The Real Cost of Love, Business, and Building To $100M Together (Siff & Nish, Arrae)

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0:59In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it.

1:10Sif and Nish, welcome to Hot Smart Rich. Are you ready to get Hot Smart Rich? Let's go. So excited. I'm honestly so excited that we're here because I've known both of you guys independently, but definitely together. And I haven't seen you guys do a lot of together interviews, have you? We don't do that many. No. I think maybe the last one was when we did Lauren and Michaels. Yeah, that one. And we did one together on your podcast. Yeah, I love that one. No, we don't really do that one very often. Is that intentional or people just like don't ask? It's not intentional. Honestly, I think our time is like very limited.

1:46Yeah. And so we try to divide and conquer. And then also, I think it's tough to interview two people. And Nish and I both have a lot of personalities. So I feel like, I don't know. like it's only the pose we only yeah we only like going on podcasts where people ask us like good questions and insightful so we can say something about it because otherwise we've been on like in the early days we were on podcasts together where someone asked a question and Siff and I Siff would be like Nish get me out of this podcast right now you guys are making me so nervous now because I'm like oh about the pressure come on this is gonna be amazing this is gonna be you hang out with us enough to like know everything no this is like I remember I remember the one you were talking with I was like so funny Okay, well, let's start here because we are all technically from Canada.

2:32We are. You guys are actually, were you guys born in Canada? No. No. Okay, so you both emigrated to Canada and now you guys have emigrated here. We kind of moved at a similar-ish time frame. Can we just quickly talk on, like, how traumatic that experience was for you guys? I think, Maggie, it hit me harder than it hit Nish. And it's funny because I'm someone who's like very calm, typically like things don't really ruffle my feathers, but the, the visa situation was like hard. And so it was actually really nice for me to get to depend on you. He was like very calm through it. He's like, I don't know why you're worried.

3:09It's going to be fine. And I was like, how do you know that? Yeah. Because I think like the thing that people don't understand about if you're an immigrant building a business in the States is you don't only have the pressure of building the business and it failing on itself. You also have the pressure of like, can I sign a lease? At one point, if you don't even have a social security number, like you don't even have a bank account here. Like I remember the first walk we went for and you were like, I can't drive. I don't have a bank account. All of the money that I'm spending in the States is on a Canadian currency.

3:37It was insane. It was crazy. Why did you guys decide to leave Canada to build your business to move to the States? So what really happened is when we started the company, this inherently majority of our sales and our customers were in the U.S. Just inherently? Just right from the get-go, organically. And so we started the business, you know, March 2020. Literally by May, 90 % of sales were in the U.S. And so obviously we started, you know, nurturing those customers. And all of a sudden the business is bigger here. Then we started hiring more people here. and so it just made more sense for us to build a portion of the team in the U.S.

4:17So like all of our marketing team, a lot of our product development team is all based out of here. And so for us, it was like, okay, we have to be here because we want to be physically be with the team. And like for us, like building remotely is a part of what we do, but a lot of our primary kind of big ideas come under in person. And so even today, a lot of the team works together in person. So we just knew we had to be in the U.S. for that. And also for Sif and I, like the investors that we wanted to work with, the people that we wanted to work with, it was all here. So we just really wanted to move here as quickly as possible.

4:47Also, I think being a wellness brand, I think L.A. is really, I would say, one of the wellness capitals of the world. And so our intention when we thought of living in the U.S. was never to live in L.A. It was actually to live in New York. L.A. was kind of an accident. We came here actually to be on Lauren and Michael's podcast. And we were here for 10 days. And Nish and I were like, wait, like all the wellness trends are starting here. Like people are so ahead that it doesn't make sense for a wellness company to be headquartered anywhere but L.A. And so that's kind of how it happened. And then, of course, like even just from a personal wellness standpoint, living in L.A.

5:25is incredible. And I mean, I love New York and I love the energy that we get in New York. Don't get me wrong. But from a wellness standpoint, our quality of life is just just objectively better. You know, I get to walk outside in the morning. I'm just someone who gets more ideas that way. So it's just been really beneficial from both a business, but then also like a founder health and wellness perspective as well. Let me ask you guys, this is very controversial. Where I really wanted to start with you guys was going all the way back to deciding to like take the money for your wedding and actually put it into your business.

