Phin Harper: How a Breakup Helped Me Find Home

36:01Phin Harper:Yeah so interesting. We talk a lot on the podcast about this idea of belonging and how do we find that sense of rootedness and from so many conversations I've had now it really does come down to that social connection aspect um just what what have you learned about the idea of home and belonging from living here and interacting with your neighbors would you say it's a very challenging question isn't it because um I moved here with an ex and for a long time for several years the project of living here was about like us as a family and that or at least it was in my head that like every every decision we were making was kind of about our relationship and about each other including how we got involved with the community and the residence association and and interior design choices and since she's left i've had to to find a completely new definition of what it means to belong in this flat.

37:05Phin Harper:Because it used to be that the reason I like the flat is kind of because my partner lives there and I love my partner. And now it has to be about something else. It has to be about I love my flat because I love the interior or I love all the plants or I love my neighbours. And so it has been a bit of a gear shift. I'd say all those things were already there even when I was in that relationship. but I've had to make, to kind of redesign the flat to be more of an expression of me and my own values, interests, passions, hobbies, and less be about a relationship that no longer exists. And that, one of the weird upsides of a breakup like that is it does make you closer to some of your friends, right?

37:51Phin Harper:Your platonic friends, because you need to rely on them more. like it's just really simple things like previously if you're with a partner and you're like cooking and you don't have an ingredient they might say oh don't worry i'll pop to the shop you keep cooking i'll go grab some milk or eggs or whatever whereas now i'm on my own i have to rely much more on my neighbors for that sort of thing and i find myself texting the whatsapp group like can i borrow some flour um but that is that is sort of positive and that's a real a real kind of privilege to live amongst a community of people where you can have that kind of connection and you can rely on each other and they can rely on you for stuff in return you can feed each other's cats and um kind of go all go to the pub together but it does it has it's definitely changed my sense of like what it means to belong in a place that's so interesting i find that fascinating so you're describing something that was quite inward and it was about a unit and now you've had to actually deliberately slightly look outward in order to in order to feel that same sense of belonging because that that individual is not with you anymore yeah i mean we were always quite a an outgoing couple and we'd like invite people around and um i credit that relationship with instigating the gardening club and instigating like some of the connections that are like continuing to flourish on the estate but in the past if you were at a loose end you could just always just hang out with your partner and watch telly or something whereas now I have to be more like I have to go out into the world more or I have to bring people to me so I host far more dinners than I used to and I'll like bring together a random assortment of friends and have a dinner in this in this sort of living room dining room but I'm doing more emotional labor on behalf of the the wider my wider community than I used to in a way this is slightly challenging question in a way but do you think this flat contributed to the breakdown in the relationship somehow like how how did i mean i suppose you've described the way that the emotional temperature of your childhood home changed when your parents weren't getting on and got divorced i wonder how did it you know how did how did the structure of this place sort of play into that relationship do you think yeah i actually think the opposite weirdly yeah like Like, I don't think my ex would mind me saying that the reason she left is because she's attracted to women.

40:18Phin Harper:And I'm not a woman. Okay. So, you know, there's a very sort of sensible, practical reason for the breakup, actually. You know, no one did anything wrong. We still really liked each other at the time. But, you know, I'm not a woman. And she is attracted to women. And in a way, my regret about that relationship is like, why did we stay together for nearly five years? It's like, what were we, you know, surely we could have seen this coming earlier, but I think the house, the flats and the community was so nice. It was so nice living together. We were such like brilliant flatmates to each other that we sort of forgot to notice that, you know, we weren't having any sex.

41:03Phin Harper:There was a fundamental misunderstanding about what the relationship was or like miscommunication or like delusion or something. So perhaps the richness of our domestic life and including our neighbours within that, when I say that, actually enabled us to stay together much longer than we like would have done if we were in crappy rented accommodation in some block where no one knows each other and you know perhaps we'd have clocked it earlier if that was the case yeah yeah i understand um i was reading some of your writing and you've talked about something called unlocking so on the subject of neighbors you sometimes come together to celebrate unlocking so tell us about what that means and what you do Yeah.

