Advice Line with Chris Ruder of Spikeball

26:04And it needed something to get outside and not be in my computer screen. And I fell in love with the sport and the community, so much so that I wanted to create a business out of it to uplift and support other runners. Where were you working in tech? I worked at Google for a couple of years and then startups in fintech since then. And so you completely left that behind and said, you know what, I'm going to start this running gear brand that has like positive messages that you can basically attach or wear or whatever. Exactly. I had my son two years ago, and that's when I had the choice of starting my own business or going back to just a corporate job.

26:44But it was kind of a you only live once kind of thing. So I wanted to take this opportunity to see what I can do with this business. And so besides the name, like you can pin your name to your bib, what other things do you guys sell? Yeah, so our kind of next most popular line is shoe bags. because, you know, runners have these really expensive sneakers now. And so I have introduced a travel sneaker bag that is kind of more fun than traditional kind of, you know, just plastic bags that people put their sneakers in for travel. Got it. Okay. And Cindy, what's your question for us today? Yeah. So, you know, my initial product, the Yell My Name Bib Kit, is very, very niche.

27:27Even in the running community, you know, it's only for like the major marathons. So I'm looking to expand into other products like these shoe bags and, you know, other kind of race day travel kits. And so, you know, I want to make them just like not plain and boring like running gear is currently. And so what advice would you have for me to market a product that's like fun and uplifting and the designs are their kind of main differentiator? All right, cool. I'm going to bring you in, Chris. You who has created a light-up spike ball kit that enables people to play in the dark, so you know a little bit about accessorizing things.

28:06Do you have any questions for Cindy before we tackle her question? Number one, I wish this product was around years ago when I ran the Chicago Marathon because if it were, maybe I would have broken the four-hour mark, which was my goal, and I did not, unfortunately. You know what? We shouldn't laugh. Four hours. Super impressive. Super impressive, yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I'll take it. Number one, I love it. Can you share a bit on the sales mix? So is the vast majority of your sale the name tag? Is it the shoe bag? Or what's the general breakout there? Yeah, I would say 95 % is coming from the Yell My Name bib kit.

28:47And I introduced other products, but the main next category were these shoe bags. but it's not very big right now. It's about 5%. Got it. And can you give us a sense of how, have you broken$25 ,000 in sales? Yeah, we have. And so we're seeing a lot of growth this year, especially. We've grown year over year, 50%. And then we're looking to grow a lot more in the future. And selling entirely direct to consumer. Entirely direct to consumer. I've done a little bit of pop-up shops, a little bit of wholesale, but mainly on my website, Instagram. And we started doing Amazon as well. And you're financing this whole thing yourself.

29:27Exactly. And so presumably your budget is pretty tight, right? Because you can't spend tens of thousands of dollars or maybe even thousands of dollars on marketing. Yeah, exactly. I want to keep it lean and I don't want to overspend. I want to do, you know, kind of spend wisely as well. But it sounds like the shoe bag is really where you see the growth. Yeah, I do see there's potential there. And it's also a bigger market opportunity, right? There's not a ton of marathoners out there who are running major marathons, but everybody has shoes, like even, you know, non-runners like travel with sneakers and things like that.

30:01But I do see that there's an opportunity for demand and also, you know, for gifting. Yeah, I mean, this is actually a not, it's not an uncommon problem. I would say this is in a focus group of one, namely me, which is every time I pack and travel, I'm like, oh, do I put my shoes this way? I don't want the bottom of my shoes touching my clothes. So like, how do I pack them? And I know people listening to this right now are picturing this because they're going through the same thing. You're packing your suitcase. You're like, I don't want the bottom of my shoes, that sticky gum or dirt on them to touch my clothing.

30:36So I'm going to I'm going to angle them like this. But but a shoe bag, a proper shoe bag that would still give me a room in my suitcase. That makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. And the other trend that I'm trying to hop on is that their grocery bags are being banned from stores and most people put them in grocery bags. But really to be more sustainable and kind of eco-friendly, like a reusable travel shoe bag makes a lot of sense. All right. So, Chris, as somebody who cultivated these niche groups, you know, found out who's buying a church youth groups. And you're like, well, let's lean into that.

