Advice Line with Michelle Wahler of Beyond Yoga

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4:42Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is Michelle Whaler. She's the co-founder and former CEO of Beyond Yoga.

5:17Michelle, welcome back to the show. Hi, Guy. Thank you so much for having me back. I'm so excited to be here. We're excited to have you back. You were, of course, first on the show back in 2025 when you told the story of Beyond Yoga. And it was you and your co-founder, Jody Gruber-Brufsky, created this line of yoga apparel for women. And for about 10 years, you grew it really slowly, mainly through wholesalers, yoga studios, and then some department stores. But over time, your brand really started to gain traction, especially because you were one of the only big independent yoga brands. Fast forward 2021, Levi's bought the company for about$400 million.

5:57And in 2024, you stepped away from Beyond Yoga. By the way, if you haven't heard this episode, again, I know I always say it, but it is true. It's a fantastic story. And we will put a link to it in the show notes. First of all, since you've last been on, any updates for us? What's been going on in your life? So much. You know, I'm still in this mode of celebrating the win. I feel like the build of Beyond Yoga took such a long time and so much out of me. But, you know, I'm still savoring this win. And I also, you know, I'm taking this as such a blessing, an opportunity to spend time with my family and my husband in a different way.

6:40You know, Jesse was my business partner for the last 10 years at Beyond Yoga. Yeah. So it's really nice to just to get to spend time and have fun. And now I feel very fortunate. I have this opportunity to explore what makes me happy outside of Beyond Yoga. And I've been able to kind of choose my own busy and explore. I've been teaching a course on how to create culture at USC. I've created this platform called Quince Hill, and I use that as an investment and a mentorship platform. And for the most part, I spend my time talking to founders and giving advice. And that's been one of the things that really fills my cup.

7:26Yeah. You get a lot of people probably, and you're investing in businesses, that they're looking at the 20 plus years that you did what you did. and trying to figure out how to, you know, do a version of that. Yes. And, you know, I'm trying to share whatever nuggets of wisdom I have, whether it's, you know, the storytelling, whether it's, you know, sometimes people just want you to listen. Sometimes people need advice. Sometimes people need a connection to somebody who can do, you know, the web programming or the marketing or, you know, help them with inventory. And so that's the fun part. Like, for me, I always kind of wanted to be a matchmaker.

8:12That was like my thing when I was in high school and college. And now I feel like I get to be a matchmaker by helping people find the right things they need for their business, but also helping entrepreneurs find the right people that they need at the right time. I mean, now that you, again, you have some distance from it and you've looked back on it, we did on the show. What is a piece of startup advice that many people get and maybe you got that you think is just a bunch of BS? Oh, BS. I don't think you need to raise money. And I feel like everybody tells you that you have to. I think you need to know what motivates you and what you want your business to be.

8:59And no, you don't have to have it all figured out at the beginning. But I think a lot of people come in it with an exit plan. And you don't need to do that. You need to think about what is motivating you. Why are you starting this? and really lean into that and build a sustainable business and not focus on the exit. You know, once people start bringing on investors, that becomes the focus and that changes the trajectory of your company. So as long as you can do things on your terms, I say do it. You don't have to be the next anthropic and you probably won't be. But there's nothing wrong with building a smaller, sustainable business that gives you the freedom to live your life and support yourself.

9:47And you don't have to chase a mammoth exit. Yeah, fair enough. Michelle, what do you say? Should we take our first call? I love it. Let's do it. All right, let's do it. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Michelle Whaler, co-founder of Beyond Yoga. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one line, please, about your business. Hi, I'm Carrie Angoff. I'm based in Paris, France, and I'm the founder of Elective Study Abroad, which reimagines study abroad for adults. Okay, welcome to the show, Carrie. So, study abroad for adults. I love this. Is that basically what it is?

10:21Like adults can do a study abroad program? Yeah. Right now, we run week-long seminar-style courses for adults of any age. It's mostly but not only retirees. Each course focuses on a topic that's brought to life in a particular place. So think architecture and cuisine in southern Spain or world religions in Istanbul. And each elective is taught by a local instructor who is deeply connected to both the topic and the destination. Wow. OK, so, Carrie, when did you start this business? Just last year. It's been about a year and a half. And how has it been going so far? I mean, this sounds amazing. I'm sure every time you describe it to people, they say, I want to go.

11:02How's it been going so far? It's going well. By the end of this year, we will run five courses with a total of 26 students, which sounds small, but that's the idea. It is a niche market and it is meant to be boutique. The idea is that there's never more than 10 people in a group. And so everyone, especially people who are retired and have different backgrounds and different careers kind of bring their own perspective on these topics. And the discussions can be almost as rich as the seminars themselves. Yeah, I bet. Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question? So people are really enthusiastic about elective.

11:44Everyone tells me how much they want to do it. I have strong click-through rates, very specific email inquiries, and regular requests to book calls to learn more about the program. But getting people to go from that excitement about the prospect of doing an elective to actually enrolling has been a challenge. So I've played around with things like deadlines and discounts to get people to book, but neither one of them seems to have a real effect. So I'm looking for advice on better ways to create a real sense of urgency to get people to say, OK, now I want to do this. Got it. OK, Michelle Whaler, I want to bring you in here.

12:20You've got a little bit more time on your hands. I mean, eight days studying, you know, art and culture in Montpellier or, you know, the history of the city in Palermo. I mean, it sounds amazing. Sounds incredible. I absolutely think this is a fantastic idea and so nice to meet you and congratulations on what you've built. So I just want to make sure I understand because I'm looking at your website right now and I see, I think it's five different courses that are offered multiple times throughout the year. Yes. By the end of this year, we'll have run one of each of the five that you see. Yeah.

