Advice Line with Norma Kamali of Norma Kamali

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3:25Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you.

4:07And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyros.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is fashion designer, legendary fashion designer, Norma Kamali. Hey, Norma, welcome back to the show. I'm happy to be back. It's so great to have you back on the show. You were first on How I Built This in 2021. And of course, you told the story of how you built your hugely influential fashion business. And of course, if those of you listening have not yet heard that story, please check out our feed.

4:47We've just posted the original episode and we'll also put a link in the description. It is such an amazing story. But basically in the 60s, Norma was working as an airline clerk and then using her employee discount to fly to London and then buy up clothes, sort of secondhand clothes there, and then open a store in New York to sell them. Eventually start designing your own clothing. And you created all these iconic pieces, Farrah Fawcett's red swimsuit, the sleeping bag jacket, and really built one of the first great American brands. And let me just say it again, Norma, you are a legend. Eight decades of life, and you are still actively running your brand out of New York City today.

5:33Yep. Yes, very actively and enjoying every minute of it. I feel privileged to have a creative life. I'm very lucky. And total inspiration, Norma. You really are. We have a bunch of early stage founders here ready to jump on. But before they do, if you'll indulge me, I've got a couple of questions for you before we bring them on. So, you know, you really built your brand on designs that stood out in part because they were so different. They were kind of weird at the time. But just because customers love a product, right, and they love and loved yours, it doesn't always mean that the business is profitable.

6:16There was a point in your journey where you were really hot in the New York fashion world, but you guys were having trouble paying the rent. I remember you telling us this story. Yeah. How do you turn customer love and satisfaction and buzz around your brand into growth, into profitability? Well, I think a lot of creative people believe they're not good at business. And I believe that that's not true. I think it's something we've been fed to believe. And I think the more you can learn about business, and maybe it's by having really good mentors, I was very fortunate to have incredible advice throughout my career and learning as much as I could about how to look at where I needed help in the business, how I needed to evaluate sales versus.

7:19productivity, and also how to maximize the opportunity of the attention you're getting from the press. And that's as important as the creative concept storytelling. Norma, your brand was and is your vision, right? And I think a lot of entrepreneurs can identify with that, right, that feeling. But at a certain point, certainly in your industry, to become a global brand, you often have to partner with bigger companies, right? You worked with Walmart, you worked with, you did a lot of interesting things. So how do you protect your vision when you start to do things like, you know, work with partners, with bigger partners?

8:10That's the big challenge. And I still am the sole owner of my company, which tells you I really like to control the fit and the quality of the product. But I was copied a lot, and I wasn't making money because other people were making money for my designs. And when I knew I did a collection that I felt was strong, I partnered with Jones Apparel. And it was a huge success because I had the ability to use their manufacturing and distribution and sales with my designs and sort of storytelling. And the combination was incredibly profitable for everyone. By doing that, it gave me exposure and the ability to do many other things and also go to sleep at night knowing I could pay the rent finally.

9:14Yeah. I love it. All right, Norma, why don't we bring in our first caller? Great. And let's bring caller number one on to the show. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with me and Norma Kamali. Please introduce yourself. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business, and we'll take it from there. Well, hello. Lovely to meet you both. My name is Ahmed Ejaz. I am calling from England in the United Kingdom and I am the founder of Cambridge Spectacle Company. We make beautiful glasses and we've started to do eye examinations as well now. Amazing. Okay. Welcome to the show, Ahmed, and thank you for calling in.

9:52So you have a, is it like, are you an optometrist? Do you do like eye exams and sell glasses? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I am actually an optometrist by training. But when I started this brand, I actually quit my job as an optometrist and started focusing on designing glasses, designing prescription eyewear. Yeah, so we initially started with a sort of a distribution deal with a big company in the UK who were part of Walmart at the time, Asda Opticians. And, you know, that was great. But we've moved into opening our own optometry practices now. So, you know, sort of similar to Warby Parker in the United States, that kind of brand.

10:36I see. Okay, now I'm starting to make sense. You're basically trying to model your business off of Warby Parker in the US, like basically high designs, high-end quality designs, but at a lower price point. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, for me, Warby, when those guys, you know, did what they did, I was just sort of qualifying from university and I thought it was game changing. And I didn't quite understand why we didn't have something similar in the UK. And, you know, we weren't celebrating British Eyewear. We know we've got Oakley and Ray-Ban as American companies and there's a lot of Scandinavian companies out there.

11:12But I felt that there really needed to be a, you know, hopefully one day a global British eyewear brand that dominates. And presumably Warby Parker doesn't operate. I think they only operate in the U.S., right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I did send them an email in 2015 and I said to them, to the customer service, I'd love to start this in the U.K., but I didn't hear back. So I thought, well, I better start this myself. Nice. Well, I'm sure you heard our episode with Warby Parker with Neil Blumenthal. Both of them. Yeah. And amazing story. Okay. So what's the vision here? The vision presumably is to try and scale this thing?

11:50Yeah. So look, we're opening a second store in London in the next week or so. So we've just acquired a store there and we've acquired that customer database and all the frames are going to be changed to Cambridge Spectacle Co. frames. And then we're in negotiations right now to open a third store in Birmingham. So the goal is three sites by the end of this year. How are you financing all this? Well, it's part of my question, but we're sort of angel investor backed. So a friend of mine, he sort of said, how much do you need to get going? And I had no money, but I had a deal on the table with Asner opticians.

12:29I didn't tell them I had no money. And my friend, I told him I needed£150 ,000 to get going. And he fortunately said, I'll do you the full amount, Ahmed, because I know you and I trust you. So he kicked us off. And then we did a little bit of crowdfunding as well via a European crowd equity platform. I got a bunch of questions for you. But before I do that, I want to hear what your question is for us today. Yeah. So, look, I think, you know, that customer proposition is strong and, you know, customers seem to love our brand. But the question really is, how do we get that same kind of excitement around the brand across to investors?

13:09Because it's very difficult when you're in a pitch and you've got, you know, five, ten minutes and they're seeing pitch after pitch as angels or VC for them to fall in love with your brand. So, you know, how are we really going to be able to translate that love and show them not just the financials, but, hey, this is going to be big. You know, customers love this. How do you generate the buzz to attract investors? Just out of curiosity, what's your revenue right now? So we're doing in the store about£20 ,000 to£25 ,000, about$30 ,000 to$35 ,000 a month. That's in the first year. That's great. Okay, so you're looking at$350 ,000, maybe$400 ,000 revenue this year.

13:49Let me bring in Norma Kamali. Norma, I have a lot of questions. You may have questions for Ahmed. Go. Let's hear your thoughts. Well, I think the first question I have is what makes you different other than your ambition to use your reputation and your history and value? But it really takes a lot more to sell someone. And it has to be done maybe in a sentence or two and no more. So what is different about your product or your approach to marketing your product that would make me want to invest in your potential success? Yeah. So, I mean, I think from a customer point of view, we always tell them how our designs are inspired by Cambridge and made by us rather than any design label.

15:00When you say Cambridge, like the town of Cambridge? The university, the sort of aura of that town? Yeah, exactly. So I lived there for a while and my brother who helped out is an MBA from the university. and so we will always you know discuss with the patients the fact that we we all the glasses are inspired by that city named after roads places in that city and that's what customers seem to be responding well to and then also we we give a portion of our profits to iResearch as well but i think norma this is where i struggle that if i gave that across to an investor it's probably not the thing that excites them.

15:37Or maybe it is like, you know, it's maybe I'm just not explaining it. And they would be excited by that. Well, I must say, I now think, oh, this is interesting. It's a very authentic British brand that has the character of history and quality just by that reference and the idea of your contributing to the health and well-being of eye care. It was very nice and very a sign of goodwill on top of this classic British history that you're basing the brand on. So those two points definitely have more of my interest than the idea of the name and you're opening different, you know, brick and mortar locations.

16:29First, knowing that history and the reference definitely raises interest. You know, it's interesting because I'm looking at your website here and your question is how do we generate more buzz around the story? And the story is, if the story is Cambridge, like the university, the aura of that place, I'm not seeing enough of that. What Warby Parker did really well was, first of all, is an invented name, right? And they took two names from Jack Kerouac books and put them together. But then they named their glasses. They gave each pair of glasses, each design, like an interesting name. Like, is there a world where could you, just looking at like the list of graduates of the University of Cambridge, I mean, could you call one like George V, you know, a pair of glasses called the Cornwall?

17:18Here you go, Pitt the Younger. I love it. I love it. There's all these people who are Nehru, Nehru went to Cambridge. Could you call a pair of the Nehru's? I mean, it just seems like there's a way to connect it more closely. Because for most people, Cambridge is the university, right? Maybe even make like a pair called like the Philbees, right? Because those spies went there. To me, if the story is about Britain, Cambridge, you got to lean into that more before you're going to really be able to get people excited about it. Yeah, no, I think, Guy, that's an incredible approach and idea. You know, Prince, I think, was named when we designed that after Prince Charles at the time.

17:58He's now King Charles because he went to the University of Cambridge. But you wouldn't really know that looking at it, right? So I think, yeah, we must do better at that. And if that's what generates the buzz, and as Norma says, if, you know, you are excited by the fact that it's linked so heavily to Cambridge, then that's a great idea. Yeah. Norma, the other thing I'm wondering about is like in fashion, right? The trick is to get the cool kids to wear your stuff. Like the other thing Warby Parker did is they found the cool kids who are frugal, who didn't have money, but could wear their glasses.

18:37That's those are the people they got those glasses on, right? Norma, I mean, it's the same in fashion, right? Yeah. I've been thinking from the beginning of the conversation, Well, what's the demographic? We know if you have a great price, you can have a younger demographic. And I think having some sort of an interaction with the clients to take pictures of themselves, put it on social media, wearing your glasses, and also how many things can you do with those glasses? They can obviously be prescription. I use mine for my computer where I have a soft tint, but I also have sunglass versions of my prescription.

19:25So I think having, you know, really rolling out all the possibilities and looking at marketing it through actual evolution of your client base. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I mean, when we started the brand, we had to think about the audience and, you know, older, young. And whilst we knew older people would buy varifocals and bifocals and they would be ultimately more expensive and more profitable, we decided that, well, if you build a brand for younger people, the older people will come. But if you build a brand for older people, the younger people won't go to it, right? So, yeah, I think we do need to go back to making sure that we get the younger people in to promote the brand, as you say Warby did, yeah, which would be a great idea.

20:12There's an episode of the show we did maybe a year or two ago on Mod Pizza. And actually, the founders were on the advice line a couple of months ago. And what's cool, you should listen to that episode because their first business that they started was called Seattle Coffee Company. And they started it in a kiosk at Covent Garden. And they saw what was happening with Starbucks in the U.S. at the time. And this was in the 90s. They saw Starbucks was growing so fast. They decided to replicate that model in the U.K. They were two Americans. Allie and Scott Svensson. And they very quickly found investors to scale Seattle Coffee Company and just build, I think they built like 50 locations across the UK in just a matter of a few years.

20:57And then, of course, Starbucks came in and bought it and converted them all to Starbucks, which was a great outcome for everybody. To me, there's a world where something like that could happen, you know, where a world where Warby Parker decides to go to the UK, you know, but, but to get that kind of money and to build that scale quickly, back to your, your question, you've got to just get your story down because, because you have all the, the fundamentals, the foundation there. It's just now, um, really chiseling away and getting it right. Yeah. I mean, look, getting to 50 stores is, is, is, you know, my ambition is to get to a hundred stores.

21:38And if Warby Parker or someone comes along, we'd be happy to talk at that point. We have actually spoken to a big British VC here in the UK, and they have said that get to five stores and we will look at backing you to get to 20 with a few million pounds. But we had a connection to that investor at that VC firm. So he's been great and he's been monitoring our progress. But it's just making sure that the other VCs do follow on in that round as well. and having that kind of growth story, that war we had in America. Yeah. It's an awesome, awesome idea. I'm Eddie Jazz. Thanks so much. The brand is called Cambridge Spectacle.

22:16Good luck. Good luck. Good luck to you. Nice to meet you both. Thank you so much for the advice. That's great. I mean, he's got a little... Cromwells. I'm looking at this list. The Nehru's. So much fun. Walpoles. Yeah. He just has to name after people have been long dead. I think he has to focus on the story and creating a buzz before he opens more stores. I think getting really grounding that message, true British character and fun. Yeah. And I mean, the thing about the UK is that it's a total addressable market there is still significant, right? Population of 65 million. It's a big, I mean, it's a, you can build a huge brand just in the UK.

23:05You can't do that in every European country. It's not easy to do that in like, you know, Liechtenstein, but you can do that in the UK. Yeah. Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level. That's after the break. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

23:40Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is fashion designer Norma Kamali. Norma, what do you say? Should we take another call? I think so. Lots of fun. Hello, caller. Please join us. Welcome to the advice line. You are on with me, Norma Kamali. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just very briefly about your business. I'm Bob Wolkoff from Chicago. Big fan of the show. Sunny Bowls, which I'm the founder of, is a new category in the fast, casual restaurant industry where soup is the star of the menu. Our goal is to become the sweet green of soup.

24:18I love it. Bob, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling in the sweet green of soup. That's very clear. I can already imagine exactly what you're trying to do. So you've got one shop in Chicago right now? We have two. One at the Merchandise Mart and one at Northwestern Hospital. And when did you start this? When did you launch this brand? Well, I started it when COVID was still a thing toward the end of it. And I'm a contrarian and just believe that if I started when all the restaurants were closing and I could build brand and start to learn a business that I didn't know, that's what I did. I love it.

24:56Were you in food at the time? I mean, was that your background? My whole career was in real estate, and I had this idea when I was in my 20s, and I finally decided to open it when I was 58. I love it. So really, starting from scratch at 58, we just did a great episode about Lily's Chocolates, and Cynthia Tice was 57 when she started that brand. So you opened the first location. You've got two now, and it's soup, basically. That's what you sell? So soup is the star. So if you picture an ice cream store, but instead of ice cream, we have 10 soups that were actually designed by a James Beard award-winning chef.

25:38Nice. And you pair it or you can pair it with a sandwich or one of our salads. And in lieu of cold soup, we've designed a unique line of smoothie bowls, which actually have an ice cream-like texture, but are healthy. It's like eating a healthy ice cream, and that's designed for the summer months. Got it. Okay. And what's your question for us? So my question is that – so people love – they crave our soup after they try us, and we have a 4.9-star rating on Google. but there is a resistance to getting not the first adopters, but people that when they think of going to lunch, they think of Mexican, they think of hamburgers, they think of a salad, they don't think of soup.

26:28And the other thing is when you're competing against brands that are already well known, that we are not top of mind. And so my question is, how do we continue to acquire new customers. How do you break through, right? Oh, yeah. All right. Norma, thoughts for Bob? Questions for Bob? The first thing I'm thinking is what is the value added? Is there nutritional value? Do you have information about the ingredients? Is it It's something that's efficient for, especially for women or men who are working out and they want to keep their protein, yeah, high protein and, and really low carbs. I love soup, but I always, I want to know the value of the calories I'm eating.

27:25What will the takeaway be? So just to give you an idea, we had one customer who went to their dietician and said, you can eat everything in the store. We actually have one soup that's a wellness soup. But all of our soups are gluten-free, dairy-free with a lot of vegan options. We have 10 soups. Five of them are meat, four chicken and one delicious chili, and then five that are vegetarian. So, I mean, the reason I said sweet green is because I do look at us as in the healthy fast casual sector. The nutrition, I think, is everything. And I think really promoting so many people take supplements for good health.

28:12And if they know that in the soup, they're going to get that nutrition and have a tasty kind of lunch at the same time, that's just a bonus. Yes. Bob, I'm curious. Your question is, how do I get people to think of soup as a meal? And I imagine that really it's lunch, the lunchtime crowd that you want to focus on. And I'm looking at your website. Very nice. I love the graphics and the drawings and designs. But there's two things I don't see here. I don't see ingredients, which I think would be really great to put on there just, you know, because I'm assuming they're clean, simple ingredients. You're using vegetables and broths.

28:52The second thing is, is there a world – and you know this as a guy who's been in business for a long time. Sometimes a slogan or a mantra or a mission statement can be transformational when everyone can gather around a shared common definition of what you're doing. And I wonder if there's a world where you put something under sunny bowls instead of superfood that says, you know, a new way to lunch or a new way to think about, yeah, your meal. One of the things we're trying to do also, like on our Instagram, is have three kind of pillars. One, healthy. Two, delicious. And three, we're trying to create kind of a humorous brand to get people to connect.