus Henderson:They always go. Boys, horses, you know. So, yeah. and there was quite a big band scene in Wellington and there was a punk scene and it was really exciting and there was lots of bands coming from Europe and local bands and we were all running around after them.

17:32Margot Henderson:It's interesting, isn't it? I mean, punk comes up quite a lot. So Chris Packham revealed himself to be a big punk fan. Sue Webster was obviously a big punk fan. I mean, that's obvious. Yeah, that's obvious. Susie and the Banshees, you know, session.

17:46Fergus Henderson:I saw Susie and the Banshees. Did you? In Wellington.

17:49Margot Henderson:Yeah.

17:49Fergus Henderson:Yeah, we took great pictures of her. We were right. We were on the top. They'd always come to Wellington Town Hall, which was quite small. Saw the clash there. Sting, all sorts of bits. Susie was there. I mean, she's incredible.

18:05Margot Henderson:That's brilliant, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

18:06Fergus Henderson:I don't know why they were all going to Wellington. But it must have been on the, you know, on the tour. Yeah. And you went to Wellington. You mustn't have made much money, but, you know, we were buying records and we were obsessed with the Face magazine and it would arrive three months after it had come out in London by the time it got there because it went on a boat. And we just, God, we just poured through it. I mean, sometimes to have less is better. You know, you appreciate it more.

18:36Margot Henderson:But what do you mean because it was the magazine and you all read it? Is that what you mean?

18:40Fergus Henderson:Yeah, we all read it, but also not to have, you know, not to be able, because now everyone's aware of everyone's culture. We didn't know what was going on, so we devoured it.

18:50Margot Henderson:Yeah.

18:51Fergus Henderson:And, oh, we just wanted to be in London, you know.

18:54Margot Henderson:Did you?

18:55Fergus Henderson:Yeah, that was what everyone just talked about, whether they were going to London or they were coming back from London because their visas had run out. You're either depressed because you aren't in London or you're depressed because you've come back. That's so interesting. What was it about London then? It was just, you know, Big Ben. Big Ben. You know, London was just the fashion scene and the music scene was what we wanted. It was cool. I mean, I think I arrived here in 84, 85, and it was so dark.

19:31Margot Henderson:Yeah.

19:32Fergus Henderson:There were no restaurants. There was nowhere. There were pubs, of course, but pubs can be quite dark as well. There wasn't the endless lighting that we have now. It felt much, I mean, it was very exciting. And we had a, you know, it's great to be here. It was much colder too. Colder here. Yeah, much colder. I mean, like, there was ice, snow, London. You couldn't walk down the streets because of the ice. I mean, it's warmed up a lot.

20:01Margot Henderson:Do you not get that in Wellington then? No. No? No. It doesn't get that cold.

20:05Fergus Henderson:You get ice occasionally. You have very frosty mornings, but no snow. Up on the hills a little bit. But in the South Island you do, but not in Wellington.

20:14Margot Henderson:Yeah, okay.

20:14Fergus Henderson:We have earthquakes. Right. We've got earthquakes. You know, you learn to drop when you're at school.

20:21Margot Henderson:Okay. Fire drill, earthquake drill.

20:24Fergus Henderson:And then they take you on trips on a bus from one end of the fault line to the other for geography. And it's just where you live.

20:33Margot Henderson:Yeah. That's amazing, isn't it? So earthquake is quite a regular occurrence.

20:37Fergus Henderson:Yep. I mean, well, there was a massive one in Christchurch a while ago. That was terrible. But Wellington has a few, but there haven't been bad ones.

20:47Margot Henderson:Yeah. So 1984, you came to London. Why was that? Was that to study or what were you doing?

20:54Fergus Henderson:I came to work and, no, I'd done with studying and I came, as I said, to see Big Ben. I was a bit in love with a British woman. Okay. And I came out, lived in Wimbledon, got my first job at Pizza Express and, yeah, and started a great life.

21:19Margot Henderson:How did you meet her then?

21:21Fergus Henderson:In Wellington. Her family were working there. Okay. And we were working at the Mexican cantina.

21:27Margot Henderson:Okay.

21:30Fergus Henderson:And then I came to London and we split up.

21:34Margot Henderson:Yeah, it sounds like she was a good passport to the place.

21:37Fergus Henderson:She was great, yeah. And her name was Benny, so I always say I'm going to say Big Ben. But, you know, we just had, there was a group of us that were from New Zealand, but I said to my best friend Frani, we are going out, we are going to meet British people. And she was very beautiful. I said, can you just try and smile, Franny? Because, you know, it does help when you're meeting people. Anyway, I'll do the talking. It will be okay. And we started to meet British people. But also not just. We had lots of New Zealand friends as well. But you can get a bit stuck and it's hard to branch out. And also British people seem very snooty and like, oh, they didn't like our accents.

22:23Fergus Henderson:We felt vulnerable as well. But you had to push through that and say, no, no, that's not a problem. And then I moved into central London. I was living under the post office tower. And I got a job at the National Gallery in the canteen. And I just thought my life was made.

