Tough Guys Don't Dance (Classic)

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26:32Jason Mantzoukas:Robert Towne, who wrote Chinatown, comes and consults on this. You think... Produced by Francis Ford Coppola. You think at any point someone would say, hey, we don't understand the plot. This movie was produced by Francis Ford Coppola? This movie was produced by Francis Ford Coppola. I mean, just in the credits I saw that. Well, this movie premieres at Cannes. Wow. Like, yeah, this movie premieres at Cannes out of competition. So I guess maybe that doesn't count. But can I just show you... Not in the same way. It doesn't have the same weight, but even still, that's fucking nuts. When it premieres a can, the reaction is not good.

27:10And so all of a sudden, this is how America met this film.

27:17Jason Mantzoukas:So this is the trailer. Anyone can call pause at any point, but I want to show you the trailer for this film because I think I've never seen anything like this. And we'll just roll it right in. Here we go. I just received the comment cards from the first screening of my new film, Tough Guys, Don't Dance. Bold, innovative, wonderful. Stinks. Why are we talking about that? We can't let it hang out here, where else can we? A movie not to miss. Giant death orgy with lots of maniacs. Oh man, oh God, oh man. The rottenness happened. One of the best and most original films I've ever seen. It was brilliant.

28:03One of the worst ever. My grandmother could do better. I agree. You agree on what? Excellent crazy entertainment. Very funny. Gross. Sleazy. Garbage. There was no small job. Quick turns of plot. Enjoyed having to think. Whoever wrote this has never read a good book. You think it's simple? Well, here, go ahead. You pull the trigger. I'm being set up. Set up for what? Myrtle Blonde.

28:34Jason Mantzoukas:Wow. So Norman Mailer basically sets up his own movie by saying, like, I don't know. I like that he embraced, like, the negative reviews and made it part of the promotional campaign. Because it is, I agree with all the negative reviews. It does stink. It is. Whoever wrote it hasn't read a good book. I don't know. It was this movie. This movie is Ryan O 'Neill. And then a bunch of people who are basically doing a Blanche Dubois impression from Street Car Named Desire. This is the one thing I wanted to say early on, but I think it's a perfect time now. When I write, what I often do is I keep open another document.

29:15Jason Mantzoukas:And as I'm cutting through things, I will cut things out of like a document and I'll throw it into like a junk bin file just in case I want to go back to it. And what this whole script felt like was like Tennessee Williams junk bin for streetcar named desire. Like it was sort of like this is all lines that could have felt like it was so weird. This is like a noir. I mean, it's so but it's so it's infuriating. Like there is just infuriating. And I got to tell you, fuck Norman Mailer. I think the guy's a homophobic, sexist, fucking maniac. And I am so disgusted by him. And racist. and racist and homophobic.

29:56All sorts of things. Like every... All sorts of things. And like, it's all on display in this film. From the jump. Yeah. From the jump.

30:02Jason Mantzoukas:This opening scene with his dad. Your hair. Yeah. It went quick. Chemo. Must be bad. Yeah, I quit. The nausea was a disgrace. What are your chances, big fella? Yeah, son. Who the fuck can say? I handle everything but the middle of the night. Where's your wife? Patti Lorraine took off November 1st, 28 days ago. You married the wrong girl, that's all. Should have married the other one. I thought you liked Patti Lorraine. I liked her guts. But certain dames ought to wear a t-shirt that says, hang around, I'll make a cocksucker out of you. Thanks. I mean, that introduction, it's like, it feels like people were getting into fistfights in between takes of this movie.

30:53Jason Mantzoukas:Okay, so can I talk about something? Yes. Now I want to talk about something, and just because you showed the Norman Mailer reviews thing that is pretty great. There is, everybody can find it on YouTube, Norman Mailer made another movie called Maidhead. What? Oh, that's his first movie. Yes, that stars a young Rip Torn, okay? I thought this was one and a half. The footage, there's a 10-minute clip on YouTube that we will maybe link to or you can find. Just Norman Mailer, Rip Torn, Google it on YouTube, search it. And it is footage, it's behind-the-scenes footage that is being shot while they're shooting a scene.

31:30Rip Torn has lost his mind, and he attacks a shirtless Norman Mailer. He attacks Norman Mailer with a hammer and hits Norman. And all their families are around because all their families are there shooting. They're out in a field. He attacks Norman Mailer with a hammer. And then Rip Torn is like, I'm you. I'm you. Yeah. Yeah. And Norman Mailer at a certain point is kind of like, I got to admit, this is exactly what the character would have done. They're so inside of this kind of craziness. There are children crying, screaming, no, no. They've just watched their father be attacked by a Rip Torn who looks like he's, it looks like documentary footage from like a true crime story.

32:20Rip Torn looks like a deranged murderer. He's holding a hammer, bloodied from hitting Norman Mailer in the head with a hammer. It's fucking nuts. So here's, Norman Mailer is shirtless. Rip Torn, that's Rip Torn.

33:01you're going on I'm sorry, Daddy. That's a piece of paper. No. Let me hit you. No, no.

33:07Jason Mantzoukas:What? No. Hey! Will you cut this fucking idiot out? Okay, this is amazing. It's 10 minutes long. That movie had 45 hours. They had a 45-hour cut that they had to get down to 110 minutes. And someone was shot on that movie, and yet they financed him for another movie. They financed him. And there's a part of it where Rip Torn's going, you're not Mailer. I'm Mailer. I'm you. I'm you, daddy. And it is, and his eyes are, it is terrifying. Oh, my God. I thought this was his one and only. No. Although, I don't know. Are there any more? I actually don't know that. I think it's this one because he got a bunch of Razzies for this one.

33:57Wow, Razzies were already, how long have the Razzies been around?

34:00Jason Mantzoukas:1987. So this is the year where Ishtar. Oh, so this is later than I thought. I thought this was earlier. This is the year it was nominated for seven Golden Raspberry Awards. It won Worst Director, but it tied with Elaine May for Ishtar, which I think if you go back, you'll find that Ishtar was unfairly maligned for whatever reason. It's actually a fine, if not a capable film in many ways. I think, yeah, it got cooked for reasons that were not necessarily valid. It is a perfectly good movie. It just was very expensive. That's what it was. Yeah. But this movie starts in a weird way because you said it's like 10 minutes of the scenes.

34:37Jason Mantzoukas:But then it starts with a home invasion that we don't necessarily hear. Like it's like, I guess not a home invasion, but like there's a moment. Oh, you mean when his dad comes? Well, yeah. With the tea kettle? Yes. So I guess it's a weird thing to start a film with a noise where your character enters into it. because I feel like the tension is, oh, I've just come, whatever it is, I just woke up or like he, it immediately jumps into a very weird narrative switch. That's when I knew I should unbuckle my safety belt and just start ping ponging around here because I was like, okay. Well, yeah, because so what happens is we start with Ryan O 'Neill in bed.

35:16He hears the tea kettle going off, whistling. Which doesn't seem odd because... Which is not a scary sound, but he picks up a crowbar nonetheless and starts creeping through. And what you realize later is the last five days have been a series of like physical attacks that he's been through with various people. So later we understand why he was nervous that someone was in the house. But right now we have no idea what's going on.

35:43Jason Mantzoukas:In the language of film, to have someone waking up to a tea kettle going off, that would be the normal thing. Right. Well, not if he lives alone. Yeah. But we don't know anything about this. We don't know any of that. The first image we have of him is waking up in a bed like, oh, he could be married. This could be a comedy. We don't know anything. So just having someone in a bed with a tea kettle going off, like if a window smashed, I get it. But it's like it's I could talk forever about the house party where his wife plays the trumpet, the seance. By the way, this was shot in Norman Mailer's house.

36:15I mean, of course it was. I'm not surprised even remotely to hear that. I wrote this movie is bizarre. The room makes more sense. Like, what is this story? He goes, what Ryan O 'Neill says about his wife at one point, she was the largest addiction of my life. And he's a guy who goes to prison for selling coke. There's more coke done in this movie than I think in Bright Lights, Big City. This is absolute insanity. I was also confused. I want to talk about the heads, the women's heads that were buried in a forest under a rock.

36:54Jason Mantzoukas:Well, one woman and one man, right? See, that's what I want to talk about. I think both heads were women's heads. Wait, what happened to the old man then? The man was killed as well, but I don't think he was decapitated. So his body's just in the trunk rotting. Correct. Yes. And then the two women were decapitated. But at one point, Jason, and I think clearly Paul was a little confused about this too. Well, because we now know he's barely watching the movie. I mean, I know he was like, and I was confused when the when the Clippers showed up. And yeah, and Kyrie was there. I don't know. I don't know.

37:31Jason Mantzoukas:Hopefully God only be so lucky. So I OK, so I I knew there was blonde hair on the first head and he was freaked out. Right. So he left that head there. Got that. Because it could have been either head. Then he later is saying to himself, whose head was it? Whose head was it? He's not saying it to himself, Jason. That voiceover is a woman's voice saying, whose head is that? Whose head is that? Oh, is that? I'm sorry. You're right. Because there is. There's lots of exactly what June just did. There's lots of like whispering in the soundtrack. Well, I mean, who's cackling at the end of the film? We'll never know.

38:09Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah. Because that's like a ghost movie. But is this a thing? I know we've talked about this on the show and people have referenced this a bunch. Like we talked about this idea, like when you're a kid, you find porn in the woods. And that was how you would find like a porno magazine or something like that. But but in this is was it a thing to hide your drugs like in a little like. I was going to say because it's just marijuana he's hiding there. Yeah. How much? We know. I don't know where the cocaine was, but doesn't seem to be protected the same way that that. I never understood. Here's what I never understood.

38:40they seem to intimate repeatedly that Ryan O 'Neill is the cocaine connection that they have the money and that they're afraid they're saying he's going to be the guy that gets the coke but I never see that that the movie never shows him as that go-between and it seems like they're setting him up to take the fall well I thought he's I think that they're setting him up to be the take

39:01Jason Mantzoukas:the fall because they have the in with the coke dealers and that the big plan was to sell what like$2 million of Coke to get$10 million of money? Or they're running some - No, they had the money. They had$2 million from that Southern guy. Again, Provincetown is populated entirely by people from the deep south. I was going to say, is this a town that is populated by character actors from community theater? Because everyone in this movie, I mean, that Southern accent. The Southern guy, the richy rich Southern guy who's like, you don't understand. Man, it's hard to have it two million dollars. What am I going to do?

39:38Jason Mantzoukas:Shoot you? You want to do baby about it for the thing. We got to play a clip of that woman. That woman playing the woman who talks about her vaginal hair and playing a trumpet. To be clear, does she say vaginal? No, I didn't want to say pussy. She says musy hair. Yeah, all right. I was trying to be classy. I'll be honest. As far as I'm concerned, vaginal hair is a million times worse. It's really a lot worse. When you get more clinical with it, it's just... I should have said pubic hair, yeah. Vaginal hair is not even really a thing. Lady, you sound like a witch. Well, honey, I am a witch. Good blondes are.

40:20You're not a real blonde. My pussy hair was bright gold in high school. until I went out and scorched it with the football team.

40:35Jason Mantzoukas:That party where she goes, the doorbell rang, she goes, that must be my boyfriend, and just takes off her outfit. People are ripping off their clothes like NBA stars ripping off their warm-ups. It's like everybody has rip-away clothing. She strips just to answer the door because she says it must be my boyfriend, and then it's not. No. Is that the vibe? Like, this is what was interesting to me, too. Like, to me, that's not the vibe of that part of the country. Am I wrong? It did not. Well, I mean, the party was full of Southerners. So maybe they were bringing that Southern style to Provincetown is like, you know, the cape, basically.

41:15Yeah, I always think of it as a bit more like upper crust and stiff.

41:21Jason Mantzoukas:Well, that's why the seance made it sense, because they're into witches and stuff like that. they burned witches at the stake, right? That's why they're doing the sale. That's not necessarily in that same area, but sure, sure, sure. No, it made no sense that they were in Provincetown. Like, it would have made much more sense to me if this movie was set in Savannah. You know why it's in Provincetown? Because Norman Mailer is like, let's shoot at my house so I don't have to, like, go anywhere. Absolutely, absolutely. And that makes total sense now that you say that. But it made no sense to me, like, how big and broad all the characters were.

41:52Like, the drug dealers. But also similar. like they were all yes they were big and broad but there was no like i couldn't really tell you the difference between like pen jillette's character as the preacher oh holy cow the swinger preacher and also like that the main killer i think at the end that that guy and then the police chief like they're they all bled into each other the character that i wanted to

42:16Jason Mantzoukas:see more of who i thought was the most defined was the adult film star who comes to town she was incredible. She's one of the women that's murdered, though. She is. But I mean, I feel like we didn't get enough time with her. And you get this amazing scene with her right at the get-go. Tell us a joke. What makes surgeons happy? What? To cut people up and get paid for it. That's happiness.

42:49You look like one of those method actors. that plays a killer. Don't say that. Why not? Because I could kill you. I feel demented tonight. In what way demented? I could fuck your woman right in front of you. Only if the lady agrees.

43:08Jason Mantzoukas:Now, is that a real joke, or are they just all coked up? I don't... I mean, like, it has the structure of a joke, but it is not, like, it's not inherently funny. Like, the idea being, like, Like most people who cut people up, like they're crazy murderers. But surgeons, they cut people up and they get paid for it. But the way he told it, he felt like Christian Bale in American Psycho. Like he didn't tell it with any joy. It was like, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh, geez. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, and that's where I think, I think the movie is trying to like fuck with us a little bit where we're supposed to think like, oh, is he, is he the killer?

43:49Like, did he do this?

43:51Jason Mantzoukas:Ryan O 'Neill shouldn't even be in this town. He doesn't fit. Like, I don't buy him as this character. I don't buy him as a guy unzipping his pants. I don't buy any, like, talk about miscast. I don't agree him. I don't believe him as a Coke dealer who goes to prison for three years. I don't believe him as the local marijuana dealer who's like kind of a gigolo. Like, this, I don't agree. I don't believe in any of this. and I fundamentally don't believe in him as what he is, which is the Norman Mailer stand-in, the writer. He's not Mailer-esque in any way, shape, or form. He's supposed to be a writer.

