The Queer Eye Star Behind "The Biggest Celebrity Brand Failure of All Time!" Jonathan Van Ness

25:11I'm smiling because you sound like such an experienced CEO. It's so amazing. I listened to your episode with Tori Dunlap, which I loved. You did too with her. She was on yours. You were on hers recently. She makes me feel really safe. Yeah. I feel like I talk way more with her than I do normally. Okay. Well, I loved all of the episodes and I think like your vulnerability and ability to like really help people who feel the same way. Like money is not something that they can control or they just like don't understand it. And I think a lot of the time money is such a mindset. It's like how you think about it is actually going to dictate what your financial future looks like.

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26:31This is why we partner with Recharge and why they're giving the HSR community 90 days free, helping brands test, learn, and grow their subscription business with zero risk. To claim this incredible offer of 90 days free, click the link in the show notes. One of the things that I actually was so fascinated about, and I really wanted to ask you because you talk on her podcast about how this experience kind of changed your catalyst for personal finance evolution. And I think a lot of people listening to this will be surprised to think about you as a top reality TV star at this time. I think you'd already written a book and people are like, well, didn't he just have the money to purchase the brand outright?

27:17What do you think that this experience has really done to you in your personal finance journey? I mean, at the end of the day, top reality star, self-employed. So for any self-employed entrepreneur, you would know. And I kind of had like similar financial habits, whether I was making like$30 ,000 a year or$3 million a year, which is like impulse buy now, think about it later. And I've worked really hard to budget. I've worked really hard to be more proactive about it. And I think it was the trauma of realizing that I was going to have like a seven-figure shortfall of something that I thought I was going to have.

27:53and knowing it's like not only does Amorous have employees like I have like seven full-time employees yeah I also found out through this process that I was like one of less than 10 % of American companies that with firms of under 10 employees that pay for all of their health insurance and all of their 401ks so I mean I also pay above industry standard like on all of my roles um so navigating that with a shortfall trying to keep my you know myself happy and hopeful through that was really hard. But I think that it, it also just, it taught me like, don't live so close to the edge. Which I think is important for everyone to hear, especially in this world that we live in, which is like show and like expend beyond your means.

28:36But it's like being able to have that safety net to figure out like, you never know what's going to happen. It's so important. Yes. Okay. So when song global comes in December, 2023, it sounds like you were really excited about this. Yes. Did you have a say at all in who bought it or walk me through the process for where you have these three buyers and you're like, okay, I want to go with this one. What happens? So that, so yes and no. Like if the Jojo people had come in and been like, we're going to offer 10 million, then no, because bankruptcy court would say we need to pay off our debt. We're taking the 10 million.

29:08Correct. Amorous had almost$2 billion of it at the time. Which just to be clear, that's$2 ,000 million. You guys, I do this whole bit in my show now when I realized that a billion was like a thousand millions and not 100 millions wow that's why billionaires aren't supposed to exist you guys because that's a thousand millions it's insane that's so much remez it is so much remez so many houses you can make a house made of box kelly's and just replace it anytime there's like even like the tiniest little scratch so they have almost two billion dollars worth of debt so of course they're gonna take a 10 million dollar offer versus a 1.25 million dollar offer so if that had happened that would have been like really sad but i also think if that had happened i probably would have had legal recourse to like step away.

29:52Yes. And so I do think that ultimately Amorous did want a more beneficial working relationship between me and whoever, because it would probably make their life easier later. So I didn't have a say, but I think everyone wanted, because I wanted to stay with the brand and I wanted to preserve like as many people that we were employing at the time, that was my number one priority. So I think that had a little bit of weight, but the biggest weight was like who was going to pay the most. So it goes to Wensong Global. Yes. And I'm really relieved. What happens? I can't remember where I was on that day, but I remember when it happened, like I had just had my butthole surgery and it was really painful.

30:38And Teresa was like, stop telling me about your butthole all the time. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I can't stop talking about my butthole. It's like, I just literally cannot stop talking about it because it just hurts so bad and this is just so crazy and I can't believe that my body like grew in a second butthole. Yeah like I cannot believe that my gay body betrayed me in this way. And so yeah I was just kind of dealing with that and then when that but there was like weeks there like in like that like November to early December where like every time I would like walk into my bathroom and like look at my products like it was like Julia Roberts and my pretty woman was like lay a whisper and I was going to be like no!

31:13I was like I was like look at my shampoo and conditioner in the shower and be like no I'm gonna go get fucking bile lashed I never want to see again and I was just like so sad but I never did throw my stuff away I never threw it away but I was like I just like looked at it and I was like why I feel like fucking dancing here again at 94 I was just like so upset and then when I realized that we were gonna have a future and we were gonna have a home I was like oh my god it feels so good to not resent you girls that was such a rough three weeks I didn't want to like feel about like that about you guys because I just love you so much but the thought of us like not having a future was like really sending me and it just made me feel so sad yeah but yeah i had two buttholes so it's just like so much so you fix your butthole you only have one now yes i've just been can i tell you though after that after that i was like okay if i do not have colon cancer i am so like if my butt's fine i'm still getting on GLP ones because like, ow, like I cannot, because like my body was just betraying me like left, right, and center.

32:10And so that was like a huge turning point because I was in so much like physical and mental and like emotional pain that I was like, I am done being stuck. I'm like done not feeling good. Like I will do anything to feel better. And so it really made me like, I like, I fired my business manager. So you'll love this part of the story. I fired my business team. Cause I was like, y 'all are crazy. That was, I think what I wanted. Cause I was on celebrity teams. So I was the person that was helping these people build brands. And like, JV and I have to be honest, when I was first negotiating equity deals for clients, like, I had no fucking clue what I was doing.

