Advice Line with Jane Wurwand of Dermalogica (2024)

27:45We have baby-proofed studios. The babies are socializing. They're playing. They're eating snacks. They're playing with the toys or they're strapped to your body. You've got like goldfish crumbs on the ground and apple juice spilled. And you got like the workout class going on all around it. You know it. It's a bit chaotic, but it really works. It's amazing, actually, to see the chaos. But the focus is there for the parents. So we welcome baby wearing. So if you have an infant, you can strap them on so you don't have to think about them. We have parents with toddlers, four and under, who are, you know, cruising around on bikes, weaving in and out of our feet.

28:23But really, it's a win-win because you don't need child care. You can focus on yourself for that hour. And then your baby also gets to socialize. Yeah. I'm on your website now. And I see you literally, like half of these moms, have their baby Bjorns on. Yeah. And the baby, like from the hangover, and you've got them exercising with the baby in the baby Bjorn. Is each of them with their own baby or can you kind of swap your babies? I'm teasing. I'm teasing. I mean, our instructors are known to carry other people's babies around if they need help. But literally, like I look around, I look around my classes and I'm like, why are more people not seeing how badass all these parents are?

29:05They're here. they're getting physically stronger after having a baby or becoming a new parent. And one thing that's really special about, about baby booty is that every single class is half workout, half social circle. So I'm trying to find that sweet spot between you can socialize, you can connect with other parents, um, and your babies are there. Um, but they're not the focus. I think there's in our, in our culture, there's really like kind of a lack of support for new parents, right? And that's symbolic. I've been, yes, especially moms. And I'm a dad and I can say that as having been there 15 years ago.

29:40What's your question that you brought for us today? Yeah. So how can I shift the mindset and behavior of my current and potential customers to also prioritize self-care by coming to Baby Booty and not feel guilt in a culture where we feel like our kids always come first? Got it. Okay. We'll get to that question in a Jane, let's bring you in. Questions, questions, questions for Molly. I love what you're doing. So let me backtrack because I'm quite excited about all of this. When we started Dermalogica, we quickly realized, we started with education and classes. And what we quickly realized was students who were already qualified and working in salons were coming back to the same class more than once, which seemed odd because they'd already learned, you know, about acne or whatever it was.

30:32What we realized was they weren't just coming for the education, they were coming for the community. And I think that's exactly what you've got. I think you've got a workout studio, but what is, I'm willing to bet one of the strongest pulls for people to come there is because, yes, they can bring their baby, so that solves the childcare issue. Secondly, they're with a like-minded group. It's connection, it's community, it's sisterhood, it is knowing that you're not on your own, knowing that you're not the only one that doesn't get it right first time. That is critically important because what everyone is craving right now is community and connection.

31:14So I would just really emphasize to you, don't underestimate this community aspect. Make every excuse you can to have them come in to the studio. whether it's a workshop, whether it's a baby class, whether it's somebody giving a presentation on something, get it on social media. I looked at your Instagram just quickly and you've only got a little over 3 ,000 people. You can get more than that. It's pretty good actually. It's not bad, but your moms can kind of flesh that out themselves, have them post, do little competitions when they post. Anything you can think about, any idea that builds community, build it in your business.

31:59Yeah, for sure. So do you have a membership? There's a membership aspect to this? And what does that look like? Yeah, so you can join as an unlimited member. You get access to on-demand classes, live stream classes, unlimited classes in the studio. And sort of what's ballpark pricing on your membership? It's roughly like$89 a month. It's It's very affordable. Okay, great. And I can take out a month to month or can I take out six months or a year? How does it work? Yep, you can do month to month or if you do six months upfront, you get a little bit of a discount. Yeah, Molly, a couple of questions for you.

32:33First of all, you mentioned that you'd like to be, you know, one day, you've got two locations now, you'd like to franchise this. How is, give me a sense of how the business is doing now. Are you guys profitable yet? I mean, it's tough. It's, you know, new business, But where are you right now in the business? Yeah. No, we are not profitable. I have no outside funding. So I've bootstrapped this entirely. I've taken some really big risks, some scary risks in terms of opening my second studio in Boston. Obviously, it's a lot more expensive than Maine. And I've had to make some really tough decisions.

