Jonathan Van Ness EXCLUSIVE: He Reveals What Happened With JVN Hair (The Story He Hasn’t Shared Until Now)

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23:31So join us with the paid version of our newsletter, free, for three months with the link in the show notes to claim your free offer. One of the things that I actually was so fascinated about, and I really wanted to ask you because you talk on her podcast about how this experience kind of changed your catalyst for personal finance evolution. And I think a lot of people listening to this will be surprised to think about you as a top reality TV star at this time. I think you'd already written a book and people are like, well, didn't he just have the money to purchase the brand outright? What do you think that this experience has really done to you in your personal finance journey?

24:12I mean, at the end of the day, top reality star, self-employed. So for any self-employed entrepreneur, you would know. And I kind of had like similar financial habits, whether I was making like$30 ,000 a year or$3 million a year, which is like impulse buy now, think about it later. And I've worked really hard to budget. I've worked really hard to be more proactive about it. And I think it was the trauma of realizing that I was going to have like a seven-figure shortfall of something that I thought I was going to have. and knowing it's like not only does Amorous have employees like I have like seven full-time employees yeah I also found out through this process that I was like one of less than 10 % of American companies that with firms of under 10 employees that pay for all of their health insurance and all of their 401ks so I mean I also pay above industry standard like on all of my roles um so navigating that with a shortfall trying to keep my you know myself happy and hopeful through that was really hard.

25:12But I think that it, it also just, it taught me like, don't live so close to the edge. Which I think is important for everyone to hear, especially in this world that we live in, which is like show and like expend beyond your means. But it's like being able to have that safety net to figure out like, you never know what's going to happen. It's so important. Yes. Okay. So when song global comes in December, 2023, it sounds like you were really excited about this. Yes. Did you have a say at all in who bought it or walk me through the process for where you have these three buyers and you're like, okay, I want to go with this one.

25:43What happens? So that, so yes and no. Like if the Jojo people had come in and been like, we're going to offer 10 million, then no, because bankruptcy court would say, we need to pay off our debt. We're taking the 10 million. Correct. Amorous had almost$2 billion of it at the time. Which just to be clear, that's$2 ,000 million. You guys, I do this whole bit in my show now when I realized that a billion was like a thousand millions and not a hundred millions. Wow. That's why billionaires aren't supposed to exist, you guys, because that's a thousand millions. It's insane. That's so much Hermes. It is so much Hermes.

26:17So many houses. You can make a house made of box Kellys and just replace it any time. There's even the tiniest little scratch. So they have almost$2 billion worth of debt. So of course they're going to take a$10 million offer versus a$1.25 million offer. So if that had happened, that would have been really sad. But I also think if that had happened, I probably would have had legal recourse to like step away. Yes. And so I do think that ultimately Amorous did want a more beneficial working relationship between me and whoever because it would probably make their life easier later. So I didn't have a say, but I think everyone wanted because I wanted to stay with the brand and I wanted to preserve like as many people that we were employing at the time.

27:00That was my number one priority. So I think that had a little bit of weight, but the biggest weight was like who was going to pay the most. So it goes to Wensong Global. Yes, and I'm really relieved. What happens? I can't remember where I was on that day, but I remember when it happened. Like I had just had my butthole surgery and it was really painful. And Teresa was like, stop telling me about your butthole all the time. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I can't stop talking about my butthole. It's like, I just literally cannot stop talking about it because it just hurts so bad. And this is just so crazy.

27:35And I can't believe that my body, like, I cannot believe that my gay body betrayed me in this way. And so, yeah, I was just kind of dealing with that. And then when that, but there was like weeks there, like in like that, like November to early December, where like every time I would like walk into my bathroom and like look at my products, like it was like Julia Roberts and Pretty Woman was like, lay a whisper. and I was like no I was like look at my shampoo and conditioner in the shower and be like no I'm gonna go get fucking biolash I never want to see again I was just like so sad but I never did throw my stuff away I never threw it away but I was like I just like looked at it and I was like why I feel like fucking Nancy Kerrigan at 94 I was just like so upset and then when I realized that we were gonna have a future and we were gonna have a home I was like oh my god it feels so good to not resent you girls that was such a rough three weeks I didn't want to like feel about like that about you guys I just love you so much but the thought of us like not having a future was like really sending me and it just made me feel so sad yeah but yeah i had two buttholes so it's just like so much so you fix your butthole you only have one now yes thank god yes i've just been can i tell you though after that after that i was like okay if i do not have colon cancer i am so like if my butt's fine i'm still getting on glp ones because like ow like i cannot because like my body was just betraying me like left right and center and so that was like a huge turning point because I was in so much like physical and mental and like emotional pain that I was like I am done being stuck I'm like done not feeling good like I will do anything to feel better and so it really made me like I like I fired my business manager so you'll love this part of the story I fired my business team um because I was like y 'all are crazy that was I think what I wanted because I was on celebrity teams yes I was the person that was helping these people build brands.

29:25And like JV and I have to be honest, when I was first negotiating equity deals for clients, like I had no fucking clue what I was doing. I was like calling my sister, who's a CPA, like head of finance at a brand being like, what am I doing here? Like, how do I like do with this deal? I was trying to hire investment bankers to help consult for me being like, how do I negotiate equity for this client versus like, so I took it upon myself to really like help these celebrities feel empowered. And so that was the video where I I was like, he needs to fire his team because this is not something that, like, he didn't go to MBA business school.

