Reimagining seafood production with Aryé Elfenbein and Justin Kolbeck of Wildtype (2022)

0:00Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to How I Built This Early Early and Ad Free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcast. Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Audible has an incredible selection with over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and Audible originals, all in one easy app. Find the genres you love and discover new ones. explore bestsellers new releases plus thousands of included audiobooks podcasts and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time enjoy audible anytime while doing other things household chores exercising on the road commuting you name it audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your everyday routine without needing to set aside extra time there's more to imagine when you listen.

1:06Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.com slash built. I've stayed in awesome homes on Airbnb in places like Athens and Berlin and Rome, and each time these places have given our family a chance to feel like locals. It's the best way to travel. Picture this. You're spending a cozy evening out of town in a home you booked on Airbnb. The space is thoughtfully designed and you think, I bet I could host my own home on Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. Your AI agents make your teams more productive, right?

1:48But if they aren't connected to the rest of your business, how productive can they really make your teams? Any business can use AI, IBM helps you use AI to change how you do business. Let's create smarter business, IBM. Hey, everyone. So the How I Built This Lab team is taking a little time off for the summer, but don't worry, we'll be back in your feed with fresh How I Built This Lab episodes in just a few weeks. Meantime, I hope you enjoy one of our favorite episodes from last year with the founders of Wild Type. It's a company working on lab-grown salmon, just like the real thing, without the actual fish.

2:27So hope you enjoy it. Here it is.

2:36Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. All right, so a lot of us have made the decision to either cut back or completely cut out meat from our lives. For some people, it's a moral issue around harming animals. For other people, it's health. And for me, it's because the environmental impact of meat consumption. But I still eat meat and I still eat seafood. And admittedly, I have occasional pangs of guilt knowing that I'm contributing to a bigger problem. Livestock production is a huge contributor to global carbon emissions. Our oceans are being overfished and the huge amount of microplastics floating deep in the sea are making their way into our fish and consequently into our bodies.

3:24So a good question to ask is, do we need to kill animals to create meat? Well, until recently, the answer was, of course, don't be ridiculous. But with advances in stem cell technology, we are coming much closer to a different answer. And that's a starting point for a company called Wild Type Foods based in San Francisco. Wildtype was started by two friends, Justin Kolbeck and Aria Elfenbein. Justin was a foreign service officer who spent time in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Aria is a biologist and a trained cardiologist. But together, they ditched their careers to pursue the idea of growing real salmon without killing a single fish.

4:09Wildtype is not a plant-based substitute. The company grows real salmon from real salmon cells to form real cuts of sushi-grade fish. And while you can't find their products in grocery stores or restaurants just yet, Wildtype is part of a growing number of companies hoping that within a few years, cell-cultivated meats will become just as common as those plant-based substitutes. Aria Elfenbein and Justin Kolbeck are with me. Guys, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Let me start with you, Aria. You are a cardiologist, right? Justin, you were a State Department employee.

4:53You've lived in countries all over the world. First of all, how did the two of you meet? Yeah, it's a funny story about how we met. We met in my first year of internship. So this was after I'd finished medical school and was just starting to train as a doctor. And there was a dinner that both Justin and I were invited to. And the idea of this dinner is that nobody knows anybody else at this dinner except the person who is hosting it. And I had never been to a dinner like this. You were at Yale, right? Yeah, exactly. And Justin happened to be doing an MBA at Yale at the same time. Right. It was around 2011.

5:31Is that right? Exactly. Okay. And it was for me at that time, somewhere between 80 and 100 hours a week in the hospital. But something about this invitation and something about the possibilities of just what could happen at a dinner where you don't know anybody else at this dinner. Right. Really intrigued me. And I went. And that's when I met Justin. I ended up sitting next to him at this dinner. And Justin, you were doing an MBA. Tell me what you were thinking about doing. I mean, you had been at the State Department and been a Foreign Service officer. Clearly, you were thinking, maybe I'm going to make a change.

6:10But what were you thinking about maybe doing? I had just finished an assignment in Paktika province, Afghanistan, which is on the Pakistani border. I was on something called a provincial reconstruction team, which is essentially what it sounds like in terms of the goal. And I had always had it as a life goal to get a graduate degree. Kind of the first person in my family to go on to college and then being able to get a graduate degree seemed like something that I was very passionate about. And so I decided to take some time off from the State Department and do an MBA at Yale because it was this mission-driven school.

