Advice Line with Miguel McKelvey of WeWork

13:34Miguel McKelvey:Okay. Miguel McKelvey, I want to bring you in. Thoughts for Jane or questions that you might have for her?

13:41Guy Raz:Yeah. First thing, the pants are great. I'm sad you don't have them in men's size for a six foot eight man because I love the patterns. Very cool. Thank you. I am curious, Just one question. I know you're getting attention for these beautiful patterns, but do people want them in black or gray or more neutral colors? Yes. Yes. I've definitely heard that request, which could be another whole conversation, because I hear both that I should be following my customers' demands, but then also kind of true to my brand, which is meant to be colorful, exciting pants. And what is your exact bottleneck? Is it that the factory can't produce as many pants as you need to sell?

14:31Guy Raz:Or is it also that you need enough customers who can spend$300 on a pair of pants? Yeah, it's really more the latter. It's finding the customer base of people who value high quality local manufacturing. and really I think of the pants as like wearable art. When people say to me, when are you going to make black pants? I say, well, go to Banana Republic. I'm not making black pants. Like the whole idea is that these are like an art form you're wearing. Got it. And one more question on that. Where have you gotten the customers who have spent$15 ,000 so far? I mean, of course, a huge part of my customer base is my friends and family and people who graciously want to support me.

15:16Guy Raz:But then also the boutique where I sell things locally is all local designers. It's all high end. It's all kind of in that price range.

15:26Miguel McKelvey:So right now, the price point is high, about$295 for a pair of pants. And you know this. And part of it is because it's made in a small factory in Minneapolis and you're sourcing the material, the fabric from the U.S. So that makes sense. But before I address it, what do you want this to be? Do you want this to be a bigger brand? Do you want it to be a bigger side hustle? What is your ambition here?

15:57Guy Raz:I would love for it to be a successful side hustle that could kind of slowly grow and eventually become potentially something bigger when I'm kind of more toward the end of my career in medicine. Right now, I'm 54. I'll probably work in medicine for another, I don't know, 6, 8, 10 years. And it would be nice for this to be something kind of on the side that would evolve. I've actually thought I'm working with my manufacturer on a new design for spring. And I was thinking maybe it could evolve into a business that has like drops quarterly. So I maintain the small batch, high quality standards. Yeah.

16:47Miguel McKelvey:Miguel, I'm curious to get your take on what I'm about to say, because I mean, there are two obvious paths, right? There's manufactured this more cheaply, which is maybe outsourced and go overseas. Or the other option is keep it where your price point is at, but you've got to do a better job at explaining why. So Miguel is part owner of a brand called American Giant. We've featured on the show. It's a great brand. Made in the U.S. Fabrics are sourced in the U.S. Cotton is even picked in the U.S. and you from the moment you go to the website you understand that it's a little bit it's a little bit more expensive than what you might pay for you know a hanes t-shirt but you understand why go to your website nothing that you've told us is here you don't know it's made in a factory in minneapolis by a group of women it's handmade these are hand sourced it's all i mean because now i need to know why i'm paying 295 and then but that story starts to make sense miguel do you do you think that moves the needle that, you know, when people know those things, it moves the needle?

17:54Guy Raz:100%. It moves the needle. But I think you have to tell that story over and over and over. It's not just a one time thing. Like you need to be on Instagram, telling your personal story, and why you care about the product and the way it's made. And then also have the story of the people making it and the story of where the fabric comes from. All those things are really meaningful and giving your why will be what really translates to people. So I would say doing that would be really powerful. And then the other thing is, um, the products look great. The UGC, like the reviews, um, looking at like the women wearing the pants when they've taken their own photo, those are amazing.

18:35Guy Raz:If you could get some of those ambassadors who would do the same thing, who would go on to social media and share their story of why they love the pants, to their networks, that would be great because it really translates. The fact that these bright, funky patterns are so beautiful in a photo. And there's one where actually a woman is standing with three other women and her pants compared to theirs, it's like, you're like, those are some great pants.

