Advice Line with Randy Goldberg of Bombas

24:37Hey, welcome back to the Device Line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and I'm here with Randy Goldberg, co-founder of Bombas, and we're taking your calls. Randy, let's bring in another caller. Yeah. All right. Hello, caller. Hello. Hello. Tell us your name. Tell us where you're calling from and just very briefly about your business. Hey, Guy. Hey, Randy. I'm Shyam. I'm calling in from Seattle, Washington, and I'm one of the co-founders of Play Carom, a company dedicated to popularizing and selling the very popular South Asian tabletop game, Carom. Karam. Yeah. And what's your question? So we feel like our product can be enjoyed by almost anybody from young kids to older adults, anybody in between.

25:21And we're really trying to target, you know, with the recent success of outdoor games like Spikeball and Pickleball, we see Karam as uniquely satisfying similar demand but for indoor play. So our question is, how do we hone in our marketing strategy and our brand identity when our potential user base is like so diverse and so big? Do we start with targeting specific demographics or is there a way to like broaden our scope to build our brand to kind of scale more broadly? All right. Let's tell us about Karim first. I've seen Karim boards. I was a foreign correspondent. I went around the world. Well, it's basically a wooden, generally a wooden board, like square tabletop board with like checkers pieces, tight pieces on the board, right?

26:04Exactly. Yeah, it comes in a lot of different sizes for sure. And some of the basic rules of the game. Yeah, so it's really similar to pool. If you've never played Karam, I like to say it's a combination of pool and shuffleboard. But for tabletop, you play it with your fingers, and it's similar to pool where your goal is to really just pocket all of your pieces into the corners. And do you flick it? Do you flick the caroms? Yeah, yeah, you just flick it with your hands. There's a bunch of different versions, but the popular one is you just use your hands and you just flick kind of like a striker, kind of like a cue, a pool cue, but it's called a striker.

26:37Yeah. What are the little round things called? The checkerboard pieces, what are they called? Those are called coins, yeah, carom coins. Coins, okay, and are they made out of wood? Yeah, they can be made out of wood. They can be made out of acrylic. There's a bunch of different materials that can be made out of. So one of the things that we're focusing on as a brand and company is really making a product that's a little bit unique. I'm an engineer, and I mean, we play the game almost every day. So there were a lot of things that us, as people who play it, wanted to see in a product for a wider audience.

27:09Tom, were you an engineer, by the way? I'm an engineer at SpaceX. What? Heard of it. Nice. Wow. Oh, my God. So what do you do there? Yeah, I work on the satellite factory. So I'm on the team that automates the production of all of our Starlink satellites. Wow. I have Starlink. You are literally a rocket engineer. You're a rocket engineer. We're talking about a wooden board game. Amazing. So this is like your side hustle. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, one of the things like people, everybody is on their screen all day. And when you work long hours and, you know, you're staring at a laptop all day, you don't want to get home and just watch TV with your partner or your family or friends.

27:49So I rediscovered the game recently, actually, when my partner got it for me for Christmas. And that was where, you know, the inspiration really came like, wow, this is like a great way to connect with family and friends offline, because it's not like chess or any like card games where you really have to like think and try to do stuff. It really is a really social game. And so you haven't launched your company yet, right? This is just, you want to figure out how to do it? So we're in our late stages of our manufacturing, running through our samples. I designed the board and the tooling and everything myself.

28:23But while we're feeling more confident about that side of the business, we're really trying to figure out how we can, you know, lock down the other side of it, which is how do we actually sell the thing? This is so interesting. So is this typically a family game? Yeah, typically, I would say a lot of South Asian families have a Karen board at home. It's a very popular family oriented game. I played it growing up with my family, actually, but you know, it gets pretty heated at home. So it's definitely one of those games you got to play with the right people. Well, I guess that goes for any game, right?

