Sharing the 2023 HIBT Lab Highlight Reel

27:18It's basically the infrastructure for communities. It allows you to start a community on the internet and monetize it and run it very, very easy. It's everything I've been doing for the last seven years, all the meetups and the communities I've built over the last seven years. I've built the software to enable it. And we think technology and media both can scale and bring people together. And that could be a thing for the next 30 years. So that was this thing that you built, Nas.io, which was sort of like Salesforce for people who want to build a social media community, like a customer relationship management tool.

27:55Exactly. So we've built monetization features to help you monetize your community. And we take a 10 % cut from anything you do in the community. Simple. And did you bootstrap that? Did you just use the money that you had from Nas Daily, or did you raise money to build that? So at the beginning, it was self-funded. So received funding was done by myself. But then I decided that, okay, this is going to get really expensive. I need investor money. So one year in, we went and raised$23 million total to achieve this vision. Got it. Okay. So you've got that business. Meantime, there's another part of the business called Nas Academy.

28:35Yes. Which is like a, we will train you to do what we do. We will teach you everything soup to nuts about how to make viral videos. Yeah. So, so NASA Academy is, it's the same business as NASA IO. It's just two products. NASA Academy is basically cohort based education of how to become a creator. It runs all on top of the NASA IO software and it's five months long. And basically from when you join until five months, we teach you everything that we know. right? Me and 10 other teachers. Every person teaches you their specialty. They're all creators. And then you graduate and then you go on to get a job in the media space or to become a creator yourself.

29:16And what we think is going to happen is that there's going to be a need for digital universities to complement traditional universities, to teach engineering, content creation, and maybe entrepreneurship. Those are the only three things we want to teach. So it is an education arm. It's a profitable business unit, but it's still community driven. It brings people together. And having these different arms of the business, can you just kind of break down where your revenue comes from? So last year's revenue for all of Nas Company is$11 million. $7 million was for the production, the Nas Daily. Then the$4 million, the majority of it comes from Nas Academy.

29:57And then now Nas.io is the newest one. It's two months old. So it's still starting, But I think by the end of the year, it'll be like a major revenue driver. And the reason why I like NAS.io is it's a scalable model. It's something that could get 10x bigger in a month, which is very different from NAS Daily and NAS Academy. All right. Let me ask you about where you draw the line. Traditional media organizations have very strict rules about how they cover things. And you're right. I think you open up the daily paper and a lot of the news is negative and a lot of the spin is negative for sure. And you were trying to do something different.

30:36But when you're working with a government, for example, where do you draw the line? I mean, you look at a country like Russia, for example. Okay. And Russia has invaded Ukraine and it imprisons dissidents. But it also like has a thriving art and fashion scene and an incredible culinary scene. So if the Russian government came to you and they said, hey, we don't want people to think about us as like the invaders of Ukraine. We want people to think about us as like this incredible, vibrant culture where we have great food and fashion and art. Can you make a video for us or help us make a video that does that?

31:17What would you do? To be clear, we've had people from China, CCTV, tell us to go to Xinjiang and talk about the culture and the food. And not to talk about the people who are imprisoned, the Muslim Uyghurs. Yes. For me, that was a step too far. So I said no. But we also had people from the State Department tell us, hey, why don't you make videos about China and how bad it is? In my opinion, first of all, we have one rule, which is we don't really discuss politics. We promote tourism, we promote nations, and we promote things that are a little bit not geopolitical in nature. Second of all, with Russia, it's a little bit tricky.

31:54Don't forget that I'm from Israel. And for at least a billion people on the planet, working with Israel is like a big no-no. And we've never worked with the Israeli government, to be clear. But one thing I've realized is that this whole what's taboo and what's not is very relative. For you, Russia is a big no-no. But for people in Saudi Arabia, they're like, Russia is our friend or people in Syria, Russia is our friend. And so for a creator in Syria, they're much more willing to work with Russia. It's all relative to what you think is a no-no and what you think is an acceptable thing. So I have to make my own little sort of compass, what's acceptable and what's not.