6:49And that really appealed to me, that it wasn't just about going on and working in an investment bank, but maybe having a big impact on the world, which is what drove me into the foreign service to begin with. And so to be honest with you, I showed up at school and I met these people that had started companies that were making, it was basically like a netting that went over a bassinet, and it would help reduce the incidence of child malaria. And so somebody who started a company, employed all these people, is having this huge impact on the planet and just had a really big effect on me. And that was sort of the mindset I was in when I sat down next to Aria.

7:27Aria, you were a cardiologist and you already had your medical degree and you're doing a residency at Yale. I mean, you were clearly on the fast track to becoming a prestigious cardiologist, maybe having an appointment at a university. When you had met Justin in 2011 at that dinner, was that where you thought you were headed? Absolutely. So I had, you know, finished medical school. I had done a PhD mostly in Japan around the same time and in the same place where the discovery was made that we could create stem cells from ordinary skin cells that completely revolutionized the world of science. And I absolutely thought that my career would be one that would stay within academia.

8:18The research you mentioned changed the entire conversation because it used to be that you had to cultivate stem cells from fetuses, and there was a lot of ethical debate around it, right? Exactly. And this research showed that you could cultivate stem cells through skin. Right. And, you know, prior to that, there was a moratorium on research in the United States on stem cells. And the future of understanding how these incredible cells grow, develop and communicate with each other was really in question because of this. And so this incredible discovery really changed everything. It took all of those moral issues off the table.

8:55And all of a sudden now we could understand how a cell becomes a neuron or a liver cell or any other part of the body, essentially adopt different careers for themselves. So you were really on this path to becoming a heart doctor and really also doing research around therapy for those with heart ailments. Right. Meantime, Justin, you're maybe taking some time off from the State Department where you had worked in the developing world, getting an MBA, and then maybe going back into that world. The two of you meet at this dinner and what, you instantly connect that night? Yeah, you know, it's rare when you're an adult to make new, deep friendships, I have found.

9:40Yes, it is, yeah. And, you know, to me, this felt like one of those rare opportunities where you can really, you know, connect with someone who would be a lifelong friend. And I don't think Ari and I were initially thinking about, hey, let's go start a business together. It was more, you know, a great deal of mutual respect, really different backgrounds. I had a great deal of curiosity about the work that he was doing. And, you know, we'd get together on the weekends and talk about things that we were interested in. And this idea started percolating a little bit, this sort of entrepreneurial spark, I guess.

10:16I remember very clearly we were having coffee in New York City one morning. We had this friend who came to us and said, like, let's come up with 100 ideas for businesses. And maybe most of them would be really bad. And we sat down, Ari and I, and sort of started penciling out some ideas, not because we were serious about starting a company, because it sounded like a fun thing to do on a Saturday morning. And through that process, hearing each other think about what really matters to us, the silly ideas that we came up with on that list started to fall away and I think pair back into something that would later become wild type, something that the two of us are extraordinarily passionate about.

10:59Justin, what were the kinds of business ideas that the two of you were talking about? I mean, were you sort of listening to what Aria was working on and saying to yourself, hey, this is interesting. The stem cell stuff is really revolutionary. Maybe there's something there? Or were you talking about business ideas that were completely unrelated to that? Oh, this is so embarrassing, but why not? I mean, this makes for interesting radio, right? We had a few ideas on there just to give you a sense of the range. Like one of them was an idea to create a new kind of neti pot that we would call the schnozzle.

11:33And the idea was, you know, doing a neti pot is actually very good if you're feeling congested. But it's kind of gross, right? The water goes in one nostril and out the other. Yep, I've been there. Yeah, you're like hanging your face over the sink and, you know, flushing your nasal cavity. And also, what innovations have been brought to the neti pot in, you know, the last thousand years? Yeah. And what could we do to make it extra special? I love that. So we would sometimes on the weekends get modeling clay and come up with all kinds of different designs and ways that this might work and all the things that we could do to make the neti pot so much better than it already is.

12:11that the thing that was missing, I think, for both of us was a real hook that tugged at our heartstrings, right? That's something that we could, you know, that we cared a lot about. And yeah, I think that that conversation really started back in, you know, in earnest in 2015, when when we first started talking about this particular idea. All right. So 2015, Ari, where did the idea for, you know, for cultivating meat? Where did it, where it come from. I had one of these rare vacations that they would give us in residency and went back to my childhood home of Australia and was in the far north parts and where there used to be a lot of rainforest, a lot more than there is right now.

