Mindhunters

26:40And that's a cohesive unit. Nope. Nope. Everybody does guns all the time. But if you are to treat the movie as truth, it is revealed that Johnny Lee Miller, the whole reason why he has done this is, yes, he is a serial killer who has infiltrated the FBI's serial killer profiling program to figure out who the most worthy person is for him to challenge. And that is her. So he's like, oh, wouldn't it be the best coup for me? Like, I don't want to just I don't want to just deal with it. I want to find the best of the best. So this has been for him a long time. Does he say that? Because that's that's interesting, because I could not for the life of me figure out what the deal was.

27:31He says something like that. But are you saying, Paul, that he he wanted sort of the most challenging prey? Yes. OK, so here's what's so crazy about him that even the fact that he penetrated the FBI. Now, both of his parents were murdered in front of him or it seems like both. Well, we will know they were murdered by him later. But but when we meet him, it seems that they were just murdered. That alone to me at 10 years old, that alone to me, it's like I kind of want the FBI flagging that on some. Right. You would think at a certain point, someone would be able to say like, hey, why was his parents murdered?

28:11Let's just look into that a little bit more. But maybe he's very, very good. I don't know. You know what I wish for? I wish that he had been the one who killed her little sister. Yes. Well, there you have something. Yeah. And he put Clifton Collins Jr. in the wheelchair. And what if he had connections to everybody that they didn't know about? Or like the idea that they float for LL Cool J's character is that, oh, are you doing this as revenge because you didn't pass the exam? Like, you're trying to get back. Like, did you flunk out? The FBI didn't want you. Like, I couldn't figure out Johnny Lee Miller's, you know, it's just not enough time is given to it at the end.

28:52Like, what? Does he also change an accent? He does change accents. I was, his accent was so slight that I was like, is this? I couldn't quite figure out if he. Well, I mean, it's strange because he is a British person. Yes. His character is American. And then when it is revealed, he is Southern. Yeah. When the final twist comes, he starts to affect like a weird Southern drawl that wasn't there before. And I was like, I don't know what this is trying to tell me. There were notes of that Southern drawl early on, but boy, does it come and it goes. I thought it was a different voice. I thought he was like, this is the real me now.

29:31No, it was sort of there at one point, but he's playing fast and loose with that accent. I was also sort of amazed early on, and maybe this is just a product of like movies used to feature like four white men on a team and no one blinked an eye. But there were so many of them and they all looked so similar to me. I genuinely couldn't keep track of them. Agreed. I was happy when some of them got killed at the beginning because I was like, I don't know that guy's deal. Well, but I was upset that the first person who dies is Christian Slater because I'm like, well, I understand who that is. But the guy who is like, then there's a gentleman who is, that's Clifton Collins.

30:06who is in a wheelchair. So I'm like, okay, that at least gives me another marker. And then Johnny Lee Miller's American, and I know who he is because I know him as an actor, but then there's another British guy who is the guy whose head just pops right off of his body. What happens there? When they all wake up from the coffee. He looked like a robot. I thought it was going to be revealed that he was a Westworld robot because you saw strings in there that looked like... Oh, God, Paul. I would love it. Can I ask something about Christian Slater's death? Why? So he's being sprayed with... Step out of the way.

30:38Yeah. What? Liquid nitrogen. Nitrous. Nitrogen. Yeah. Some sort of... It's a T2 situation. Did you just say step out of the way, Jason? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So step out of the way. It was as though he couldn't move, which I did have a question about. Like, is it paralyzing you somehow? Immediately paralyzing. Immediately paralyzing you. And then my next question is, like, would the rest of the team did not move? To also just take that container, take that blaster, turn it? Everybody watches all the traps happen from the beginning until they end. They don't try and intercede in any traps execution.

31:15They just watch it as if they are trapped and they're not. But here's the thing. That is one canister of liquid nitrogen that's shooting at his ankles. Now, yes, he could have easily just stepped back, stepped out of the way. Done the top of his body down. Right. I don't even want to get into the fact that that is completely impossible. That would never happen. But the movie also posits the idea that if it starts at your ankles, it would freeze your body up to your head. In seconds. In seconds. And crack you like a doll. He breaks like an icicle that drops onto the floor. He breaks in like so many pieces after being sprayed.

32:01I mean, if you've not seen the movie, imagine like a birthday party helium canister is just blowing. It's not like in T2 where he falls into or whatever, a vat of nitrogen or whatever. This is a spray of nitrogen that freezes him and he's able to talk. He's like, stay where you are. He's still giving commands. And I'm like, stop talking. Take a step to your right. Take a baby step to your right. Or someone just move that or turn it off, please. Now, here's, because honestly, I have to say, there was a part of me watching this, because so many of them are witnessing the traps and just watching the traps happen.

32:42There was a part of me that's like, oh my gosh, that's the horror of this movie. That's the scariest part. Yeah, right. You couldn't even do anything. Yes, is that when confronted with someone in pain, someone suffering, an event happening before your very eyes, like people will freeze and watch and not intervene. That's horrifying. June, we've seen that numerous times on Scare Tactics. The premise of Scare Tactics, the horror prank show, is like they put people in these situations and they often do as they are told or freeze. But I think the whole point of this program is at the level they're at, they would have already learned to push through that immediate freeze.

33:29They would have already learned the skill sets and tools to not just be observers to these tragedies, but to, in fact, either intercede or get to it before it happens. Well, the opening scene is that. I mean, the opening scene is saying, hey, guys, don't freeze, be smarter. And yet they aren't. And I thought that his death was so bad in the sense that he didn't do anything. I was like, oh, clearly he's the serial killer. Like he has set up some sort of contraption to make it look like his body broke into glass. Now, I will say this. You know, I know that you both love interior design. And I would love to show you that if you like interior design, you can actually purchase a broken Christian Slater.

