Harvard Sociologist: The Technology Crisis No One Is Talking About! How Notification Culture, and Parasocial Bonds Are Creating A Loneliness Epidemic (Caitlin Begg)

21:31And I actually just saw this girl do it with Peyton Sarton, who I love. They took an adorable picture of her with her dog while she was ordering at a coffee shop with her dogs, like paws on the counter and said to her after, do you mind if I send do this photo it's really cute oh and i think for anybody that's like moving to a new city or trying to establish these boundaries of in real life communication think about like how you can offer value to totally and you're gonna start a conversation and make a friend totally did you see my video on sincerely yours tell me about it so there is this father daughter duo okay of a creator family i guess wait yes i watched this yesterday yes yes yes so for people that are listening that haven't seen this video.

22:14It's bizarre. Yes. I actually thought about this for so long. So there is a family, father-daughter duo, that had an exclusive launch with Sephora days ago for their new skincare brand Sincerely Yours. It literally looks like it could be Drunk Elephant just like for teenagers. This girl who's 15, she pulled such a massive crowd to a mall that it was actually dangerous for crowd control. Insane. And the content that this brand is built off of is so creepy to me. It is literally videos on the father's YouTube channel about, is my daughter dating him? The boyfriend is proposing to this 15-year-old to be his girlfriend.

22:52It's just bizarre. What is going on with youth and social media and these types of people that just pop off out of nowhere with millions of followers? I think it's just not okay. But is that what people are interested in? I think what it does is it exploits people's fascination for people's everyday lives. And it also lets iPad parents be iPad parents. They want to just give their kids an iPad and let them watch whatever it is on social media and just go. But we crave these intimate details of everyday life, right? And the one part of that that's not on social media is younger kids. And that's why family vloggers do so well is because they're showing these everyday moments of kids.

23:35But it's not okay. These kids are not 18. And it's just not okay. What do you think the biggest fear is of Gen Alpha and Gen Z with this level of communication and social media and technology? I think the fear is, is that they won't value in-person communication or in-person experiences as much. And I think that in an ideal world, our country would do a better job in having laws to protect these children, just the same way that child actors have different laws. And some states are doing that well. But what I really worry about is getting so stuck in our screens that we're not really realizing that there is a whole world around us and trying to balance that and getting addicted to these heavy consumption habits at such a young age and making consumption part of your personality is also something that's pretty dangerous because then it's like, it just is the next thing.

24:21And you're not really developing hobbies. You're just consuming. You're consuming content. You're consuming products. And what else is there? And it's like, are you then getting hobbies to just film content? Are you getting hobbies to like have a hobby that is not going to give you a dopamine hit? What everybody wants in life is love, which I think is just like a very common thread. Why do you think that it is so sexy for women to date a man that doesn't use social media? Oh my gosh. My husband doesn't post on social media. Yeah. Same with my boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah. I think because there's just a huge ick in guys doing this.

24:55I couldn't be with someone who was constantly posting everything. It's not a fully gendered thing, but I notice it at least with my friends that the girls want to post more than the guys do. And I think that sometimes I see at least in personal anecdotal experience that my girlfriends get a little bit more stressed out about social media than the guys. And I think that if a guy in your life is also part of that stress, it just wouldn't be fun. And I also think it's nice to have someone in your life who's not encouraging you to make everything into content and who looks at things from a different perspective and just having two different perspectives and realizing that there is a life outside of social media because it would kind of upset me if I was on my honeymoon and my husband was like, let's take pics from 90 different angles.

25:34I'm like, that's my role to be stressed out about that. Like, you don't need to take that role. It's so funny because Serena Kerrigan was just saying she posted this very vulnerable video about her and her relationship. And some of the things that they fought over is like her boyfriend saying to her, like, I can't go on a trip just for content. And I think every single creator's partner, spouse at a certain point feels that as well. Like we were just in Paris and my boyfriend was like, Maggie, like, I am happy to take photos for you for 10 minutes before we're ready to leave. But like my night is not to be built around content.

26:04Yeah. And I'm like, but I remember I'll never forget this. There was this really big finance man, male creator that people were like, you guys would be so good together. And I met him in person. And my only thought when I left was like, I can't imagine dating somebody where I was like, babe, can you take a picture of me? And he's like, no, take a picture of me. No, I can't. I just can't. I can't do it. But I do think that a lot of women have actually found love using technology, including yourself. Do you think that it's made it easier to find love or harder to trust what is real? Both. But I think what's interesting is I met my husband on Bumble in 2020, and it was easier to find people then.