44:30That's his thing. He's a failed writer or whatever. Meanwhile, you've got the police officer who's married to Ryan O 'Neill's ex-wife, who's played by Isabella Rossellini, who is, as always, incredible. and just like fantastic, but has so little to do. And I feel terrible that she's like, just kind of shunted around. But the speech that that guy gives when he goes, I'm a law enforcement officer and it turns me on. Like everybody in this movie has a speech about how this thing, this horrible thing they do makes them horny. Like the other Patty Lorraine. This movie wants to fuck. I mean, this movie is.

45:11Patty Lorraine, when she shoots the other blonde woman, gets like horny and they fuck afterwards.

45:17Jason Mantzoukas:It's crazy. I mean, look, that honestly, I have to say that cuckolding scene was so disturbing to me and not because it was graphic and there are more graphic sex scenes, but just to have that man just crying like, why don't you listen to me? No one listens to me. Listen to me. And it's like on the side of the, oh no, let me speak. It goes, let me speak. Let me speak. He's crying. He's dying. Why wouldn't he walk away? I don't know. This movie is so, I mean, by the way, it's aggressively homophobic. I mean, that's the other thing, too. It's like, it is like, it was kind of like jaw dropping in that way.

45:59Jason Mantzoukas:Like, yeah. In a way that it felt like performative masculinity. But that's Norman Mailer. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's kind of like who I'm leveling that against. It's really like it's Mailer really trying in the mouth of every character. Every character is homophobic to another character in some way, shape or form. But yet they would fuck them all. Every character would fuck each other regardless of sex. And do. And most of them do, you know. Yes. And what's hilarious about that to me is like Norm Mailer is giving every character that platform, but also just so many characters.

46:33It's like, I feel like there were three extra characters that could have, like, there were three men in this movie who you could cut out and not miss at all. Or just collapse them into one. There were just so many of them. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, here's the thing, too, that happens. Like, there's a scene in this movie where he gets in his Jeep and he has a dog with him. When does that dog come to play? And then the dog, in that scene, the dog is murdered. So I was like, when has he, first of all, we're like more than an hour into the movie. When did, since when does he have a dog? We've never seen him have a dog yet.

47:11Jason Mantzoukas:And yet it seems like, like it's like a John Wick moment. Yes. In the middle of the movie. In the middle of the movie. So he's like, you killed my, that's your knife. He says, that's your knife in my dog. Oh my God. Host unforgettable backyard barbecues with savings from Whole Foods Market. Get the good times going with made-in-house chicken or pork sausages and ready-to-cook kebabs for hassle-free flavor. Grab tasty flatbreads and their new balsamic chicken salad in the prepared foods department. Keep things fresh with organic red cherries, strawberries, and peaches at their peak. And stock up on bug sprays and sun care must-haves.

47:49Make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market. Hi, I'm Jenny Slate. And believe it or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast. I'm Gabe Liebman.

47:58Jason Mantzoukas:I'm Max Silvestri and we've been friends for 20 years and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives. It's called I Need You Guys. Should I give my baby fresh vegetables? Can I drink the water at the hospital? My landlord plays the trombone and I can't ask him to stop. You should make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

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49:03Jason Mantzoukas:Oh, yeah. He's like, he just wants to, he's just like, he just wants to throw sick parties. He's like, he's got a gun on Ryan O 'Neill and he's like, we're going to throw the biggest parties this world has ever seen. Like, his goal in getting rich off of the Coke money is just to throw better parties. I mean, look, not a bad goal. Not a bad goal at all. I mean, cut that dog. And by the way, the thugs rolling up in a white Rolls Royce, like these, like, first of all, not undercover at all. Aggressively, like, well, what car they were driving? Oh, a white Rolls Royce. Like, there's no. I would also believe it if you said that was Norman Mailer's car.

49:43I would believe it if everything in this movie was just, like, his. Oh, my God.

49:48Jason Mantzoukas:You drove a white Rolls Royce. Oh, I would 100 % believe that. I wrote in my notes, I feel like I'm in an active blackout. Oh, that's so terrible. Wait, there are a couple things in here, too, and maybe I don't want to be prudish, but the cop, when he's talking about his job and what he loves about his job. You don't want to be prudish, said the man who said vaginal hair? Vaginal hair. I don't want to be prudish because I was trying to be very respectful of the vaginal. uh the uh when when he when he goes he wrote like i like i like two humps a day and like he likes to he needs to fuck two he goes i fuck two women two different women two different women yeah so every day he has to fuck two different women i guess one of them is his wife isabella rossellini and one is we now know is ryan o 'neill's ex-wife and then doesn't isabella rossellini say at one point like I need to make out or he likes to make out five times a day like she also equates a number with how much they're I don't remember that I thought she had like a line where she says like he likes to make out five times a day well everybody in the movie I don't know if you guys found this jarring either everybody in the movie monologues like there's not a lot of like there's not a lot of back and forth it's not conversational everybody is like tease someone up for a monologue A proper, like, big, like, let me tell you type of thing.

51:17And it really is, it's exhausting because none of it helps. Usually when a character monologues, it's an exposition dump. It's helping you understand information. It's giving you context or helping you ground the movie or whatever. But these monologues are fucking nuts. Oh, they're absolutely crazy. When that guy, when that police officer then has a stroke or has a heart attack or has his mouth, his mouth is half paralyzed. Like, what the fuck was going on? I don't know. And then were they killing him at the end? Was that like a mercy kill where they were like, this is no life? Let's put him out of his misery.

51:58I did rewind that section. I couldn't quite understand that.

51:59Jason Mantzoukas:I rewound the section because I was like, I need to understand exactly what is going on here. and I believe if I am correct he hit his head into the wall so many times that he created his own stroke like it's like so if you bang your head against the wall enough times you can have your own stroke because he goes bang bang he's fine third bang he's getting what would happen to you like ping-ponging around an airplane after you yeah exactly who cares I'm dead I'm dead and Although that guy survived. He did survive. And the first thing he said was, I fucked better than you. Your womb is broken. Now, by the way, who cares if her womb is broken?

52:40Jason Mantzoukas:Because he clearly doesn't want to procreate. Like, like, or like. He might have a picture with those two kids, his brother's children. This is me. When he just holds up the. So all of that shit was so weird. Also, and this was featured in the trailer that you played earlier, Paul. But I wanted to call it out. But at the end, when Ryan O 'Neill and his father are dumping all of the bodies into the ocean that are the result of all of the many different crosses and double crosses that have happened in this movie, which are impossible to map because they don't make any sense. It is to pomp and circumstance.

53:17Oh, it is. They are only playing pomp and circumstance. It's as if they are graduating from high school.

53:28So today, graduates, as we go out into that great big world, we think to ourselves, you know what I mean? That's what it seems like. But instead, they're dumping bodies into the ocean.

53:37Jason Mantzoukas:And they're talking about the cure of cancer. Just hear a clip of that.

53:45Hey, you know something? I'm taking it as more than I thought I would. You've been in the wrong occupation all these years. This has got to be the answer to cancer. Maybe that's why cancer costs so much to cure. The way I say it, schizophrenia is the cure for cancer. Cancer is probably the cure for schizophrenia.

54:13Jason Mantzoukas:That whole thing, it's like, it's these, it's very writerly. And I think like we were talking about these monologues are internal monologues. and internal monologues work in novels because it's giving you, you're getting moments. And I think like when you try to put all that outside, it is, it just becomes really, every character becomes completely insane. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And well, I mean, to be fair, every character in this movie is completely insane. Like this is, there is nobody save perhaps Ryan O 'Neill's father who is so unfazed and unflappable in the face of multiple decapitations and murders that it is absolutely bananas.

54:56Jason Mantzoukas:Can I tell you my theory? Yeah. He is not real. You think he's a Tyler Durden situation? Yes, I do. I have a very strong theory on this. When I meditated last night after this movie to think, I was like... Wait, wait a second. Wait, back up. No, meditated on. I sat with the movie and I really thought about what I just thought. You know what? I need to go into a meditative state in order to process this movie. That's smart. That's interesting. I picture you like, it's like an episode of Sherlock where you go into the movie. I went into my mind. Your mind palace? Your memory palace? And I was thinking, I was like, I think he's not real.

55:34Jason Mantzoukas:I think he is like this aggressive. Because Ryan O 'Neill is a, here's what I'll say in the terms of Norman Mailer. and probably even not as aggressive as normally. He's not a man's man. So he needs a man's man to take care of his man's business. So he creates this character who can do all the things that he wants to do because no one else really sees him. Nobody else, you're right. Nobody else interacts with him. Yeah, and he... Oh, okay, so now I'm gonna yes and your theory into his dad lost his battle with cancer. Yes. and now Ryan O 'Neill in Matt in his time of need five days into the insanity of his wife leaving him people starting to turn out up dead and realizing that he's being framed for murder he needs the help of his father who seems to be like an ex-cop or something he has like explanations as to what happened and who shot who and how and this one died from this and this one died from that he seems to have knowledge so that he takes that and and populates it into yeah maybe June I honestly I mean you're giving the movie way more credit for originality maybe I well so I thought at one point what's interesting about that is I thought at one point he was going to be the killer and I was like oh we're leading there like we must be leading back to his father I think it's definitely possible.

57:10Like I was craving so badly some, I knew pretty early on that we were in a nosedive in terms of plot and that I wasn't going to be able to find my way out so much so that when the hotel worker, like the clerk arrived at Ryan O 'Neill's house to ask if he knew this couple, because they left their car in the hotel. I was relieved to just understand the scene. Understand like, oh, a car's been left there. He's worried. He's trying to figure out where these people are. He knows he's been with them the night before because I was so lost. He's the only responsible person in this town. Yes. But Paul, I think it's an interesting theory.

57:57And I also think that it gives the movie way too much credit. If that is true, like if you said to me like, oh, actually, that is true. It's in the book. I would be like, oh, that's a more interesting story. It's just not in here. You really have to like look for it.

58:17Jason Mantzoukas:That's going to lead into my next thing. Let's start a book club. And this lets us be the first book and we'll come back next week. Please don't. I will never return to this. I will not. So it's interesting. I knew we were in trouble when I saw the title. when I saw on my calendar, like watch, I had eight o 'clock night before Thursday. How did this get made? Watch tough guys. Don't dance. And I was like, uh, what's this? And then the credit started and I see Norman Mailer and I'm like, what is this now? And then it unfolded. And it was, it was just horrible. You guys, I hated it. I hated every minute.

58:57Jason Mantzoukas:By the way, the title of this thing, Roger Donahue was a prize fighter who was thanked by Norman Mailer in the film because he told him an anecdote that resulted in the title. I guess Frank Costello, the Murder, Inc. boss and his gorgeous girlfriend greet three champion boxers in the Stork Club. And Costello demands that each of these boxers dance with his woman. And then each of the boxers nervously complies. And then the last boxer, Willie Pep, you know goes well why don't you dance Mr. Costello and Costello goes tough guys don't dance and that's how it came but also what a bizarre story that is too like again a cuckolding of these men like you guys think you're tough I'm gonna make you dance for me and then tell you you're not so tough I mean this is a lot of you know there's a lot of hammer hits so and there's a lot of toxic masculinity on display inside this movie for sure though I also just want to take a moment to talk about some of the amazing dialogue like there was a thing where it's like if you run a potato farm and you run to the potato market you won't have enough potatoes to run a factory i'm like wait what the fuck is that or like where they're like uh hey did you make a puddle in your pants like there was like some jazzy like there was some like jazz it's like when back to the future 2 when they go there like hey bojo i'm like oh he created a whole language in this movie that He's like, I think.

1:00:20And I know you started the show with this, but I really cannot stress enough that if you are part of the audience of this podcast that does not listen, or rather does not watch the movies ahead of time, or maybe doesn't watch the movies at all, at least seek out the clip of the, oh God, oh man. We got to play. We got to play.

1:00:44Jason Mantzoukas:Because it's too. This is, so Ryan O 'Neill gets a letter from Isabella Rossellini and she makes him promise to read it alone when he's alone, not with her presence. So he goes to the beach and he reads it and then this happens. And by the way, I couldn't understand what the letter was actually saying. June and I rewound it three times because her accent is definitely playing a part of it. But then there's also like the minute she says, because I did eventually figure it out, murder them. We have to murder my husband. A bird squawks. I wish you had shared that with me. Well, you were asleep when I figured it out.

1:01:20Jason Mantzoukas:When I figured it out. That would be hard. She's saying my husband and your wife are sleeping or having an affair. Right. And that they're behind. They're in cahoots to try and frame whatever, frame you or whatever. So we have to kill them basically before they get you. Yeah. But when she says I kill them, I swear a bird squawks. squawks. So you're hearing surf, sand, voiceover, and a bird squawking over a very, like we were around it three times and it was June and I both trying to listen and be like, what? What's that? My husband is having an affair with your wife. I don't think we should talk about it.

1:02:02Unless you're prepared to kill them. Oh man.

1:02:06Jason Mantzoukas:Oh God. Oh man. Oh God. Oh man. Oh God. Oh man. Oh God. Oh man. Oh, God. Oh, man. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, man. Oh, God. Oh, man. Apparently that wrecked the relationship between Ryan O 'Neill and Norman Mailer because I guess Norman Mailer, and I've read a couple of things now, really loved the bad acting. And I think he edged it like he was, again, more of that. Like, so he fed people into it. So like Ryan O 'Neill was like, oh, he totally betrayed me. Like he fucked me over. And I think that like people just felt like Ryan, when Norman Mailer talks about it, like there's a disdain for these actors.

1:02:42Jason Mantzoukas:He's like, oh, I thought the bad acting were so great. Like, he's like, he's a non-filmmaker. He's an author making a film, commenting on film and terrible acting. It's like, it's too many levels are at play, I think. Oh, my God. I mean, it's, it is. I want to say it's interesting to watch. It's just not. I mean, honestly, yeah, I wouldn't recommend that you go watch it, even though, you know, there's people out there that might have a different opinion. So now it is time for second opinions.

1:03:36Jason Mantzoukas:Thank you, John Lajoie. These are five-star reviews. I didn't really find many, oh, I shouldn't say me, Nate Kiley. By the way, also a big thank you to Averill Halley for bringing this film into our lives or I guess a lawsuit to Averill for bringing this in. Jason and June will be, I hope you have a lawyer. But Nate Kiley did some pretty good research here. There are not many earnest ones, but I'll read you, I'll read you this one from Roy Clark. Okay, so it is the title, a very mailer movie. as in great, embellished with speed bumps. When classmates in the 60s were reading Salinger, I started reading Mailer and I haven't stopped until he died last week.

1:04:17Jason Mantzoukas:Happily, I've read and collected all but a few of his titles. I've enjoyed his film translation of Tough Guys Don't Dance because I've read and enjoyed and learned from the book. Learned. Now I guess it's rereading time. This film is Mailer as the book with a strong character-driven plot drawn with the brilliance and pomposity of Mailer's famous four. Personally, I like his departure from expected forms, taking risks, which might prove embarrassing. Flowing or stumbling, the flow of tough guys is audaciously Mailer brilliant, funny on purpose, or an egotistical misstep, artistically insightful or hung over and off.

1:04:56Jason Mantzoukas:It's way up with acknowledged smartness, and it's an entertaining flick. It's a learning experience as well as entertainment in terms of human experience as well as film writing and directing. Somehow the characters seem exactly as I saw them when reading. For a double hit, try reading the book before or after viewing the movie. I've come to like reading after viewing for the imagery. It will make an impression and an impressive one. Five stars. And then this is from Stephen Morrow. And you know, these are serious because they're using their full name. And this is it. I still maintain this has some of the best dialogue in a movie you'll ever find, such as Never Call an Italian Small Potatoes.

1:05:38Jason Mantzoukas:He was way ahead of the curve in reintroducing noir again into film culture. Of course, I'm biased since I was fortunate to have worked with Norman on it. What? Yeah, you are biased. Wait, what? But can you think of a movie of more recent vintage that has more than one memorable line? This is 1987. I would say this is the height of catchphrases, but maybe just one. I don't know. Just explosions and lots of gore. RIP Norman Mailer. They don't make them like that anymore. Can you imagine you're Isabella Rossellini? The year prior, you are in Blue Velvet. Yep. Like an incredible movie that is a noir, that is an unbelievable film.

1:06:22And then you are in this. That's a wild back-to-back two years.

1:06:28Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah. The budget of this was five million or 10 million, depending on who you believe. Los Angeles Times says five. Spy Magazine says 10. It grossed eight hundred and fifty eight thousand dollars. The top three films of 87 are Beverly Hills Cop 2, Platoon and Fatal Attraction. It doesn't feel like it's a contemporary of that at all. It was beaten by Running Man, Jaws the Revenge, Over the Top and Prom Night 2. I think we know where you both fall on this movie about watching it but I will say this June I was wrong this is the last movie he directed but he directed four films total Maidstone Beyond the Law and Wild 90 this is the last movie he directed so he was quite a prolific filmmaker I mean not bad at all to get four out of the gate like that but I mean to be clear this is bad.

1:07:22This is like, and this is, this for me falls into the category of I would not recommend people watch this.

1:07:29Jason Mantzoukas:June, would you recommend that people watch this? It's on YouTube though. So if you want to like, if you want to peep it or if you want to like watch the, oh God, oh no, or man scene, like watch that. Or to get a sense of what we're talking about, to watch some of these Southern accents. The Southern accents are amazing. The scene outside of the church. But I would also say it is not worth watching. Yeah, I took, again, I had one gummy. I needed more. I think had I been, I'd be curious to see, I mean, I'll never turn it on again, but just like what one and a half, what that would have felt like.

1:08:04Well, June, I think I can answer a little bit of that question for you. Not as it measures in gummies, but as it measures in versions of being impaired by that same substance. I watched this pretty stoned and it was, it was not cool. I'm watching it completely sober and I'm learning about the dad.

1:08:24Jason Mantzoukas:I'm all into it. And I got to say, we didn't talk about my favorite part of the whole movie, which is the machete on the wall. Yeah. The missing the missing machete on the wall, which is a clearly the murder weapon of the decapitated people. But also underneath it, a picture of the man, the cop holding like a bloody machete, like. And so many guns, so many guns in that house. When he goes into Isabella Rossellini's house and there is like 30 guns just like at the ready, mounted on the wall, in gun racks on the floor. Like it is like an armory. Their living room looks like an armory. Maybe what we should do is like instead of like we should have our own barometer, like how many gummies does it take to get through some of these movies?

1:09:07It's sort of like the reverse of Rotten Tomatoes where it's like it took me two gummies. It took me three. The only way to enjoy the. Yeah, but then, you know, I agree. But then sometimes, though, like, again, like, as stoned as I was, this movie was like, like, again, I wrote, I feel like I'm in an active blackout. I felt like I felt like time stopped. I didn't know what was happening. I didn't feel safe. Yeah. You know, it was unsettling, to say the least.

1:09:34Jason Mantzoukas:It was absolutely great. I feel like I communed with this film. I had no gummies. I mean, look, I enjoy a Camino gummy, but I but I had none. And wait, are you plugging Camino Camino gummies? I'm just saying, you know, I'm just saying that. I mean, the Kaminoian, do they do cloning on Kamino in Star Wars? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a different kind. The Boba Fett gummies are very, very good. But wow. Wow, wow, wow. What a ride. Jason June, anything to plug? Yeah, I've got a couple. I mean, there's a couple of things that are up and about. I'm a voice on a new animated show on Fox called Housebroken you can watch all of season one now of the animated show Invincible that I'm a voice in, it's on Amazon a fantastic adaptation of Robert Kirkman's comic series and then I think as of last week, June 10th on Paramount Plus, the movie Infinite guys, if you want to see me playing a character whose only name is the artisan Jason, I am all about Infinite as I got a special.

1:10:45Do I wear eyeliner in this movie? Heavy eyeliner? Do I have a smoky eye and painted black nails? Yes, I do. Am I only referred to as the artisan? Indeed, I am.

1:10:55Jason Mantzoukas:By the way, we should get together because recently on Black Monday, I think actually coming up this weekend on Black Monday, I am also wearing a smoky eye. and as my character gets in deep into 90s club culture or in New York City. So, you know, we're men who are not afraid to wear a smoky eye. I will say that I did get a viewing kit for Infinite that came with a whole bunch of fun stuff. You could check out my Instagram. You could see all the different fun treats and things I want to support. I didn't get that. Well, you know, there you go. You know, there you go. I have ins with the Infinite people.

1:11:34I'm very excited to see that, Jason. Also, I would encourage everybody to check out another podcast. I know Paul spends a lot of time promoting his other podcast. Well, guess what?

1:11:44Jason Mantzoukas:Never promote it. I don't need to. I have one too. And it's called The Deep Dive. It's with me and Jessica Sinclair. And you can head to anywhere you find your podcast and check it out and subscribe. And also, any of our listeners who want to join the Jane Club, head to janeclub.com. We have a lot of exciting things going on this summer. You can use our special head of the skip made code Jane 50 for half off your first month's subscription. It's so good. And deep dive is fantastic. You know, it's right up there with like the great podcast, like unspooled or screen test. And and wait, screen test.

1:12:25Jason Mantzoukas:What's that? Do you have another podcast? Guys, let's not get into it. Is that a podcast you host? That's a wait. Do you have a third podcast? It's a game show. So anyway, so you host. Yeah. Come on. Get with it, guys. It's a spinoff. What are you even talking about? It's a spinoff podcast. It's a movie to game show that you don't need to know anything about. Classic films. Just you have to love films. That's all. Oh, boy. Well, I do love. You would be great. I want to throw one more plug out to our friends in the band Mannequin Pussy. Yes. They have a new EP out. It is called Perfect. It is fantastic.

1:12:58their music is being used in the tv the hbo show mayor of east town um i want to watch the whole thing i want to watch it with you too yeah let's watch it so you know go and seek that out watch the show support mannequin pussy they're a great band um i will also say that i mean i i know i

1:13:16Jason Mantzoukas:plugged briefly black monday but i will say that june is on black monday this season as well so you can catch her as uh quirky uh and uh and keith actually worked together this season in the world of religious television. But you can actually watch Screen Test and see a whole bunch of different stuff over on our Twitch channel because every Thursday, me and Hubel host a show. Jason's been on a few times. There's been a bunch of stuff. We have a cooking show. We have music shows. It's twitch.tv slash friendzone. So check that out. Super fun stuff over there. And Jason, I will send you the Screen Test with the George Lucas talk show guys where they all compete in their Star Wars knowledge.

1:13:53Jason Mantzoukas:And it is very, very funny. They are. Oh, that's great. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Remember, keep this conversation going. Did you love this movie? I know you did. You can continue that conversation in the mini episode on our Discord at discord.gg slash hdtgm. And a big thank you to our super producer, Cody. Our recently promoted senior head engineer, Devin Bryant. I didn't know that. Congratulations, Devin. Yes, Devin is promoted. S-H-E-G. Gee. A big thank you to April Haley for pulling all of our movies and making sure that she does the work before we have to do the work.

1:14:32Jason Mantzoukas:So think of what she doesn't recommend when we get this. That's true. That's really an important rumor. There it is. She needs workers comp. She needs workers. Honestly, I will think about that. Yeah, they're so bad she doesn't forward them on. I have literally had conversations where I'm like, what about this? And she's like, I tried it. It's not good. She's sat through it all. She's doing the Lord's work. With his brand new baby at home, doing the research still. Thank you, Nate, for getting on top of that. Greg T. Nelson, the ghost of Craig T. Nelson, Zach McAleese. And of course, Kyle Waldron for doing all the amazing art.

1:15:01I would love it if you just, if the actual Craig T. Nelson was involved in the production of the show. I would love it.

1:15:05Jason Mantzoukas:He just makes fan art. He loves making fan art. And thank you all for listening. Follow us all on our social channels. We will see you next week on a mini episode. Make sure you give us a call at 619-P-A-U-L-A-S-K. That's 619-P-A-U-L-A-S-K. Thank you, everybody. See you next time on a mini. Bye for now. Bye.

1:15:51Jason Mantzoukas:that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode. I need you to go.

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