Jackie Aina: I Block People to Protect My Business "I Have Too Much To Lose"

23:55And I was making that content and I was doing that work. But at the end of the day, like I had to be able to sleep at night knowing that I have an audience of people who saw me before brands did. And I would much rather make them feel seen than like a CEO who can invite me on their yacht. Like, that's cool. But like so many other people have yachts booth and they do it by seeing people that you're ignoring. So it just there's levels to it, though. I'm not going to say that I came right off the gate swinging. No, it definitely like, like as I built, as I got more followers, as I built up more trust, I think I got more emboldened.

24:34It wasn't like day one. I was just like ripping. You know what I mean? Like I would make notes and comments and I'd be like, oh, that's not a shade that works for me or I'm not happy with that. I was vocal. But over the years, as I felt, as I got more emboldened, then I got more comfortable. Like as I started to feel like my position was safer. And also, is your position ever really safe? I don't know. Like, I don't know the answer to that. You know, or at least I didn't know the answer to that 10 years ago because I didn't know where the industry was going at that point. But I just had to do what I feel was right.

25:09But I was always professional. I was always professional. So it wasn't like I would say this is trash. This is da-da-da-da. I would sit down and I would say this is what I don't like. This is what you could have done better. And at the end of the day, if they like it, great. If they don't, then, I mean, I have to do my, this is my job. You know what I mean? This is my job. So I just led with professionalism and with honesty. Was there ever a post that you regretted? I can't say there is one at all in the single, nope, I said what I said. Even when people have tried to get me blackballed, even when I've gotten some not so nice letters to my management and my agent.

25:47No, you did it. So why are you mad that I'm talking about it? No, I don't regret anything at all. Not even looking at a single, no, there isn't a single one that I'm like, oh, like I don't even know if there's anything I could have done better because I've always been professional. Like I don't feel the way at all. No. Is there a brand that you think has evolved like truly genuinely from taking criticism and is genuine in their approach to diversity today? Actually, yeah, I have a really good example of this one. And it's a it's a brand found that I'm now friends with. So Huda Beauty. I love Huda.

26:23But I ain't gonna lie, I used to be kind of on her neck. I was not here for a lot of Huda's antics in the infancy of her brand. Like, well, actually, so I followed Huda before she launched Huda Beauty. I was like a day one, because I used to live in the Middle East, so I was kind of like boots on the ground. Like, I knew about Huda before the girls in the U.S. really knew about Huda. And I was a fan then, loved her work. She was huge. She already had an empire in like 2011. Like she was big. So I was already I was already a fan. I was always following her. But there were some things I wasn't really like really fond of.

27:02Like she didn't really, in my opinion, in my professional opinion. So there was this thing like Instagram used to have these like repost pages and they wouldn't really post their own work. They would post like other people's glam work in their pictures and stuff. So that's kind of like how Huda Beauty's page got to where it was now. And like, I really didn't think they in the early stages did a good job at representing darker skinned Black women very positively on the page. And I was very vocal about that. and then when she started the right around the time she started the brand it was just lashes and then they moved into the complexion category and everybody knew that if a brand launched a complexion category they pretty much came to me to get the thumbs up or the thumbs down so when she launched complexion I reviewed it I featured it I talked about it and it was very clear to me that at least from what I saw it was very clear to me that with the start of that product they were trying to change the tides of how they previously, I think, I think they want, they made a conscious effort to include everyone.

28:09So I thought that was really admirable. And then over the years, as she continued to like come out with more product launches, it was like, oh, this isn't just like a one-off. This isn't just like a gimmick. Like she really pulls up. She really represents a wide range of people when she launches stuff. So yeah, I was just kind of like quietly peeping And like, I really admire that about her because I've been critical of her and they've never sent me a scathing email. They've never threatened me. They've never like retaliated. Never. And now they like, I recently went with them to Paris last year.

28:44Like I have a great working relationship with Mona, also the founder of KLE. Like we're really good friends, actually. They're really sweet, very supportive. but it was it was a I guess natural and organic friendship that originally came from me kind of being like not here for it like I was just like listen the girls are saying this and when I started noticing things I was when I started talking about it but like I really do think she's done a excellent job at like not getting one she doesn't get online and be defensive and clap back at people when they were saying these things about her which I think is good and she just quietly did the work to change the trajectory of the brand and like represent and see people I admire that.

29:21I really do. You just said that they didn't send you skating emails or threats. Have you gotten that from other brands?

29:32Girl, sometimes they would send me emails when I didn't even say anything. Like if my followers were dragging them on my behalf, they would treat me like I was the ringleader of it. And I'm like, I don't know if you think there's like a secret group chat somewhere. Like, I don't, why am I responsible for what they're saying? Like, why am I cash astray? Yes, there's been several. Yes, several. One thousand percent. Is this what led you to take a break from social media for a full year? No, I think it was probably COVID that kind of like spearheaded because it felt like a weird time in post makeup tutorials.