32:36My compass is very different from an American perspective compass. And that's what many Americans need to realize is that the world does not center around America and American interests. And then my compass, I just follow that. Because in general, I'm wondering how you say you've got your compass, and I believe that. You have a strong compass. But there's still – it's tricky, I guess. And again, I'm not knocking or criticizing. I'm trying to kind of break it down because I think it's really interesting. And I think it's – look, as somebody who was a journalist my whole career, you deal with all kinds of dilemmas as a reporter.

33:14But I wonder whether it is necessary to work with governments. In other words, let's say you decided I'm not going to work with governments. But if a Russian tech company or a Saudi business wants me to work with them, great, happy to do it, especially if what they're doing is innovative and interesting. And there you're dealing with a company that might be from a country that is in the middle of a geopolitical conflict, but you're not focused on the government of that country. You're focused on the business in that country and what they're doing. I mean, wouldn't that be a cleaner kind of approach?

33:49Yeah. So that is an amazing American dream in which private sector and public sector are separate entities. Yeah. But that doesn't exist in Singapore, in the UAE. They're so intertwined. I have a business in Singapore. We all love Singapore, right? But the government knows everything about every business and works with every business, right? And so, yes, you can do that separation in America, but you really can't do that separation in many countries around the world. Because they're just so intertwined. Yeah. That business in Saudi Arabia, half of it is state-owned. Now, what do you do? Do you work with it or not?

34:26Let me ask you about this world of content creators. I mean, obviously, today, it seems like everybody is a content creator. And you have this academy that really helps people build out their brands and their platforms and to monetize it. But can we have a world where everybody is a content creator and for that world to be productive and harmonious and sustainable? I mean, part of me is like, I kind of worry that so many people want to become YouTubers, so many young people, my kids, you know, they're friends. And again, I might just be like, I have the worst, stupidest perspective about this.

35:06I concede, but a part of me is like, I don't, I'm not sure that's sustainable, that we can all become content creators. So first of all, we are at 1 % of the way there with how many content creators we need, similar to how many software engineers we need. We are at 1 % of the way there because monetizing videos has been very, very new. So we're just at the beginning. Okay. We're not at the end. Second of all, when you say content creator, you think a guy with a model on a beach saying, Hey guys, I'm here. Come to visit this beach with my girlfriend. That is not what a content creator is. For every content creator can be in front of the camera, but there's 10 people that can be behind the camera.

35:48A video editor is a content creator, a script writer, a researcher, a producer, a Discord community manager, a NAS.io community manager, why shouldn't we create those jobs? The world needs those jobs. I mean, when you say it's not somebody on a beach saying, hey, come check out this awesome beach and my hot girlfriend, that's not what you're hoping to build. But what do you want those content creators to do? Do you want them to do videos like you did at NAS Daily? Right. So when it comes to content creators, I mean, the average person has 11 or 10 different hobbies, right? You can create content about swimming and how much you love swimming.

36:26You can make educational content about running, how much you love running, painting, you know, your country, you can make travel. I mean, here's the thing. For the majority of the internet, media has been created in Los Angeles and consumed globally. But there is no Nas Daily in Libya. There is no Nas Daily in Morocco. There's no Mr. Beast in Egypt. There's no Mr. Beast in Denmark. So these are all opportunities for local content to be created. In the future, there is a room for 195 more Hollywoods to be created. The days in which the whole world is watching Will Smith on TV and Tom Cruise for the 55th movie are done.

37:07That's why we need content creators. That makes sense to me, but I'm not totally convinced that hundreds of maybe billions more people can create sustainable livelihoods as walking billboards, right? Like, if essentially what you're saying, hey, I'm really into running in Libya, and I'm going to have a running channel in Libya. And then like, there can be 50 ,000 people who do that in Libya. Like, is there enough advertising to support all of those people? And do we really want to be inundated with that? No, there isn't enough advertising. And advertising based content creation is a flawed model.