41:53Phin Harper:Unlocking is an idea from the American science fiction writer Kurt Vonnegut. He writes this piece. First, it appears in Crack's Cradle, which is one of his books. And then he talks about it again in a speech where he argues that really, for our climate, our microclimate, we should have six seasons, not four. and we should match the language of those six seasons more closely to our actual experience of the weather across the those those those months and if we did this maybe we'd be a bit less depressed because he thinks we we have sort of false expectations we call spring we call march and april spring march and april often horrible they're like cold and wet and gray um and they're not that springy actually and they're even less springy if you're like a slightly further north in the hemisphere and similarly like we call um september october and november autumn while you know november's actually like really quite grim um so he suggests let's have six seasons and you have locking which is november and december which is like it's really cold it's dark but like it's not quite as like crunchy and warm as uh autumn was but it's not yet deep winter either and then deep winter is just january and february really cold really icy really dark and then you have march and april become unlocking which is like it's not quite spring don't get too excited but like you can see the daffodils coming up it's not quite as grim as it was during february and so i have started uh i think for like five six years every march i will have an unlocking party where it might be big might be small but we will mark the arrival of unlocking by planting something because it's a good time here to plant a lot of things and um eating rhubarb which is a sort of seasonal kind of late february early march uh fruit so i'll make like big batch of rhubarb ice cream we'll have this little ceremony we plant a tree or plant something uh and often they like quite big parties and um we've done a few on the estate where we've had like 200 people around and we like all plant a tree together and read out this little bit of Vonnegut and I guess I feel like we're losing cultural rituals in modern British life like people aren't getting married as much and that's fine like I respect that but also like those weddings did play a key role in like giving a kind of joyful ritual structure to our years and we don't go to church or to mosque as much as like people used to and and so you lose all the sort of ceremony and ritual that comes with that um and so finding new secular traditions that can have a ritual attached to them or at least give you an excuse to like get some friends around and have a big dinner uh i think is really important i really like that burns night for example it's not an english festival it's a scottish festival but i'll always note it and celebrate it because it um feels like a good relatively new invention that has a kind of cultural value that i appreciate you just want to wear a kilt i do like wearing kilts but um i also like eating haggis and dancing cayleys and like you know burns night was only invented after burns died it was like his friends suggested to that they do it to like commemorate him and it's become this like national thing in Scotland but even like down here people will celebrate Bernstein.

45:30Phin Harper:I think that's great. I think more people should be inventing traditions like that. I totally agree. I love rituals. That is such a great idea. I really like it. When I spoke to Catherine May she talked about you know if you're an introvert or you're neurodivergent in some way you perhaps don't love being in big groups of people you know maybe new year's eve isn't kind of your thing yeah so she celebrates the solstice and she does it in quite a low-key way because it's somehow more in rhythm with the with nature rather than with anything else i love that idea of you know your rhubarb thing celebrating rhubarb during the unlocking it's really lovely um you also have you were showing me early there's there's areas where you've got together with the locals and you've planted stuff you've taken up the paving stones that exist between the various blocks here yeah and you've turned them into flower beds yeah tell us about that process how did that come about uh well it starts off with a fight because um i live in greenwich and greenwich council are the freeholder of the estate and one day they decided they wanted us to get rid of all the small front gardens from these raised flats there's three blocks of these raised flats and they just came along and they sent a bunch of men who literally started trying to take people's benches and plant pots away from these little kind of nooks that we all have outside of our um homes and this was very scary like you know i love my flat but so much of what i love about it is to do with this little threshold into the public realm and that being a space where i can have some plants dry my laundry talk to my neighbors I feel like if that was to go it would massively kind of dissolve the qualities of what I like about living on this row and so we fought them really hard also they had no basis at all for this you know there was nothing in the building regulations no fire engineer or and no one could like find a good reason to justify why they were taking away these plant pots they just they just they just decided one day that it was a fire risk without any evidence or professional expertise and we're like pursuing that course of action and so we fought them in the media we got multiple Grenfell Tower fire expert witnesses to come and look at the situation we got the fire brigade to look at the situation started a petition that got like 40 ,000 signatures um and you know I end up on BBC telly and and various radio shows talking about this and we kind of went like the the council eventually they never formally apologize but they they stopped pursuing the the men stopped coming around the men stopped coming to take the plant pots and they haven't come back um and then they started repaving the estate and i think that was to get us to calm down they'd been really spooked by this community who'd suddenly like fought back with more vigor than they'd encountered before and they were thinking of something that they could just like do to make the neighbors happy and get us to kind of appreciate them more after this big fight.

