Advice Line with Michael Dubin of Dollar Shave Club

25:59welcome back to the advice line on how i built this lab i'm guy roz and my guest today is michael dubin founder of dollar shave club and we are ready to take our next caller hello caller hi my name is brandon davis i'm from vista california in san diego county i'm the owner of PARS Mobile Mini Golf alongside my wife, Claire. With PARS, we bring the mini golf to you for your next party or event. Wow. Okay. Brandon, thanks for calling in. PARS Mobile Mini Golf. So like I have a party and I want something to do. You will bring a mini golf course to my party. You will set it up. And how does that work?

26:40Yeah, we bring the full mini golf course. We try to make it look as permanent as possible in the space that you have. All we need is a flat surface. We provide all the putters and balls. We have designed it to be as challenging and immersive as possible. It has a high end look so it can go to, you know, black tie weddings and corporate events, but it's also versatile enough where it can go to a backyard barbecue as well. Wow. Wow. Who knew? What kinds of party? Are they kids' parties? Who hires you guys? Our biggest clientele is weddings and corporate events. Weddings? Yeah, yeah. So during the cocktail hour and reception, they'll have it to entertain guests and people can converse and meet each other over a game of mini golf.

27:29That is so cool. How did you even come up with this idea? Who would have thought of this? Yeah, I loved mini golf as a kid. And one day my wife and I were talking and I was just like, I would love to own a permanent mini golf course, like a fully immersive indoor one. And we didn't have the money at the time. So we were just brainstorming and thought, well, what if we made it mobile? We both have woodworking experience. My wife is a designer. Myself, I designed window displays for a national bookstore. And so we just got started working on it out of our carport and started running it with four holes.

28:04And then it just grew from there. That is so cool. And you're based, you said in San Diego. So I'm assuming most, if not all of your business is in that area in San Diego. Yeah. And we started the company in Utah, but we moved it out here because my wife's family's from here. And we just thought this is going to be the market for it. So we packed up our whole family of three kids after two years of running it there, moved it to California, kind of took a risk, and it's paid off really well. We've done better here in California than we ever did in Utah. And this is your full-time job, right? This is what you guys are doing?

28:37My wife is actually now that it's back up on its feet and doing well. She's going back to be an exhibit designer for the San Diego Natural History Museum. So I'll be running it full-time myself now. And do you have any employees? Yeah, we have two delivery leads who can run separate routes, and then we have a pool of gig workers who will go out with them. And give us a sense of what you guys are, in terms of revenue, what you guys are doing right now. I mean, have you broken$100 ,000 a year,$150 ,000? Yeah, so this year we're projected to hit over$200 ,000, which honestly is just mind-boggling to me.

29:12That's something I made out of my carport is at that point. Yeah, that's awesome. All right, before we dive into this, tell us what your question is. Yeah, so a lot of small niche event businesses like ours, they're really driven by like two products, I would say, the actual product and then the client interaction and experience. That's like just as important. I've been going to a lot of events since we started again in California. But now that the volume is up, how do we make sure that our employees are bringing that same level of client interaction and experience that we bring when they don't have the same skin in the game and emotional investment?

29:50All right, Michael Dubin, lots to think about here. Thoughts, questions, concerns, comments? Yeah, so first of all, congrats on the business. It's a super unique idea. Everybody's looking for ways to make their event more fun. But to address your question, you're highlighting a challenge that every entrepreneur faces, which is how do I get everybody else to care as much as I do about the business and about the customer experience? And one of the best ways to do that is to create an equity pool that your employees can participate in. Is there a way for you to make your employees the best ones, the ones that are the most loyal?

30:31Can you give them a share of your company so that they feel the pride of ownership that you feel and they can enjoy in your success beyond what you're paying them from a salary or gratuity basis? I'm not sure how your team works, but that's probably the best way I could think about is letting them participate in that way in your success. But it's a hard thing to do, especially with people who are being paid hourly who may not have the same passion for the category. So another thing that employees really like is, depending on the specific company and what the role is, is investing in their development as a worker.