26:41I think part of it is, yes, they're good. But part of what I studied in my undergrad thesis was dating apps. So it's a little funny that I ended up meeting my husband on a dating app because one of the things that I realized is that the more that you can get off the app and in person, the better. But also you have to be pretty vulnerable in your questions and in your prompts and not just make it into these pen pals because that's like one of the worst parts of dating apps is just getting into that pen pal thing. And I think what's happened now is that now that they're post COVID, there's this inflection point of everyone being on the app and getting this app fatigues.

27:11And now people are going back to wanting to meet in person, which is great. But I really think that dating is a numbers game and people don't want to hear that, right? Like I was out for a while, like I was single for a while. And I actually, this is crazy, but I made a spreadsheet of all the people that I had dated and like everything, where they went to school, what like what sport they played, all this stuff and what went wrong. It's about looking at your own patterns. We a lot of times just like to say, oh, dating's not going well, this isn't going well, or the apps suck. But it's just like, don't take a victim mindset, look at your own patterns.

27:40And it's like, try something different. And also just put yourself out there and make plans with people. So do you think that the dating apps are numbing us to that real human connection or we're entering into an era where like people are now wanting to meet their person that way? I think they are numbing us to human connection a little bit because I think that they have made it so that there's always another option out there. But I think that there are some people who aren't like that. Like my husband and I both were looking for love passively, albeit, it. I didn't expect to meet him at 25, 26.

28:12But I think it's one of those things where having in-person experiences and chance encounters is something I look at a lot in my research, is chance encounters and seeing how many experiences in your everyday life do you have that could lead to a new connection. And a lot of times for people is really low. And so I say to people, okay, go in new environments, try new things. I'm doing workplace design projects with companies. I'm saying, okay, put your employees in different situations so they can act differently because there's this thing called psychogeography and we act similarly in certain places.

28:43When we go back to your college or your high school, you have this feeling and you act certain ways. We'll create new pathways. Go to new places. Go to do new things. It's putting yourself in new situations. I think that's where we can find success and less of this app-based connection.

29:01When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp. The secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. Do you think that the loneliness epidemic is related to social media and being chronically online? Yes, I do. And Jonathan Haidt in The Anxious Generation spoke about that a lot in that he wants to get us away from a phone-based childhood and back to a play-based childhood.

29:43And I think the loneliness epidemic is something where it relates to this parasocial relationship that we have with our friends, too, is that we see all this content from our friends' lives, but we don't see the in-betweens. We don't see the everyday moments. And that is what is most dangerous, I think. And that's what I tried to do when I was posting a lot of film on my Instagram is sometimes I would just post, like, the in-between moments. And I think that that really made me realize that we just don't share these moments and we don't talk about them enough and we don't talk about our struggles and just trying to make plans with people and put yourself into more situations where you can make those connections.

30:16It's really important because loneliness is a part of social media because we're hyper connected. It's this hyper communication, but we paradoxically feel more lonely than ever. But I think that's what is so interesting about social media. And I can say this from creating content for so many years is like you start to do things that the algorithm wants you to do or rewards you for. And so there isn't that same reward for something that feels mundane or feels like the in-between moment. So I guess like if someone is looking to prioritize that, like how can they self-reward themselves to continue that behavior if like the algorithm won't?

30:50Because you have to learn how to be bored again. That's the biggest thing is that people don't realize that daydreaming and boredom is a powerful thing. So the situation is the group I spoke about earlier that I found out about through Maddie Healy and I've been researching for several years, they popularize this idea called the drive. And the drive directly translated from French means drifting. So it basically means that you go out on a walk and you just find by happenstance, you just drift through city streets and you go on this really amazing walk and you don't know where you're going to end up and you feel really refreshed afterwards and you're discovering all these different things.

31:19That's why cities like Paris and New York and Boston and Amsterdam, you have this wonderful feeling when you're there because they're designed for walking and for drifting. Is that why I feel so much better in Paris and New York? Yes, because of the walkability of the cities. And derivatives are really important. And even if you don't live in a walkable city or if you live in a suburb, you can drive to places where you can do that or you can just find that in your neighborhood. But these derivatives and the idea of a drifting walk or not always having a destination, not always logging stuff and not always saying, how many calories did I burn or how much time am I on this walk or how loud is my playlist or all that stuff.

31:51Even I say to people, start out with, even if you're logging your walk, take your headphones out for the first five minutes of the walk. Just the first five minutes. Just situate yourself in where you are and figure out like, okay, I'm here. And I've been doing it more and more where I wear my headphones less and less when I'm outside working out. When I'm at Equinox, I'm always going to be wearing my headphones. That's amazing. I feel like you're the opposite of habit stacking, which is actually a really big secret of the rich. And it's like a lot of people are not in the place that they can just like afford to think.