48:40Phin Harper:So we started repaving the estate or like relaying the existing paving stones. And so we just said to them, hey, you know, given that you're taking up all the paving stones and laying them again, please can you put in a bunch more flower beds? We've already done the community consultation with all the neighbours to know where these new flower beds should be. Here's a set of architectural drawings. Please do this. And they did sort of miraculously. they um so they did the work of uh not planting the flower beds but taking up the paving stones for us uh and then we planted all of those flower beds or the gardening club planted all those those flower beds so somehow this like effort local authority effort to make the estate less green actually has turned into the exact opposite where there's way more flowers and there's way more planting going on now than there was when i started it's just fantastic and you were showing I mean, there's these huge posts where people would hang, supposedly hang their laundry out, but sort of don't get used like that.

49:39So you decided to plant vines up them instead.

49:42Phin Harper:Yeah, there's two laundry areas, one of which, neither of which are used very much for laundry. A lot of people drive their laundry at home these days. One of them gets used a lot by children playing. They drive their scooters around or play football. But the other one was just sort of sitting there. people would sometimes wash their cars but it's like a bit of dead space uh and it had this these big wooden posts with big metal rings attached to them so it looks quite striking and so i thought what if we grew a vineyard on these posts so we've like grown these little vines they're not so little anymore they're you know as tall as the posts are um and we've only done eight of the 16 posts so far i'm sort of hoping we'll get more neighbors on board in the future and we can have a few more.

50:28Phin Harper:But eventually that is going to be a green tunnel. We had maybe sort of 100 grapes last year. This year we might have several hundred. We can even make wine perhaps. Yeah. We've specified Vitus Regent, which is a type of grape that you can make wine from or you can just eat off the vine. Okay. So our options, we have various options. Yeah. But I really like it. as an example of a community taking a bit of underused infrastructure and improving it, you know, and hopefully, you know, vines are quite slow growing, but in a few years' time, that would be like a really magical sort of tunnel where you could have like a big dinner or you could imagine kind of children playing and running through the tunnel or something like that.

51:17It's fantastic. And it brings me back to that word belonging again because I think we all have a sort of collective responsibility to generate that kind of feeling, right? I think that's what you've successfully done here. So I really admire it. I'd love to just quickly pivot to this idea of repair, because I know this is another thing that you're interested in. I mean, I'm looking at this lamp across from us here that looks like it's been repaired in some way, but just tell me about repair in this flat, first of all.

51:44Phin Harper:Yeah, so it's part of my, like, I guess, theoretical architectural advocacy is I've been writing and thinking much more about repair over the years. We're very bad at repairing things in Britain. We tend to just throw stuff away quite easily. But we've got better. We've got better. We know we're less of a disposable culture than we used to be. And we now have examples of like high street shops like Toast or Patagonia offering repair services for their garments. And the EU is going to make it. So technology companies have to offer repair services for phones and washing machines and stuff. So like there's some improvements.

52:28Phin Harper:Like we know that repair is better for the planet and we are gradually moving in that direction. But when it comes to architecture and buildings and housing in particular, we're terrible at repair. So there's so many examples of housing estates that have just been left to kind of rot and then eventually get knocked down and gentrified or, you know, some sort of crap thing comes and replaces them. my own sister's estate in Elephants and Castle. The council has been knocking that down for decades, really. Her block is still there, but many of her neighbour's blocks have gone. And so we really need to figure out a way to better appreciate, celebrate and to do repair.

53:15Phin Harper:And so in my practice, my sort of art practice, my writing practice, I've been trying to explore expressive repair. So, you know, one of the things that makes repair hard is this idea that it has to look exactly like it looked before it got broken. And I'm a bit skeptical of that idea. Like maybe something breaking is an opportunity to make it look a bit different. maybe improve how it looks which is a you know something that it's very common in like japan where people will use kintsugi to repair a broken pot with a precious metal and then sort of the repair is expressed and actually makes it looks really cool and i think there's we could apply that same thinking to buildings to towns to housing uh and so the lamp over there is a paper lamp it's an iguchi lamp but it was like pretty torn apart by a cat the whole top had come off and uh so i repaired it with colorful mulberry paper to try and make a virtue out of the break like rather than just throwing away and buying a new one i was like okay how can we turn this into it's not going to look the same but it's still going to look cool and it's still going to express something about me and my attitude um and then i've just been trying to do that to lots of different things it's like the table that was here earlier was repaired in a sort of expressive way um i've got various tools that have been expressed and repaired in an expressive way but it's like i'm trying to move away from thinking as something getting broken as a a disaster like this sort of micro crisis that you're talking about earlier to thinking of it as an opportunity that's an opportunity to do something cool to do something expressive to do to make it better in some way.

