Shameless’s Emma Kenney on Hollywood Fame, Pay Gaps & Finding Purpose as a Non-Profit Entrepreneur

0:03In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it.

0:14Emma Kenny, are you ready to get hot smart rich? Very much. I am so excited that you're here. I was probably the most excited, not anxious at all for your episode. Can I tell you why? Please. So we're kind of related in this like marriage ish way. And it's an intimidating family to be a part of. you were the first person that I felt like really safe around. We met at Disneyland and I felt like you were kind of keeping me under your wing because it was like the first time I was around ever. Was that intentional or that's just who you are? Oh my god you know I always like to talk to people get to know people.

0:50I was so excited to meet you that day at Disneyland and it was so much fun. I feel like I'm a very warm person and I was excited to see somebody you know around my age and another girl doing fun stuff. Exactly. I've always been really fascinated, especially just because you make up a persona of someone when they're on TV for so long. And obviously you played a character that, yes, maybe she had warm characteristics, but also lived like a very dark life. Do you feel like that's a big misconception that people have about you, that you might be more like Debbie, who they saw you play when you are a very warm, inviting person?

1:25Oh, 100%. I mean, every single day I'll be getting comments that they hated my character. And, you know, a lot of people will say that they understood her. But for the majority, I do get a decent amount of hate on social about a character that was ultimately written. And we did 11 seasons on Shameless. So people naturally grow in that kind of a time. And I just want people to know that was a character. I'm a completely different person than that. It's actually crazy because you sprained your ankle about 20 minutes ago. was there ever a part of you that was like I can't do this or you're just the type of person that's like I committed to something I'm going very much so I'm a woman of my word I pride myself on being punctual respectful of people's time my commitment so yes I definitely fell down the stairs and rolled my ankle hence the ice pack as we know but I didn't fuck up my vocal cords can I curse on here oh yeah you can curse for sure this is such a place for you to feel safe to be yourself because when you play someone on TV for so long, you do become very misunderstood.

2:28How confusing was it for you who was nine years old when you first got cast, growing up trying to discover who you were as a person as you were playing a very specific character with a very specific frame of mind? I think that when I started doing Shameless, I was so young. I was only nine years old. I think a lot of it was just kind of playing pretend. I had so much fun behind the scenes with the cast. we had truly such like a familial dynamic we were constantly blowing pranks on each other and joking around so I think a lot of it was just having fun and I think as I got older I started to I don't want to say take it more seriously because I was always aware that this was a job I had to show up have my lines memorized but for the majority I would say I grew with the character in that sense too and realized you know this is not all fun and games everybody here is working At nine years old, did you want to work or you just wanted to act and be creative?

3:23I think I lucked out that I got the opportunity to work while being creative at nine years old, which is obviously not a very common dynamic for most people. And I still look back on that feeling so fortunate to have had that opportunity. But I enjoyed the work aspect. I enjoyed having a call time, having sides to memorize every single night, working with the director, the cast and learning. That's always been something I really enjoy learning from the people around me. Like you said, you spend 11 seasons on the show. So your identity at some point should have been wrapped up a little bit in your character.

3:56What does it feel like for you when that all of a sudden just ends out of your control? It's interesting. I actually had a conversation with another actress who grew up on TV as well about a week ago about this exact topic. And you do almost put a lot of your job's identity into who you are. It's a question most people ask you about. What are you filming? How set? What's the next project you're working on? Especially as an actor, which is a freelance industry. So there's a lot of pressure with that. And this is the first year. I have not been on a set in a year as of this month, actually. It's the longest I've ever gone without working since I'm nine.

4:33I'm 26. So it's been, you know, a little bit of an adjustment. I still do get those questions. What are you working on right now? And I'm trying to adjust to that normality. it's been a tough year in the industry. I do look forward to getting back on set. At the moment, I don't know what that set will be. You almost do go through a little bit of a, I don't want to say a midlife crisis. I'm 26, but a somewhat emotional adjustment and reevaluation, if you will. Do people come up to you on the street and literally call you Debbie? A hundred percent. Does that feel weird? You know, it depends on the person.

5:07If I, I don't expect everybody to say, Hey, Emma Kenny. I don't expect that. I'm grateful for the people that have supported the show, but you do have to be aware enough to realize the character and the actor are two separate people. Do you enjoy being recognized? Like, is that an experience that you like when people come up to you? Absolutely, especially when there's a heartfelt connection to it. A lot of people will say they saw their family in the Gallaghers. And I really do enjoy those kinds of connections when you really get to feel the work going somewhere and somebody being able to connect to it.