32:19But I think what I've really identified around some of the smartest people and the richest and most successful people I've been around is that they really prioritize travel alone time thinking, being alone. And it's interesting because I can even tell with my boyfriend, like when he gets the most stressed, he feels like he hasn't had time to think. And I don't know what the exact, the correlation would be between like solo alone time and like being able to discover that next big idea. But if someone feels like they're just trying to fit it all in and like have a social life. And I often see these TikTok trends of the woman who's like, I'm folding laundry, trying to keep up with my friends, do my hair, keep up with my beauty routine, my workout routine, my work, my family.

33:01How can they carve out time for drifting? It's about changing your schedule. So if you feel like you don't have any time in the day, wake up 30 minutes earlier, wake up 45 minutes earlier, or look at your screen time and separate it into those three categories, productive, mindless, and fun. If you have two hours of mindless screen time a day, make that go to an hour and take that hour and do something else with it. That's a big piece of it. There's always time that we can find in our days to drift or to do things. It may not be every single day, but the time can be found. The number one thing I say is don't overschedule your days.

33:30Allow yourself when you're on vacation, like have bookends or have like a dinner plan, but let yourself just drift. And that's what I do. If I'm in Amsterdam, I'm like, I spend a lot of time there. I have a second office there and I'll sometimes be like, oh, this is the bookstore that I want to go to, but then I'll just like drift amongst the canals and just let yourself go and not have everything be so pre-scheduled. And then you come back from your vacation and you're not even relaxed. I am going to use this when my boyfriend on our next trip, who is a maximalist, asks me, what are the plans for the day?

33:59Because that's what I'm responsible for. I'm going to be like, we're drifting today, sweetie. Like that's what we're doing. And have one maximalist day. And then the next day, like it's about balancing it too. Yeah. Okay. I feel like when you're in a place one time and you're maybe not going to go back, you want to see things. But it's also like I, my husband has really helped me a lot with this because he's been everywhere. And so he has this great attitude of like, we'll come back. Exactly. Like we don't have to fit everything in. Yeah, we don't have to fit everything in. And even if you won't go back, you don't have to see everything.

34:23You talk a lot about maximizing your schedule, though. And I'm very interested in your expert opinion on your use of AI. Yeah. How do you feel like AI can actually help people achieve all of the tips and the things that we're telling them to do to have these better relationships and time in their life? So I actually talk about AI a decent amount in my work, which is surprising to some people because my podcast is called Progression to Analog. and I speak a lot about analog and I wake up before going on my phone. But I've spoken at World Summit AI in Amsterdam and the Responsible AI Forum in Munich and a lot of other conferences on what's called the socio-technical approach to AI.

34:57What it means is that we're jointly optimizing for people and technology. We're making sure that there is an optimal amount of technology in our everyday so that it is balancing the human and technology. And that's a really important thing to think about, whether we're thinking about it on the macro level. So with companies, I sometimes help them. Okay, you want to start with AI, but you can't do everything at once, right? Like you just can't. Where do you start? What's one problem that you can solve for? But in your everyday life personally, that's a big piece of it. It's like, what are one or two things that AI might be able to help?

35:25But also realizing that AI is not going to solve or fix or do everything perfectly. One example I like to give is that, so if I'm writing an academic paper or a paper for a client, and I I usually do my citations in American Sociological Association. You have to switch to another citation. That would have taken me hours and hours and hours and hours. Now I can do that really quickly with AI. But then you can use that time to then daydream, to drift, to do other things. So that's the ideal situation, I think, with AI, is that we're reducing the amount of time that we have manual labor or tasks.

35:56And then we can use that time to daydream or to drift. The problem I see with it is that people over-rely on it, overuse it. also look at it as a source of objective truth, which there's a lot of bias and, you know, the same biases that humans have and sometimes just things that aren't fully there with AI. And so that's a scary piece of what I see is just using it to solve and fix and do everything. It's like, oh, you know, let me just put out 20 pieces of content and have AI, you know, spit out all these things. I mean, as recently as a couple of weeks ago, I was still testing it. It hallucinates a lot.