31:12And PE teachers, let's lean into that. But I mean, right now we're thinking about runners because Cindy's a runner. But I mean, there's got to be other folks you should be targeting. Yeah. I mean, I would, I don't want to say go deep and wide, but I guess as you're still in the early days and exploring, I think that's probably the route. So one, how many marathon runners are there in the U.S., let alone worldwide, but I'd say start in the U.S. I'm assuming it's massive. I was just in Chicago recently and it was a few days after the marathon and seeing the amount of people walking around with branded gear.

31:49Yeah, it was even like four or five days after the race and people were still wearing it. I was seeing it everywhere. So just like you go to a concert and you have no problem spending$50 on a t-shirt because it's this special event. I think like people are in a different frame of mind around these events, especially when it's a massive thing like a marathon. So can you do more on-site sales there? Or maybe go there and witness with a pen and a paper, like what other product ideas can you get? That would be my version of going deep. And then the wide is what other events have bibs or like the name kit?

32:33I think of mountain bike races. All triathlons, all kinds of things. All that, yeah. So is that the wide version? And with the shoe carrier, I mean, my God, any place that has cleats, running shoes, whatever, can you make a different version for each sport? And I think as long as you're making something where you've identified a need and you're not like, oh, I think this could be cool. I'll just do it because I like it. In my experience, identify needs that other people have or a problem that you think you can solve and run straight in that direction. Yeah, I agree. I also think that, and Cindy, you probably already thought of this, but I do think that runners are a tribe, a really passionate tribe, as you know, you're a runner yourself.

33:24And I feel like to get to that tribe, you've got to be in the shops too. You've got to be able to get into those shops. And many of these shops are independently owned. The proprietors in there, they're interested in showcasing things that are going to be interesting to their customers. And I would really, you're in Boston, I imagine there are amazing running stores there. Have you gone to any of them? Yes, I've reached out to probably half of the running stores in the United States. And there's been some good reception on some of my smaller products. But yeah, I guess the question would be is like, any kind of tips in getting into these stores that may not initially show interest?

34:06We weren't in any stores for our first five years, 100 % spikeball.com. For us, we were so focused on building the brand, building the community, and building sales at spikeball.com. Eventually, all the stores called us. When Dick Sporting Goods reached out and said, we'd like to carry your product, I thought it was a joke or somebody messing with me. Same thing when Walmart did it, when Target did it, and all sorts of these small mom-and-pop toy shops and sporting goods stores. So from what I understand, that's not normal, but man, did it work for us. Because I think if I would have called them in the early days, they would have said, what is this trampoline?

34:51Nobody knows what it is. And I think what resulted in them calling us, they saw this sort of cult-like following. They saw this quirky thing that people were into it. It wasn't Chris Reuter trying to tell them the store that this was an amazing thing. There was all this outside validation on social media and elsewhere proving that the world is into this. The more of that you can get, the easier it will be to get into stores. Yeah, that makes sense. It sounds like build the brand and they will come. I also think there's value in seeing if you can just meet somebody face to face. If one of these store owners locally would be willing to meet with you just to see you and to understand your passion and that you're legit, you're a runner.

35:39You're not like some, you know, dilettante coming into this. This is your passion. And this is a problem that you are solving for yourself and you believe for other runners. And I think there's a lot of value in just trying to go one start at a time in person, at least initially. I love that idea. I got to try that. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Cindy, the brand is called Pen & Paces. Thanks so much for calling in. Congrats. Thank you. Thanks, Cindy. All right. We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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38:56Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Chris Reuter, the founder of Spikeball. So, Chris, let's bring in our next caller. Sounds great. Hello, welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hey, Guy. Hi, Chris. I hope you guys are both doing well. My name is Nigel Lewis, and I'm calling from Rockaway Beach, New York currently. I'm the founder of Station Surf Shop. I started back in 2016, and we're a traditional surf shop catering to the New York City surfer.

39:33We sell surfboards, wetsuits, wax, leashes, everything you would find at a normal surf shop if you lived in southern or northern California or Hawaii, you would find here. You can take the subway to the beach here. So we do rentals like you would expect. We do a unique thing called surfboard lockers because a lot of people in New York have small apartments or husbands or wives that don't want surfboards in the apartment. But what I'm most proud of with the shop has been just the ability for people who kind of look like me to walk in and see someone that doesn't traditionally look like who they would see behind a surf shop counter.