31:12And where do they want to grow? Nobody comes to your company expecting it to be a lifelong relationship, and you shouldn't expect that either. That's just not how it works. And then eventually they're going to move on and they're going to do something else. How can you play a role in their development and say, here's what we need out of you while you're here. And by the time you leave, you're going to leave with A, B, and C skills, capabilities, and those are going to serve you well in what you want to do moving forward. Yeah. In addition, I mean, giving people equity, amazing, because right away they're invested in that, right?

31:46They will get a piece of it. But before you go down that route, because I think you're still pretty small and you may not want to do that yet. We did an episode a couple years back about specialized bikes, and it's worth listening to that episode because Mike Sinyard, who founded that company, was struggling in like 2000, 2001 and almost went bankrupt. And he happened to read an article about Adidas and how Adidas really turned around their business in the United States in part because of a brand Bible. He thought, wow, I've been running Specialized for 20 years and I've never written a brand Bible.

32:22And here you are, you've got a new company, a new business, and you don't have to write a 2 ,000-page brand Bible, but you could write like a customer service manifesto, right? Because you're not in the mini golf business. You're in the hospitality business. Yeah, exactly. You're in the – like a restaurant is not serving food. They create experiences. Like you go to a restaurant and, yeah, the food might be great, but that's enhancing the conversation that you have with somebody else. It's a memorable experience, and having great food just makes it even better. and having great customer service at the restaurant.

32:54There are a lot of points of contact. And with what you do, it's the same thing. It's like someone went to the wedding, they're like, oh, and there was a mini golf course. It was the best wedding ever. It was fun and the drinks were great, the food was great. And so your job is to help create that joyful moment. And I think you start by building a document. It can be two, three, five pages in Microsoft Word or Google Docs. It says, we're in the business of creating joy. And you, you know, you basically have checklists, you know, how to greet people, how to respond, how to smile. The other thing I think is really critical for your business is who you hire.

33:37Because you're not looking for necessarily people with like specialized skills, right? The most important thing you're looking for is somebody with the right attitude. You've got to hire for attitude. Definitely. Over everything. You can teach people how to do this stuff, but you want to look for people who maybe have worked in hospitality, who just love this stuff, who are just joyful. And not everyone's like that. I'm not like that. I get grumpy all the time. But there are lots of people out there. Actually, most of my – all my team on how I built is like that. You want to find people who just love this and love this idea and love bringing joy to people.

34:17and that's where you start to, you know, you create the ability to kind of let go and manage more and let other people run the show. And I'll just, I'll add to that and just say, when you're interviewing candidates, it's really important to ask them why they want this job. What do they want to get out of it? And how can you help them get that thing out of it? and pay attention to the answer that you get. You want to try to find people with that kind of passion that Guy mentioned, with that sense of joyfulness. And you want somebody that believes in the mission and believes in the business that you're creating.

35:02That's how you're going to get people to stay and be the right kind of ambassador once they got the job. So pay attention to the answers that they give you because you don't want to hire people for whom this is just a job. Yeah. You know, another way to incentivize people to really step up, and it's relatively inexpensive is you can, if you're not doing this already, you should be asking every client for feedback. It's annoying because every time I buy something, I'm asked for feedback and it's a little bit overwrought. But I think you could do it in a short way. Just a couple of like quick ticks of a box.

35:37How would you rate the experience? And incentivize the people who are, you know, working for you to really go the extra mile. You can give them gift cards, you know,$100,$200,$300 gift card for doing a great job. And really praising them for the work they do, right? And also, most importantly, showing an example. So when you hire people, obviously, I'm assuming you're already doing this, they come with you. They come with your wife. They see how you operate, how you interact with guests, how you behave, how you go the extra mile to create those moments of joy and emphasize that that's what they need to do.

