Advice Line with Maureen Kelly of Tarte Cosmetics

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1:14I love traveling with my family. We did an awesome trip this summer. And one of the things that made the trip so special were the Airbnb experiences we did. Immersive tours, cooking classes, a chance to get coffee with a world-class barista. I had so much fun on those experiences that I decided to host my own Airbnb original experience in San Francisco, designed to help you think about how to unlock your next big move in your career or even in your life. To learn more about my Airbnb original experience, head to Airbnb.com slash Guy. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.

1:57I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.

2:38It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyros.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. My guest today is the fabulous Maureen Kelly. She's the founder and CEO of Tarte Cosmetics. Maureen, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to be here. So excited to have you back with us. We had you on the show, I think, in January of 2023. Yes. My first and only podcast I've ever done. It was so fun. We told the story about Tarte. Your story is just full of amazing ups and downs. And by the way, if anyone listening, if you haven't heard that story, please scroll back and check out the story of Tarte Cosmetics.

3:23And we'll also put a link to it in the show notes. Maureen, you are still the CEO to this day. I am, yes. I was not ready to hang up my high heels and hang on the beach. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. I mean, you're too young. You've got your whole life ahead of you. We're going to talk a lot about it. I think a lot of the callers today probably are going to want to talk about how to break out, how to get attention, how to get more visibility with their brands. One of the things that you did right from the get-go was you – I think it was your first, very first product was a – like a gel – like a gel blush, right?

3:57Cheek stain. Yes, the cheek stain. And that – a cheek stain. It was called a cheek stain. It was – and it was like so weird and different. And that really got you a lot of early attention, right? It did. It really did. You know, I felt like it was a product that was missing in the market because it was missing in my makeup routine. Put a few dots on your cheeks and you blended it and it stayed all day. And beauty editors loved it. And then customers loved it. I mean, who would name something a cheek stain? That sounds like a little bit scary, right? But yeah, I wasn't like a marketing person. Had I been, I probably would not have named it a cheek stain.

4:34But I think actually your instinct was right, right? It works for me. Yeah. In the end. Yeah. And you got into some boutiques in New York on the strength of just being this because you were a kid. I mean, you were so young. Yes, I was. Trying to come across as a cosmetics entrepreneur, which you were. I was not. You're a guy. You're so kind. I was not a cosmetics entrepreneur. And I think that's the thing, right? The whole like fake it till you feel it at the end of the day. Like it's okay to try things. It's also okay to fail. I've had TART now 25 years, and I can't even tell you how many times I have failed and just gotten back up off of my knees and just took the first step and the second step and the third step.

5:18Maureen, let's take a call. Let's do it. Yes, let's do it. Let's give some advice. Let's see what we can do. Let's bring on our first caller. Hello. Hi, guys. Hi. Hello. Please introduce yourself. Tell us where you're calling from and just briefly about your business. Sure. My name is Christina O 'Brien, and I live in Los Angeles. I am the co-founder of Badari. Badari is a sexy and lightweight athletic underwear that you can be active in all day. Okay, yeah. Amazing. Okay, and Christina, what question have you brought us? So we are self-funded. It's Danielle, my business partner, and myself. And we have an Amazon page.

5:59We launched on Shopify in 2022. Our main product is actually a subscription box. So every six months, surprise, you get three new panties. So that's going great. So we've worked really hard. How do we scale from here? What do we do next? Got it. Okay. All right. We're going to get to your question in a moment, but I have some questions for you first. So I'm looking at your webpage, Badari, and obviously this is not my area of expertise. Yes. But it's interesting. So we're talking about underwear. And tell me, are these performance underwear? What are they designed? They're super cute. Your wife would love them.

6:40They're adorable. Thank you. Yes, they are essentially a performance panty. You nailed it. We just found a hole in the market between a panty that was really pretty and lacy and kind of sexy to seeing on the market that there were some underwear that actually were functional, but they just weren't very cute. They were functional, but not pretty. So we married the two together. So you could wear this like on a run at a yoga class and then just like put on a skirt and go out on a date or something, whatever. Like that's the idea? All day long. You got it for all occasions. All right. Tell me how this idea came about.