40:10So that's been what I'm most proud of and being able to facilitate that a little bit for this community. Awesome. Well, thank you for calling into the show, Nigel. All right. So Rockaway Beach Surf Shop sounds like an awesome community. Tell me, how long have you been surfing? Yeah. So I grew up surfing. I'm originally from Barbados. I've been surfing since I was 10. And it's slightly different there because in Barbados, it's a water lifestyle. So I'm actually very used to being in the ocean and swimming, diving, surfing, that type of stuff. And I always think of the Ramones when I think of Rockaway Beach.

40:43Yeah, I think everybody does. Everybody does. Yeah, I'm probably not the only one. So and what's your question for us today? So I started this business and brought in some partners to help me just kind of financially get it going. My background is pretty deep in the surf and skate world. I've worked for a lot of brands. I've been a sales rep and been into a lot of surf doors up and down the East Coast. That's what I did for work for quite a number of years. So I understand what that looks like. But I financially just, you know, I grew up pretty poor and kind of just grinded to make what I had.

41:17So when I opened the shop, we did pretty well. But my partners always seem to leave just because they have other interests that they're involved in and they're not committed to the grind. So my last partner left and I had to buy him out and get it done. But it put me into a spot where I unfortunately had to close the shop. I'm in the process now of reopening. We were lucky enough to secure a partnership with Paragon Sports in New York City in Union Square to do a pop-up. Like, they liked what we were doing. They heard the story, and they were like, hey, we'd love to give you a home until you figure it out.

41:48But this was a pretty important space for me and for the community and for all the organizations that we supported. And it's gone. And it hit me very hard. And I have the drive to kind of get it going again, but I'm just starting over, you know, like financially trying to get the money back up. and this time I'm looking to do it with no partner. So how do you deal with loss? Our numbers were good and it didn't close due to lack of business being good. It's more just the amount of payout I had to do. I couldn't sustain it after giving out that much money. How do you deal with that to where you feel motivated?

42:25So you had the store, the station surf shop in Rockaway Beach. You closed it. When did you close it? In December. In December. Okay. And now you're trying to reopen it. Yes. And it was successful and people loved it and you sold apparel and stuff. And I'm actually, I see you have an Instagram page up still. But now you're trying to figure out how to reopen it. And your question is, how do you kind of plow through failure? So first of all, I really appreciate you calling it because people call into the show with like, hey, how do I scale this and how do I market this? And you're like, we failed.

43:08And how do I recover from that? And it's such a critical question because a lot of people think how I built this is about success. Oh, success. It's not. It's actually about setbacks, mistakes, and failures. And I say this over and over again because I think the best entrepreneurs, Chris Reuter is one of them who's had many failures on his path to success. Without those failures, you don't learn. Yeah. A lot of big shows and media, you'll see – you'll only hear the positive and, oh, our growth chart was nothing but up and to the right the entire time. That's BS. That's BS. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so I could do a couple episodes of just the last couple of years, what we've been going through, and holy smokes, it's hard.

43:55And not everybody is cut out to be an entrepreneur, so I applaud you for giving a shot, and seemingly you're dusting yourself off and saying, I'm going to try it again, and that's incredible. Nigel, the first thing they need is a pep talk, okay, and then we're going to get down to brass tacks here. I think about John Foley. John Foley was on our show in 2019. Okay. And he founded Peloton and Peloton was the hottest company during the pandemic. You couldn't get a Peloton. At one point, he was worth almost a billion dollars and he lost almost all of it, actually. And I recently read an article in the Wall Street Journal where he basically said, look, I lost virtually all my money.

44:41But he has started a new company around rugs, around sort of disrupting that market. And I love the energy and the spirit there because a lot of people laughed at him. Oh, John Foley. He doesn't care. He's like, no, no, it's fine. I had a setback. Peloton is amazing. Lost it all. But I learned a lot. I'm going to bounce back, and I'm going to build this next thing. And he's fully into it. I actually think that's really inspiring because a lot of people are rooting against him. But I wouldn't, you know, especially given his track record. And it sounds like you had a really good track record here.