36:14This is everything I needed, like all the things I needed. So thank you so much. I want to get jumping on all of this. Let's go mini golfing. Let's do it. I want to just give you two thoughts that just popped into my head about mini golf, because I really do love mini golf. Number one, I had a question. Can you buy the kit and bring it to your own event? Or do I have to hire your company to bring to my event? We only rent right now. We've had people ask whether they can buy. We kind of don't want to cannibalize our own sales and our own rental market area. But I guess it really won't with how big the market is.

36:54And so it's just whether my wife and I can build the course out. Well, also just think about a different consumer, right? The product that somebody is going to buy and bring home with them is going to be very different than the thing you bring to the event, the wedding. Definitely. The last idea I had for you is like, could you do something where you build a live miniature, buy a miniature golf course that acts as a marketing tentpole for you? Like this one idea I've always had is building a mini golf course in a beautiful botanical gardens. And it would be attractive to both like people who love plants and gardens and people who love mini golf.

37:33They come there and they fall in love with it. And then you market having an event, we bring the course to you. But having a real place, you know, that people can come to might be an interesting marketing tactic for you. Yeah, we've even thought like with a warehouse that we have a showroom that we really theme out. People can come and play and pay the$10 to play and we just retheme it every six months or so. Yeah. Awesome. Brandon Davis, company's called Pars Mobile Mini Golf. Good luck, man. Thanks for calling in. Thanks so much, Guy. Thanks, Mike. Yeah, it's great having you. The thing about mini golf, it's like it's, you know, I think if you get it going, it's a pretty good business, right?

38:21It's a good business, definitely. But yeah, I think he's got something. I'd love to go to one of his events. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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40:06Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. And today I'm taking your calls with Michael Dubin, the founder of Dollar Shave Club. And Michael, are you ready for the next call? I sure am. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to The Advice Line. You're on with Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line about your business, please. Hey, guy. Hey, Michael. Excited to be on. My name is Bria Fleming. I am located in the beautiful Flint Hills of Kansas, and I'm the founder and operator of Incidental Wildland LLC, and we manufacture custom uniforms for wildland firefighters.

40:42Wow, that's awesome. Thanks for calling in, Bria. So custom uniforms for firefighters who fight wildland fires. That is a very, it sounds like a really niche business, although with climate change, there's tons of forest fires. How did you start this business? What's the story behind it? Well, long story short, I graduated college during the recession when there were no jobs and I have a background in costume construction. But I went into AmeriCorps after college because, you know, no jobs. And I ended up on a fire team doing prescribed fire in Western Iowa for the Nature Conservancy. You were basically doing prescribed burns, right?

41:24Just to clear out brush. Okay. Yep. And you fell in love with it, but this was just your AmeriCorps job and you ended up staying in this, in firefighting? Yeah, I really loved it. So I spent several years doing more prescribed fire crews, teams here and there. Eventually I got into fire suppression as well. But a prevailing issue in the industry is the terrible fit of the uniforms that were issued, especially for women in the field. And having some sewing skills, I thought maybe I could do something about that. Wow. I'm assuming that the clothing is like, the material is, I mean, what is it made?

42:01A Kevlar? I mean, what is it? It has to be very durable, robust. Yes. Yeah. So the material is aramid or para-aramid. The brand name is Nomex. That's kind of what our uniforms are referred to as Nomex. And yeah, there's a Kevlar component to a lot of the pants materials that I work with as well. It's all obviously designed to withstand, you know, they're not flammable, I'm assuming. Right. Yep. So once the material, if it catches fire, it self-extinguishes basically just like a natural fiber wood, cotton or wool. And then there's also a big component on radiant heat protection. So as the fibers heat up, they actually expand and close off all those micro gaps between fibers to protect your skin from radiant heat as well.

42:51All right. So the uniforms that you were using sucked. And again, what was the problem with them? It just the fit is really problematic. And that is something that's dictated by the the oversight committee. I guess you could call them the NFPA or National Fire Protection Administration, I think. And they have a size chart in that standard that dictates. It's a little technical, but basically it's called wearing ease. Like if I make a pair of pants and your waist measurement is 32, if I made your pants at a waist 32, they would be too tight because that's skin tight. So in garment making, we add what's called wearing ease to make it fit and move on your body.