19:00Miguel McKelvey:She's at like a music festival. Yeah.

19:02Guy Raz:I mean, that sells the product itself, but you got to get that out there as much as you can and then put the why behind it. Right. Another thing I would suggest would be going to a local restaurant and gifting the pants to some of the servers and asking them to wear them or a coffee shop where people can see them behind the counter because they really jump off the page. I'm sure the more they're in public, people will say, hey, where are those pants from? Just brainstorm everywhere someone could see these pants because they don't need to work that hard. Just showing up does a lot for these pants, but you need to get them out there.

19:44Guy Raz:I've said like a big marker of success for me would be if I saw a stranger, someone I don't know, wearing my pants at our local grocery store. That's like, that's one of my goals.

19:56Miguel McKelvey:Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's awesome. I think you need to really double down on the story here. Yeah. And not just on the website, but anywhere you can. So people understand what they're buying. I mean, they're buying something that's artisanal, right? That's a real craft-made product. Right, right, exactly. That isn't just made in a giant factory and put on a huge container ship. Yeah. So that, to me, is critical. And as Miguel said, you want to use any channel you can to tell that story and for people to understand where it's coming from and how it's made.

20:31Guy Raz:Right, for sure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

20:34Miguel McKelvey:The brand is called Copa Threads. Jane Artel, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck.

20:39Guy Raz:Thank you.

20:41Miguel McKelvey:All right, we're going to take a very short break. Back in just a few minutes, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

20:55Miguel McKelvey:When I first started How I Built This, one of the very first tangible things I ever made was a stack of business cards. Nothing fancy, just my name, the logo, and the title. But I remember holding those cards in my hand and thinking, wow, this is real now. And that moment actually inspired me to think bigger. If I can make business cards, why not make something for listeners? T-shirts, sweatshirts, stickers, you know, things people could wear and share and see out in the world. Well, that's exactly what Vistaprint helps small businesses do, turn ideas into real, tangible products you can be proud of.

21:31Miguel McKelvey:Vistaprint supports you at every step from choosing the right product to getting the design just right. They've got you covered. Whether you need a small tweak or a full on rebrand, Vistaprint offers design services that fit your style and your budget. Vistaprint, print your possible. Right now, new customers get 20 % off with code NEW20 at vistaprint.com.

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22:22Miguel McKelvey:Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat.

22:34Miguel McKelvey:Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Miguel McKelvey, co-founder of WeWork. And we are taking your calls and let's bring in our next caller.

22:46Guy Raz:Hi, Guy and Miguel. My name is Melissa Jenski. I'm in Santa Fe, New Mexico. I'm the co-founder of Good Grief. We're an online gifting company that specializes in care packages for life's twists and turns. So anything from loss of a loved one, loss of a pet, infertility, miscarriage, cancer and illness, mental health and wellness, breakup, job loss, and more. Wow.

23:07Miguel McKelvey:Okay. Well, welcome to the show. So, all right. So Good Grief, these are care packages that you send to somebody who's going through a rough time.

23:17Guy Raz:Yeah. So we've intentionally chosen products that are practical and support healing and self-care. So we have a ton of books and journals focused on specific type of losses, consumables like teas, cookies, chocolate for all the emotional eating, cozy things like socks and candles, sleep masks, hot, cold packs, and then some beauty and wellness. So bath soaks, aromatherapy type products, lots of eye gels for all the puffy crying eyes. And then we also have some services that you can add to your care package to book things like one-on-one grief coaching and things like that.

23:53Miguel McKelvey:That's cool. How did this idea come about?

23:55Guy Raz:Yeah, so we are a family-run business. My sister is my co-founder, Kristen. She's in the UK. And it was really born out of personal experience. I always like to joke that I got the short straws in the family. When I was 29, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune condition called rheumatoid arthritis. and then in my 30s I experienced um infertility and a miscarriage and around that same time we had a family member whose spouse died by suicide and it really just hit me that I think as a society we're not super great you know we are super great at celebrating all the good stuff the weddings and anniversaries and new babies when it comes to the tough stuff I think we can really fall short

24:34Miguel McKelvey:we don't know what to say exactly we don't know what to say we don't know what to do sometimes we

24:39Guy Raz:say the wrong thing. Sometimes we don't say anything at all. So I really wanted to fix that. And during the pandemic, we were home working like everyone else. And my sister and I just started talking more. And I think we were both pretty frustrated with our jobs. And I was like, hey, I have this business idea. What do you think? And she was like, yeah, let's do it. I don't I think I was crazy because I was working full time. I had a two and a half year old at home. I don't even know how I pulled it off, but we launched in six months. So we launched in April of 2021. And I think, I know that a box of stuff isn't going to fix anything.

25:16Guy Raz:It's not going to take away grieving, but we really just hope it provides an icebreaker or a bridge for people to connect and really show up with genuine care and empathy.

25:24Miguel McKelvey:And Melissa, these are, you're selling on entirely through your website?

25:27Guy Raz:Yes, all direct to consumer online.

25:29Miguel McKelvey:And tell me a little bit about how the business is doing? Yeah.

25:34Guy Raz:So for the past three years, we've been right around$200 ,000 in revenue and just can't seem to break past that. This past year was pretty challenging for us. And so we were down like 7 % from the year before.

25:48Miguel McKelvey:And how are you marketing mainly? Yeah.

25:52Guy Raz:So previously we were doing all Google ads. That's where we saw the best row ads. I think one of the challenges I think with us is the intent to buy isn't always there when people discover us, right? So when we first launched, we tried some social, but we ended up, we had such a limited budget that we ended up just going to Google Ads. We were getting great returns. And for whatever reason, it completely collapsed last summer. And so now we're really in a place where we're having to diversify our marketing efforts. And I think it's also challenging because we have so many scenarios and we touch upon so many different types of grief and loss.

26:28Guy Raz:It's great because we have lots of opportunities, But it's also like sometimes overwhelming because it's like, where do you go with it and what do you do?

26:35Miguel McKelvey:So it sounds like that's kind of your challenge or the question that you brought, right?

26:39Guy Raz:Yeah. Like what growth channels should we prioritize? And especially I think AI has really changed how paid media works and how customers are discovering brands. So, yeah, we're trying to just find, yeah, where do we put our effort, you know, limited time and resources and what will move the needle? Nice.

26:58Miguel McKelvey:All right. Miguel McElvey, I want you to jump in here, meet Melissa. Thoughts about the business, the dilemma, questions?

27:08Guy Raz:yeah I mean the first thing that came up for me when I was looking at your website was the content side of things because I would be so confused in one of these moments of what to do so even before I was going to buy a gift I was thinking could I have a guide of just how to think about it or how to feel about it and especially now with AI I imagine I would go ask you know Gemini or someone like hey this just happened in my life what do I do and so it seems like tuning your the content side both for SEO and also for AI is essential and I don't know how much you have this but having a web page for literally every single web search you can imagine that someone might make in one of these scenarios would be really smart because you know if someone goes in and they say x just happened what do i do you want to come up first in that uh in that search and and then if you optimize that page for ai crawling you know it's possible that when the person goes to ai to ask that question they're going to find you as well i would look at the same thing across everything like can you make tiktok videos that answer these questions can you make youtube videos that answer these questions like everywhere you could have content to answer this question you you want to be there to help people deal with it.

28:35Guy Raz:Yeah, that makes sense.

28:36Miguel McKelvey:Melissa, I wonder, aside from marketing through influencers or, you know, doing social media ads, have you done any work with partners at all? You know, not sort of paid media, but with like hospice organizations or, you know, oncology centers or, I mean, even funeral homes or, Or, I don't know, have you tried any of that?