30:13Nobody was going nowhere. So it was like, what am I even, what's the point? Why am I doing a wear test? wearing it where like, I don't like this is, this is awkward. It just felt a little like, oh, this is weird. And you know, that was around the time when I realized like, I've also never taken a break from YouTube. So that was when I was like, you know what I, I experienced what I didn't realize at the time, but I was definitely experiencing burnout, like a creative burnout of like constantly on an upload schedule. I mean, I was uploading like twice a week for basically so you know you said my first viral video was 2014 so once I got that I was like I'm never putting the camera down and I was basically uploading like two to three times a week up until 2020 without stopping which is nuts no producer mind you no producer just an editor so I was the talent I was the script writer sometimes my videos were scripted most times they weren't.

31:11I was also the producer, technically, the videographer, and the makeup artist for like six years. No break, no time off, no nothing. We don't talk enough about how hard setting up a business actually is. It feels like you're fighting a new battle every single day. And then once you've solved that battle, an entirely new set of problems arrive. Having tools that help you streamline any part of your setup and backend is a huge unlock. There is truly no other platform to use other than our sponsor, Shopify. It's the one I always recommend to entrepreneurs who are looking to set up a business for the first time.

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33:04It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. What did taking that break teach you about parasocial relationships that we have today? Oh, gosh. That is a very jarring topic for me. But you know what? I also have like a unique, I feel like I have like a unique point of view on parasocial relationships. Because for the most part, in the time that I was doing my makeup content for, at that point, well over a decade, I really only talked about makeup. So there was nothing else. Like, my relationship wasn't the content. My personal life definitely wasn't the content. You never saw my house. You really only saw me from, like, the collarbone up.

33:51So it was really easy to maintain. And yet I still somehow built a... Honestly, I feel like it's kind of a slay, though. Because, like, I built a community of people who were, like, locked in, but I didn't have to, like, lose myself in getting that. And that, to me, was, like, a flex that I feel like a lot of people really struggle with because they, you know, like, we live in the era of, like, oversharing. And, like, if that's someone else's vibe, listen, if you like it, I love it. But it was never going to work for me. It was never going to work for me. But I'm so blessed that I was still able to build the community that I have without having to do that.

34:32You know what I mean? And so 2021, 2020 and 2021 was right around the time I started doing more lifestyle content. So it was a little uncomfortable for me when people, but I went into it knowing like, okay, if you start posting this, you have to expect some level of, you know, like interest in a different way that people haven't seen you. So that I understood. But to answer your question, the parasocial part, as it started to get more intense, I was like, I really struggled with that because I was just like, wait, like, I only I only give this. So, like, why are you over here? Like, it was really an adjustment for me for sure.

35:13One thousand percent. And honestly, I'm going to lie. It's something that I'm still kind of like, whew, not too much. Not too much. Because I give, and I feel like I give a good, well-rounded, personable type of content. So it's like, well, if this is what I'm giving, you can't demand more of me. That's what I'm going to give. And I feel like I give a lot. So thinking before you speak, that's also another tip. One of my pet peeves when I'm watching a podcast or when I'm watching a public speech is hearing um, um, um every other sentence. So when I'm speaking, instead of saying um as like a filler word, I stop and think.

35:51But then the byproduct of that is that I can give a more thoughtful answer. so that's one of the things that I have really kind of mastered over over the years is just pausing taking a quick beat think about what I want to say think about how I want to answer it no one's going to judge you for being silent like you're just thinking you know what I mean you're just processing internalizing and then if I do that I'm less likely to overshare when I'm responding to something or ramble or spill well I do be rambling I do talk girl I don't know if you can notice but like I'm less likely to just blur out anything without thinking if that makes sense what is the craziest rumor you've heard about yourself oh my god there's so many that I bought my own engagement ring which is nuts because what the hell what do I look please I don't know what strain you got to be smoking to even think that but absolutely not you know what's also interesting It's stuff that, like, most times ain't even about me.

36:51Like, it'll involve, like, my sisters or, like, my husband. Like, it's never really something that reflects me. It's weird. Or, like, me and my husband, we had, like, a long engagement. And over the years, there were these, like, floating rumors that he refused to marry me. And I was just like, based on what? Like, I'm confused. That one kind of threw me. Because it's, like, it's one thing if a rumor snowballs from something else that's, like, a truth. But like most times they come from literal thin air and I'd be so confused. I'm my housewife. I'm not on Bravo. I'm not on Peacock. So I'd just be so confused.

37:26Where's some of these? I'm just like, I'm confused. Who are the sources? I don't know. Well, one of the things I found so interesting about the research call that my team did with you was that you have self-identified as the queen of blocking. Oh, absolutely. And you have the most amount of users blocked as possible on your TikTok. One thousand percent. So how when did that become a strategy for you to start blocking people based on the parasocial relationships going from wanting makeup tutorials to now having crazy rumors being made up about yourself? I just okay I just feel like I turn into one of these figures that people expected a lot out of at one point like way more than they would expect from other people and so people would just talk to me all kinds of crazy and crazy in a way that was like this is not even like I would get comments that were not even like constructive you know what I mean like it's like people you know people Well, you're online, like you're on TikTok.

38:27People online can be mean for sport, like for fun or just to get you to react or just to rile you up or just to say someone so responded to me. Like I started to realize like, oh, this is not even like coming from a genuine constructive like you just want attention. And I think once you identify that, it becomes easier to one, not take it personal. But also, two, I actually block people because I'm doing them a favor, because if I respond, I'm going to cuss you out. I'm going to cuss out your bloodline. I'm going to call your university. Like, I'm actually doing you a favor by not reacting the way that I really could.

