Designing shoes for women's feet with Wes and Allyson Felix of Saysh (2023)

26:53But meantime, you became – you were married and became pregnant with your first child. And you were worried about anyone finding out that you were pregnant while you were training so you would train in the dark to hide your baby bump? Yeah. So this was like something that had happened in track and field. And I was naive to it when I was younger. I had been in the sport since I was a teenager. And I kind of heard whispers and saw different things. And then as I got older, I really understood what it was. But women really struggled through pregnancy and motherhood in track and field. And so what they would do is if they were like in between contracts, like I was, they would hide their pregnancies, they would sign new deals, and then they would carry on.

27:46Or contracts would be paused, athletes would be reduced. And so there was just like all of this struggle that would happen. And so I was just, I had so much fear around - Because you were still negotiating with Nike in the hopes of resolving this. Yes. It was the worst timing ever. And I told Wes, I was like, I've been the best client up until now. Now I'm making life really hard for you. And so even where we started off those negotiations, we didn't have anything on paper yet. So the fear really was that even that 70 % less would be taken away once they found out that I was pregnant. So that's when I started to say like, okay, I'm just going to do what everybody else has done until I'm ready to, you know, see something on paper and disclose my pregnancy.

28:33And so I trained at four o 'clock in the morning when it was dark. I went on for a time period where I was competing and I was pregnant and nobody knew. I wore baggy clothes. I rarely left the house. Like this whole time period that like I had dreamed about and that I was so excited about that should have been celebrated ended up being the most isolating, dark and lonely and just really difficult time period in my life. You also had preeclampsia, which I'm very familiar with because my wife also had it with our first child. And so you gave birth at 32 weeks to Cameron, to your daughter. Yeah. I mean, it was crazy.

29:22And being an athlete, I think I took my health for granted. I just never imagined I would be in that scenario. And there was points where, you know, when I called my family, you know, they weren't sure if what they were coming for, you know, were they coming because I wasn't going to make it? Were they coming, you know, to meet granddaughter, niece? Like, it just, it was very scary. And then I think it just made everything feel so heavy because we're going through still this just brutal renegotiations. And then this like real life event happens where it's like, does any of this even matter? You know, I just want my daughter to survive.

30:04I want to be able to leave the hospital. And it was just, it just felt like too much. And in my mind, I had this like plan before any of this happened. And I was like, okay, I'm going to have this baby. I'm going to come back in four weeks. I am going to train. Like, this is what I know how to do. I'm just going to get it done. And then everything went out of the window. It took much longer than I could have ever imagined. And I remember my first workout back. My coach, he gave me a treadmill workout that was a 30-minute walk. And by the end, I am just crying because I just I can't fathom how am I going to compete with the world's greatest and I cannot even get through a walk.

30:51And so it was a very humbling beginning to the journey back. You are still in negotiations with Nike in 2019. Wes, you are very much involved with these conversations with Nike. And I guess they're not budging. They're not going anywhere, right? Wes, what do you remember about Nike just wouldn't move on their offer? No, they weren't. They weren't moving, you know, and I think that one of the things that I would always try to do is let me put myself in their position. How would I look at this if I had their job instead of mine? And it was, you know, you can do what feels right and fair or you can potentially get a top athlete for a whole lot less.

31:38It wasn't that they didn't think she deserved more money or that they didn't have more money to give her. It was on their end a smart business decision. They looked at her age and said, you know, even if she goes and she can win more medals, she's got four more years left. Is another company going to spend this kind of money and then also try to rebrand her? No, we don't think so. and there was an angle of this where we started to really fight for maternal protection and it was because we said to them you know you're already offering her 70 % less we were able to get it from 70 % less to 60 % less so clearly you can see how great my negotiating skills were so we get it to 60 % less you know and then we go through this process of you know disclosing the pregnancy to them.

32:29And for us, it was really important that we had the offer on paper. We wanted that in writing, but we were never for us just morally. We felt like it wasn't right to sign that contract without telling them that she was pregnant. And if they decide they don't want you because you're pregnant after they already offered you a contract, then they can deal with whatever the consequences of that are. But we'll give them the out. We'll tell them we're not going to sign it and then tell them after the fact. So we told them she was pregnant, but we had the offer in writing. If they wanted to pull out, they could have pulled out.

33:04But then what we had to address next was the way that these contracts are set up. You get a bonus if you win a medal, you get a reduction if you don't win a medal. So here was going to be Allison, you know, 10 months after giving birth and she would need to go to the world championships. She would need to win a medal. And if she didn't, she'd get hit another 25%. And for us, that's where it was just like, no, that doesn't work. Like that's the line in the sand where that's not okay. And that's not okay for Allison, but that's not okay for any woman. She's having a baby. Yeah. All right. Right.

33:46May 22nd, 2019, you kind of dropped a bomb on the world. You decided to write an op-ed in the New York Times about this experience of being pregnant while negotiating a contract with Nike. And I guess it came out of stories of other women athletes who were also dropped by Nike and essentially made the point that, like, you know, Nike talks about women's empowerment and markets to girls. And but but when it when it comes time for the rubber, you know, to meet the road here, like they don't they're not supporting female athletes who become moms. Yeah. So what originally happened was I had two teammates who were working on the story with the New York Times and Wes was actually involved in it because, you know, he had done all these negotiations.

34:36And so he was working kind of like anonymously with them and we were kind of sharing different things. And the idea was just that that's what that was going to be. You know, it's never going to attach a name to it. It was just that. And then the Women's World Cup was coming up. And I remember like this very vividly. I was sitting in Cameron's nursery and I get a call from Wes and he has he's like, don't shoot the messenger. But Nike wants to know if they can use your image in this campaign. I think it was in a commercial, you know, for the Women's World Cup. And literally that was the moment that just changed everything.

35:15Because I was just like, what? You know, everything I had been through, and then the birth experience, and I'm fighting my way back to get in shape, and just all of these things. And I knew he was working on the story. And I was just like, okay, I need to be a part of this story. And we have to do this. We have to put our names to this. And I looked at my daughter. That was the reason why, because I wasn't going to let Cameron and her generation deal with the same thing. And at that point, it was kind of like, if I lose everything, then that will just be what it is, because this has to come out.

35:54Wes, when Allison told you she wanted to do this, take on the biggest athletic company in the world, how did you respond? Were you immediately supportive, or was a part of you nervous? No, I was really supportive. And now I say it in a really calm way. There were definitely racing thoughts, but I remember I called up the editor at the New York Times and where I live, you lose cell service from the house until you get down the hill. And I remember I called her at the house and I said, all right, let's go. And then got in the car. I drove down the hill. When I got down the hill, maybe three minutes, I had an email from Nike.

36:44And it was no words, just a contract that they sent via DocuSign. And I called the New York Times editor. And I said, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. Did you already publish it? They just sent me a contract. And I think like in that moment and you know how allison remembers her moment of sitting In the nursery with cameron. I remember for me pulling off to the side of the road Shaking as i'm holding my phone going through and looking at the contract and saying like They had to have changed it and I go through and I read through the first time Don't see any changes. I read through again. Don't see any changes I'm on my phone.

37:27I'm trying to figure out how do I search the document? So I can just do like a keyword search to just search for pregnant, pregnancy, baby, maternity. I'm just not seeing it. I read through probably about 11 times and I just didn't see it anywhere. And I was like, I have to be missing it. There's no way. I just got the same contract. Why would they send it? What's the, what are the chances? You know? And I called the editor back and I was like, I read through it 11 times. There's nothing any different. And she was like, well, how do you feel? And I was like, yeah, let's go. Like, go ahead and publish it.

38:02And put my phone away and, you know, drove away and remember thinking, like, what are we doing? But there was still this calm. I think I remember calling my dad and just telling him, you know, here's where it's at. And he just said, like, you can be proud of this. This is the right thing. And kind of held on to that. And, yeah. And then we let it out to the world. And I remember seeing the New York Times News Alert come through and just like that moment was, it was terrifying. But it was also, I don't think I've ever been more proud of anything that Allison has ever done or that I've ever been able to do with her.

38:50we're going to take another quick break but when we come back more from Wes and Alice and Felix about how their experience with Nike inspired them to start their own footwear company Seiche which makes shoes specifically designed for women's feet stay with us you're listening to how I built this lab. AI companies have unique business models, each with distinct billing needs. Stripe is the go-to choice for AI leaders from early stage startups to scaled enterprises. Whether it's open AI offering tiered plans based on user needs or cursor implementing flexible billing structures for code access, redefining the future requires sophisticated business models.

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41:28Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm talking with former Olympic track star Allison Felix and her brother and business partner, Wes. All right, so you released this op-ed in the New York Times, which details your experience with Nike. And that was a moment that you probably didn't realize it quite yet. But that was a moment that would, of course, change the trajectory for both of you, right? Leading you from this business model that was about endorsements and sponsorships to a totally different model where you would do your own thing. You would actually make a product and that product would be shoes.

42:02At this point, Allison, you were planning to be in the Tokyo Olympics in 2020, which of course happened in 2021. Obviously, Nike was not going to be your sponsor. And tell me how the two of you started to think about, wait a minute, why don't we just make our own shoe? Like, why do we actually need Nike or Adidas on Allison's feet? Like, why not make it ourselves? Yeah, it started kind of with first, I got a new athletic apparel sponsor with Athleta with Athleta. Yeah, they actually they had never sponsored an athlete before they read the op ed and they were just like, let's just have a conversation and see where it goes.

42:43And, but I would say that that relationship really changed my mindset, because I felt like they empowered me, they wanted to celebrate me as an athlete, but also as a mother and support the advocacy work that I had started to do. And so it was like, just this different experience. And so that set us off in the path of, okay, let's try to find this in a footwear company. Like, I love how this feels. It makes me feel good. At this point, I'm like, I see so much more value than just financial value. So let's focus in on this and let's find it. And so at this point, I'm still competing. So I'm wearing Athleta and I am actually wearing Nike shoes and I would just peel off the Nike sign and that's kind of what we were doing.

43:30And then I'm talking to Wes after we're doing this search of trying to find this potential company. And I just got to this place where I'm like, I'm tired. I am so exhausted of asking these companies and begging them to see my worth and my value. And it's like, how am I in this place? I'm trying to compete for my fifth Olympic Games. And I am out here like hustling and grinding, like taking meetings and trying to sell myself to have like a shoe sponsor. And Wes, he's always been the like the one with the big ideas and, you know, the visionary, very like hopeful and optimistic. And I'm like very much so the opposite.

44:13And so we're having this conversation and he's just like, Like, well, why don't we just like do this ourselves? I love that so much. Wes, how did the idea come to you? I mean, it seems so plainly obvious, but also so insurmountable, a shoe, right? But of course, that made perfect sense. How did you land on that idea? Yeah, Guy, this moment is probably going to be, as I share this with you, what's going to keep me single forever. But it was the pandemic. I was sitting there. I was building Legos. And I just, I remember thinking like building stuff. It's like so cool. Like I wonder what other stuff we could build.

44:55And that's how I kind of thought of it, you know, was like, huh, I wonder if we could build a shoe. And it wasn't a serious thought. I wasn't thinking about a business or anything like that. But then when Allison called and she kind of, she speaks to that frustration. And at times that kind of gets me to like, you're just, you're being negative. Like there's hope here somewhere. But in my own frustration, I said to her, well, why don't we just build our own? And, you know, she's, she says back, like build our own shoe company. And like older brother, I doubled down and I'm like, yeah, yeah. Why don't we build our own shoe company?

45:34And, um, and she's just kind of quiet. And then she comes back and she's just like, well, yeah, put together a plan. And I was like, wow, okay. Okay. Um, and I put my Legos down and I, I actually started thinking about it. And again, like it's the beauty of building something is you don't quite know what you're building. You just start with the first step. Something I tell myself a lot and try to share with people is, you know, it's not about 10 steps. There's just one step 10 times. And I just thought through, like, what's the first step? And I went back to her and told her, like, I think this is the first step.

46:16And she was down to take it. Wow. All right. So let's start with the nuts and bolts here. You know you want to do this. But first, Allison's got the Olympics to prepare for. And you want to design a shoe. And presumably, you want this shoe ready in time so she can running them in Tokyo. I mean, first of all, you guys had some sponsorship money. So did you have enough to at least finance like a prototype? Yeah, we were able to, yeah, self-funded. And we said, we knew that if we were going to launch this, you know, it started with the shoe she runs in, in the Olympics. And at that point we were just thinking, if we make the shoe she can wear in the Olympics.

47:01We think other track kids, college kids, high school kids, they'll buy this. What an incredible platform, right? For a runner to be wearing her own shoes in the Olympics. Totally. We were like, yeah, we're going to be able to sell like a thousand of these, maybe like even 5 ,000. We're going to be able to sell these shoes. And I remember talking with a developer that we found and, and, and asking her, like, here's what we want to do. Do you think it's possible? And she's like, I mean, it's possible, but, but it's going to be really hard. And I was like, okay, but, but also like, how expensive is it going to be?

47:38Because, you know, during that whole fight, Alison didn't get paid for almost two years, you know? So there was, there was fear and stress around, is this the right thing to do? Is this a good use of, of money? Are we just doing this because we're frustrated? Like, but we worked through the process and got an idea of how much it could potentially cost. But in that process, there was something that Tiffany beers, the developer that we worked with, said to us that changed it all. What'd you say? She was like, well, you know, shoes are not made for women. And I think we're like, oh, okay. What does that mean?

48:18Yeah. What does that really even mean? And I'm like, no, we've all been to like Foot Locker. Like we see, we see what's that wall of shoes on that side, you know, the pinks and all of those ones. And she's like, no, like they're not made for women. A shoe is made off of a lass, which is a mold of a foot. And it's a man's foot that has been use to make women's footwear. And that just like, it took a while to sink in. And then it just kind of like, blew us away. We're like, well, so what is that wall? And eventually, we understood like, that wall was just marketing. There's nothing different about them.

48:57And then that's that changed our whole course of how we were going about all of this. And that was because then all of a sudden, that feeling that we felt there, it mirrored exactly what allison felt when she got that offer of 70 less it was you have been so loyal to this company and they're totally taking advantage of you they're taking you for granted and we looked at that thought of that wall and footlocker of women's shoes by the major you know footwear brands and we said if that's marketing women are coming in buying those shoes not knowing they're men's shoes. They're buying those shoes because they believe they're women's.

49:39And it just helped us to see there was a much, much bigger problem. And the bigger problem was that women were being overlooked by the brands they're most loyal to. Yeah. The idea that all shoes are basically designed from men's feet is just weird to me, right? Right. And so this idea of building a shoe around a woman's foot, it's almost shocking to imagine that that was revolutionary, right? I mean, both of you sound like you were shocked when you discovered that. I mean, I had been a runner for, you know, 18 some years at this time, and I had no idea. And then we learned that there were molds of like women's feet, right?

50:21Right. Yeah. We learned that like, you know, as we talked with the last makers, as we went to go and build shoes and, and, you know, we said, okay, we have this idea, you know, and what we're hearing is it's not out there, but we want to build a last based on women's feet. And the guy's like, yeah, you want the model AJ nine, whatever, whatever. And I was like, wait, what you have it? And he was like a last based on a woman's foot. I was like, yeah. And he's like, yeah, yeah. We've been studying feet for the last hundred years. Like, yeah, we have a last based on a woman's foot. And you know, inside I'm like, okay, well, how did we miss this?

50:58The whole thing is crumbling. Like this was a stupid idea. And I was like, well, who uses it? And he was like, nobody. And I was like, why would no one use it? And he was like, you know, probably money. And he's like, you'd be making two shoes instead of just one. And I was like, huh. And we had still never made a shoe yet. So that kind of made sense to me. If I have a business where I make a hundred million pairs of shoes, you're burning through molds and no one's asking you for a different shoe. Women aren't saying we're unhappy with our shoes, make one for me. Cause they think they already have one for them and they don't have anything to compare it to.

51:34They've never put on a shoe made for a woman. So you, you guys are fully committed to building the spike shoe for Allison to compete in the Olympics, but it seems so complicated and challenging. I mean, you obviously found the designers and they were willing to sort of work with you on this. And I don't know, with sort of the understanding that maybe they'd work with you on the project in a bigger way on this shoe brand. Yeah, I think like one of the things that we found were we had more friends at Nike than we realized. And when that op-ed came out, I think there were a lot of people who said, thank you so much, because I've had a hard experience.

52:18And maybe my voice wasn't as loud, or maybe it didn't feel comfortable to speak out. There were a lot of people that really respected what we had done around the op-ed. And as we reached out to our developer, she was former Nike. She reached out to a designer who was also former Nike, who then said, yeah, we're in. They said, you know, we built Michael Johnson's spike in 1996, the most iconic spike ever made. You know, we'd love to help. We believe in what you're doing, what you're standing for. And, you know, we worked with Mike Freton on this spike. And, you know, Mike was one of Bill Bowerman's original protégés.

53:00protégés you know he was there in the shed with the waffle maker like putting shoes together he's this master pattern maker and he said oh this is exactly why we started nike at the very beginning it's lost its way but this is why we started it and um and he was like i would love nothing more than to be a part of it and so we were able to have the best in the world um working on this shoe And, you know, they did it and definitely delivered on an unbelievably iconic shoe for a woman and the first shoe to win a gold medal by an athlete who owns the brand, too. Wow. So you, last year, I think you closed a Series A round,$8 million.

53:52Athleta was an investor. And you now have two lines, the Seiche 1 and the Seiche 2. You describe them as lifestyle shoes. So they're not designed necessarily for running, but you're designing a specific running shoe as well right now. Yeah. So our Seiche 1 is lifestyle. You know, it's great for walking. It can do a workout really well. I mean, I participate in all the wear testing and I like I go in on them. So it is possible. But yeah, so excited. Like the shoe that obviously has been, I don't know if I should call it my baby because I actually have a baby. So I probably shouldn't say that. But just, you know, really what I'm passionate about is this running shoe and really giving women something that they haven't felt before.

54:39And not for the woman who is like trying to, you know, break the marathon world record. Because I just don't feel like that is every woman. But, you know, the woman who is doing all the things. I'm really excited to bring this into the world. Yeah. You know, one of the smartest things that, I mean, in some ways it was the luckiest thing that happened to you that would happen with Nike because one of the smartest decisions you guys made from a business perspective was you depersonalized your business. Your business was built around Allison's ability to endorse and to win races. And now you've built a brand using Allison's expertise, Wes, your expertise as runners.

55:20and a business that, you know, can live beyond the two of you that you've built. And that's what's most meaningful. Like, I want this to be so much bigger than myself. It is about women deserving better. And that's our mission. Like, that's our purpose. And we are all so aligned by that. And it is. It should go so much further than just myself. And so now as I've transitioned from track and field, like right into this business that I love and believe in, I love that it's centered around that very core message. Yeah. And Wes, when you think about, I mean, you know, just two years ago, you're like, let's make a shoe.

56:03And your sister was like, what? And then you've got a shoe and now you've got a brand. So, I mean, tell me about the vision. I mean, obviously, so much of this is about women and creating products for women. When you think about what Seiche will be in 10 years, how would you describe it? Yeah. 10 years from now, I hope that Seiche is a brand that women feel really gets them. A brand that they are really proud of, that they know sees them and works really hard to know them. We've talked a lot about how we celebrate women holistically. You know, we have a maternity returns policy Where if you're a woman who whose foot changes size while you're pregnant I can't imagine like all of a sudden waking up and my foot's a different size and now I need to throw out Every shoe I ever had so, you know for us We feel like our contribution to you doing the most incredible thing on the face of this planet we can send you another pair of shoes in your, in your new size.

57:08Um, so I hope that like, we are a brand that can meet women exactly where they are for everything that they need from us. And if we can do that in footwear, then we don't want to stop there. We want to ask women, what else is broken? What else are you realizing? Is it made for you? And we want to do our best to look for other things that aren't made for women. And then we want to show up and provide those products for women and make sure that they continue to feel seen and known by us. Wes and Alice and Felix, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. This was incredible.

57:45Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab. Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at How I Built This and mine is at Guy Raz. And on Instagram, I'm at guy.raz. If you want to contact the team, our email address is hibt at id.wondery.com. This episode was produced by Chris Messini, with editing by John Isabella and research by Lauren Landau Einhorn. Our audio engineer was Alex Drewenskis. Our music was composed by Ramtin Arablui. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Liz Metzger, Sam Paulson, Kerry Thompson, and Kira Joachim.

58:31Neva Grant is our supervising editor. Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.

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