Simon Cowell: Music Mogul

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38:51Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the early 1990s. Simon is working as an A &R consultant for BMG and scouting around for his next hit record. The way the business worked in those days, we were still manufacturing records. So all the independent shops or the chains, if they wanted to reorder a record, they would phone the telesales department. And I used to go in and talk to all the people in there. What's hot at the moment? You know, what's selling? It just gave me a kind of an idea what was going on. And I was very friendly with a lot of them. And just by luck, one morning I walked in and one of the girls who I think ran the operation, she said, Simon, we're getting calls all morning for a song by two actors from a TV show.

39:46I said, what is it? She goes, Unchained Melody. And I said, OK, leave it to me. So anyway, I track it down, which was the night before on this show is a drama series called Soldier Soldier. These two actors in a kind of a love triangle story, one of them or both of them are singing this song. In the show. In the show, not for long. And it's in the end credits. And it was, I mean, obviously a cover of Unchained Melody, which was written, I think, in the 50s and then famously sung by the Righteous Brothers. Yes. And because the story was so powerful, the song just resonated immediately. So the following morning, thousands of people literally are walking into record shops saying, is that record available?

40:39and so the shops were phoning all the all the all the companies saying wow do you have the rights to this record and they went no so i'm like okay but this is a good opportunity so anyway got hold of their agents hi i'm simon carl uh everyone's trying to buy this record would your clients be interested no uh what do you mean no they're actors let me talk to them personally no anyway i get hold of them personally eventually would you ever consider doing this absolutely you not um and i said well why and they just said we're not interested so i thought i can't give up on this i felt i had an understanding of what the audience wanted and that's always what drove me which i thought if there was a potential demand for something give them what they want so i just was relentless you hounded these guys i did hound them if i'm being honest with you So finally, I was able to meet one of them.

41:42And I said, look, I know that you're taking this really seriously. I think there will still be a demand for this record. If I can get you in a studio quickly, make the song, I'll get it out. You have to do much. yeah on top of that if you go in the studio i'll give you a hundred thousand pounds to split between the two of you and they went really and i went yeah so i managed to actually to get them on a television show to perform the record it was the actually the national lottery the lottery show was big in those days so we did it and then the following morning is the day of release and if you get three four thousand five thousand repeat orders on the first morning you're heading to a top 10 you get 10 to 20 000 you're heading to a top five you get 50 000 plus repeat orders you're heading top two number one so i really need to know because we basically had to, on sale or return, give the record stores a ton of records we also manufacture.

42:51So the risk now is getting higher and higher and higher. So I'm really in a hole here. I was so nervous that morning. What's the repeat order like this morning? And I looked on the screen and I saw this number and I went, no, what is the real repeat order this morning? that number was 930 ,000. Wow. It goes ballistic, this record. And I mean ballistic. Everyone, not only did they sell out, once people knew the record was available, everyone's trying to buy this record. We can't make enough records. So I've got every pressing plant across Europe in 24 hours trying to make enough stock to fulfill the demand.

43:41And I think that was my real first kind of like, you know, oh my God moment, you know, television is such an important, you know, key here. Emotions are such an important key. Everything, you know, together, if you manage to make all those things work together, you know this is incredible all right let's so you have this this sort of mega hit and you're still in this joint venture with bmg and and and essentially an a and r but you've got you kind of it's kind of like your own imprint like in publishing essentially it's sort of yeah a similar analogy um and one of the one of the acts that kind of slipped through your fingers and you've written about this, which was a regret of yours, was the Spice Girls.

44:34I don't think it was your – I think you wanted to sign them, but you couldn't sign them. I think the girls were told that I'd passed on them. That wasn't the story. We used to have to sit in an A &R meeting once a week and a business affairs meeting once a week. It was a very kind of rigid system. Every week, you would have to tell everyone what you were working on, you know whether you had a chance of a hit who you were signing and then in the business affairs meeting you would be told whether you're making money or not so you know it was a really good system they'd created you know within bmg to kind of teach us to be entrepreneurs as well as music executives you know it was really really smart actually so in a during one meeting i remember one of the a &r guys saying i'm hearing a buzz about a band called spice so i just it was in the back of my mind and then i went to a meeting with my uh people who used to plug my records and they had been hired to work on the spice girls at an early stage and as i pulled up the girls were in a camper van or something and and for some reason knew who i was uh you know as an a and r person and dragged me into their van and played me uh wannabe and this is before mobile phones i get in my car floor it back to my office call the manager and said look i'll literally double whatever deal you've been offered if you haven't already signed and he said too late they signed and so whether they had or not i don't know whether that was true or not but that's how i i missed out on them but soon after that you sign westlife which also becomes a huge act um and i I know that you've talked about this when Westlife, when their record hit number one, you also found out that same day that your father had passed.