43:34And there's a practical amount of wearing ease and then there's an excessive amount of wearing ease. And basically what the NFPA dictates is an excessive amount of wearing ease that leads to basically a uniform that makes you feel like you're going to work in an oversized duffel bag. If I could. It's just a practical question. I'm assuming most firefighters are hired to, you know, they're hired and they're provided with uniforms. And so how common is it for them to be like, you know, I'm going to go buy my own stuff? Yeah, that's a great question. And I would say from what I've seen from my clients, most of them are either purchasing their uniform from me with a company card or they're being reimbursed.

44:21I do occasionally get folks who feel strongly enough about it that they're buying out of their own pockets. But in my opinion, that shouldn't happen. Your employer should be providing your PPE for you. And you're mostly making – you're not just making apparel for women, right? This is not – Right. Women, men. And I also do a small amount of accessories like utility wallets and tool pouches and that kind of thing. Lots of questions. Before we get to them, tell us your question for us today. My question is about scaling. I've been in business nine years. It's been very slow. I've reinvented wheels.

44:55I did not need to reinvent. I've just kind of been bootstrapping and creating a day job for myself. And I'm at the point where I have more demand than I myself can produce. And so I'm just kind of at a loss as to where to focus next and how to choose what to scale first and what to try. Got it. Okay. Michael Dubin, this is a very interesting, I mean, it's certainly niche, but I mean, look, I mean, there's whole brands that were created out of like scrubs, right? There's a, I can't remember that big one. There's a big one, but. Figs. Figs, right. Right. Yeah. Right. So there's a world where like, you know, what started out as firefighting apparel can become, you know, working people's.

45:40But anyway, thoughts about Incidental Wildland? Yeah. First of all, you know, nice to meet you. Thanks for building this business. This is an area that's close to my heart. During the pandemic, I started a wildfire nonprofit and we do some lobbying. We do some fuel mitigation work and some forest management work as well. But I think the space that you're working in is really cool. And I think it's a cool business. Look, it sounds like you need to raise some money so that you can go out and hire staff or develop a manufacturing partnership with someone. That's essentially the point that you're at.

46:19I mean, you said it. Demand is not your problem. So if this is really just a supply chain production issue, I would say my question back to you is have you found manufacturing partners that can help you develop the product to your specifications or are you still on the hunt? Sure. Yeah. So I've kind of started down that road. I now have a part-time employee and a couple of contract sewists that I work with. And I've also started utilizing a contract cut and sew company in Kansas city near where I live. And that's been great. What I've found, though, is that of all the hats I wear as a business owner, the sewing is the only thing I can pay myself for.

46:59So if I'm handing off all the sewing, there's nothing left for me. And I would like to continue having an income. So that's tricky. But I feel like I'm starting to have the systems in place to build. And maybe it is just a question of volume and better marketing. Or maybe there are some other things I could be thinking about, too. Well, Bria, I'm curious about what you just said because, I mean, your sewing skills are important, but they're more proof of concept, right? I mean the long-term value is in your designs and that's your IP, right? And your credibility because you are a firefighter. And so why can't you hire sewers and focus on the other parts of the business?

47:46I guess that's just a margin issue and possibly a fundraising issue. The material is incredibly expensive and people are used to paying a premium for this type of garment but I'm very passionate about the industry. I don't want to be the most expensive product on the market. I want to be accessible to the people like you mentioned earlier who are still on the hook for buying this stuff out of their own pockets and I just yeah I'm not quite sure how much room I have to raise prices and increase my margins and be able to pay for things like my time designing or my time marketing. All right. So then I guess my next thought would be, well, if that's the case, what about doubling down on accessories?

