Advice Line with Angie Hicks of Angi

27:14Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Angie Hicks. She's the co-founder of Angie. It's a brand you turn to for all of your home improvement and maintenance help. What do you say, Angie? Should we take another call? Great. Welcome to the advice line on How I Built This You Run with me and Angie Hicks. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Well, hello, Guy. Hi, Angie. I'm Diane O 'Connor. I'm the founder and CEO of Westin Table. We are a Boston-based e-commerce platform that is seeking to change the way that people open their wallet and shop online.

27:57and we have decided that we want this marketplace to be the go-to place for living, giving, and entertaining. All right, and you sell sort of home goods, right? Furnishings and even some furniture. We do. We sell very little furniture, to be honest with you. We sell mostly tabletop, entertaining things that you need, you know, things that make your house a home, Beautiful artwork, a ton of vintage items from around the world. A lot of American and women produced goods. Oh, cool. All right. So it's called Weston Table. Are you in Weston, Massachusetts? Yes, I am. I see. Okay, that makes perfect sense now.

28:38All right. From what I understand, you launched this in 2020. Were you in that field? Were you in home goods and home decor before you started this e-commerce business? No way. I was raising five children, a couple of dogs. So you had been raising your kids and you jumped back into sort of, you know, the outside workforce? I did. I was working for a big investment advisor for many years before I had children. Then I stopped working altogether to have these five kids. then they started going off to college and I was, you know, somebody who had a lot of energy. So I said, I'm going to put that everything I've learned being a parent to work doing a business.

29:27Wow. I just want to say, I love that so much. And if you listen to the show, you know how much I love founders who are over 45, over 50, which is to Cynthia Tice, 57 started Lily's chocolate, sold it for$425 million 10 years later, because people think founders are like 22, 23, and it's not true. Most first-time founders average age is 39, 40. You started this business when you were in your 50s. I love that. It's awesome. And everybody listening should know it is never too late. It's never too late, but it just means I need to get there faster. So I'm well on my way. Okay, all right, good. But you're coming with all this experience as a parent.

30:06I mean, managing a household. Talk about real-world experience. That's no joke. It is. I started with, you know, myself and then another employee, and now I'm up to 10 or 11 full-time employees plus offshore teams, and it's pretty exciting. So you started this in 2020, and now how have you done this all online, direct-to-consumer? It's remarkable. Well, I think we are meeting a place in the market where people are responding to. Um, they're, you know, during COVID people were stuck in their homes and they basically had their husbands and children and Amazon as their best friends. And, um, I loved, you know, I, and I still love Amazon, but I got to thinking about all the things I missed on the outside world.

30:54And what I really missed was that beautiful window shopping experience, that sort of casualness of just, you know, making your house a home by going out into the world and finding things that speak to you in your travels, in your life. And I wanted to take my artistic talent and turn it into a website. All right. So before we bring in Angie, what is the question you brought for us today? Well, I guess, Angie, I'm super curious because I know there came a point when you decided you guys, in order to enter some of these bigger places, you needed to take on investors. I'm a national brand already.

31:34How do you make that decision to give some of the control, or do I even have to give some of that control to someone else to really skyrocket this into the next level? All right. Angie, first of all, thoughts or questions for Diane? When you say you want to, when you want to give up control, is it, are you thinking about fundraising? Are you thinking about kind of running the business? Like which area are you are you kind of contemplating the most right now? Well, I think this is a really deep question for me because at my heart, I'm a creative person. I was trained as a financial person, but my heart is with the creative.

32:16And in order to really see the dream completely come to fruition, I need to spend more time finding ways to entertain people. And that's really difficult when I'm CFO, CEO, HR, and finding a way that I could focus on what I'm really good at and give up the things I'm not good at. And by finding a partner or an investor that would take this journey along with me. Like you said, you have to be careful about who you pick, but is it necessary? You know, like, when's the right time? Diane, do you mind giving us a sense of what your revenue is right now? Just$5 million. Wow. Okay. So you've really scaled this quickly, which is awesome.