29:59And so I'm so happy to hear that you did that. So you fire the team. Well, I still have, like, my agents and my legal team that got me into that deal. And so we talk about that sometimes. But that's okay. The other thing, too, that we did when we went with Windsong is I do have equity now. That's what I was going to say. Which is so exciting. So, like, how did you guys structure it now? Like, from that day forward, you're like, I have a new home. I have new partners. Like, what happens then? Well, I feel like my team kind of learned from their mistakes, which was good. And so now I just have, like, a base equity no matter what.

30:22which is amazing. Then in success, it can be like a different one. Okay. And then I also can get like bonuses based off of EBITDA, which is cute. So now I know what EBITDA is, which is really fun. So that's kind of how it is now. So like in success, if we sell someday, when we sell someday, I will stay with the company because I'm such a control freak. I have to be with my girls. So you now have your people, both your products and your actual people. So did the entire team from Amorous come over or did you lose some people? There were layoffs that happened in that, like, I think right when bankruptcy happened, I think we lost a couple people there.

30:58But that's the crazy part is that, like, most of our team stayed, and most of them are still with us. And they are, like, some ride-or-die, like, loyal, hard-working, creative people. Well, you guys have the best products in the industry for hair care. Like, I swear. That's why I was so upset when this whole thing was going down. Well, it really is different because, I mean, we are silicone-free and we use hemisqualine, which really is, like, a fundamentally different way of approaching hair care. Like, air dry cream. If you don't have a Hero product, it's really hard to, like, to boo yourself through anything.

31:26And so that, luckily for us, and not to, like, take credit, but, like. You're like, I came up with that. I did. Yeah. I did. The name, the formula. I mean, I worked with it on a chemist, but, I mean, that was, like. Which one is it? Let's hold it up. Okay. and to me and I've been doing hair since I was 18 years old this is the most universal beautiful product it literally works if you put this on detangled hair like 1A to 4C it will just make your texture come out and be so much better so our sales stayed strong it wasn't like they like you know cratered but some of the biggest and Teresa our president told me like from the very beginning she was like this year is gonna suck like transition years suck and they always are gonna suck and the numbers are gonna be shitty and the market meetings you're gonna wanna like run out of there sobbing and it's just gonna suck and I was in the first market meeting that we did after the transition I was like I literally said my exact words leaving that I was like that felt like a drive by shooting like literally were my exact words just red just nothing but red on those graphs and just all these corporate people in Sephora and I was like oh this feels bad but wow what a slog we really turned that we really turned it around we got so much better so much stronger So at the beginning, it was about like optimization, obviously.

32:42And I think that like people thought it was going to be an easier transition than it was. That created a lot of difficulty, like getting everything switched over on the back end. So that's like seamless on like a website. And then you like open up the hood and you're like, wait, how did they build this website? And then when, you know, your team can control that versus like how some other team built that, like, you know, three years ago in the height of fucking COVID. That was a bitch. So, you know, fixing all that and untangling all of that, getting the website functional, getting like the operations side squared away because that was like our team getting to take ownership for something that they did not have ownership for.

33:14So you're just like uncovering like disaster after disaster after disaster. So then I started filming Queer Eye season nine, like the end of March. and that was just like knock down drag out gut wrenching so much anxiety I can't even tell and actually I've never said this in front of Teresa before but I'll say it now there were like times in that transition where I was like I don't know if I want to do this anymore I don't even know if I can do this anymore like my soul has just been catwalked on by like stilettos like Valentino stilettos but with like little like razors on the end of those little diamond things and I just felt like I had just been like just and I also think like in an election year when you've been like an outspoken political person and you're a brand founder there was like so much tension there and then like topping off my 2024 like ending up in like a 220 million dollar like pro-Trump campaign I just really could not fucking catch a break in 2024 so that was a lot I mean I really feel like every kind of nightmare that I ever hoped wouldn't happen to me in my career.

34:25It kind of happened to me within the space of, I don't know, six months. So to come out the other side now, and when I found out that we were going to get the opportunity to expand into Ulta, massive. And I've never really talked about this either, but through some of that, I had advertisers leave my podcast, just taking so many hits to your reputation and to your humanity and having people question, are you a good person? Are you a bad person? Are you an idiot? or like, you know, there's just so much all in that time. And so coming out on the other side, when we started, like when advertisers started to come back and when we started to get better opportunities and when our sales did start to get better, when we did that really hard work of like fixing all of those systems and getting our operations better and sourcing our, being able to take control of our sourcing and how we advertise, how we do marketing, how we pay things for social, how we do photo shoots.

35:17I mean, we changed how we do everything outside of literally packaging and our formulas, which is really expensive. Yeah. We have not touched it. So I'm really proud of that. Honestly, not to sound like a wokey left girl, but I think it's because I'm queer. I mean, I had to do that my entire life. Like, contracting HIV, growing up in a really conservative community. Like, to this day, if someone says faggot, I'm like, yes? like I mean I was so mercilessly bullied like verbally physically like never felt safe where I was from and I think that's why as an adult like I just feel like there's a part of me that just and I've said this my whole career like I feel like I'm in a constant state of shock because I like it's just so much better like I feel like and even if I had never gotten queer I like just going to the salon and being in a salon in a city where I had like a community and like clients like I just I was like I felt like you know Ariel with legs like I just felt like I like I had made it you know so even if I had never done Queer Eye never done JVN Hair never had a podcast never you know sold four New York time best-selling novels well three best-selling novels one best-selling children's book not that anyone's counting but I would have been happy and fulfilled because I love doing hair so that's one thing I'm really lucky for that I did have that North Star that I've always loved.