46:30Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the terrible thing about it was, yeah, I mean, I was kind of at a point where I never actually could believe that my parents would ever pass away. I just loved them so much. I just couldn't ever imagine it. so when I was playing demos and things like this at home you know my dad had a really good ear for music and he would say I think that's going to be a hit sign I would go with that record if you're going to choose between the two and he was always right and he'd heard the first Westlife single and he said I think that's going to be a big hit for you and I'm like really he went yeah okay well I'm going to give it a shot.

47:12I believe in this band. And I was in, I think I was in, I was in America. I was at a conference and I was waiting to get the news about the first morning's repeat orders, which were great. And it was a, wow, this looks like it's going to go to number one. And then my boss walks into my bedroom and goes, I've got some news for you. And I'm like, oh my god and it just hit me like a train you know i just wasn't prepared for it um so you know i flew home and went to see my mom and uh i think i had to take at least one or two months off work i just couldn't go into work i was so upset yeah i can imagine um and i mean this this happens about the time where your your career takes yet another major turn because i mean i mean here you are you've got a bunch of successful records now right west life and and i mean you know you could have been like a like a super producer like a clive davis right like we could have been talking about now yeah 20 25 years later all these artists that you signed and you signed this band and that band but but that's not the direction your career went into Right.

48:33So before we get to where it went, did you let's say, I don't know, 1999, 2000, could you have anticipated that for the next 25 years of your life, you would become a television star? Like, was that even on your radar? Never. No. I got an approach about this show. It was called Pop Stars. And it was about making the making a band basically on TV and there was going to be auditions. and if I agreed to be the judge then I would get the group that was created which I did think yes this sounds like a pretty good idea reality tv started to take off and I could sort of see this in my head which is yeah I think people find the whole process interesting and it's a great platform for a new artist so you know whoever the group is they're going to sell a lot of records so initially I said yes and then I thought about it and I went you know what no I'm not going to do it it's just too much out of my out of my time it's not something I'm even remotely interested in so I called back the television company and I said I'm not going to do it um so they they gave that role to somebody else another A &R guy so however I'd heard enough about the show that it was niggling me and I went away on holiday and I think I must have seen something whether it was I'd seen one of the episodes a short bit of it and I thought oh god this is going to be huge we've got to find a way of coming up with our own version which is what me and another guy did This is Simon Fuller, who is the manager of the Spice Girls.

50:21And so you kind of got together with him to create your own concept. Yeah. Me and Simon went into two companies, ITV, BBC, both said yes. However, ITV said, you've got to be on the panel. And I just thought I can't miss out a second time. So I said, yeah, I'll do it for a year. you know the artist gets signed to me which is all i really cared about if i'm being honest with you and then after a year someone else could do it that's honestly what i what i had in the back of my mind and then when the show aired it became an instant hit and then america instantly made an offer to do their version so idol becomes a huge success in the uk and fox very soon after wants to make a version, an American version of it, American Idol.

51:14And this really is the first time American audiences are introduced to you. And this is 2002 when terrestrial TV was totally different than what it is now. Like people would sit down and watch en masse. So all of a sudden there's this Brit on American TV next to Paula Abdul and Randy Jackson. Most people knew who Paula Abdul was. A lot of people might know Randy Jackson. They didn't know who you were. So how were you introduced to American audiences? Like how are you? How is your sort of credibility established? How do they do that? I mean, there was none. I mean, first of all, when they made the offer, I said yes.

51:50And then about a day later, I called them back and I went, I'm just not interested. It's not going to happen. And I really had made my mind up. It was absolutely no. Why were you not interested? I mean, this was massive exposure for your business at the very least i just didn't love the whole being on tv that much i mean i kind of loved the idea of signing the artist the being on tv just you know wasn't really my thing if i'm being honest with you guys genuinely and then a friend of mine who i really respected i spoke to her and said i'm in a bit of a dilemma at the moment you know they want me to do the show in america i don't know if it's going to work there or not.

52:31And she said, well, look, so I'm knowing you. Either way, you're going to beat yourself up. If it is a hit and you say no, you're going to beat yourself up. If it isn't a hit, you could say if I was on the show, maybe I could have made it better. So I'm like, yeah, you're right. You're right. Okay. So I agreed. And by the way, I didn't ask for any money for myself on both the British show and the American show on the first year. I said, I don't want a contract. I don't want to be paid. If it works, then we're going to have another conversation if it works. So all you got was you were guaranteed to sign the winner.