5:40Was there a part of Debbie that you did not connect with at all? I mean, she definitely made some questionable decisions. We were called shameless, certainly for a reason. So of course there was some decisions I probably would have advised her against if I was her friend. I also think that's the beauty of acting. You do get to do things, feel things that you wouldn't necessarily feel. Is this why we see a lot of females go from acting and then becoming a director or in the writer's room? Like they want to have more control over the storyline or why do we feel like that's a progression that a lot of females, specifically actors, have to take because it doesn't come when they first start their career?

6:17Honestly, that's a really interesting point and a good perspective. I would say so. I'd also say that being an actor, you have such little say over everything, which for me, I'm a control freak. I have my planner book. I'm a go-getter at the end of the day. So that is a bit of a tough pill to swallow, especially with the way the industry is right now. I have a lot of friends that are thinking of writing scripts, optioning books, optioning articles to take things into their own hands. And that's actually inspired me a lot recently. I've been reading a couple books that I'm looking into developing the rights to because I want to take things into my own hands.

6:51I want to be on set and get creative again. there are a lot of female actors who have recently opened up about the lack of equal pay to their male co-leads did you ever experience that on set i started the show shameless when i was nine so there was certainly a pay gap at age nine compared to bill macy who was such a veteran and still is an icon so there was definitely a pay gap and we would get increases i do have one specific memory of negotiations one season, my lawyer gave me a call. I want to say I was maybe 14 or 15. And I've been in every episode of Shameless. I certainly paid my dues on that set.

7:31My lawyer called me and he told me that somebody on their business side ultimately said that, why does a 14, 15-year-old need all of this money? This is the offer. And while a part of me understands that, why does a 14, 15 year old need that money? You also have to keep in mind that 14, 15 year old, that money is going into the Cougan account. I'm not able to touch that money until I'm 18. I've given up half of my childhood, six months of the year filming, the other half being able to be a kid, go to real school. That money is all going into a bank for my adult years. And it's not like I'm sitting around not doing the work.

8:09So that conversation did stick with me. absolutely did that affect the relationship that you had with more veteran actors on the set no because it wasn't their fault that whole cast truly worked so hard everybody paid their dues on that set we certainly put in the 10 ,000 I can I can guarantee that and I know I did too and no it never affected my dynamic with them when you're working in an office it's very taboo to ask somebody that works with you like what are you getting paid okay was there transparency transparency around the set of like, this person's making acts and I'm making acts. So like, you were able to compare to the other people on set or you guys had no idea?

8:48We were aware. We never really talked about it, but we were aware through negotiations. Some of our lawyers would talk and kind of exchange quotes. And I would go in a buddy system ultimately with Ethan who played Carl. My brother, we're the same age on the show. So we were ultimately in a buddy system. So him and I were getting paid the same throughout, I want to say. Perhaps not in the beginning because he had some more credits before me when we were nine. When you started understanding what the concept of money was, you're 14 or 15, you remember this conversation vividly, you know that there's money going into a bank account.

9:23What was your concept of money at that time? I grew up a child actor. A lot of child actors don't fully have the full competence to understand that and understand the smart financial decisions. I have completely taken a turn in the past few years and I'm very much so involved in my finances now. I talk to my business manager probably once a week just to check in, make sure everything is kosher. But at that age, of course not. And I was never, I've never been somebody who wants to go out and take a huge shopping spree. Sure, I probably went through a couple of phases like that when I was in my, you know, teenage years.

10:00This sounds kind of fake and corny, but I'm honestly grateful to have a home I love. My basic needs are covered and I'm very grateful for that. Do you remember what's the first thing that you spent money on when you turned 18 and got the lump sum of all of your hard work? The first thing I bought when I was 18, when I got my cooking was a house. But the first thing I ever bought with some money, because you can get a little bit of the money. Okay. How does that work? I want to say it's like a 80 % goes in the Coogan. Okay. 20, you get to perhaps spend. The first thing I bought, I was 11. I bought this Louis Vuitton bag.