36:38But I think that's why I've been able to pick myself up is like, I learned from a young age that like, you need to be able to like entertain yourself and you need to have something that like you are excited for or you won't be able to make it in life. Not even like successfully, like you will not survive. Yeah. If there's something that you are not passionate and excited to do. Or you have a mission. Like, I think that's what like, I always look for. And even like influencers or brands, it's like, do you have something that's going to pick you up off the floor and get you to that next place. You've also talked about the fact that you are a people pleaser.

37:11So how do you, on the one hand, have that trait? And then on the other hand, you're able just to like get through the shit of it when you're in it. I learned from a young age that you need to be able to entertain yourself and you need to have something that like you are excited for, or you won't be able to make it in life. Not even like successfully, like you will not survive. Yeah. If there's something that you are not passionate and excited to do. Or you have a mission. I think that's what I always look for. And even influencers or brands, it's like, do you have something that's going to pick you up off the floor and get you to that next place?

37:43You've also talked about the fact that you are a people pleaser. So how do you, on the one hand, have that trait? And then on the other hand, you're able just to get through the shit of it when you're in it. I don't know. Well, I mean, so much of my therapy has been like in finding my centered self, like in internal family systems, which is like in parts therapy, which is like what I do with my therapist a lot um it's about like cultivating your centered self which is really like all of us have a centered self and that's like that's like the one that's like really clear and compassionate and calm and courageous and centered um and so it's like working on like finding who that is and getting out of like my people pleaser part or the part that I have that's really polarized with my people pleaser part is my irritated part which has also historically gotten me into trouble so like getting both of them to like calm down enough so I can just be like calm and centered and like feel like I'm in my power has been like what so much of my therapeutic work has been.

38:35I feel like if I was you, I would just be waking up and be like, I'm literally just trying to make people beautiful and make people feel good. And I'm getting all of this criticism for that. Do you ever just wake up every day and just be like, why is this happening to me? Well, I think we're in the middle of like a pretty intense, like rightward cultural shift, which I think is why a lot of that's been happening. So some of that, like I don't really take super personally. Although, you know, Cheryl Porter, she's this like incredible voice coach. She's like a 22 million follower queen on TikTok.

39:06She's got like 12 million followers on her YouTube. She's just making her debut right now on Angelia on Broadway, but she's incredible. She said something to me that really, I've not stopped thinking about it. And I think she changed my life. And I think she also like kind of healed two years of trauma with like one sentence. I said something that wasn't even like all of the story about what we're talking about, But it was something about me feeling embarrassed or like shame about something that had happened publicly. And she was like, you have got to stop thinking about yourself like that. Like, it's not about what happened to me.

39:37It's about what can I do for people? Like, you have this huge platform. Like, what can you do for people? What do people want from you? Like, stop thinking about like, oh, this happened to me because I had this. And it's like, no, like being of service isn't just like going to volunteer or like going to like, you know, donate something in a soup kitchen. And like being a service is like, what do people need from you? And I was like, oh my God, I'm so passionate. I'm so creative. I'm all about exploring self-acceptance and like figuring out like how to get in like a better relationship with myself.

40:05That, I mean, my literal mission statement is to spread self-acceptance by modeling joy and curiosity. It's literally what my mission statement is. Love that. And it always comes back to that. So I was like, girl, like stop thinking about this criticism. Stop thinking about the failure. Stop thinking about like, oh my God, these things happened to me and start thinking about. and it really was like she took a fucking gong and like rang this like bell and it almost just I was like and it was so I think she Hoffman me already I think it happened like two weeks ago because it's really I've I like really responded like differently to like so many public not so many but a few public things that have happened since that recording where I'm like wow you just launched into 700 doors in Ulta which is like huge because what I read from your glossy article that I loved It goes back to your mission of like being a Midwestern, like that's where you were born is in the Midwest.

40:53And Sephora's don't reach that clientele as much as they reach like the New Yorkers, the LA. And so being an Ulta is such a huge accomplishment for you. You're met with controversy from people being like, he is a male biologically founded brand. Do people know that also like Olaplex is also like a male founded brand? Like they're like Andrew Rosen in the women's fashion, contemporary fashion category also is a male founded brand. So I guess for you to be met with that controversy when that should be a moment of celebration, like when do you draw the line of what you say and what you don't? Because there was a lot of like conversation on like, oh, this is like what society is normalized.

41:30And I was like, yeah, I can agree with you on that. Like we're normalizing thousands of children being starved to death in front of our eyes. We're normalizing people being blown away in our schools. We're normalizing literally women being forced into birth. 60 million women in this country don't have access to reproductive health care anymore. That's what we've normalized. We've normalized people getting shot and killed in broad daylight and then going to work an hour later like nothing happened. I think that's really not normal. I think that so many things in American culture have become so insanely normalized.

42:02But I think in a Christian way, as someone who, you know, was like born and raised in the church and was a little altar boy every Sunday of my life and went to a Christian sports camp for 12 years, for two weeks every summer where I won the En Fuego for Christ award, by the way. Jesus is not concerned about me in a dress as much as he is about like the rampant poverty and corruption. In a world where like we have really not that many reasons to see the best in each other and hope the best for each other, I keep thinking about being angry at conservatives or policies and thinking that like, okay, well, me being angry about that and using my platform to talk about how pissed off I am about that kind of feels like me.