39:03Because I might slaughter you. Like, I might really hurt your feelings. Now, I don't have a plan, Maggie. Like, I can't. Like, I have too much to lose. I have too much to lose. And user 943-888-1000 infinity will never be worth it. So I would just rather spare myself and spare the other person. Because really, like I said, I'm doing them a favor. I just block them. And it's like, I don't really need the engagement that bad. Some creators, they'll leave the comments because they know that I don't need the engagement that bad. I love what I do and I want to continue to enjoy what I do. So I just like and move on.

39:36I had someone, Collins Key, I'll call him out. He's a huge YouTuber. He is in YPO with my husband. And he said to me when I was starting to go online and starting to get these comments, he goes, your social media is your storefront. and if someone came up to your physical storefront and put a sign on the door that said your products suck you would take the storefront sign down because that is the user experience of someone going to your store so don't even feel bad about blocking people and deleting comments because your social media is your storefront and I have never thought about it that's so good in the same way that's actually so good but you know what also that reminds me is that it's not only your storefront.

40:15But again, I'm really big on community. So think about like someone writes a comment and maybe it's racially fueled. Maybe it's really disgusting. Maybe they're talking about my hair. Maybe it's anti-Black. Maybe it's a really problematic comment. I think about the 17-year-old girl who's going to see that or young boy or 25-year-old or 30-year-old who might be deeply, deeply impacted by those comments or by those, you know, by that, those negative comments as well. So, yeah, I actually like that analogy because it's not just for me as the owner of the storefront, but like the patrons, you know, the people, the community, I don't want them to see that garbage either.

40:57So take it down. So I love that analogy. That's perfect. Have you ever felt like you were going to be canceled? Not like, not really, no. I mean, like I've been dragged. It's like every other month now, but no, not really, no. Can you take me to the moment where you see yourself getting dragged or getting backlash? How do you feel? You know, it's only weird when like, I don't see it coming when it comes out of thin air. So the most bizarre one was after our wedding. There were people saying that I blocked them for congratulating me after my wedding, which was not true. I didn't post about my wedding.

41:38So I think what they were trying to insinuate is that I didn't want people to talk about it or something. I don't know. It was very strange. But basically, I got married. And the moment we got engaged, me and Dennis were like, hey, like, I'm not going to be your 2024 bride. Like, I'm not posting that shit. shit. Like I said right off the gate, like I'm not publicly documenting my wedding and Dennis is not really an influencer. So he's very much on the same page. And so I just changed my name one day on socials. And so naturally they realized like, oh my God, she got married and people were really excited.

42:15It was really cute. Someone wrote a crazy comment on one of my TikToks. I deleted that person and blocked them. That person made a video and basically lied and said, I don't remember what the comment was but they basically said oh I just congratulated her and she blocked me so then you know the internet loves they love taking something and running with it so then naturally I was getting trolled congratulations it was like okay guys we get it but like I'm not blocking people for congratulating me so that was bizarre but I just didn't feel the need to respond to it so I just kind of was like all right well having been online for almost two decades now would you recommend if a brand is going through controversy or pushback or backlash, they give a statement or they kind of just like keep posting, put your head down.

43:01Obviously, if there's legalities involved, different situation. But if it's more just consumer feedback and community feedback, what is your recommendation? Yeah, as a brand, I do think you need to acknowledge it, especially if something's done that hurts a community or offends a particular community, I do think there is so much power in acknowledging it, apologizing for it if it's necessary, and moving on. And you know what? You got to be willing to admit this apology is not going to make people get off your neck, but sometimes that's not the point. You still should do it just to say you did it and move on and allow people to feel the hurt that they are experiencing, depending on how bad the offense is.

43:51Sometimes I've seen some brands do some crazy things and I've been like shocked at the lack of like intentionality they put behind responding to it. And it really does cause a severe lack of trust as a consumer. Because me and you, like even as founders, we're still consumers as well. So it's like, yeah, not even as a founder, like as a consumer, I wouldn't patronize your business because what on earth is this? This is just, if you don't put out a statement or if you respond to backlash in a really lackluster, unmeaningful way, to me that signals this is not a brand I can trust to not do this again.

44:30I can give my money to anybody else. There's so many brands now. I just saw your post this week on the podcast page that women-owned businesses are like 40 % of the U.S. economy right now. That's so impressive. I love that for me. And I love that for you because now to me, it's like, well, if you mess up, I could just go get my money to someone else, especially another woman. We vote with our dollars. 1 ,000%. You are obviously now a founder, which even I love the way you just said it. Girl, I'm a founder. I have way too much to lose. talk to me about your community and what they wanted because my assumption if I was an investor and you would come to me pre your brand and you were like I want to launch a brand my first thought would go to like an inclusive makeup complexion brand where it's like you've built this amazing reputation and as a thought leader and I'm interested in the community and forever mood and how you got to starting specifically first with candles now obviously you've evolved quite a bit.

45:36But talk to me about the decision that went through in your head of like, I have this community, I want to service them, and I'm going to go this direction and not what maybe people are expecting of me. Yes, it was a really pinnacle moment for me professionally, because you're right. When we first started teasing that I was launching a brand, I didn't come right out and say what it was. But naturally, everybody's go to response or expectation was makeup because that was what I was known for. But the thing is, is I honestly genuinely thought Forever Mood was going to be like a passion project of mine.