10:35It was so ugly. You know, so ugly. I think somebody stole it or it got lost. I don't know. Never saw it again. I had it for probably a year and I'd wear it around. There's like these paparazzi photos when I was like 11 at the airport landing in LA with that bag. It's way too big for me. It's kind of cute. When you are this young, your parents obviously have a lot of control over your life. What was the dynamic of your parents and you at that time as you're starting to likely make a lot more money than them? I am very fortunate. We're East Coasters. My dad grew up in New York his whole life. My mom as well.

11:11When I was nine and I booked Chameless, my dad, he has a sweet journey too. He was the paper boy at the New York Post, worked his way up to sports editor-in-chief. So he did the back page, a headline for the sports section as I was growing up. And when I booked Shameless, he decided to take a leave of absence, come out to L.A. with me, figure out if the show is going to go on. So he gave me that opportunity to get to work. And I'm very grateful for that as an adult, too. I'm forever grateful to him for giving me that opportunity and treating me like an adult. And I don't mean that in a bad way.

11:43They gave me the freedom to pursue my dreams, as corny as that might sound. Did you ever feel guilty? Like your dad's not working, not making money. He's coming out to help support your dreams. Like, did you ever feel like there was that weird balance of I owe him or need to pay him back because he's taking time off from his job? Or were you not even having those types of conversations with him? You know, we weren't having those kinds of conversations. My dad is one of my favorite people. He honestly is so inspiring to even his story about starting as a paper boy as a kid for the New York Post, working his way up every step of the totem pole to get to where he was, is something I really look up to and admire.

12:20He never ever made me feel guilty. But the way I ended up in my brain paying it forward was I bought him a house a few years back. So it's something I am very happy to have gotten the opportunity to do. Yeah, you must be so proud. I am. Looking back, was there ever a part of you that wishes you had quote unquote a normal childhood, whatever that means? I'm fortunate that I got to experience half of a normal childhood because the day I would wrap the season of Shameless, I would fly back east, go to New Jersey, and literally, if it was a Monday or a Tuesday, be in real school the next day. And it was weird.

12:57It wasn't normal. A lot of kids would call me out for it. Were you bullied for it or you were celebrated because you were on TV? It was a little bit of both, of course. And it was obviously strange to be getting that kind of attention. I don't love attention. I've always been a little bit more shy on that side. So I feel like that's a big misconception of actors. Like a lot of actors actually don't like the attention and they just don't actually like the fame. Is that true for you? I like the positive side of the attention when people connect with you. And of course, you know, it's nice to be complimented.

13:29Who doesn't like that? What's the craziest fan interaction you've ever had? Oh, God. I mean, probably in a large setting. I remember being like 16, being at that Lollapalooza music festival in Chicago. and I was there with a couple of the cast members and I've never experienced something like that. We were truly getting swarmed and the show took place in Chicago. So there's obviously a huge fan base there, but we had security that had to come and kind of help hundreds of people. It was very scary and we were young. It's strange too, because I think I've had a decent amount of uncomfortable fan encounters in public where maybe I'm at a restaurant and they're drunk and they come up to the table or maybe they grab me physically and hey, and it's jolting.

14:09You don't want to be touched by a random man. I don't like that by any means. Especially because that with Debbie, part of her character that was very woven into the storyline was those types of experiences. With the other characters that you've played, do you feel like you have a different fan interaction with them because they aren't maybe as dark of a person? Honestly, I'll say it. 99 % of my fan encounters are for Shameless. Still. Literally. I think I haven't been recognized a ton of times for the Conners, which ultimately got more views, which is interesting. Why do you think Shameless connected with people so deeply?

14:45I think Netflix really gave it a ton of exposure. And also being able to binge a show that's 11 seasons, I think gives you a lot of opportunity to relax. So we all want a show that we can watch. And it's not just a quick hour. We get to really grow with the characters. Have you and Conrad watched every single episode together from start to finish? Oh, hell no. Oh my gosh. He actually, before we met, would watch Shameless. And then when he met me, he stopped watching the show. Why? He basically was like, I don't want to see you kissing. Which I think is really cute. You guys are so cute together.

15:20You smile so big when you talk about him. Do you watch the show by yourself? No, I don't. I've never like consistently watched. I've seen the pilot. You've never watched all 11 seasons. No, and I don't think I would. you know it's interesting because it is like a scrapbook to my life in a way so it's cute to see clips on tiktok i will see those a lot and we're talking about it now and our phones listen so you'll probably be seeing some too well to do all the research like there is all these fan compilation videos of you at nine going to you at 20 and it is actually really shocking to see your character develop because you grow up like you would a real woman because you are growing up as a real woman.