42:43It feels like what I really want Chick-fil-A, you know, but I know that's bad for me. They don't even support our community, you know, but I really need to like make the food at home, but I don't want to make the food at home. I want to do the easy thing. I just like want to order it. It's easier for me to like be angry and like be mad at another side and demonize another person than it is for me to say to myself, maybe they were fed information. It's not true. Maybe they are in a culture of fear. Like maybe they just haven't met anyone. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like easier for us to be like distrustful and angry at someone than it is for us to like get into our compassion because it's harder to be compassionate when you have reason and lived experience to not be.

43:20Which if we were really talking about Jesus out here, that is what turning the other cheek means. It means like literally being burnt and turning the other cheek to be burnt again. But the point is, I think that's really what his message is about is turning the other cheek. You're meant to be compassionate with people. You're meant to like not judge people. So yeah, I just think growing up in such a conservative place, I'm like not at all surprised. I'm always disappointed, but I'm never surprised. Because I mean, my hometown voted for Trump like three to one. Like I'm very - Do your parents still live there?

43:51Yes. Well, no, my dad doesn't. My mom does. And you go back and visit? Not that much, no. I was going to say like, what does that bring up for you if you were like going back to the place that was just hard to grow up in? Yeah, I don't love it. We went for an episode of Queer Eye. it was really hard. I thought in the moment it felt really cathartic and then I found out after we left that there was like an uptick in like attacks on queer people after we left and that just made I wrote about it in my second book. You know like in that song I think it was by Cassandra that Taylor wrote she said when it's like when it's like burn the bitch they're screaming but when the truth comes out it's quiet.

44:29So it's like but that also goes for good news too. Like people will celebrate the good things but then And if there is like another thing after, it's like, doesn't want to look with that. Doesn't want to. Well, I feel like that's even true for your success too. Like people are happy for you to a certain point. And it's like, I realized too, that it's like heavy is the head that wears the crown. Like when you start achieving and you add to your list of like, you know, I am a standup comedian that has sold out tours and I have bestselling New York time books and I'm a beauty brand founder that has risen from the ashes.

44:59And I'm doing this again. And like, it's so hard to rationalize as a human where it's like, as soon as you keep going up and up, people are just waiting to tear you down. Yes. That is hard for me to rationalize with because I'm just like, we're so here for when things are going badly. And then when things are going well for people, we don't want to celebrate it if it's too much for us. Yes. Yeah, it's interesting, right? Yeah. Can we talk about Queer Eye for a second? Yes. Okay, I'm so interested in the transformation that changed you more than it probably changed the person. Ooh. Oh, my God. There's a few.

45:37Tammy always comes up for me. I think she was, like, season two, episode one. Also, interestingly, when Rolling Stone did come out, she was, like, one of the very first voicemails that, like, I had. She was like, we don't believe shit, honey. Like, keep your head up. Like, don't you let them, like, tear you down. I'm like, I know that's bullshit. She was like, she's just, anytime anything good or bad happens, she's like one of the very first people there. She's just such a love. When I did my last, I just did my first young adult fiction novel this year, and it was so fun to write. But I did the book tour in Atlanta, and she was in the front row.

46:09She's just so cute, Mama Tammy. She's such a good person. But she's a huge one. Angel always comes up for me, too. She was season six. What was the biggest part of their transformation? Well, I mean, Mama Tammy was, I really feel like she was more for us than we even were for her. I mean, what Bobby did to her community center was so sweet, and it's really cool how that center is still used in her community. I think it's really helped her community. But I feel like her love and attention after the show has been really so healing. I mean, she's like a confidant. Yeah. I love her. I follow her kids.

46:43I follow her. I love her. Angel, again, I think it's been more after, because seeing her come out of her not that she was like in a shell but I feel like when we did her episode of Queer Eye was like 2021 she was really early on in her transition she was like navigating living in Texas as a trans woman now she lives in Seattle she's so much more herself she's like in a community where she feels safe so I just and she's like in her 20s so just like seeing her like expand and grow and like become the woman that she is is like just really inspiring for me and also it kind of makes me realize like some of the ways that like I like unintentionally put her in a box like on her episode like I was like let's do like a blended red light like she wants bold ass red fucking panels all over her hair and it's not like I don't think she said that back then but it's just like seeing her evolve to the woman that she is now I'm like wow like how have there been ways where like I've been like doing what I think would look best without maybe investigating as much as what I thought even the person wanted like that like I feel like that's kind of a lesson she taught me is like dig deeper ask more questions I think Like, Jamie, also from, like, Queer Eye in Austin.

47:50She did, like, Safe in Austin. She has this, like, huge animal shelter. And she's one that, like, I feel like really changed me, still does change me. And watching her, she's, like, someone who, similarly, I think, has had a really hard time after the show and doesn't have as much support. And, like, I see her social not get the love and the support that it, like, once did. And I think that's been hard for her. And it's hard to, like. Watch it. Yeah. How do you feel with Queer Eye entering into its last season? Well, we wrapped it last month. month we finished. And then we just went to the Emmys like two weeks ago or like a week ago, which was for season nine.