32:44I was like calling my sister who's a CPA, like head of finance at a brand being like, what am I doing here? Like, how do I like do with this deal? I was trying to hire investment bankers to help consult for me being like, how do I negotiate equity for this client versus like, so I took it upon myself to really like help these celebrities feel empowered. And so that was the video where I was like, he needs to fire his team because this is not something that like, he didn't go to MBA business school. And so I'm so happy to hear that you did that. So you fire the team. Well, I still have my, I still have like my agents and my legal team that got me into that deal.

33:18And so we talk about that sometimes, but that's okay. The other thing too that we did when we went with Winsong is I do have equity now. That's what I was going to say. Which is so exciting. So like, how did you guys structure it now? Like from that day forward, you're like, I have a new home. I have new partners. Like what happens then? Well, I feel like my team kind of learned from their mistakes, which was good. And so now I just have like a base equity no matter what, which is amazing. Yeah. Then in success, it can be like a different one. Okay. And then I also can get like bonuses based off of EBITDA, which is cute.

33:42So now I know what EBITDA is, which is really fun. So that's kind of how it is now. So like in success, if we sell someday, when we sell someday, I will stay with the company because I'm such a control freak. I have to be with my girls. So you now have your people, both your products and your actual people. So did the entire team from Amorous come over or did you lose some people? There were layoffs that happened in that, like, I think right when bankruptcy happened, I think we lost a couple people there. But that's the crazy part is that, like, most of our team stayed and most of them are still with us.

34:15And they are, like, some ride or die, like, loyal, hardworking, creative people. Well, you guys have the best products in the industry for hair care. Like, I swear. That's why I was so upset when this whole thing was going down. Well, it really is different because, I mean, we are silicone-free and we use hemisqualine, which really is, like, a fundamentally different way of approaching hair care. Like, air dry cream, if you don't have a Hero product, it's really hard to, like, to boogie yourself through anything. And so that, luckily for us, and not to, like, take credit, but, like... You're like, I came up with that.

34:44I did. Yeah, okay. I did. The name, the formula. I mean, I worked with it on a chemist, but, I mean, that was, like... Which one is it? Let's hold it up. Okay. And to me, and I mean, I've been doing hair since I was 18 years old. This is the most universal, beautiful product. It literally works. If you put this on detangled hair, like 1A to 4C, it will just make your texture come out and be so much better. So our sales stayed strong. It wasn't like they, like, you know, cratered. But some of the biggest, and Teresa, our president, told me, like, from the very beginning, she was like, this year is going to suck.

35:14Like, transition years suck. And they always are going to suck. And the numbers are going to be shitty. And the market meetings, you're going to want to, like, run out of there sobbing. And it's just going to suck. And I was in the first market meeting that we did after the transition. I was like, I literally said my exact words leaving that. I was like, that felt like a drive by shooting. Like, literally were my exact words. Just red, just nothing but red on those graphs. And just all these corporate people in Sephora. And I was like, oh, this feels bad. But wow, what a slog. We really turned that.

35:48We really turned it around. We got so much better, so much stronger. So at the beginning, it was about like optimization, obviously. And I think that like people thought it was going to be an easier transition than it was. That created a lot of difficulty, like getting everything switched over on the back end so that that's like seamless on like a website. And then you like open up the hood and you're like, wait, how did they build this website? And then when, you know, your team can control that versus like how some other team built that like, you know, three years ago in the height of fucking COVID, that was a bitch.

36:14So, you know, fixing all that and untangling all of that, getting the website functional, getting like the operation side squared away because that was like our team getting to take ownership for something that they did not have ownership for. So you're just like uncovering like disaster after disaster after disaster. So then I started filming Queer Eye season nine, like the end of March. And that was just like knock down, drag out, gut wrenching, so much anxiety. I can't even tell you. And actually, I've never said this in front of Teresa before, but I'll say it now. There were like times in that transition where I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore.

36:55I don't even know if I can't do this anymore. Like my soul has just been catwalked on by like stilettos, like Valentino stilettos, but with like little like razors on the end of those little diamond things. And I just felt like I had just been like, just, and I also think like in an election year when you've been like an outspoken political person and you're a brand founder, there was like so much tension there. And then, like, topping off my 2024, like, ending up in, like, a$220 million, like, pro-Trump campaign. I just really could not fucking catch a break in 2024. So that was a lot. I mean, I really feel like every kind of nightmare that I ever hoped wouldn't happen to me in my career, like, kind of happened to me within the space of, like, I don't know, six months.

37:40So to come out the other side now, and when we, like, when I found out that we, like, were going to get the opportunity to expand into Ulta, like, massive. And I've never really talked about this either, but like through some of that, like I had advertisers leave my podcast, just taking so many hits like to your reputation and to your humanity and having people question like, are you a good person? Are you a bad person? Are you an idiot? Or like, you know, there's just so much all in that time. And so coming out on the other side, when we started, like when advertisers started to come back, and when we started to get better opportunities and when our sales did start to get better, when we did that really hard work of like fixing all of those systems and getting our operations better and sourcing our, being able to take control of our sourcing and how we advertise, how we do marketing, how we pay things for social, how we do photo shoots.

38:30I mean, we changed how we do everything outside of literally packaging and our formulas, which is really expensive. Yeah. We have not touched it. So I'm really proud of that. Honestly, not to sound like a wokey left girl, but I think it's because I'm queer. I mean, I had to do that my entire life. Like contracting HIV, growing up in a really conservative community. Like to this day, if someone says faggot, I'm like, yes. Like, I mean, I was so mercilessly bullied, like verbally, physically, like never felt safe where I was from. And I think that's why as an adult, like I just feel like there's a part of me that just, and I've said this my whole career, like I feel like I'm in a constant state of shock because like it's just so much better.