5:54And I don't think that I have met many people in Canada that do that. Whereas like that was almost a non-negotiable for you guys, where it was like, why would we do that when we could go and build for ourselves so when you guys had decided to get married and you made that decision can you just like take everyone through one like your love story of whatever you're comfortable talking about of like what that was actually like to come together and two especially for you guys once people hear like how significant that moment could be why you decided to spend that money in your business instead of on your wedding so I mean we met I mean it's our 13 year anniversary and like this Friday not Thursday Thursday what are you doing for it Nish we're going for dinner somewhere you guys go for dinner every week guys one of the things I love about you is like constant date night please be better Nish we you're right we were talking about it and we're like well what do we do and it's like we can't go on a trip because we're actually going on a trip like on Sunday for work okay and so it's not like I mean and also when your schedule is so packed it's like Nish hit me up for some ideas for Sip okay I will I actually will.

7:02I mean, he knows like my wish list for gifts and vice versa. So I guess we'll like get each other nice. We'll make something happen. We'll make something good happen. But yeah, we've like, we've been together for a long time. And both of us have always been very career focused. So I would say, you know, I, prior to Array, I was a creator. Nish was extremely successful in fintech. But we knew that at some point we wanted to work together on something. What that would be was undecided. for me I was always someone who I wasn't going to work on something unless it was like very meaningful to me personally that's just how I am and I'm also someone who's very like how can I make a difference in the world so when we found that idea it was kind of a no-brainer like for us I think I speak but also like you're such a girl's girl that like if you like you know the way that you think about Nish or you feel about him like was there ever a part of you that was like a tough decision of like it's either investing into my business or investing into the wedding you know what happened maggie we had started to plan our wedding and i was like this sucks like this is like the planning process is really like just hectic and then when we started to work on array we were like wait like this is so easy and so fun and so good for us both like it was like really energizing yeah it's like planning the wedding was the opposite of that and thankfully sif and i have all some people who we don't do things that we don't like to do and so like the moment when we started doing something and it feels like shitty, we stopped doing it.

8:31And so planning the wedding, thinking about that, like getting all of our families organized around that kind of stuff, it was so much work and not in a good way that we were just like, you know what, we don't want to do this. COVID hit when we started the business and it almost gave us like the perfect excuse to not host a wedding. And also we really wanted to work on the business and the business needed money. And so for us, we're just like, okay, let's just take this money and do this because it brings some more happiness we really believe in it and we actually don't want to do the wedding and we really want to do this like that's really what it felt yeah and then also we we always said that like we can always have a wedding like okay fine it won't be traditional but i wouldn't call nishanai's i guess like thought process around our relationship traditional but that's fine like i think that that's why we're so good together and our our focus has always been our marriage and not a wedding you know and i think that's what so many people miss the point of is it's like about the day and how big and especially with TikTok like I think over the last two years even with like specific celebrities that have blown up because of their wedding it has become like something I think other than what it is really meant to be and I think like you guys embody that exact type of partnership you want to find where it's not a day it's about the journey because especially like did you guys have the same vision of where your life would be like forget just the business but like the life and the world that you guys have created, has that always been aligned?

9:55Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, we like we always we always knew what we wanted. We've both been really big dreamers and we were not people who settle. That's the thing. And so it was always sky's the limit. We've always pushed ourselves. And so, I mean, I feel like we're just scratching the surface even right now. Like there's so much left that we want to do. So if I remember I asked you when we were in London a few weeks ago for Barney's wedding, Like I was, it was kind of getting to me of like getting in my head and like people just like even posting, I was saying like, it's hard sometimes when I haven't answered like so many people's text messages and I'm like posting and you looked at me and you were like, fuck it.

10:32Like, this is your job. And I just think like that mentality of how sure you've always been and how ambitious and like you both share that. Like, have you guys always been that way or has it brought it out in each other since you met each other? I think Nish and I bring out the best in each other. And for sure, you know, I think as you mature and as you put yourself in a more and more healthy dynamic, I think your confidence just continues to grow. And so I think that for me, Nish has been like a very foundational rock in my life. And so he's just always encouraged me even in moments where I've maybe felt a little bit shaky to just, you know, be like sure of myself.

11:12And so those things, like worrying about, oh, like if I do this, what are people perceiving of me? Like I feel like I've just been able to shed it more and more over time, I would say. For sure. And I think what's really cool is that like SIF's been that in a different way. And so you know how different people are inherently different. So for some people, lying comes really easy to them. And so they'll just lie blatantly, right? So like, for example, for me, doing something that I don't like, it really irks me. So I've just never been that kind of person to do that. But for other people, they might do that because they feel an obligation to someone else or whatever they're doing.