48:27Because I imagine that might be a little bit more scalable for the time being, even though your passion may be in the uniforms, accessories might have higher margins, I'm assuming like, I don't know, gloves or pouches or whatever belts, like whatever accessories that you might need as a firefighter. Is that true? Would the margins be better? Yes, accessories have a better margin and it would be more scalable. So I guess that would be just kind of an education question on my part. Like I've never done any kind of B2B. I don't know how to approach a retailer about carrying my products. But yeah, it's worth thinking about for sure.

49:06Bria, have you raised any money? What's your philosophy or thoughts around raising some investment capital? I have never tried, honestly. Okay. Well, how do you feel about trying? I would love to do that and see what I could do with it. Yeah. By the way, Michael, you mentioned this briefly, but I think it's worth just kind of double-clicking on this. You did start a nonprofit called Safewoods. Yeah. Uh, which I guess, and I'm going to try to describe this and you can correct me. It's like an, it's like an eco tourism nonprofit where people can go and fight, like learn about how to fight wildfires on their vacations, basically.

49:49Is that right? More or less. And it's had a bit of a meandering journey, but we kind of started out wanting to raise awareness for the importance of fuel mitigation work and forest management work. And so we thought, could we create opportunities for individuals or companies looking to do kind of an eco retreat or some community service type thing to come out to our spot in Montana and work with the U.S. Forest Service to do the fuel mitigation work, learn how it all works, and then go back to their communities and spread the gospel. Where it has migrated a little bit towards is bringing influential people in business and government out into the wildland to learn about this work to hopefully influence public policy.

50:40And we've had some really great success so far. That's super cool. Michael, I'm seeing an incidental wildland Safewoods collab. Like, you know, you get all these CEOs. Yeah, who do you buy your uniforms from? Get your CEOs out there. They want to dress up like firefighters. Well, you can count on that. So hit me up on LinkedIn and we'll do it. But it doesn't sound like demand is your problem. I'd hate to create more of a challenge for you, but we'll absolutely get these outfits on our staff and on the U.S. Forest folks if they're willing to do it. And then our guests, of course. But I think you should really think about raising some money.

51:17You have the seedlings of a really kind of big idea here, and it's not more than the seedlings. It's already starting to grow. And I think, gosh, pardon the annoying pun, but it's time to put some fuel on the fire and create a little bit of buzz around this. And I really think there are folks out there that can help you make the stuff, whether those are individuals, doing it in more of a homespun way, kind of like you're doing. And then I think there's probably some quasi-industrial sources that you could lean on to help you. But you're going to need some money to go around and travel to meet them and learn about them.

51:58And then maybe you're going to need some cash because you're probably not going to get debt right away. You're probably going to need to put some equity capital into your first inventory purchases. But I would say don't be afraid of raising money. I think you could probably raise from both investors that look to invest in companies that are for profit, but also because this is such a public good. I bet you could get some funding from folks that invest in nonprofits as well. Michael, I think that's an interesting idea. But don't you think that in order for Bria to attract capital, the vision has to go beyond firefighting like for workwear, welders, electrical, utility workers down the road, like something like that?

52:42Well, I think that – I think it's a great point. I think you always want to go if you're pitching – short answer is it depends who you're pitching. But you can never go wrong with going out with a big vision for how you're going to grow beyond your initial category. So it's great advice. And, and, you know, you should think beyond that. That said, you might find yourself, you know, talking to folks who invest in fire, you know, wildland fire nonprofits, you know, that might say, well, this actually feels like a public good that's connected to our mission. So you may not need to do it, but I would say if you have ideas for other categories, some of which Guy just mentioned that are great ones, absolutely include that in your pitch.

53:21because what investors want to hear is the big idea. How is this going to be the next category killer and disrupt an industry? And you have a great story, female firefighter. I mean, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there aren't that many female firefighters, wild firefighters. I just probably the vast majority are men. Yeah, I think the last statistic I heard was the wildland fire scene is about 87 % male. Okay, so 13 % of these firefighters are women. I mean, you've got a natural story here. So there's a lot of sort of media, I can imagine a lot of media opportunities to tell that story down the road.