46:12I had always, always wanted to have a fragrance brand. Years before we had launched it, we had already been talking to manufacturers. We've been talking to fragrance houses. We've been talking to incubators. I've been telling my team. I genuinely thought it was going to be a side quest. I never thought it was going to be the main gig. Like I thought it was going to be something that I did just because I genuinely, genuinely love fragrance. And then I was thinking makeup line, but it just wasn't, there was other things behind the scenes that were working. I'll put it that way. But yeah, girl, when I launched it, I was just like thinking really small and me and my co-founder husband, Dennis, we thought we had like six months worth of inventory.

46:58So we honestly really went into it thinking very modestly like thinking like we'll crawl before we walk we'll get this amount of product girl the way they blew through what we hoped would be six months worth of inventory in like four hours 20 ,000 candles later I was like oh this isn't a passion project I was actually kind of scared. I was like, oh my God, like we don't have nearly all of in place what we thought we were going to need. Like we, girl, we had to just completely restructure everything. Like we had to just like jump full in at that point. And it's literally only been onward and upward since then.

47:50But I genuinely in my heart of hearts thought it was going to be a fun little life. I thought it was going to be like a fun little side gig. Like, I no longer believe that side gigs, when you start a brand, you have to really think, like, this could also be a Fortune 500 company, boo. Like, you got to think bigger. But at the time, I was like, it's going to be fun. It's going to be cute.

48:17Changed a lot since then. But yeah, I was thinking much more small. you've said that shifting away from being known as a creator first to being known as a brand founder is actually a very difficult change in people's perception of you what do you think it takes for people to really think of you as a founder first and not a creator you know what i think consistency and also i've definitely like i'm really struggling with youtube right now I know my manager is going to kill me when she sees this but I've had to pull back in some areas because I don't have a choice you know what I mean and I think that signals to people oh priorities are shifting and showing up in different spaces so like I do more public speaking now I take on more opportunities like this more now too because I love being able to talk about behind the curtain like I feel like people love that kind of stuff you know they get to see like oh okay like if she can do it if you can do it I can do it too but like you have to be consistent through that you can't you know one month be just the youtuber and then the net you know what I mean like you really have to follow through and continue to show the audience the community the team that this is the new area you're moving into but I think it also takes time like it's not something that you can just snap your fingers and accomplish, but it does take time.

49:46I'm so interested because this is actually a challenge I face a lot myself for someone who's like worked really hard and can reap some of the benefits of it. You have talked very openly about how you had no money growing up. Like you were working in the army for$200,$300 a month. And now you've been able to work your ass off to be able to afford a lifestyle that like you are so proud of, yet you make products at an accessible price point for the masses. how do you balance that relationship with your community of like living a luxurious aspirational life and then making products and selling products to people that are very accessible forever mood is what i would consider like mastiche so it's right in the middle it's not mass it's not like full-blown like highest price tier but it's right in the middle when we created the brand i didn't want to compromise fragrance quality like i wanted to i wanted the brand to have a specific visual and aesthetic.

50:41It is technically considered a luxury brand, but it's like accessible, like you said, accessible luxury. And that was important because I was like, well, I'm ready to bring it. Like my point of view on fragrance, I knew that it was going to require a bit of an investment on our part, but then also on the customer. So I wanted to keep that top of line, top of priority. And to answer your question about like, how do I manage and balance the difference between Jackie, you know, 15, 20 years ago versus Jackie now. Well, I mean, we love a self-aware queen. Like I ain't broke and I can't pretend to be broke.

51:19Cause this is not, this is not from Shein, boo. Like I can't, like, I don't know. Like I can't, you know what I mean? Like I can't stand, like everybody says they love authenticity, right? But like, what does that actually look like? So why would I come online pretending to be like, Like, oh, my God, I'm just scraping. Like, I'm not. But I'm also not going to shove it in your face, but I'm going to show up authentically as I am. And it's OK. Like, I don't feel guilt about building the life that I have now because I for damn sure am not going back to Brooke. So there's that. And I don't think women should feel guilt about building something.

51:54But there's so much judgment online with women. And if you start making a little bit of money, oh my God, there's so much judgment. But then it's sad because it's like, well, if you've ever experienced poverty, you don't want to see other people experience that. Ever.

52:16Even if it makes you feel better, I don't want to see anybody else ever experience what I went through ever, even if I was still in it. So I think it's just acknowledging this is who I am, where I am now. And you'd actually be surprised. There's a community of people who like content like mine. They see it as aspirational. So I feel like as long as it's not exploiting anyone, as long as it's not hurting people's feelings, I feel like anything is fair game. You know, as long as it's not demeaning people, then, yeah, like I love doing luxury unboxings. I'm not going to do them every time I buy something luxury.

52:54But there is an audience of people who really do like that. And they know my life has changed and they're extremely supportive of it. And I also give back a lot. So I love seeing my community pouring back in. That's really, really important to me because so many people have done that for me too. How do you think about money today? Love it. That was fast. Love. What is your attachment style to money? It's not my motivator, but it is. I mean, it's definitely required to maintain the quality of life that I want. Yeah, like, I'm going to be honest. Like, I'm Nigerian. I was not destined for the broke life I was born into.

