Advice Line with Jamie Siminoff of Ring

26:22And this is a relatively new brand, and it's a brand that was started by – basically the story is it was started by an ex-journalist who discovered how chocolate farmers are exploited, and he wanted to create a more ethical chocolate brand. But from what I've learned, that isn't why the brand has been so successful. The story, you can see the story on the back of the bar, but I would go out on a limb and say most people aren't reading it. And the reason why the brand is successful is because it tastes really good and it looks like a cartoony chocolate. Like it's got this cartoony logo on the front and it's sold in the U.S.

27:04as well and around the world. And I think that while there's no question, there is a segment of the consumer market that is going to be interested in supporting what you do. I think your biggest value proposition is ginger plantain crunch is like these really interesting, unique flavors. I don't know. Jamie, what do you think about that? It's a balance. You know, my good friends of mine started Bull and Branch, Missy and Scott Tannen. And they sort of had a similar thing to you, which is like they found out about cotton and that cotton, the way it's grown and like this sort of like how it affects communities in the places it's grown in India.

27:44And so they did a good job early on of doing that. But Guy, to your point, I think people buy Bull and Branch sheets because they're great sheets. I didn't even know that story. That's right. I just knew that they make good sheets. But that was what was behind it. And I do like, I think there's something about authenticity behind a brand that matters. And so I love that it's not like you're just not trying to build like XYZ chocolate. But I do, I think with Guy, I think you're right. I think the consumer, sadly, like, maybe it's not sadly, but you're right. Like, they're going to like an interesting flavor of something.

28:19And that's probably going to trump any sort of, you know, story which helps. But maybe, I think you're right. No, I 100 % understand what you're saying. And I actually, I think as far as like my messaging initially, it was like, because of the reason I started it, it leaned a lot heavier on the impact aspect. But I've learned and it's starting to pivot more into like our, like our flavor profile. But I think what's challenging with that sometimes, and it feels like I'm competing on the same thing that any chocolate would be talking about. So sometimes it's challenging for me to see how to balance that.

28:55Yeah. And I'm trying to like, it is, that's the balance. And I try to look at some others like Bowlin Branch that have done this and just see how they've balanced it. It sounds like Tony Ciacoloni, it sounds like they've done a good job at that. You know, liquid death, which we, it's one of these ones I continue to talk about, that was death to plastic. Like he cared about killing plastic and plastic water bottles, but I would say 1 % of people know that. I didn't know that. So I built a huge brand. So, but I think that again, authenticity actually breeds something. There's something about having true authenticity that when you go into these brands, like at ring, we cared about making neighborhoods safer.

29:35I'm not sure if everyone who bought a ring knew that, but we really cared about that. Like that was something that was like super ingrained in what we did. And so I think there's something still about like having, like, hold onto that. Don't just because if it's just the ginger, whatever, sell, like if it's the flavors you figure out that are selling, like, I think still holding onto that is important. Your question though was around the pricing and accessibility. And that thing concerned me because it's like, you're trying to, like, on one hand, you're saying like, I'm doing all these premium things to help these communities.

30:03And on the other hand, you're like, I want to be the cheapest chocolate in the world. And it's like, it's like these things are just like, feel like they're just so distant. Yeah. And I think you're bringing up the fighting process that I go through. Essentially, I definitely don't want to be the cheapest. Primarily we've been selling online. And then more recently we just got into like our first small retail store and we just started actually trying to get into more stores. And I think as I've started that process, I'm starting to think through our pricing strategy. Where are you? Like if, if, uh, Hershey's is, I don't even know, like whatever, where, where are you?

30:41Yeah. So look, let's say Hershey's is like$2. The Tony's Chocoloni that Guy mentioned is maybe$5 and we're at$10.50 per bar. There's like a craft chocolate space where there are booths that are – Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot that are in that space. But I think my goal in starting this was to make this more accessible to people. So I'm struggling to figure out how to think about that. I think I'll get the price issue question in just a sec. But I think that because it's a premium product, I feel like you need to and you can elevate that a bit more. Right. Because I see you've got a video on your website, but I think there are a couple of things that I want to see.

31:24I want to see the factory. I want to see that where it's made. I want to see somebody pouring the liquid chocolate into the molds. And because premium chocolate, people are willing to pay for it. It's like wine, right? And I think you can just show us that a little bit more. People really, once they can see what you're paying for, it's handcrafted. It's made from the best quality. Like we pick, you know, we roast, we have the best farmers. This is different kind of chocolate that you're consuming. Yeah, that makes sense. That video was when we shot. we've talked about Kickstarter a little bit, but it was part of our Kickstarter campaign when we launched.