28:57Yeah. Is this a game where people bet on when they're playing oh yeah that's a good point um we have a couple ideas in terms of like how we would want to spin it like into a different audience like one of them is a drinking game and one of them is is yeah you don't typically bet on the game itself okay i think carom is a little bit faster a little bit more family oriented a little more wholesome i think okay in that kind of sense of the the term how much are you are you gonna sell each of these boards for yeah so the boards are going to range from 99 to 120 for the size that it is, which is two feet by two feet.

29:33Yeah. So you have an interesting task ahead of you. It reminds me a little bit of this episode we did on Guayaki Yerba Mate, which is now a huge brand, right? They're all over the United States, but for like 15 years, these guys, this group of guys had to explain to American audiences what Yerba Mate was because people would try it and it was this bitter tea that is consumed mainly in Argentina and Uruguay. But they had to explain to people the health benefits of it and like it's, you know, it's medicinal properties and how it's like it's a stimulant, but in a safe and healthy way. And eventually they succeeded, you know, and they built a really great brand out of it, but it took a long time.

30:13Similarly, you've got to show people how this is played and how it's fun. And so to me, it seems like one of your approaches really has to be video. It has to be people playing this game and ways that people are interacting and connecting. Totally. Yeah. One of the things that we really have going for us is on TikTok and Instagram, and I think even the ESPN TikTok, they post videos sometimes of people playing the game in the traditional format. So it's really popular online and in social media, but there's not really a product like ours on the market anywhere, and definitely not in the United States.

30:51Yeah, what makes yours different? Because I'm looking at Amazon, you can buy a Karim board on Amazon, but how is yours going to be different? Ours is a little bit more simple in terms of the design aesthetic. Like it's a balance between keeping the roots of the game and the cultural significance of the game itself and trying to design it in a way that feels more appealing, like something you can leave out on a coffee table and not feel like you need to put it away. The really nice boards are like that, but again, they cost so much money. So we're really trying to bring that barrier of entry down.

31:26You know, you mentioned this was a family game traditionally, but do you feel like this is a game that people will play mostly in their homes or also out at bars or with groups of friends in different settings? I'm curious where you want to start, because I think that'll help hone in on the strategy of how you might market it, because you have a lot of opportunity. Definitely. I think because the game is so visually impactful, like you see the game, you see people playing it. And I think because the rules are so similar to like pool, you kind of understand it when you watch it. So for us, we're thinking more along the lines of like a coffee shop, a cafe, somewhere where you can really see other people playing it or even at a park.

32:06I could see this in like New York at, you know, people like playing chess outside, people maybe playing Karam outside. So it's definitely a game that in my mind I envision being more portable and on the go. But living here in the Pacific Northwest, one of the best parts about the game is you can play it indoors. You know, it seems like a natural like first entry point, right, would be with like second, third generation South Asian communities in the United States, right? That would be an obvious play because those kids or the grandkids of immigrants would have might have been exposed to the game.

32:40But the other thing you mentioned, the drinking game aspect of it seems to me like there's there is a lot there's some potential there. Like you can imagine like a bar, right, a bar that has games or tabletops where there's some kind of integrated thing that you do. Right, right. I think one of the things that we're also thinking about and we love the idea of, you know, drinking ourselves. But I think in terms of our brand, like how do we I don't want to become like a trend. I see so many of these games that come and trend and go and trend and go. And it's so hard, I think, to navigate when you're trying to sell a product that's more of an experience that can last a long time.

33:20But I don't want to turn it into like a commodity that only happens in certain events. And it's hard to find a balance. And that's really what I've been struggling with mentally. It seems like if you got to the point where this was well known enough to be a commodity, that would be a great problem to address then. You know, for now, you have both the challenge of something that's relatively unknown, you know, and the opportunity that it's relatively unknown and you can be the one to make it known. Right. And again, I think it's you're going to have to focus in a few different places and see what sticks and see who's posting about it.