7:17What were you doing? Because I think you founded this relatively recently, right, in the last couple of years? Yeah, yeah. So it's sort of embarrassing, but it's actually something that we should talk about. Yeah, it's an uncomfortable product. So here we go. We're here to give advice. Yes, my face is bright red. But anyways, this is the deal. True, true story. My best friend, Danielle, and I, who's the co-founder, went away on like this tiny vacation and we did a workout and post-workout. I was like, hold on, can't go eat. I got to run and take a shower. And she was like, that's crazy. Like, what are you doing?

7:49I said, I'm sorry. Like, post-workout, there's some discomfort. Maybe not so much freshness. Could lead to, you know, TMI, but other things. Right. And she thought I was crazy. And I was like, I'll be right back. So post this trip, she comes up with this idea. Like, why wouldn't we marry the panty that we like, which is like a hanky-panky, all cotton, but something that's more, again, lightweight, sweat-wicking, breathable. And I was like, that's genius. So we then took it upon ourselves to order, I don't know, every panty on the market. My husband was like, what is all this stuff coming in? Your husband was like, yeah.

8:29Yeah, he was literally like, I think I like this. I think I like this business you're in. Yeah. He's like, that's why I married you. So literally, we tried everything. We literally took out the scissors and a glue gun. We're not fashion textile experts. We met doing medical device sales literally in the operating room and hit it off like 20 years ago. Oh my gosh. You guys met in the operating room. Operating room. Mask on, scrubs. So we were like consultants to the surgeons during their surgeries and we hit it off. By the way, what kind of devices were you guys selling? Oh my gosh. Well, what's crazy is at the time I was selling a mesh device for hernia repair.

9:08And you have to know that the technology of Badari today is related to that technology I used to sell. Wow. Our product today, the liner has actually small interstices, small holes to allow breathability. So it's crazy how it crossed over. This is like a little like Sarah Blakely-esque, right, guys? Yeah. I was thinking about that. Because when she designed Spanx, it was designed to eliminate that, like, if, you know, when women wore skirts, you could see their underwear line, right? And she wanted to eliminate that line in underwear. Oh, yeah. It's seamless. It's great. That is such a great point.

9:48No, we initially launched this in an active panty, a sexy panty that you can be active in all day. And then we sort of started to niche ourself into this athletic area. Just again, because the active wear market is so massive and it's growing like crazy. So we live in a volleyball area, right? So the volleyball players around here love it. Runners love it. The lace on the sides actually really keeps the panty in place so it doesn't roll over. And women love that. So women that do yoga or work out or I have a tennis player wearing my product too. So you should come up with a name. Like you should name that lace because like when I looked at it, I thought like it was just really pretty and that you did it for like that factor.

10:32Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it's not clear. Like all these things you're talking about are not clear on the site. Like you don't know. Yeah, you can sort of see that their performance and they're supposed to look nice. But all the design thinking around it. You know, I know you've got a graphic of the wick proof material. material, but even this thing that you talk about with a lace or the fact that it's designed to be seamless. And, you know, I feel like all of that energy that you're bringing to this conversation somehow needs to be reflected on your landing page, even though that may not be the place where most people buy the products from.

11:07They might go TikTok. But that has to be the place where your brand Bible, like that's the brand Bible right there, right? Yes, a thousand percent. Because that's the first place I went when I was like, oh, let me check out her product. I just, like, read about it. You know, everybody sweats. Yeah. Right? And it's not just to me, like, athletes. Personally, I would say, like, if I were you, I would broaden my reach a little bit. I think that, like, something like don't sweat it. Like, we've got your back because obviously it's, like, underwear. Oh, that's cute. You know, your back. I like that.

11:41So, like, do some kind of, like, with editors do some kind of a sweat challenge. So you send them to do like a hot yoga class or like a spin class or something like that. And it's like your brand sweat guarantee. I feel like you could do like the marathon test, the bike ride blitz, like, you know, the gym workout gauntlet. I love that. I think that's incredible feedback. I think another thing we're thinking with our limited funding is like where to go next, right? Do we find an athletic influencer? Do we try to have like Maureen's skill set, luck, Bendel's opportunity and like get on QVC? Like do we do Google and Facebook ads?