37:44And I would dare say it's a fraudulent model. This is the model that has been working, but it will not work in the future. So I'm a runner. I start a community for 100 people. I create content for 100 people. And each one of them gives me 10 bucks. I'm already making 1000 bucks a month. So you can create new jobs. And that's where the future is heading, in my opinion. I'm trying to cut all my subscriptions back. I got Spotify, Netflix, Hulu, Disney. what else do I have? Peacock. I'm up to my ears in subscriptions. That's just like the fraction of them. Now you want me to pay my friend who's a runner to join his Discord?

38:22But guys, these are not communities. These are streaming content software. But are you part of a, let's say, tech community in San Francisco? I hear you. I hear you. There are clubs. You join them, you pay a fee. And so the idea is that you have these self-sustaining communities of people who are building content that's valuable. Yes. Okay. So I know you're about to do another Nasdaily series. You're going to go to a bunch of other countries. I mean, people are still coming for you. So are you still in front of the camera in 5, 10, 15 years? No. So I'm getting hosts. So now I have different hosts that get in the videos.

39:03I'm taking myself out of the video slowly but surely. my personal ambition is very simple. I want to do things that are life and death. That's it. I don't want to be selling Coca-Cola. I don't want to be creating furniture. I want to do things life and death when I'm 50, 60 years old. So what is life and death when you're 50 and 60 years old? Healthcare, right? Hospitals, doctors, medicine, government, politics. That's it. In my opinion, in, nothing else is important. So the way I see my life is the next 15, 20 years, I'll be in the private sector. Great. Then I will have no meaning from the private sector.

39:42I'll have somebody to run it. Then I'd like to go and join a government, any government, and try to actually create life and death solutions. I think that's amazing. There's a lot of power in that. There's a lot of influence in that. And that's much better than any YouTube video you can make. Right, right. So then tell me about the future vision for the Nas universe, right? I mean, you've got the CRM, you've got the Academy, you're still doing brand and government partnerships, and you now have over 100 employees. You brought in some investment, right? And your revenue is growing and you have a vision, clearly, to turn this into a multi-billion dollar brand, I think, because you're ambitious and smart.

40:24Where does it go in 10 or 15 years? So I'm going to give you a bit of observation. I found out that the American way of building companies is very different than the Asian way of building companies. The American way of building companies tells you build one product, make that product really big, go on IPO and just like continue working on that product for the next 10, 20 years. Like Slack. Slack is a one product company until it got acquired. Perfect. Right. That never made sense to me. So I'm much more inspired by the Asian way of building it, which is build an ecosystem, build 20 different companies that all complement and help each other.

41:04That's my vision. I think there's an opportunity for the next Virgin group because Richard Branson built an incredible ecosystem of I'm going to take a boring business and I'm going to make it fun. And it's like physical stuff. My ambition is to build similar to Virgin, but I'm gonna build products that bring people together in technology, media, travel. So the way I envision the next 10 years is NAS Daily, NAS Hotel, NAS IO, NAS Summits, NAS Foods, NAS Venture, NAS whatever. I want to build a NAS ecosystem where every business line helps the other. That's my 30-year vision. We're not building something to be acquired and put it on the LinkedIn.

41:48I'm building something that I believe has the capacity to live beyond my life. That's Nosair Yassin, founder of The Nas Company. You've just heard an excerpt of our conversation and to hear more about Nosair's journey from software engineer to social media influencer to tech entrepreneur, listen to the full episode in our podcast feed. You can find it by searching Nas Daily and How I Built This.

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44:34Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So for years, listeners have asked us for updates from past guests. So this year, we started doing it, and in 2024, we will hear from lots more, including Jim Cook, the creator of Sam Adams Beer, who was on the show for the first time back in the first season of the show. But earlier this year, I caught up with Whitney Wolf Hurd. She's the founder of Bumble. Whitney was first on the show in 2017, and if you haven't heard that episode, definitely go listen. It's in our podcast queue, and it's a great story. Anyway, Whitney came back onto the show a few months ago just before stepping down as Bumble's CEO.