33:08Are you talking about, I mean, in your perfect world, would you want to have a CEO and that would free you up to kind of focus on the creative side and the things that maybe you enjoy doing more? Yes, 100%. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important to know, like knowing what you're good at, knowing what you want to do. I mean, you commented that you came out of finance. Like, I know it's easy for you to do the books, but it's not necessary for you to do the books. You need to be able to read them, understand them. And I have no concern that you're going to be able to do that. No one's pulling anything over on you.

33:46but just because you can doesn't mean you should. So, you know, finding people that can kind of take some of those tasks off of your plate, that just allows you to do things. My best example is I used to buy all of our media because I could not, not because it was like, I mean, you know, I kind of found it fun or whatever. I was getting ready to have my second child and my second child was born in the spring when I would buy all the media. And, you know, I was going to take a whopping six weeks off with my new one. And so I had to give someone else that job. And you know, that break and have being forced to make that decision was one of the best things that happened.

34:25We got better rates because she just wanted to make sure she kind of knocked it out of the park. And I didn't buy media anymore, which meant I could spend my time doing things that were more valuable to the organization. The cool thing is, is I think we're at a space right now where if we brought someone in and they wanted to be a partner, and I mean a true partner, an investor partner, somebody who's willing to put what I've put into the business and do that as an equal, is kind of exciting to me. I have people in my family saying, no, no, no, keep it as a family business. And I'm like, yeah, but you don't have to run it.

35:00So, you know, you don't have a say right now because you're not doing the heavy lifting here. I think that it's an interesting, I mean, they're interesting arguments on both sides, right? Like we did an episode with Mike Sinyard, who started Specialized Bikes. And it was really, you know, he ran it for a long time. And then he was encouraged to bring in professionals to scale it. And that did not work out well at all. It almost tanked the company. This is a cautionary tale. And he went back and retook it and retook it over. And now, you know, and then he went back to running it. But we have plenty of examples where people brought on others, operators who had different skill sets and really were able to realize the vision of the founder and to take it to the next level.

35:45And I think that to me it's that balance. It's like interviewing, spending time with that person, months maybe, having lots of conversations, but then also building in the infrastructure that incentivizes that person to stay and realize the vision and the project. I mean, we had this story with Kava. Kava is now a national food brand. The three, you know, the original founders were, you know, Greek-American buddies who had a restaurant. And eventually, you know, many years into the business, when they were kind of, you know, small scale, they found somebody who wanted to join them. And he helped scale that business into a national brand.

36:25And it's been a phenomenal partnership for all of them. It's exciting to think that that's the direction that we're headed in. And watching Angie start at the very bottom in 100 square foot, I don't know, office space. And I think, yeah, you know, I've got about 100 square feet here. There is definitely excitement for the future. But finding the partner, I think, is definitely it. It sounds, Angie, to me that you found a partner right off the bat. I did. I did. So I had my co-founder and then he eventually joined the business as the CEO about three years after we started. So, you know, I had an easier path on that journey because I had an advisor that was, you know, wanting to step in.

37:09So that worked out perfectly and kind of let him kind of take that kind of scale and let me focus on the things that I enjoyed focusing on. So it was a good balance. You know, one thing you might also think about as you're kind of talking about these interviews, I mean, if you're looking for a CEO, Maybe, you know, like you could go out looking for a CEO or you could go out looking for like a chief operating officer and finding someone that can kind of come in and then, you know, kind of work their way into the business. And then, you know, maybe, you know, in a couple of years, they take that CEO seat as you guys develop comfort around that as well.

37:45Indeed. Diane O 'Connor, the company, the brand is called Westin Table. Congrats on your success. Good luck. It sounds like you are well on your way to scaling this thing. Well, when I am scaled, I hope you have me back as a guest again. I hope so, too. Thank you so much, Angie. I am a big fan. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Diane. Best of luck. Thank you. Take it easy. Bye, Guy. Thank you. Bye. Yeah. It's amazing how little, and I'm going to sound like a complete caveman here, But how like little things like a tablecloth or table mats just like completely transform a room, which I've just discovered because we just got a bunch of them on our dining room table.