34:12And I think, Scott, can you pop that up there? this is uh this is the body it comes on a special mount it's on an auction house right now oh my god yeah the legs uh are separate you can you can do the whole thing you can yeah you can get in there part of his face is peeling off uh but again that's a great centerpiece for a living that's the kind of thing that i feel like we should use our money to buy and then have it in the how did this get made house i would love because i think a lot of people don't know that we all live together now We all live together now in a content house that's kind of just about how did this get made.

34:46I have become obsessed on Instagram. There is a wax museum that is auctioning off every one of their wax figures and they're pretty conservative. Like, they're not expensive to a certain degree where it's like all of a sudden I'm like, can I get this Tom Cruise? Can I get this Conan O 'Brien? This Jay Leno. The Jay Leno one. The Jay Leno one was the one that I was so close to. Why? Why is the Jay Leno one the one you want? Because I think anyone would love a little Jay Leno in the house. Wait, it's not little, though, is my guess. No, he's a life-size. It's life-size, yes. Because then you know what's going to happen.

35:24And June, this is for you. If you allow Paul to buy the wax figure of Jay Leno, he's then going to start saying, hey, I need an antique fire truck to go with the Jay Leno doll. I'm going to have to get a lot of cars. I really sometimes I think about it like if I wasn't in his life what his living order I mean it would just be you know it would just yes he would be living in a house of horrors well especially when you see like if you can get a Jay Leno for a thousand bucks why not like like that's that's what life has opened without you June I feel like the 15 foot skeleton that comes out at Halloween is out year round and is perhaps inside the house we we well Well, we have seen many a time.

36:08Now, I will say, and I will take all the slings and arrows you want to throw at me, but that skeleton was brought to this home by one person. That was my idea. But I will say that that skeleton is very static. And it has a point of view. And it's very beautiful. And our neighbors have to have one. So that's a different thing. And I think that's a beautiful spook and a beautiful scare. Yes, agreed. What I worry about with Paul. I want a shirt that says a beautiful spook and it's a big skeleton over somebody's edge. But what I really worry about with Paul, and it's honestly scary to think about, is just what if given no boundaries.

36:48Yeah. You know, what he would come up with. What items, what figurines, what stickers, what globes. It is tricky for me. What kind of, I don't even, I can't even imagine. Oh, just the kinds of auctions that he would be registering. for and what they would be selling. I think what's always hard for me is when Paul comes home with things framed because it's like, it's like, it's really hard. Cause I'm like, well, God, it's already framed. And I have not done this for a long time. You haven't done it for a long time. Very long time. Yeah. I've been, I've been, yeah, it's great. It's really hard. Cause it's like, it's framed.

37:25And so when something gets framed, it feels like it's got to go up. I know exactly the piece that you're talking about. And, you know, in retrospect, those are the things I would get now. I mean, times change. Like the most chilling. So to you, June, the most chilling words out of Paul's mouth are, I'm having the art hangers come tomorrow without you knowing why or for what to hang what? Listen, I think at this point we've been together for so long. Like, I don't fear that happening anymore, you know, but we definitely we definitely had a transitional period. There were moments. There were moments.

37:59Now back to this film, Mindhunters. Can I ask you guys a question? Because like we've said, this is a Rennie Harlan movie who is like a real auteur of this schlocky era. And then, you know, like we said, Val Kilmer, LL Cool J, Johnny Lee Miller. There's recognizable names. It's like it's got a vibe that it's clearly expensive. They clearly spent money. I've never heard of this movie.

38:27Jason Mantzoukas:Never. Never, ever. When I clicked it up, I was like, I don't recognize any of these images, any of this art. I don't know what this is. You know what I was so disappointed by when it started and even being in that bar scene, I was like, this is right up my alley. Yeah, right. Like, I love going to be fun. This is going to be so much fun. And I was so excited. And I love the idea of they're all trying to out profile each other. And like, I was just like, oh, finally, something for me, something for the girls, you know. Oh, but then, boy, did it devolve. Well, it really is. It's the kind of movie that structurally needs the team to come together, but they never do.

39:07So it's as if the movie never starts. It's just that people just start dying. Nobody ever knows why. Nobody ever... It also doesn't do that thing, which some movies do, which is let us, the audience, in on information that the main characters don't have. so that we know the trouble they're in before they do. They don't let that happen. It's pure discovery and chaos. And then there's all these threads where, you know, when the island is brought up in the Outer Banks, Croatan or whatever. Croatoan. Croatoan, whatever that was. Yep. And then, first of all, what the fuck was that? That doesn't even fold back in.

39:50It was just to me. You would think it would be important information dump, and it's not. It doesn't matter, ultimately. Well, that whole movie doesn't. Yeah, it's not why he's doing this. He's doing this to find the perfect... It has nothing, no bearing on the rest of the plot. But, again, when it's mentioned, I'm like, oh, okay, this is the movie that we're getting revenge or figuring out a mystery of what happened on this island? okay but you can't like give us you can't give us busy work because if you're going to take a moment to explain an island and a and a mysticism around it or a story like we're like well that's important it's it's not like life like you know it's like well every bit of information here is going to be building to a larger point which again why set up christian slater as the creepy guy yeah and then also you kill him in such a way that it's like it would have to be insane for him to even have survived oh i used a robot i did this or so it's like a very or if he had just not been standing exactly where he was standing that's the other thing is like these traps are it's like the game mousetrap they are so random and but require such specific situations to unfold perfectly to the second that is just preposterous like just people moving through the world would not fall into these rhythms and this exact setups.

41:21But I guess the thing that I keep on coming back to is even like, where's the mystery?