39:16Like I feel like, and even if I had never gotten Queer Eye, like just going to the salon and being in a salon in a city where I had like a community and like clients, like I just, I was like, I felt like, you know, Ariel with legs. Like I just felt like I had made it, you know? So even if I had never done Queer Eye, never done JVN hair, Never had a podcast. Never, you know, sold four New York time bestselling novels. Well, three bestselling novels, one bestselling children's book. Not that anyone's counting. But I would have been happy and fulfilled because I love doing hair. So that's one thing I'm really lucky for that I did have that North Star that I've always loved.

39:50But I think that's why I've been able to pick myself up is like I learned from a young age that like you need to be able to like entertain yourself. and you need to have something that like you are excited for or you won't be able to make it in life, not even like successfully, like you will not survive. Yeah. If there is something that you are not passionate and excited to do. Or you have a mission. Like I think that's what like I always look for. And even like influencers or brands, it's like, do you have something that's going to pick you up off the floor and get you to that next place? You've also talked about the fact that you are a people pleaser.

40:23So how do you on the one hand have that trait? And then on the other hand, you're able just to like get through the shit of it when you're in it. I learned from a young age that you need to be able to entertain yourself and you need to have something that like you are excited for or you won't be able to make it in life. Not even like successfully, like you will not survive. Yeah. If there's something that you are not passionate and excited to do. Or you have a mission. I think that's what I always look for. And even influencers or brands, it's like, do you have something that's going to pick you up off the floor and get you to that next place.

40:55You've also talked about the fact that you are a people pleaser. So how do you, on the one hand, have that trait? And then on the other hand, you're able just to get through the shit of it when you're in it. I don't know. Well, I mean, so much of my therapy has been like in finding my centered self, like in internal family systems, which is like in parts therapy, which is like what I do with my therapist a lot. It's about like cultivating your centered self, which is really like all of us have a centered self. And that's like, that's like the one that's like really clear and compassionate and calm and courageous and centered.

41:27And so it's like working on like finding who that is and getting out of like my people pleaser part or the part that I have that's really polarized with my people pleaser part is my irritated part, which has also historically gotten me into trouble. So like getting both of them to like calm down enough so I can just be like calm and centered and like feel like I'm in my power has been like what so much of my therapeutic work has been. I feel like if I was you, I would just be waking up and be like, I'm literally just trying to make people beautiful and make people feel good. And I'm getting all of this criticism for that.

41:58Do you ever just wake up every day and just be like, why is this happening to me? Well, I think we're in the middle of like a pretty intense, like rightward cultural shift, which I think is why a lot of that's been happening. So some of that, like, I don't really take super personally. Although, you know, Cheryl Porter, she's this like incredible voice coach. She's like a 22 million follower queen on TikTok. She's got like 12 million followers on her YouTube. She's just making her debut right now on Anjuliette on Broadway, but she's incredible. She said something to me that really I have not stopped thinking about it.

42:29And I think she changed my life. And I think she also like kind of healed two years of trauma with like one sentence. I said something that wasn't even like all of the story about what we're talking about. But it was something about me feeling embarrassed or like shame about something that had happened publicly. And she was like, you have got to stop thinking about yourself like that. Like, it's not about what happened to me. It's about what can I do for people? Like, you have this huge platform. Like, what can you do for people? What do people want from you? Like, stop thinking about, like, oh, this happened to me because I had this.

42:58And it's like, no, like, being of service isn't just, like, going to volunteer or, like, going to, like, you know, donate something in a soup kitchen. Like, being of service is, like, what do people need from you? And I was like, oh, my God. I'm so passionate. I'm so creative. I'm all about exploring self-acceptance and like figuring out like how to get in like a better relationship with myself. That, I mean, my literal mission statement is to spread self-acceptance by modeling joy and curiosity. It's literally what my mission statement is. I love that. And it always comes back to that. So I was like, girl, like stop thinking about this criticism.

43:29Stop thinking about the failure. Stop thinking about like, oh my God, these things happened to me and start thinking about. And it really was like she took a fucking gong and like rang this like bell. And it almost just, I was like. and it was so I think she Hoffman me already I think it happened like two weeks ago because it's really I've I like really responded like differently to like so many public not so many but a few public things that have happened since that recording where I'm like wow you just launched into 700 doors in Ulta which is like huge because what I read from your glossy article that I loved it goes back to your mission of like being a midwestern like that's where you were born is in the Midwest.

44:04And Sephora's don't reach that clientele as much as they reach like the New Yorkers, the LA. And so being an Ulta is such a huge accomplishment for you. You're met with controversy from people being like, he is a male biologically founded brand. Do people know that also like Olaplex is also like a male founded brand? Like they're like Andrew Rosen in the women's fashion, contemporary fashion category also is a male founded brand. So I guess for you to be met with that controversy when that should be a moment of celebration? Like, when do you draw the line of what you say and what you don't? Because there was a lot of like conversation on like, oh, this is like what society has normalized.

44:43And I was like, yeah, I can agree with you on that. Like we're normalizing thousands of children being starved to death in front of our eyes. We're normalizing people being blown away in our schools. We're normalizing literally women being forced into birth. 60 million women in this country don't have access to reproductive healthcare anymore. That's what we've normalized. We've normalized people getting shot and killed in broad daylight and then going to work an hour later like nothing happened. I think that's really not normal. I think that so many things in American culture have become so insanely normalized.