11:47So I think when you hang out with someone else to – for someone else, which seems so easy to do that kind of stuff. Yeah. It's like, okay, you learn from that really easily. You know what I mean? It seems like you guys have always been on the same page. Like going back to the wedding, it's like you saved up$484 ,000 before you guys started your business. And that so easily could have been put into like this extravagant thing. but you guys have always been aligned that it's like, this is what we're doing. So I guess like when you took that money and you like took a huge bet on yourself and you were like, we're going to start this business.

12:18Like, did you already have this like set? Like this is my roles and responsibilities and this is my roles and responsibilities or has it just like naturally formed? I think it's really naturally formed. Yeah. I think we, right from the beginning though, we knew what we were both good at. So obviously at the beginning you're doing everything. And then you get to a point where you're like, wait, this is a really poor use of our time. And like, we don't need to both be doing every single thing that's ridiculous and so I think we were both hyper aware of what we were each good at and so over time it's like those things we've kind of gone into each of our silos and also like there's obviously things we work on together but I think that just realizing becoming hyper aware of what we're good at and you know there have been times where I've been like oh like should I be on this call or this or what whatever and Nish has been like why would you it's a waste of your time if you're sitting on this with me when you could be using your brain for something else and so it's just become you've become more and more comfortable with that over time as well yeah for sure and i think you know initially obviously there's certain things that matter to both of us a lot but it's really crazy because you know there used to be a time where i used to be able to i used to sit on marketing calls and she used to sit on on like finance calls and then i was just like this is the biggest waste of time yeah like why are you in this call why am I on that call I'm adding zero value you're adding zero value here and so we're very naturally kind of flown into very specific roles that we're now part of and honestly I think this works even better because we're not overlapping on things that we don't need to overlap on and you're working on complete different parts of the business so it just like makes it even better do you guys ever disagree on like big decisions yeah 100 % do you an example of one I mean like product product is the one that we work on I was gonna say like that seems like the biggest overlap, right?

14:01Okay. So like, have you guys ever really fundamentally disagreed about a decision? Oh my God. Literally all the time. How do you guys work that out? We debated out and it's funny because I think initially when team members start and they see that they're like a little bit like shocked, but we always, I think we lead by example when we say that, like, you have to debate to get to the right answer. And so we encourage that same thing from our team as well that like if one of us is suggesting something that is inherently like not aligned with goals of the business or whatever then they should also have the ability to debate us on that so for sure like i mean it was even last week we like got into like a very heated debate on something for sure but the thing is maggie like we debate in the sense like we're actually like arguing like we're very intensely but very um uh articulately arguing about why we think the opposite thing and then what that forces us to do is it asks you like okay and then what and then what and then what so you're thinking of almost like the 10th order consequence of each decision yeah and so like we're thinking through that we're arguing through it and it's like very heated but I genuinely think is we get the best decision because we care so much about it you know what I mean I agree I think it's so interesting because I don't really think people understand the size and the velocity of the business that you guys have built.

15:22You talked to me last year about potentially doing 20 million of revenue in 2024. Did you hit that number? Yeah, way more than that. So are you comfortable to share the size of Array for 2025? Yeah, so we're gonna do over 100 million dollars this year. And, and we started the business in 2020. And so in 2020, it was a million dollar business. And now it's over 100 million dollar business. Can you repeat that? So in 2020, it was a million dollar business we started in march of 2020 in december of 2020 we did the first million dollars it's 2025 we're gonna do over 100 million dollars how does that feel it feels absolutely surreal yeah like there's like we i know honestly because we reflect back on these things and it feels absolutely surreal it's it's actually insane because i remember at one point it was around the 20 mark where we were like okay we see the clear path to 50 but we don't see the clear path to 100 and then we saw all of a sudden it was like a series of things and then we were like we see the path to 100 and now it's like we clearly see the path way beyond that so it's a very surreal thing that happens i i don't even know how to explain it in words but like i remember when a million was a big deal to us of course like doing a million dollars in your first year of business is extremely hard to do.

16:39Like, but 5Xing that, like in that time period in five years is, is honestly unheard of. Like Courtney, my boyfriend has made like over 300 personal investments. And when he heard your numbers, like he turned to me and was like, you do not see that. Like he's been investing for 15, 20 years. Like he sees that very, very rarely. What do you think it has been that has gotten you to that point? I honestly think it's because we're like, we seek the truth, like always. And so every question we're like, okay, so what do people actually want? You know, how do you tell that though? Because so many people that are listening want to start a wellness brand, right?