41:25Jason Mantzoukas:Like kill people in a way where they're not definitely dead. When you get like three harpoons to the chest, yeah, you're dead. So you start taking people off the table in a way where it's like, oh, I don't know. Because I thought at one point when Clifton Collins like crawls into the freezer room, By the way, they do collect Christian Slater's body and put it like in like they they morgue it up. I'm like, at this point, do we need to collect all the pieces? Like, I feel like we should be solving this. Like something's going on here. Like we don't have time to get the gurney, to load up the gurney, to bring it into the thing.

42:00It's like it seems like he's going to be frozen for a bit. I guess you're right. He was frozen. So that's why didn't Clifton Collins just stay in the free. Like, here's the other thing is once everybody is so suspect of each other and once people are really dying, everybody should just hide. Oh, my God. Why did he get out of the freezer? Everybody just go hide on your own. He was told to hide. Wait it out. Yes. Wait it out. But the thing that actually really made me insane, and I wanted to throw the remote at the very end when LL Cool J and Sarah are there. And there is a helicopter in sight, but they've just, you know, they made it out.

42:40And she says, when do you know the situation is cleared, resolved? Yeah, basically like don't party until you're out. When do you know the situation is cleared? And they both say to each other on the ride home. Yeah.

42:54Jason Mantzoukas:And yet, but they're not on the ride home yet. They're not on the ride home. They're not on it. One more twist. Yeah. There's going to be another twist. The chopper just blew up. Yeah. They're not in there. Now, was that intentional to think like, hey, I didn't think so, Jason. I didn't think so. I don't think the movie's smart enough. Well, but I think that movie. It really made me angry. I was like, how fucking dare you? You don't even need that helicopter to take off. Just put them in there somehow. Yep. Right. The same day you're shooting the helicopter coming to the island, just shoot that other scene too.

43:22Like the two of them leaving off. Well, now, wait, so now you're just the line producer? I'm just trying to make the day. We've got the chopper for one day. We're going to do in the morning. Because of Southern exposure, we're going to be looking. Oh, my God. Paul just wanted to do the one-liner for this movie. Are you giving us day out of dates for this? What's going on? And this is the problem that I have now. Not only am I looking for that, I'm like, but why didn't they do it? They could have done it. They had it. Were they running over that day? when I start to look at when I look at it as a line producer I really that's another level of movie watching like I do think of that often like well how did they how did they get over there

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47:18Jason Mantzoukas:See Mint Mobile for details. One of the things that I think could have been a theme for the movie that is not, and it is actually the theme of the movie, is after the cold open when Christian Slater and Catherine Morris are downloading with Val Kilmer And he's like, basically, here's how you fucked it up. This and that and this and that. You missed this clue. You missed that clue. You took longer than anybody else. Blah, blah, blah. He's dressing them down. She's like, I don't understand. What could we have done to save the girls? Right. And he says, nothing. Girls are already dead. They couldn't have been saved.

47:56This test was to get you used to not winning. Right. And I was like, oh, whoa, wait a minute. I know. I struggled with that as well. That's what this is about? This is about not winning the best. Okay, so there's something, and I think I rewound it and watched it twice because there was something very disturbing about, and really unsettling about Val Kilmer's worldview on crime. Because I think what he was saying is, hey, someone gets murdered, you find out, just a regular old murder, you'll find out in 48 hours if you can get them. But if you can't, then it's done. If you can't, then it's done.

48:34You'll never find them. It's very unlikely. Put that over there. They're they're never going to get that's never getting solved, which I was like, OK. And then he's like, but if it's a serial killer, his point of view almost seem to be you want them to actually kill someone. Because then you can start building a profile. Start building a profile. But they never, ever. And it almost seems like you want more and more people to die so that that profile gets clear. I think that's the kind of shit that LL Cool J is investigating. And as he should.

49:08Jason Mantzoukas:And by the way, then that would also make Val Kilmer the best killer for this thing. He should be a serial killer. That's the whole thing. Because what this movie devolves to is this moment. The least exciting, I'm pricking my finger to get blood out. I was like, what is it? I'm watching a montage of people like, plink, put a little blood in the thing. Terrible. Now, as a line producer, how quickly do you think they were able to shoot all that? Oh, you could bring that out real quick. You could bring that really quick. You actually, yeah, you bring it. You shoot that on another stage while they're doing, while they're setting up some earth.

49:41Oh, that's a skeleton turret. That's it. Yeah. Do you guys think on this island, okay, this is an island, a remote island that is used as a training facility for the Navy. How did all these cats get there? Well, I feel like cats are on the island, right? Isn't that like a thing that Alcatraz has a bunch of cats? I think cats. Oh, does it? Okay. I think, yeah. I think there is something about cats. When they wake up in the morning and the cat is dead hung. Oh, I didn't like that. And there's a badge stuck into it. I was like, that's the moment that I was like, this crew needs a jokester. Okay. You know, because I was like, what rank is that cat?

50:15I didn't know the cat was one of the agents. Is that the cat's badge? I do want to also just talk about that from the point of view of it doesn't make any fucking sense because Sarah is brushing her teeth in the bathroom and the lights are off. And then when the lights come on, the cat is literally hanging behind her. So I don't even understand how she approached the sink without seeing a cat hanging from the ceiling. Why don't why don't you have to have brushing your teeth? Just have her walk into the room and see the cat like, ah, like, why are we? Everything is everything is needlessly stepped out.

50:51You know what would have been cool? If the Navy, knowing that the FBI was coming, had also set a bunch of traps. oh interesting wait so you're saying okay so i just want to get this straight because fun traps right so basically the navy is like hey you motherfuckers kick us out of our our island once a month or once a year so we're gonna sabotage it for you on top of your sabotage here's the way i would rewrite it so there's this like real kind of rivalry between the navy and the FBI. Got it. Who's going to use the islands. Classic rivalry. Classic rivalry. And so they've set up all of these. It's heated, you could say.