22:41Margot Henderson:What were you doing?

22:42Fergus Henderson:I was cooking.

22:43Margot Henderson:Really? Yeah. Was that your first cooking job?

22:46Fergus Henderson:No, I'd had loads.

22:47Margot Henderson:But that was the pinnacle.

22:49Fergus Henderson:I was living in central London. I was working at the National Gallery.

22:53Margot Henderson:Yeah. simple what a sweet girl she was no it was great it was good so what so what was the moment where the sort of slightly career changing moment for you then from there I mean at that stage I was

23:08Fergus Henderson:more working to live to travel and I really enjoyed being in kitchens and when I worked at the National Gallery it was Justin de Blanc who was the caterer there all the food was made in-house so all the stews all the biscuits everything so it was really it was really good food and then I went my visa round I went to Australia and I started working in some really good restaurants and I decided when I was 25 that it was time to push myself forward rather than sitting back and it was that was the sort of I had been always cooking but sort of not really pushing myself like oh I'm happy in this sitting back in the kitchen so and then it all changed It's amazing what happens when you do push yourself a bit.

23:53Fergus Henderson:So what changed? Well, I got offered a job. No, a job came up. I was working at 192 in Notting Hill and I said, can I be the sous chef? And they said, no, I wasn't up to it. I said, fair enough. And then somebody offered me a head chef job. So I said, well, I have to take it because of the New Year's resolution. And I just think before, if I hadn't said that, push yourself, I wouldn't have taken it. I would have been too scared. and I just fought through the fair and also employed a lot of really good chefs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of the way I've learned to cook is through having great teams who have really helped me.

24:27Fergus Henderson:And, yeah, anyway, I was at first floor in Notting Hill and that was quite.

24:34Margot Henderson:So that was your first head chef job. Yeah. How long were you there for?

24:37Fergus Henderson:Not that long, about six months.

24:40Margot Henderson:Okay. What went wrong?

24:42Fergus Henderson:Well, I had to go home. I went back to New Zealand. The place was a bit of a struggle for me, actually. There was a sort of attitude. We got some really good reviews and everyone was a bit smuggy pants. I was like, this can change at any minute, you know. And it's sort of this attitude, oh, we're so busy. And actually this could change at any second. Be grateful to your customers. It was a bit of a wild old place. And I just also felt I needed to learn more and I sort of overstepped the mark a bit. But, you know, I was in there and I wanted to learn different things. So I went to work for Charles Fontaine at the Chop House.

25:24Margot Henderson:So the quality Chop House in Farringdon, yeah.

25:26Fergus Henderson:Yeah. And that was brilliant. He's so, you know, so strict and rules. And I hadn't really done that. I was a bit more of a hippie chef. So that was really fantastic. And I love Charles. And I once stepped over the line from the kitchen into the dining room. He went absolutely ballistic. You know, I just didn't know that I wasn't meant to do that. But he's very old school French, you know. He learned his head was shaven and they carried buckets of coal to make the walk-in fridges work. And if they got any coal on their jackets, they were beaten. They were beaten? Yeah, they were all beaten. Oh, wow.

26:11Fergus Henderson:Chefs are constantly being beaten. Not anymore, of course.

26:14Margot Henderson:Yeah.

26:14Fergus Henderson:But, you know.

26:15Margot Henderson:Did you see that then? What was the culture like in the kitchen then?

26:18Fergus Henderson:I mean, I never saw that because I just kept away from this place. I was too scared.

26:22Margot Henderson:Yeah, yeah.

26:22Fergus Henderson:But, you know, there's been, I mean, striving for all that perfection, you know, can be probably frustrating. But now we'd all meditate together for perfection. and restaurants are doing so well and they've got such, you know, we've moved along a long way. But I think this is with all businesses and all trades, it's all changed so much, how we respect the people we work with and I don't think you can say it's just one defining group of people but people do like to talk about chefs being a bit brutal. It's a brutal situation. You've got a lot of heat, you've got a lot of pressure all at the one time and no, I mean, I've been known to shout a bit, but I haven't punched anyone.

27:08Margot Henderson:It's good to know. And didn't you work at the Eagle as well, across the road from the chop house?

27:14Fergus Henderson:Yep, so I went over to the Eagle and that was a joy. I loved working for David Ear. He's such, he's a brilliant chef. His food came from Mozambique and Portugal because Zegar Hempman, his brother, grew up there. so really sort of Portuguese based food with Italian. We cooked, it was hard, you know, it was so busy, everyone was there. The Guardian was next door and everyone would come for lunch. You know, Damien Hirst, Jay Joplin, they were all in for lunch every day because it was such a new thing to have a pub with great food.

27:52Margot Henderson:Well, it was the original gastropub in London, wasn't it? And it was just fantastic. And it still is.

27:58Fergus Henderson:It still is. And it's got the same sense of how it started. I mean, obviously, it's a bit more competition now. But, I mean, we would cook 120, we called it plates of food because it wasn't really starters and mains. But really good quality, yummy, delicious food. And in front of us was just hundreds of people. It was quite a weird situation to be in because it's quite intense. Hence, usually you're a bit away, but at Eagle it's really.