33:56If you can get people posting videos of themselves playing this and people are like, what is this game? How do I get it? And you're the first resource when they go to look it up. That's where I think you start to get traction and worrying about becoming a fad. I think there would be something great about getting that type of exposure if you're smart about how to capitalize on it. And if you have if your intentions are right once you get to that point. I would also suggest you listen to our episode about Spikeball if you haven't heard it that we did on the show a couple months ago or maybe a year ago because it took them a while, but then it took off.

34:30And it started with smaller groups of people that they didn't anticipate. They thought it was like a beach volleyball kind of crowd that would go for it. And they were going to beach volleyball tournaments and they were trying to really penetrate those communities. They ended up having a lot of success initially with church youth groups. Just they had no idea. Like church youth groups started to buy and Amish communities randomly were just buying Spikeball because it turns out that it's a game that was safe to be played. It was like a safe co-ed game. And it turns out they really built the brand, you know, on these communities, these sort of niche communities, and then eventually became a mass marketed product.

35:09And that's the thing to me. Like it seems like there's an opportunity to find a group. And it may be that you would start with second, third generation South Asian kids or young people, but you might also find that it could be like church youth groups. Like there are organized church youth groups in the United States. And really it seems like this is the kind of product that you've got to go to a trade show. You've got to go to trade shows and talk about what you're doing. But you could also think about non-traditional trade shows like that may not be about games at all, but that might be about travel and leisure or something totally unrelated.

35:47But where you can start to think about ways and places where you could put these boards. You also want to think about places where you can just give them away for free, right? Where you can have them in a hotel lobby, for example, like a cool hotel lobby. Like I think about like something like that. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm just so excited to share the game. It's such a big part of our lives. Well, you guys will be the first dude to get the final product. We'll love to see the videos. I love it. Randy, we're going to drink you under the carom table. Bring it, guy. I'm ready. All right. All right.

36:22Sean Patel, the company is called Play Carom. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. Keep us posted. Will do. Yeah. Interesting. I'm trying to figure out. You like every time you flick one in, like the other guy's got to take a shot or something. I don't want to encourage like binge drinking. But you can imagine. Absolutely. There is a considerable contingent of humans who would be like, yeah, all right, let's do it. Yeah. You're on. I think you're right. Their initial marketing investment is going to have to be giving away products in the right places. And some of them won't be right.

36:54But getting boards and places where people will play it and having somebody who's excited about it, posting about it, eventually the word gets out if something is great and it'll find the audience. But, you know, I like the idea. You mentioned Amish groups and spike ball. That's so interesting. You have to be willing to be surprised and you have to be willing to test and learn. Yeah, for sure. All right, Randy, we're going to take another quick break. But when we come back, a hip boutique that is trying to figure out how to translate its brick and mortar vibes into digital sales. Stay with us.

37:29I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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39:22Hello and welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. I'm with Randy Goldberg, co-founder of Bombas, and we're answering your business questions. Randy, I believe we have our next caller on the line. Hello, caller. Hi. Hello. Welcome. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Right. So my name is Ana Ben Chavenga. I own Urbana Boutique in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And the main mission of my business is helping people feel their best in the current iteration of their body. And I provide this through the conduit of affordable quality apparel, jewelry, and little tchotchkes.

39:58Cool. All right. Urbana Boutique is the name of it, right? And what question have you brought for us? So I come from the space of brick and mortar. And so my big thing is I'm trying to figure out, I've built up such a beautiful community and rapport with the women that I directly serve. But how do I then build that same community, rapport and appreciation in the digital space? Because the internet is so vast and I'm trying to find my specific people in the vastness of the internet and really serve and help them. So tell me a little bit about the boutique. You have a store. Yes. And you're trying to sell more direct-to-consumer through the internet.

40:38Is that right? Correct. Okay. And your boutique is in Pittsburgh. Not in Pittsburgh. It's in Oakmont, near Pittsburgh. Yes. Yeah. It's a suburb of Pittsburgh. And tell me who your clients are. I'm looking at your website now. Who are your customers? So my client, I would say, is 35 to 65-year-old women in creative fields. Women who often put themselves last. a lot of stay-at-home moms, a lot of postpartum women, a lot of women in the workforce. And I don't know about you, but my mother couldn't spend$5 on herself without feeling guilty. And so I want to be able to provide the service of cool quality pieces, but at a really affordable price point that women don't feel guilty and don't attach that guilt and are able to treat themselves well so that they can then move through the world with that same kindness.

41:22I'm looking at through your website and a lot of different things, definitely things that are Different from Rivki's Impact Fashion. Yes. Some immodest clothing. But tell me about where you source your, like, how do you pick what you sell? Right. So I worked at a European boutique for a decade. I was a buyer and a salesperson. And so I try to bring that same aesthetic, but at a super affordable price point. So I do source from the different trade shows in the area, as well as different marketplace platforms online. And the key is, I mean, you're obviously sourcing, you know, cool looking things.

41:59Yes. Can I say fashion forward or is that like a tired? No, you can say that. Okay. But at an affordable price, like really affordable, like a sweater is$40 or a basic long sleeve is$30, a satin kimono is$69. I mean, so you're basically going for affordability too. Correct. Cool. And when did you start this business? So I started the business in August of 2019. I was splitting a space with a coffee shop. I started in 400 square feet with three clothing racks and literally a room divider screen for people to try pieces on at the store. And then after the first holiday, I was like, this is working.

42:40I got to go because a storefront had opened two doors down. And the storefront opened and I signed the lease March 1st, 2020. Wow. It was really fun. How did you get through that? So, you know, COVID was horrible, but I firmly believe in finding the silver linings in things. And one of those silver linings was starting to delve into the digital space, which I had avoided for years and years and years because it's such a huge undertaking. And it's something that I just wasn't versed in. So it really forced me to kind of start working on that. So I was just grinding. I would be at the store. I would take deliveries to people's houses.

43:23Fortunately, the community, even though they weren't going anywhere, were still buying pieces on the site. So I just really hustled and grinded till the cows came home. And so what, 90, 95 % of your sales are coming from in-store purchases right now? Yes. But you've got a website up that you want this out in the world, right? And so you're trying to figure out how to bring more traffic and more revenue through the website. Right, because on a beautiful day, people come walking in, people are walking around, I'm able to make sales, but I want the consistency that comes with the e-commerce space and the consistency of having that steady flow of income when it's raining and three degrees and gray in Pittsburgh.

44:07Randy, what do you make of this? I mean, here you are, you've got this brick and mortar store, clearly a cool boutique. And you're now, she's now trying to get this out into the world. But of course, there's a lot of noise out there. A lot. You know, it's not the same when you guys launched Bombas in 2013. You know, you could get some influencers and you could really grind into Instagram and Instagram was new. So where do you start? So much noise, so hard to break in in the way that a lot of businesses did 10 years ago, and a lot of confusion even amongst big brands on where to go in terms of marketing.

44:43But I guess I would back up and ask a couple questions if that's all right, Ana. Sure. In terms of the clothes, are you making the clothes yourself? Are you buying from other brands? No, it's all different brands that I buy from. And is it clear what those brands are on your website? See, that's the other problem is that because there are so many boutiques opening in both physical brick and mortar and in the digital space, I think the big differential factor is the fact that I actually go to the trade show. I feel everything. It is quality, even though it is really reasonably priced. And so online, it's difficult to really provide that kind of statement and to help that people understand, hey, this is not just a$30 sweater you can get on Amazon.

45:28This is actual quality at$30. And is that$30 sweater, does it have a brand name in it when you get it? Yes. But that's not clear on your site what that brand is. No, I try to keep it that way just because people can source things. Other people are able to source things from the same places. Yeah, it seems like the advantage here, Randy, I think, is Anna's curation. And so I feel like you need to be more front and center. Like, we need to know that that's happening. And we need to see you. I know you're on the website, but you've got to go to the About page. But I kind of want to see you somehow, either you or your message up front at the beginning, right?