38:29And I noticed that something was different. I said, oh, this dining room table is so good. I said to my wife, she said, yeah, because I bought new table mats or placemats. Right. I think sometimes people think they have to go big to make a big difference. And it's sometimes just the littlest things. I mean, if I lived by myself, I would just have like, I don't know, some cardboard boxes and Ikea couches. But we have like blankets draped over the sofa or like strategically placed pillows that I would never think of. But they look really nice. They look really good. They do. Right. They do. All right.

39:05We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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41:39Welcome back to the Device Line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Angie Hicks of Angie. Let's bring in our next caller. Hello, caller. Welcome to the Device Line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hey, Guy and Angie. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Keisha, and I am from Kansas City. And my business is Bridge the Gap Spanish, and what we do is we help adults learn Spanish. So we match our learners with native speakers to provide opportunities to practice and improve Spanish conversation.

42:15And then we also provide grammar and language coaching to help during their journey. Awesome. Welcome to the show. This is all online? Yes, it's all virtual, all online. And so tell me a little bit about how you started this business. So I actually learned Spanish through an immersion program in Oaxaca, Mexico. And I did that program right after college. And I had the amazing opportunity when I was there to start teaching ESL, English as a second language. And I fell in love. Like I didn't know what a passion was until I started teaching English. And I was like, this is it. This is what I was born to do.

42:54And so when I moved back to the States, I helped a nonprofit in my area start their ESL program. And I realized, hey, I could be doing this on my own and helping people learn Spanish. And I just saw a gap with adults who were learning Spanish, but didn't feel confident speaking it. And so for me, I had the opportunity to go and be immersed in everything like that. But for them, you can't pick up and go to another country. So anyways, I decided to help fill that gap with our program. That's awesome. Tell me a little bit about how the business model works. How do you – is it a monthly fee? And how many classes do you get a week?

43:32And yeah. Yeah. So it is month to month for our learners. We match them with a native speaker. And then they pay month to month to meet with that native speaker one to four times a week, depending on the package that they choose. And then the grammar and the coaching really automatically comes with the program. So we don't charge extra for that. Got it. And from what I understand, you kind of really relaunched this earlier this year. So still early days. How, I mean, how are you, how have you been able to find customers, students? Yeah. So that's really how we relaunched is because I had started it technically in 2020, but wasn't getting any traction.

44:17And what it reminded me of when I listened to Angie's How I Built This was automatically this one thing brought in tons of customers for you. I believe it was an ad or something like that. And so for me, it was Instagram at the beginning of the year. all of a sudden, well, at the end of 2023, I started using Instagram. I was like, man, okay, let me make some ads. And the ads just started bringing in new clients. And it was just like, okay, this is something. I've got something here. Amazing. And tell us what your question is for us. Yeah. So my question is really what to prioritize during periods of growth.

44:57Because I feel like, especially this year as I've grown so much, I went from about five clients to now about 28. And it's just like, okay, like now I need to do this and do that. And it's just so much at once. So how do you prioritize during moments of growth with so many moving pieces? Cool. All right. We'll get to your question a sec. Angie, imagine you've got some questions for Keisha. Yeah. So tell me, explain to us like how you're spending your time now. Like how do you break down your time? I think that would be helpful. Yeah, that's a really great question. So I actually spend a lot of my time focusing on the interaction with new clients.

45:37So really, quite a bit of time on Instagram, because that's where we've gotten most of our clients from. So making new reels and things like that, and reaching out and making sure that they can reach out to us. And then I also spend a lot of my time communicating with current clients. So obviously, I want to make sure that they're fulfilled. So meeting one-on-one with some of our grammar students, I realized very early on that I can't meet with everyone. So I just started making grammar videos. And so that's where I spend a lot of my time is on those two pieces. Keisha, I'm curious about, before we get into your question, tell me a little bit about how you are differentiating what you offer from, I mean, there are, you know, there are big companies out there that have been around for a long time.