28:27Margot Henderson:It's quite performative, isn't it?

28:28Fergus Henderson:Yeah.

28:29Margot Henderson:Yeah, I can see that. Was it there that you met Fergus?

28:35Fergus Henderson:Met Fergus there. Well, we had met one year before when he'd done a pop-up. We didn't call them pop-ups then, but he'd done a restaurant for six weeks, but they closed down after four, I think, but in Covent Garden called 17 Mercer Street. and his partner, Piers Thompson, came into the first floor I was working and said, oh, we're opening this club. And I thought, oh, I'm not going to be able to afford it. He said, it's£15 to join. I said, I might be able to do this one. Anyway, I went to the opening day and, you know, Rose Grey was there. All these foodie people I recognised across the room. It felt very exciting.

29:15Fergus Henderson:And Fergus cooked pigeon and peas. And on my plate I got pigeon and peas. I thought, this guy is amazing. This is so simple, so beautiful. This is what I'm going for. Anyway, a year later we met at Eagle and then I suggested we open a restaurant together. And we did, three weeks later.

29:34Margot Henderson:Three weeks later? Are you serious?

29:36Fergus Henderson:Maybe it was a month, but really quickly, the French House dining room.

29:41Margot Henderson:Okay, so the French House you opened together. And were you a couple at that point when you opened it? Mm-hmm. Okay, so that's intense.

29:52Fergus Henderson:Yeah, it was great. It was so exciting. We were falling madly in love and we were working together. I mean, it was intense. You know, Fergus hadn't worked in that many restaurants.

30:05Margot Henderson:Because he's an architect by training, isn't he?

30:08Fergus Henderson:Yeah, he went to the AA and I think he feels, well, he is, he feels deeply an architect. But all his architecture was about eating halls and basically St John, really. That's what all his projects were on. But we connected, well, we connected, we were connected, but in a food way as well. I was about to bone out all the quails and stuff them, and Fergus said, oh, no, we're going to cook them whole. And I just went, yes, of course, because I hadn't even thought about that because I was so used to, you know, everything boned out, chicken breasts. And so we poached the chickens whole. So I learned a lot from him and he learned from me as well.

30:55Fergus Henderson:Running of a kitchen, you know, all that, just the sort of basic straightforward things, running the kitchen, cleaning, cleaning, cleaning.

31:03Margot Henderson:Exactly. I read in an interview where you said you were in some ways in awe of Fergus at that point. What do you mean by that? What is it that you admired and admire about Fergus's approach to food?

31:19Fergus Henderson:Well, I just love it that he has a philosophy for a start and that knows to tell. I mean, I was just so about following along with the thoughts of somebody else and what they've been telling us and not necessarily agreeing with it. So suddenly we were discussing things and changing things and cooking exactly what we wanted to and what we liked and to cook slow food, braise things slowly, use the parts behind the fillet. I mean, I cooked lots of offal, but we were, you know, offal was a very, it was about different textures and soothing food and, you know, I just loved it. And he's a great guy who has a lot of inspiration.

32:11Fergus Henderson:He's got a great voice. He teaches with care and he always gives you the reason and the thoughts behind why he thought, I mean, the basic one, not to dice. Don't dice. If God wanted square vegetables, he would have made them or she would have made them. But, you know, now to look at a diced vegetable for me is quite tricky. But, you know, it's about letting things be themselves and not mucking around with it so much so that sometimes food can have 20 pairs of hands on it before you've actually got it on your plate and to let the ingredients speak for themselves. It all just, I mean, nowadays it's just so obvious, but at the time it was sort of very revolutionary and we were doing something quite different.

33:02Fergus Henderson:And also the joy of bringing British food onto the plate, that we didn't just have to be European and cooking boiled ham, parsley sauce and pies. I mean, Fergus really brought pies back to the way we thought. I mean, it's just using things like trottis. It's very, also his food is quite Italian, I would say. I mean, he calls it green sauce, but it's actually salsa verde, isn't it? He doesn't have pasta and rice, okay? but, you know, the sense we went to Italy together and we had a piece of sort of burnt rabbit and we just never forgot it. It was always just we always came back from Italy going less, less, less because, you know, the food is so simple and beautiful.

33:46Fergus Henderson:So that was, you know, it was about elegant food. Some people thought our food was ugly but we thought it was so beautiful and it may not have red peppers in it just to give it colour, you know, and it was quite brown and textural and more unctuous. Yeah.

34:03Margot Henderson:What was it like for you when Fergus opened St John?

