Advice Line with Scott Tannen of Boll & Branch and Jamie Siminoff of Ring

24:27and my two co-founders made me an offer that I couldn't turn down. So we're bootstrapping, we're funded internally, and we're trying to get into several markets at the same time. And you guys are selling through your website? Both the website and we most recently have launched on Amazon for the retail aspect, which leads me to my question to you. We're also offering wholesale and co-branded options for pickleball tournaments, for half marathons, surfing companies, paddleboarding, tennis, is it wise to try to scale both the retail arm and the wholesale co-branded arm at the same time? Or would you recommend focusing on one of them and maybe why?

25:12Interesting. Okay. Co-branded or wholesale retail. Let's bring these guys in. Scott Tannen, any thoughts or questions first for Eric? Yeah. I mean, my first question is, how are your margins? Yeah. So yeah, we're currently manufactured out of Brazil. So recent tariffs, we're looking into some other manufacturing options. They're pretty tight and even more so on the co-branded manufacturing side. Yeah. Cause I think margins are going to be really important here. And, and, and I say that because education is critical. You've got to educate the customer on why, I mean, I go outside and clothing all the time and I don't expect them getting sunburned.

25:55Right. So you're going to have education eats margins, right? That is like as clear as day education eats Martians. And when you're the first one to do it, you've got to bear the cost of that in terms of building a brand. And so I just think like protect those margins and then get after trying to unlock with the customer, the fact that the best way for me to protect against the sun is this apparel when I'm when I'm active in those sorts of things. It's not easy to do really, really hard to do. But I think that's the challenge in front of you. So we could get some more endorsements, like I said before, from, you know, dermatologists and Mohs surgeon.

26:33And to answer your question, a cotton shirt or a TJ Maxx, like a polyamide or a dual blend has a default UPF factor of like 18 to 22. And so ours is certified UV50. So it's over double. I don't currently have that on the website or on the Amazon storefront, but I can hear you with the education component. Maybe that's something that we need to add. The problem you're looking at, and I've seen a lot of companies do this sort of, it's like a vicious cycle, is if you could sit down with every customer and explain it like this to me, I would buy your product. The problem is the cost to do that is so high.

27:10And so there's a million great products that have gone bankrupt and gone out of business and not made it because it's too hard to explain. Like Scott made sheets that were a little better. And I'm not diminishing it, but like, but like it was like organic cotton sheets. It was like, you know, so it was, so I knew what sheets were. I know what they did. I knew how to use them. I knew everything about it. Like Ring, we did a Wi-Fi video camera in a doorbell. Everyone understood what a doorbell was, where it was supposed to be, what it did, how it worked. I just made it on your phone with a video camera.

27:42So the pre-awareness of the doorbell gave me billions of dollars of marketing and a hundred years of knowledge. And so for you, I'm sitting here thinking about it. It's like, I didn't realize there was this problem. I didn't even realize like, I would just put on a shirt. I don't know. And I was thinking about like the pre-awareness and I'm like, you know what, how I'd be selling this? I'd be making sunscreen bottles with the shirt inside of it and selling it where sunscreen is oh I love that like pack it into the sunscreen bottle and sell it in the sunscreen aisle I'd be selling the whole thing 50 SPF whatever in the sunscreen aisle in the bottle and just I'd go right in there I'd be that's what I'd do because you want that pre-awareness because if it's in the sunscreen aisle I'd be like I understand what this shirt does now because I'm in the sunscreen aisle he just figured it out for you how do you drop one of these mics drop it baby Because he's competing with sunscreen and sunblock, essentially.

28:34Yes, it's not clothing. It's not clothing. I like it. We're not really competing against other fabrics or other wearables. We're actually competing against sunscreen, so that's brilliant. But the other factor and a way to differentiate ourself in a very competitive athleisure wear with UPF factor is most companies spray on the UV protection after production with a chemical. And ours is actually in the tightness or how open the weave is. It's woven into it. Eric, you're going like, it's like I put you on, it's like I put the little train on the track and you just blew it right off again. There you go.