46:08I kind of feel like if you're out there, I'm looking at you and I'm thinking, well, she's got a great outfit on. She knows what she's talking about. I'm going to trust her. Right. It seems like you've also built some community in Oakmont. Was that fair to say? Yes. You have customers that come in regularly and they come in to say hi and see what's in the store. And they're kind of they don't know if something new is in, but they just stop in. They're just shopping. Is that right? Right. And a lot of it is very personal. You're at the store, I'm guessing. Every day of my life. Every day of your life.

46:39Except today's my mother's there for the couple hours. Yeah. Okay, that's great. So you're winning, like Guy said, and I think this is very astute, on physical curation in a world that doesn't have much of that anymore. Right? You're going to trade shows. You're touching and feeling things. You're making choices. And you have a point of view. And that's super valuable in today's world. People want things that cut through. Right? They want a point of view. But I feel like your website is not 100 % a reflection of that. Like I said, I want to know that perspective, that personality, that point of view in every page of your site.

47:18I want that to be so clear on the homepage. I want to see this story about us. I want you to talk about how you're finding things. on the product detail pages. I want to know not just this is a chic top. I want to know why you picked it, what it feels like, and what it's going to be like for me. Oh, that's a great idea. I think about like the Jay Peterman catalog a little bit. Remember that? Totally. People think that's from Seinfeld, but that was a real thing. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. And it's a real thing. Actually, it's a long story. But anyway, I just picked one thing randomly, the gold sparkle romper.

47:52How cool would it be if you could say, you know, there could be a funny little story about maybe how you saw this or how you found it, or I discovered this piece. And I feel like there is an opportunity to tell a story about every single item that you sell. It's not easy to do, but you can do it. And it's something you can actually control. Right. Yeah. I mean, the whole, I would say the bigger part of the mission is the people in the clothing. So I feel like that would be a good starting point to just have stories of women that have bought it or the woman that I saw wearing it. Because ultimately, I believe if you put people first in whatever you're doing, you're going to be more successful.

48:36Understanding not just the clothing, but the people behind the clothing, I think is the bigger thing for me. I also think that the reason that your shop exists and the reason that you're doing this, you have a lot of passion behind this and And it's super clear talking to us. It's not super clear on your site. And I know that has got to be job one. That is an easy thing to control, right? You don't have to pay a marketing agency to get in there and fix your site. There's some tactical things. You know, there's an ingredient section on your product detail page. I feel like it was a template that just isn't filled in.

49:12And there's lots of dropdowns that don't have answers. I'm missing the reason that you exist as a brand and as a shop. And I want to see the great vibes that I'm sure at your shop come to life on the website. And if you can translate that story and not just tell people what it is, but show them what it is, that's where you need to start before you spend a dollar on digital marketing. Right. Because it's so expensive and you can just lose so much money so incredibly quickly. That's why I haven't even thought about doing anything like that, because I know my website needs some love, needs some work.

49:48Your website, it's a reflection of who you are as a brand and as a store. Yeah. So until you feel like you can write those things down and get into the mode where you can communicate all the wonderful things that you're saying through that tool, through that place, then you can't really go anywhere else. Start with one thing like that, then move on to your organic social channels. And the stories that Guy's talking about, about your customers, about people who come into the shop, about you, start talking to people. Think of it as your personal blog. Put yourself out there and start explaining why this is great.

50:24And I think you'll soon come to realize that instead of on your site saying affordable, unique, chic, that sounds like marketing that sounds like anywhere. Right. Right. It could be Zara or Shein. And that's certainly not what you're trying to do. Right. Right. Find the version of what makes you unique, the why of your business, the heart of who you are, and start to just put that out there. That's where you have to start. Yeah. Do you still believe in email marketing, Randy? Is that still the number one? Because I mean, social media is kind of where I thrive. I really enjoy that part of it. And I really enjoy giving the behind the scenes.