51:31Yes. It's a heated rivalry. They've set up all of these traps, but they're fun. Right? Okay. They're sort of more like pranks, but they keep on derailing our crew because they don't know which is which. Right. So it could be like a pranker or a serial killer. And then the Navy ends up being able to figure out that they're in trouble because some of their traps either didn't go off the way they expected it or something happened, which like the Navy is, by the way, actually, as I'm saying this, who was watching those cameras that were on? Val Kilmer. But no, but he didn't take off the, didn't he take off the island?

52:10Or you guys, he didn't take off the island. That's what they reveal is that he stayed on the island and with other FBI agents and was running the op until, presumably, Johnny Lee Miller goes, finds them, kills them all, and strings him up because Johnny Lee Miller is the puppet master. Or the puppeteer. But at the same point in this, okay, sorry. At the same point in this, it never happened. It never even started. And so his crew was immediately killed. And I guess the question is, so when was his crew immediately killed? That night? Wouldn't it have been fun to cut into the control room and get to see Val Kilmer holding court and being like, let's do this.

52:54Let's cue that. Let's set up this. Let's do that. For a little bit of that beginning of act two, have there be like a little, you could still believe, oh, wait a minute, maybe Val is the big bad. Yeah. And he's, you know, because the team thinks he flew off the island, but we, the audience, know he's still there. Oh, he's talking with them. And maybe this is his thing. Maybe he's trying to eliminate them. Maybe he thinks they're coming for his job or maybe he's just lost his mind or any of the things that you cast Val Kilmer to represent should be present. But in fact, none of it is none of the kooky, crazy Val Kilmer stuff.

53:28He just gives a speech at the beginning and that's it. You know, none of the fun antics of the Navy. No, no. And no Navy pranks. And so, but again, I guess what I'm looking at too is like from, again, not to look at it from a line producer's point of view, but if I'm a military line producer, I'm like, oh, we just wasted all this money. Like, because clearly, Val Kilmer had a lot. I think military line producers love wasting all the money. All right. Well, I mean, I'm just looking at it from a bunch. I'm like, this guy made me rent out this island and they didn't even get there. All the profilers are dead.

54:00Now I got to do it again? See, for me, I'm looking at this from a wardrobe department. Okay, got it. And I'm like, you know what? We could have differentiated who a lot of these people were with wardrobe changes. You know, like have someone be in like a Mets jersey. I would love a Mets. Something that is truly identifiable so that you can really start to tell some of these guys apart. Well, because you want a little bit of like personality in these guys. Now, at the end, I mean, they keep on blaming LL Cool J. It can't be more clear that it's not LL Cool J, right? Like, he passes every test, but yet Sarah beats the shit out of him.

54:39But wait, why does, and I may be revealing my own dumbness here,

54:45Jason Mantzoukas:why does LL Cool J shoot that one guy in the, like, he shoots Johnny Lee Miller in the street? He does. I didn't understand why. I didn't either. Okay, oh, thank God, that makes me feel good. Unless LL Cool J has figured it out. if LL Cool J has figured it out he thinks I'm I'm killing the killer but then you would need a moment when she starts beating the shit out of him like hey I figured it out it's not me it's him and he starts to prove it again the only profiler in the mix if he does do that but here's a question I have though is she so she is able to find out that LL Cool J is not the killer because she puts that special like blue light on his hands.

55:31Which is, by the way, not profiling. Powder. On the clock. Right, and that powder from, but the powder she uses is from the writing on the backs of their jackets, which really frustrated me because they've all touched those jackets. Correct. And not only that, not only that, Johnny Lee Miller, when he picks up his hands and it's revealed that the liquid or the whatever is on his hands, It's all over his hands. Right. It's glowing. How did he not notice? I don't know. He must have been, the clock must have been slick with the liquid. Like just grabbing at it every level. Well, so, and when did she turn back this clock?

56:10I mean, I don't know. What was the cigarette made out of, by the way? Oh, it's got acid in it. They say it had acid in it. I mean, but the amount of acid. How did he insert acid into a cigarette in, like, minutes? And by the way, not even like he's always in he's put so much acid in the cigarette that if the if the cigarette touched the ground, it burned through. So that would mean that if she touched it to take it out, her fingers would have just melted off. Right. Yes. How did it how did the cigarette exist in a pack of cigarettes without the acid just dripping straight through the paper? Activated by the lighter.

56:49I guess I was also thinking the whole time, like as soon as shit started to hit the fan at 10 a.m. I was like, sweetie, go have a cigarette. Yeah. Like, it is not that, like, please, fuck the patch. Like, go have your cigarette. You are about to die. Wow, okay, so you're in that. I was also, these are, some of this stuff, too, is if this movie was at all fun, I wouldn't be looking so critically at it. You know, like, I wouldn't, I would be willing to be like, oh, and I loved it when she lit the cigarette and it was acid and she melted into the thing because that caused this to happen. It was so fun and it really paid this off or whatever.

57:24No, because it seems so random, each thing seems so random. And I know that it's every kill is tailored to that person's particular weakness. Hers is cigarettes and this person's is panic. And he's trying to push everybody's buttons. But it's not really there. It's not satisfying in any way, you know? Well, I think that, you know, look, does this movie work? Absolutely not. Is it well acted? Probably not to the degree that I need it to be. because I'm not ever feeling, the only time I felt tense in this entire movie and not frustrated was when the moment when Christian Slater came up to the car window.