45:16And one of the main things I wanted to ask her about was what she thinks the future of dating might look like. You know, I met my wife at a barbecue, right, like 23 years ago. And then, you know, I remember there was like in the 80s when I was a little kid, I remember like there's matchmaking, right? Right. And then Internet dating really starts in the 90s. And then apps is how young people are connecting today. What's like the next version of this? How are people going to be connecting in 10 years from now? So the next version of this, this is going to catch you off guard, but it's meeting at the barbecue, but via Bumble.

45:58OK, so I think the next horizon is going online to get offline. So in the near future, it will not be unimaginable to get on Bumble. And instead of swiping yes and no on a bunch of people, you might be swiping yes or no on things that sound compelling to you in the coming days. Maybe you're in the mood to go to a barbecue that has certain music playing at it on Friday night. and we know that there's 35 other people going and you can see that half of them have some level of compatibility to you, but we don't disclose who they are until you get there. And we let serendipity and fate kind of do a little bit of its own old fashioned work once you arrive.

46:45So I think that is one piece of this. I think the other piece of this is, and I cannot emphasize this enough, it's where I'm spending 80 % of my free time right now. Now, AI is how we are going to meet people. It's how we're going to meet people. Yes. Right now, when you get onto a dating platform, you are basically sifting through a thousand options to walk out with a few, right? And then of the few, you might have real compatibility and chemistry with a couple. And of the couple, maybe one will work out, right? So it's a lot of work. It's a lot of energy. It's a lot of time. it's a lot of letdown.

47:28And the issue is that in kind of old era dating apps, which I would say anything before generative AI, it was very hard to capture signals and dynamic qualities in a person beyond just their surface level interest, right? I like to go running. I like to eat this. I like to listen to live music. I like to do this. This is my religion. I want kids, whatever these, these different, um, kind of filters are, but how can we really find out if someone is loyal? How can we find out if someone is kind? How can we find out if someone is funny? These are signals that technology really mutes, right? And so I think the future is leveraging these machine learning capabilities to actually bring photos to life, bring people to life on the screen.

48:24And my dream, Guy, is 10 years from now, we will be able to prevent breakups before they ever happen. We will be able to prevent bad relationships from ever having a potential of happening. And more importantly, my big dream is we will help people love themselves so that they can love others. And I think that is our biggest issue in this country right now when it comes to connection is self-hatred, low confidence. So if we can reverse engineer that, we're onto something really special. I absolutely love your optimism around this. I love your energy. I love your passion. But I am going to throw some skepticism because I worry about a future where, I don't know.

49:10I mean, I've got all these things go through my head, minority report, you know, just, well, we're served the perfect menu of five to seven people that have been chosen for us based on machine learning. When we know that humans change, you know, I'm a different person today than I was 23 years ago when I met my wife, we've grown and changed together. You know, I remember my grandmother telling me before she died, about how when she was a child, most marriages around her in her village were arranged. And that oftentimes they did not love each other, but they grew to love each other over time. And those marriages work.

49:47I'm not saying I support arranged marriage. I'm just saying that it still feels to me like there's so many factors, so many just intangible things about being human and about love that I worry can't fully be captured by a machine. And I'm an optimist about AI. Do you know what I mean? Do you understand some of that concern? I do. I do understand that concern. And I think what we're focused on is making sure that we don't build products that hurt us. That as we implement AI further into our business, which I expect our business to be a real AI business. I'm very anchored on it and I believe in it.

50:30I want to make sure it's done ethically. I want to make sure it's done with real human connection at the helm. And I think, you know, my concerns with AI are that there are a lot of people out there that are building products to get people to actually replace humans with AI. And I think as it pertains to love, my big focus is to never, ever, ever replace a real human dynamic emotion, want or need with a computer, with a system, with a model, with a bot, right? And so what I would like to do is help humans connect better. So what's really fascinating, Guy, is a huge chunk of survey respondents of people that are single and want to be in a relationship but don't use a dating app yet.

51:23They don't do it because they think they'll be bad at it. They think that they don't know how to date. They think that they're not capable of it. That to me is remarkable opportunity to create goodness in the world by using AI to inspire confidence. So we have been hard at work exploring ways to have coaches or matchmakers or friends in your pocket, whatever you want to call it. Basically be that wing woman, wing man, wing person in your pocket to really show you that you've got this and to have your back, give you positive affirmations and to kind of guide you along the dating journey. So if they are scared to chat, right, like they're scared to start a dating chat, for example, they would then chat with their coach first.

52:14And their coach, which is AI, would coach them through it, give them feedback, would help them feel ready and prepared for the game. So how can we actually help people show up as better versions of themselves? And I think it's interesting. We've seen the very first iteration of self-help tech, call it the head spaces of the world and the calm. I would say those are very 1.0 versions. They're not dynamic in the moment when it comes to connecting with others, right? These are things you do kind of on your own, meditations, breathings. How can you do these things in real time as you're on the quest for friendship or love?

52:48So essentially, it sounds like what you're saying is if AI is used in the right way in this context for love, there is somebody for everybody in theory. There is somebody for everybody in theory. Obviously, I can't make that promise, but what I believe is you rarely attract a relationship healthier than your self-esteem. instead of us just saying here's a person and here's a person and here's a person why don't we actually focus on self-love first how can we help you build your self-esteem ai can be a great catalyst to this through different mechanisms and tools i mean you've seen people learn languages through duolingo why can't you learn the language of of self-esteem and love right um and so i think we can be a really powerful tool in helping people feel better about themselves at the get-go and then, guys, something amazing happens here.

53:44If you have a user base and a supply of people feeling better about themselves with higher levels of self-esteem, what do you get less of? Abuse, harassment, toxicity, ghosting, all the icky stuff that comes with dating will subsequently decline. I'm wondering what you think about, I mean, there are infinite ways to connect to meet today, more so than ever. I mean, you can do it from your bedroom, right? And yet, there is an epidemic of loneliness in the United States and even in other countries. Given the fact that there are so many more ways you can connect today than ever, what, why do you think that is?

54:27What explains that? So the pandemic did not help. It completely exacerbated the issue. But here's the thing. You started this by saying you can meet people from anywhere now. We're all online. We're all super connected. The reality is we're all very connected and disconnected at the same time. When you are on social media, you are technically, by definition, connected, but you are emotionally disconnected. So friendship has moved online and it has actually killed friendship. Chatting with your buddies on TikTok and Instagram does not count as relationship. That is not a soulful, real relationship.

55:14And candidly, it creates more of a voyeuristic fear of missing out dynamic than it does a real safe, connected environment. So what you've seen us do with Bumble for Friends, our new standalone friendship app, is we've said, let's use tech to connect, not tech to disconnect. And there's a real, real gap here. And there are not enough products in the world that are actually technically engineered to get you online to then go offline. In fact, the monetization models on the majority of social media is dependent on you being on your phone as much as possible because they're ad businesses. We are not an advertising business.

55:58Sure, we have some advertisement, but we are a subscription model because we don't care if you sit and use our product for two hours or two minutes. In fact, everything we are working on from a product prioritization standpoint right now is to shorten the duration that you're using our product on any given time because we want you to go online and get offline. Yeah. You know, I'm curious about the AI model, though. If you are, I mean, to some extent, your business depends on customers coming back again and again and again, people going on hundreds of dates, right, because they're paying subscribers.

56:34But if this AI model works like better than you expect, and all of a sudden, like, you're matching people perfectly and like they're going on the first date and boom, they're engaged, they're done as Bumble customers. I mean, what are the implications of that? You know, you make the algorithm better and then you actually have fewer repeat visitors. Every single Saturday, and I mean it, it's like clockwork. I get at least one text message from someone in my network that they're at a Bumble wedding. And that Bumble was just mentioned either in the vows, in a groomsman speech, in a bridesmaid speech, or it was on the menu, or it was in the photo booth.

57:14And it had been integrated some way, somehow. Why do I mention this? A success story is worth more than 200 failed dates. Let's just say we have 50 forever relationships. Those 50 forever relationships have now left Bumble app, the dating app, but they have throughout their dinners and lunches and gym and professional lives, they have told countless people. They have pollinated the product. They have been brand ambassadors for us in such a way that those 50 success stories become a flywheel of growth. So 50 success stories is worth more than thousands of failed dates because those failed dates turn into the reverse flywheel of negative feedback.

58:04And so we're actually absolutely aligned with the customer finding success because their success is our success. And we're in this to help them find healthy and equitable relationships. You know, I was thinking about what you're saying about using AI like to coach people. And I think that's very real. It's going to be happening more and more. And I wonder, I mean, the logical, potentially logical extension of that is it could it solve loneliness in that? And I'm not saying this is a good thing. But, you know, there's that movie Her many years ago, a few years ago is a beautiful film. And Scarlett Johansson was a voice inside of Joaquin Phoenix's ear.

58:39And that was he was in love with her. He was in love with an AI voice. And it was very plausible. It seemed very real. It's not implausible to imagine that with where AI is going. I mean, obviously humans, you know, we believe we need human connection. But is there a world where, you know, Bumble has a product that is basically a virtual romance? No, not under my leadership, at least. Listen, that's not what we are here to do. We are definitely not in the business of trying to wipe out humanity and trying to get people to fall in love with, you know, fake iterations of humans. I don't want to use AI that way.

59:25I think. I mean, it will be used that way. You know that. Yeah, but you know what? It will be. Like, if that's really what happens, then we've got bigger problems than the future of Bumble. Unfortunately, it's what happens to the future of humanity, right? If we kill love human to human and we replace it with human to AI, we only have another generation left. It'll all be over if that's really the case. For me, it's how do we actually use AI to make relationships human to human better, stronger, healthier, more respectful, more equal, more empowering, more inspiring? how do we actually help end loneliness through getting people to really form and forge real friendships with one another instead of stay locked away on their phones in their bedrooms or on wherever they are for the rest of their lives.

1:00:20How do we get people to look each other in the eyes and not just through a screen? And so that's really what we're focused on. And the Her movies, you know, five years ago seemed really sci-fi, but you're right. I'm sure some people will be doing that, but my job will be to convince them to meet a real person. Yeah. So Whitney, you've been at this for a long time now, but you're still just young. I mean, you have a lot of life ahead of you. What do you see yourself doing in 10 years from now? Do you see yourself running Bumble? I mean, who knows? You're a public company. Your board can always throw you out if they want to.

1:01:03But I mean, what is your, what's your sort of vision of where you'll be? So I think I will always be focused on the core mission of Bumble. I think it is my life calling. It is my purpose, which is to help the world have healthier relationships. Some people dedicate their lives to the research of rare diseases when it's claimed the life of a loved one. Some people dedicate their lives to solving problems that have directly impacted them, right? That is, I believe that problems and pain and devastation happens to inspire a body of people to go and fix those problems for others. And so it's my sincere belief that I will be working towards healthier love, healthier relationships, and helping people love themselves.

1:01:56That's the why. I think the how will manifest. But I am absolutely focused on Bumble for as long as I can see out. There is no road in front of me that is excluding Bumble from my life. I do believe that my time will be better used in thinking three, five, ten years ahead versus just two quarters ahead. But that'll manifest as it's meant to. And I will say that I am absolutely fascinated, committed to, and on the track of integrating AI into love and connection and friendship and relationships. That is my obsession at the moment. And it is going to be until I really land the plane on it. And I really want us to be part of positive AI.

1:02:48I really want to make sure that we course correct from the mistakes that were made with the explosion of the quote unquote old Internet by leaving women out of the equation, by not thinking of the ethical options. And so I really hope that we can be a part of the more ethical path forward. That was an excerpt from my conversation with Whitney Wolf Hurd, the founder of Bumble. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. There were so many amazing guests on How I Built This this year. And if you liked this episode, I hope you'll go back and listen to the full interviews or maybe listen to another episode you might have missed.

1:03:27And from everyone here on the How I Built This team, we hope you have a great holiday and happy new year. This episode was produced by Chris Messini with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Malia Agudelo, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This Lab.

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