36:29It gives you a lot of incorrect information. Oh, no, I fully put in a YouTube video yesterday to try to see like, how did they structure this out? And it gave me the wrong name of the creator back. And I was like, are we watching the same video? I literally said that to them. So there isn't like, it's not a source of truth right now. Well, and this is what I think is really dangerous around creators. And I guess just like how the algorithm works is that you can have a hook to a video that's very polarizing and isn't necessarily going to be true. But if our attention spans like six to eight seconds and you don't actually end up watching the full video, there's a really big fashion creator who used to also work in banking that put out this video that was like, I don't believe in using AI.

37:05You're getting rid of all of your critical thinking. And it was like using this trend to kind of like tear down AI, which I see that side. But I also see the side where if you aren't encouraging your followers to explore and learn how to prompt and like understand where this is going, you are going to fall behind. And someone that's listening to this that wants to start incorporating AI into their everyday life, where do you suggest that they go to even learn? How do they prompt? What are they doing? How can they become more familiar with it? Yeah, I actually just interviewed this amazing guy, Jonathan McRae, on my podcast.

37:39And he is in Ireland. And he has this whole thing called Get Started with AI, where he talks a lot about what can you do. There's tools like Stanford Storm or obviously OpenAI's tools that you can start experimenting with. But I think it's about thinking, where are there parts of your everyday life that you would like to reduce the amount of time that you spend on those tasks? And where could you figure out ways to move forward in that? So it is that socio-technical approach. It's like, what can I do? So one example of that might be, OK, I have all these content ideas. And I've already fleshed them out myself.

38:11Like, I've written 30 of them. Let me one by one say, hey, would this work with an audience of X? Or what are ways that you might critique this? I think looking at we like to there's been a lot of studies also that have shown that we like to get we like AI to be really nice to us. Right. Like we also anthropomorphize AI and we treat it really nicely. Actually challenge it and kind of be a little mean to it and ask it for critical input and critical thinking and critical thought. And that's where you can get some value from it is really asking it to be kind of a critic of some of your ideas or some of your thoughts.

38:41You've been teasing a new book on how smartphones are reshaping intimacy and communication. What is the book's core argument? It's that smartphones affect our everyday life, work, and relationships. And actually, what's interesting is that I won't know the book's core argument until we get a lot of the data back because I'm trying to do one of the largest studies on smartphones that has been done before in understanding the way that people use it on an everyday basis and how people feel good about their relationship with their smartphone and also where those challenges lie and getting really into the nitty gritty pieces of it.

39:11Are you allowed to share what your hypothesis is before you get the data back? Yeah. So right now what we're seeing is that people have complicated relationships with their smartphones. And there's two big problems that people find with their smartphones. One was within work communication. It is a really big thing that I'm seeing with people so far is that they feel really overwhelmed and they feel like workplace communication is the root of some of their trouble with their smartphones. They say, I would like to take time off my phone, but I have to be on all the time to respond to my work email.

39:39And then once I open my phone for my work email, I'm just back on social media and I'm back on. And so one of the things I actually do with my organization is I help with making workplace communication better and reducing the number of channels that you have because it's just not efficient. But you look at the responses and people really feel like I'm always on. I mean, think about work in like the 70s and 80s. You just go home. I mean, it's so different. And actually, there's a lot of data. Like some of my research was just cited in a Harvard Business Review book. And it talks about how more time with technology doesn't always mean more productivity.

40:08And so that's really interesting finding that I'm seeing is that people are saying that this workplace communication is too much. It's I'm on a call with a client and then also getting a Teams notification, also getting an email and like this needs to be streamlined. And so communication norms is a big piece of this is figuring out, OK, this is for this channel and this is for this channel. Asynchronous communication or texting for exchanges of information and synchronous dialogue for ideation, creation or connection. So that's a that's a big thing. So you found it authentic social. Can you just describe to the listeners like what you guys do and who the ideal client is?

40:39Yeah. So we're an applied research lab at the intersection of sociology and technology and few things. So I speak around the US and Europe about technology's effect on conversation, relationships, things like that. So bigger conferences, I'm writing a book right now. Also, we do workplace design and focus a lot on how technology affects communication, conversation, and the way that employees can feel what they're most productive, but also feel their best selves at work. So we've worked with companies like, again, Herman Miller's parent company, Miller Knoll, Salesforce, a lot of other big companies on how can we optimize this workflow.

41:09And so where I used to be is we used to work with companies for like three or so years. And sometimes now we just go in for a quarter or even sometimes companies will say, you know, for two hours, can we just work with you and look at our communication styles, look at the way that we're working and help us figure out what we're doing. So I have these four principles of socio-technical design where I first look at everyday conversation, how people are communicating, then companies' technology use, then the sense of place and where people are working and how they're working. And then number four, which is really the most important, is understanding companies, understanding your employees' experience on an everyday basis.