58:01I was like, uh-oh, cool. What are we going to see? That's the only tension moment in the movie because the rest of it is really like kind of bare knuckle brawling. It's like, there's no, like, you know, that famous scene in One Battle After Another where, you know, they're doing a blood test. So cinematic, so cool. Love it. And it's like the same thing. Benny Harlan, Paul Thomas Anderson. But it's like, how did you make the most exciting detective moment is a machine telling you who is the person. And guess what? The machine's wrong. Yeah. And the machine is. Wait a second. How? How did he get the machine to be wrong?

58:37Because he put blood under her fingernails. Right, but he put blood. He moved the blood, I guess. It's really. Wow, okay. It's unsatisfying in a way that like, you know, So when you pull at the threads of the reveal of at the end of usual suspects, you know, and it's like, oh, wow, he really did all of these things. And you kind of get glimpses of all of the ways in which he kind of was able to do it. It all kind of falls into place. None of that is present here. No, like it's a it's a big reveal without any supporting data or any supporting imagery that helps us understand how Johnny Lee Miller, how and why.

59:20I guess we're meant to believe he's just wants to kill. He wants the best, the best person. He wants to kill. He wants a good opponent. Wouldn't it be Val Kilmer? You would think. Right, he seems to know the most. But I think that I was also really shocked that as soon as they suspected someone of being the, what do they call it, unsub? Oh, yeah, unsub. By the way, the original title of the film, unsub. Unsubscribe? Oh, my. I mean, by the way, they're like, oh, yeah, the studio thought that Mindhunters is better. You think unsub? What are you going to say this week? Unsub? Unsub. Unsub. Unsub.

1:00:00Is it a submarine movie? Unsub actually makes me believe every bit of bad writing that we have or having a problem with. If you, after writing a great script, are like, unsub. Like, no. No. That level, you didn't do it. You didn't do enough work. Okay. But if they all, as soon as they accuse someone of being the unsub, the entire crew immediately pulls their gun out on them. And it looks like they're about to shoot them. And I'm like, I know you are like a member of law enforcement on some level. Like, how about detain them? How about arrest them? How about take a set of handcuffs and handcuff them?

1:00:39Like, I guess they do that with Alicol J. But I'm like, it seems like the immediate response is you have to die now. Yes. Immediately. Like, everybody panics all the time. They are panicked. They are. And they are meant to be the elite. And at no point are they like, whoa, whoa, whoa. We are the best of the best. We need to get our act together and work together to solve this problem and get out as a group. And in fact, it truly is everyone for themselves. Everyone is acting so weirdly, selfishly. They're not a good team. And maybe if we rewatched it, you would see Johnny Lee Miller sowing discord or something like that.

1:01:22But it's just not there. Can I just say this? if I was going to go back in the movie, the only thing I would be watching is Johnny Lee Miller's jacket. Because clearly he's held everything in his jacket. His jacket is, oh, I got remotes, I got transistors. Like, he would be buzzing. He is wearing, like, I've seen this before, like, Jason, you might have seen this on some travel websites, these, like, travel jackets where you can put them on but you can also shove your computer back. So it looks like a jacket. It's got, like, harnesses and 43 pockets. Oh, wow. The charging cables. Has he killed since he was 10 years old?

1:02:00I have to imagine, yes. Yeah. Wouldn't it have been great if it turns out that he is responsible, he is the case study that Christian Slater and Catherine Morris, that house, that's his murder. The person they're studying in profiler class is, in fact, part of the class. They should have made, they should yeah they should have been the most elusive serial killer then is like let's recreate

1:02:28Jason Mantzoukas:his last crime scene let's do this um i will say this she doesn't even profile him at the end the way she gets him at the end is through thing i mean literally just fingerprinting like it's there's nothing about it she doesn't go of course you did this and you did this she just figures it out because of the the fingerprints so it's like she doesn't get a win she's not even good tactical Yeah. And he just confesses. Right. He doesn't do anything. She does. She's looking. She is looking at LL Cool J's hands, does not see the glowy substance, looks confounded. And he holds his hands up to her. To be like, dummy, dummy.

1:03:09I really believe it's me. Had he not done that, she would never have checked his fingers. I think she would have thought she was the murderer. I think she might have been like, oh, no, did I do it? She pulled her gun out on herself. I'll take myself out just in case. Oh, my God. That's the best ending. And then he's like, I killed my parents and nobody ever asked me. Nobody ever said, did you do it or why? Nobody ever asked me. He just wants to be recognized as the murderer, I guess. Again, I want to talk about this from the other perspective of saying, LL Cool J jumps on board. I'm here to monitor because he's been spending too much money on props and renting houses and fly sound effects.

1:03:51And and then what you reveal is I wanted to be with the best of the best because I am a serial killer. Like so he coordinated his appearance there because he is a master serial killer. And he's like, I needed to do a cat and mouse. And but yet there are no clues. It's really just countdown clocks. But again, it's like there's no reason to feel excited about any of these choices. Also, I just never understood where the clocks came from. If you had told me like, oh yeah, my parents died at the strike of midnight or I killed them at the strike of midnight or I was assaulted by a clock. Like, I don't know.

1:04:28I needed some. I was assaulted by a clock. Another great t-shirt. I needed something. Just imagine the scene. Why do you care about clocks so much? Imagine the scene that we never saw, which is Johnny Lee Miller packing to go to the island. Oh, it's like it's a dozen watches. It's 500 clocks. By the way, all those they're all they're all not automatic, but they're all manual clocks. So, again, if you're next to Johnny Lee Miller, all you're hearing is like he is a walking time bomb. Literally. Also, one of the traps is like, I think, three crossbows. Yes. Like that one guy gets hit with three arrows.