45:14I mean, seven years in business, sustainable store. Okay, you sat back. It was, you know, there are a variety of reasons. Most businesses don't make it past five years. But the fact that you've got a second chance now, that's really exciting. And so what I would say is really think about what you learned. Really spend time doing a self-critique in a very constructive way. Write down the things that you don't want to do again. And really use that seven years, those seven years, as a gift that you were given, this gift to know what not to do in the second coming of this, right? the rebirth of it, right?

45:58Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, it makes complete sense. And the thing with myself is that I call my philosophy, I'm a realist. So if this thing wasn't working, I get it, right? And I'm smart enough to understand that there's many factors that affect a brick and mortar retail store. And I address those in my business plan and so on. And I really appreciate what you said, because it does feel like I've learned a lot. and I am looking to dust myself off and come back, honestly, because the community is asking for it. I mean, there's three other surf shops here and everyone is like, when are you reopening?

46:33And the emails are coming in and Paragon has been doing relatively well with the pop-up that we're doing there. So, you know, I feel like the writing's on the wall. It's like, hey, this is just a setback, step back up and keep going. But, you know, sometimes just the motivation for that, you know, like the pep talk was helpful and I definitely will take your advice and literally write down the things that I think maybe I could do better going forward. But yeah, I was just always curious what the mindset is from people who are currently successful having failed to get back on that horse and really kind of not feel just beaten down on it.

47:13And then also too, like financially too, how do you deal with that? Because once you fail, like everything crumbles, right? Your personal credit is tied into the business part of it if you're just a single person doing it. And there are all these things I'm trying to navigate. And it's a little bit harder, but it's weird that you said have something to prove. But it's almost like I have something to prove to everyone who thought, oh, well, I knew this wasn't going to work. There's way more people that think it will and will work. So I'm just, again, trying to navigate that and understand the best way to go about it.

47:44I so love that you have a community rallying around you. I love that you have a partner like Paragon. Our product has been in Paragon for years and they are fantastic. I so love that store. If you've never been, it's this quirky, massive sporting goods store in Manhattan. and what you have is I think what most brands would kill for you have people asking for the product essentially your store you're down they're rallying around you and this comeback is not this like fabricated thing that a fancy ad campaign brings you back it's gonna be the will of the people yeah so I think I think the big the question going through my mind is how can you leverage this group of people that want you to come back?

48:33You know, one area of my mind goes to financially. So is there a Kickstarter or something that you get started? Or is it a private conversation with a few of these folks that... Become shareholders. Yeah, may be able to buy a chunk of the company. And, you know, you're asking about finances. Is there a CFO that works for some other company but loves your store that would be your wingman or wingwoman to kind of help you? And I'm guessing there's a lot of gold in this community. And if you start asking questions, it sounds like they'd love to help you out. Nigel, I think – let me ask you a question because we're probably about the same age.

49:10And I think oftentimes people in our generation have a harder time asking for help. Is that fair to say? It is. I mean we did a GoFundMe and we got – we raised I think like$26 ,000 within the first week of it. And that covered any like past due rent. I paid off some vendors. And I'm stubborn in the sense that I didn't want to file for bankruptcy because I have been a sales rep and I know how that affects accounts. But, yes, I have a hard time asking because in my mind – and, you know, everyone works hard for their money. So I don't want to be like, hey, why don't you help me when obviously – No, no, but that's not what you're asking.

49:46You're saying I'm going to give you – you're not saying why don't you help me. You're going to say I have an opportunity for you. Right. It's to be a shareholder in this. See, what's so cool about what you're talking about is surfing is, to me, and I'm in California, it's very intimidating, right? I wouldn't feel comfortable walking into a surf shop and saying, hey, I don't really know what I'm doing. Can you help me? Like, I want a place that's like, awesome, cool, let's go. And that's what you're talking about. Yes. You're saying this is like, it's like, what was that movie, Dodgeball? It's like the gym for everyone else.

