Advice Line with Tony Lamb of Kona Ice

25:50I don't know. It must have been something that captured your imagination in some way. Right. Exactly. I think as we become adults, and I'm only 26 years old, but I've already found this. we kind of lose our creativity and lose the ability to learn a new hobby. So that's kind of what I'm trying to bottle up in this kit. And what is the sort of like, you just started this. And so presumably, you know, trying to figure out how to get the word out so you can sell them. But what do you think the market size is with something like this? Yeah, so you might think it's pretty tiny. And what really kind of shaped my opinion is this learn to crochet company called the Woobles.

26:31I don't know their current numbers, but I think it's five plus million dollars revenue a year. And I was just in Walmart the other day and saw their kits there. Also, part of why I thought this could be a good idea is because I have friends who have done these learn-to-crochet kits. And they say, actually, it's still quite intimidating. But with needle felting, you literally start with fluffy sheep's wool. And you get a needle and you just start poking it. and you just keep poking and it just condenses down into the shape so it's really doesn't it doesn't take much instruction although we do provide you know detailed step-by-step instruction but it's it's approachable wow tony any thoughts uh i have tons of thoughts you took me zach you took me into a wormhole of needle felting and i and i have oh my gosh the cat faces that i i think I saw online and, and some of the, some of the different things is beautiful.

27:28And, and, um, but listen, I mean, obviously, you know, your, your, uh, hill that you're climbing, you, not only do you have to get market share, but you have to develop the market, uh, which is probably one of the most challenging things there is to do out there. Cause it's, it's so twofold. Um, ironically enough guy, I sat behind a lady on a cross country flight that was, uh, crocheting and she completely did this handbag. And I was like, that was amazing. I started talking to her a little bit as she, we were getting off the plane. And I was like, she goes, oh yeah, I just look for opportunities to spend three or four hours doing this.

28:05And I was like, I think it looks medicinal in a lot of ways and, and great. And, but you know, Zach is, is to, to start from that. Did you say it's really big in, in Taiwan? Is that what it is? Yeah. It's in Asia, it's, it's, it's big and it's, it's oddly enough big in England as well, but not really in the US. Do you see inside of Asian communities in the United States or Taiwanese communities in the United States, do you see it being popular or did it make the journey with that culture? I don't think so. No. Okay. Yeah. So like you said, it's definitely this double-sided problem. That's part of the reason why I was so interested in starting a business like this because it seems daunting.

28:52Yeah. Yeah. Might as well start with something near impossible. You're going to start a business, man. Let's just, let's just absolutely start. No, I mean, listen, this journey is long and it starts probably in craft shows. It starts very, I mean, if you go back and you listen to the advice lines, you know, and you listen to that um, cliff bar and how he's at bike shows and giving out and cutting cliff bars and pieces and handing out little pieces of cliff bar to get people excited. I mean, that's, that's almost the journey that you've got ahead of you is, is to be in those craft shows and to be in those communities, whether it's chat rooms, whether it's, um, Facebook communities or whatever, where you're trying to introduce this, this product.

29:35So you can kind of try to get some traction. But I think it's going to take that real strong, visceral, organic start. And listen, sometimes, Zach, and I'm going to say this with all due respect, sometimes not every hobby that we come up with is a career. And I mean, not everyone wants to, you know, Cortez it. And I always say that, you know, land of the new world and set their ships on fire and say, you know, Let's go after it. Right now, this business is not 100 % full-time for me. I'm still involved in finance and trading, but I'm putting in time in this and like to grow it to a point where it could be my full-time job.

30:19And my girlfriend, Emma, is helping me out with it as well, and she's working on it as well. And do you have the ability with your job, your day job, to like go to a trade show or like probably farmer's markets on the weekends, but trade show, is that a possibility? Probably not weekdays type thing. But on the weekend, yes. And that's something I'm excited to do because it is a very visual product. I mean, I can imagine seeing you like a table, like poking something and having like a little panda and a penguin and a little puppy and a cat and a pig and, you know, all these like animals lining these tables, you know, and then you're just sitting there, you and somebody else just poking, poking, poking, poking, poking.

31:05You're just making them, right? Because it's one of those things that people have to see because I wasn't even – I mean, it's not like crocheting. It literally – now that I understand it, it's like compacting the wool into a shape, right? Yeah. Yeah. And another question I have because I think that like in-person demonstration really makes sense. But another question is if – we're trying to really build a social media following. So would you say put a video of someone doing that exact process on social media? When you say put up the videos, you've got to also look for something that's fascinating in the videos and the connection.

31:51And so, I mean, I think if you watch the video of you poking the wool to time lapse it, to make it fast, to make it good and to bring in. Because people will give you the, you know, that's why TikTok is so good. They'll give you the 15 seconds. They'll give you the 25 seconds. So a real good time lapse video. And listen, that doesn't take a whole lot of expense to do that. And you just keep pumping those things out there and keep adding them to. Because I would say needle felting, you could probably grab that marketplace fairly quickly. Right. It's not a huge marketplace right now. Yeah. So, I mean, for me, honestly, that was shaved ice.

32:33And it wasn't like everyone was – it wasn't a ubiquitous term, brick-and-mortar stores, anything like that. So we were able to kind of own that space. Another thing I think I would do, Zach, is I would do a lot of peripherals and adjacents. So, you know, hook your videos up to crochet, even if you say the new type of crochet or the new type of macrame or the new this or the new that. And so you can grab those words, those good key words. And so you can get some relevancies in your search terms. And also, like, just try a bunch of different things. Like have them like just just a close up of the penguin and the panda just talking to each other.

33:11Like, you know, do the voices and just see how that works. That's great. I hadn't thought of that one. I think that would be good. You know, just just mess around because it doesn't sound like right now you've got the capital to spend on influencers. I mean, there are obviously tons of craft influencers. I mean, I think of brands like cricket, you know, and these huge craft brands. There are craft fairs all over the country, crafty bastards and all these different kinds of fairs where something like this could really be interesting to people. But I think as you're starting out on a small scale, you're just going to have to experiment with videos in your channels.

33:46And whether you do it to your own personal channels or you open another site or channel called Just Fuzz or do all three, that's really where you have to begin. And you just got to do a lot of them. Yeah, we're putting it. We have an Instagram and we are putting them out, doing a lot of them. But I really appreciate the advice. Yeah, it seems like, Zach, you're not in this massive hurry. You're not trying to change the world. You're going at this because this is a tough one. You're going at this in the right pace, but making the right moves. And I love, I just love the spirit, man. I love the fact that you saw something, you brought it back.

34:27You're making it. It's just really cool. I'm excited for you. Coming from you, the guy who, you know, launched Hawaiian ice in Kentucky, that just means so much. So thank you very much. Very, maybe one of the most challenging businesses of all time that we feature on the show. Zach Dietz, good luck. The business is called Just Fuzz. Keep us posted. Okay. Thank you, guys. All right. I'm not, now I'm, I'm thinking about this now. I'm thinking about the meditative quality of this stuff. I think this is really exciting because if you can learn how to do this and like, you know, my attention span – do you have a good attention span?

35:07Are you willing to sit down for hours to learn something at this point in your life? Probably not. No. If I'm being honest. I probably – I do like the medicinal. I do a lot of stretching and yoga and things like that. I do like that serenity in your life when your life gets a little chaotic. So I think there's something really cool here. But again, developing and introducing an entire concept is really, really challenging. All right, Tony, let's go ahead and take another quick break. But when we come back, is it possible to build a brand of Instagram-worthy products without paying big bucks to Instagram influencers?

35:47That's coming up in just a moment. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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38:19welcome back to the advice line on how i built this lab and today i'm joined by kona ice founder tony lamb and tony let's let's get to it let's bring in our last caller hello caller i believe it's jennifer jennifer are you in line yeah hi hi guy hi tony hello jennifer welcome welcome welcome Jennifer, tell us your first and last name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Sure. My name is Jennifer Braidwood. I'm the founder and owner of Braid & Wood Design Studio. We're based in San Diego, California, and we're a small product design firm that specializes in modern home decor products for people who want to bring more life into their home.

39:00So think like plant stands, plant hangers, plant shelves, vessels, all sorts of stuff like that. Nice. And you design them all? I do. I do. They're all my own designs. Cool. Tell us the question that you have for us today. Yeah. My question is, we do really well with paid ads on Facebook and we've got some great micro-influencer campaigns. But I'm curious, what other strategies could we use to grow our e-commerce sales and our brand awareness without having to spend like tens of thousands of dollars? I obviously am working off a grassroots budget. Is it even possible to compete in a space without having those big marketing dollars?

39:48Yeah. All right. We'll get to that in a moment. But tell us a little bit about the business. So how did you get into this world at all? Sure. So I spent the majority of my professional career in marketing, social media management, branding, web and graphic design, those types of things. But ever since I can remember, I've always loved making things. Definitely a designer at heart. Spent a lot of time doing other side hustles while I was working full time. I started like a pillow shop on Etsy. I did a custom artwork service. I did interior design projects. And about five years ago, my husband and I decided to make a huge lifestyle switch.

40:33We were both so stressed out at our jobs. We were miserable. And we were in our mid-30s. And we just decided to make a major lifestyle switch. We sold our home. We both quit our jobs. We moved into an apartment and I was kind of free to sort of figure out, okay, what do I want to do? What's my next step? And I've always been really entrepreneurial. So I was like, okay, I'm going to start my own thing, see what I can do. And so I originally thought Brayden Wood would be an interior design firm, but I was creating these DIY home decor planters. And they sort of started catching a little bit of traction on social media.

41:17And I had a couple of retailers reach out to me and say, we love this beautiful, modern plant hanger that you're making. Can we buy some of those from you? We want to sell them. And do you do wholesale? And I was like, yeah, sure. I do wholesale. Let's do wholesale. And so the business was sort of born. And over the last few years, we've obviously grown and we have overseas manufacturing partners now and third-party logistics fulfillment and all of that. And yeah, it's been a wild five years. So that's sort of the story. Wow. Wow. Your website is absolutely gorgeous. It looks incredible. It looks...

42:00Thank you. Thank you. Well, the designs are truly amazing. I forwarded this as soon as I saw it. I just forwarded it to my wife. So I know you've got another customer coming. There you go. Perfect. She seems to have no budget. So Jennifer, I'm excited for you. Thank you. Send me all the customers, please. And like some of these, I mean, you know, I love air plants because we've got a couple of them. They're super fun. And the way that you've designed these plants, it's like you can put them right on the wall. They mount to the wall like framed pictures, but they're obviously— Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, they're meant to look like home decor, like a beautiful decor accent.

42:41But then it just has that touch of life that you can add to it. It's really different. Where are your customers coming from now? You're direct-to-consumer. You don't have a storefront, right? Correct. We are all e-commerce based and the majority of our customers are finding us through social media. And then, of course, our paid ad strategy that does pretty well for us. So the question is, how do you increase awareness, right? How do you get the word out about this brand without having a huge budget? And the first thing I wonder, Tony, you might be able to speak to this, is are there ways to think about this beyond just through digital advertising?

43:22So, for example, is there a world where you partner, at least at the beginning, locally with like event spaces or, you know, party planners or even home stagers where they can use some of your products, you know, where they can borrow them, but you can clearly advertise where they come from? Have you ever done anything like that? You know, we partnered with a small home staging company a few years ago. And as people were coming to the open houses and looking at them, people could actually buy the products that were in the staged home. So it was a really cool, unique concept. But I don't think they ever really got it together enough.

44:10But I love the idea of like partnering with other businesses in San Diego to do brand giveaways or, you know, raise awareness in that way. What's the dream, Jennifer? I mean, you said you had some relationships with some larger companies. I'm assuming kind of the West Elms of the world. Yeah, we did have some success early on with some wholesale relationships with West Elm and Magnolia Market, Uncommon Goods. but we were very young and it was almost too soon. Okay. And our price point was a little bit too high. Okay. And so we had issues with sell-through and we really worked the last two years bringing those costs of goods down, finding the right manufacturers to make the product.

45:02But to answer your question as far as like, what's the big dream is really to be a brand where people who are looking for unique products to decorate and style their homes with that they think of Braydenwood as the brand. Like I want to bring life into my home, but I just don't want like the same boring plant stand that's on Amazon. So I think growing a large and well-known direct-to-consumer home goods brand is the goal. So the goal is not to partner back up with those companies for large distribution? I would consider that. I would definitely be open to that possibility again. We've learned so much in the last few years that I think we could do it.

45:52Yeah. I mean, if you're positioning yourself as, I mean, your designs are so unique and they look so good. I was surprised to hear you say that, the price point was a little high. I was actually thinking, I think you could sell it for more because it's just so unique. I mean, what do I know? I'm a 55-year-old driving an ice cream truck. I don't know much about. I like that you like it though. That's good. No, it's just, I mean, I don't see anything like it. So probably trying to establish yourself as the higher end of, you know, this kind of home decor and then maybe approaching back into the mass distributors.

46:34Because if the big goal is, I mean, obviously, I think easily the big goal is to be self-sustaining, you know, to have all the money that you ever wanted in your life and to rain money upon you. Bring it to me. Yeah. I mean, I know you said you don't have the massive budget, but I want to encourage you to take the big swings. I don't know what the, what the latest, who the latest person is. I'm going to say Kardashians, but it's probably going to date me or whatever, but who's the big person? It's, it's obviously the, the Magnolias, um, down there and, and Chip and Joanna Gaines. And, and I know that's, and I don't even know if that's it, but it's, it's about those big swings, sending those products, sending it in some different way, having it take a couple swings.

47:23It doesn't, you're going to strike out a bunch, but you're already, you're already there, man. You're already starting over. And so, so going for whatever that big win would be, I think you got to take some swings for that. I really do. I would add to that. I mean, there's something I noticed on your site, which is you have a blog, right? And your blog is super cool. The thing that I love about your blog is that it's basically content marketing, right? You're writing about things that are very value add, and it's free. It's like, here's how to take care of air plants. Here's how to style like a designer.

47:59And I feel like I haven't seen a whole lot of new blog posts. So it seems like they kind of tapered off last year. And I wonder whether you consider really ramping that up, even if you feel like you're repeating some of the old ideas, because over time, that's going to start to hit search engines. And you can use some of the blog posts for paid ads, like instead of just advertising the, you know, the plant hangers or the plant shelves. Yeah, you would you basically pay to promote the blog post, which then links back to what you're selling, because the cool thing about the blog posts is you're giving away information for free.

48:40I would really lean into that and try and lean into pushing some of those blog posts, even spending, you know, a couple hundred bucks on some targeted social media ads, but using the blog posts as a way to bring people under the door. Yeah, I think that's a great idea is like kind of piggybacking on what you said. A lot of people just don't know how to style, you know, their homes or I've got this blank wall in my bedroom I've been looking at forever. Like, what do I even put on it? And giving that content and that education in a blog post, I think, is really valuable. People are hungry for that type of information.

49:21And so, yeah, and we have taken a break a bit on the content writing because I didn't really know if it was serving us well. But to revisit that, I think, is really smart. And it's hard. I mean, we're doing a newsletter every week. It's a lot of work. Yeah, it is. And sometimes I ask myself, God, is this worth it? Are people reading it? By the way, if you are listening, please do sign up for our newsletter at GuyRoz.com. But it is critical over time. There's an aggregate effect. And the people who really appreciate it, even if it might just be 1 ,000 people or 500 people, those are your force multipliers.

49:55Those are the people who are really going to lean into what you're selling and tell other people about it. It will just come up in an off-hand way. Oh, I just saw this really cool blog post exactly about where to place your plants. What was that place called? Braid and Wood. Yeah, go check that out. That's great. Yeah, that's a really good idea. Business is called Braid and Wood Design Studio. And the founder is Jennifer Braidwood. Jennifer, congrats. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you so much, Guy. And I just wanted to say, too, I listen to the podcast every day. I'm in my warehouse working, and it is so inspiring to hear other founders, especially female founders, who are out there and doing it and taking the big swings.

50:36Like you said, Tony, it keeps me going every day. Awesome. So thanks for what you do. It's incredible. Thank you for saying that. Thank you so much. Good luck, Jennifer. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Nice meeting you both. Thank you. Thanks. Tony, you've touched on this point a couple times today in our chats with people, and it reminded me of – because you were like, a top vacuum cleaner salesman, like for many years in a row, and you were crushing it. And you were just, and you know, like most, most of us, you were motivated to make more money, because you wanted to have more money to have more freedom to do things.

51:09But the thing that you I just struck me today is this idea that you seem to be suggesting, which is, are you happy with where you are now? Are you making a good living that sustains your life? And if so, do you really want the trade-off for maybe marginally more income, but like exponentially more problems? And can you expand on that a little bit? Because I think that's a really important point that you raised. I'm just watching it happen a lot in life, not just in Kona, but I mean, I've got franchisees that come in, they get a truck, they do really well. They hate saying no, the bookings become more than what their equipment can handle.

51:50They buy more equipment. They get to this point where they have to, if they buy one more piece of equipment, then they're going to have to hire a manager. And then if you get a couple more after that, you're going to have to hire an event coordinator. And then before you know it, you've got 25, 30, 35 employees. And it's meetings. It's bureaucracy. I mean, not that it's a bad thing, but there's a lot of moving parts at that point. Yeah. And there's a law of diminishing returns to some degree. I mean, it's just, And not just with money, but also with happiness and joy. And so I really want to preach that because so many of my franchisees, and I mean, an overwhelming majority, I talk to every single one of them and they'll say something like, I'm just tired of the rat race.

52:32I'm tired of corporate America. I'm tired of this. I'm tired of that. I want to do my own thing. And I'm like, sometimes, you know, sometimes you're not the best boss in the world. And people have to understand that. Not everybody's an entrepreneur. and, and, but there's a lot of people that can be good small business owners. And that's what we try to curate is, is follow the recipe, be a good small business owner, make a great living, enjoy your life. I'll guy, I'll never forget. I was talking to a franchisee down in Florida and she was a very much of an introvert. And she said something to me and she was a one truck operator.

53:07She'd been a one truck operator for 10 years. And she said, Tony, I work seven or eight months a year. I make$100 ,000 a year. I never thought I'd be a small business owner and I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. And I thought, wasn't that the goal? Wasn't that the goal is to be happy? And so I was just so happy for her. And it really kind of affected me to think, everyone's happiness shouldn't always be trying to take over the world. Tony Lamb, founder of Kona Ice. Thanks so much for coming back on the show. Guy Ross, I would be on your show any time that you would want me to be on your show.

53:43This is such a great opportunity. All right. It's a deal. Appreciate your time. And by the way, if you guys have not heard the Kona Ice episode, please, right now as we speak, go back and check it out. Scroll back in your podcast queue or look for the link in the podcast description on your phone. It is one of the funniest and most fun episodes of How I Built This that we've ever done in eight years. It's so fun. And there was a lot of laughter. I loved doing that interview with you, Tony, because it was so fun. Life is funny. Life is funny. It is. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. And thanks, everybody, for listening to the show this week.

54:16If you are working on a business and you'd like to be on the show, please send us a one-minute message. Tell us a little bit about your business and the issues or the questions that you'd like help with. And hopefully we can help you with that a little bit. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. you can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll also put all this information in the podcast description. This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo.

54:56Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

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