53:36And literally all my middle names, all my Yoruba, that's my dad's tribe, all of them translate to wealth. Every single one of them. And I have like four of them. I have a very long name. But I love money. I don't think you should be apologetic about liking money. I don't, this answer probably varied depending on who you ask. I don't think you should be motivated by money because then you won't have standards and then you'll do anything for it. But I'm not shy about asking what I'm worth or paying someone else to do that, my manager and agents. Yeah, it's extremely important to the quality of life that I want.

54:14And I think it's extremely important to just getting by, having resources, having health insurance, not having an overdrafted account, being able to pay rent. Like I used to have to juggle pay my Wi-Fi so I can upload YouTube videos because if I upload YouTube videos, then I could get AdSense money and have more money or rent. I would have paid Wi-Fi. Because Wi-Fi is how I pay the rent. Rent's going to be late, you know. I have to make those decisions now. Thank God. But I worked really, really hard for that. So, yeah, money is is is pretty important. And I also you know, I feel like it's also important to say, like, there's a certain quality of money that I'm also not willing to aspire to.

54:57Like, I personally don't have aspirations to build Forever Moon into a billion dollar company. And I say all the time, I have much lower standards. I feel like 100 million is great. Like, that's nothing to sneeze at. Like a hundred million, I'd be good. A billion, I don't know if I'm willing to do what that would require. Because I know it would take a lot. I know what billion dollar companies look like. And I don't, I think my husband would, but like I don't, I can't work that hard. I have to say from an investor perspective lens, having the aspiration to not build a billion dollar consumer brand is actually where you will find success.

55:39success because we are kind of over the era where when there was those direct-to-consumer darlings and we were building these billion-dollar brands and funneling VC money into them, they just like never could get there. And it was all the smoke and mirrors of like acquiring customers with this crazy VC money. And then you're left holding the bag at the end of the day because the industry shifted so much. With you and money as it relates to the company, you guys made a very conscious decision to not raise money from other people, other investors, and to self-finance things yourself. How do you think about that?

56:11And do you think your decision will ever change? Oh, it's absolutely changed. We've talked to investors. Nothing has just ever materialized. It's extremely hard for Black-led, Black-founded brands, but also women-founded brands as well. I'm not going to lie. I have it very lucky because he's the co-founder. So he's almost like the face of in a lot of ways. Your husband. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm like I'm technically like the face but it's still very like manly like there's just so much like mansplaining and like it's still you know you know this industry it's still so male dominated that it is actually extremely and and the great thing is that his background is also finance so thank god he alleviates a lot of stress on my end he's the person who's translating for me and like explaining what this means and this means like the word VC was very new to me before we started forever mode.

57:06Now I understand like what things like equity look like and like what all of these terms mean. But like having him to help navigate that with me has been so helpful. And yeah, we absolutely are open to investment. We just haven't found something that makes sense because I know that we both know we don't just want someone who will write a check. We want someone that will kind of roll up their sleeves with us. Maybe not every day, but like, you know, like I would want some strategy. I would love some expertise. I would want some mentorship. And I know he desires that too. Because you can give us the money and then we think we're using it the way that we can maximize or get the most out of it.

57:44But what if we're not? What if we make mistakes? I would love the guidance. That's all. Can we take a moment to talk about the least glamorous but most important part of building a business? Your systems. I see so many founders and CEOs in my ecosystem who are building incredible businesses, but their backend is just chaotic to the point where deals will literally go cold because no one is keeping track of where things are at. So if that's your business, you really ought to think about switching to our sponsor, PipeDrive, a simple and smart CRM for small and medium-sized businesses that's easy to use because it's all centered around a visual pipeline so you can see every deal, what stage it's in, and what needs to happen next.

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1:00:27American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Based on total potential value of statement credits on select purchases and other benefits, enrollments required, monthly, and other limits and terms apply. Learn more at americanexpress.com slash business dash platinum. Oh, from creator to entrepreneur, or you're forced to be into this world of acronyms and things you don't understand. And that's why I love so much one of the names of your fragrance. It's called NDA. First, can you explain what an NDA is and why it was important to you to call something that women are going to be consuming in a business term that might make them feel less intimidated when they hear something like that?

1:01:10So a non-disclosure agreement is basically a paper that you sign when you're going into business with someone or I have people sign NDAs when they come to my house. You know, it depends on what the transaction is. It's basically just saying like a clean agreement that says you're being trusted with trust and information. Don't disclose it to anyone else. This stays between you and I. There's so many different terms or conditions you can add to an NDA. But it's basically just like a written agreement that says, shh, keep your mouth shut. Basically, in layman's terms, Forever Mood, the whole idea with every product is we want every product to kind of tell a story.

1:01:50Because what I found in my experience in loving fragrance and being a fragrance consumer is that everybody interprets vanilla differently. Everybody could interpret citrus differently. But if I describe to you the vibe or if I paint the picture in a name, that I find sticks more with fragrance, way more than me just telling you what the notes are. So another example I'll give you is we have a scent that's called You Remind Me. It's actually one that I gave you. And it's a clean, second skin. So it literally, it's a musk. So it smells less like a literal person and more like someone's body chemistry, if that makes sense.