29:12You have to explain all of that. You have to tell us that. And you might be right. It's not that you're wrong. It's just like you're in the weeds again. I'm replacing sunscreen. By the way, people know that sunscreen now is toxic. Like that's, I'd say - Don't want to say that because we've had some sunscreen brands on the advice line. Not all of them are toxic. So as a consumer, as a consumer, I believe that sunscreen is not good for you. Fair enough. That's my belief now. That's your belief. That's what I've been told. That's what I've been told. That's what you believe. That's what I believe.

29:40Okay. And when I talk to people, they sort of have that belief, but we also don't know how to not to put sunscreen on because I also know that burning my skin off is bad as well. Yeah. And so I do think it's like positioning yourself directly mechanical sunscreen in the bottle. I see it on the thing, know exactly what to do with it. Pre-awareness, boom. And yes, sunscreen is great. It just turns out that I think it's not. I don't know. I love it. I think what that sets you up to do also is it lets you think about products in a really different way. Like how do I create real devices that protect from the sun that are made from this material that you have?

30:12I mean, I get it. Trust me. Like our products, even though Jamie he thinks we only make one thing, one small thing different. He's actually dead right. If, you know, Missy can go deep with him on how she made a downproof fabric without chemicals. But at the end of the day, it's like, I don't know, is the down comforter comfortable? You know, and so people just want sun protection from you. Give it to them. Yes. And it's convenient. Your opportunity, I think, is clear here. It's not competing with the at-leisure wear market necessarily. It's going after the people using sunblock and sunscreen. That's brilliant.

30:48I appreciate it, guys. And I think to your question around what channels should you think about, you now have an enemy, right? Your enemy is sunscreen. Go chase them in every channel that they play. Oh my God, all my sunscreen founders are going to kill me. And you know what retail loves? Retail loves something new in an aisle that brings in more money to that aisle. They love change. They love this. So if you go to them and say, in your sunscreen aisle, I want to do this, they will love this. It's higher margin, higher per square foot sales. It's like, this is catnip. Yeah, CVS, Walgreens, like surf shops.

31:21Yeah. All right, awesome. Eric Alexson, co-founder of L Cubed Lifestyle. Good luck, man. Thanks for calling in. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Good luck. Man, how much do you guys charge an hour? Jamie, what's your hourly consulting? Jamie's brilliant. Yeah, I charge like a steak dinner. So like I expect Eric when he's like a billionaire from this to at least take me out for like a steak dinner. Wagyu? I still owe you one. A5, Miyazaki? Yeah, you know, I'm actually more just like a regular. Regular USDA choice? Steak and fries, you know. Nice. Yeah, I don't need the, I mean, I'll take a Wagyu. I don't remember what.

31:51I owe Jamie a steak dinner for something, and then I got vertigo that day. And I'm like in bed, and he's like, you're so full of it. I'm like, no, dude, I can't get up. Would you do a steak and eggs at Denny's? Does that count? That's fine. Or IHOPs? That's impressive. I'm a Denny's guy. I'm a Denny's. All right, cool. I've never been to a Denny's. They're great. They're great. I mean, I eat horrible things, so I think I would like it. Denny's is right up your alley, Scott. You'll love it, Denny's. It's so perfect. You should be going to Denny's. After the break, another caller with another business challenge.

32:22I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your business questions right here on the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

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33:48Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. And my guests today are Bull and Branch co-founder Scott Tannen and Ring founder Jamie Siminoff. Scott, Jamie, you guys ready for another call? Let's go. Let's do it. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Scott and Jamie. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Hey, guy. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Scott. My name is Chris McElroy. I'm the CEO and founder of Knox Provisions, and I'm calling from Alpine Meadows, California. Knox is short for Binox, which is short for binoculars. And we make award-winning, beautifully designed binoculars, monoculars, and scopes with a modern brand that celebrates accessibility, inclusivity, and presence in the outdoors.

34:30All right. Awesome. Chris, thanks for calling in. Describe, so these are binoculars and monoculars. Monoculars? Is that right? And tell me what makes them, I mean, what makes them different or stand out or unique? You know, when we got the company going, the idea of having binoculars at a football game, a music festival, going out to the beach was really appealing. And when I looked at the market, the industrial design was really just dominated by kind of a homogenous black or green binocular, brands that were kind of saying the same thing. And ultimately what we did is we built high-quality compact binoculars that are well-designed, colorful, and wrapped up in a brand that really celebrates getting people in the outdoors.

35:12Yeah, I have a pair of binoculars, and they're really clunky. You put them around your neck, and it feels the same way it felt like when I was a kid in the 80s. It hasn't changed much. Obviously, there are different kinds. So these are just – they're sleeker, right? I mean, I guess it's got a grippy outer coating too? Yeah, that's right. And we got started by basically making a compact, waterproof binocular, high quality, 100 bucks. That was the initial thesis. How long have you been doing this? We've been doing this for six years now. Got it. And what were you doing before? Before that, after school, I had co-founded a Bluetooth speaker business in 2010, when Bluetooth was still new.

35:52And when the market was just all black little capsule speakers, we made a colorful speaker collection. built a really cool brand around it and ultimately raised VC money and really aimed for the moon and hit the atmosphere and blew up. He blew up, meaning the company went bankrupt? Yeah, it was sold for parts, but it was a great run. It was kind of like getting an MBA, learned a ton, went to China probably 20 times. And after that went belly up, I built a 3D printer and was kind of set on building the next thing. And a buddy came back from the Outside Lands Music Festival and said, man, if only we had some stylish, cool binoculars, those would be great.

36:32And so I took a look at the market and really, as a product person, was confused. You spend 500 bucks, 700, 50, like, what are these brands? It seemed like a great opportunity and kind of ran the similar playbook back. So brought color, brought an active brand to that space. Awesome. So you've been doing this for six years now. And did you also raise outside capital like you did with your last business or did you take a different route? We took a different route. It was a great learning experience, great mentorship. It was a good run. But again, that type of return on a lifestyle brand I don't think fits the VC sort of paradigm.

37:14And so with Knox, it's been bootstrapped this whole time. Nice. And give us a sense of, and these are mainly sold online or in shops? Where are they sold? We sell in core outdoor retailers across the United States. We sell in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Europe. We're in REI nationwide, as well as Dick's Sporting Goods nationwide. And then, of course, we have our own Amazon and direct-to-consumer channel. And what are you guys doing in sales right now? Last year, we crested$10 million. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, and this year we've hit that again in some pretty intense headwinds in the outdoor industry and given tariffs.

37:51So we've got a great team. Congrats. And what's your question for us? We've seen this growth initially in the core outdoor channels. It's been great. But we know our optics have utility beyond this. How do we drive awareness that people should use binoculars outside of traditional outdoor channels, such as birding or hunting? Yeah, Jamie Siminoff, sounds like you in the early days, building stuff, trying tinkering, trying to come up with a new invention. that not working, but actually having a failure is a hugely advantageous experience. So by the way, kudos to you also, Chris, for coming right back to it after that, you know, that first thing didn't work out.

38:28So. Yeah. It's always good to see someone recover like that. I mean, people, it's always easy afterwards to like say how easy, I built another business, but like going through that trough is, it's really tough. So, so yeah, kudos for being able to get through it and build an incredibly successful business so far. Thank you. Yeah. So what, so what do you think here? I mean, how do you, how would you start either of you guys in, in, in sort of tackling the question or any questions that you might have for Chris? I mean, for me, I'm looking at it saying, okay, if you want to expand in different things, how do you attach this to the phone?

39:00I'm thinking about like TikTok, Instagram, and like, is there a, is there a way to integrate something into like a case or some, you know, something with the phones, you're getting more of that digital and then using that as a way to sort of efficiently get this out there. Because obviously any like top of the funnel advertising is going to be very expensive. Yeah. I think it's really interesting. Like a lot of brands have this challenge of developing their own positioning. You have to actually deposition the rest of the category. And I don't even know if I just made up that word. I probably did.

39:30Jamie will kind of point that out later. But I think that like if you think about what you are, right, You are the same thing that exists in the category, but you're also completely not, at least in terms of what you look like and how you show up and all of those things. So I think your instincts are right to figure out how do I make this some sort of lifestyle accessory that exists in a world where you wouldn't want to bring like, you know, the guy that shows up at a football game when it's cold and he's wearing his fluorescent orange hunting gear. Like you don't want to be that guy in the stadium with your camouflage binoculars.

40:03You want to have knocks. and and so how do we deliver on that how do we and and i think jamie's right like figuring out the right way to integrate with social media so that that it starts being like the places you show up it makes sense that nox is the brand that you're going to have if that's your lifestyle like i'm an indoor cat but i occasionally go outside to like sporting events and stuff um i don't farm and do stuff like jamie does and so my needs are for less camo and more bright colors like I saw it and I'm like I'm in cool yeah and Scott I know you're a big football fan or or were and my experience with binoculars growing up was going to 49er games that was it it was an easy first step or not easy but an obvious first step to pursue the outdoor channel and we're at a point now where it's like do we go all in and go into music festivals do we pursue like an NFL license I just but I do think I just would look at like as you keep talking and as Scott was talking it's like, but people don't go to these things anymore.

41:01Most of them, and by this is very sad, I think, but they go to capture the photo, not to see it themselves. Binoculars are for you. And so I think it is trying to figure out how to get the binocular to show that. And by the way, ring, you know, we watermarked every video. So when you see a ring, you know, something happens and it's on the news, it says ring on the side. Like, can you figure out how to like somehow get towards that? Because The reality is what I really want to do when I'm at the football game is take a picture to show my friends that I was there. That's where the knocks. Can you get that, I guess?

41:34Because kids, everywhere I go now, all they do is these selfies. Again, I don't love it personally, but I think from a business side, you have to lean into it. I think that's really, really interesting. I'm going to take a slightly different take. I think Jamie's probably right. If you want to make money, follow Jamie's advice. If you don't want to make money, follow the advice I'm about to give you, which is I actually think your biggest competition is distraction. Right. And I'm really interested in this whole movement of people who are interested in analog experiences, putting their phones.

42:08I've got this thing called a brick. It's on my fridge. I scan my phone and it locks it up. And I got to go back physically to that thing and it unlocks. It's very analog, but it's great. I think that maybe you might want to think about creating some kind of campaign around like a daily ritual, like put away the phone, no phone, you know, take a walk, go outside, look up. I just think that there's an opportunity to lean into this kind of screen free, like sort of decompress kind of thing that's happening because a lot of people are interested in it. Their brains are overloaded with junk that they're getting from their devices.

42:47And I wonder whether you might want to kind of lean into that. Yeah, that's a great point. Binoculars, monoculars, they're a little portal into presence. Yeah, I mean, you could build a whole campaign around just the idea of like, notice the world again. Like, look, I'm not saying that's going to be the panacea, but it's a you can if you think about it that way, it's an opportunity to to sort of expand how people use the device to use the binoculars. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Don't follow my advice. If you want to make money, turn into a social media thing and let people post. I just think after selling to the 10 people Guy's talking about, then you got to go to my market.

43:27Exactly. That's all I'm saying. But yes, he's totally right. There are 10 people out there that want to do this. And it's super, we should supply them binoculars. You want to make an app on the iPhone that you can connect with a binocular and there you go. Scott, any thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I was going to say something maybe friendlier than Jamie put it, but I tend to agree with it. I think that there's, I don't know, there is something like I have college age girls. And what I'm noticing when I go visit them at school and tailgates, people have regular digital cameras now. And I'm like, what the hell?

44:00I have the iPhone 17 Pro. Isn't that better? But there's something about detaching from the phone that maybe is existing. And I think, I don't know why people carry these digital cameras. I've never gotten a clear answer on that. However, if you can figure out why and attach this to sort of that idea, then, you know, maybe there's 20 people, Guy, that would - I like that Scott took like the Guy and Jamie and like mashed it together to make like a good sort of outcome from both. Yeah, I'm a peacekeeper. Yeah, but I mean, it's, you know, even if you go to your website here, Chris, I mean, it's good, but you're definitely, clearly it looks like, you know, it's for stargazing or for camping adventure.

44:43It's adventure. You know, it's sort of like, it's like the person who drives a Rivian, right. Is going to want these in their car, which is great. I mean, there's a lot of people like that. And I would definitely keep doing that. You want to lean into that. But for example, like I think about something like skiing, nobody has a, you, these could just slip into your ski, be a pocket of your ski pants. And you know, while you're skiing, like maybe you'd want to look at the chair list from a distance. I don't know. Maybe there are other use cases, but I think that just make it into a ritual or routine or just something that's always around.

45:15Can't we just see Guy and Aspen on the ski lift? Yeah, with the monocular. Monocular. Capture those moments. That's all. And then I'll post it to my TikTok. Perfect. Yeah. It's an awesome product. Well, congrats on all your success, Chris. Good luck. The brand is called Knox Provisions. Thanks for calling in, man. yeah thank you and uh i appreciate it thank you thanks um yeah i mean i i every time i have binoculars i'm like god i don't want to have these around more like they're really useful that's why i like the phone case thing because then it's like it's it sort of like puts it with the system that you have yeah like you would have a phone case like a binocular case yeah like like and maybe the thing just like clicks up to the camera but it also is like integrated so it's like one piece.

46:03Maybe people can embrace their inner creepy, you know? That's great. Don't be a creeper. I like that. I know. I was like, maybe there's a big market of creepy people that could buy this stuff. Revenue is revenue. Yeah, exactly. There we go. Guys, before I let you go, Jamie, I've asked you this question, so I'm not going to ask you again. But Scott, if you were to go back to the Scott of early days of Bull and Branch when you guys were starting it, and you could give yourself some advice that would have been helpful to have known then that you now know, all these years later? What would have been helpful for you to know?

46:34Keep it simple. Your approach to the problems you run into, the challenges, try to simple it down and slim it down to something really clear, really addressable, and knock it out and move on. None of our businesses, as complex as our businesses are, at their core, what makes them successful or not is not that complicated. It's about how well you're serving a customer, how well your customer loves the product, and those sorts of things. So I think the less you stray away from the simplicity of that, the better. Fair enough. All right. Scott Tannen, Jamie Siminoff, thanks so much for coming back on the show, guys.

47:09Thanks for having us, Scott. Thanks for having us. It's great. And by the way, if you haven't heard Scott and Jamie's original How I Built This episodes, please go back and check them out. We'll put a link to them in the show notes. And here's one of my favorite moments from my interview first with Scott. You took a line of credit against your house to spend$2 million on an ad campaign on Howard Stern. Yeah. I took the most amount of debt I've ever had on anything in my life. Wow. Just to advertise on Howard Stern. You're putting all your eggs in that basket. Yeah. Without a plan for what I was going to do if it worked.

47:41But I believe so strongly that somebody like Howard was going to put us on the map. I believed it was possible. Sounds kind of nuts. It does, actually, now that you say it. And here is one of my favorite moments from my interview with Jamie. We start here, and it's like the week before Christmas. People are contacting me and saying, it's not working. And their video was coming through like an old TV tuner. It was all lines through it, and you couldn't see the picture. So most of our units are now in the field with customers that not only do they not work, but we can't change that software on them.

48:17So they're basically bricks. You cannot fix the ones that people have? Yeah, you can't rewrite the software on this chip. And so this was like the end of the world. Like this really was. Basically, the business is over. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com. Each week, it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with.

48:59And hopefully we can help you with them and make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Ramtina Ablui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our production staff also includes Catherine Seifer, Ramel Wood, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This Lab. If you like How I Built This, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

49:48Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.