33:11I haven't paid myself ever. I had to just let go of a manager who a beloved manager just because I couldn't pay her. So I, you know, I have a big vision and I am not going to give up. But, yeah, it's definitely hard. And just scraping by each month, you know, I'm just like treading water, like keeping my head up, keeping a positive attitude. Yeah. I love that. And thank you for saying that. First of all, here's the thing. I mean, what Jane tapped into, I mean, social media, we tend to overemphasize the importance. I think we overemphasize the importance of it. And I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I do recognize that there are big parts of it that are critical.

33:52And in this case, what you're trying to do is to remind new parents. And I think probably most of your clients are women, but I do see some men in the classes as well. So new parents that they got to give themselves. like they have to take care of themselves too because it's part of part of being a good parent and and taking care of your child especially when they're little is taking care of yourself and what's your value proposition here is we're gonna we're gonna make it easy for you just come just show up and i think that if there's a way to kind of send that message through videos i mean you probably are already doing some of that but i would really lean into that that idea of like bring you and your baby and just come and we will take care of everything else.

34:39Yeah, we're here. Your community is here and we're waiting for you. Yeah. I have a quick question. Why did you open the second? What prompted you to open the second location in Boston when you said you've never drawn a salary? I totally understand all of that. That's very normal. But why did you then expand to a second location? So when I started the business in 2021 here in Portland, Maine, I also started doing pop-up classes in Boston, in that area, because that's actually where I'm from. And I was just so excited. I just felt there was a need as I was a brand new mom myself. And I just thought there's so many parents who could utilize this.

35:19And it was successful in the pop-ups that I then said, well, we should just have our own studio space because the idea is to really have that home base for new parents. to have a place to go and a sense of purpose. So for all the right reasons, but did you sign a lease on the premises? I did, yeah. How long is your lease? It's five years. Okay. So that's a stretch because you were, how many, at that time when you opened in Boston, how many, and was it just you teaching or did you have other people teaching with you? So in total, my total team between the two studios, I have 17 instructors. Okay.

35:59And when I opened, I had, yeah, I had a team, I think, of six and a manager. So I do go down. I do go down there as often as I can. And, you know, I've learned actually I have to run that studio a little bit differently than I do in Maine just because the clientele is different. And it's so nuanced because a market like Boston is a big city. We have a lot of more working moms, you know, career moms. They're going back to work. So I'm trying to navigate all of those nuances within that demographic and figure out the right messaging. And do you have a manager in Boston? I do, yep. You do? Okay. So they have to be your proxy.

36:41You've signed a five-year lease, so you're in. However, I would say that that's a big chunk to bite off and try and carry the cost of that, the overhead of that, and just the attention and energy of having to do that. Portland is a great location. Boston is a great location. I would think one would be enough to manage until you feel really strongly you've got your fact, you've got it worked out and then expand to the second. But that's, you know, that's looking in the rear view mirror because you're already in there. But that's the balancing act. And you're picking up a lot of overhead there, I would imagine.

37:15I'm just laughing because a lot of people told me I was crazy. I opened the second location when I had a six month old baby and a toddler. Yeah. And, you know, crazy. We've had much crazier stories on the show. I think one of the – look, I think you have an opportunity here. And clearly you're aware of it. I mean you've got an opportunity here to really build and deepen the community. And I think one of the – in addition to this idea of making it easy, one of the things I think you can do – it's hard. You're a mom. You're a parent. You've got to raise kids too. But if baby booty, at least in the Boston location, can be even more of a 360 location, could you have a cooler that sells premium baby food?

38:03Could you have maybe apparel? Maybe you are selling apparel already. Are you selling baby products? Are you inviting pediatricians? I mean, there's tons. I mean, here, Boston is one of the medical centers of the United States. And so I would imagine there are tons and tons of neonatal specialists and maternity care specialists who would be delighted to come and talk, do a talk for free. obviously moms are busy. They don't have tons and tons of time, but all of those things generate buzz and interest. And so to me, you know, it's hard. It's not going to be easy, Molly. You've heard the show. You know how much of a sacrifice it is.