46:29I think of like Italki, I think it's called, that offer one-on-one online training in many, many languages with people around the world. So how do you, what are you offering to attract people to your, to what you're offering that makes it more appealing? Honestly, I feel like it's how we tailor the program to each individual learner. So a big piece of our program is the coaching aspect because all of our learners are adults. But what I feel like we do that's special is we really hone in on what's going to be best to help you learn, not just in the class, but even outside of the class. And how can we coach you through that and making you more comfortable to speak Spanish outside of just your classroom.

47:16And then I think the other thing that makes us different is we match our learners. So we, so typically with those programs, you can pick like, oh, this is the person that I want to work with. And, you know, I like this about them, but I meet with every single prospective student and I say, okay, let me learn more about you. Then I specifically match them with a native speaker that I think will work best with them. And do you know how long your students typically, do you have enough history with students yet to kind of get a sense? Is this something that someone does for a month, three months, six months?

47:51You know, because that'll also just help you kind of think about how you can scale your marketing if you know what basically the lifetime value that customer is going to be. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think that that's something that I need to think about as I'm, you know, working on this. But most of our learners, they stay with us for at least, I would say, at least four months. And we have many of our learners that stay even six months or more. Because then that allows you to start thinking about ways that you can market. You're like, hey, if I can spend 10 % of the revenue I'm going to generate over four months to acquire a customer, I'm just kind of making this up off the cuff here.

48:32you know, then you can start thinking about what types of marketing vehicles you might want to explore because it feels like you're at the point where like, hey, I feel like I have a model that's working as far as I've got once they're in, I like the high touch experience and the kind of custom matching that you're doing and those types of things. So now it's the question is like, how do you go from 30 students to 60 students to 120 students? Yeah, exactly. So I'm curious, question for you, Angie. I'm curious to know, when you were in the early days with Angie's List, what percentage was going towards acquiring new members versus helping those who were currently with you?

49:19Because I think that's where my struggle is. Yeah. So we did have the benefit. We patterned Angie's List after another business that had been around for about 70 years. So we had the benefit of understanding that business model, and we ended up buying that company. So in that scenario, we knew these paid members were going to stick around for, you know, kind of five years, six years, so we could build out a pretty robust LTV, lifetime value. And then, you know, I used 10%. That was about what we were spending to acquire a new homeowner. We're like, hey, we'll spend 10 % up front. And we knew we were underwater when we did that in year one, for sure.

49:59But we knew as we scaled that we had kind of a path on that money that we knew that it was going to return. And we were very diligent about making sure we were proving that out. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, like being so in the early days, like, like figuring out those models, I think it's going to be very central. Yeah. So yeah, that's a great point. Tell me a little bit about what you're doing on social media. Are you making videos? I am. That's what was the game changer for me. I used to just make videos with words and things like that. But then I suddenly decided one day, hey, I'm going to put my face on here.

50:41And people loved that. And so, yeah, I'm typically sitting at a computer and it's a reel that says something about, hey, have you been struggling with your Spanish? Check our program out or different point of views and things like that. I wonder if you also think about, you know, if the videos are working and you as the speaker on the videos, what about having a quick snippet of a student and one of the native speakers? I mean, you want to kind of get to the kind of what's the difference in your program. And I think what you're saying kind of your secret sauce is the fact that it's very much tailored and kind of focused on kind of real world.

51:22and so how do you show that that's becomes my question so I'm wondering if there's a chance for you to think about almost a testimonial type thing but not a testimonial because I think the real secret here is actually the interaction between the the coach and the and the student so kind of the you know giving someone a glimpse of what it was like for them to be a learner right so that they have something to compare it to when they're out looking at kind of competitors that they might be using it's like what makes you different yeah yeah Yeah. So a quick question for you guys. Now, so I mentioned that Instagram has been my main source of clients recently.