12:56Okay. When I think about this, I'm like, oh, you are selling an experience. You're not selling the class. You're selling an experience. And so when I look at the website, my first image that I'm seeing right now is like a bunch of people standing, looking at a map. And then the second one is a bunch of people in a classroom. And I feel like that could be almost anywhere. And I wonder if there is a way in those first two images to hit people with like, you know, if it's in Paris, seeing the Eiffel Tower in the background or something that you just can't get anywhere else in the world. And then my other thought is, maybe you just need like a better filtration system before they're getting to you.

13:44Like I see that it just says like book a call, right? But maybe you need to have like a couple filtered questions before they get to that call. Like, are you ready to go on a seven day immersive experience? Are you excited to spend, I would imagine this is expensive, how much does a general course cost? Average right now is$6 ,200. Great. So are you willing to invest$6 ,000 in a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for yourself? And then are you committed to being a lifetime learner? If you said yes enthusiastically to all of these, let's talk. But maybe you can weed out some of those phone calls that aren't translating.

14:34Yeah, that's interesting. I love that idea of kind of leading people down the path a little further. That's not something that I really hadn't thought about at all. The other point that you brought up is interesting because it's something I grapple with a lot. And it's precisely the reason why the Eiffel Tower isn't on the website is there are a lot of travel opportunities out there. You know, it's a tight market. And I'm really trying to differentiate this as an educational experience and that it's not about going to see the sites. It's about going to build this kind of community of lifelong learners, as you said, and have access to an expert and their connection to the city in a very different way.

15:17But I do worry that maybe something's getting lost when someone is comparing it to other travel opportunities. Kerry, I would suspect because you're talking to people, they're booking a call with you and then they're not following up. And I would suspect that there are a variety of reasons why. I mean, I think of Backroads, for example, which we did on the show a few months ago. And Backroads, a huge travel company, people go on it because they want to cycle. And you are alone on the bicycle for much of the day and then you're socializing with the group a little bit here and there. But if you don't love the group, it's OK.

15:52In this case, you are going to be with a cohort for eight days. It's going to be intensive. Now, this is a self-selecting group. These are people who really want to immerse themselves in learning. So there's a pretty good chance that if you are attracted to this, the people who go on it are going to be people you're going to want to be around. But I still think that what's stopping people from like really like hitting the go button is they're thinking like, you know, I don't know. I won't know anybody. I'm nervous about it. So a couple of things I think you should you should think about. I think the first thing is you should sell the cohort.

16:28Yeah. You know, you should say, hey, it's not just the course. It's like spend eight days with, you know, 10 other people who are just as curious about Renaissance or whatever it is, like are just as passionate as you are. I also think you want to get testimonials on the site. Like maybe they're there. I didn't see them from people like I was nervous at first. I know anybody. I almost didn't go. I can't believe I even considered not going. It was life changing, whatever, whatever it is, because I think you really want to lean on that. And then I also I think you've got itineraries on here, maybe.

17:03But if somebody does a call with you, you may want to send a follow up email. It's like, hey, just want to send you the reading list for this program. Just check this out. Yeah, I've actually I'm in the process of updating some of the web pages now and adding in a button to click to request a sample syllabus. Great. Because I think that's a great way to just increase the communication with the people. And it's giving them something that is not necessarily public, but I'm not going to just throw it out there for anyone. You have to tell me you want it. That's my thinking anyway. That's great. Guy, you just made me think of something.

17:37You know, partnering with some like high end bespoke travel agencies or, you know, some higher end senior, almost like independent living places would be a good way for you to get a group of people to go. You know, like my mom lives in an independent community where she's 79 and there's all of these people who she spends time with and they are all retired and they're looking for opportunities to do exciting things. But I think it is scary to go by yourself. So maybe if you partner with some of these different communities, you could get four or five people to book at one time. And I think that could be a great top of funnel for you.

18:24Yeah, that's a fantastic idea. One last thought I had for you, Kerry. And this is a little counterintuitive because everyone's talking about social media, social media. But I think you might want to experiment with maybe even advertising in a print publication like the New York Review of Books or the London Review of Books where you have a certain type of person who's older, over 50, who is clearly intellectually curious. you might be able to, you know, with a thousand dollars, that's not not not consequential, but you could probably buy a small ad for a thousand dollars in one of those publications and you might be surprised at how many people respond.

19:06Okay, great. Good, good thinking, Guy. Well, I will consider that. It's hard to imagine an ad in a print publication working in this day and age, but that would make me really happy. Yeah, yeah. Okay, elective study abroad, Carrie Angoff, good luck. Thank you for calling in. Thank you both. Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to do that trip. You know, we, so when we travel, my wife, she spends a lot of time making like reading material for me and my kids when we go on trips. I mean, like very extensive reports and like day-to-day itineraries. And then she spends a lot of time looking for guides. And it's amazing.

19:47Like I've learned so much. So this just looks really cool. Really cool. I would absolutely try this. And I think it seems like a great way to get an experience in a short amount of time, but like become an expert on something. I love it. Yeah. We're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

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26:26Run your game.

26:35Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Michelle Whaler, co-founder of Beyond Yoga. And we are taking your calls. And Michelle, you ready for our next call? Absolutely. All right, let's bring our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi, I'm Michelle. I'm Grace. I'm calling from Nashville, Tennessee. I own Grace Ann Upholstery, which is a custom upholstery workroom that primarily serves interior designers and residential clients. I reupholster all types of furniture, anything from heirloom pieces like your grandmother's antique chair that needs to be recovered, to brand new furniture that clients just want fresh fabric on.