16:02It's a little bit of a mind fuck. Yeah, it is. You know, what's weird is I don't think I've ever seen a home video of Emma, but I've seen a home video of Debbie or I've seen a home video of Emma talking about Debbie in an interview. But I don't think my parents were super big videographers, if you will, cinematographers. So I have baby pictures, but I don't have any baby videos. Wait, that is so crazy to think about. Subscriptions aren't just about repeat orders. They're about building real lasting relationships. And that's where Recharge comes in. They're the subscription platform powering the brands you know and love.

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17:26to claim this incredible offer of 90 days free. Click the link in the show notes. So it finished when you were 20, right? 21. I just turned 21. So it's been gone for five years. Yeah. Do you get annoyed talking about Shameless so much? It was such a fun experience of my life. I really don't. I I'm so grateful for it, too. I mean, John Wells, he's our executive producer of that show. I guess he was truly changed my life. I mean, I'm so grateful that he gave me that shot. He was in New York. He saw me at the callback. I'll never forget it, too. He was so sweet. He complimented my Converse. I had these white Converse with little green stars on them.

18:04And he was like, cool kicks. And I remember leaving the callback. And my mom's like, how'd it go? And I go, he complimented my Converse. Oh, my God. When's your birthday? September 14th. So what's your sign? Virgo. What are you? I'm a Gemini. Oh, we're both ruled by Mercury. Yeah, exactly. I love how you know all this shit. That's why you love LA. I do. I love astrology, too. What's Conrad? He's a Pisces. So do you guys compliment each other? Very much so. We're opposites. I love you. What's Courtney? He's a cancer. Okay, cool. But you know what works is that he's an alpha cancer. So like, I don't think I could date a non-alpha cancer because they balance each other so well.

18:41Like his sensitive emotional side is really brought down with like his very alpha, tenacious go-getter. So we call him a tenderhearted warrior. And that works for me. I could never have someone who's like as driven and ambitious as he is without that sensitivity or emotion layer, but I think it works for us. But on the scale of horoscopes, like we're actually not compatible. Really? Cancers and Geminis aren't known to be compatible, but then the people I was the most compatible with, it never worked out. Interesting. I would say then the rest of your birth charts are probably very aligned. Yeah.

19:10What are your dog's names? Prince, Onyx, Charlie, Moda, and then the cat is Kitty. And then what about the fish? The fish, a few of them have names. We have a beta fish named July. We have three albino white frogs that are named after the three stooges, Lou, Larry, and Moe, something like that. And then we have two dojo loaches, which look like eels, named Unagi and Unago, if you're a sushi lover, you know. And then we have Gilbert. And gosh, Conrad's going to watch this and be so upset I don't have the fishes. Will Conrad watch this? He probably will, yeah. So he's your biggest supporter. He won't watch Shameless, but he'll watch other things that you do.

19:50He would probably watch it maybe now. I know that he initially was like, no, like once he started dating on the show, I'm good. I don't want to see you kissing someone else. Have you had to kiss someone while you've been in a relationship? No. Him and I, we, I've known him a really long time, but we started dating right when Shameless wrapped. So there was nothing. And then the Connors is very much PG. PG, wholesome family content. So there was nothing there. Oh my God. I always thought about that where it's like, that must be the most confusing, like just what it's your job I think is what like you have to remember this is your job oh yeah for sure it was you know what was actually really confusing too was there was a period of time where shameless and the Connors both shot at Warner Brothers at the same time usually they were the hiatuses allowed me to do one at one time one at the other both were at Warner Brothers and I would literally film two shows in one day take a golf cart from one stage at Warner to the next change my costume quick hair and makeup change go back and forth that was cool I look back I was like wow that was fun I wish I could do that again how does it feel to go from that level of busyness to like technically being unemployed all right technically literally unemployed at the moment it god it feels weird I'm not gonna lie I miss being on set I try to find purpose in other ways the dog rescue gives me the utmost purpose and it's very quick-paced I mean lives are literally on the line.

21:15But I miss it. I'm excited to be on set again. I really, truly can't wait for the day. I know you were like, I don't really do that many podcasts. And I don't know why you'd want me on. But is that exciting for you to build your brand as Emma Kenney and get opportunities like this to share your story? 100 % because a lot of it kind of gets clouded behind characters and maybe your interviews solely about the character or the season at hand or the project. I mean, who doesn't like to talk about themselves? Come on. What level of influence does the money that you're going to get paid have on what role you take now?