45:15But I think in a Christian way, as someone who was born and raised in the church and was a little altar boy every Sunday of my life and went to a Christian sports camp for 12 years for two weeks every summer where I won the En Fuego for Christ award, by the way. Um, Jesus is not concerned about me in a dress as much as he is about like the rampant poverty and corruption in a world where like, we have really not that many reasons to see the best in each other and hope the best for each other. I keep thinking about being angry at conservatives or policies and thinking that like, okay, well me being angry about that and using my platform to talk about how pissed off I am about that kind of feels like me.

45:55It feels like what I really want Chick-fil-A, you know, but I know that's bad for me. Don't even support our community, you know? But I really need to, like, make the food at home. But I don't want to make the food at home. I want to do the easy thing. I just, like, want to order it. It's easier for me to, like, be angry and, like, be mad at another side and demonize another person than it is for me to say to myself, maybe they were fed information that's not true. Maybe they are in a culture of fear. Like, maybe they just haven't met anyone. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like easier for us to be like distrustful and angry at someone than it is for us to like get into our compassion because it's harder to be compassionate when you have reason and lived experience to not be.

46:33Which if we were really talking about Jesus out here, that is what turning the other cheek means. It means like literally being burnt and turning the other cheek to be burnt again. But the point is, I think that's really what his message is about is turning the other cheek. You're meant to be compassionate with people. You're meant to like not judge people. So, yeah, I just think growing up in such a conservative place, I'm, like, not at all surprised. I'm always disappointed, but I'm never surprised. Because, I mean, my hometown voted for Trump, like, three to one. Like, I'm very— Do your parents still live there?

47:04Yes. Well, no, my dad doesn't. My mom does. And you go back and visit? Not that much, no. I was going to say, like, what does that bring up for you if you were, like, going back to the place that was just hard to grow up in? Yeah, I don't love it. We went for an episode of Queer Eye. It was really hard. I thought in the moment it felt really cathartic. And then I found out after we left that there was like an uptick in like attacks on queer people after we left. And that just made, I wrote about it in my second book. You know, like in that song, I think it was by Cassandra that Taylor wrote. She said when it's like, when it's like burn the bitch, they're screaming.

47:39But when the truth comes out, it's quiet. So it's like, but that also goes for good news too. Like people will celebrate the good things. But then if there is like another thing after, it's like doesn't want to look with that. Doesn't want to. Well, I feel like that's even true for your success, too. Like people are happy for you to a certain point. And it's like I realized, too, that it's like heavy is the head that wears the crown. Like when you start achieving and you add to your list of like, you know, I am a stand up comedian that has sold out tours and I have best selling New York Times books and I'm a beauty brand founder that has risen from the ashes.

48:11and I'm doing this again, like, it's so hard to rationalize as a human where it's like, as soon as you keep going up and up, people are just waiting to tear you down. Yes. That is hard for me to rationalize with because I'm just like, we're so here for when things are going badly. And then when things are going well for people, we don't want to celebrate it if it's too much for us. Yes. Yeah. It's interesting, right? Yeah. Can we talk about Queer Eye for a second? Okay, I'm so interested in the transformation that changed you more than it probably changed the person. Ooh. Oh, my God. There's a few.

48:50Tammy always comes up for me. I think she was, like, season two, episode one. Also, interestingly, when Rolling Stone did come out, she was, like, one of the very first voicemails that, like, I had. She was like, we don't believe shit, honey. Like, keep your head up. Like, don't you let them, like, tear you down. I'm like, I know that's bullshit. Like, she was like, she's just, anytime anything good or bad happens, she's like one of the very first people there. Like, she's just such a love. When I did my last, I just did my first young adult fiction novel this year. And it was so fun to write.

49:19But I did the book tour in Atlanta and she was like in the front row. She's just like so cute. Mama Tammy, she's like such a good person. But she's a huge one. Angel always comes up for me too. She was season six. What was the biggest part of their transformation? um well I mean mama Tammy was I really feel like she was more for us than we even were for her I mean what Bobby did to her like community center was like so sweet and it's like really cool how that center is still used in her community it's like I think it's really helped her community um but I feel like her love and attention like after the show has been like really so healing I mean she's like a confidant yeah like I love her I follow her kids like I follow her like I I love her.

49:59Angel, again, I think it's been more like after. Because seeing her kind of like come out of her, like, not that she was like in a shell, but I feel like when we did her episode of Queer Eye, it was like 2021. She was really early on in her transition. She was like navigating living in Texas as a trans woman. Now she lives in Seattle. She's so much more herself. She's like in a community where she feels safe. And she's like in her 20s. So just, like, seeing her, like, expand and grow and, like, become the woman that she is is, like, just really inspiring for me. And also it kind of makes me realize, like, some of the ways that, like, I, like, unintentionally put her in a box, like, on her episode.

50:35Like, I was like, let's do, like, a blended red light. Like, she wants bold-ass red fucking panels all over her hair. And it's not like she, I don't think she said that back then. But it's just, like, seeing her evolve to the woman that she is now. I'm like, wow, like, how have there been ways where, like, I've been, like, doing what I think would look best without maybe investigating as much as what I thought even the person wanted? Like, I feel like that's kind of a lesson she taught me is, like, dig deeper, ask more questions. I think Jamie also from, like, Queer Eye in Austin, she did, like, Safe in Austin.

51:03She has this, like, huge animal shelter. And she's one that, like, I feel like really changed me, still does change me. And watching her, she's, like, someone who, similarly, I think has had a really hard time after the show and doesn't have as much support. And, like, I see her social not get the love and the support that it, like, once did. And I think that's been hard for her. And it's hard to, like... Watch it. Yeah. How do you feel with Queer Art entering into its last season? Well, we wrapped it last month. We finished. And then we just went to the Emmys, like, two weeks ago or, like, a week ago, which was for season nine.