29:03Guy Raz:Yeah, so we've definitely have done like lots of cold outreach for like funeral homes and things like that. We did work with Erica Sinner to launch a pets, she wrote a book called Pets Are Families. We worked with her to launch a custom care package this past year. We also have, we launched an employee gifting program as well. We get a lot of repeat customers. We were seeing lots of orders come in from places like Chewy, Nike, Microsoft, Gates Foundation. But it's just so hard to get a foot in the door. I basically begged the Gates Foundation customer to put me in touch with HR. And she was like, no, I can't do that.

29:41Guy Raz:And so there's just so much potential. But yeah, it's just hard to get a foot in, I think. And I think maybe part of it's like starting, maybe starting more locally.

29:49Miguel McKelvey:Yeah, I mean, for sure. I would start locally in Santa Fe. You know, I mean, you've got obviously smaller, probably smaller businesses there. But it would seem to me that, and it sounds like you're trying, that channel, that second channel, right, that B2B gifting channel working with HR teams could really be a game changer.

30:07Guy Raz:Yeah, definitely. Yeah, right on. I mean, managed grief in the workplace costs employers$75 billion a year and up. So, like, it's a huge, huge opportunity. I was wondering, have you tried any direct mail? have you ever you know have you made any printed cards that you sent out to people or anything like that we haven't no besides just like some flyers like in local coffee shops but no direct direct mailers no yeah I mean to me it seems like this is like a back of mind thing that you know it's it's almost like that thing you want to have on the refrigerator for when that time comes that's the way I would imagine it is that if I just saw the brand out of context I would probably forget about it.

30:49Guy Raz:But if I had it in the back of my mind, when that time came up, I would go, oh, that's where I go. But that recall is difficult. So I don't know. I kind of imagine if you've got this thing and you sort of remembered, you put it on the refrigerator, you put it in a drawer somewhere, and then that time comes and you go, oh, let me go find that card that I saw a couple months ago. That's the kind of thing you need is for the person to have recall of this option when they are searching for something that, again, is a very difficult problem to solve. Yeah, that could be really interesting. The more times someone touches a brand, the more likely they are to recall it.

31:25Guy Raz:And you might need to touch them three, four, or five times, and that card could potentially win. I would say canvas your neighborhood with some cards through the mail slot and just see. Does that result in anything? Maybe it would.

31:38Miguel McKelvey:Yeah, I love that idea. Also, Miguel, you mentioned the socials and the messaging. And increasingly, the AI scrapers are going to be what matters, right? That's the new SEO, right? And so when people ask, hey, where do I go for X, Y, and Z, these AI assistants are going to be making decisions based on what they're seeing out there in the language they're seeing. I mean, are you when you do put a little bit of money into socials, are you direct in the way you are connecting, trying to connect with people like what to send someone after a miscarriage? Like when you don't know what to say or something like do you do you have language that's really clear like that?

32:23Guy Raz:Not really. I mean, most of our Google paid ads were Google shopping and stuff like that. We tried some – we had to bring on an ad agency last summer to try to fix things and get us back on track, and it didn't work. But we did try meta and did some more kind of out there messaging and just didn't really see much happen. We are focusing a lot on SEO and blog writing to try to get those AI crawlers. We have seen a handful of orders come from AI.

32:53Miguel McKelvey:But I think this idea of just a clear message that Miguel was alluding to, like, people want to help, right? When something happens to somebody, our instinct is to help, and often we don't know how to help. And so maybe it's like, literally a message is like, how do you help somebody who just got a horrible diagnosis? Here's how you comfort somebody who had a miscarriage, and they click, you know, or here's how you show support to somebody, you know, who's struggling with infertility.

33:22Guy Raz:Yeah.

33:23Miguel McKelvey:What you want to telegraph is your problem is you don't know how to help and we are your solution.