38:44But given that you've got the space and you've got the, you know, you've got the critical mass there, I think you can really think of it as much more than only a fitness space. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I love that. And think of it as your community clubhouse. Yeah. Yeah. That's cute. Yeah. I love all that. I love when you said have it be more of a 360. And we're definitely trying. We've brought in CPR workshops. You name it, different mom's night out and things like that. But in Boston, I am facing, you know, the clientele just feeling like that competition of they have so many other choices of things to do with their kids.

39:26They're so busy. They're working. The kid's in daycare. They're going to swim class and gymnastics. And so, you know, how do I shift them to get into my, you know, my pump station, my mom's club, you know? It's that mentality that has been really challenging. And that may teach you something also interesting. you may find that your business model works better in a smaller community and not a city. And there's plenty of businesses that know, you know, they know that target and that's what they focus on. And conversely, if you feel like you can compete against the noise of the city and all the other options that there are to go there, then, you know, go for it.

40:06And partnerships, partnerships, partnerships, right? Am I saying it three times? I don't know. People just say things three times in a row. But if you can start to even reach out on all LinkedIn emails, reach out to baby brands, you know, stroller companies, other brands that may want to come and talk to your clients about what they offer. Those brands will often promote you. They'll often say, we're going to be a baby booty, you know. And so little things like that actually can have a cumulative effect over time. It just, I think people are surprised at how often they'll receive a response when you just reach out.

40:49100%. Yeah, for sure. All right. The company's called Baby Booty. Molly Brubaker, congrats. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. We'll be keeping tabs on you. Hey, thank you, Jane. Thank you, Guy. What an honor to talk to you. I love it. Thank you guys so much. And it's not just for moms. So, you know, Jane, Guy, if you guys want to come and work out with us and dance, we'd love that. I'll put my 15-year-old in the Baby Bjorn. He's a little heavy. Oh, I love it. You can just strap him on your back. My 25-year-old can carry me in. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller.

41:23Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

41:41Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Jane Whirlwind. Let's bring in our next and final caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Jane Whirlwind. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi, Jane. Hi, Guy. I'm Sarah Wyman, and I'm calling in from Lakeville, Connecticut. I'm the founder of Paradis Sport. It's spelled like paradise with no E at the end. We make performance underwear for athletes designed by women for women with our guaranteed stay-in-place promise.

42:16All of our products are certified BPA and PFAS free, made as sustainably as possible and built to last. Awesome. Well, thank you for calling in. Paradis Sport. I love it. And so underwear, how did you start this brand? Tell me about it. This is really something that I found I needed. I had worn the same brand of active underwear for about 10 years. I played sports in college. I played Division I sports, and I'm now still a very active person. Wow. What did you play, by the way? I played field hockey, ice hockey, and lacrosse. Wow. So you're no joke, Division I athlete. Well, I'm now in my late 40s.

43:00I am still active skiing and running and hiking with my family. And the brand of active underwear I'd worn for years changed their cut and fabric and didn't work for me anymore. I ordered all these other brands. Some of them were really pretty bad. I'm trained as an architect and landscape architect and I've been running my own design business for 18 years now And I sort of have that design mentality Um, and I thought this is crazy that there aren't better options for active women I just want to something that I can go on a hike in and not have to worry about adjusting my underwear the whole time Yeah, and then I started talking to friends and I started realizing that there are a lot of other women out there who are looking for better products in this category.

43:50Having that design mentality, I started calling around to factories and ended up finding, after a lot of calling in factories in Asia and in the U.S., found an awesome designer in Vermont who had experience designing for other underwear brands and for NASA and for the U.S. military, actually. And she came up with our first prototype, which we then tested with Division One athletes. And we prototyped for a good year and a half. We had eight rounds of prototypes. So we've been very laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well. So you started this because you wanted to solve a problem that you had.