48:23Did not expect to win. That was amazing. That was really fun. That was your second. Yeah, that was our second. It was the show's seventh. So not expecting for them to call our name at all. And then there's this thing at like award shows where like there's camera people there, you know? So you can kind of tell like if the camera's in your face, like you might win, but if the camera's nowhere close and like, and that's like a tell in 2024 four because like all the cameras were like by shark tank and i was like oh my god like we're not winning yeah we're so not winning this and so then when we were there this year the camera guy took like three gaping steps like past me and i was like oh shit but i was like that's fine i was like already in place of acceptance like i knew we weren't gonna win and then like the lights came on and she opened the envelope and she was like queer eye and then i felt this like whoosh of air and he was like in my face and i was like the only other time this is perfect for the fistula to come back The only other time in my life I made that shocked of a face is when I found the second butthole.

49:17Literally. My face, like, I forgot that I was in glam. Like, when they said queer, I was like, like, I palmed my face all the way. Like, I knocked off lashes. It was so, I cried. It was so fun. It was, it actually was, like, the most fun win of anything I've ever won. Because I totally did not think we were going to. And I'd already accepted not winning. Like, I was so just happy to be there. And then I was like, oh, my God, the gala is going to be way more fun now. And it was. so do you think that you'll do reality tv moving forward i hope so i think it needs to be like the right project and i also think like my mission statement i'm serious about that like i do i really want to spread self-acceptance by modeling joy and curiosity so it's like if it doesn't fall in line with that um i also have been like i'm working on a fiction project right now and i've been learning how to um i just i really like writing and i also with jv and hair like this morning i spent like three hours like shooting our air dry cream like jumbo stuff or like our jumbo content i did like three models hair i did my models hair tomorrow i have a whole salon day to make social content so i really get like my hairdresser and like artist like mine satiated um and doing our models and like prepping our models and doing all of our photo shoots and then when i'm not doing that i really am either like working on stand-up or working on writing something or my podcast which takes up like so much of my time as you understand so that's kind of like what i spent my time doing but i i would love to do unscripted i think the other thing about unscripted tv is like not in a good place right now like lizzo i just saw did this really good tiktok where she was like the age she's like i'm lizzo i'm a multi like platinum recording artist and this is why i tell you that like the golden age of like music videos is dead i was like i need to do a hook like that where it's like i'm on like one of the longest running netflix shows of all time and let me tell you why unscripted is like because if it's like no network is willing to take a risk on anything and you have to like have such insane numbers for them to bring you back a second time which is why us making it for 10 seasons is like unheard of yeah um can i tell you my thesis or my um hypothesis tell me is i actually think that brands are going to be funding a lot of the unscripted yeah but i'm like so are you familiar with that brand Built?

51:29Yes. So they did that like roomies, roomies, roomies series and then installed the like intern on social media. I feel like JVN Hair is going to do like an unscripted thing. Yes, I love that. Yeah, like I just feel like because realistically, the consumer at least of JVN Hair, like they want to see you using the products. Like how do I fix my hair like this? And how do I do this? And how do I do that? And like it's not just about that. And that's what I realized about my show was like, yes, we could be an everyday like founder podcast, right? where you just talk about the brand, but that is so not real life.

51:59Like your life is existing at the same time you're building a brand. And so I wanted to create a space where it's like you learn about the who the person is as they're building the brand as much as you're actually learning a tip or a trick. And I think that's so true with where content is going is like people want that longer form of the brands that they're obsessed with because you've created this world of JVN. What are the three words that you would describe JVN hair as actually? Ooh, expressive. Okay. Inclusive. And maybe it's like celibacy. No, expressive, inclusive. I think people like throw around like the word holistic.

52:38So that's what I mean when I say that it's kind of a fundamentally different way of approaching your hair. If I had to do packaging again, I was really in like my row phase and I still am in my row phase. Like the row. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I'll never like fall out of love with Mary-Kate and Ashley. Like they've just had me in like a stranglehold since I was like two. and like I think about that part and it takes two and she was like, chop in. Like I just love them so much I can't get over how much, you know that part, right? Yeah. So that's why all these are beige because I was just - From the row.

53:07Yeah. I was like, to me when I think of like expensive luxury, I think the row, I think beige, I need timeless, I need classic. I would make these like brighter and cuter now and if you notice like our line has evolved like brighter and cuter. Yeah. So if I had that to do over, I would totally do that again. I just was like, I was like, everything needs to be beige and timeless and then i realized that in sephora it ended up looking like a fucking locker room stall and because everything was beige and i was like oh but because we're just but we're sustainable girls around here so we're selling through all of that okay we're not just like taking our stuff and dumping it out which is what a lot of other brands do we're selling through our stuff because really i did not want a bunch of like shit at tj maxx or floating at the bottom of an ocean because like i was like oh that color could be cuter but it's the same formula and there's so much waste it's it's for a reason we're trying to like not be wasteful.

53:54It's crazy though because I, as a millennial, like I love beige and I feel like every brand actually tried to be like Gen Z and like these big bright colors because that's what we thought Gen Z wanted. Do you think they'll come back to beige? I do. I love beige. I still love it. I still love it more than anything. You know what I also love is pastel tie dye. Same. Same. So I'm like, do we just go like... A little. But then it's going to look like a Mika and I can't do that. I don't want to look like a kaleidoscope. I gotta say, if you went like it would be like it's not us but can i tell you that in like it was like i think it was 2023 and me and t were like uh you know it's such a hot color and we were like butter yellow and then we were like that because that's when we decided to do our dry champ and like our styling line like expanding into more of like a buttery yellow so like it's still like supple and like refined because if you notice when the row branches into color they'll do yellows and limes um so it's like Like, if The Row doesn't do it, then I don't want to do it.