12:21Like kind of where do we go next to scale this company? Yeah, this is a really, really important question because you've got this really cool product. And your price point is not – your price point is really great, right? I mean I don't know what – I'll be honest. I don't know what panties cost. But this is a pretty good price, right? It's reasonable. It's reasonable. 18 bucks, right? So I'm thinking like the idea and you're trying to figure out where to take your marketing dollars. And presumably you don't have tens of thousands to spend, right? Maybe you have a 10, 20, 30 ,000 to spend or not even that much.

12:59Yes. I would definitely go to QVC for sure. I think this could be great. especially with, you know, I was saying the don't sweat it. I think that applies to so many different times in life. Like Rush is coming up right now. And I think like don't sweat it. Like that's obviously college age. So you got this. Someone that's going through an interview process, like send it to like your girlfriend, your best friends, whatever. Like it's like a good luck thing. You know, for like cheer tryouts, the same thing. Bridal is coming up. I know you were saying you're excited because you can see a market for active wear, but when you niche yourself so far down, it can make it very difficult, too.

13:47Well, I totally agree. I think this product is truly for the everyday woman. The working woman, the photographer who's up and down all day long, the woman that just sweats. Every woman who sweats. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Like right now, you could have worn it and then put it on your Instagram and TikTok and been like, oh my gosh, meeting Gaira's. But I'm not sweating it. And I'm still going to take that idea. I'm just sweating listening to this. And I'm going to take that idea. Thank you. No, no. To your point, I think I've learned that my market is a lot bigger than I initially thought. I had a mom that it was her daughter's sweet 16th birthday, and she ordered 12 of them for her in the really cute pink ones.

14:29And with a cute bow, I packaged them. And so I think the market is bigger. Got it. I'm just so happy that I have boys right now, that I'm a father of two boys. I love when my son's walking by. He's like, Mom, tell me about your marketing pitch. I'm like, I don't know if I want to tell you about my sexy, sweet, seamless, sweat-wicking panty. No, it's a super innovative product. I think it's your question about where to put your dollars. I mean, I think your instincts are right. Finding athletic influencers, finding maybe putting a budget together for a PR firm. But it's the kind of thing that really does, you know, it's an unusual enough product that, you know, you can imagine bloggers' websites being interested in this story because it is, it's like you can be sexy and you can like go on a run.

15:26You know, there aren't many, many things out there like that. So definitely get that quote. Definitely get that quote and throw it on the website. But again, I wouldn't niche so far down, right? I mean, lean is the women in sports. I'm obsessed. Like, I definitely feel like, especially, like, right now, women in sports having such a big moment. So you should be seeding this to everyone you can think of in addition to, like, you know, marathon, track teams, gymnastics teams. I don't know. Do SoulCycle partnership. Like, you know. And then you can even do fun partnership with, like, deodorant company, like Native or something like that.

16:02I don't know. I think this is such a cool product. I love it. And you have so much potential. And you need to give product away. I'm sure you're doing some of that. Yeah. But it's going to cost you. It's going to cost you money. Yeah. But that's a big market. I mean, you're in L.A. Yeah. And the thing about being in L.A. is you are in one of the two biggest markets in the United States and one of the biggest in the world, right? What starts in L.A. goes national and international. And so you have a competitive advantage because you are already there. And do the embroidery because customization is key.

16:34Everyone loves personalization. That's a fun idea. So like pick these amazing athletes that are just killing it and doing so well because they're getting so much stuff. So they tend, you know, they tend to set it aside. But if it's personalized and customized, you're going to get a second look. I promise you. You actually like put like if you're sending it like Caitlin Clark or something, you like embroider her name on it. Maureen, is that what you mean? A thousand percent. Yes. Love it. Like what are people's nicknames? Like Google them. You know what I mean? And just think things like that. And then right on the card, just be like, sweat challenge.