41:39And so using something called ethno-methodology. And really, it's this branch of sociology that I study that is really just focused on the everyday. Because a lot of companies don't have any idea what their employees do on an everyday basis. On a macro level, they're like, yeah, they're doing this, this, this. And so how I justify my spend is I'll go into an organization. And when I worked at LinkedIn, I was top there in terms of business development reps. And I did this churn reduction toolkit that we use company-wide. And one of the things I will go in and say is, hey, if we can reduce your spend on technology, you might be overspending by$12 million a year in softwares that your employees aren't using, that you could actually wrap these into.

42:14So that's right away how we can go in and justify our spend and then figure out, okay, how can we make people want to stay at the company? Because also attrition rates is something else that we see. It really hurts companies. And doing all these things, it's nice because it helps the employee experience, but it also is directly tied to a company's bottom line and how they're actually working. And so I like the workplace design piece. And I like having part of my job be research, where I'm just going and presenting this research. I was in Sweden the week before my wedding and just all these different places.

42:41But having the academic piece and then having the practical piece is a nice kind of way to work together because companies always know that they're getting the fresh research and perspective. Caitlin, we're going to do some rapid fire, which I feel like will be really fun with you. TikTok or Instagram? For the rest of your life, you can only pick one. TikTok. Love it. Text, voice note, or FaceTime? Voice note. Is that from a family or a work colleague? Ooh. That's from a, that's from a, it's from a work colleague. Yeah. I agree. FaceTime for a friend. Yeah. FaceTime for a friend. Okay. Who is your favorite comfort creator?

43:14Comfort creator? Hmm. You. I love your stuff. Really. I really do. Thank you. I think it's, I think you really strike a lot of chords with people and you show a lot about. I like HSR because it's like all the different parts of us. And there was that one podcast you were on in December where you said one thing you'd add to Hot, Smart, Rich is happy. And I think that that's encapsulated in everything that you do. That is so nice. And I wouldn't say you're my favorite comfort creator, but you're my favorite educational creator. Thank you. When I found your content, I just loved the way you communicate really complex things into a very digestible way.

43:47That's my goal. Okay. You can only read one book for the rest of your life. the society the spectacle by gie debor oh actually or the revolution of everyday life by roe vanagam they're the two situationists that i'm most obsessed with but on a little like they have two very different outlooks on life but those are my two favorites okay read receipts off or on on really yeah okay oh actually okay it's not a binary answer i i have it like on with some people and off with some people so if you're seeing if you're watching this and you don't see them, I have them turned off for you. Muting or unfollowing people?

44:27Both. I think I have, I had a situation recently where I'm not friends in real life with the person and I don't, I don't think it serves either one of us to be connected that way. So you unfollowed? Yeah, I did. But I, we spoke about it. So actually the first time that I've ever had to do that was, it was a couple months ago. In real life or Zoom meeting? In real life. Oh my gosh. Not even a contest. That's why I would never record the podcast online. No, Zoom meetings too. You're understimulated. That's why you're looking at a million things. There's a study that came up recently that says you're actually understimulated.

45:00That's why you're looking around. It's too much. I would so much rather an in-person meeting. I'd fly anywhere to go see someone for 30 minutes than to, no, I hate it. Okay. What is one app that you would keep on your phone for the rest of your life, but it's the only one you can leverage? Oh, besides like iMessage? Yeah. That's so hard. Has to be just Spotify. Listen to music. And the HSR podcast. You can learn and listen to music. And I feel like it reminds me of just like the iPod days. Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin, I had so much fun talking to you today. Where can people find you? They can find me on TikTok, on LinkedIn, on Instagram, pretty much anywhere.

45:38What's your username? Username on Instagram is Katie B, C-A-I-T-Y-B. TikTok is Katie Begg, C-A-I-T-Y-B-E-G-G. But my name, Caitlin Begg. There's a few other Caitlin Beggs, but when you Google, I should come up. Thank you so much for coming on HSR. What can people in the community do to help you right now? Well, also my podcast, Progression to Analog, is every week. And we have lots of different ways about exploring a more human every day and taking some of the TikToks that I do and putting them into more long form and also interviewing guests on how we can integrate technology into our lives, but in a more human way.

46:08So if you're looking to, say, get involved more with AI or have a better relationship with your phone, there's all the different scope of topics. Caitlin, thank you so much for coming on HSR. This is so much fun. So much fun. and HSR, please make sure that you rate, review, subscribe, go follow Caitlin, go listen to her podcast, and we will see you next week. Bye.