54:51If they've never done it, then I'm like, I can't do that color. That's kind of like a barometer for me. Is your dream collaboration with JV and Hair The Row? It's not because I think I would die. And so for the help of, like, the brand and everything, I just, like, I don't want us to have, like, a dead founder. You know? So who is your dream collaboration with JV and Hair? Well, it would be so fun to do Mary-Kate and Ashley, but I really do think I would fucking die. Like, I think I would just, like, drop the fuck dead. but can I just say they would both be so good for air dry cream. Okay, so we're going to get them on.

55:23They really, what? Oh my God, I think Mark Townsend still does their hair and I used to assist for him when I was at Sally Hirschberger and he would come to LA because he really worked in New York. So I used to like wash his clients and say, so Mark, you remember me, I got you a good coffee. Okay, so if Mark ever can't do their hair, you're filling in for Mary-Kate and Ashley Wilson. I don't know, I really do think I'd die. They can just use my products. Okay, who is the person you fangirled over using JBN hair? Well, there's one really famous person who I can't say, but... So she was, like, really cool.

55:50I was like, oh, my God. Wait, which product does she use? She uses our nurture mask. Okay. Yes. Is there a celeb that you really want to use JVN hair that hasn't yet, other than the Olsen twins? I mean, I'm so down with anyone using, like, I'm kind of Dolly Parton in that sense. Like, I'm agnostic. The person who I've always wanted to use my products and, like, my biggest celebrity, like, dream, like, did. And she ruined me for this question. And so now it's, like, the inaugural part of every podcast. where I get to talk about Michelle Kwan, who is the most decorated American figure skater of all time.

56:20And actually, I literally tested instant recovery serum on her hair when I was formulating it. I blew her hair out with all of our products. And yeah, she was one of the first people that I did IRS on. It was in Philadelphia. I met her there to test it on her. She's been a huge supporter of our brand from the jump. And I love her so much. And I can't believe that she wanted to be my friend because she came on Queer Eye Season 3. So like, she really did kind of ruin me for like meeting your heroes because I met my hero. I know, but it's like no one ever can live up to that. Like she was, like for most people, if it was like your Beyonce or your Adele, it was always Michelle Kwan.

56:54I've only ever been talking about Michelle Kwan. When I wrote Over the Top my first book, my editor was like, girl, you have a problem. I think you referred to her like 222 times. Like it needs to, you got to bring it back down to earth like 10 times or something. Oh my God. So I think we compromised on like 80. She just really got to be my young queer trauma. Like she was like my beacon of light and hope and she never stopped. And now she's like my friend and she uses my product. So I just. Oh my God. This is the best to see this evolution for you. I know it's major. Oh my God. Okay. I can't have you on the show and not ask you about my transformation.

57:24I need to do looking at me. What is one thing that you think that I should evolve? Well, one thing I've been thinking this whole time is I love your cheek color. What is that blush? Oh, it's Kosas. Life is something. Can I tell you something else? Yeah. So Alex Kinsani said on TikTok that we're never putting anything on our temples because it snatches you back. So ever since then, I've been militant about not putting any blush. Wait, if you put blush here, it snatches you back? No, she said if you don't put anything there, it snatches you back. So she was like, I never put any makeup right here because it snatches.

57:58But now I feel like she's wrong because this blush that you have, because I feel like your blush placement, you put it up here. And now all I want to do is take blush and put it up here because I feel like this that you're giving me this whole time, I can't believe that I didn't stop the conversation to talk about that. until now. Because it was, in fact, you know those times I was like losing my train of thought? You're looking at the blush. This entire time. Wait, because I saw this Instagram video that was like. It's so pretty. Is it? Okay. But what's the way that can change? Okay, well, do you want to, okay, let's talk about your hair.

58:24Yeah. I can see that your natural color is lighter than your brown. Yeah. And I just always feel for people that go darker than their natural color because it's like really annoying to like, I almost feel like that's like a more annoying route than when you're, when it's dark and it's lighter down here, it's like more forgiving okay i feel like this is a line yeah and so i think one thing that you could do is i love you brunette i think you're so pretty like no notes i just like hate lines of demarcation and i hate having to deal with them because i think it's expensive and it's time consuming so what i've been doing with a lot of my clients is switching them from permanent color to semi-permanent color okay because it has a softer grow out and then that way as you wash your hair it like sloughs off over the next like 30 to 40 washes so it won't be totally your virgin color, but it's, you see your hair color start to come out.

59:10I like to compare it to the difference between like pantyhose and tights. Okay. Permanent is tights. Okay. Semi-permanent is pantyhose. Okay. So that I would talk to your colorist about evolving to a semi-permanent base instead of a permanent base. Okay. One other question. Do you see these hairs right here? Yes. How they separate. Should I laser this so it's not discharging? For someone who is living on borrowed time for my hairline, because everyone in my family is, like, bald, and I don't know how, I still have hair at 38. I could never advocate for someone lasering hair off their head. It just feels— But look at this, like— Can we transplant it?

59:47Can I come with you? Like, what is this? Can we transplant it into my hairline? Nice hair. But what? But it's, like, detached. I love that. Spray some dry shampoo on it. Oh, really? Spray some dry shampoo on it right now. Right now? Okay. Yeah, with love. Okay. I didn't mean to be so bossy. I think that might, like, join your friends with your other friends. So do I lift up my hair and do this? Do I have to press it down? Yeah, you got it. Oh, my God. I always feel like Blake Lively when she was on her press tour when I do this to people. Okay. I'm like... Oh, my God. JVN just did my hair. I think I met my celebrity crush in real life.