51:36Did not expect to win. That was amazing. That was really fun. That was your second? Yeah, that was our second. It was the show's seventh. so not expecting for them to call our name at all um and then there's this thing at like award shows where like there's camera people there you know so you can kind of tell like if the camera's in your face like you might win but if the camera's nowhere close and like and that's i could tell in 2024 because like all the cameras were like by shark tank and i was like oh my god like we're not winning yeah we're so not winning this and so then when we were there this year the camera guy took like three gaping steps like past me and i was like oh shit but i was like that's fine i was like already in place of acceptance like i knew we weren't gonna win and then like the lights came on and she opened the envelope and she was like queer eye and then i felt this like whoosh of air and he was like in my face and i was like the only other time this is perfect for the fistula to come back the only other time in my life i made that shocked of a face is when i found the second butthole i literally my face like i forgot that i was in glam like when they said queer i was like like i palmed my face all the way like i knocked off lashes it was so i cried it was so fun it was it actually was like the most fun win of anything I've ever won because I totally did not think we were going to and I'd already accepted not winning like I was so just happy to be there and then I was like oh my god the gala is going to be way more fun now and it was so do you think that you'll do reality tv moving forward I hope so I think it needs to be like the right project and I also think like my mission statement I'm serious about that like I do I really want to spread self-acceptance by modeling joy and curiosity so it's like if it doesn't fall in line with that um I also have been like I'm working on a fiction project right now and I've been learning how to um I just I really like writing and I also with JVN hair like this morning I spent like three hours like shooting our air dry cream like jumbo stuff or like our jumbo content I did like three models hair I did my models hair tomorrow I have a whole salon day to make social content so I really get like my hairdresser and like artist like mind satiated and doing our models and like prepping our models and doing all of our photo shoots.

53:39And then when I'm not doing that, I really am either like working on standup or working on writing something or my podcast, which takes up like so much of my time, as you understand. So that's kind of like what I spent my time doing, but I would love to do unscripted. I think the other thing about unscripted TV is like not in a good place right now. Like Lizzo, I just saw this really good TikTok where she was like the age, she's like, I'm Lizzo, I'm a multi like platinum recording artist. And this is why I tell you that like the golden age of like music videos is dead. I was like, I need to do a hook like that where it's like, I'm on like one of the longest running Netflix shows of all time.

54:11And let me tell you why unscripted is like, because if it's like, no network is willing to take a risk on anything. And you have to like have such insane numbers for them to bring you back a second time, which is why us making it for 10 seasons is like unheard of. Yeah. Can I tell you my thesis? Tell me. My hypothesis. Tell me. is I actually think that brands are going to be funding a lot of the unscripted shows. Yeah. But I'm like, so are you familiar with that brand Built? Yes. So they did that like Roomies, Roomies, Roomies series. And then InStyle did the like intern on social media. I feel like JVN Hair is going to do like an unscripted thing.

54:51Yes. I love that. Yeah. Like I just feel like because realistically, the consumer, at least of JVN Hair, like they want to see you using the products. Like how do I fix my hair like this? And how do I do this? and how to do that. And like, it's not just about that. And that's what I realized about my show was like, yes, we could be an everyday like founder podcast, right? Where you just talk about the brand, but that is so not real life. Like your life is existing at the same time you're building a brand. And so I wanted to create a space where it's like, you learn about the, who the person is as they're building the brand, as much as you're actually learning a tip or a trick.

55:24And I think that's so true with where content is going is like, people want that longer form of the brands that they're obsessed with because you've created this world of jbn what are the three words that you would describe jbn hair as actually oh expressive okay inclusive and maybe it's like celib no expressive inclusive i think people like throw around like like the word holistic so that's what i mean when i say that it's kind of a fundamentally different way of approaching your hair if i had to do packaging again i was really in like my row phase and I still am in my row phase. Like the row.

56:01Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll never like fall out of love with Mary-Kate and Ashley. Like they've just had me in like a stranglehold since I was like two. And like I think about that part and it takes two and she was like chopping. Like I just love them so much. I can't get over how much, you know that part, right? Yeah. So that's why all these are beige. From the row. Yeah. I was like to me when I think of like expensive luxury I think the row, I think beige. I need timeless. I need classic. I would make these like brighter and cuter now. And if you notice, like, our line has evolved, like, brighter and cuter.

56:32Yeah. So if I had that to do over, I would totally do that again. I just was like, I was like, everything needs to be beige and timeless. And then I realized that in Sephora, it ended up looking like a fucking locker room stall because everything was beige. And I was like, oh. But we're sustainable girls around here, so we're selling through all of that, okay? We're not just, like, taking our stuff and dumping it out, which is what a lot of other brands do. We're selling through our stuff because really I did not want a bunch of, like, shit at TJ Maxx or floating at the bottom of an ocean. because like I was like, oh, that color could be cuter, but it's the same formula.

57:01And there's so much waste. It's for a reason. We're trying to like not be wasteful. Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded. So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like tea time you. Mmm. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you. So did you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you. So update on Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rinse. It's time to be great. This episode is brought to you by eBay. Before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes, shopping used to feel more fun.

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58:06It's crazy though, because I, as a millennial, like I love beige. And I feel like every brand actually tried to be like Gen Z and like these big bright colors because that's what we thought Gen Z wanted. But like - You think they'll come back to beige? I do. I love beige. I still love it. I still love it more than anything. I actually think like. You know what I also love is pastel tie dye. Same. Same. So I'm like, do we just go like. A little. But then it's going to look like a Mika and I can't do that. I don't want to look like a kaleidoscope. I got to say, if you went like super bright, I don't feel like it would be like.