32:06So I think it's due for an upgrade for sure. Okay. Now, again, if you're too far outside of the premium side, like even, you know, there are price points that you can fall out of, but it sounds like Tony's Ciacalone might've figured out that balance between Hershey's and sort of like, they might be in that high volume, but higher margin. Like they figured out kind of that perfect sort of - And it took them some time, but yeah, they did, right? They're in that sort of mid-level price point. And you're not like – I just made chocolate chip cookies for friends recently, and I bought a really great chocolate and cut it up.

32:42And this is what you're selling. You're selling the kind of chocolate you'd serve at a dinner party after dinner with a glass of wine maybe. This is something that you would really savor. And I think that there's something to this idea that you could put on your label. Like, you know, the finest cocoa beans, the best roasters, the most premium ingredients, something like that where it just bam, bam, bam, bam, it just pops off the shelves if it's at Whole Foods. Yeah. Yeah. I think what I'm hearing from what you're both saying is like we are a premium product and it is definitely differentiated in the categories.

33:25What I was thinking about was like, I know in the long run, we probably want to get closer to like Tony Ciacoloni type of pricing. So should I lower that price now? Or is it what seemed more sustainable is like you start high and then as you increase the volume, then I'll be able to like lower it. I'll be a super hypocrite, you know, because it's like that's what I did with Ring. I mean, when we came out with it, we were making them for more than we were selling them for. um i just you know it's some in some ways we priced it to what we knew the market would just like the max the market would sustain but still buy it knowing also that we had to get to volume like that the price we were paying for each one when we started was way more than if we got to volume and you're not going to get to volume if you just overcharge or charge you know kind of cost plus right and so we had to kind of take that leap of faith that we would be able to raise enough money, sell enough to get the cost lower to then get the margin in line to get the volume.

34:23And we played that game. It's a bit of a game of chicken. And it worked. But I also could see where that price was going. So I'd also say to you, how far out can you see? I see. Like if you really, if you 10x sales, does pricing really come down that much? Yeah. With chips and all this stuff, I could actually literally like, they gave me the thing. Like if you buy 10 ,000, it's this, if you buy a hundred thousand, it's this, I could like on an Excel sheet show exactly what it was going to be. So at least I wasn't doing it like just completely willy nilly. If, so if you can see that maybe then you do want to do that, but I'd make sure that it's actually going to come down and that you're not actually going to, you know, sort of to your mission, you're not going to then compress the worker to get the price down because you try, you know, it's like almost like, you know, in the end it'd be like this weird, ironic ending.

35:12Yeah. Yeah. I would take a page out of LVMH. I was just, I was, I just had the opportunity to go to Paris to see a bit of the Olympics and it was amazing. And one of the things you're reminded of when you're in Paris is LVMH controls, owns Paris and really Europe in many ways. And what's amazing about LVMH is their margins are, I think are so high because it's brand, it's aspiration they're selling, right? But it's also quality. I mean, Gucci or Hermes, these are all high-end products. You know they're well-made, but you're also paying for the brand. You will get to the brand side, but I think you want to really present this as a really premium product.

35:56Start there. It's this thing that is made all in the same place. It's a really high-end luxury product. And I think it's worth trying that. Yeah. Yeah. The brand is called Lugis Chocolate. Ian, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you both so much. I feel so inspired. Have a good one. All right. Good luck. Cool. I, yeah, I could chop some of that up and put them on my cookies. I was actually thinking, I'm like, do I get paid for the advice line? Could I get some chocolate maybe, you know? You know what? Next time you come up here, I'm going to get some of Luji's chocolate and I'll make you cookies.

36:34I just made ice cream sandwiches. I made ice cream and cookies. Put them together, wrapped them for a little party I'm throwing. Yeah, I love ice cream sandwiches. I know, man. They're good. All right, we're going to take another quick break. But when we come back, inspirational posters created for teachers by a teacher. I'm Guy Raz and hopefully we've got the answers here on the advice line. And stick around. You're listening to How I Built This Lab.

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39:27hey welcome back to the advice line on how i built this lab i'm guy roz and today i'm taking calls with jamie simonoff he's the founder of ring which is perhaps most famous for its video doorbell jamie what do you say let's bring in our last caller hello guy hello jamie hi hello hello tell Tell us, please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. I'm Francesca Thompson from Atlanta, Georgia, the founder of Thrive 12. It is an educational resource company designed to support teachers with cool tools and products to use in their classroom.