1:02:34And musk can shift depending on who's wearing it. It's also the scent that I got married in. So it's a very like clean and I wanted people to be reminded of something or someone. So that's why I called it You Remind Me. So with NDA, the notes are like spiced rum, tobacco. I think there's also... Vanilla bean. There's vanilla bean. I think there's also jasmine. It's like in tobacco flower. So it's like smoky and it's also creamy. It's masculine and it's feminine. It just smells like a scent that you would smell on somebody who is kind of polarizing. Like someone who would make you sign an NDA just for a lunch date.

1:03:17Like the vibe... Or to come over to their house. Or to come to their house. the vibe and the energy was supposed to kind of give like big Chanel shades like wolf like wolfer tights and a blazer you know wardrobe in what the wardrobe NYC girl the a liar girl like just someone who just doesn't necessarily want to be for everybody someone who would make you sign an NDA for the most minuscule stuff like bossy maybe a little closed off maybe a little unapproachable those are some of the words I thought of when I would smell that scent and that was why I gave it an NDA. I love that so much. And it's kind of why we do the show is to like democratize this access and this information.

1:03:59And I have been in so many meetings with people where they've been like, here's the NDA. For someone that's hearing about an NDA for the first time, should they be scared? No. Are people scared of NDAs? Yes. Wait, really? Why? Yes. Well, I think it immediately, and like this is another thing we talk about a lot on the show is power dynamics right and i think when you're with especially when you're entering into a new world and these people are using acronyms and they're using all these big things you're kind of like immediately in this place of you remember what it's like when you did your first few deals for youtube you do it for free because you want the exposure and you do it for product and then you get to a certain point where you're like this is my rate i don't do something without that it takes a lot of time it takes that exposure.

1:04:43And so I think the first time you probably see an NDA, you're in that position of like, is this person a lot higher in their power, in their status? And you almost, not that you'll ignore your morals or your values, but you're almost do things that you might not otherwise do when like you have points on the board, right? I see. Yeah. That makes sense. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So one of the things that like I'm so fascinated with, with your community, with your fans and the boundaries that you have with them is like, what do you show them about building the brand and the business? And then what is just something that's like just for you and your internal team?

1:05:17Oh, I mean, a lot is just for me and the internal team. I love talking about the process of like a scent story, like how many times a scent has evolved until from inception or like ideation to like launch. Like I like to share creative stories and things like that and creative evolution behind the scenes type stuff but I don't necessarily make my team a forefront on socials because it's like I don't want them to feel required or obligated to do that so those things are kind of off limits we don't really talk about like our like how much revenue we've accumulated in the first year we somewhat did like Shopify they give you like a 100 ,000 orders plaque.

1:06:07I think they have like different milestones. So, well, I guess you can't even really calculate that either because we have multiple SKUs, but we shared that. So like obviously 100 ,000 times our lowest selling product, you can roughly guesstimate, you know, and that was like years ago. So since then, we've obviously we've done a lot more, but we definitely don't like to talk about the revenue part because also sometimes people think, well, if your brand and I'm just throwing this number out there. This is not for us. But if your brand made a revenue of like 50 million, they think I have 50 million in my Wells Fargo bank account.

1:06:45No, it doesn't work that way. So I try to like separate the two because especially as I'm a creator, sometimes people don't have the ability to separate Forever Mood from Jackie. So I keep the hard numbers aspect very, very separate. Because otherwise, then people get a little too excited and they, you know, yeah, no, I keep that separate. You talked a little bit about keeping your teammates behind the scenes. Yeah. You obviously started this business with your husband. And I'm very interested because you have navigated a divorce. Experiencing a relationship firsthand that can fall apart, what gave you the confidence to start a business with your now husband?

1:07:24Oh, it was really hard. But I also think some of the comfort started when we first started dating. And then this was like, I had a manager then, if I remember correctly. I did have a manager. Actually, I think he helped negotiate my contract with my manager. He just started suggesting little things like, oh, who reads your contracts? And I don't even think I had anybody reading my contracts. And so he would ask me questions. And of course, I was doing what old Jackie would do. I got it. Being like, oh, this is not. Because mind you, I had to explain to him what a YouTuber was when we first started dating.

1:08:04He had no clue what this job was. He was fully in Morgan Stanley's world. He had no, and he's also not from here. He's British. So it was even more of a learning curve for him. He didn't know who Jacqueline Hill was, Michelle Font. Like, he didn't know none of the people. So I had to kind of, like, explain to him, you know, like, what those things were, what I do. Like, he still kind of didn't get it, but kind of did. But, like, he understood, oh, contracts. Like, do you want me to help? I was very, like, especially because I've been divorced. So I've already told my brain it is not safe to share spaces.

1:08:37Men and business are very, very, very separate. But then eventually it was like, well, I do need help. And like, you know, it doesn't hurt to get a second opinion. And I started to realize like he's phenomenal at reading contracts, by the way. And he's also dyslexic. I don't know if I mentioned that. But yeah, he, I think it's allowed him to be even more in tune with things because he has to be extra careful. So I started realizing like, wow, he has a lot of value. So that process started over some years before Forever Mood came about. and then when I decided or actually when he decided we were going to start forever mood he was like we should start now we should launch it in 2020 mind you the world was closed and I was like what in the hell are you thinking like what are you talking about why would we launch a brand in the middle of a global pandemic and he was the one that wrote a plan roughly estimated what it would it would cost.