17:21Like VMS supplements is probably the most like sought after category. It's repeatable. It's something that people do in a ritual every single day. Like it's the biggest trend right now is the wellness industry but i think it again you guys are that exception to the rule like i think what people are listening is like how do you get to the truth how do you keep finding the right answer time and time again like what is the pattern of that honestly i think like we always ask the question of like what problem are we solving like that's where we're starting because a lot of it's exactly what you said maggie a lot of people we talk to they're like i want to get into vms because the category is really it's like it's a hot category it's not good enough yeah that's not why you start the company in VMS.

18:01It's not that this is the hot category. It's the hot category for certain reasons, but like even within VMS, like of the thousands and thousands of companies, there's only very few really good ones. And so I think we're always asking the question of like what problem are we solving, especially with the products. So when talking about products, I think you guys have always been on trend with like MB1, constipation, tone, below, creatine tone. I put that in my newsletter, like for all the reasons, but you guys have always been ahead of it. so when you guys are designing your products and you're looking at like the problem you're not looking at like what is the trend right now you're looking how does it start yeah it's too late when I like really need people to understand that once you're seeing something and it's trendy it's too late but how are you always ahead of the trends if I okay so there's two things I think that one of the things that I do in the company is oftentimes trend forecasting I don't I can't explain to you how I have a premonition about these things, but I do.

18:58And then we always back that up with data. So we're looking at what are the studies that are coming out? Like, is there an increase in volume of studies? Clinical studies. Clinical studies, correct. And then we'll obviously like look at ingredient trends as well, because that then tells us, okay, like if there's an ingredient trend, does that tell us about macro trend and what people are looking for? Like what problem they want solved? We are also talking to our customers. we do like really intense surveys and focus groups as well. So I would say that I get a gut feeling. And then after that, or like any of us get a gut feeling.

19:28Okay. And then after that, it's like, you know, triangulated with heavy, heavy data. And so I feel like that would be like our secret, which is that it's, it's both a combination of gut feeling along with like a lot of data to back it up as well. So we're doing the work to follow our gut and just like our instincts as founders. But But then at the same time, it's not just like, oh, I feel like it. Like there is, I have to be able to. But can I be honest? Like, you know, like I feel like even if you didn't do all the data piece of it, is that I feel like it, which holds like 90 % of the percentage.

20:01Yeah, it really is. And is it both of your gut instincts or it's SIFS? It's actually SIFS specifically. Like SIFS is really, really, really good at that. She's really good at that. And so what she will do is she'll be like, okay, Nish, I have a gut feeling about these five things. And I'll be like, no, it's going to be that thing within the five things. because like we just have an idea based on the data piece of it obviously but sith always knows so i feel like that can be and i have a really good gut intuition as well like the psychic that we see said that i'm kind of like a witch but it's sometimes really distracting because you get senses or you get like oh this is over there you guys have built a hundred million dollar business off of how many products eight eight yes max yeah you guys have built a hundred million dollar business off of eight products.

20:43Like what I see is such a failure of new entrepreneurs today is like they just get so distracted and put out so much stuff to the market. How have you guys created new news with eight products in five years to get to a hundred million dollars? I think you have to be so intentional. And the thing is that each product we release, we know it's a blockbuster product. Okay. Like it's like a hit every time. It's a hit. That's what we're betting on. And honestly, like this is, this is very much a niche thing where he has expectations for how each product should do. And that's either a failure or a success.

21:19And so what we pin ourselves to is like something that is going to hit the market. It's going to bring in a certain amount of revenue per year. And that is the sign of success. And so we take our time with our products. We do three max four releases in a year. It takes us two plus years to formulate every product and best rest assured that when it's going to market, it's not just a rinky dink, like one ingredient thing that's going to top up like a million dollars in revenue. That's not our business model. It's like we are solving the big shit that people want solved. And I feel like the marketing evolution is growing as well.

21:57So I guess like it's an interesting time to be talking to you guys because I think you guys have gone from like this scrappy kind of get shit done like put things together to now you're hiring Victoria's Secret supermodels to be the face of creatine which was like so smart because it's like every woman is so afraid that creatine is going to bulk them up give them water you guys choose like we need to go big with this one. HSR girls are all about drinkable skincare in 2025. Yes drinkable. This is not just another step in your skincare routine because the HSR girlies don't have time for that. This is the foundation for clear, bright, beautiful radiance.