40:02And we're laser focused on diversity because we understand that every student matters. Awesome. And what's your question for us today? So I am at the point where I'm transitioning from my teacher pay teacher site to actual storefront on Amazon. And I want to know at this stage, should I be focused on the different certifications that you can get, like women's own small business certifications, minority women's business certification? Because with Amazon, they actually do have some support for minority businesses. but I'm not sure if I need to do that right now. All right, we'll get your question in a moment.

40:44Let me ask you first a bit about the business. So if I understand it correctly, you make posters like for classrooms that are like inspirational posters sort of, right? Correct. They're very inclusive. They look like students that I teach, my black and brown students. You're a teacher. Yes, I am. You're a teacher in Atlanta? Yeah, well, I'm in Gwinnett County Schools. It's the largest school district in Georgia. Oh, cool. What do you teach? So I was teaching entrepreneurship. Oh, awesome. Nice. But now I'm more of a career coach and I help the teachers with developing their classes. Got it. Okay.

41:25And these posters right now are digital only. You buy it and then you down. I'm clicking on one. It says, I chat, I tweet, I post, I study. It's two bucks. You've got another one. It's a woman. on the poster says lead serve excel yeah and um and it's two bucks and so you download it and then you are responsible for printing it and putting it yes okay and so i want to have physical posters now that i can um ship directly to um teachers in school districts cool all right we'll get your question moment jamie uh i'm sure you've got some questions for francesca i guess is there like is there a market?

42:05I mean, I'm not a teacher. So like, what would be the market for this? Are teachers always looking for these things? Or how are they looking? I just, I just... So we have our classrooms and every year during the summertime, when we come back, like right now, we're always looking for products to decorate our classrooms. And so a lot of school districts give you a little small budget to use to buy products for your classes. And then a lot of teachers actually have to fund that stuff their self. But we're always looking for things to change our classroom space. Definitely things for the holidays as well.

42:37We're always, teachers just love to decorate. And the idea here is really to like, to inspire kids with these posters. And I mean, there are different kinds of people, right? There's different kinds of kids. Like some kids will see these posters and it just won't resonate. But have you had the experience where kids will see a poster like this and something will just click in their head like, yeah, I'm going to like I'm looking at a poster says trust your ability. And it's a it's a disabled man kicking a soccer ball. Like, have you seen kids just like, I don't know, just respond to these things in ways that surprised you?

43:13Yes. One of the posters, if you see, is of African-American student with a drone. And that's probably been one of my most popular ones, because one, the kids look at the poster and they see him and then they're like, what is that? You know, it just is something that inspires them to look into that product and see if they can learn how to use and fly drones as well. So that one always gets the attention of our students. And you design all these posters yourself? Yes, I do. All right. The price point is really low, right? I mean, they're like two, three dollars. Yeah. So you're going to have to do a lot of volume to build a sustainable business.

43:54But I imagine you have a different plan in the future. I'd be curious to hear what your vision is because you're an entrepreneurship teacher. I know you've got a five-year plan. Tell us about it. So it's that low because I'm staying at the price point of most products that are on teacher pay teacher sites because they are downloading it and they're responsible for it. But once I move to my storefront, Amazon storefront, it is going to definitely I can see those posters ranging anywhere from 15 to 19 dollars. And then hopefully eventually I'll roll out our games as well. And do you see this long term only for schools or do you see this as a, you know, for like nonprofits or for businesses?

44:40And, you know, like remember successories like back in the day, that was like the OG. You'd go into like a warehouse and it would be like teamwork and it would be like a giant soaring eagle and it would say, you know, like strength or something. Right. And that was a thing. And some offices still have that. I mean, are you do you see this kind of product as something like that? Well, I mean, you know, I was only thinking schools. But now that you've said that, I think that is definitely a great idea because I'm thinking all the school districts in the United States and just all the teachers that would definitely benefit.

45:14but like you said different companies could definitely benefit from the product as well i mean even just like people buying it for their kids rooms you're right that's good really good idea that's why like as i'm thinking about it it is an interesting like i kind of love it the drone like one like just like i love how that resonates yeah um because i do think there's things that kids don't realize they can do and if you can just it's like sparks like sparks you're just going to spark them in the right direction now because with the internet and everything else It's like you can find your way, but you need that ignition point.

45:47Yeah. And when I think about some of my students, like some of my students with disabilities, just to see something like that on the wall that represents them and they never have seen anything like that, that just makes them feel really good about themselves. And if I'm not mistaken, I think Barbie just launched a Barbie with Down syndrome. I saw that. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's things like that, that we kind of take for granted. We don't realize that these things are really needed and that it really will help a student out. As you start to do this more and increase the price, I also wonder if you can find people that have made it, whether it's an engineer at Amazon or someone and make them the poster.