53:09Correct. Yeah. And that's what I really wanted. And so when I went to America, I remember we rented a house and I got to the house and the real estate agent said, I'm not sure about this new show of yours and i said why he says well the network have asked for a one month break in the rental agreement oh great anyway we made the auditions the auditions were just a mess if i'm being honest with you uh there weren't that many good people and i just thought this is a disaster an absolute disaster to be honest with you guys genuinely i finished filming I didn't even know when the show was going to air in America.

53:54I actually didn't know. I'd forgotten about it. I was back busy in the UK. And then I get this phone call. I could just hear this guy screaming down the phone. You know, the ratings are in, the ratings are in. And it's a hit. I'm like, what? American Idol, everyone's talking about it. And they want to meet you. And I'm like, really? And they went, yeah. I'm like, okay. And that dynamic worked, at least from the viewer's perspective, worked so well. with paul abdul and randy jackson like it just it the three of you it was the perfect chemistry yeah but here's the thing right and so that first season kind of legendary and i know know it very well because i've interviewed kelly clarkson twice on different shows that i do and so i've i've gone deep into that experience for her like winning that right and kelly clarkson becomes kelly clarkson right it's his first season and now then she becomes a megastar um what i mean you didn't want to be on TV, right?

54:52You were, it just, it sounds like you were just, it wasn't, it wasn't interesting to you. But the thing about being on TV, because I was on TV for two years back in, in, in, as a reporter 20 years ago, it's a completely different beast. Like there's a, there's a charisma you have to find. You've got to jump out of the camera and it, and some people have it and some people really have to work on it and learn it. It, it doesn't, you don't come across as like a two-dimensional person in that like you come across as somebody very comfortable on tv so but was it uncomfortable for you no because i'd done so many auditions in my life because we were always creating bands and groups you know that was all we ever used to do i mean i spent most of my year auditioning people and i knew what auditions were like you know they were like, most of the time people aren't very good.

55:47You have to be honest, they're pretty quick. And what I wasn't going to do was change who I was just because I was on TV. I wasn't going to lie to these people and say, oh, I think you're amazing and everything's going to happen because I knew the reality, you know, which is, it's hard enough if you can sing. I mean, it's impossible if you can't sing. So I was just frustrated that first year thinking, I just want to find a star. and if we don't find a star, I'm going to look really stupid. So I'm getting increasingly frustrated. You were just doing what you had already been doing at auditions, which were not filmed.

56:20You would get people together and you would give them feedback and the feedback was just very blunt and then you were doing the same thing. It's not like you created a persona of this harsh guy. You were just doing what you do. I always respected tough love. and I did make that very clear by the way when I agreed to do the show in America so just so we're clear I'm not going to pretend to like people I don't like I'm just not yeah and I am not judging you maybe a little bit no I'm not judging I promise but I I'm I'm curious about how like how that kind of played out because I think your your feedback today is slightly kinder a little bit.

57:03And maybe that's just because we're in a different era. But like in the earlier days, and certainly, you know, as it went on, you can see people are like deeply hurt. And I get it. Like sometimes you would have people come on or often and they would say, I'm going to be the next pop star. I'm going to be the biggest star in the world. And they'd come on and it would be shocking. Like they were so horrible. And you would think, are you delusional? And that's what But you want to, like most of us in our minds are like, are you delusional? But most of us wouldn't say that because we're kind of socialized not to say that.

57:38We'd say, oh, thanks so much. That was interesting. I think we're going to pass. Look, I mean, the point is, going back to what I learned, you know, becoming successful in A &R was when you first start out, you have to have a correct steer. because if I hadn't had that correct, if I'd had somebody lying to me and saying everything which I was doing wrong was right, I never ever, I promise you, Guy, would not have been able to have a successful career. If you're entering into the entertainment full stop, you've got to have thick skin because you're going to get so much rejection. I actually think for me, I would rather someone say to my face, I think your idea stinks.

58:22it's absolutely terrible and this is why it's terrible and i'd go well i'll disagree rather than it's wonderful and then as i leave the room they go that's the worst idea i've ever heard in my life and you know that does happen i've heard it happen and to give you an example when i talked about setting up that very first business you know when i got that job at emi uh and we you It was a tiny little business and we needed backing by getting money from each territory to give us an advance against earnings. That was the business kind of model. So we had to go to America. So I turn up in my very, very early 20s to LA and I'm like, oh my God, this is unbelievable.

59:07Look at this place. It's everything and more. And I go in to meet all these people and I thought, my God, I've had 10 meetings in a row. and everyone's going to back me, every single person. This is incredible. I never heard a word from any of those people and I was really pissed off because I thought, wow, every single one of you lied, just lied. I would have rather someone said, Simon, the reason why we are not going to back you is your songwriters aren't very good, the songs you played are terrible, you don't have a business model, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we are not going to risk any money about your wild idea.

59:49And I would have gone, I respect that. When we come back in just a moment, Simon talks about his latest project, which he says is one of the hardest things he's ever done. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

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1:02:08Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So by the mid-2000s, Simon Cowell has one of the most recognizable names in TV as the force behind American Idol, America's Got Talent, and The X Factor. And one day, while he's judging one of those shows, a kid who works in a bakery named Harry Styles shows up to sing. He's got a lot of charisma. You can see it already as a 16-year-old kid. I mean, of course you remember that moment because he became Harry Styles. do you feel like when you see somebody like that you are a hundred percent airtight sure that they that they will make it no no i think what you're looking for on a first audition is potential you know has this person got potential that's the only thing i think you can say i mean some people you know have better voices on their first audition but may not have charisma Harry had a good voice.

1:03:10He was nowhere near the peak of what he could do as a vocalist. But his charm was just, I mean, crazy charm. I mean, he was 16. He wasn't phased by 7 ,000 people in front of him. And he's talking to me about pies and cakes and stuff like that. I just really liked him. And that was it. I think it was that season where the other singers would be put together as One Direction, right? Was that same X Factor? I mean, was it like my sort of conspiratorial mind is like that was engineered, like to find those guys and have them all audition separately. And then for them to come together and make this band One Direction just seems like totally fantastical.

1:04:00Well, it was interesting. None of them really popped, you know, as they did on their first audition. And I remember seeing, you know, the five of those in particular, just going, you know, we don't have room for them as individuals, but this would be crazy, crazy to lose them. and then I just turned around you know to the other two sitting at the table and I went well why don't we put them in a band I mean it was quite obvious that these five just looked amazing and they had great personalities and I just thought you know having put together a lot of bands you know in my life before I thought okay well maybe we just got lucky here what have we got to lose um so I said look we're going to give you a lifeline you've got two weeks to work it out and good luck.

1:04:50And that was just, that was it. And this was a band that you would eventually sign to your label, Psycho, which I want to talk to you a little bit about because I think you really kind of, it really started in 2005, Psycho Entertainment as sort of a production company. Tell me a little bit about how you operate that business and also, you know, appear in the shows and prepare for the shows and edit the shows and then run the business. How do you kind of manage your time? I've, you know, we all evolve and we find, you know, how do we work best? And, you know, even something as basic as working out one year, well, how many meetings do I actually have per year?

1:05:38And the number was frightening because it was over a thousand. You think about that, a thousand meetings per year. and it's very easy you know three six five times three it's a thousand you know and you you i don't think you can function well like that i think you know what i i've learned now is less is more yeah don't do two things in the same day you know whatever it is if i'm filming i won't take a call won't look at an email i will only concentrate on filming and then when i'm doing something else it It has to be just that thing for the day. Whereas years ago, I would be doing seven or eight different things in a day, working till seven in the morning, thinking I'm doing a great job.

1:06:21And I don't think I was. And it sounds crazy. But in between all of this is how do you make everything good? You know, how do you make each artist sound good? How do you make the show look good? How do you make each week better than last week? I mean, that's really the only thing that's going on in your head is that is that no matter how overwhelming this is, the quality has got to get better. I wonder about just all of that time. I know you've got a child and that I'm assuming changed your life. You know, I've got two kids and it does change your life. It changes how you see the world. But before that time, would you have called – I mean, were you – such a weird question, and I know Brits particularly hate this question, but were you happy?

1:07:13I mean, would you have called yourself a happy person? I mean, you were so successful outwardly, making a lot of money. You were a celebrity, traveling all over the place. I don't think so particularly, no. No, I don't. I did actually remember saying to myself, before Eric was born, is this as good as it gets? Because you get very stupidly get caught up in ratings battles, chart positions. You know, I know this is important, but I started to think that was more important than the quality. And I had to do a massive, massive shift. And luckily, when Eric came along and I started to really, I suppose, well, first of all, I just looked at everything he loved as a kid.