33:30Guy Raz:Yeah. You can solve the problem. Yeah. I would just, as a point on that, I was speaking to someone who worked on SEO for a payments company. I won't say which one. They said they have literally thousands of SEO pages for every single thing that someone might need a payment for. Oh, goodness. Okay. And that's, I was overwhelmed by that, but I was also like, it's so smart. You want to be the answer in that moment when someone needs you. And a lot of that is just, you've got to be at kind of the top of the list. Cranking out. Yeah. All of that. And also, are you doing any email follow-up? Like, do you send out a weekly or a monthly newsletter to the people who have purchased?

34:11Guy Raz:Yes, we do have an email that goes out a couple, twice a month. Got it. So you are staying in front of mind with the people who have purchased before and what's your repeat business like are people typically coming back after they buy the first time yeah our return customer rates around 20 and i do you know once i want to field some customer service calls i just had one the other day and i asked her how she found out about us about us and it was she had been gifted something so i think that happens a lot someone's gifted been gifted a care package and then they come back to buy it for someone else.

34:44Guy Raz:Got it. Yeah. I mean, again, it seems like because this is so situational, you need people to think of you in that exact right moment. So the more often you touch them, and this is, I think, a big debate amongst email, and I'm not an email expert, but email, when it's there, you find it. When it's pushed down 200 emails in your inbox, the chance that you find it is low. So maybe experimenting with one of these AI products that can help you with some email automation to just test some different things would be helpful because, you know, you want to stay front of mind for your customers. So whenever that moment comes, you know, they think of you first.

35:23Guy Raz:Yeah, definitely.

35:24Miguel McKelvey:Yeah, absolutely. The brand is called Good Grief. Melissa Jensky, thanks for calling in. Good luck.

35:29Guy Raz:Thank you so much.

35:31Miguel McKelvey:All right, we're going to take another quick break here. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

35:53Miguel McKelvey:Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with WeWork co-founder Miguel McKelvey. Miguel, ready for our next caller?

36:03Guy Raz:Let's do it.

36:04Miguel McKelvey:All right, cool. Welcome to The Advice Line. Your honor with Miguel McKelvey. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

36:12Guy Raz:I'm Lee Wright. I'm near Boston in Wildboro, and I'm the founder of The History List Store. We provide things for people who are passionate about history. Nearly everything we offer is designed by us. Nearly everything we offer is made in America.

36:26Miguel McKelvey:Awesome. Welcome to the show, Lee. So The History List is a – help me understand a little bit. I'm looking at the website, but help me understand what you sell.

36:35Guy Raz:So I started out as a content site, the history list, for information about events and so on and so forth. And this is really an outgrowth of that. I was looking for a way to cover some of those costs and so designed a History Nerd t-shirt. And that was back in 2016. We now have hundreds of SKUs covering a wide range of historical topics, a wide range of product types, and so forth.

36:58Miguel McKelvey:Like t-shirts, hats, pins?

37:01Guy Raz:Exactly, exactly. And like our – you know, we do some fun things, the Thomas Jefferson breakup letter T-shirt for Valentine's Day. We do also offer very selected antiques and rare finds, things that could be a ship's passport signed by John Tyler, a World War I or World War II coaster, that sort of thing.

37:25Miguel McKelvey:So, all right. So it's a combination of like products like T-shirts and prints and caps, even jewelry. But then you also have some antiques that you sell. And I guess the thing that jumps out at me is the T-shirt that says huzzah, which is cool, which is what they would chant during the Revolutionary War. Like that was sort of a, right. It is. It is. And then you see in the dot and the exclamation mark, it says 1776. Right. All right. And tell me how the business is doing.

37:51Guy Raz:So we did about$750 ,000 last year, and it's really been driven by my passion for helping connect people to history. And we have customers that come in. They're going to buy something for a relative perhaps. And we have other customers who place 50 different orders, 60, 75, and so forth. And we get great feedback, great reviews. People really love the things.

38:18Miguel McKelvey:Okay. Okay. And mainly you sell through the website or entirely through the website?

38:24Guy Raz:The vast majority through the website. We sell through some selected historic sites. We have some partners that go, for example, to reenactments and so forth, right? They'll set up a tent and offer our things.