34:07Fergus Henderson:Well, it was so exciting. Yeah. And, I mean, when we first saw the space, I was terrified, but he could see it so easily. He just got it and had that, you know, he's an incredibly confident man, Fergus, you know, very sure of his thoughts when it comes to food and architecture. so it was very exciting to follow along and see what he did and of course you know painted all the walls white all the big smoke rooms they cleaned them all up and they were going to be white and but even at the French house I was like uniforms that's a bit much but actually the uniforms at the French were the one of the best things it makes the seriousness of the waiter the waiter is the sentinel he should never kneel down the floor and take your order stay stronger let them come up to you that you know I mean be polite I'm not saying be rude and snooty but you know that is your job and to have that slight gap I think it strengthens the waiter as well and the uniform does help with that and it's very looks good too of course but you know the white walls are going up to the dining room I mean it was just going in there it was just so exciting we were all having a brilliant time but then he was off you know getting

35:26Margot Henderson:you know it was all going for him yeah he reached the stars at that point yeah and um and because he had such original things to say which i probably use a bit some focus's lines um but um you know

35:42Fergus Henderson:he he's got such a great original brain so that all came in and it was exciting but i was about

35:48Margot Henderson:having the babies okay well tell me about that then yeah i went baby gaga but i had the french

35:54Fergus Henderson:house so i kept the french house and melanie john's pateri was fergus's partner they went off the men and did saint john with trevor and um i um stayed with the little restaurant and had the babies but i was completely baby gaga but if i thought about it now i would not let that happen

36:17Margot Henderson:Well, tell me about that then. What do you mean by that?

36:19Fergus Henderson:I would say, no, I'm your partner. I'm coming with you.

36:22Margot Henderson:Right.

36:24Fergus Henderson:And I should have been a bit stronger. But, you know, I was loving having children as well. I wanted lots. Well, I had three. It's not lots, but, you know, it's enough. And we lived in Covent Garden, so it was great to work at the French house. I think work is such an important part of anyone's life and probably why so many women in the past have gone mad is because they didn't have work. And then you think you have to push your work through your children. No wonder they become pushy mums. You know, it all sort of makes sense. But if you have good work, you can balance your life out. And, yeah, having my restaurants has been a great strengthening for me and looking after my children, you know, because I needed to have both because looking after kids can be quite hard.

37:12Margot Henderson:Totally. It must have been chaos for you. I mean, I read something where you said, if I could get through a night without crying, it was a miracle. That's a full on statement. So what was it like that period?

37:24Fergus Henderson:I think I'm talking about being pregnant.

37:27Margot Henderson:All right.

37:28Fergus Henderson:I think I'm talking about being pregnant and working in the kitchen and you're really tired and, you know, and you've got a big tummy and your legs are aching. and, I mean, in the end when I had small, when I got, I ended up moving out of the kitchen quite a lot and becoming more, you know, discussing with the chefs. But we used to go in every day. I'd take my little kids into the kitchen, talk about the menu with the chefs. But we had so many great chefs that, you know, I think I was probably there more than they needed me to be. Okay. But, you know, I learnt from them, they learnt from me, And, you know, I think it's been important for me to be very involved.

38:13Fergus Henderson:And if it's your business, you can do all that, can't you?

38:16Margot Henderson:Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about this house. So we're in southwest London. What would you call this area? What do you call it? Stockwell. Stockwell. Okay. So we're in a Victorian terrorist house.

38:30Fergus Henderson:Yes.

38:31Margot Henderson:How did you end up being here and what was it like when you got here?

38:36Fergus Henderson:How did we get here? we were moving out of our beautiful flat in Covent Garden. It was quite sad.

38:42Margot Henderson:Why were you moving?

38:44Fergus Henderson:We'd sort of wrecked it and we didn't have any money and it was worth quite a lot. And it was, but people kept saying it's a mess, tell them we'll offer them less, but we kept saying we don't really want to move. But it was a time where houses were, they were pricey and we were thinking ease, but it was just crazy. And then I said, what about South London? And Fergus said, and it seemed close to Soho, which for us was the centre of the universe and not really realising that actually it was Shoreditch in the end. But my youngest still went to school in North London, so we needed to be on the Northern Line.

39:25Fergus Henderson:So we looked down here. We actually came down. The guy, the agent, was an hour late. So it was dark by the time he got here. I'm sure it was a whole ploy. I'm convinced he said it was the big house across the road. And this is the smaller house. But we sat in the black cab then and we sat in the black cab for an hour and by the time he'd arrived we were already in love with the road because we love our road. So it felt wider and it's got a good sense of space about it. Fergus said, yeah, I like this road. This is good. This is good. And so we'd already bought it before we'd even looked at the house.

40:02Fergus Henderson:And we needed to move. It had four bedrooms and it had a garden. And, yeah, so and we love Stockwell. It's a really lovely area. It's no tourists. Love the Portuguese shops and it's very quiet actually. At first it was so quiet that we were whispering in our own house because we're going, I mean, we'd been in Covent Garden for 20 years and the kids went to school in Soho Parish and, you know, We're used to noise and it was a bit scary sort of tiptoeing around because it was so quiet, but we enjoy it. You like it now? Yeah.

40:39Margot Henderson:Yeah, because you've got a lovely garden at the back with your wisteria and your lovely planting that you showed me around. It's got a very serene atmosphere to it. Do you feel that?

40:51Fergus Henderson:Yeah, it's calm. It's gentle. I mean, you know, it's not a big house, but it's, I mean, it's big enough. God, houses take a lot of work, don't they?