1:09:31And that was the first time it felt doable. And so he took the initiative. So I just led with trust. I mean, I don't, I don't work at Morgan Stanley. He did. So like, I can't really like argue with that. So he's helped me over the years, allowed me to see things as more possible. so I guess that's what made me more comfortable over time. Dennis is also a Pisces. So sometimes he's more passionate and ironically, I'm more logic. So sometimes Dennis sees potential in things and I'm just like, I need proof. But when he started proof, proof, proof, I was like, oh, you ate that. You ate. I was just like, damn.

1:10:19Yeah, I mean, like, I like seeing results. so he continuously pulls up he delivered 1000 % way but also the commuting delivered because like I said we you know we started really modestly which I think is a good thing because we didn't think we were going to be like fully disrupting like we just were like we just want to do something fun we want to do something we have been talking about doing for years anyway but he 1000 % delivered and he did really well to pivot when we realized that the business was bigger than we initially planned yes oh 1000 % What's your horoscope? Leo. So do Leos and Pisces get along?

1:10:58I don't know. I don't know if it's a, it's funny because like when I tell people that they're always like, oh, good luck. And I'm like, yeah, I guess that makes a lot of sense. So I'm, his, his, he's also the firstborn in his family, which by the way, if you're a firstborn eldest daughter of immigrants and business and you're looking for a man, you need to find yourself another firstborn son. Why? Oh, my God, because they're doers. Don't you dare date an only son or the youngest. No shade. Why? They're the babies. They're so... The shining balls of their family lineage. Nobody lets them own anything.

1:11:40I'm generalizing, I know. But in my experience, the firstborns tend to be really great leaders. They tend to be a little bit more assertive. Dennis is very assertive. But I was kind of bossy. Like, I was kind of like, dang, like, I'm a little rough around the edges. Like, I think when we first started dating, I was like, dang, like, I don't really do be kind of, like, running shit. Like, this is crazy. And he's very sweet. And he's very like, oh, give people chances. And I'm like, for what? They already showed you? No. Cut them off. Get them banned. I don't care. Bye. I literally, I'm very like, I'm a little bit more like black and white.

1:12:22But he's taught me to be like, okay, life is not black and white. You can take your time. So we balance each other out in a really good way. You guys obviously work together now. How do you separate church and state? It's easier for me than it is him. Dennis will take his laptop to the jacuzzi. That's how out of control he is. and I'm literally like, give me that damn laptop. Like when he's in bed and he'll just like roll over and be like, babes, I want to show you this rendering and I'm like, go to bed. I'm not doing that right now. Once it's me time, I don't want to talk about approvals. I don't want to talk about briefs.

1:13:03I don't want to talk about contracts. I don't want to talk about the new hire. We could talk about that tomorrow at 9 a.m. Right now is my time. And of course he has a standing desk. desk people who have standing desks are nuts like they're just a different they're just a different breed of workaholic I don't know what it is about them damn standing desks I have to pry him away from that desk he's nuts when you see a girl on TikTok like doing her day in the life and she has a standing desk with a treadmill oh she don't play and I have a walking pad in my office too so I get it I don't have the standing desk but I do have a I am one to take zoom calls on the walking pad yes I absolutely do.

1:13:40But I know when to shut it off. I also have like a no laptop rule in like any other place because we also work from home. So it's another set of challenges, which, you know, you probably can relate to. I don't want the laptop at the kitchen table. That's for eating. That's for dining. That's for drinking. That's for breaking bread. Like I want every space in our home to be used as it's designated. But if we get too comfortable and if we have the laptops in the theater, the laptops in the breakfast nook, then nothing will ever feel like home. You know what I mean? How do you guys set up your life to have family meetings or boundaries as it relates to wealth and building wealth and like those types of conversations, especially when you come from a family where like it wasn't really talked about and it was very scarce?

1:14:27It was honestly a learning curve for me because my relationship to money when I was younger, I think surrounded a lot of or it involved a lot of like shame and guilt and a lot of embarrassment about not knowing how to manage it. Not knowing how to grow it, not knowing how to maintain it and so on and so forth. But Dennis is the exact opposite. So whenever he would like, like, hey, babe, I want to discuss this. I would have like a physical gut discomfort reaction. Like I was in trouble about something. And it took me like years to get over that because every it literally felt like he was calling me into the principal's office to like I like I thought he was going to scold me about something.

1:15:13I thought I'm you know I thought he was gonna give me a lecture on my spending or I something you know what I mean and also like it's it's like the equivalent of like you know when you get texts from someone they got they're like I gotta talk to you about something and it's like that that why of like oh my god the anxiety that's what I felt like whenever he would want to have family meetings about money and and so on and so forth so it's taking me some time to like get over that. But the great thing that I've learned and experienced with him is that he never makes me feel uncomfortable about it.