21:48My next job I want to do is something creatively fulfilling. Not everything has a big budget and I'm okay with that. I do love the longevity of being on a television show, the comfortability that comes with that, of course, financially. But I'm also just really looking forward to being able to dive into a new character, perhaps shooting on location would be fun. I've been fortunate. Everybody's always said, you're so lucky. You always film in LA. And growing up, I thought, oh, I would love to travel, go to Canada. A lot of projects film there. But now as an adult, you know, I do, I would love to be local filming here in LA.

22:24But of course, for a fun movie, I'd be excited to maybe New York, London would be a dream. Those are some big budget projects shooting in London. But it doesn't sound like money is like something that truly influences you, which I feel like is so true even in the way that you've lived your life off screen. You've chosen to start a charity versus a brand. When did that decision come to be? The decision of starting a dog rescue truly was in my bones since I can remember as a little girl. When I was young, I grew up doing ballet and my best friend Liana and I would do, I don't know why we came up with this idea cartwheels for charity outside of our ballet class growing up where people it's kind of weird as these people would be giving us money but we had a little sign and the money we'd be raising for different animal rescues back east and then my other childhood best friend and I had a whole vision of creating an animal rescue that we had a whole name for called the OADC which stood for our animals deserve care we raised money lemonade stands we would throw these haunted houses in our backyards growing up, all of these different things.

23:31And then by the time we turned 18, she had the piggy bank with the money. She goes, Hey, Emma, we raised about$400 all these years. Can't start a dog rescue with that. What should we do with it? So we donated it to the ASPCA. And so I just think that kind of shows a lot about my journey. Starting a dog rescue was literally my dream since I can remember. Do you identify as an entrepreneur? I would say I do and especially now as I've gotten older I've started to understand things differently I'm a very frugal person I like to make smart decisions and ultimately I am not working right now so I am aware of what I have in the bank account not it's not coming in right now it's going out if there's something I have my eyes on perhaps I'll buy it perhaps I'm gonna wait for the next time a check is coming in I feel like that also really makes decisions for you on like when you do an influencer deal or a brand deal, right?

24:24And I think it's been really interesting to watch every single celebrity embrace social media. What influences your decision of when you're gonna take a brand deal or not based on your values? Yeah, absolutely. I have been dipping my toe into kind of the brand deal space as of recently. And if it's a brand that feels authentic, if it's a brand I truly use and like, I'm happy to do it. It takes an hour of my time. And it is a little bit of a creative outlet. yeah I like social media too I go through phases where I'm very active on it and then I sometimes will get anxiety about posting but not consuming yes I'm constantly consuming social media talk is my uh my my news channel if you will but yeah Instagram for some reason I almost feel like more self-conscious of what I post on Instagram rather than TikTok although it's ironic because I have more followers on TikTok than Instagram I'm the exact same way right like it just feels like a free safe space the girlies on tiktok they understand that's all that matters like i'll cry on tiktok and like think nothing of it but you won't even catch me without makeup on instagram it's such a crazy dichotomy why is that well i was actually gonna ask you like were you intentional when you were growing up like this is the personal brand of emma kenny and like anything that goes outside of that line is something you don't share on instagram not at all i went through so many different phases.

25:46I mean, internally and externally with what I would post on social media. I've definitely archived a decent amount of photos. Like what's something you've archived? Oh my gosh. I would just do weird captions when I was 16. I would wear like tie dye and do really strange captions and overuse the word vibes. So I've probably archived a decent amount of those. I could probably do another check. I guess that comes with growing up. It's just not everybody's growing up is in front of a large amount of viewers. What do you think people want you to post on social media? God, I mean, they probably want me to post some weird stuff and I will not be posting that.

26:28I think they like to see a lot of my personal life. Yeah. Pictures with my boyfriend. They really like pictures with friends. They, you know, a lot of my audience, I have to admit, is shameless fans, which does that feel like a lot of pressure? It is pressure, but not in the way of trying to impress them. I think it's pressure in the sense of I really want to prove more to myself that I'm not just always going to be known for this one character that I booked when I was nine. It almost feels a little bit imposter syndrome-y because I booked that when I was nine years old. It's not something that I've accomplished in recent years.