46:29Oh, yeah. You know, it gives it a little bit more, I don't want to say authenticity, but there's something about it that like a little paragraph on the bottom. A real person. Like this is Dr. Blah, blah, blah, who grew up in this and now is this. I love it. To your question, Francesca, about – so your question is like should I gain access to certifications like the women-owned small business certification or minority business certification? First of all, how much work is it to get a certification? Is it something that takes months? Is it a lot of paperwork? So there is some paperwork involved.

47:05And the biggest thing is that some of these certifications, they're fees. And right now, with me being at this early stage and trying to, you see, you saw my products are two and three and four and five dollars right now. So I'm trying to see if it's something I should fit in right now or can that be something I can look at later and then add on. I just don't know if I want everything to be perfect when we finally launch our store. But is it something I need to do right now? I mean, I have a thought about this. And I'd be curious to hear your take, Jamie, which is we are living at a moment in time where just getting attention for anything is so much harder because it's an information tsunami.

47:47Right. Like like and we we hear this on the show all the time. You know, 10 years ago, if you launched through influencers on Instagram, you could get a lot of traction. 15 years ago, if you bought ad search on Google, like you could really scale a business. Today, it's so much harder to convert customers through social media. We're hearing that so much. Jamie, you guys, you may have experienced it even even a ring, you know, at the time when you were still there. It's just harder to break through. And so my first response when you ask, should I be certified? Is if this is going to give you some advantage, if this is going to position your business in a way that otherwise you might not get that kind of exposure?

48:29My answer is, yeah, absolutely. But of course, the calculation is, is it, you know, is it going to take a lot of time? Is it going to be really expensive? Or is it is it something that is, you know, modestly affordable, like maybe it might cost a few hundred bucks, and it might take you a week, then I would say, yeah, absolutely. Like if Amazon has a program that they're going to say, yeah, we're going to put this out in front of more people or other platforms are going to say, hey, you know, Francesca's business qualifies under this program we're doing. I would say go for it. Jamie, what do you think?

49:04I think it's exactly right. I think just be very tactical about it in terms of like, if it's going to return$1 ,000 and it costs$100, do it. If it's going to return$100 and it costs$1 ,000, it's not worth it, I think, right now in your business. Okay. Okay. Because I think you're authentic, the product's authentic. It's like all of these things are there. So unless there's something that's going to give you the return, I don't think a certification, I don't think the teacher looking at your products is going to say, wait a second, is this certified? Yeah. But at the same time, if Amazon's going to give you more advertising dollars or some access to something, and they do, I've seen those programs.

49:44It's great. Take advantage of it. They're there for a reason. I love it. Use them all you can. Yeah. They help you with Amazon. It's like customer engagement. They help you with the virtual bundling and things like that if you get these certifications. So I just would look at, again, cost to the return of that because it's not unlimited return, but those are pretty big advantages on Amazon. And also, as you know, as you know, being a teacher, trying to sell into school districts is almost impossible, trying to sell anything to school districts. But there might be an opportunity, right? You never know.

50:23So it seems to me – by the way, do you know how much it costs to get certified, one of these certifications? One I was looking at was around$300 to file the paperwork. That seems worth the time and the price. Yeah, that's probably worth it. Yeah, I would definitely look into that. Guy was saying it's harder to break through. And I think it's always hard in the moment to break through. I think when we look back, we see what was breaking through. But I think what definitely happens is it changes how to break through. Yes. So it goes from Google AdWords to influencers to Facebook to Instagram to TikTok to whatever.

51:03And I think being aggressive and trying to find those things, I'd also look at with that with Amazon. There's a program with Shopify where you can tie that into your Amazon. So you could have sort of a bit of a standalone site as well, but have Amazon as the back end. So I would I would also look into how you could do that. Again, you have such a like rich media content product that you're going to want to be able to really display it and show it, change it out. And then I bet you there's so many people that would love to be on a poster that have made it, you know, that would represent all these different areas you're talking about.

51:40And then kind of even them posting it and putting their poster out. Like, I think they'd be so proud of that. And so that might be a way of also just creating this sort of like what a great flywheel to create. I would also start with like I start locally, right? You're in Atlanta. Just think about some cool. I mean, I just talk about representation. I mean, Topo Watana started Calendly. He was on our show a couple of years ago. Yeah. You know, born in Nigeria and is now running a billion dollar company. Like, how about a poster of a guy like that? And it just says, you know, tech entrepreneur.