55:01That's very cool. And on a, on a, on a wider level, you've talked about how the idea of repair can be almost celebrated by the architecture itself. So you gave the example of the great mosque in Jene in Mali.

55:16Phin Harper:Yeah. Yeah. So tell it, tell us about that building. Cause it, I mean, I'm sure some people would be familiar with it. Yeah. So in other building traditions not necessarily in the the west but in other parts of the world repair already is quite a rich part of construction culture that has uh expressive and ritual value as well as being practically useful to just extend the lifespan of your building and in Mali there's a particular style of um earth construction where you have sort of big sandy earth clay walls that are quite thick and then they are kind of punctured with uh chunky bundles of rods that are thick enough that you can stand on them and so if you look at these buildings they look kind of like prickly like a kind of porcupine or something and they have this very strong aesthetic it's often used on like um mosques or like grand buildings uh palaces perhaps um but those rods that you can stand on though all over the walls are actually sort of built-in scaffolding so it becomes quite easy for the community or local workers to climb all over these buildings and repair the mud render every year which you need to every now and then if you're you know you've got heavy rains sometimes in the year and then it's very dry other times in the year um and so it's a way of like not seeing repair as like bad or uh regrettable but like part of the life of the building and part of the life of the community is like you build the infrastructure to do the repair into the architecture and you make it um part of its aesthetic and then when you need to do the repair it's all there and it's really easy to climb all over this thing and and and fix it there's a lot of architects and property developers could learn from that that kind of culture definitely so while we're on materials finna if i'm gonna put you on the spot here but let's imagine that you were building your own house today okay what what materials would you use well i probably wouldn't build a house from scratch you know it's the i thought you were asked it i would try and work with some sort of existing derelict building which there are a lot of right we have especially in like i don't know coastal towns that have been sort of neglected over the years that we have so many vacant uh buildings like old chapels in wales at a four year part that could have a second life or could really need some kind of love and care i'm a trustee of the 20th century society and every single year we find ourselves fighting against the demolition of of not even that old buildings um and frequently they've just not been looked after for long enough that it's seems easier to knock them down start again than to just like work with them or repair them um so my first thought on what the materials of my dream house would be like there'd be something already there and actually even this estate they used reclaimed bricks from the villas that were here before that had been bombed damaged so this is not a new idea to like work with what you find um and but then if i was bringing in new materials i think i'd be thinking about plant-based materials so you know timber straw hemp uh and maybe earth earth is just like incredibly abundant incredibly low uh carbon um and quite good like it's quite good insulator sort of sticks to itself so why aren't we all building with earth it's a it's a very interesting question because we used to like you know back in the day most buildings would have been made out of plants like or or from earth and it's only relatively recently that we've started building with like highly processed high carbon materials like steel and concrete and even brick like fired brick is a relatively modern technology um i think it's partly to do with having a growth based economy that sees processing as valuable like we like to process we have highly processed foods um people might have read ultra processed people which is this book about the rise of ultra processed foods like you know ready meals and things like that um and it's not necessarily because it's cheaper although sometimes that's the driver uh it's almost like we've become reliant on someone else doing the processing somewhere far farther up the supply chain and so we as consumers of food uh are not doing that ourselves we're just like shoving something in the microwave or shoving something in the oven rather than cooking with raw ingredients that take a bit more time in the kitchen to work with.

1:00:37Phin Harper:But increasingly, we seem to be becoming aware that this is really bad for us. This is like driving all sorts of disease and ill health. There's this reliance on ultra processed food as a large part of our diet. And they don't satisfy us. They don't make us feel full. They don't make us feel good. They have addictive qualities at times. And I think there is a parallel you can draw to construction materials. We rely on highly processed construction materials, often prefabricated window components that like come as this complex buildup of silicons and membranes and polymers with like inert gases in and then we just plug them into a building or clip them into a building.

1:01:18Phin Harper:we're not really working with like raw materials in the same way so much and i think it's a problem it's a problem for climate because these highly processed materials are much higher impact in terms of the the carbon they produce like cement alone is seven percent of global greenhouse emissions steel used in buildings is eight percent of global carbon emissions like these are these are big they're making a big contribution to um uh to climate breakdown and if we could ease our way out of those and explore more plant-based construction practices instead that would that would buy us a lot of time on the fighting uh fighting climate change but yeah i think it's but yeah it's a mix of economics and and reliance on ultra processing i think it's driving it but the good news is there's loads of alternatives available still we still have the craftsmanship just about to build with straw or thatcher roof so for if people are interested in building their own home or home extension or something that there are people out there who are doing amazing work and are worth tracking down so i'd love to sort of finish by bringing it back to this this flat We've talked about rituals in a community sense and your rituals of unlocking and so on.

1:02:44But do you have any kind of personal rituals or routines that you go through in this place at all that kind of give structure to your day?

1:02:54Phin Harper:What an interesting question. I used to make my ex coffee every morning. I'd get up first and I'd make her, she'd have coffee with oat milk and I'd have, have it black. And that was like, when she left, not having that ritual was like weirdly destabilizing. Like it's such a small thing, but just like, who am I meant to make coffee for now? Me? That doesn't seem very sensible. And so I feel like I lost a lot of rituals in the breakup, but also a breakup isn't like an opportunity to make. new rituals perhaps um got a new well secondhand but like got a new lp player uh got like different light fittings re-hung all the art um started like using the space to hang more of my kinetic sculpture like all these mobiles like i was still making mobiles before but like they just weren't as present in in the space um so i guess the ritual the ongoing ritual is like tinkering with the flat to make it more and more me commissioned a new kitchen recently by the architect Farrakh and that's also a a way to like reconfigure my home to be more centered on what I'm what I'm like rather than what I was like in that couple and then I think gardening is a great ritual I I totally neglected those pot plants for a while because I was so sort of grief stricken.

1:04:32Phin Harper:But now I've like got back into the zone. I've started planting wildflowers out there. I try and water them every day, like in the evening. That brings me a lot of joy. So like finding a new rhythm. Yeah. With a new set of rituals. And then I host dinners. I don't succeed in this, but I try to have one big dinner a month where most people at the dinner don't know each other already. And so you're always meeting new people. And then I'll cook a big meal, I'll make some ice cream and I'll make a cocktail. And I guess that is a way of, it is a kind of ritual that uses my space that I'm very lucky to have in a way that I think brings joy and connections to other people.

1:05:18That's fantastic. And you mentioned your mobiles, so they're hanging all around us, but what's the genesis of this?

1:05:24Phin Harper:why did you start making mobiles it was originally in a project a project to sort of commemorate a dead cat like a pet cat who died um and i hung i hung a little broken dead tree well it was a living tree that got broken that i'd planted to commemorate the cat i hung it in the flat um and eventually all the leaves fell off it and you know it died but it was really nice having that kind of bit of tree that little leafy bit of tree hanging in the space uh and so when i took the tree down i thought i wonder if i can recreate that somehow through an art project i originally thought i'll buy a mobile and then i thought maybe i'll make a mobile and then i've just sort of got carried away so i've now made i think over 300 i've done some huge commissions for you know there's one hanging in the LSE I had one in the Royal Academy um lots of like smaller private commissions as well and it's it's ballooned into um uh you know full-on art practice uh which is you know I feel enormously lucky to be able to make art as part of how I make a living it's really lovely and I love the tools of your trade that are in the flat here you know there's lots and lots of implements and yeah I should I should have a studio or at least use my spare room but I just find I make them here like I make them in this space in this living room and that like bashes the floor up a little bit but there's something very joyful about making art in your own home and then hanging it in your own home and that being part of the practice you know even when I make a piece for someone else it will have hung in my space for a while before it goes to them hopefully that that adds a adds some layer to what I'm doing given everything we talked about today this this this word home which is so multifaceted how would you define it would you think that word I think I'm still trying to define it to be honest I I had a very stimulating and interesting childhood but home was never like a space of comfort or retreat partly because it was also where I was being taught it was like it was my school as well as my home and my parents were quite stressful to live with at times.

1:07:37Phin Harper:So I don't have the like super warm, cozy associations with home that some people do. But when I lived with that ex, I think probably for the first time in my life, it felt like I was living in a home that was always calm and nourishing to be in. And even though that relationship was like not the right one and ended, I feel very warmly about that period of coming home from being a chief executive at a stressful charity during the pandemic and like being at ease in my home for like the first time in my life really uh now as a single person I'm like trying to figure out what how I find that again through in a different way um but yeah i don't i don't really think home is a a fixed thing i think it's something that we create uh and i'm still in the process of creating it but um it's a very stimulating journey yeah such an interesting answer and it put me in mind of um rosa park the editor of Serial Magazine she was the very first guest on the podcast all those years ago wow but she said to me I find home in other people so she was saying no building ever feels like home to me no country no particular geographical location but you know when I find my person that's what home feels like and I'm just wondering you know obviously with the breakup of your relationship you're kind of saying that you you found a lot of home in her it sounds like yeah and with with that now moving into a new chapter it's such an interesting challenge for you isn't it to try and find home either within yourself or within the community that you're in here as you've described today but finding it in quite a different way I think is such an interesting challenge for you definitely it's like when you when you lose a partner you have lots of different types of grief there's like the grief for the like the unborn child that you might have had together there's the grief for like you know the the parties that you could have held together or something like the growing old together um but for me a big part of it was just losing that like really nice flatmate that I had and the the domestic life that we'd created together it's also why like being good friends with your neighbors is so good because they're like really present and if you can build good connections with them that like is a positive that will just like keep giving and giving because you just meet them also means if they let you down for some reason and i had a bit of a fallout with a neighbor recently hopefully we'll get through it But like it really hurts much more than if another friend who's more distant geographically had, you know, done something annoying because they because they're part of your home, because they are part of your your like immediate world.

1:10:45Phin Harper:And you feel like quite an intense grief about that, I think, when a neighbor like pisses you off. Well, that's so true. And it can actually even cause you to change your patterns, can't it? You know, you might come and go at a different time of day so you don't bump into them or you might take a different route or. Exactly. And then that can spiral and that can become like a really sour, long lasting animosity. And I, you know, I'm pretty confident that me and my neighbor will like get through it. Come on neighbor. We'll make friends again. But yeah, you can see how things that would not deteriorate into long term conflict with other friends or colleagues can do in the context of a community because you're just like continuously confronted with each other.

1:11:35Phin Harper:And you can respond to that in many ways. But one response is to like sort of tense up. um but like the flip side of that it's still worth being friends with them because the flip side of that is uh if you're on good terms with your neighbors like every day is reassurance every day is community every day is like kindness and affection and and and when you know when i was like very feeling very very low and like the flat was a complete mess stuff everywhere some of my neighbors who had a key came in and just tidied it up a bit while I was out and I came home and I was like oh that's weird like I can walk to the kitchen without like clambering over stuff and it's because they just spontaneously like helped me out a little bit um and that's very special that's not something that I think most people get to experience from their neighborhoods but that that's yeah that's i will remember that gesture only probably only took a lot half an hour but like i remember that gesture for the rest of my life i think that's amazing what a nice place to finish on um yeah god i've really enjoyed it finn thank you so much and i um i mean i haven't said but the films that you make for the modern house are fantastic and people should watch those on the modern house instagram account yeah but you basically go into interesting buildings and you give your personal take on them and they're really fascinating I think but I've just really enjoyed hearing more about your story I mean I think your you know where you've come from you know describing growing up on a on a a really kind of bog standard estate is sort of fascinating I always love that and then and then kind of where you've got to and this feeling of like you know you didn't quite feel like you fitted in somehow but you've really turned that around and made it into a virtue so i really admire it so yeah thank you very much thanks man appreciate it

1:13:34thank you so much to finn for welcoming us into their home i really really enjoyed that as i mentioned before finn makes really great films about architecture for the modern house so do have a look at those on the modern house's youtube channel the video version of this podcast is available to watch on the Homing YouTube channel, alongside, of course, our back catalogue of podcasts from the last year or so. If you'd like to support Homing, our Patreon subscribers get access to behind-the-scenes house tours, including, of course, a tour of Finn's home. So to join up there, head to patreon.com slash homingwithmat.

1:14:16This episode was produced by Podshop, with music by Simeon Walker. thanks again for being here really appreciate it and talk to you all on the next one bye for now