40:59Margot Henderson:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

41:00Fergus Henderson:Leaks, roofs, all of it. But it's a real pleasure, this house, and we've really enjoyed living here. We've probably ruined the neighbours' lives a bit. Way too many parties. Right. We were like, and at first I chopped all the garden down and they were a bit upset about that. I think they thought I was going to concrete it over. But now they're happy about the garden and we have less parties because our children have moved out.

41:26Margot Henderson:Okay. But, you know, and we're a bit older. Probably. Excuse the quick interruption. Firstly, I wanted to say a heartfelt thank you to everyone who listens to this podcast. The response to homing has been far beyond anything I've expected. I've really, really appreciated all the messages of support I've had and the many people who've taken the time to tell me how much they connect with the show. A special thank you, of course, to everyone who signed up on Patreon. Those memberships genuinely do help keep the lights on and make it possible for me to continue creating the podcasts and filming the house tours.

42:04Margot Henderson:Secondly, as the audience continues to grow, I'm beginning to look for a small number of partners for the show. If you're involved with a brand that shares homing's interests in design, nature, well-being, and the way we live, I would really love to hear from you. You'll find my contact details in the show notes.

42:24Fergus Henderson:Thank you very much, and back to the conversation.

42:28Margot Henderson:but on the parties thing it's you know you obviously like to have a good time and right

42:33Fergus Henderson:is that is that to be is that fair you're like to have a jolly yeah you're convivial

42:38Margot Henderson:bon vivas in some ways aren't you what why is that why do you like to live like that

42:45Fergus Henderson:i think people you know picks you up i love the social i love this i think you really make friends with somebody when you sit down at a meal together and then you know lunch and all its possibilities you know we could a lovely lunch that might turn into a bit of dancing um chatting to the whole table you know how you move around a table you might talk to this person that person sort of um yeah bringing people together eating good food drinking lovely wine it's a big part of our lives yeah and a bit of dancing on top yeah and a bit of dancing on top and is it usually lunch as well as lunch better than dinner well just because i like to go to bed so early these days yeah but lunches i find better but yeah but i'll also be having dinner next week with some

43:39Margot Henderson:friends so you know yeah here so it's obviously quite a convivial place it's somewhere that you gather with friends and family um is it also a place of privacy is it a place that you kind of

43:50Fergus Henderson:use to find your own space as well to be well once you've done all the jobs i know yeah it's um been it's very gentle yeah it's soothing it's a good place to sit to have a good think about all the stuff that's going on because you know we have busy lives there's a lot of different components whirling around um and yeah home is such a you know whatever it is whatever your home's like it is that sanctuary isn't it you walk through the door ah at home it's always lovely when it's

44:23Margot Henderson:all tidy and fresh and and i like the foliage all that sort of thing i think that brings in a lot of gentleness to the home too yeah so you've got a lot of art in here you've got this wall of sarah lucas works which is amazing there's lots of stuff above the fireplace and things what why do you like to live with art what does that add to your life looks great thought provoking um

44:49Fergus Henderson:i just think art is you know it just brings so much to your to your life to your thoughts um And whether it's sort of sad or joyful, it's, I mean, like books, they're telling stories, they're giving you just, I mean, how do they come up with all this stuff, artists? I mean, the reason why, I'm like, God, thank God I'm not an artist. But, yeah, I take a lot of pleasure from it. And I suppose a bit of it is also the pleasure of owning things a bit, You know, possessions, you know, having lovely things around that you love and that you're incredibly fond of. I think art works like that.

45:34Margot Henderson:Do you know quite a few artists?

45:36Fergus Henderson:Met a few along the way.

45:38Margot Henderson:Yeah. St John, the artist. Tell me about that.

45:41Fergus Henderson:Well, they started coming to the French first.

45:44Margot Henderson:Yeah.

45:44Fergus Henderson:And then St John definitely was. Fergus called me once I'm at the French house and he said, Sarah Lucas is in the restaurant. I'm like, oh, my God.

45:54Margot Henderson:I'm coming down. I'm coming down.

45:56Fergus Henderson:I missed her, of course. But she, yeah, all the YBAs, weird name, but they all were really enjoying it. They loved it. They got it where a lot of people were struggling with St. John, its whites, walls and things, and I just, they understood it straight away, that whole group and that friendship. They had studios around that area at that time. so it was a social buzz and that's what you want in a restaurant you want artists you want the people communicating they bring so much atmosphere um and you know just the argument why there's no art on the walls at St John well you're the art people and and just the hanging of the coats all of that that comes together there I mean there was just it was it was very exciting and then Then we started bringing them home to, you know, they came to our home.

46:50Fergus Henderson:We cooked for people at home. And I was doing catering as well, so I started catering for Sadie Coles and lots of galleries, Jay Joplin. So that was all happening. So it was all coming from all directions. Yeah. And we made some great friends.

47:07Margot Henderson:Yeah.

47:07Fergus Henderson:Friends for life.

