A climate-resilient ancient grain with Pierre Thiam of Yolélé (2022)

0:00Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to How I Built This Early Early and Ad Free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcast. This episode is brought to you by Klaviyo, the only CRM built for B2C and the key to making Black Friday and Cyber Monday your biggest wins yet. When the holidays hit, your competition only gets louder. That's why the most successful brands use Klaviyo to cut through the noise and build personalized relationships that drive more revenue. With Klaviyo, you get marketing, service, analytics, and all your customer data together on one AI-powered platform.

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2:16And I've had so much fun on Airbnb experiences during my travels that I decided to host my own in San Francisco this month. An original Airbnb experience all about unlocking your next big move in work or life. To learn more, head to Airbnb.com slash Guy. Okay, on to the show. And this week, we're rerunning an interview from last fall with Chef Pierre Chiam. His company, Yolele, is betting big on Phonio. It's a nutritious and drought-resistant African grain that could feed billions of people on our warming planet. Hope you enjoy. Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So one of my favorite things to do is to wander the aisles of grocery stores.

3:05I'm always on the lookout for weird and new products. Recently, I came across some mushroom jerky, cassava cheese puffs with plant-based cheese, a Mexican fermented kombucha-type drink. Anyway, I always work to find at least one new thing in the store to try each week. And about a year ago, I came across a grain that looked really interesting. It was high in protein, gluten-free, and most intriguingly, it was an ancient grain from Africa. It's called phonio and immediately grabbed a bag and cooked it up with some chicken thighs later that night. Not only was it great, but also totally different from other grains like quinoa or farro or rice.

3:48The man who is most responsible for bringing phonio to the U.S. is a Senegalese chef named Pierre Chiam. He's the founder of a West African restaurant in New York called Teranga. And Pierre's on a mission to get people to discover phonio. Why? Well, not only is it a nutrient-dense plant, but it requires very little water to grow. In fact, it thrives in drought-stricken areas. In other words, phonio could be a major source of food as climate change continues to ravage the planet. In 2017, Pierre co-founded his company, Yolele, to bring phonio to the U.S. and eventually to the world. Besides Phonio, Yolele now sells Phonio flour and even snacks made from the grain.

4:34And their products are available in thousands of stores across the U.S. Pierre Chiam joins us. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Guy. It's a pleasure. So you are originally from Senegal and you grew up, I think, in Dakar, right? In the capital or around the capital? Yes. Yes. I grew up in Dakar in a neighborhood called Point E. And you were not, from what I understand, as a kid or even as a young man, You were not necessarily food-focused, right? I mean, you were, as a student, you were into science and mathematics. Is that right? Yes, I had a math baccalaureate, and then I went to university for physics and chemistry.

5:12But growing up in Dakar, obviously, food is a big part of the culture. But, you know, it's a gender-based activity. So the kitchen is for women. And food was not an option as a profession. I never thought food could be a carrier. Yeah, but it's interesting. I know you've talked about this before. You've given a wonderful TED Talk. Anyone listening should go check it out. Dakar, because of where it is, its location and its history, it has a blend of cultures, obviously, many different West African cultures, but also there's like French influence within the food and Lebanese influence and Vietnamese influence.

5:48Tell me a little bit about the foods that you grew up eating. Yeah, like you said, Dakar is like a melting pot, really, because of its location. You know, it's the most western coast of Africa. So it became a natural port of entrance. For centuries, it was the place where mariners would come before going anywhere in Africa. And over time, the French colonized Senegal. So we still have a strong French community there. And the Lebanese community has been there for generations now. And they brought their food culture. And you have obviously the West African community and the Vietnamese because the Senegalese and the Vietnamese had the same colonial past with the French.

6:29Yes, yes. So, yeah, I had all those flavors growing up. I was exposed to that, not to mention the local cuisine, which is also very, very interesting because my mom was from the south of Senegal, which is a part very more lush as opposed to the north of Senegal, the south of the Sahara and dry and arid. So that part of Senegal has a different type of cuisine with lots of seafood, which you see everywhere in Senegal, but also lots of citrus. Fermentation also is a big part of our cuisine. So my upbringing was full of flavors. Wow. I know that you decided to, at a certain point, to go to the United States to continue your studies.