58:36It's not us. But can I tell you that in like, it was like, I think it was 2023. And me and T were like, you know, it's such a hot color. And we were like, butter yellow. And then we were like, because that's when we decided to do our dry champ and like our styling line, like expanding into more of like a buttery yellow. So like it's still like supple and like refined. Because if you notice, when the row branches into color, they'll do yellows and limes. So it's like we can, if the row doesn't do it, then I don't want to do it. If they've never done it, then I'm like, I can't do that color. That's kind of like a barometer for me.

59:08Is your dream collaboration with JVN Hair, the row? It's not because I think I would die. and so for the health of like the brand and everything I just like I don't want us to have like a dead founder you know so who is your dream collaboration with JVN Hair well it would be so fun to do Mary Kate and Ashley but I really do think I would fucking die like I think I would just like drop the fuck dead but can I just say they would both be so good for air dry cream okay so we're gonna get them all they really want I think Mark Townsend still does their hair and I used to assist for him when I was at Sally Hirschberger and he would come to LA when he really worked in New York.

59:43So he's like, watch his clients. I said, Mark, you remember me? I got you a good coffee. Okay, so if Mark ever can't do their hair, you're filling in for Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen. I don't know. I really do think I'd die. They can just use my products. Okay, who is the person you fangirled over using JVN hair? Well, there's one really famous person who I can't say. So she was like really cool. I was like, oh my God. Wait, which product does she use? She uses our nurture mask. Okay. Is there a celeb that you really want to use JVN hair that hasn't yet other than the Olsen twins? I mean, I'm so down with anyone using.

1:00:14Like, I'm kind of Dolly Parton in that sense. Like, I'm agnostic. The person who I've always wanted to use my products and, like, my biggest celebrity, like, dream, like, did. And she ruined me for this question. And so now it's, like, the inaugural part of every podcast where I get to talk about Michelle Kwan, who is the most decorated American figure skater of all time. And actually, I literally tested instant recovery serum on her hair when I was formulating it. I blew her hair out with all of our products and yeah, she was one of the first people that I did IRS on. It was in Philadelphia. I met her there to test it on her.

1:00:47She's been a huge supporter of our brand from the jump and I love her so much and I can't believe that she wanted to be my friend because she came on Queer Eye season three. So like, she really did kind of ruin me for like meeting your heroes because I met my hero. But she was amazing. I know, but it's like no one ever can like live up to that. Like she was, she like for most people if it was like your Beyonce or your like your Adele or like, it was always Michelle Kwan. I've only ever been talking about Michelle Kwan. When I wrote over the top my first book, my editor was like, girl, you have a problem.

1:01:12I think you referred to her like 222 times. Like it needs to, you got to bring it back down to earth like 10 times or something. Oh my God. So I think we compromised on like 80. She just really got to be my young queer trauma. Like she was like my beacon of light and hope. And she never stopped. And now she's like my friend and she uses my product. So I just. Oh my God. This is the best to see this evolution for you. I know it's major. Oh my God. Okay. I can't have you on the show and not ask you about my transformation I need to do. So looking at me, what is one thing that you think that I should evolve?

1:01:43Well, one thing I've been thinking this whole time is I love your cheek color. What is that blush? Oh, it's Kosas. Life is something. Can I tell you something else? Yeah. So Alex Consani said on TikTok that we're never putting anything on our temples because it snatches you back. So ever since then, I've been militant about not putting any blush. Wait, if you put blush here, it snatches you back? No, she said if you don't put anything there, it snatches you back. So she was like, I never put any makeup right here because it snatches. But now I feel like she's wrong because this blush that you have, because I can feel like your blush place and you put it up here.

1:02:16And now all I want to do is take blush and put it up here. Because I feel like this that you're giving me this whole time, I can't believe that I didn't stop the conversation to talk about that until now. Because it was, in fact, you know those times I was losing my train of thought? Yeah, you're looking at the blush. This entire time. Wait, because I saw this Instagram video that was like. It's so pretty. Is it? Okay. But what's the thing I can change? Okay, well, do you want to, okay, let's talk about your hair. Yeah. I can see that your natural color is lighter than your brown. Yeah. And I just always feel for people that go darker than their natural color because it's, like, really annoying to, like, I almost feel like that's, like, a more annoying root than when you're, when it's dark and it's lighter down here.

1:02:52It's, like, more forgiving. Okay. This is a line. Yeah. And so I think one thing that you could do is, I love you, Brunette, and I think you're so pretty. Like, no notes. I just like hate lines of demarcation and I hate having to deal with them because I think it's expensive and it's time consuming. So what I've been doing with a lot of my clients is switching them from permanent color to semi-permanent color because it has a softer grow out. And then that way, as you wash your hair, it like sloughs off over the next like 30 to 40 washes. So it won't be totally your virgin color, but it's, you see your hair color start to come out.

1:03:23I like to compare it to the difference between like pantyhose and tights. Okay. Permanent is tights. Semi-permanent is pantyhose. Okay. So that I would talk to your colorist about evolving to a semi-permanent base instead of a permanent base. Okay, one other question. Do you see these hairs right here? Yes. How they separate? Should I laser this so it's not discharging? As someone who is living on borrowed time for my hairline, because everyone in my family is like bald and I don't know how, I still have hair at 38. I could never advocate for someone lasering hair off their head. It just feels...