47:09Margot Henderson:Yeah. So there's no art, no flowers, no music. Is that right? That's Fergus and John. Yeah.

47:16Fergus Henderson:Yeah.

47:17Margot Henderson:Do you carry that through to Rochelle Canteen as well?

47:20Fergus Henderson:It did a bit, but not so much now.

47:22Margot Henderson:Yeah.

47:23Fergus Henderson:I've got tired of this wall. I don't think it looks any good. It needs, because Fergus has shaker hooks all around the walls. Yeah. So in a way that is the art. But I've got one wall that's just looking a bit like sad. So we've been hanging some, we had a Kai Otoff, amazing painter, up for a while. We've had Don Brown who did this beautiful rose. And we've, at the moment, got Johnny Shankid, who's just published a beautiful book of photographs of Suffolk landscapes. And we've got three of his. And it looks, I mean, it's quite funny. I'm really enjoying it. Let's get some art. And we're talking about having another show at the end of the year.

48:07Fergus Henderson:So it's quite, it's just very whatever happens. They can leave it up for a few months. It's not like we're being a serious gallery or anything. But we don't have music because the noise or the chatter of the people is enough, isn't it? I even find it hard eating with music in the background. But we love music. But this place, I think to eat with music, I mean, not always, not so strict. Actually, at the pub, because I've got a pub in Somerset, three horseshoes. Sometimes it can be almost, the silence can be too much. So you do need a bit of background music. Music has got many places. It's just getting it right, isn't it?

48:49Margot Henderson:So how would you describe the Rochelle Canteen and the Three Horseshoes then in terms of a sort of, you've obviously built on the experiences of where you've been previously. You've obviously built on the St John legacy to some extent, but how do you feel like, what does it represent for you, I suppose, the way that you especially approach a place to eat?

49:11Fergus Henderson:I mean, they're both very different places. Rochelle grew out of a bike shed. Melanie and I, with three small children each, needed to be very flexible and we were doing catering and, you know, we didn't have a licence for years so the catering was very much part of what we were doing to make money. And now, since COVID, we've got our beautiful plastic tent and a vine that we get about 10 kilos of grapes from every year. Oh, right. And we freeze it, juice it and freeze it and make sorbet. But, I mean, the vine this year is really looking. There's so many. You can see all the grapes starting. And it comes out of one pot.

49:52Fergus Henderson:But, you know, the feeling is, I suppose, well, I mean, the essence is grape food. For me it's food first. But the staff, warmth from the staff is to have a convivial place but with rigour. and, you know, we have flowers sometimes and not always, you know, and the flowers come and go. The team is the most important thing really. It's how the kitchen and the front of house work together. And the food is British but sort of moves towards Europe as well. So, you know, modern European.

50:28Margot Henderson:Yeah, I suppose I think of abundance, generosity.

50:33Fergus Henderson:Yeah, warmth. Yeah, generosity. You want it to feel generous. The pub is very generous. Nye Smith is the chef there. His food is really strong, strong in flavour and style, and the person that he is, you know, I can just see Nye in his food. So that's what we want, people to express themselves and their creativity, to look at what's around them, their produce. So Somerset is just amazing for that. I mean, the producers, we've got Westcombe up the road, somebody else's, everyone's got a pig they're breeding in the back of their garden. Both places we buy whole animals. Hector, my son's the head chef at Rochelle, and he's butchering away this huge hind leg of beef today.

51:26There's a lot of, I think that makes it very important

51:30Fergus Henderson:and the love and they need to know where the produce is coming from to have good produce, animals that have been well looked after, fish that has come from the right place at the right time because we must look after our oceans as much as our farming. Yeah, and vegetables. Even in Britain our vegetables are getting better. They are really starting to, we're getting really beautiful vegetables that aren't great big old brutes that are just being picked because they weigh a lot. So, yeah, I mean, it's a very exciting time, if not a bit more competitive. Everyone's a chef these days.

52:13Margot Henderson:So tell me about getting back to the home. Tell me about what are your sort of routines, your everyday kind of rituals here? How does it support just your everyday life?

52:22Fergus Henderson:You know, it's pretty basic. You know, it's washing, cleaning. You know, Fergus is not so well these days, so there's a lot of caring for him. and I think that's really important to have him with us and not be just sending him off to some, I don't care, or something. So Ferguson's a big part of every day. The garden is very important. So, I mean, if I'm ever a bit upset about something, I'm in the garden digging because that helps me. Cooking, that lovely kitchen. I love being in the kitchen cooking. So, yeah, and also relaxing. Watching television or having friends. I mean, yeah, it's about using.

53:04Fergus Henderson:It's not a very big house, so it's easy to use each room. It's not like we have a whole area that's not being used. It's all very functional. And do you yoga here where we're sitting now?

53:17Margot Henderson:Do you do yoga?

53:18Fergus Henderson:I do Adrian.

53:20Margot Henderson:Adrian?

53:21Fergus Henderson:Adrian, she's on YouTube. I love her.

53:24Margot Henderson:Oh, right.

53:25Fergus Henderson:She's really lovely.