7:08You studied physics and chemistry in Dakar, but there was a nationwide student strike, and I guess you couldn't continue your studies. So you ended up getting a visa to the United States and you were supposed to study in Ohio, right? Uh-huh. In Cleveland. In a small college, yeah, in a town called Berea, actually near Cleveland. I came here in 1989 and I knew a friend who lived in New York. So I had to land in New York and then take a bus from New York to Ohio. That was the plan. So he insisted that I stay in New York a couple of weeks. And, you know, that was a great opportunity. Everyone wants to see New York at least once.

7:46And that changed everything. I'm still on my way to Ohio. I never made it there. I stayed in New York. And three days after I arrived, I got robbed. And I lost every single penny that I had. That was... What? You got three days after you arrived to New York in 1989, you were robbed? Three days. My friend lived in a place on 50th Street right near Times Square. And I'm not sure if you knew New York in 1989. Oh, yes. That was a different place. It really was a scary place. And I was horrified by it. A car is like a peaceful seaside city. And now I'm here in New York. That was completely different than what I expected to see.

8:25You know, it wasn't what I saw on TV. And I'm broke now. And it's getting cold because I arrived in the beginning of fall. So I had never seen winter before. And I'm like, I'm out of here. I had my return ticket. A friend of mine happened to be working in a restaurant. And they were looking for a busboy, the only job that required no particular qualification or experience. And I applied. I came. And the boss, Richard, who is still a good friend, just took me. He saw this desperate young kid, and he gave me the job. And that changed everything. It's amazing. I mean, you were coming to the United States to study physics and chemistry in Ohio.

9:09You get robbed in New York. And that's it. It's all gone. And it's amazing because you laugh about it now, but I'm sure it wasn't funny at the time and very scary. Oh, boy. But it's crazy when you think about something like that happening. That horrible thing had to happen in order for your life to completely change. I mean, you didn't obviously go and pursue physics and chemistry. You got a job as a busboy, and you would then go on to pursue a life and career in food. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And it had to have happened. Now I look back and I'm like connecting the dots and I'm like, without that incident, my life would have been completely different.

9:51I would have hugged that guy who robbed me. I mean, you know, he changed my life for the best, I believe. From what I understand, you really got interested in cooking. I mean, you could again have become a busboy and maybe risen to eventually to an assistant manager or manager of the restaurant. But you really were interested in what was being prepared in the kitchen and I guess wanted to learn about that. Yeah. Yes. It was ingrained in me without knowing it. My mom at an early age, I remember she had this collection of cookbooks. And as a kid, I remember that was a La Rousse Culinaire, a French collection.

10:28And I used to look at the photos of her cookbook collection. And I had no design. I just liked the pictures. It looked delicious. And now I'm here in New York City. As a busboy, I'm taking the dirty plates into the kitchen. And I'm looking at this food that looks so much like the pictures of my mom's La Rousse Culinaire. And I'm like, wow. What kind of restaurant was it, by the way? The restaurant was French slash American cuisine. So the food was beautiful, you know, more beautiful than what I've ever seen before. And the fact that the chef was French trained too, he spoke a little French and he loved whenever I was in the kitchen, he loved to practice his French with me.

11:08So there's so many things that got me, you know, very lucky, really. And that chef offered to, you know, he knew my story over time. He knew that I wanted to make extra money because I was still hoping to save money and go to Ohio. I was like, New York is not for me. This city is crazy. And he said, OK, so why don't you come and do extra shifts in the kitchen? You know, you could be a dishwasher. And I'm like, sure, I'll do the extra shift for the money. But I don't intend to stay in this. you know, this is too hard. And I hated washing dishes. You know, I hated it so much. I hated it, but it was a necessary first step.

11:47And from dishwasher, I went to, you know, when the prep guy is missing, they always call the dishwasher and give you the knife and you start chopping. Prepping. And that's how you learn your knife skills and how over time you become a prep cook and then you're no longer a dishwasher. And then the garde manger is missing And then they take you to the Garda-Manger station and you start learning how to make the dressings and how to clean the leaves and the salads and stuff. And that's where everything changed for me because when I started to make dressings and I realized that I was making an emulsion of acid and lipid.