1:03:58But look at this. Can we transplant it? Can I come with you? Can we transplant it in my hairline? Nice hair. But what? But it's like detached. I love that. Spray some dry shampoo on it. Oh, really? Spray some dry shampoo on it right now. Right now? Okay. Yeah, with love. Okay. I didn't mean to be so bossy. I think that might like join your friends with your other friends. So do I lift up my hair and do this? Do I have to press it down? Yeah, you got it. Oh, my God. I always feel like Blake Lively when she was on her press tour when I do this to people. Oh, my God. JVN just did my hair. I think I met my celebrity crush in real life.

1:04:28God, I'm so honored. Okay, wait. What do we think? I just, you have great hair. Thank you. But the hairline is a problem. It's not a problem. You know, I almost wonder if this is a bit... It's a mystery. Well, I think that it might want to live on the other side. And so I need to change my part. Yeah, but you can only do that when it's, like, wet. Okay. You know, when it's, like, dry, it doesn't want to do that. Okay. But that did fluff it up and blend it in. Okay. So, I mean, I feel like... I'm sweating through my shirt so bad. You, the start off of this interview had me so fucking nervous. So do you feel like a little, like, was it cathartic to talk to the person that made that video a little bit?

1:05:03It was more fun. Okay. Yeah. And I do really want you to know that, like, it came from a place of not trying to tear it down, but being like, I am. Can I tell you the only part that really hurt my feelings that I really didn't like? Yeah. It's talking about my team, girl. Because my endorsement, I've known those kids. I was meant for the business manager. Like, the person who, like, really, like. The next time you do a video like that, be more specific. Okay. Okay. Because they're such a big team. And then they're like, oh, my God. And then they're like, oh, my God, do we fuck it up? And, like, are you mad?

1:05:32Because, like, that video went far and wide. So my team, you had them shaking in their boots. And they got mouths to feed. And can I say, like, the thing about me is. That you're Canadian and you guys just really are direct. But you're really nice. And also, like, I'm sorry. Like, if it, like, hurt you. Do not apologize. Anything would have hurt me. Looking at me at the wrong way would have hurt me in that time. I was very sensitive. I know. But I just want you to know from a place of, like, I made it. because I am such a fan of what you've built. And I was like so confused and sad. Yeah, like if you rewatch it, which I did a bunch leading up into this interview, I don't feel like I came at it from a place of like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing.

1:06:07It was like, what happened? Like, this is crazy. And I really just feel like what you've done with this brand and like everything that you've gone through is probably the most impressive turnaround like I have ever seen. I think you are going to be so incredibly successful I actually need you to message me if you're ever raising money. Like, I would love to invest. Call Bill. Yeah, like, if you guys raise money, like, please, like, I, please call me. And I'm just so impressed, and I'm so grateful you came on. But also, I could tell when you made that video that there was, like, care and love in there.

1:06:42And, like, I really could. And you were so complimentary in it. And, like, like, and I just was, it's embarrassing. It's not. Well, no, sometimes having a flop is embarrassing. But that's, I think, what I love about people. like you who like climb so high and the higher that you climb, it's so much harder to put yourself out there because you do risk failing. And I'm nowhere near you now. But like the podcast today that we're recording is the number 33 in the world. And so like I get afraid to try new things or like have longer episodes or like do different things because I'm like, oh, we have a formula.

1:07:12It's working. But that's actually what will kill businesses is when you stop experimenting and you stop trying. So I feel like everyone just needs a little JVN in their life. So what day is your podcast out that people should be listening to? We do Wednesdays is getting better. Okay. And that's where we're just getting better at doing things. Okay. It could be getting better at, like, work-life balance or money or, like, understanding a topic that I'm confused by. Like, I'm doing one on, like, understanding belonging better and, like, being better at handling rejection. Okay. So there's, like, two that I'm excited for.

1:07:41I just did one on singing better. And then Mondays are our Monday edit where that's me and our senior producer. And we're talking about, like, the BTS of the pod, the news. We do our Hot Bitch of the Week. Love it. My Hot Bitch of the Week. right now or last week was like the shit like the shadow side of the street because like it's just so much cooler okay love that you know so it's never really a person it's usually like a thing okay um then it's like the jonathan van news desk it's like the things that we're following is fun so i love the monday edit we got a little joy there okay if you followed my career for a long time my first like foray on camera was this thing called gay of thrones yeah i remember that like the monday edit is giving like my gay of thrones energy so it's a little more light a little bit more fun used to be more beauty based on mondays we did pretty curious and then the audience was like girl we don't want to hear about that anymore okay we want the audience is always right yes so now we kind of evolved it and so that's mondays and wednesdays and i have so much fun doing it okay can i ask you a few rapid fires yes i'm like literally obsessed with you it's a problem um don't give me your phone number because i'm gonna text you all the time no please i want to give it to you and i have to smash the follow button i want to be friends yeah me too okay You can only pick one for the rest of your life.

1:08:45Okay. HIV medicine. Reality TV or stand-up comedy? Stand-up comedy. Okay. Ooh, you're dancing coffee every day? Yeah. Or solid core? Solid core. Do you still do your dancing coffee, though? I do. Okay. Ooh, you can only have one. You have to sell the rest. Kelly's or Birkin's? Sell the Kelly's, even though they don't resell as well. Okay. But I like Birkin's better. Okay. Dry shampoo or fresh blowout? If I'm doing it for myself, dry shampoo. Because, like, if I just blew that thing out, like, I don't want to have to do it again. So, for myself, dry shampoo. But if it's, like, me refreshing my own blow dry or, like, going to get a fresh blow dry, then I would, like, much rather have a fresh blow dry.