12:57And today, a lot of it is agricultural land. And I was just kind of looking around and thinking about everything I had learned about not just stem cells, but what modern agriculture means, particularly when it comes to beef. And I just, you know, kind of asked this question of, can we still eat meat and not eat animals? And thought about like, you know, we must be able to do this. And then I started to think about, well, what would it mean to create the fat? And what would it mean to create certain cuts of meat and didn't really know that other people were already working on this. And one in particular, Dr.

13:42Mark Post in the Netherlands, was somebody who actually, you know, about 15 years before that, I had worked in the same lab with, also doing cardiac research. And he had gone on to create the world's first hamburger in this way. And he organized the first conference about this. And I was just riveted. I'd never been to the Netherlands. I didn't know why I was so interested in this whole field. But I just went. And it was incredible because nobody knew how many people were going to show up, what it was going to be like. And there was a very special energy in the room there. And it was truly an event that changed everything for me.

14:30By the way, are you vegetarian? Are either of you vegetarians? When I moved to San Francisco, I slowly reduced my consumption of meat. I think that it's something that even since I was a child, I never really felt comfortable with the fact that when my parents would feed me chicken, that that was a chicken. And Justin, are you a vegetarian by any chance? I would say I'm a conscientious meat and seafood eater. And I have to say this with no judgment. I eat meat. I'm a meat eater. But I understand this idea of feeling conflicted about it because we know that there are huge environmental consequences to it.

15:10And also there's this moral conundrum. You're actually killing an animal. So it sounds to me that you already, both of you, had some of those issues in your mind. Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, for me, I started learning about our food system and really in a great deal of depth going back to some of the time I spent in Afghanistan, which is one of the most food insecure places in the world. And, you know, got back to the U.S. and dug pretty deep. And it was clear that at some point eating meat and seafood at the rate we are is not going to work anymore. Right. Yeah. For all the reasons you mentioned.

15:47There's environmental reasons. There's sort of humane reasons. there's economic reasons um but yeah i i think you know for me i have a couple small kids and you know really how do you have that conversation right yeah that this isn't for free and it isn't limitless right that's that's how we do it at our house but at the same time i really like to have a hamburger on the fourth of july and on the barbecue once in a while and a steak once in a while and you know fish on a fairly regular basis and so i i think there's just a lot of people out there that are in this really difficult place where you're trying to juggle your values and your instincts.

16:25Yeah. All right, Justin, Aria, stick around for just a moment. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, more about the founding of Wild Type. Stay with us. You're listening to How I Built This Lab.

16:41One of the coolest things I did last summer was take my family to Athens where we saw the Parthenon and the Agora and all those amazing neighborhoods and ancient historical sites. And one of the things that made it so awesome was the home we booked on Airbnb. We literally had a view of the Parthenon from our bedroom window. There was a hot tub on the top floor. We could sit in it overlooking the entire city. And we had a kitchen and access to markets. And we were in walking distance from all of the things you would want to see. It made the trip so, so amazing. And when you take your own vacation, that's actually a great time to host your home on Airbnb, your place with your cool art collection and your handy kitchen gadgets.

17:24It might just be what someone else needs to feel right at home on their next trip. Plus, your earnings from hosting provide you with another income strain and could even help offset the cost of your next trip. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. This show is brought to you by American Express. Running a business means making countless choices every day, some small and some that can change everything. The business owners who thrive are the ones who are ready for whatever comes next. And having the right support behind those decisions can make all the difference.

18:04That's why so many business owners I talk to choose the American Express Business Platinum Card. It's built to help them move quickly and take their business further. And with five times membership rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels booked through Amextravel.com, you can turn any business trip into a chance to earn more and invest in your business's future. Plus, you get a flexible spending limit that changes as your business does, adapting to where you are and where you're headed next. Because when it comes to growing your business, there's truly nothing like Business Platinum. Not all purchases will be approved.

18:45Terms apply. Learn more at go.amex.com. You know, one of the most surprising things about how I built this is just how many pitches we get every year. tens of thousands of businesses reach out hoping to tell their story. Now, while we do try to read most of those pitches, we can't possibly read all, but we choose most of our guests through our own deep research. And that means my team and I spend hundreds of hours digging into companies, what they make, who's behind them, and whether their journey can inspire you. And that's exactly where Claude has become such an incredible thinking partner in my creative process.

19:25Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough, the thinking partner that works with you to explore the things that fascinate you. Whether you're researching late-night curiosity spirals or working through complex creative challenges, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems together. For example, imagine I'm about to sit down with the founder of a snack company. I'll want to know what products they've released, how they've evolved, and which competitors they're up against. In the past, it could take hours to track down reliable details. We'd search articles, databases, reports.