52:01How do I know when to pursue other avenues like diversifying my marketing? Because right now I feel like I'm getting most of my learners from there. So should I wait till that's tapped out? Or should I try and diversify right now and do other things? Or how should I navigate that? I never give up on something that works. Okay, but you should always be testing into the next thing. So you know, so if it's one of those where it's like, hey, this really works. So maybe you're spending 80 or 90 % of your marketing dollars there, because you can just kind of it's it's performing. But you always want to be thinking about what's next, because you know, marketing moves fast, and you don't want to get caught flat footed.

52:41So you want to know kind of what you're you want to have a handful of vehicles that work well. Okay. Well, that's helpful. And yeah, that's something, a project that I need to work on is figuring out what those other avenues could be for us right now. Yeah. And it could be other social media. I mean, it could be like, okay, now I'm going to try TikTok next, or I'm going to try YouTube or whatever. So it doesn't have to be kind of like I'm going completely different kind of vehicle, but just make sure that you've got some portion of your budget into exploring. Yeah. Having a little fun, fun exploratory budget.

53:14Exactly. I love it. Keisha, good luck. The brand is called Bridge the Gap Spanish. We'll be cheering you on and can't wait to see what you do. Thank you so much. Thanks for calling in. Thanks. All right. It's really amazing how all of these opportunities have cropped up in the last 10 years. And really, I mean, my kids do online language. We went to Italy this summer. my wife, who's super disciplined, did three months of Italian with somebody in Italy at like six in the morning, like three times a week before we went to Italy. Oh my gosh, that's awesome. I'm like, we're looking to go to France in the spring.

53:56And I think I am our only family member that has any French. And it's, you know, it's a good 35 years old. So if it's left to me, we're out of luck. So maybe one of my kids will decide to help us out. Yeah, for sure. Angie, before Before I let you go, I want to ask you about something that I ask a lot of guests who come on the show, which is you're coming to the table with so much experience now. And so you have the benefit of perspective and hindsight, which is, by the way, anyone listening, this is why we very rarely have guests on the show who are under 30. Because not that they're not smart or interesting, even if they made hundreds of millions of dollars.

54:40It's just you can't buy time. You can't buy like life experience. And so we often will say, hey, come back and let's talk to you when you're 40. Right. And we've made a couple of exceptions, but generally it's that time scale that we're looking for. You have it. Right. And so I wonder when you think about, you know, looking back at where you started and where you were, what do you, is there anything you wish you'd known back then or that would have been helpful for you when you were starting out that, that, you know, could have, I don't know, helped you get through some tough moments? Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is just like, being open to learning new things.

55:17I think we stress too much about things. Most of the things we worry about don't come to pass. And I think especially as a young person, I'm like, are there things I wish I knew more of? I'm like, if I would have known more about business, I might have bailed, right? Because I was like, I knew what I was doing. There was a bit of ignorance is bliss. But I think, you know, not taking things too seriously. Obviously, sometimes, you know, I tell the team a lot and I have for years. I'm like, we're not running the ER. No one's dying here. So let's kind of let's not make these decisions so, so heavy.

55:51Let's not stress so much because we need to, you know, kind of make our decisions and move on and, you know, kind of learn from them. Yeah, for sure. Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. Thank you so much for coming on the advice line. Thanks, guys. It was great to reconnect. And by the way, if you guys haven't heard Angie's original How I Built This Episode, got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. People started calling you and you are the only person manning the phones? I'm literally in like a hundred square foot office space.

56:28We didn't have a phone system. We had a phone. And so when we needed a second line, we got a second phone. So I do remember times where I'd be like sitting on the floor in the office, literally like toggling between two physical phones with no hold button.

57:03on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with. And hopefully we can help you with them and make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Chris Messini with music composed by Ramtin Erablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Sam Paulson, Devin Schwartz, and Neva Grant.

57:51I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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