50:23It is. And also the other part of this that I didn't really think about, because again, in Barbados, the majority of surfers are Blacks. I don't think about this. But in America and in New York, we're the minority in the surfing community. So my aesthetic of the store wasn't, you know, this California-based. You'd walk in and it'd be Bob Marley playing in the background. And we'd have a little bit of rock and a little bit of soul, some James Brown. And I think people walked in and, like you said, they didn't feel intimidated. And whenever we spoke to them, it was like, hey, Station family. It was always a family conversation because I wanted you to walk in.

50:56Your feet are wet and sandy. Yes. You know, you have your board stripping of water because I'll just mop it up after. It's not that serious. And I think that connected. And I know it did. I can't say I think it did. And that's why I'm so, like, gung-ho to do it. But, you know, sometimes it's just good to hear the feedback from people who've kind of been through it. And, you know, you just need that pep talk, like you said. Yeah. And as Chris said, now you've got to start to harness that energy from the people. Like, we want you back. And so every time you hear that, you've got to say, OK, can we have a conversation?

51:28I'm thinking about raising money from the community as stakeholders, everybody who have a stake in this business. Got it.

52:05I'd never heard of such a thing, but man, that sounds cool. And do you, if you think of the, when the store was open, what parts of it worked really well and what parts didn't? I'm assuming you've already thought of all this, but obviously whatever didn't work. Okay. Maybe trim that, but you know, is there a way to expand the lockers? I don't know if that's a moneymaker or not, but I love it. I love the vibe that you describe of the shop also, you know, people with sandy feet walking in, music playing, Bob Marley, like that seems very unique for the surf culture. And, you know, New York being one of the fashion hubs of the world, where my mind is going is merch and apparel.

52:51Like there's kids in South Dakota wearing Quicksilver and all sorts of other surf brands that aren't within a thousand miles of an ocean, but they just love that culture. And And so is there a fashion designer you could work with that could learn your vibe, your brand, everything? And is that a new channel? I'm assuming you had t-shirts and hoodies and stuff. But could you multiply that times 100 and really run with that? I don't know. That kind of excites me. Yeah, no, it's great that you said that because that is because I'm like you guys have said, this is what I've been jotting down for the next iteration.

53:27And exactly what you said is what I'm thinking is people came to get station merchandise, you know, and the lockers are a great business because it's almost like a subscription model. You leave your board, we charge$150 a month, and we have 200 lockers, you know, and when they're full, it's awesome. And when they're half full, like it's still okay. But yes, I really appreciate the conversation. And, you know, a lot of these things that you guys have mentioned, I've been thinking about it, but to hear qualified people like yourselves kind of co-sign it. I don't know how qualified we are. Well, I will say, Guy, I am so honored to be on the show.

54:04I listened to almost every episode when I was starting my business because it gave me the motivation to understand that everyone started from somewhere. You know, some of these amazing guys that are multimillionaires now, you hear, oh, yeah, I lost my first shipment. and like it got held up in customs and you're like what you know so um i really appreciate it and i never thought that i would be on here but i really appreciate them well here you are yes you are yep nigel lewis of station surf shop um good luck congrats on on this i'm cheering you on appreciate it and when i get to to rockaway beach yes i'm going right to the station surf shop surf lesson on me surf lesson all right you too cool thanks nigel have a great day thank you Thank you, Nigel.

54:45Chris, before I let you go, I question I ask a lot of people who come on to join me on the advice line. What do you wish you knew at the beginning of starting your business that you now know that would have been helpful for you? Spend less, save more. That's great advice because it's very actionable. I love that. Chris, thank you so much for coming back onto the show. Great to have you. Thank you so much. This is fun. That's Chris Reuter, founder and CEO of Spikeball. And by the way, if you haven't heard Chris's original How I Built This Episode, you've got to go back and give it a listen. You can find a link to it in the podcast description.

55:19And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. At that time, I had no idea how much it was going to cost to manufacture. I had no idea how much to make a website. Back then, all websites were hand-coded, so they're really expensive to make. Packaging, marketing, et cetera. What did you think you needed? How much money did you think you needed to raise? We actually didn't set a number. We kind of just said, invest whatever you're comfortable losing because chances are very good that you're going to lose it. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter.

55:57You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com. Each week, it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well.

56:40This episode was produced by Sam Paulson, who also composed the music. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coates, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

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