20:01Now, Claude can give me a clear answer in seconds, and then I can decide what to dig into further. It doesn't replace my process, but it sharpens it. And that means I can spend more time doing what I love most, focusing on the human stories, the lessons, the decisions, and the struggles behind the businesses you hear on this show. Experience what collaborative thinking feels like at claude.ai.hibt and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.

20:41Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and I'm speaking with the founders of Wild Type, a company that grows real salmon, but without the salmon. Aria, when you started, the gears in your head started to turn around, sell cultivated meat. at the time, and it's not that long ago, it's 2015, 2016, there weren't that many companies out there growing cells. How did you land on maybe trying this with seafood? Yeah, it wasn't actually seafood at first. We went through a whole exercise, much like the exercise for which companies we'd start, about all the different kinds of meats and seafoods that we could make.

21:27And a couple of the axes on which we plotted this were cost and controversy. And if you imagine the kinds of meats that would be in the extreme upward right quadrant for that, things like foie gras would be pretty much at the top of the list. And foie gras is a really interesting meat as well. And the reason is because it's relatively homogeneous in terms of its texture. And it's actually also predominantly one cell type. So it's not sort of fat cells and liver cells. It's mostly liver cells that have just been exposed to a lot of fat. And this was the first thing that we wanted to work on. So, I mean, that sounds like a great idea because it's so cruel, right?

22:13We know to produce foie gras, you're force-feeding ducks and geese.

22:21So So what happened? Why didn't you pursue that? So we were able to make some foie gras, like a fairly small amount, and people tried it. I remember the first person that we invited to try it was a friend of ours in San Francisco, and it was a tiny amount, like so small that it was almost difficult to really taste. But we did it, and we did it in relatively short order, probably from start to finish in just a handful of months, really. But even then, I think we started having these conversations about, okay, well, this is really interesting, but are we going to really have an impact on the planet by working on something like foie gras, which most Americans have probably never had?

23:06and how many people actually consume these products. And I think at that point, we started looking a little bit more broadly and a little bit more globally and thinking about, well, what does our species eat? And so it was a very quick transition, I think, for us after we made that initial proof of concept. All right, so you guys realized that to have an impact, you really have to tackle something that lots of people eat. So you essentially decide to kind of pivot from foie gras to fish. Is that the conversation you started to have, Aria? Yeah, that's exactly how it happened. We started to realize that what we didn't want to be creating was a company that just made fine food for fancy people.

23:54And instead, we wanted to stay true to what the mission was, which was to use this method of growing seafood and growing meats to actually have a positive environmental impact. And it was around this time that our focus did shift in terms of thinking about what could we do with this method. And it very quickly turned to seafood, as Justin described. All right. Help me understand how you technically you did this. Like, I mean, Aria, were you you had access to a lab? So were you kind of just was like a little corner there that you were just kind of playing around with with cells and, you know, salmon cells?

24:39Like, tell me how you how you started to do it. Yeah, San Francisco was one of the few places at that time where you could actually rent lab space by the hour. And we applied to be able to be part of one of these areas. And it was in San Francisco. It was actually very close to the university. And for the first time ever, we had our own lab. And I should say that at this time, we still had our day jobs. And in my case, I had two. So I was still working as a researcher. And I would also work overnights in the hospital in the intensive care unit. Wow. And this was something that Justin and I would do on nights and weekends.

25:26We would get these eggs and do these dissections and learn in just the most incredible way what these cells loved in terms of nutrition, how we could get them to thrive, what conditions would be optimal to grow them in. And, you know, when we think about food, it's for the most part muscle and fat. And so we started by just growing cells. Wow. I mean, Justin, I mean, you guys were – the challenge you were trying to solve for was this idea of sustainability. We know that we're running out of seafood. We know that we're overfishing. And not just that. We know that the fish we're consuming today is full of microplastics, that every time we ingest fish.

26:14and I think even land animals, were consuming plastic. Yeah, that's right. There are a couple of real challenges with seafood. As you pointed out, it's almost impossible to find uncontaminated seafood anywhere in the world. And you mentioned microplastics. The number that I can't get out of my head is 5 grams or the equivalent of a credit card worth of microplastics that go into our bodies every week. And not just that. there's mercury and antibiotics and parasites and the list goes on and on. And with seafood, unlike a lot of the other types of meats that we eat, it's not about eliminating these things.