54:00But I really think that it's an interesting idea, right? If you want to scale this up, you got to find a better supply chain, and you've got to figure out ways to make to sort of lower costs so you can focus on expanding the business. One just quick thought, and I really I hesitate to bring this up, but I'm going to anyway, because I'm a huge, huge proponent of making things locally and domestically. And you emphasize American made everything. But I wonder if there's a world where some of the products, some of the sourcing can come from overseas that might lower costs. Sure. Yeah, it probably would.

54:37And that's honestly not something that I've really entertained the idea of up to this point. But there are a lot of good options as far as ethically sourcing overseas production. And, you know, if it got to that point, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Yeah. Michael, any last thoughts for Bria before we send her off into a collaboration with Safewoods? I would love to see you raise a couple bucks. I think you can do it. It's a good product. It's a great story. There's a big market to disrupt and have fun with. And you're already having success. I think you've got all the ingredients of a good fundraising story.

55:18So it might not come naturally to you, but I would encourage you to do it. There's a lot of knowledge out there on the web to help you with your pitch and help you fine tune it. But look, don't hesitate. I think it's something that you'll be really good at. Bria Fleming, Incidental Wildland, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you both so much. And Michael, thanks so much for your work in the fire mitigation space. That's really awesome. Thank you, Bria. Good luck. Awesome. I mean, I know you live in L.A. You spend a lot of time in L.A., but California obviously has had some serious issues with wildfires.

55:56How did you get into that? Like, why did you decide to do that? And just at a certain point when you live in the West, you're going to collide with this issue in some way, and you're going to know somebody that's been affected by it. And as somebody who I had just stepped down as CEO of Dollar Shave Club in January of 21, and I was looking for something to sink my teeth into, and I got smoked out of this vacation. And I just kind of went deep down the rabbit hole to learn about wildfire and wildland fire and all the policy-related issues, et cetera, and decided to start Safewood. So, yeah, it was sort of outside of my wheelhouse, but I'm really glad I've done it.

56:38It's connected me to some really incredible people, both on the federal government side, at the U.S. Forest side, and then other really big thinkers in the policy space.

57:16That's awesome. some of the best advice I would have given myself back then probably would have been more on the personal side. I was consumed with the business and making it successful. And I think in some ways that pulled me out of being more present in some other areas of my life. And so I think I would have tried to give myself some advice around just taking it as it comes, creating more personal time for you and space for other things in your life, that would have been really helpful. I think I would have felt calmer throughout the journey. At the same time, it was a completely invigorating journey.

57:56And I loved every second of it, even the really, really hard stuff, even the sleepless nights. But I think with that advice, there might have been a few fewer sleepless nights. But on the professional side, I would say, learn to trust. I never had a problem trusting people outside my core competency in areas like finance or supply chain or operations because I didn't come from those backgrounds. So it was easy to trust those people. But as the team grew, and I would hire folks in marketing in other areas that were closer to my experience set, I would say, it's sometimes hard to let go of the things that you love doing, but you have to do that to achieve the right level of scale.

58:44Yeah, I love that. Michael, thanks so much for coming back on. Thank you for having me. This was super fun. That's Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. And by the way, if you haven't heard, Michael's original How I Built This episode, please go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the show notes. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. So our first investor was a company called Science throughout in Santa Monica. They gave us a$100 ,000 check. check actually no they gave us a hundred dollar check by accident first and I got all the way to the bank I literally I got to the bank and I was like here's my check for a hundred thousand you had to fill out the form that said a hundred thousand dollars and I fill it out and the woman looks at me and she's like uh-uh hey thanks so much for listening to the show this week and by the way please make sure to check out my newsletter you can sign up for it for free at guyroz.com or on Substack.

59:36And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Nora Gill with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce.

1:00:13Our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Catherine Seifer, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

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