53:26Margot Henderson:Adrian, the yoga guru. She's just the sweetest person in the world.

53:31Fergus Henderson:I feel she's talking to me.

53:33Margot Henderson:Really?

53:36Fergus Henderson:Yeah. Yeah, so a bit of all of that. And it's nice to have outside, inside and just hanging out. You know, we do a lot of hanging out. And sometimes I say in the weekend, we are staying south. We're not going over the bridge. But I love crossing the bridges. I think that's been one of the loveliest things about moving south is that we're constantly seeing the river, being with the river, and the river is amazing. I wish we had more, you know, wish we were all doing more on the river. I mean, what a great city. It's a brilliant city. I love it.

54:15Margot Henderson:And are you a tidier?

54:16Fergus Henderson:Yeah, I'm always tidying.

54:17Margot Henderson:Yeah. But are you someone that's bothered when things aren't in their place?

54:21Fergus Henderson:Well, not, I mean, there's bothered and bothered. no people who are bothered would say i'm not bothered okay but you know i like it i love it we do have a cleaner yeah and when she's been life is always better yeah that's a good day it's the fresh day so things get out of place but then they come back into place you touched

54:42Margot Henderson:on fergus there and his his illness so for those people that aren't aware can you just explain what that is and when he was first diagnosed.

54:51Fergus Henderson:So Fergus got Parkinson's when he was about 34. That was, I mean, I hadn't even really heard of Parkinson's. But we learned pretty quickly that we were very lucky because it's not a life-threatening disease. And now he has got early-onset dementia, which I was thinking, what's going wrong with Fergus? This is so odd. anyway I googled for the first time I'm never I'm not a googler of illness and they seem to go hand in hand but you know he's doing really well he sometimes has bad day worst days and other days sometimes he's I mean it's meant to be routine it's meant to be very important and we're not so good at routine but you know Fergus comes to work with me the everyone that's very kind at work with him you know and he's sometimes I think is he having a nice time and we're in a social atmosphere and I said is all are you all good and he'll say I'm fantastic and he loves being social so much he doesn't want to sit at home and just be quiet all the time so we you know it's about a good balance and um he's such a gentle warm person is you know that soul and spirit of him is very much there.

56:06Fergus Henderson:But we do miss him waking up in the morning saying, what's for lunch? But he still wants his lunch, don't worry. Food is very important still. Yeah. And he's actually quite fit and his Parkinson's, because he's got two wires in his brain. He's got DBS. So he moved like crazy when he first got Parkinson's. It was a whirlwind, just didn't stop moving. and then he got a battery here with two wires into his brain in Queen Square at the hospital there and it changed our lives. He stopped moving.

56:45Margot Henderson:Really?

56:46Fergus Henderson:I mean, like a whirlwind. He could still move. But it completely instantly changed our lives.

56:52Margot Henderson:How amazing.

56:53Fergus Henderson:Yeah. I hope the wires aren't going rusty.

56:56Margot Henderson:That's what I always say to the doctors,

56:59Fergus Henderson:to the absolute angels in Queen Square.

57:03Margot Henderson:Oh, wow.

57:04Fergus Henderson:Yeah.

57:04Margot Henderson:So how does it affect your everyday life? Because it must be, it's a big deal.

57:10Fergus Henderson:Yeah, I'm a bit of a carer.

57:11Margot Henderson:You're a bit of a carer.

57:12Fergus Henderson:Yeah. So it's like, what's happening with Fergus? Is he okay? You know. Yeah. All that sort of thing. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't cook for me anymore. That's really annoying.

57:23Margot Henderson:That is a shame. That is annoying. Yeah, that is a shame.

57:26Fergus Henderson:I could really do with a Fergus meal. Yeah. He's a great cook.

57:30Margot Henderson:Yeah.

57:30Fergus Henderson:He was such a good cook. But, no, we're having a very good life and, you know, we're in our 60s, so it's fine to slow down a bit. We're off to Scotland on holiday soon and, yeah, we've been to, we went to Thailand for Christmas. So, you know, we're doing stuff. It's good.

57:53Margot Henderson:How do you make sure that you're okay through all of that, though?

57:58Fergus Henderson:Friends, family, yeah. My friends, sometimes we've thought about moving to the country, but I couldn't because I'd have to move away from our friends. It's hard enough moving to South London.

58:12Fergus Henderson:Are your friends going to come and see you in South London? But they do come. All those North Londoners, the great divide.

58:24Margot Henderson:Wouldn't it be fair to say that loyalty is important to you?

58:28Fergus Henderson:Yes, loyalty is such an incredible emotion, feeling, isn't it? People are loyal, staff are loyal. Loyalty is a great... Are we loyal to the Labour Party?

58:45Margot Henderson:Loyalty is from a political standpoint. There may be a different thing. I'm just worried about that. I've been thinking about loyalty.

58:54Fergus Henderson:I'm still loyal to the Labour Party. Yeah, loyalty, friendship and caring for each other and watching out as we, you know, I think it's going to become more important as you get older and nurturing, watching out, all that sort of thing.