52:16Yes. You know, I would just start locally and just contact people. Go to LinkedIn and just find people in the Atlanta area. Arthur Blank from Home Depot. Arthur Blank from Home Depot. I think there's some cool opportunities just starting locally. see if you can maybe partner with somebody, some folks who would be willing to be put on an inspirational poster. I would love it. Cool. Francesca Thompson, the brand's called Thrive 12. Good luck. Thank you so much for calling in. Good luck, Francesca. Thank you. I'm going to get a poster. It says that with your picture on it, Jamie, and it just says, see, even you can make it.

52:51If this guy made it, you're going to be fine. You know what's crazy is on like TikTok and Instagram on the reels, people keep cutting up my shark tank and then putting like the story like in like in a reel. It's over like 100 million views, like way over. Oh, it's crazy. And it's just this like, you know, got denied, then did this, then did this, and then like sold for a billion dollars. Now, it usually says that I'm a billionaire, which is when you sell your company for a billion dollars, you actually don't know all of it. But I appreciate that. That's fine. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I appreciate it.

53:23You know, it's nice. But then everyone's like, hey, Jamie, can I get like 10 bucks? Yeah, that's the downside of it. Jamie, before I let you go, I have to be curious. Like now that you have, of course, started, scaled and exited the business that you built, if you could like go back in time to you in the garage, you know, I remember you telling a story about your wife and she was kind of, you know, she was funding. She was paying the bills. Like she had a job and you were struggling and you were kind of really flailing and nervous. And she was like, let's take a mortgage out of our home and all this stuff.

54:00I remember you told me a story. I mean, you cried. I do every time I think about that one. Yeah. Yeah. What would you have told yourself aside from like, hey, it's going to be okay? What advice would you have given to Jamie Siminoff before anybody knew that his product would be successful? I mean, sadly, it's not advice because you don't know. But if I really knew, yeah, I think just saying like, just keep your head down, it's going to be okay. I think that's the hardest part of entrepreneurship is you don't know it's going to be okay. Because it might not be. And that's also why it's good to work on products that you care about.

54:34Because at least then you spend some time on something that matters. but you know even now i'm back in a new business and you know it's i'm very positive and i'm excited and i'm working hard but like we don't know where these things are going to go and how big they can get and what impact they can have and i think that's the hardest part is that you're kind of driving through a dark tunnel as an entrepreneur and you just sometimes you see a glimmer of light but it's it's rare to see the full light until you're very far down that tunnel and you don't know how long the tunnel is. It could be one year, it could be seven years, it could be 30 years, it could be infinite.

55:11Yeah. And obviously that's hard when you're in the middle of it. And it's hard when you're talking to other entrepreneurs because you can't just say like, it's gonna be okay, keep your head down and work because it's not true. Yeah. Like you could keep your head down and work hard and do the right things and not get there. Now, I think most people, if they keep their head down, hustle, work hard, focus. like i i do think you end up with a higher chance of making it yeah and it may not be the thing that you originally intended to do it but but i think you're right in almost every case on our show and just in conversations i've had it's it's like if you continue if you focus keep your head down work really hard you will be led to where you need to be going yeah i think it's where your show has been i think if if someone it's to me it's the harvard business review of today's generation because it really documented what it's like.

56:06And you go back deeper than just like, oh, you became a successful entrepreneur. Congratulations. Like, what do you do now? It really does tell the story of how you get there. And I think that's, it resonates with people and gives them an understanding of what it's going to look like going through that tunnel. Well, I hope people listen to your episode if they haven't heard already. Jamie Siminoff, founder of Ring, thanks so much for joining us on the advice line. Thanks for having me. And by the way, if you guys haven't heard Jamie's original How I Built This episode, you have to go back and check it out.

56:36You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview. We start here and it's like the week before Christmas. People are contacting me and saying it's not working. And their video was coming through like an old TV tuner. It was all lines through it and you couldn't see the picture. So most of our units are now in the field with customers that not only do they not work, but we can't change that software on them. So they're basically bricks. You cannot fix the ones that people have? Yeah, you can't rewrite the software on this chip. And so this was like the end of the world.

57:12Like this really was. Basically, the business is over. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. you can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com. Each week, it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you.

57:48You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with music composed by Ramtin Erablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Cipher, Carrie Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

58:34if you like how i built this you can listen early and ad free right now by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts prime members can listen ad free on amazon music before you go tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey