Aviator Nation: Paige Mycoskie

26:01Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2006, and it seems like whenever Paige goes out wearing her handmade clothes, people ask her, where can I buy that? So she decides to start selling them. And so I decided I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to move home to Arlington. I'm going to tell my parents that I'm going to spend some time sewing only focused on these clothes that I was making. And I was going to try to start selling the clothes. And I just felt like I needed to get into the craft. Like I needed to just be sewing. I needed to see what I could really do. You know, so I went back to Texas for May and June of 2006, and I pretty much did not leave the bedroom.

26:48I set up a workshop and I just sewed all day, all night. And I had like a rack outside my door and I was just making clothes. With the idea that you would then do what? You would bring it to a retailer and see if they would buy them and put them on the racks or you would sell them at a flea market or at a trade show. What was your idea? I basically did not really know at that time. I knew that I was going to try to sell it to somebody back in California. I knew that California was the place where people were starting brands. So my plan was basically to try to get a collection sewn up because I knew that from being the buyer's assistant that people sell a collection.

27:27They don't just sell two things. So I needed to make an actual collection and then I would decide where I would try to sell it. But there was one store in particular that was what I thought was the best store in L.A. It was Fred Siegel in Santa Monica. And that was always where I thought all the new up-and-coming brands were being displayed. And so my goal was to make a collection in Texas and then go back to L.A. and try to get Fred Siegel to carry the brand. Tell me what the designs looked like. I mean, again, was it T-shirts with sewn hearts on them? Was it lightning bolts or was it stripes?

28:08Tell me what it looked like. Yeah, it was a lot of stripes. I would make like a little half sun. So it'd be like a sunset on a bunch of stripes. And then the lightning bolt was another thing that was really consistent. I just loved lightning bolts. And all the stuff that I liked was from the 70s. I mean, a lot of the kind of vintage stuff that I wore and would buy would have kind of those 70s rainbows and stuff on them. I also had posters in my rooms and stuff of like cars that were from the 70s. I think that I get inspiration from the colors of cars and a lot of record albums and old skateboards.

28:50And tell me about the sweatpants or the t-shirts or the sweatshirts. I mean, you were buying those already off the rack or you were making those from scratch? You were actually designing the cut. I was making them from scratch. So I would buy garments at Goodwill and thrift stores and just cut it up into a big piece of fabric. And then I would make my own garment from patterns that I would make. And the way that I would make the patterns is for me, and again, this is like totally no like fashion school. And a lot of people probably think I'm crazy, but I would take my favorite garment, like let's say my favorite t-shirt, I would carefully take all of the stitching out of it.

29:32And then I could lay it flat. And then I had a puzzle, like I had a piece of each part of the garment. And then I would trace that onto paper and I would have a pattern. Over that two, two and a half month period living in Texas at your parents' home, how many items of clothing do you think you made? I would say I probably made around a hundred garments. And what did your parents think about this? I mean, were they supportive or were they like, hey, so what's the plan? Like, are you going to get a job? Like, what did they think? Yeah, it's funny. I mean, my mom is always like, just loves everything.

30:13My dad, on the other hand, is very, very supportive and encouraging, but he's also very analytical. And I'll never forget, we're sitting in the kitchen and I was like, okay, here's the thing. Like, I made some clothes. I was wearing them around. People liked them. I think I'm going to try to start a clothing brand. Well, what do you think? Do you believe in this? And he was like, I'll give you like, I think he said six months to be profitable. He was like, if you're profitable in six months, then I'll believe in you. Something like that. It was like pretty hardcore, but like at the same time, it made sense.

30:43You know, it was like a reasonable amount of time. So I said, OK, I got to do this fast. It's got to be profitable and I'm going to stay focused, you know. So after a few months in Texas, presumably you go back to LA. And by the way, did you have a name for your label, for your brand at that point? I thought of the name when I was back in California, like right after I got back. So I was basically sitting there in my bedroom and I had all the clothes around me. And I think I probably lit a couple candles. I always do that. I'm like big into like setting the vibe. You are definitely living in California.

31:19You're like... I'm a vibe setter. Yeah, you're like proving the stereotypes of like hippy-dippy people in Southern California. You like the candles. Okay, I'm in your room. You're lighting candles. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, and even today, like, I don't start my work until I have candles lit. Oh, my God. And music playing and like the right lighting. I bet your cortisol levels are low. Yeah. Okay, that's good. Yeah. So I kind of set my vibe. And of course, as a photographer, I'm thinking to myself, like, I'm going to have to like shoot photos of this stuff. and what's it going to look like as a brand and literally on a shelf in my bedroom.

31:53I have probably 30 pairs of Aviator sunglasses, all different. Like I get them at flea markets and stuff and I always collected them and I always wore Aviator. I think my first like obsession with Aviators came from Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis and Top Gun because that was my favorite movie. And I had the poster on my wall growing up. And then I remember thinking like, what do I want to do with this brand? Like, you know, this could be cool if it was like also bringing cool people together. And the word nation kind of came from that because I'm like, I want it to be like a group of people that are all wearing these cool sunglasses, this lifestyle, hanging out at the beach, like surfing together, friends.

32:33So anyway, I'm like aviator nation. The very same night I was messing around with what I should do with the logo. And I put the A and the N together. And I realized that that was really cool. And then the lines that are in the A were meant to represent the sunset. All right. So you have a name and a logo and about 100 garments. And so your goal is to get into Fred Siegel. And so how did you go about approaching them? Did you start to call them? Was there like a number for a buyer that you found? What did you do? So it's like the calling people thing just doesn't work. And I kind of knew that from working at the surf shop because when people would call, I mean, it's just like leave a message like the buyer never really got back to most of the people calling.

33:19But I've seen people walk in off the street from working in the surf shop and and being like, hey, can I get a meeting? And sometimes you can. So I first set up a tripod in my apartment and I took photos of myself wearing all the clothes. And I printed out paper like a little pamphlet of myself wearing all the clothes. And so my theory was to go into Fred Siegel and basically be wearing the clothes. And I just walked in and I was like, hey, is the buyer here? And the girl at the counter, I remember, just kind of laughed at me. You know, I mean, the thing is, it was such a high profile store that I think she thought I was nuts.

33:57You know, like nobody walks in off the street to Fred Siegel and gets a meeting. And she's like, no, you know, the buyer's not here. And I said, OK, well, can I just leave this behind for her? And it was the photos that I took of the clothes. And so she's like, okay, sure, I'll give it to her. And so I left the stuff behind and I got in my car. And before I even left the parking lot, my phone rang. And it was like the girl from inside. And she's like, Paige, the buyer actually was just walking in when you were walking out. She happened to see you and what you're wearing. And I showed her the pictures and she loves it.

34:29And how soon can you meet? She wants to meet you. Wow. Yeah. I was just like, what? And I'm like, tomorrow? And she's like, okay. And so I went back. The next day I had my rolling rack and I put all my clothes on there and I rolled them into Fred Siegel. And of course, I'm wearing the clothes. And the buyer looked at the rack and she wanted all of it. She wanted everything. Wow. Wow. And so she wrote an order, a big order, and I think it added up to about$8 ,000. And I had my first order. And she was like, so when do you deliver it? And it was funny because, of course, I have no real hardcore experience.

35:04I didn't know. I mean, I knew I had to make all the stuff myself. So I'm like quickly in my head adding up how many garments it is. I said, I can deliver in three months. I'm curious, though, what do you think explains, I mean, what you were bringing in. It was still fairly straightforward. I mean, it was sweatshirts and t-shirts and sweatpants with mainly with stripes or with the sewn on lightning bolt or heart. I mean, I guess at that time, this is like 2005, 2006, people are wearing like, like juicy couture and Von Dutch hats. And I'm trying to think what they were wearing in Southern California.

35:41What was different? Why do you think this appealed to the buyers so quickly at Fred Siegel? Well, I think it was, you know, the same thing that appealed to the random people that were like stopping me on the street. I think that it really stood out. You know, it was very bright colors in a certain combination that for whatever reason people gravitated to. And it had a handmade look to it. It was just very, very bold. The beginning garments were literally just tons of stripes and tons of color. And I think it was just like, wow, what is that? And so I think that maybe she thought, oh, it'll draw people into the store because it's so colorful or something like that.

36:24How did you know what to charge for each garment? Right. So that was interesting. And I actually credit my brother to this. I called my brother when I was working on the collection and I said, I need to figure out prices on this stuff. And he said, well, what does it cost to make it? And I said, well, it's kind of hard to figure out because I'm like making it myself. And so he said, okay, well, you need to figure out what you value your time at and how much time it takes to make the garment and your cost of materials. He's like, and then you have to add like a little bit of margin because, you know, like if this is going to be your life page, you need to be able to like survive.

37:03So I actually timed myself making certain elements of the garment. And then I remember telling my brother, I'm like, look, it adds up to a lot. Like I've got to sell, you know, this t-shirt for like$65 and I've got to sell this hoodie for like a hundred dollars or whatever. And he was like, it's better to price yourself high than too low because there's always going to be like unexpected cost and stuff like that. He's like, just go in there with the prices and see what happens. And she didn't even bat an eye at the prices. Yeah. So if they ordered$8 ,000 or more, give or take worth of clothing, you probably had to make at least 50 or 100 more garments.

37:48Yeah. And actually, after I left Fred Siegel, I ended up on the way home stopping at the store Planet Blue. This was another kind of really hot store in Venice. And I remember thinking, you know, I'm just going to try for one more. And so I went in there and I was like, hey guys, I said, is the buyer around? And it ended up being the buyer. This guy that I asked happened to be there. And I said, look, I live literally across the street. I just made these clothes. I just sold to Fred Siegel like 10 minutes ago. Nobody else is going to have this, but I think your store is really good. I would love for you to also have it.

38:23And so when I brought it in, he loved it and he was actually a men's buyer and she, and the Fred Siegel girl was a woman's buyer. And I told him it was unisex. It doesn't matter. It's sweats, it's t-shirts. And so he bought all of it for men's like in bigger sizes. Wow. So then at that moment, I actually called my brother and I was like, I now have an order from Fred Siegel and Planet Blue, the two best stores in LA. And he was like, okay, well don't sell anymore because you can't not deliver on time or you're going to be screwed. And he was like, you have to make all this stuff. And I'm like, okay.

38:52So I kind of added up like what it was going to cost. And I went to Wells Fargo and they gave me a loan for$8 ,000. And boom, that was it. That was the money that I used to make the stuff. With that order, you presumably had three or four months to do. You didn't hire anybody. You decided to do this all by yourself. Yes, I did it all by myself. I did actually have my mom helping me. Like she would cut stripes for me and she would also help me make like the labels and the tags and stuff. So you went back to Texas to do this? No, she came out to California and stayed with me. Wow. You basically had a mini Garmin factory in your apartment in L.A.

39:35Oh, yeah. It was the funniest thing ever. I mean, I would be boiling the dye on the stove like while my mom's like making dinner on the stove. And then I had like a hose out of my bathroom window because I was like, I had the whole screen printing thing set up. Like, I mean, it was like a little factory, my whole apartment. I mean, you were buying white fabric, basically? Yeah. At that point, I was buying white fabric and dyeing it. And I, what's funny is, so I made all the garments for the order and I had COD on the order. So they paid you the moment you walked in. They paid me the moment I walked in.

40:11so I essentially dropped off the order at Fred Siegel got my check dropped off an order at Planet Blue got my check I went to Wells Fargo I paid off my loan and I called my dad and told him I was profitable which was pretty dope and now let's wait and see if it sells and so um so I dropped it I think on like a Friday or something and I got a call on Monday and the girl was like Paige, we sold out. We need a reorder. Everything is gone. It was the coolest feeling ever, but at the same time, I had so much fear of how can I get a reorder going so fast? That took me so long to make all that. But it was amazing because it was basically the moment of truth for me that this wasn't just a small thing.

40:58They literally sold over 100 garments in a weekend, and that's a lot of money to make in a weekend. Yeah. And she was like, how soon can you get it to me? And I said, I'll do the best I can. I'll start sewing right now and I'll get you shipments as soon as I'm done with like a stack of clothes, I'll bring them over. And I was just bringing over clothes like every week of however many I could make. And there was a waiting list. People like literally had a waiting list, yeah. And you were, this was literally, you were buying all the raw materials off the shelf. Yes. And then, you know, a few months in, I was like, I need to start trying to figure out how to do this in bulk.

41:39And that was when I kind of started to go downtown and find materials and bigger quantities and stuff like that. Downtown LA to the garment. Exactly. So I would go downtown L.A. and I started just going into factories. I went door to door. And if I saw a factory I thought was clean and looked good, then I would go in and try to meet with someone and show them one of my garments and be like, hey, can you make this? And literally nobody wanted to touch it. Why? They thought it was too complicated. And they were all making like basic T-shirts. Yeah. I mean, this is the height of American apparel was making things in downtown L.A.

42:13Yeah, exactly. And that was what people were making is just real simple, basic T-shirts. Like they had no, I mean, even the single needle machines to sew the fabric on top of the fabric was not even something that they had. So it was a little bit scary because I was clearly making something that was way more complicated than all these other people were making. And I really needed to figure out how to do it. And so finally, I found a factory that was like an embroidery house that did applique work with embroidery. And basically it was a detail shop. It was a very small factory and they did a lot of detail work.

42:49But my question is, you were hand making everything yourself. So everything was slightly different and it was to your standards. Now you're putting it in the hands of a factory. How were you going to ensure that the quality and the standards were what you expected? Yeah. So it was really interesting because I talked them into letting me train their people to do what I was doing, which was really kind of unique ways of doing things with some of these early garments, like the way that I would sew the stripes together with a zigzag stitch. And so I literally sat down with their sewers and taught them to do it exactly how I was doing it, to make it look imperfect because that was part of the beauty of it.

43:35You know, it didn't need to be perfect, you know. And they were trained to do things perfect. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Every stripe can be a little bit different. That's what we want. All right. So now that you had a factory that agreed to make the garments, I mean, you had to now focus on getting other customers or clients. So how did you do that? I mean, did you go to other shops? Did you go to trade shows or anything like that? Yeah. So I actually did end up selling to ZJ Boarding House also. So I went back to them. And then the Abbott Kinney Street Festival was coming up. And I decided that I was going to do that.

44:15And it would be fun to sell basically right down the street in my neighborhood and have a little street fair and make some extra money. And this is like Abbott Kinney, sort of like a hip kind of street in Venice with a lot of cool boutiques. Although now there's a lot of bigger chains, but traditionally a lot of smaller boutiques on that street. Yes. At that time, it was like a hippie hotspot. It was flower shops and coffee shops and little vintage stores and whatever. And they had the street festival. So I spent$500. I bought a booth at the street festival. And I sewed up as much as I could. And I ended up making, I think,$8 ,500,$8 ,600 in one day selling clothes at that street festival.

44:59I imagine or I think pretty soon after that, you really started to branch out. You started to go to trade shows and things like that, right? Yeah. To get into one of these fancy trade shows, it cost$5 ,000 for a booth. So since I had just made the money on the street fair, I was like, I'm going to put all this money into doing the trade show. And I asked my friend, Reed Thompson, who is just a buddy of mine, not an employee. And I said, hey, will you go out to this trade show in Las Vegas and help me set up a booth and see if I get any orders? And we go to this trade show and we set it all up.

45:35And we literally every other booth, it was just really simple, like basic stuff that people were selling. Because I remember walking around just being like, wow, like everything just seems so boring. And then and then my booth looks like a California explosion of color. It was just it stood out so much. No one could walk by the booth without stopping. So it became this like flood of people. And we were writing orders faster than like we like knew what to do. And that night, we got to the hotel room and we had this huge stack of orders. We had sold$150 ,000 worth of clothes. Wow. And that was when it just really became a legit brand.

46:19When we come back in just a moment, Paige starts to build a team and learn some tough lessons about hiring, firing, and getting scammed. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

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49:08Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2008 and business is ramping up for Aviator Nation. Paige has a bunch of new orders to fill and she's starting to think about opening a store. So she hires her friend Reed and goes out to get a bank loan. And I think they gave me a credit line. I want to say it was like$30 ,000 or something like that. So then I start thinking, OK, terms and stuff like that, because it was a whole project of figuring out how to get the garments made on this like tiny little budget. Meanwhile, pay for my living and read and, you know, whatever else. So read and I were working in my apartment, but like, you know, working out of your apartment, you start to think, okay, I couldn't really do it out of my bedroom after a while.

49:59So I was looking around for office space. And I remember talking to my brother about it too. And just being like office space is so expensive. And he was like, well you should try to sell the clothes and have an office in the same building like it was definitely his idea for me to have a retail store so I started looking around on Abbott Kinney because that was like my favorite street and the building that I found that we still have today so that was the first store I really did not have big dreams of having a bunch of retail stores it was kind of like I needed to sell the clothes out of the front to pay for the office in the back.

50:37And the store in your mind was going to be a one-off. It was going to be, that was going to be your store where you would sell the clothes and maybe a few other retailers would also sell them. Yes. But again, like, you know, as far as financing the store, it's actually crazy because I mean, I pretty much built the store myself. I mean, I had my parents help me a little bit, But as far as my dad helped me hang things on the walls, my mom was helping me paint the walls. I had a couple other friends that would come in and help paint. But I built that first Abbott Kinney store for nothing. And how did you decorate it?

51:16I put my own personal belongings up on the walls. I mean, I took my record collection and I hammered it up on the walls. I took my skateboard collection and I put it up on the wall. And all the furniture was vintage furniture that I found at thrift stores and stuff. That's kind of how our aesthetic of our stores was developed. And a lot of the stores still kind of look like that. I mean, I've been to the one in Marin County. I think there's like records like pasted to the walls and surfboards and guitars. And I mean, it still has that aesthetic. Yeah. I mean, one of the big things with me is just realizing it was honestly this like awakening of like, OK, this isn't just about clothes.

51:58This is about building a place. And like I remember going to my grand opening and I showed up and it was like a line down the block of people waiting to come in. And the way it made me feel was so much different than just getting a big order. It was like a high. I was just like, this is amazing. And it seems like based on that experience, you actually decided to start building more stores. I mean, I think pretty quickly expanded to like four of them. There was one in Malibu, one in Manhattan Beach. Yeah. And by the way, were you able to open them all purely through cash flow? Yes. Pure. Wow. Yes.

52:39So cash flow, I was a very, very hard negotiator with my landlords. I basically talked them into starting me at hardly any rent with a sharp escalation of rent. Like I've now negotiated with some of the largest property owners in the country and they've told me actually like this one guy that actually owns all the retail in the Wynn Hotel told me I was the hardest negotiator he's ever met and he owns. Well, what is your what were you pushing for that made you so tough? The thing is for me in the beginning, you know, I knew that I didn't want to take a lot of risk. But I was willing to reward my landlord if I did well.

53:22So I would always negotiate where I would have several months of free rent so that I could have no expense on actually building out the store. And then I would make sure that I got the store built in half that time so that I could have the store open making money before rent was actually due. So that was one thing. I also like to give myself an out. Like in the first year, if it's not going well, I can walk away. and then basically sharp rent escalations that like made sense, you know, to get the landlord to where they wanted to be. But only when I knew that I was making good enough money and land.

53:57And also I'm very, very good at like taking care of stuff. And like, I don't bother the landlord. I try to repair things on my own. But, you know, after I build a couple stores and I've created this buzz, I mean, when I opened Abbott Kinney, my first store, I think like literally a few months after I opened, Abbott Kinney like started to explode. You know, the New York Times did this big story about the Aviator Nation store and Abbott Kinney becoming a new hotspot. And then more stores started to open. And so ultimately, the landlord of my store, of course, you know, in his mind, he's just saying, wow, this now my building is becoming more valuable because page is like, created this thing that's like a fashion place now.

54:39And so obviously, you know, my rent went up and I was happy to pay it because our sales went up. And so then I was able to get landlords to take me on and charge me much less rent just because they thought my store would be good for their street and good for their building. Paige, as the brick and mortar store, and eventually more than one, were doing well, how did you find it to be in a position where you were a boss, where you were managing people and the stores and the brand. I mean, at one point, you let everybody go, like everybody who was working for Aviator Nation. Tell me what was going on.

55:19I mean, was it a combination of you kind of learning how to run a business and how to lead and also how to find the right people? Was it all those things and more? I mean, I think 18 people. what happened with these taffers? Yeah. So basically after my team got bigger and having the four stores in the LA area and quite a few retail employees, it actually started to get complicated and there was some drama involved and it was quickly becoming something that was not fun when it came to managing the people. I started to find out, oh, like this person doesn't want to be scheduled to work in Malibu because they're not getting along with the person that works there.

56:04And then I found out, well, so-and-so actually was like sleeping with this other employee. I mean, every other minute there was another dramatic thing happening and it was all based on the employees. So I ended up doing, like you said, this kind of mass firing all the retail employees. And I literally let everyone go, but I just didn't know how else to deal with all the drama. I couldn't tell who was telling the truth and whatever. I decided at that point that I was going to be extremely strict with who I hired. I was going to make sure that I checked at least three or four references and I had certain ways of trying to figure out the most positive people.

56:48I was like, I only want people working for me that are literally the most positive people that you can imagine. So how did you start to learn how to become a leader? I mean, I think about my own experience becoming a leader over two decades of more of doing this work. I learned over time how to get better at it. I mean, we make mistakes along that journey. All of us do. And I have to imagine you did too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that that period of time before I had to let everybody go, I think that I was really caught up in the business and other things. And I wasn't paying close enough attention to the type of person I was hiring.

57:33But like, I started getting super involved with actually doing every single interview myself. And even until literally until about two years ago, I used to approve every single hire, even the retail level. So I personally, I think what makes me a little bit of a different boss is that I have literally done every single job in the company. And, you know, so I have an understanding of their struggles and what they're going through, whether it's the sewers, you know, I mean, the sewers, the print shop, all of the dye house, you know, like, so if I can speak the language of the employee, then I think that makes me a better leader because I'm able to get down on their level because I've been there.

58:19I think during this period, when you let a bunch of people go, there was a couple who came to you to propose helping you professionalize the business. And that actually turned out to be a really bad decision. What happened? Yeah. So I basically was at a trade show and this couple, this man and wife came to me and they were like, we want to help you manage your production. They kind of said, look, we're going to manage all of your vendors, all your relationships with the people that are helping put the garments together. And you're just going to pay us, you know, a flat fee per garment and we're going to pay all of them.

58:58And I mean, it sounded like a great deal, you know? And so I hired these people and I gave them a big deposit on the production that was about to be made. and they disappeared with all of my money. And they filed bankruptcy and pretty much disappeared. And they had all my designs and they had all my samples and they had all this. I mean, it was like, whoa. I think that maybe coming out of small town Texas, whatever, maybe I was naive or something. I don't know. I was not expecting it at all. And it was a huge chunk of money. And it made me just immediately hardened. Like I went from really kind of trusting everybody to then being like, I don't trust anybody because I didn't want to tell anybody.

59:47And that's another thing, you know? It's humiliating. It feels like - It's humiliating. And like, I have this team of people around me that I've been preaching to like, hey, positive, positive. Yet I'm like in shambles internally, but I have to put on my happy face as a boss and like pretend like everything's okay. Cause the The last thing I want is the whole company to think, oh my God, she just gave all this money to these people that disappeared. And what's going to happen with all these orders we have on these products that these people were supposed to be making? Yeah. But that was the moment that I decided I was going to have my own factory because I needed to control everything.

1:00:22You're going to build your own factory or you're going to work with your own? No, I was going to basically build my own factory. With what money? So at that point, I think I still, I had the credit line with the bank. I probably leaned on that credit line at that point. And so that's how I was able to then, basically what I did is I bought out a factory that was doing work for me. I bought all the machines, I took over the employees, and I hired the guy that was running the factory to work for me. And I realized that it was my responsibility that the garments were made fairly and the people were getting paid properly because if you hire a factory to make clothes in LA and those employees for that factory are not getting paid properly and are not getting workman's comp and all the things, it is my liability, even though it's not my factory, because I'm the one that is selling the garments.

1:01:17And so I just said, you know what, I'm going to like hire my own people and I'm going to make sure that it's all done perfectly. And I mean, you were still a relatively small business. I mean, I think that, you know, by 2012, from what I understand, you're doing about$5 million in revenue, which is still a small business. You were still, as I say, your margins were probably still fairly narrow, fairly slim. And you could charge more for your, you know, your sweatshirts and T-shirts and sweatpants because there was demand. But also the cost was higher. You were making this primarily in Los Angeles.

1:01:53Did you ever at that point or since then think, you know, we really should start making these in Asian factories where it will cost us a fraction to make these products and we can have way higher margins, which is what virtually every fashion brand does. Even the premium fashion brands. You go into Neiman Marcus today and look at the high-end designer brands and much of the material, much of the clothing is made in China and the prices are astronomical. Did you ever consider doing that? No, I never did. And the reason is, I mean, there's a few reasons, but I truly love that this is an American-made product.

1:02:34I've always been excited about the factory experience. I mean, when I was working closely with the small factory and I was becoming friends with those people making the clothes, I think I just felt so connected to all those people that I just never imagined taking the work away from them. Everything is still made in the U.S.? Yeah, everything's made in California. And, I mean, you can, just to play devil's advocate, there is high-quality clothing made in China. The quality of raw materials can be very high. I mean, the only difference is the cost of labor is a lot lower. So is there a world where you could justify in your mind making things in China or Vietnam or another country that would be equally as good but with just lower labor costs?

1:03:25I mean, the thing is, like, I'm like, look, I've already established this brand at this price. People are buying the product for this price. So they're already giving me the money that I need to make it here because I'm not going to lower my prices if I take it overseas. I mean, I've already established the price. And so it's just going to be more money in my pocket. And I don't need that money because I have the money I need to run the business. I'm not trying to open 100 stores. I love doing this slow. And I'm like, so why would I change it? And really, I have done research and I have friends that make stuff overseas.

1:04:01And even my brother made his shoes overseas. And he told me and others have told me, it gets really complicated. I mean, if something is made overseas and it arrives, you can't turn it back, you know, like you can't say, oh, that color is not exactly the color I want. I mean, and I'll tell you every single week I make changes in what's going on in my factory because there's things that have to be adjusted all the time. I mean, every lot of fabric shrinks a little bit differently. And, you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, this collection is not selling as fast as I want it to. So don't make any more of those.

1:04:36like literally stop the machines. I mean, we just stopped a whole collection we were doing for this music festival happening in Egypt because of what's happening in Israel. Like we literally were able to stop it. So it's that, it's like you have the ability to pivot so quickly, which ultimately I think makes me a better brand and a better company. Do you remember in 2016, what roughly what your revenue was? Yeah, I was doing about six and a half million. I had like five or six stores then. So 2016, you're about six and a half million. So each store is doing about a million dollars in revenue because it's all pretty much at that point being sold in stores.

1:05:16Your online sales were probably relatively small compared to your brick and mortar sales in 2016. Oh, for sure. And so going from a six and a half million dollar business to a$20 million or$30 million business, sometimes it requires advertising and marketing. Tell me a little bit about your strategy around that. Yeah, so it was really about opening these brick and mortar stores. I thought having the stores was kind of like a billboard. I'm like, if I have stores in these prime spots, then that is going to naturally get the customer. And then later on, I can grow the online business. But first, for somebody to pay the price point that I was demanding, they would have to feel the product and try it on.

1:06:08Because it really is. It's a product that a lot of the value of it is the comfort level. But if the product's good, then the marketing, in my opinion, was just going to kind of take care of itself by like the word of mouth. And in 2018, like I at that point, I had, I think, eight stores. In 2019, I decided that was going to be my year of like just focused on opening stores. Like I literally spent my entire year on the road and I opened a new store every two months. Like I opened five stores in 2019. So, all right. So you are growing steadily and you hit, what was your revenue in 2019? Yeah. So in 2019, I was up to 27 million in sales.

1:06:53So you'd gone from six and a half in 2016 to 27 million three years later, which is a really nice, healthy growth. Tell me about COVID. COVID hits. And this is, I mean, especially given that you are heavily in brick and mortar, invested in brick and mortar. What did you do? You just shut down all those stores, obviously, and you were going to lose a lot of money. What happened was, like, I remember having like two or three days to like basically close everything. and I'm going to have this huge overhead. And I was like, from now through the weekend, or it might have been 24 hours or something, I think it was 24 hours or something like that.

1:07:33I was like, I want to put out an email that says everything that we sell is going to go toward paying the employees during shutdown because I need a lot of money to carry us through however long this is going to be. I was like, I don't know what else to do. So we sent out an email. I stayed up all night. Like I looked at like orders I had for Bloomingdale's that I knew were going to get canceled. And I put that stuff on the website. Like, and at that time we were doing, I think around$30 ,000 online a day or something. And I put out that email and in 24 hours, we did like over a million dollars on our website.

1:08:09And that basically bought me like four months of overhead. Wow. I mean, your sales exploded during COVID and other apparel brands did too. Viore and other, you know, athleisure wearer, so-called athleisure wear brands did. Did you anticipate that? Did you expect that to happen? Or were you just totally surprised at what happened with your sales? Well, you know, I think that a big part of it, honestly, is this email that I sent out. Because if you think about it, a million and a half is a lot. You know, that's a lot of product to basically go into the hands of all these people that then are just talking to people on Zoom calls and stuff.

1:08:47and then they all see the clothes. I mean, did you have an influencer strategy? No, not at all. Nothing. Did not do any of that. Nothing. Because there was a point where all of a sudden, I mean, every teenage girl between the age of, I don't know, 12 and 18, I'm seeing wearing Aviator Nation and I start to ask around and somebody said, oh, it's all over TikTok. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, I'm all about like letting the stores kind of just post and whatever, But I mean, we don't really have a huge social following either. I think we have less than 300 ,000 followers. Oh, wow. Well, it took a lot of people a long time to discover it because you started in 2006.

1:09:27For sure. Definitely. 2020 is when a lot of people first heard about this brand is 14 years in. So, I mean, 14 overnight success, but in 14 years, right? Yeah, exactly. This is what I wonder about. Your brand is, you know, on fire, right? It is expected, from what I understand, about$130 million in revenue this year. So obviously growing very fast. But I wonder, you look at a brand like, let's say, Tom's. Your brother's the company he started and he's not involved anymore. It was sold. It's not as buzzy as it was five years ago, 10 years ago, right? And I wonder how you think about staying ahead of the curve.

1:10:07There is a real risk in fashion, especially with TikTok trends moving in other consciousness, like in a blink of an eye, that people might not be as interested in this in a year. So how do you future-proof what you're putting out into the world? I kind of attribute this, you know, my strategy to my personality, which is basically that I literally want something different every month. I'm all over the place. I really just constantly have ideas for new design ideas and stuff like that. And even though a lot of the product that we still sell, obviously, is the core product, we basically drop a new collection almost every week.

1:10:54Because for me, I mean, I'm bored. Like, I don't necessarily wear the stripes that often. I wear them every once in a while. But, like, right now I'm wearing a full tiger sweatsuit. Like, I like the kind of crazy stuff, personally. And I think that that's the only way. I have to assume that you're no longer the sole designer. You've got other designers now. No, I'm the sole designer. Yeah, so this is interesting to me. When a researcher contacted you, you responded. I'm going to read what you responded to there. You said, I personally approve all operational practices, store decor, holiday decorations at the stores, window displays, new product displays, all staff goals, bonuses.

1:11:33You'll read nightly closing reports from each location. You approve everything down to the tote bag and giveaway, koozies that we hand out with purchases. and obviously you still design the clothes. So you are, it seems like you're really involved in a lot of things and a lot of things that might maybe over time you're better off letting go. Sure. The thing is what I have done over the years is I have built a small team of people that has worked very, very closely with me for like 10 plus years and they know me so well that it's like a super efficient way of making decisions. So like they're able to almost read my mind and bring me like the top three choices.

1:12:20But out of the 20 decisions that I make a day, let's say, you know, on approvals, there's still one or two like pivotal things that I catch that's being done wrong. And sure, there are certain things that I let go of. But I also have this belief that like you really need to keep your eye on things when you're in a period of major growth, which we are still in. When I interviewed your brother, he was still very much involved in Tom's. And then, of course, it was sold and he's not involved anymore. I mean, tell me how you see this sort of the future playing out. I mean, you own this company. I'm sure there's been interest in either investing or in potentially even buying out the brand.

1:13:03I mean, the thing is, I've had a lot of offers for hundreds of millions of dollars. But I do believe that if somebody comes in and tries to make my company 10 times the size that it is now, that it won't be a good thing for the brand. I think that at the price point and the customer and what I'm doing, it can't be a brand for everyone. I just feel like, why rock the boat? I don't need more money. Thankfully, I didn't take on any debt. I was really good to pay back everything. And so I don't want to bring on somebody that I just have to answer to just for a lot of money. It's not worth it to me to have an extra 500, 600 million in the bank.

1:13:49So then I have to report to a group of people. When you think about your journey, I mean, it's been a slow growth for sure. And now you're really emerging as a unknown fashion brand. How much of where you are today do you attribute to your hard work and how much do you think has to do with the luck of people just discovering it? I think that it's really the hard work. I mean, me and my team of people have really done the manual labor. You know, like I didn't do all the things that people do when they have a huge investment allowance. And we did it ourselves. We figured it out ourselves. We made mistakes.

1:14:32We fixed them fast. And I'm a big believer in not spending a lot of money to hire these big people to come in and like blow up your brand with marketing and influencers and all this stuff because there's not hard work in that. There's just not. And then you don't feel like you really did it. So it just, the feeling of satisfaction I have inside is deeper than just seeing the money that we're bringing in. That's Paige Mycoskie, founder of Aviator Nation. By the way, according to Paige's mom, Paige and her brother Blake started their respective companies on the very same day in 2006. February 26, to be exact, which also happens to be Paige's birthday.

1:15:15And here's another connection. Paige actually designed the logo for Blake's company, Toms. It's a riff on the Argentinian flag with blue and white stripes. And if you haven't heard my interview with Blake about Toms, go back and check it out. It's another really great story. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And as always, it's free. And if you want to contact us for any reason, Our email address is hibt at id.wondery.com. This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Ramtin Arablui.

1:15:56It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Ramel Wood. Our audio engineer was Josephine Neonai. Our production staff also includes JC Howard, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, John Isabella, Chris Messini, Carla Estevez, and Malia Agudelo. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.