12:23It was vinegar and oil. You're a chemist. And I'm a chemist. And I'm like, hey, I understand what's going on here. And I started to look at every reaction in the kitchen from a different angle now. Because I knew the theory of it. I knew what was happening. So it was really something of like, I dig this. I like this. I like the kitchen atmosphere. I like the camaraderie. This became my family. Within just a few years of arriving to New York, you actually became the head chef at this restaurant, Boom, in Soho. Yeah. Yeah, it's remarkable. I'm trying to like, I wish I could be a fly on the wall for like those long distance calls you had with family back in Dakar or maybe the letters you write.

13:14Dear family, I am not studying chemistry and physics. I'm actually the head chef at a restaurant in Soho. So it took me a while to do that. It took me a while. I mean, I was still very embarrassed. It was cultural. You know, you come from a culture where cooking is really a women activity. So this cultural thing was stuck with me, even though I was very interested. But I knew I was in New York and everyone in the kitchen were men like me. So it was in this world, it was fine. And I was loving what I was doing. I really loved it. I was passionate about it. But it was still difficult to tell my parents about it for a little while.

13:56And since I knew that, you know, it wouldn't be long until my mom find out and I had to tell them. So that's when I mastered my courage and went to call and say, hey, by the way, you know, I am not going to school. OK, and I am cooking and I love this. And my mom, you could see, I mean, she was very reserved, but you could see she had this relief. She was smiling. I could feel that. And then she said, wow, that's great. What kind of cooking are you doing? And she was curious about the food that I was doing. And she started asking me questions. And then she wanted me to give her some recipes. And I was like, wow, that wasn't bad.

14:39And she told my dad. And my dad came too. Also, you could feel the smile. But they were both amused. But you could see that they were really relieved parents who knew that their son had found something that he enjoyed doing and they were encouraging. And I was like, wow, I didn't think my parents were cool like that. But it turns out there's nothing to be cool about. I was just doing a job that I like doing. But now I was free and I was free to become a cook and later a chef. Pierre, from what I've read, you were trained in the sort of European cooking styles, French, Italian. But many chefs who are trained in European traditions but don't have European backgrounds go on to open restaurants that reflect their own identities and their own backgrounds.

15:26When were you able to start exploring that culinary side of your world? Well, it started really, it came organically. First of all, you know, when I moved to New York, I was always craving for that food, the food I grew up eating. There was no restaurants really that serving that food, you know. So at the restaurant at Boom, the chef is interesting because he's doing a cuisine that's different. He's inspired by Southeast Asian cuisine, you know. And that's new in New York. We're like in the early 90s, mid 90s. And that cuisine has flavors that's somehow taking me back home. There's lots of fermentation.

16:04There's lots of acidity. There's that freshness and the grains and all that. And at times, when that was my turn to cook family meal, I would cook food from memory, dishes that my mom used to prepare. I mean, peanut sauce. Family meal, of course, is what the kitchen staff eats before they serve the customers. Yeah, four or five o 'clock, family meal. Someone from the line is the one in charge of family meal. And when that's my turn, everyone was looking forward to it now because I got them used to this caramelized onion and lime sauce with chili over rice. I had them peanut sauce with cassava.

16:42I mean, I'm bringing those flavors now, eggplants and okra and all that. And they're like, wow, this is different. This is cool. And then like this should come as specials. You know, that's how the idea started to come into me now. New York is calling itself the food capital of the world. but Africa is not in this world. I'm like, hey, this is going to be my mission. I'm going to start finding inspiration from that cuisine and bringing it and that I never looked back. Eventually, the restaurant was doing so well, we opened a new branch in South Beach, Miami. And guess what? They decided to send me to run that kitchen.

17:21And I'm like, wow, this is amazing. I mean, I'm like completely, you know, shocked. But so excited because in addition to sending me to run the kitchen, I was told to even add some of the family meal specials into the menu. Into the menu. Into the menu. These were dishes like you were using like sweet potatoes and cassava and plantains and peanuts and chilies. Exactly. Exactly. You said the right words. Sweet potato, cassava, peanut sauce became my first dish and okra. and that one was so well received. I mean, there was a food reviewer who came to the restaurant and wrote an article about the restaurant that mentioned this one dish.