1:15:49Like I can ask him if I don't know what something means, I can ask him and he won't look at me like, why don't you know what that means? And I really appreciate that because that was the exact opposite of my upbringing. I was not taught about money at all. Someone that's listening to this that gets that gut feeling when their partner wants to talk about money or they're even in a relationship where they've never broached the topic. What's your number one piece of advice for them? Yeah, I think you need to be open to listening and I think you need to be willing to learn. If you don't know what something means, don't just assume they got it.

1:16:20Get in there, educate yourself, take control and don't be shy or squamish about it. Like, you know, we're you're a big girl like you can if you can do it, so can you. I have a lot of rapid fire to go through with you. So we're not done yet. Can I ask you some? Yeah, let's do it. I love a rapid fire. Okay. Jackie, what is the last possible thing you put on your credit card? Well, actually, technically the last thing was Postmates. Okay, what'd you get? A breakfast burrito. What is the last most expensive thing you put on your credit card? Ooh, I just got that Oura Ring sleeve from that brand. Have you heard of this jeweler, Logan Hollowell?

1:16:55Yes. Oh, it's so good. I haven't got it yet, but that was the last most expensive thing that I bought. Okay, perfect. I bought it like three days ago. Perfect. Okay, this is a new question that's going to become a consistent question. You inspired me. What is your credit card? Oh, an Amex. Okay, and you like it? I love it, yeah. Okay. You can only choose one for the rest of your life. Beauty or home content? I can't be ugly. But I can't be, damn.

1:17:28Beauty, it's easier. There we go. Yeah, beauty. What is the best beauty product on the market currently that is under$30? Under$30? You had me at the best, but you—oh, damn. The skincare count? Yeah. I really like that Dove shower oil he just came out with. That's tea. Okay. Do you have dry skin? Yes. I didn't mention it because we didn't get to it, but I also have hyperhidrosis. Oh, my God. So I actually used to get Botox underneath my armpits to stop sweating. Mine was so bad. Did it permanently stop? Now I go once a year. I used to have to go every quarter. Yeah. It's a whole struggle. Your whole wardrobe is dictated by it.

1:18:13It's a lot. Yeah. But I was going to say I like it because it's really hydrating. It's great for dry skin. Okay, perfect. You can only pick one for the rest of your life, both to consume and to make. Candles. I knew you were going to say this. Fragrance. I knew you were going to say this. Lifestyle accessories.

1:18:32it's got to be a perfume it has to be fragrance it's like yeah what beauty trend do you secretly hate right now i don't really think i hate any of them right now okay i can't think of any this is not 2016 so the girls are not doing the stuff they was doing then i don't i don't really feel like there's any wild ones right now that i know that i know of that i know of okay you can only live in one beauty era for the rest of your life. Oh my God, the current one. My makeup is the best. Like I'm the best at makeup I've ever been right now. So I'm going right now. Okay, it looks absolutely incredible.

1:19:10Thank you. You can only use one platform for the rest of your life. YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. Bye TikTok. TikTok is Twitter 2.0. They are lucky to have me put it that way. I love TikTok, but it is like getting out of control. I'm going to say Instagram. I'm a millennial. Sorry, I love Instagram. It's a control freak's dream. It's very superficial. I love it there. I'll be fake. I don't care. I don't care. I do these love notes to myself. It's almost like an affirmation to get away the toxic traits in my head. If you could only say one HSR love note to yourself for the rest of your life, what would it be?

1:19:52I would say if I do nothing else from this day forward, I've already done enough. Love that. Because I kind of ate that. And I'm happy exactly with what I built. I still want to do more, but I feel like I've lived such a full life that I'm happy with my portion now. Wow. Okay, last one. If you had to title this season of your life, what would it be called? I was going to say something really vulgar. Say it!

1:20:25I was going to say immediately in my head, I said, fuck you. But that's kind of mean. Let's be nice. Okay. I'll be nice. My era, my current era.

1:20:39Because I feel like it. I'm like, because I feel like it. Because I feel like it. That's it. I think that's the next name of your perfume. Because I feel like it. If I could fit on a bottle, I would absolutely put that on a bottle. Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now at Bloomberg.com.

1:21:20and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for a three-month plan, equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Default terms at mintmobile.com. A text says, you're on my mind. A bouquet from 1-800-Flowers says, you're my everything. Heartfelt moments belong in the real world, not just your phone. For 50 years, 1-800-Flowers has helped millions of people make memories that'll last a lifetime with gifts they'll cherish forever.

1:21:55Their expertly curated arrangements and gift baskets shipped nationwide with a 100 % satisfaction guarantee. Don't wait for the next big moment. Make it when you visit 1-800-Flowers.com slash Spotify today. That's 1-800-Flowers.com slash Spotify. I'm obsessed. But our next fragrance, the one that I'm wearing now, the one you said you liked, channels that exact same energy. Obsessed. And you'll love the name of this one. love. Jackie, where can people find you and how can HSR help you right now? Oh my God, that's so sweet. Well, you've already helped me by bringing me on. So thank you. Everybody can find me at Jackie Ina on all platforms, TikTok, Instagram, of course, YouTube.

1:22:34I have two Instagram accounts. My other one is at lavishlyjackie. That's all things home decor, lifestyle, florals, and all of the things. And at forevermood.com. F-O-R-V-R. There's no E's. Forevermood.com. At Sephora. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me.