1:09:23Okay. Heels or flats? Flats. Oh, really? I feel like you look so good in heels. Me and my stylist are really at a throw right now. Because she keeps trying to put me in stilettos all the time. And I'm, like, I'm almost 40 and I can feel my bunions, like, fucking beating in my third eye. If it's not a platformer wedge, I can't handle it. So JVN on this podcast reveals he has two buttholes and three eyes. Yes. Okay. What is the most overrated hair trend right now? I have, like, a—I have—even when they were, like, big the first time in 2006 to 11, I, like, fucking hate tinsel strand. Wait, I don't know what that is.

1:09:55Because I haven't seen these fucking tinsel strands in everybody's fucking hair again. Okay, so that's a no. Yeah, like, what next? The fucking feathers? Okay. Oh, my God, I did that at a music festival, and it was just, like, no. Like, recently? No, this was, like, 2012. 12, 13. It's coming back. It's back. No, like Burning Man needs to stay in Burning Man. Girl, I don't like these accoutrement in the hair. Who is one celebrity hair that you would love to fix? Okay. I don't want to get canceled. You won't. But, and it's not, like, it's sheer, sheer curiosity. Because I am really good at, like, understanding how hair moves.

1:10:34Like, as a hairdresser in hair school, we're taught, like, to break down an updo. Like, where is this hair coming from? Like, how would you have formed this? Like, you have to, like, guess based off of a picture what's happening. I cannot figure out what's going on with Donald Trump's hair. Like, I don't know where anything is coming from. I don't know where it starts. I don't know where it stops. I don't want to do it. I don't want to fix it. I don't want to be in the same fucking room with him. Like, and there's not enough Embody conditioner or shampoo and, like, that Blake Lively volumizing Blake Brown foam.

1:10:59There's not enough. There's not enough. It's not. I don't want to do it. But I am like a little curious, like from afar, if I could be like a fly on the wall to see his hairdresser do that. Because like where is it starting? Where is it stopping? Like what in the flat wrap is going on here? I don't understand what the fuck is going on with that fucking hair. Who's someone whose hair like I wanted you? I don't know. I just feel like celebrities have like such good hair. Like I don't have notes for most of them. Like most of them have like really good hair. Huh. You know who was so sweet that I got to do a scene with once?

1:11:33Helen Mirren. And she does not. Wait, I don't know who that is. Wow. Wait, like give me a hint. Helen Mirren. She's like iconic. She was like in, like, what has Helen Mirren not been in? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, Helen Mirren. I got to do a scene with her in like Sarah Cooper's like Netflix special where Sarah Cooper is like that comedian who like lip syncs Donald Trump. And then she did this special on Netflix. And I had to play the reporter who Trump and Billy Bush are talking about. Okay. And Helen Mirren was Billy Bush. Okay. Or Bobby Bush. Okay. Or whatever the fuck his name was. And then Sarah Cooper was Donald Trump.

1:12:07And so I had to, like, do a scene with Helen Mirren, which was, like, I still can't believe, like, in hindsight that I, like, was on camera with Helen fucking Mirren. And she has gray hair. She doesn't need anything done with her hair. She's just so cool. I think about this, like, I think it was, like, Paris Fashion Week. I can't remember who she was walking for. It could have been Vivian Westwood. But she was walking the show, and she lifts up her dress, and she's barefoot, and she just starts, like, running, like, down the runway. Oh, that's so cool. It gives me the chills thinking about it.

1:12:31So much so that I'm like, is my official coming back? Do I have COVID? Like, I don't really either of those things. I'm just saying the thought of her doing this run was like, she's just a bad bitch. Like, Helen Mirren is so cool. Okay, so you want to do her hair. Yeah. Okay, manifesting that for you. Last one, do you mute or unfollow people? I unfollow. I like that. If you're dead to me and you've absolutely, like, unfixable damage, I unfollow. Okay. Except for this one girl who I was drunk that was one of my really good friends who I just unfollowed because she hurt my feelings. So if you're watching this, Monique, that's why I unfollowed you.

1:13:03But it's not because you're dead to me. Will you follow her back if she apologizes? Do you hold grudges? Um, yeah, I'm working on it. Oh, what's your birthday? March 28th, I'm an Aries. Oh, but I feel like they're not grudge holders. Although this identity expert on the Today Show said that we shouldn't tell people our birthdays anymore. But I feel like mine's so publicized, like, why do I care? Wait, also, I just read something, I think it was in the New York Times, that actually, like our horoscopes are very off from when like I need to find this article for you and send it to and I don't want to butcher it but basically like the stars shifted so much that like when you actually search your birthday it's an interactive article in the New York Times I actually have like identified as a Gemini my whole life apparently based on what the stars were when I was born I'm actually a Taurus are you trans zodiac well I think that everybody is oh my god We're all like trans zodiac.

1:13:51Oh my God. JVN, I think you were probably in my favorite interview. I'm dead serious about wanting to invest in your brand if you ever raise money. I'm so impressed with you. I'm so grateful you came on and shared your story. And thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. And I'm so excited for your success. And come on at like top podcast queen. Thank you. Yes, I'd love to have you on mine sometime. I was like, where can people find you? I'm the most active on Instagram and TikTok. I'm at JVN on Instagram. And I'm at JVN underscore official on TikTok because someone got my fucking name on TikTok.

1:14:18Wait, who has it? I don't know, some boy whose name is JVN But he seems really nice and he's like young And so that's nice for him Have you ever asked, can I buy your name? No Okay I don't want to Okay I'm just gonna have my little JVN official Okay, well, we can find you on JVN and JVN official And thank you so much for coming on Thanks for having me Mwah