18:06I was like, wow, this is, to me, it was like the top of everything. I mean, being mentioned in a paper here in the U.S. So that was really the thing that confirmed to me that I had to stick to this mission. So when I came back to New York, I decided to start a catering business. And eventually, in early 2000, this catering became my very first restaurant. Yo Lele. Yo Lele. We're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, more from Chef Pierre Chiam about his journey from chef and restaurant owner to founding the company he oversees today. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This Lab.

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22:48Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm speaking with Chef Pierre Chiam. OK, so in 2000, you opened your first restaurant called Yulele, and you'd begin this journey as a restaurant owner and then eventually a cookbook author. And from what I understand, for your first cookbook, you went to Senegal to research ideas for the book. And I guess during one of those trips, you rediscovered this grain called phonio, which you had eaten kind of rarely as a child, right? Yeah, so I had eaten Fogneau on rare occasions when my parents would take me to visit my grandparents in the south of Senegal.

23:29So Fogneau is grown in that region in the south, in Casamas and Kedougou. Those are like the Fogneau areas of Senegal. But in Dakar, where I grew up, there was no Fogneau. So I never had Fogneau growing up. So I'm now writing this book many years later. and we spent time with the women of my family, really. That was where I was getting the inspiration and I wanted the book to be about that. And as I'm traveling in the South and I'm tasting all these different flavors and the forno came back and it hit me and I'm like, oh, wow, this grain is so delicate. And in that part of Senegal, they still consider it, they call it the most delicious grain of all grains.

24:15That's like how they see forno. So I was like, I need to write about this grain. I need to bring this grain. I need to even include it in my menu. We should, for a moment, just stop and describe Phonia, because I said this before we started recording, that I have made it. It's a little bit like, and help me out here, like it's a cross between like couscous, like the fluffy lightness of couscous, and sort of a nutty, there's a nuttiness. But it's none of those things. It's not quinoa. It's not couscous. It's not a wheat, but it has that lightness. Is that fair to say? Yeah, it's fair to say it has the size of couscous.

24:53It's tiny like couscous and fluffy. It's even lighter than couscous. Because, you know, when you eat couscous, you kind of feel heavy after. But with foigno, it's really, I mean, you can eat foigno and just go for a run right after. It digests really easily. And it has nuttiness, you're right. It's slightly nutty. And the other particularity of foigno, which is really great, is very neutral flavor. So that makes it very versatile. You cook Fogno with so many different flavors. It adapts to so many different sauces. My last cookbook was dedicated to Fogno, so I have lots of recipes from the whole journey of Fogno, from desserts to baking to savory dishes to, I mean, Fogno sushi.

25:36I mean, there's like so many ways to use Fogno. Before we talk about the business that grew around this, because that would eventually happen, I want to ask you a few more questions about Fogno, because it is this grain that is, I guess it's really high in protein and amino acids and also doesn't require a whole lot of water to grow, right? No. Fogne grows in an area called the Sahel. You know, Senegal is south of the Sahara. Yeah. And it's dry and arid. But Fogne grows so easily there. You know, it's like one of the fastest maturing grain that requires very little water. It's rain fad, but it just requires the first rain.

26:15And after that, even if there was no other rain coming or the rain is inconsistent, like it's the case right now with climate change, fognon is guaranteed to grow. There's a nickname for fognon. They call it the lazy farmer's crop for that reason. Because what the farmers do is when the first rain comes, they just throw the seed. They don't even till the soil. They don't really do any work to the soil. They just throw the seeds, like broadcasting it. and then they can just go and sleep for two months and come back and harvest the foigno. That's how easy it is to grow. And in addition to that, the most important part is the agriculture of foigno help to regenerate the soil because it has deep roots that add nutrients to the soil.

26:58So they create aeration in the soil, essentially. Exactly, exactly, exactly. And you don't have to churn it up with tractors, which releases carbon, right? You can just, those deep roots aerate the soil. Exactly. And when they harvest it, they just cut the top. The roots stay in the soil and eventually it adds nutrients to the soil. And not only that, Fonio is a nutrition powerhouse, like you mentioned. It's gluten-free and has so many properties. One of them being very important is it has, it's called a low glycemic index. Good for diabetics. Exactly. So there's like, I mean, there's so much going for that grain.