51:01But everyone I've spoken with in the industry that I look up to has said that email marketing is still number one. Email marketing is a huge part of our business to this day. I mean, people still check emails. People have been talking about email dying for 15 years, and it's still a hugely valuable channel. And I think it's got to be part of the mix. It's not the only thing, but it's a big part of what you can do, especially in retention marketing, you know, when you're trying to talk to your customers and your file and keep them updated. All of this comes back to the idea that you have a unique point of view.

51:35People want to see what that is. Why is it different than other things? Who are you talking to? How are you finding them? These are all just tools. But getting that story down, that's the first step. Agreed. Especially when it's something that is value-add for somebody, right? Like they're learning something when they open that email. And that's the key, I think. Yeah, I think that's the biggest problem for me as like a moral issue. I think that I don't want to feel icky about doing the online sales portion of it. I still want it to very much be about the mission of helping women feel good in their body.

52:09But how do I accomplish both at the same time without, you know, I'm not trying to be too altruistic. I do have to make money. It is a business. But like, how do I how do I add both by adding a story to an email as opposed to just you want to not feel icky about the online marketing? Get your story right. You feel good about your story. All marketing is trying to connect your story to potential customers. And grinding it out person by person every day, connecting those dots, having people understand what you're doing, that's marketing. It's not trickery. It's getting people to pay attention to what you're doing.

52:45So start there. You're doing great. Yep. Great. Ana Benchavanga, Urbana Boutique in Oakmont, Pennsylvania. Thank you so much for calling in. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Great having you on. All right. I'm working through this, Randy. I'm working through my prudishness on the show. Like this is a critique that I get sometimes where people are like, you're too prude. Because I don't, you know, I normally don't say bad words and like, but I'm getting there and I'm looking at this stuff. I'm like, some of it, I, you know, look what she is putting, not in most of her, the things she's selling are skirts and dresses and sort of tunics and things like that.

53:25Satin kimonos. But she does have some things that, you know, are, I guess you wouldn't really want to scroll at work maybe for some of those things. Maybe. But that's an opportunity. I mean, she's got an opportunity to tell funny stories about some of these things, which could be really cool. Absolutely. She has a mission and a point of view. And the fact that that's not clear in her digital world is the first opportunity. And then she can start to think about the other. People get distracted by everything everyone tells them, this type of marketing and that type of marketing and influencers. And it's as expensive.

53:59Get your story straight. You know, what are you about? She has it down in the store. She has a community she's built. Translating that, that's where she's got to go first. Do you get like, are you getting like either nostalgia or PTSD listening to all these early stage founders? Like, does it take you back to your anxieties in 2013? Are those different things, nostalgia and PTSD? I'm hearing, I feel some of the similarities. And I also think these people are super smart. They have interesting ideas. There's a few things that connect the dots. And you know, when we were just starting, we had people who gave us advice and were really helpful along the way.

54:38And those advisors and, you know, having access to someone like you guy or a founder who had been there, even if it was a different category, invaluable as you're building a business because you're so close to it. And you just sometimes need someone to be like, eh, you know, actually that. Randy Goldberg, co-founder of Bombas and my friend, thank you so much for coming back on the show. Thank you so much for coming on the advice line. Thank you so much, Guy. Loved it. And by the way, if you guys have not heard Randy Goldberg's episode, the episode, The Story of Bombas with his co-founder, David Heath, please check it out it's such a cool story we will put a link to it in the show notes and also thank you for listening to the show this week if you are working on a business you've got a problem an idea you need some help you need some psychotherapy whatever it is send us a one minute message tell us about your business tell us about the issues or the questions that you'd like help with and please make sure to tell us how to reach you you can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or you can call and leave a message at 1-800-433-1298.

55:46And don't forget to sign up for my newsletter at GuyRoz.com. It's free and full of great insights from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. And we'll put all of that in the show notes as well. This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Ramtin Arablui. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

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