1:00:15God, I'm so honored. Okay, wait. What do we think? I just... You have great hair. Thank you. But the hairline is a problem. It's not a problem. You know, I almost wonder if this is a bit... It's a mystery. Well, I think that it might want to live on the other side. And so I need to change my part. Yeah, but you can only do that when it's, like, wet. Okay. You know, when it's, like, dry, it doesn't want to do that. Okay. But that did fluff it up and blend it in. Okay. So, I mean, I feel like... I am sweating through my shirt so bad. You, the start off of this interview had me so fucking nervous.

1:00:44So do you feel, like, a little, like, was it cathartic to talk to the person that made that video a little bit? It was more fun. Okay. Yeah. And I do really want you to know that, like, it came from a place of not trying to tear it down, but being, like, I am... Can I take the only part that really hurt my feelings? that I really didn't like. Yeah. It's talking about my team, girl. Because my endorsement team, I've known those kids. I was meant for the business manager. Like, the person who, like, really, like. But next time you do a video like that, be more specific. Okay. Okay. Because they're such a big team.

1:01:14And then they're like, oh, my God. And then they're like, oh, my God, do we fuck it up? And, like, are you mad? Because, like, that video went far and wide. So my team, you had them shaking in their boots. And they got mouths to feed. And can I say, like, the thing about me is. That you're Canadian and you guys just really are direct. But you're really nice. And also, like, I'm sorry. No. Like, if it, like, hurt you. Do not apologize. Anything would have hurt me. Looking at me at the wrong way would have hurt me in that time. I was very sensitive. I know, but I just want you to know from a place of, like, I made it because I am such a fan of what you've built.

1:01:44And I was, like, so confused and sad. Yeah, like, if you rewatch it, which I did a bunch leading up into this interview, I don't feel like I came at it from a place of, like, oh, my God, this is so embarrassing. It was, like, what happened? Like, this is crazy. and I really just feel like what you've done with this brand and like everything that you've gone through is probably the most impressive turnaround like I have ever seen I think you are going to be so incredibly successful I actually need you to message me if you're ever raising money like I would love to invest um and yeah like if you guys raise money like please like I please call me and I'm just so impressed I'm so grateful you came on and I could tell when you made that video that there was like care and love in there and like I really could and you were so complimentary in it and like like and I just was it's embarrassing like it's not having a well no sometimes having a flop is embarrassing but that's I think what I love about people like you who like climb so high and the higher that you climb it's so much harder to put yourself out there because you do risk failing and I'm nowhere near you now but like the podcast today that we're recording is the number 33 in the world and so like I get afraid to try new things or like have longer episodes or like Like, do different things because I'm like, oh, we have a formula.

1:03:00It's working. But that's actually what will kill businesses is when you stop experimenting and you stop trying. Yes. So I feel like everyone just needs a little JVN in their life. So what day is your podcast out that people should be listening to? We do Wednesdays is getting better. Okay. And that's where we're just getting better at doing things. Okay. It could be getting better at, like, work-life balance or money or, like, understanding a topic that I'm confused by. Like, I'm doing one on, like, understanding belonging better and, like, being better at handling rejection. Okay. So there's, like, two that I'm excited for.

1:03:28I just did one on singing better. And then Mondays are our Monday edit, where that's me and our senior producer. And we're talking about, like, the BTS of the pod, the news. We do our Hot Bitch of the Week. Love it. My Hot Bitch of the Week right now, or last week, was, like, the shadow side of the street. Because, like, it's just so much cooler. Okay, love that. Yes, you know. So it's never really a person. It's usually, like, a thing. Okay. And then it's, like, the Jonathan Van News desk. It's, like, the things that we're following is fun. So I love the Monday edit. We got a little joy there.

1:03:55Okay. If you've followed my career for a long time, my first, like, foray on camera was this thing called Gay of Thrones on Funny or Die. Yeah, I remember that. So I feel like the Monday edit is giving, like, my Gay of Thrones energy. So it's a little more light, a little bit more fun. It used to be more beauty-based on Mondays. We did Pretty Curious. Okay. And then the audience was like, girl, we don't want to hear about that anymore. Okay. The audience is always right. Yes. So now we kind of evolved it. And so that's Mondays and Wednesdays, and I have so much fun doing it. Okay, can I ask you a few rapid-fires?

1:04:19Yes. Before we leave. I'm, like, literally obsessed with you. It's a problem. Don't give me your phone number because I'm going to text you all the time. No, please. I want to give it to you. I have to smash the follow button. I want to be friends. Yeah, me too. Okay. You can only pick one for the rest of your life. Okay? HIV medicine. Reality TV or stand-up comedy? Stand-up comedy. Okay. Ooh, you're dancing coffee every day? Yeah. Or solid core? Solid core. Do you still do your dancing coffee, though? I do. Okay. Ooh, you can only have one. You have to sell the rest. Kelly's or Birkins? Sell the Kelly's.

1:04:52even though they don't resell as well. Okay. But I like Birkins better. Okay. Dry shampoo or fresh blowout? If I'm doing it for myself, dry shampoo, because like if I just blew that thing out, like I don't want to have to do it again. So for myself, dry shampoo. But if it's like me refreshing my own blow dry or like going to get a fresh blow dry, then I would like much rather have a fresh blow dry. Okay. Heels or flats? Flats. Oh, really? I feel like you look so good in heels. Me and my stylist are really at a throw right now because she keeps trying to put me in stilettos all the time. And I'm like, I'm almost 40.