38:37Miguel McKelvey:Awesome. Okay. Before we dive in further, what's your question for us?

38:40Guy Raz:So this is the 250th anniversary of the founding of the country. Yes, indeed. How do we increase our customer base and drive down the cost of customer acquisition?

38:50Miguel McKelvey:All right. Miguel McKelvey, I want to bring you in. A cool, really cool stuff on this site. And here we are. Year 250 of America's founding. Thoughts, ideas, answers?

39:02Guy Raz:Well, first, you said you wanted to bring down the cost of customer acquisition. What is it costing you now? Blended CAC of around$20. $20? $20. Is that not very low? I would love to acquire customers for$20. That sounds great. It's not bad. A lot of the things we do are through Facebook and so forth. We have tried a number of the obvious things in terms of either reaching out partnerships to publishers, trying to do more with historic sites. But the thing that we just keep coming back to is social. Right. So what's your average order value? $80. Okay. So you're spending$20 to get an$80 customer.

39:50Guy Raz:And then what's your margin? If someone spends$80 on that, what's your gross margin? Yeah. So overall, the margin's around 50%. Not bad. One of the challenges, of course, is making things in the United States. but our customer base I think values that I certainly value that and it reinforces our our made by America message yeah I mean I'm thinking this all sounds pretty good you got $750 ,000 on a 50 % margin you're only spending$20 per customer like all that sounds sounds great if I was going just on that, I would be saying just spend more money on more advertising at$20 per customer. It sounds like you have great stories to tell and you just may need to go directly to the public with these stories.

40:44Guy Raz:I don't know if you have a TikTok, for example, but people love to learn through TikTok. You might need to go post a TikTok a day with a cool historical narrative and people will start gravitating directly to you. So TikTok is interesting. We've talked a lot about it. We have about 60 ,000 followers on Facebook, about 14 ,000 or whatever on Insta. We've debated whether or not our target market is on TikTok, but I think it's worth giving it a try. Generally, our target market skews older. um and it's only a matter of time you know we always say like the older people are on these other platforms but you know age is always elevating and you know the platforms people are on are always changing and again i think what you find in the difference between tiktok and instagram is you know narrative like rough storytelling real people in front of a camera That's really on TikTok these days, and it's less so on some of these other platforms.

41:47Guy Raz:So it's worth experimentation at least. That's a great idea.

41:51Miguel McKelvey:Let me throw something out there because you mentioned that your audience is older, and I think that's probably true, and that's still a very valuable audience. I mean, you definitely don't want to ignore those folks. I wonder a couple things here. First of all, Facebook is where I would really focus because that's where there's an older crowd. But forget about social media for a sec. I think that there are two opportunities here. One is if you've got some cash and you don't need a whole lot, I would seed little advertisements on history podcasts and or try and collaborate. See if you can contact some of these history podcasts.

42:31Miguel McKelvey:They're huge, by the way. And see if you can make bespoke things for them that would drive their audience to your site. Like some of them probably don't have merch. Maybe you can be a merch person for them.

42:45Guy Raz:Absolutely. So that's a great idea. We tried that early on, and it didn't pay off. I, some time ago, talked directly to a fellow who puts together just a great podcast series. It's one I think you guys are probably familiar with. And that was the pitch, right? Like, hey, you don't have merch. I can help you there. And the answer was, we're going to do our own merch.

43:08Miguel McKelvey:Well, but maybe you can buy advertising. Right. I mean, that's what I'm saying.

43:12Guy Raz:Well, exactly. And that was my next question. And they are a podcast that's carried by one of the large podcast networks. And, you know, they're handling the advertising. And it's going to advertisers with large budgets, more brand budgets than.