1:05:09Didn't use that. That are fired. I don't know from what, but I got to assume crossbows. Okay, but here's my question about that trap. The initial trap before that trap set off is someone getting electrocuted in the water. Oh, my favorite line in the whole movie. Which was?

1:05:32Like, basically, it's like this action scene where he's trying to get. and just get to reach down. Oh, my God. First of all, that was a very long sequence of watching him shoot out a cement wall. And he says that the breaker room's behind there. And as he's shooting, I'm like, is he just going to try to shoot his way in there? Are we going to be watching this for hours? I thought so, too. It was so drawn out. And then you realize, no, he's just shooting sort of like footholds. Hand and footholds so he can boulder. so he can free Solo from one room to another so he can throw the circuit breaker so that he and Clifton Collins Jr.

1:06:13won't be electrocuted. I tell you, when he started to free Solo, I was like, I can't take that anymore. But wouldn't the lights in the water flip the circuit breaker on their own? Wouldn't that surge flip the circuit breaker and turn it off? I don't know about the engineering of the... That's what I was like. I don't know. I think that that's an old building. And I feel like there's. But here's my question, though. So initially the trap was you're going to be electrocuted by the water. But then and nobody was nobody, I think, happened to be. OK. Right. But then there's a double trap. Well, there were two watches.

1:06:51Remember. Oh, I don't remember. So before that trap, before that trap, they found two. So that was. Which says. which says the next one's going to be a double murder, which it looks like it's going to be for a while. I see. So you first think it's LL Cool J and what's-his-face. You think it's going to be those two guys that are in the water. What's that? But then it is just one. Yes. Because they survive. The first one didn't go off. But again, it would have been three. It would have been three. If both LL Cool J and Clifton Collins Jr. had died in the electrocution, and those guys shut the water off and got the crossbow arrows, three people would have done.

1:07:34Right, he could have been done. The movie is a mess. The movie, like, it's also like he could have, like, so I guess at any given point, the movie could have been over. Yes. Or at any given point, the movie could have started. Both could have started and finished. The movie exists in, like, liminal space. Okay, it's time out of time. It really is. So, but here's my question, though. Now, I know he references this and there's a flashback to Johnny Lee Miller at the front of the line on the front lines heading toward that boat. But what is the justification for why he was in the front when the bomb goes off on the boat?

1:08:11I think so he can set off the bomb, even though it was a very simple trip wire. Retroactively, now that we know he's the bad guy, I think he needs to blow up that boat so they can't get off. He needs. So I think he's purposefully sabotaging. He's one to it. I mean, I know, but he's also crazy. That's true. But I think he probably figured it all out. I mean, he seems again, say what you will about Johnny Lee Miller. He's planned a lot of stuff. And he and he and with with very. You know what? You're right. Why are we drilling down on three murders versus two? Yeah. You know, he did plan a lot of stuff and a lot of stuff worked.

1:08:47He's pretty effective. Yeah. And when I say it's like the game Mousetrap, that is what it's like. It is like everything feels on the verge of being a Rube Goldberg machine, a Rube Goldberg murder machine, which is the name of my punk rock band. I love that. And it really is like so convoluted. You know, like the one, the crossbow one, that makes the most sense. Turn this wheel, crossbow, go, great. Okay, I love that. Some of the other ones are so weirdly, like, truly nonsensical. Why drain his blood? Why? And why write all of those numbers in the blood to communicate? He's a real sickle, guys.

1:09:29You ever profile anybody? I mean, I know a lot about this. But they don't. They have no interest in solving any of the mysteries. They just want to find the traps. Here's the thing. But here's the thing. They should have really started not just pointing fingers and trying to shoot each other and blaming each other, but really started to try to find out a lot about each other. Well, right, because that's the movie. Absolutely. And it's like, well, Johnnie Lee Miller, like, why did you, what were your parents like? Like, what happened? And also, why did he kill them? Yeah. Yeah. Because he's a sicko.

1:10:05That's all we need to know. We just need to know he's a killer. A 10-year-old sicko, Paul? Hey, I don't smell him. A 10-year-old sicko? I don't smell him. I just tell him. Oh, boy. Oh, God.

1:10:20I'm just telling you what the what the what is. Look, obviously, we have opinions about this movie. The people out there have a different opinion. Oh, God. Wolves of Glendale, play us in. Paul and Jason and June talk a lot about what makes a movie good or not. But everyone knows they're actually full of shit. We need a second opinion. Someone that knows what they're talking about We need a second opinion

1:10:55We need a second Give me a second We need a second opinion So surprisingly, Jason, earlier in the podcast you said, I had never heard of this movie. Many people have not. This is one of the lowest seen films that we've done in a long time. I know this because only 735 reviews for a movie that came out 20 years ago. That's pretty low for us. 77 % are five-star reviews. And, yeah. And, you know, look, this is— So the people that found it loved it. Well, yes. And, you know, a lot of them are just taking a lot of anger out on the people who didn't like it. You know, don't listen to those couch potato critics who gave it one star.

1:11:42It's better than that. Right? We've read of those a million times, but I'm just going to kind of hit ones that I thought were a little bit better, like Patricia Fentress, who titled her review, gotta say, I outright love this film, dot, dot, dot, and you will too, I'm sure. Now, Patricia writes, this was an amazing movie. I have to be honest.

1:12:04Jason Mantzoukas:When I saw the DVD on the shelf, I wasn't too sure about it. the cover caught my attention and so did the title. So I picked it up, took a look at the cover and a little better saw one of my favorite rappers and actor was in it. And I said, Hmm. And I took a look at the preview in the back. And after reading the preview, I was still left a little unsure, but I was interested because LL Cool J was in it. And I thought about it for a bit because I was a little disappointed in some of LL's earlier movies, you know, Deep Blue Sea, Caught Up, and H2O, but I said, hell, I'll try it. And after watching the movie, I am glad I picked it up, because it is for sure going into my growing DVD archive for good.