59:15Margot Henderson:Yeah, through thick and thin.

59:16Fergus Henderson:Yeah. Yeah.

59:18Margot Henderson:The two of you are married, aren't you? Yeah.

59:21Fergus Henderson:Got married after knowing each other seven months.

59:24Margot Henderson:Did you?

59:24Fergus Henderson:Yeah. What was your wedding day like? It was brilliant. Oh, my God. We got married in the Severnett Forest. 300 people. I knew 50. And we was in this beautiful church in the middle of the Severnett Forest. I was in gold Ishimayaki.

59:43Margot Henderson:What? And my head red hair and Victorian Paisley Shawl and Ferguson's and Tales. We had a choir who sang from the Jungle Book, We Are Friends,

59:59Fergus Henderson:and Jerusalem, of course. And then we had cassoulet, and Fergus and I cooked cassoulet, and all the ushers put a big pot of cassoulet down on each table.

1:00:10Margot Henderson:That's just fantastic.

1:00:11Fergus Henderson:It was great. It was a great day, and I had to leave.

1:00:14Margot Henderson:What do you mean?

1:00:15Fergus Henderson:Everyone said, you have to go because that old tradition thing. Oh, it's rubbish. That's so rubbish. Everyone's telling you you're beautiful and, you know, your best friends. And we went off to Paris.

1:00:26Margot Henderson:You're beautiful, goodbye.

1:00:27Fergus Henderson:Yeah, and I fell asleep into my steak tartar. Boof. Yeah, and then we ate a lot in Paris. Fergus tripe one day, this another day. Grown for four another day. I was like, Fergus, I'm exhausted. Yeah, it was great.

1:00:46Margot Henderson:It was good. I can picture it. I mean, I think it's worth saying the two of you are, I mean, from a style perspective, just so brilliant, so chic. I mean, you know. It's very nice of you to tell you. No, it's true, though. The two of you together, it just, it's an amazing thing. I suppose that's why I'm interested in the loyalty aspects. And, you know, it really feels to me like you are a, you're a unit. It's a kind of unbreakable thing, it seems to me. I can't leave him now, can I? Oh, no, of course. It's my favourite Jaloo.

1:01:17Fergus Henderson:But no, yeah, we're a team and he feels that. And we've always been a good, I mean, God, we've all had our ups and downs, haven't we? God. And that's a great thing about marriage, I think, or puncture, whatever. The longer you stay that unifying, that coming together, it strengthens the roots. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's amazing. I'm really a big believer of marriage.

1:01:42Margot Henderson:Yeah.

1:01:43Fergus Henderson:And I quite like the signing too. I think that's helpful.

1:01:47Margot Henderson:Yeah.

1:01:47Fergus Henderson:I think the more locked in, the better because it helps, you know, relationships are so tricky anyway, aren't they? Something happens, this happens. But, you know, because you signed on the paper with all your friends in front of you, you've sort of really got to stick in there and the longer you stick in, the better. I mean, we've had such fun too. I mean, Fergus is fun. He's up for fun and art and seeing things and making the most of every situation. so that's been a really great part of our lives.

1:02:17Margot Henderson:How have you got through those down points then, what do you think?

1:02:21Fergus Henderson:Drinking.

1:02:24Margot Henderson:It's not a joke that either, is it?

1:02:26Fergus Henderson:A few drinks always helps, doesn't it? Friends, crying, screaming. I don't know. I'm being quite emotional but, you know, being with people always helps. Cooking, cooking. It's cooked dinner. And, you know, restaurants, Fergus, if it's only a bad time, Fergus says, I think we need a treat. Let's go. We deserve, no, we deserve a really expensive meal in a restaurant. He would always be saying, I think we really deserve this. And we'd go out for some glamorous meal and everything would be better and we'd have no money. You know, it's not very practical. but yeah we've we've solved our problems a lot through eating out that's great yeah and we love restaurants that moment you walk in I love it when you arrive in a restaurant and it's quiet and it's early in the day and then it all builds up and the noise and everything and then you're still there yeah it subsides yeah um yeah it's a great love we have for that sort of pleasure of

1:03:34Margot Henderson:people coming together yeah fantastic last question the word home how would you define it

1:03:44Fergus Henderson:home is it new zealand is it britain is it your house um it's where you feel at home i mean i feel very at home in britain i feel very at home in south london here yeah but i still feel at home in new zealand i don't know home is where your heart is isn't it it's where your family are

1:04:04Margot Henderson:and your friends yeah yeah thanks so much margot i really appreciate it's been fantastic thanks a lot a big thank you to the wonderful margot and thanks to all of you for listening as well if you're new to the podcast and want to go deeper you'll find our house tours with various guests on patreon you can watch the video version of each interview on youtube and you can also keep up to date with what we're doing on Instagram. Search on all those platforms for homing with Matt. You can also help us out hugely by leaving a quick rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And huge thanks to everyone who's done that already.

1:04:47Margot Henderson:This episode was produced by Podshop with music by Simeon Walker. Thanks folks and talk to you next time. Bye for now.