17:11And put the technology. You know what I mean? Just be like, don't sweat it. We've got your back. Look at that. Christina, you've got your own in-house CMO right here. Come on my board. I don't have one yet. Do you want to join my board? The company is Badari Christina O 'Brien. Good luck. Congrats. Thanks for calling in. And yeah, we'll be following you. Thanks for having me. Bye, Christina. So, yeah, I mean, this is the thing. Like, clearly, they don't have a massive marketing budget. They don't have millions of dollars to spend or thousands of – maybe a few thousand. But this is the kind of product that almost screams out like a strategic partnership.

17:51And as you say, getting it to women athletes, like that could be really interesting. Yes. Like I think of On Shoes and Roger Federer and like, you know, there are you can imagine like a strategic partnership with the right athlete or influencer or somebody who's willing to, you know, of course, model these on social media, but who also has like an equity stake in a company. Yeah. That could be an interesting thing for them to explore. Yes, absolutely. Okay, Maureen, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we're going to talk with a hair care expert about how to position her new line of chemical-free hair care products.

18:27Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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21:59Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm with Maureen Kelly of Tarte Cosmetics. Okay, let's bring in another caller. Hello. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Yeah, this is Ashley Stark, founder of Perry Hair Care, calling from Indianapolis, Indiana. Perry provides premium hair care solutions for consumers seeking to avoid harsh chemicals for enhancing scalp health, hair vitality, and safeguarding color integrity. Got it. Okay. And what's your question? Yeah, my question for you guys is, in today's very saturated hair care market, with no budget for advertising, how would you prioritize your efforts to sell this product, whether targeting businesses or individual consumers?

22:52Got it. Okay. Ashley, awesome. We're going to get to your question in a second, but a couple of questions for me. First of all, I'm looking at your site and this is one of the coolest things. Maureen, when you started Tart in 2000, it wasn't easy. You couldn't just go to Squarespace or Shopify or wherever, GoDaddy and just build a website from from scratch. Like you had to hire somebody in HTML and I'm looking at their website and this doesn't look like a company that has no budget. This looks like a serious established brand, but relatively new, right? Tell us how you started the company. Yeah, it's definitely relatively new.

23:26We've been at it for about a year and a half, but we just got our product about just six months ago. So we're very new to having the product in our hands. Wow. And tell us what you what what's your what's your other business? Because you also are part of another hair company. I'm newly a co owner at a hair restoration clinic in Indianapolis. We've been in business for almost 25 years helping with hair loss across the board for men and women. Wow. And and how did you decide to create this business? Tell me the sort of the backstory. Yeah, we actually saw a gap in this very saturated market. We carry a lot of different product lines at the hair restoration clinic.

24:07Some are more medical grade products that focus on scalp health specifically. And some of the products are more salon grade focused on the hair health. So I found myself bouncing around between 20 different products throughout the week. And we just realized there wasn't one solution that really married both and was free from harsh chemicals. Okay. You are direct-to-consumer right now, I'm assuming, only, right? Yes. How – so first of all, what's the differentiating factor here? You mentioned finding a gap in the market. This is a saturated market. So what is that specific gap? Yeah, it was finding a product that really buried all of those elements that really can address your scalp concerns and maintaining the exact oil levels that you need in your scalp with caring for the actual health of your hair and avoiding all of those harsh chemicals like sulfates and silicones that can build up over time.

25:00So you're free of sulfates and silicones? Yes. And I don't see that clearly on the site at all. It doesn't, maybe it is here? Yeah, I totally agree, Guy. I feel like in general, I started to go really deep into your background. I went to your LinkedIn, all the things. It didn't show what Guy was starting to ask, what the real point of difference is with your brand. And with hair, it's so important to help people understand like what the point of difference is with the product, what's in it, what's not in it. And I feel like you're not really seeing that as much on the website. And then the other big thing is having the before and after progressionals, which are not that hard to do.

25:47Like you have, I feel like I saw like one like B &A. And it's very similar with like makeup and skincare, right? So you're seeing like let's say it's like a wrinkle, a product for like fine lines and wrinkles like an eye cream or something like that. Seeing like what it's doing at like the two-week mark, the one-month mark, the three-month mark. With hair, I mean that's what you have to see is the difference in like what it's doing for your hair. And I feel like that's something that you could add. Oh, that's interesting. I like that idea, showing the progression. Let me ask you a couple questions.