43:28Miguel McKelvey:Look for smaller shows. I mean, yes, you can ask the big one. Go to a smaller show that doesn't isn't doing that, that has an audience of 10 ,000, not 100 ,000. What I'm saying is there's always a way, especially if you're trying to reach a very specific audience. The other thing I would consider doing is make your own. I mean, if you have your own, even if you are reaching just a fraction of your followers on TikTok and your customers, maybe you've got a newsletter. Now you've got a podcast that you can once a week where maybe you're highlighting some cool thing in history and you're also talking about how it inspired something that you guys make or sell.

44:11Guy Raz:That's a good idea. Our newsletter is very successful. We have a 50 % open rate. We mail to folks every Saturday with the new merchandise every Thursday night with our rare finds. One other thing would be finding those really niche, interesting facts. I don't know how much you're doing this on social media already, but sharing things that are surprising, that are, wow, I didn't know that in small bits. A lot of people, this is a niche for, right? You know your niche, right? Then there's a whole other group of people who don't put themselves in that niche, but could be attracted to it with something a little less obscure or maybe something obscure that's really accessible and fun.

44:55Guy Raz:So I would continue to expand the edges of your appeal and just experiment. Try, whether it's podcasts, whether it's one of these other platforms, just try to get more experiments out there to see what catches on. Well, we're very fortunate. We have one of the most successful history folks on social, History Dame doing our social. And she just does a fabulous job doing exactly what you're talking about, putting out some of these things, whether or not that's something obscure or something that is just very timely, like the 250th.

45:32Miguel McKelvey:Awesome. Well, it sounds like you've got some momentum there. And listen, I mean, it sounds like you've got some ideas in place. And I think you should try a podcast, Lee. You should try it. Well, thanks. Thanks.

45:43Guy Raz:And Guy, I think you had a master's degree in history. Isn't that right? I do. Well, I hope we see you someday. And I really want to thank you both for the great podcast. I think this is one of the really indispensable resources for people who are founders.

45:57Miguel McKelvey:That's our goal here. Lee Wright, the brand is called The History List. Good luck. Thanks so much for calling in. All right. Miguel, one of the questions I ask every founder who comes back on the show is if you could go back to when you were starting out, building your business, certainly WeWork and others, and you could go back and give yourself advice about something you know now that you've learned that would have been helpful for you to know back then. What could have been helpful back then for you to know? I think what would be helpful for me to know is to be more critical about the things that I was

46:37Guy Raz:bad at to think more critically about things that I avoided you know because I think I knew for example that I really didn't care about money it wasn't a motivator for me so as soon as I had an opportunity to hire a CFO and never think about money again, you know, I did it. But that sort of out of sight, out of mind, it's not a great model for entrepreneurship. You know, I think you have to be responsible for everything when you're a founder. And so that's what I would say is like, really go back and like, go through all the things and say, okay, you love this. You don't like this. But if you let that go, what's going to happen?

47:17Guy Raz:And I would encourage people, myself and others to do that, to kind of go into the things that you don't like as much as you do the things that you love.

47:25Miguel McKelvey:I love that. That's Miguel McKelvey, co-founder of WeWork. Miguel, thanks so much for joining the show. Thank you. And by the way, if you haven't heard Miguel's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go back and check it out, both of them. We will put links to them in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from those interviews.

47:45Guy Raz:So they showed it to us. I'm like, wow. Like for me, as coming from a design background. I'm like, this is sick. This is as good as it gets. And they're basically like, okay, here's the building. What would you do with it? So basically I go home and I start thinking of a concept of a name. I buy the domain. I build a website. I design some floor plans, really simple. Do like a quick like business model. I stayed up all night. Wait, wait, you did this in one night? Yeah, basically because we had been challenged with like, what are you going to do? And we have no credibility, right? So my thought was, if I do all this stuff and come back tomorrow, it'll seem like we were planning it for weeks in advance, right?

48:27Miguel McKelvey:Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyroz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well.

49:07Miguel McKelvey:This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablui. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Kweisi Lee. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Noor Gill, Neva Grant, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, and Ramelle Wood. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

49:39Thank you.