44:35You found a designer. And now you've got, from what I gather, They're two different like sort of designs, right? Well, so we have two different lines for which we have a bikini and a thong. One is seamless. They're knit on circular machines. Okay. And they don't have any side seams. We have a natural fiber line that's made with fabric that comes from sustainably harvested beech tree pulp. And we're adding a couple of new styles. We're right now in development with a boy short and a hipster. And Sarah, tell me a little bit about your, you're entirely self-funded. Yes. This bootstrap. Okay. And mostly direct to consumer.

45:18So what are you guys roughly doing in sales right now? Have you cracked like$50 ,000,$100 ,000 a year? We're close. We're really close. Nice. Nice. Congrats. That's great. All right. How can we help you today? So the question that I had is that we've been laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well and trying to own that space. We do have customers asking us to work on a sports bra or sports shorts. What do you think about adding one or two other verticals like sports bras or sports shorts at this point in our process? or should we just own underwear? Jane, who launched with 20 plus different SKUs.

46:08Jane, what do you think? First of all, I love this. I think it's great. I think you have a real shot of building a brand with this. I'm on your website. I love these three women running through the field with buffalo bison in the background in their underwear. It's just fantastic. It's very high quality. We need underwear that works like this. And I think I would not expand. You've got to own this underwear niche. You've got to be, when I think underwear, I got to think parody. I think that there's all kinds of opportunities to expand within the underwear. I don't know. I do. I love Pilates. Pilates underwear.

46:47We need something when we're doing standing leg series. Trust me. You've got a pregnant woman in one of your shots, but pregnancy underwear. There's specific sports, I imagine, like, I don't know, hurdles, pickleball, which is huge. Men's, I think, could be the next big step. I wouldn't charge into swimwear and shorts and all the rest of it until you've got a great product going here and you've got great attention from press. I wouldn't spread yourself too thin. I'm going to jump in and make a counter argument to you, Jane. Okay, you go, Guy. I actually think, first of all, I think that being a women's brand is the way to go, at least for now.

47:26The thing about sports bras, to me, I would say you should go for it because you've already solved the underwear problem. And I would imagine, and again, I'm a guy here, so I don't know this intimately as the two of you, but I would imagine that that's the other problem that a lot of women athletes have, right? Which is dealing with a bra or a top that isn't holding things together. And if you know that you've solved the problem with underwear, I'm pretty sure you will know how to solve the problem with tops and sports bras as well. And I would think those two together would be a really powerful, you know, sorry, go ahead.

48:09It's two totally different parts of your body. I mean, a bra is very specific. I mean, whether it's your size, it's your cup size, it's your, most people haven't got a clue what size bra they should be wearing. and I love that whole idea but I think it's too soon you're going to distract yourself with the underwire versus the front forcing folding bras the expandable straps the cross-oader straps the sports bras don't have wire in there at all do they? but maybe well that's probably one of the reasons why people if you're larger breasted you don't normally fly in one that really works for you if you put on one without an underwire it is more comfortable But then you look as if you've got a dashing strapped around your chest.

48:53Everything sort of folds into the middle. So I think it's not that I don't think you should ever do underwear like bras and slips and petticoats and whatever the heck's going on at that time. But I think there's such a market in lower half underwear before you concentrate on top half. I mean, she does have an opening here, Jane, because it's called Paradis Sport, not Paradis Underwear. So that's true. I mean, there's a bigger vision here, Sarah. Right. OK. All right. Maybe. But I do think that bras open up. They require so many sizes and that with minimum orders per size. Yeah. That's a huge hesitancy that I have there.

49:42But I also I love the idea of doing one thing really well. But if you want to scale something, right, and this, this, you've got a lot going for you. You've got a great logo. You've got a good name. I mean, underwear by women for women. You've got underwear for women athletes. I mean, you've got a lot going. And I wonder whether you can build a whole business and scale a whole business on just one thing, right, on just underwear, especially as, as, you know, the other, the big 800 pound gorillas in this space, the aloes and the Lululemons and others who are, they may start to, they can start to make underwear.