1:05:21and I can feel my bunions like fucking beating in my third eye if it's not a platformer or a wedge I can't handle it. So JVN on this podcast reveals he has two buttholes and three eyes. Yes. Okay. What is the most overrated hair trend right now? I have like a I have even when they were like big the first time in 2000 and like 6 to 11 I like fucking hate tinsel strand. Wait I don't know what that is. I've seen these fucking tinsel strands in everybody's fucking hair again. Okay so that's a no. Yeah like what next the fucking feathers? Okay oh my god I did that at a music festival and it was just like, no.

1:05:52Like recently? No, this was like 2012, 2011. Honey, it's coming back. It's back. No, like Burning Man needs to stay in Burning Man. Girl, I don't like these accoutrement in the hair. Who is one celebrity hair that you would love to fix? Okay, I don't want to get canceled. You won't. But, and it's not, like, it's sheer, sheer curiosity. because I am really good at like understanding how hair moves. Like as a hairdresser in hair school, we're taught like to break down an updo. Like where is this hair coming from? Like how would you have formed this? Like you have to like guess based off of a picture what's happening.

1:06:30I cannot figure out what's going on with Donald Trump's hair. Like I don't know where anything is coming from. I don't know where it starts. I don't know where it stops. I don't want to do it. I don't want to fix it. I don't want to be in the same fucking room with him. Like and there's not enough in body conditioner or shampoo and like that Blake Lively volumizing Blake Brown foam. There's not enough. There's not enough. It's not, I don't want to do it. But I am like a little curious, like from afar, if I could be like a fly on the wall to see his hairdresser do that. Because like, where is it starting?

1:07:01Where is it stopping? Like what in the flat wrap is going on here? I don't understand what the fuck is going on with that fucking hair. Who's someone whose hair like I wanted you? I don't know. I just feel like celebrities have like such good hair. Like, I don't have notes for most of them. Like, most of them have, like, really good hair. Huh. You know who was so sweet that I got to do a scene with once? Helen Mirren. And she does not. Wait, I don't know who that is. Wow. Wait, like, give me a hint. Helen Mirren. She's, like, iconic. She was, like, in, like, what has Helen Mirren not been in? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:07:34Yes, Helen Mirren. I got to do a scene with her in, like, Sarah Cooper's, like, Netflix special where Sarah Cooper is, like, that comedian who, like, lip-syncs Donald Trump. And then she did this special on Netflix. and I had to play the reporter who Trump and Billy Bush are talking about. And Helen Mirren was Billy Bush. Okay. Or Bobby Bush or whatever the fuck his name was. And then Sarah Cooper was Donald Trump. And so I had to like do a scene with Helen Mirren, which was like I still can't believe like in hindsight that I like was on camera with Helen fucking Mirren. And she has gray hair.

1:08:03She doesn't need anything done with her hair. She's just so cool. I think about this like, I think it was like Paris Fashion Week. I can't remember who she was walking for. It could have been Vivian Westwood. But she was walking the show and she lifts up her dress and she's barefoot and she just starts like running like down the runway. Oh, that's so cool. It gives me the chills thinking about it. So much so that I'm like, is my fish still coming back? Do I have COVID? Like, I don't really either of those things. I'm just saying the thought of her doing this run was like, she's just a bad bitch.

1:08:27Like Helen Mirren is so cool. Okay, so you want to do her hair. Yeah. Okay, manifesting that for you. Last one, do you mute or unfollow people? I unfollow. I like that. If you're dead to me and you've absolutely like unfixable damage, I unfollow. Okay. Except for this one girl who I was drunk that was one of my really good friends who I just unfollowed because she hurt my feelings. So if you're watching this, Monique, that's why I unfollowed you. But it's not because you're dead to me. Will you follow her back if she apologizes? Do you hold grudges? Um, yeah, I'm working on it. Oh, what's your birthday?

1:09:00March 28th, I'm an Aries. Oh, but I feel like they're not grudge holders. Although this identity expert on the Today Show said that we shouldn't tell people our birthdays anymore. But I feel like mine's so publicized, like, Like, what do I care? Wait, also, I just read something. I think it was in the New York Times that actually, like, our horoscopes are very off from when, like, I need to find this article for you and send it to you. I don't want to butcher it. But basically, like, the stars shifted so much that, like, when you actually search your birthday, it's an interactive article in the New York Times.

1:09:27I actually have, like, identified as a Gemini my whole life. Apparently, based on what the stars were when I was born, I'm actually a Taurus. Are you trans-Zodiac? Well, I think that everybody is. Oh, my God. We're all like trans zodiac. Oh my God. JVN, I think you were probably in my favorite interview. I'm dead serious about wanting to invest in your brand if you ever raise money. I'm so impressed with you. I'm so grateful you came on and shared your story. And thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. And I'm so excited for your success and come on at like top podcast queen. Thank you. Yes, I'd love to have you on mine sometime.

1:09:57I was like, where can people find you? I'm the most active on Instagram and TikTok. I'm at JVN on Instagram and I'm at JVN underscore official on TikTok because someone got my fucking name on TikTok. Wait, who has it? I don't know. Some boy whose name is JVN. But he seems really nice and he's like young. And so that's nice for him. Have you ever asked, can I buy your name? No. Okay. I don't want to. Okay. I'm just going to have my little JVN official. Okay, well, we can find you on JVN and JVN official. And thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Mwah.