1:12:48If you like LL Cool J like I do, you will for sure love his acting in this one. And if you like really good whodunits cop movies, movies that keep you guessing and scratching your heads or movies leaving you saying, I would never have thought of that, or I never knew, or saw that coming, or really didn't decent action movies or thrillers, then this is a movie for you. You will for sure love this movie. Or even if you want to try to get into one of those kinds of movies, this is kind of a great one to start off with. It for sure left me floored with my mouth open saying no freaking way how in the hell and just left in awe i cannot say how much i enjoyed this movie it is a must see wow i mean not just an an incredible review but it beautifully acted yes i mean one of the best no i mean really i i will say like you brought that to life yeah you And if you're just listening at home, but if you were to be watching Paul really find this, the truth of inside of this performance, that's all I can do.

1:13:59You know, this is the way I kind of am able to get my acting out. You know, it's like they don't pay me to act. They pay me to wait. It's I'll act for free whenever you get a chance. It's so interesting. And I will say, now that I'm thinking about it, LL Cool J, I think, stealthily becoming a How Did This Get Made All-Star. Absolutely. And by the way. I gotta say, I love watching him on screen. Oh, he's so watchable. He's so endlessly watchable. You know, my parents made me destroy my LL Cool J album when we were on a Born Again Christian moment. Because they had heard about LL Cool J. And, you know, and it was the I'm Bad album, you know.

1:14:40So it was early LL. And man, it was a real rough moment because I saw my, like, in my mind, if I could wear, like, the black leather pants and the big chain, I would have a Kangol hat. I would have done all that stuff. And you couldn't convince your mom that ladies love Cool J? I mean, I was trying to. I thought that she would be open to that. But no, she wasn't. That's heartbreaking. It makes me so mad. As a parent now, I'm like, I wish you had just never gotten those albums. To have a kid get them and then have to destroy them. I had to destroy three albums. What was the mode of destruction?

1:15:16Three albums were destroyed on three different occasions. One was Poisons, Look What the Cat Dragged In. I had to break that album over my knee and then throw it in the trash can. A vinyl? A vinyl. Also, just take it from your child and walk away with it. The fact that you had to do the act. Take it out of circulation. Yeah. And it was a low garbage day, so I saw it in the garbage for quite some time. Oh, Paul. So that was tricky. You have to stop. This is heartbreaking. This is too much for me. Well, and then the other one was In Excess, Suicide Blonde. That was a CD because my mom thought it was promoting suicide.

1:15:55Oh, okay. Even though that song is not about promoting suicide. It's not at all that, but okay. Because I was like, In Excess makes no sense. that CD was just taken from me I didn't have to destroy it but I had the case but never had the CD again and then the LL Cool J was tricky because LL Cool J was a tape and no I it was a tape that was like bought at the store so it wasn't like that and I had to smash it with a hammer I remember where it was on my front porch Okay, I honestly cut, cut. Stop the recording. I cannot take any more. That was a trick. The LL Cool J was the one that hurt the most because I just loved it so much.

1:16:45Do you think there's a listener? Do you think there's anybody who listens to this podcast for whom they discovered it at a young age and their parents said, you can't listen to this? Like, are we the LL Cool J to anybody out in the audience? were you a young person who was told this is for grown-ups or something i've talked to many people who tell me that they listen to this with their kids but then their hand is very closely on the volume button because they never know when it's going to be or very yeah yeah tricky but they but they are they are taking that they're taking that risk um okay because we're not a dirty dirty show but every like i think it's less about cursing and more about just language yeah You know, but I'm so, I'm so curious if there's anybody, if you're out there, you know, let us know if we were ever forbidden in your household.

1:17:40I will read you one other review just because it was pretty good. This is from, we had to go to IMDb to find more reviews because Amazon was a little empty. We went to IMDb and found this one by Sweet Lovely Crazy Butterfly, who also reviewed it in 2005. Both of these are from 2005, these reviews. I have been reading comments where people say some situations are over the top and that they act silly and do stuff that are hard to believe.

1:18:08Jason Mantzoukas:Well, seeing as they are professional profilers and must have great minds, what did you expect? Of course, the whole plot was a bit dramatic, but hey, the dude is crazy and brilliant. What did you expect? It's a fantastic movie, and I fail to see why people are so into putting down great movies. I bet some saw it twice just to find something wrong. Then again, I agree. Some actors could be different, but the whole team fits perfectly. So why the hell are you complaining? In my opinion, the best part was when they all fall asleep because of the coffee. And when Sarah changes the time to stay 15 minutes behind.

1:18:53Jason Mantzoukas:Really clever stuff. And Nick's death was the most well thought out, in my opinion. Dot, dot, dot. Great job indeed. 10 out of 10. What if one single person had said, I don't drink coffee? You know what I mean? Like, oh, I'm just going to hydrate. I'm just going to drink water. Yeah, yeah. I don't need to get to. Just one. Yeah, I have a weird reaction to caffeine. I don't do coffee. You know, like I've never been in a room with whatever it is. six or seven other people and every person is like yep coffee let's go um i was right uh in my thought that this was shot primarily because a lime producer saw an easy way in it was because um this is a place uh a fake village that they were able to uh get uh used by the dutch government so it's a it's a fake village where riots are government yes wow yeah and so you can actually see a lot of dutch writing if you look closely at the post or something the wall funny now i love See, that's, boy, I like that.

1:19:54There's something interesting about that. But there's also something that makes no sense. It's really hard to put a serial killer story inside of only law enforcement. Yes. Like, there are no civilians being killed by Johnny Lee Miller, right? Like, he's only preying on FBI agents, right? Right. And that's weird because you don't have that. It could happen to anybody fear. He is purposefully going after the best of the best. So it really doesn't make any. You would think that he would be leveraging killing innocents. And there should be something. he's doing this endangering innocent lives. If they were in a trap situation where they had to find a serial killer in the, I mean, again, not saying that even as a joke, but put them in a live situation where there could be a lot more.

1:20:53Here's what it is. Here's what it is, even with the circumstances that there are, that we have. The Navy is still there. There have been a series of deaths on this naval base, on this island, that the Navy so far has been unable to figure out. So they're bringing in the best of the best profilers and they've got to figure out. And then you find out it's it's one of their own. And he's been going and killing Navy people and who knows? I don't know what, but that they're I guess then they are not innocents really either. I'm trying to it doesn't matter. So much work has been put into getting this script back.

1:21:30But everyone agreed to this movie and worked their asses off. LL Cool J lost 40 pounds, traveled with the Philadelphia Police Department for weeks to figure out how to play this character. Clifton Collins Jr., he decided to just take a wheelchair out to Hollywood Boulevard and acted in this way to make sure that he was playing it accurately. Here's the two things that I thought you would really like. Gerard Butler was supposed to play the Johnny Lee Miller role, but then dropped out. It was like, I'm out. Would have been great. Now, the original cast that they wanted, it was supposed to be Ryan Phillippe, Reese Witherspoon, and their boss was going to be either Christopher Walken, Martin Sheen, or Gary Busey.

1:22:11Not bad. Not bad. And, of course— And everybody younger. That's like a younger, skewing team. Which I think is a little bit more fun. The other thing that was interesting is apparently there's an alternate ending where LL Cool J kills Johnny Lee Miller's character. and I have a feeling just reading that now for the first time that that's what we see at the end? Oh no, I guess it's not Johnny Lee Miller's wearing a bulletproof vest I don't know that's how he gets away with that, but like what if LL Cool J had just shot him in the head? Easy peasy nobody's putting one in the brain a la Johnny Casper in Miller's Crossing always put one in the brain nobody's doing that or john wick you know body shot body shot headshot you know what are we doing here and now you know what you may like mindhunters but i'm gonna stick with uh ali walker julian mcmahon and robert davi those are my profilers uh four seasons four seasons uh oh yeah uh any final thoughts on this movie oh this was i will say because we're getting there not worth it no you know uh not not not really worth it at all my favorite my the thing that i loved the most i love this era of boxy volvo that when they went in the opening cold open there the whole thing takes place in a like old school box yeah uh volvo station wagon i was like give me this i love it i had one of those oh you did yeah for a little spell we had one of those and it wow you bring them back yes people I feel like car companies think we want these sleek looking, you know, curvy lines on cars.

1:23:57They all look the same now. Yeah. And we don't want that. We want unique looking cars. Yeah. Even if they're not the most aerodynamic. But who cares? I mean, who cares? If the movie did anything, it did that, which is make us think about car design and representation in the automobile industry. I don't know what to say about this. Again, I think it was just hard for me because I was so excited and I thought it was for me and then it wasn't. The setup put so many interesting things into motion, including Val Kilmer. I was like, fuck, Val Kilmer is going to be in this. And I was excited about Christian Slater.

1:24:36Everything that I thought was going to happen didn't happen, but not in a good way. I agree. I will say one other thing, because it did remind me so much of Law Abiding Citizen, that if you've not listened to our episode a few weeks ago from Last Looks, somebody from the film, I can't name who, they asked to be anonymous, gave us some great details about some of those gimmicks and effects and what went in behind them and a whole bunch of stuff. Oh, that's cool. And also sent me a picture. And June, this will mean nothing to you, but the rap shirt was the gun from the funeral gun, the one that pops up, the robot gun.

1:25:18Yeah. That was the rap shirt. That was the rap. Yeah. They knew what they were making. All right. Fun. Well, pleasure seeing you both here, as always. Wow. We really did it. We really did it.

1:25:31Jason Mantzoukas:Thanks so much for listening to How Did This Get Made? If you have a correction or omission from this episode that you want us to hear, well, you can leave us a voicemail at 619-P-A-U-L-A-S-K. That's 619-PAUL-ASK or write a comment on our Discord at discord.gg slash HDTGM. Tune in next week to listen to our Last Looks episode where we respond to all of the best messages that you have left for us. And we'll announce next week's movie that we'll be covering on the show. Plus, Jason is always joining me on Last Looks to chat about our favorite TV shows, movies, music, books, whatever is on our mind.

1:26:04Jason Mantzoukas:Sometimes we just hang out. And if you need even more How Did This Get Made before Friday's new episode, know that we re-release classic episodes from the vault every single Tuesday. If you listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please make sure you are subscribed to our feed and you have automatic downloads turned on in the show settings. That really helps us and we appreciate it. So make sure you got those automatic downloads turned on. And lastly, I got to give a huge thanks to our behind the scenes team. I'm talking about our producers, Scott Sonny, Molly Reynolds, our engineer, Casey Holford, and our social media manager, Zoe Applebaum.

1:26:35Jason Mantzoukas:We will forever be thankful to the one and only Averill Halley. That's all I got, people. See you next week on Last Looks. Bye for now. Support comes from Amazon Business. You can't rely on guesswork to run your business. With smart business buying, innovative AI tools optimize your purchasing experience paired with delivery options built for business. Empower your team today. Learn more at AmazonBusiness.com. Exterior Remodels Inner Monologues. Brought to you by Power. The house looks good. Like, really good. That siding? Stunning. The roof? Elevated. Windows? I mean, wow. The process? Smooth.

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