50:17I don't know if they do. So I wonder whether there is an argument to be made that despite the complexity, it is worth the risk. I think there are companies that are known for their underwear, their lingerie, you know, and they may do panties and bras. But in any event, I love the idea of going narrow and deep. I think there's enough crazy people like me that really think about underwear in a different way that would be your customers. We might be divided here, Guy. I say go narrow and deep. Or divided. But I love that. And by the way, this is the longest conversation I've had about women's underwear in my whole life.

51:03By the way, what is the name? Paradis. Where does that come from? So it's paying homage to Marie Paradis, who is the first woman to climb Mont Blanc in the hot tallest peak in the Alps. Oh, I love it. Okay, you just, you had me at Marie. What? It's an amazing story too. She went up in 1808 with a party of men and she was wearing a wool skirt and leather shoes, leather town shoes. And she persisted and. Oh, you've got it on your website. Yes. Wait, I've just found her. And imagine how much more comfortable that climb would have been with your underwear. That's what we were thinking. We hope she would support our efforts to outfit women for comfort and performance.

51:51Yes. This is a great piece on the website. Thank you. This Marie story. Plus, I think that who are the Maries of today? I have a niece who's an ultra athlete in the UK. She's a GB athlete. and she is an she competes in Ironman and she just rode across the Atlantic with two other women. Yeah. And they are out there. The Marie's of the world. Marie Paradis is out there and waiting for your underwear. And look, you're you're coming to the table with so much like standing as a former D1 athlete, Sarah. So, I mean, yes, you know, I can imagine that. Are you or do you have any ends at some of the universities?

52:32And I mean, are you able to get these to college students, women who are playing on the Stanford soccer team or the field hockey team at wherever? Yes, I played at Dartmouth College and the field hockey and lacrosse players have been my interns and fit testers. And they're incredible. Yeah. I love it. I'd love to reach other college athletes as well. I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about this brand the next couple of years. Sarah, I say go into bras and sports bras. Jane says don't. One of us, we might both be right. I say listen to Sarah Blakely's interview with Guy. That was one of your early ones, Spanx.

53:12Yep, she did one thing right. You're right. Focus on that and then you can expand. That's my model for you, Spanx. I think that's good advice. Sarah Wyman, Parody Sports, congrats. Thanks for calling in. Good luck. Thank you so much for having me on the show. And Jane, thank you so much for everything you've done for women who own businesses. It's really incredible. Thank you to be continued. But thanks so much and good luck. You've got something here. Thank you so much. Thank you. Jane, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question about if you could go back in time and you could say, Jane, do this, do that, you know, or know this.

53:51What's something that you wish you knew that might have been just to help a little bit more helpful? Oh, there's probably so much. But I think the one thing that does come to mind is that I wish I'd known sooner that there are no real experts out there. I mean, there are people that have more experience and they may have had more success and they may have made more money. but it doesn't mean that they're experts about your business. You know your business the best. You know what's driving it for you emotionally. You know your customers when you're an entrepreneur. And for a long time, I felt like I didn't know very much.

54:38I was kind of winging it. I was having some lucky hits and there must be experts out there that could be doing a lot better job.

54:50And You can hire in people to assist you, but there's no one that's going to run your brand or love your brand the way you do. For sure. Jane Warwind, thank you so, so much for coming on the show. Thank you, Guy. Thanks so much for having me back. I loved it. That's Dermalogical co-founder Jane Warwind. And by the way, if you haven't heard Jane's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. We went to a contract manufacturer in Los Angeles, literally sort of fell on our swords and told him our dream, gave him the pitch and said, we need you to do like a test run for us.

55:32He said, look, I have absolutely no reason to do this because 99 % of everyone that sits opposite me telling me this story does not succeed. But for some crazy reason, I think you've got something interesting and I want to be in for the ride. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com. Each week, it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with.

56:17And hopefully we can help you with them and make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Catherine Seifer with music composed by Ramtina Arablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production staff also includes Neva Grant, Andrea Bruce, Alex Chung, Casey Herman, J.C. Howard, Carrie Thompson, Rommel Wood, Chris Messini, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.

57:00If you like How I Built This, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.