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24:01We've built one of the most powerful communities of women at the intersection of consumer, capital, and culture. So join us with the paid version of our newsletter free for three months with the link in the show notes to claim your free offer. I guess like my question to that is sometimes I think entrepreneurs or founders specifically are best from like zero to 50. Where do you guys feel like the business is at in terms of your guys' skillset? And like, where are you best? And how are you protecting the business almost from yourselves to keep the trajectory it's on? So you know, it's really interesting, Maggie.

24:33We thought about this a lot, but Sif and I are like multi-billion dollar founders. Like, I don't think we're ever gonna run out of steam. And also we want to build like massive, massive businesses. So I don't think a business is ever going to get too big for us to handle. And so anything, you know, when we build these businesses, whenever it grows and grows and grows, it actually feels more and more akin to our type of business. And so the bigger it gets, the more we feel empowered to be able to run it. Because I just think we're both really meant to have kind of be building and operating businesses aside.

25:08And so we're never going to hire people above us to be able to do that because we feel so good at it. But thankfully, what we are doing is we're just hiring better and better and better talent every single day. And so right now, like we have such an important kind of mindset and the way we tackle hiring and the kind of people that we are bringing on to the business that like every single person on our team is like top, top tier. And the way we operate, the way we do certain things in the business, it's a combination of us, like me learning from all the other pieces that I've worked at. And then half of them have been horrible.

25:43Half of them have been really, really good. I'm laughing because Nish and I worked at a company together and like had very similar experiences. But let's not put it on blast. So keep going. and so no but like you know at this point it's like okay if you're going to be a 500 million dollar business we're hiring that kind of employee today right and so so that's kind of the process is in terms of hiring at least but basically what i'm getting from this this is why i fucking love the podcast is like i'm just so fired up listening to you guys like you guys are just the anomaly and one of the things i've learned about your special sauce is the team structure it is fundamentally something I have never seen.

26:25And let me just try to explain what I view from the outside. And then I really want to dig into the why you guys have built an environment where it's like this perfect mix of friends meets boundaries, meets creativity, meets really hard workforce. You guys party with your team. You go to Coachella with your team. You take them to Tulum and dance on tables with your team. They are like an extension of you where I feel like if Alexa is representing the brand, it's like you train her to be that way. But like you guys didn't just hire like a players that had come from like the brands you aspire to.

26:59You actually like trained these people from almost like early stage of their career. Part of the thing that kills businesses is culture, right? Like people. So what are things that people can do that are going to inspire them to have a similar culture with the boundaries that you guys have also done at Array? honestly I think the very first thing is like to win because our team loves winning they like being number one they like seeing results and so for I think getting all your people surrounded and like really aligned with like the mission and like what you want to do and be like okay guys this is the goal this is where we're going and like this is what every single one of you is kind of a big part every single week on a Monday like chant you're like this is what we're doing like is there like a tribal thing no no honestly the fact that we like to win you guys are very competitive yeah we're like it's either number one or nothing like if we are not number one it doesn't get number two is not good enough and everyone has that same mentality and so I think we have said it so often and like it's not just us by the way like we'll be on calls and someone else will be leading the call from our team and they're like well you know is this really the best you know And so everyone has that mentality.

28:11And so I think it's not just Nish and I. I feel like now it flows, like even to the new team members. Everyone knows that winning is our number one philosophy. Yeah, it's also really interesting because I think one of your philosophies, and I don't know your like brand values or whatever, but from the outside in, I actually think you guys were the first people that really started treating your customers like influencers. This was like, I don't know if this was from five years ago, but at least I noticed it three years ago. And I think brands have really followed suit. Why did you guys decide to make that decision?

28:40And do you still, as you grow and you bring in like the faces that you just brought in for tone, like how do you balance working with celebrities talent versus treating your customers like the influencers? Your customer is an influencer. Okay. And I'm just going to give you a very like basic example that everyone can relate to. You can see an influencer post about a product, but if your sister tells you about that product, you're going to make that purchase immediately. Okay. Your sister tells you, I bought this really good lip gloss. What are you going to do? You're going to go buy it. So if you are spending all your marketing dollars on just the influencers and the celebrities and completely neglecting your customer, that's where you lose out.

29:20So for us, right at the beginning, we said that our customers should be treated like influencers. And so when we started the brand, influencers and customers would be getting the same packaging. And we wanted the customer to have that same unboxing experience that an influencer would have because these are the people who are actually spending money on your brand. And more than that, they can actually give you the best feedback. And so if we treat our customers like influencers, they're the ones who are going to go tell all their friends and they're the ones who are going to be the most real with us.