1:08:03And I realized that actually he still loves The Jungle Book. He loves 101 Dalmatians. He loved every movie I've ever loved. Nothing had changed. And it kind of reminded me, actually, when something's good, it's good. And if it can last a generation, isn't that your main kind of aim rather than trying to be so radical one week to get the ratings up that it might damage your long term brand or something, which I think we all were guilty of at some point, you know, where now I'm completely the opposite. I'm thinking, you know, if you get to 20 years with a show, how do you get to the next 20 years?

1:08:49And you don't do it through gimmicks or anything else. You do it by the talent has to get better. The editing's got to get better. Everything has to get better. You know, that's the kind of the drive I still have. What does the drive come from? Is it you against yourself? Is it you against, I don't know, someone else or an idea of what people had of you? Because you're driven by something that keeps you going. Like you could stop working now. And of course, it would be interesting because working is interesting. But you are still, I wonder if you're still chasing something. I'm always chasing something.

1:09:32I'm doing something at the moment where I am really putting myself in the public eye to prove that I can do something I was well known for doing a few years ago, but I haven't done it recently. And I did it to prove a point, I think, to myself that I either can or can't do it. This is your launch to find a new band, a new boy band? Yeah. Yeah. And I did it, you know, not with any, you know, um, buffer in any form whatsoever was, this is when we are going to launch it. And this is going to see if, if we get enough people to audition and, and if we don't get enough people, we're going to have to do what I used to do years ago and just promote, promote, promote.

1:10:17And to the point on the first day, genuinely guy, I had no idea whether there was going to be two people or 400 people waiting for me. I just didn't know. And it was absolutely terrifying. And then when I finished the auditions, because I'd only auditioned them once, I honestly didn't know whether they were any good or not. I just didn't know. And so there were times when I was making this thinking, why have I put myself through this? And I suppose it's because when I'm sitting on a show and people want my opinion, I don't want them to base that opinion on something I did 10 years ago or 20 years ago.

1:10:55because I'm not really interested in that. I'm only really interested in what I'm doing today and tomorrow. And to launch this idea of launching a search for a new band, and by the way, I think you have found the band, right? The band's created. Is it public yet? No. No, okay. So when will it be made public? I think round about maybe the end of the year, I'm thinking. Got it. Okay, so from everything I read, it was a struggle. It probably is a struggle, right, to find the right mix of, guys, right, to who can do this. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done. And with the pressure that this is all being documented.

1:11:35And if this goes wrong, this is going to be really, really embarrassing. But I think, you know, and I was thinking about this before, you know, we were having this conversation today, because I was thinking, you know, we're going to touch on this. And I do think, as much as I don't like thinking about the past, I do love that hustle I used to have to do on a daily basis. Because it was that, well, you don't survive. I mean, you know, I wasn't left any money. I didn't really make any money until I was in my 30s. I had to really kind of just hustle everything. And I really loved it. And so when I like to sometimes put myself back in that position where the odds are against me and can we make it work without any guarantee, it's kind of this weird thrill I still get.

1:12:30I don't know why, but I do. Simon, when you think about the journey you've taken, right, from dropping out and mailroom and here you are now, right? I mean, certainly one of the most well-known, if not the best-known kind of music executive in the world, maybe. How much of that do you attribute to how hard you worked and how much do you think had to do with just luck and circumstance? Everything. You have to have luck. I think you have to work hard. I mean, there's no question about that. um i mean you know what i called the hustle that was the hard work i mean you know you know when i was promoting that first record i would be you know driving hours to clubs all over the country every single night you know just to get my record in front of an audience it was the only way so the idea of not doing that meant failure so i just no one else was going to do it for me because I had no resources.

1:13:36So it was just that it was single swim. Yeah. You know, this whole path I've been on, it's worked because I've also had amazing people working with me. You know, I've just been very, very fortunate. And I do believe I've been a good mentor. And many people have been an amazing mentor to me as well. I really believe in that whole mentorship thing, You know, which is, you know, someone comes in without much experience and, you know, you hope that after working with you for, say, 10 years, they're going to go on and do wonderful things on their own. I get a real kick out of that. That's music mogul Simon Cowell.

1:14:20By the way, when it comes to musical recommendations, one of Simon's favorite influencers is his own son, who is now 11. I mean, he came to me about three years ago, really excited, came running into my door. Dad, you've got to hear this band. They're really good. And he plays me a One Direction song. I know this band. No, you don't. I said, well, yeah, I do. How do you know them? I said, well, I used to work with them. No, you didn't. And he must have found out afterwards. He went, seriously, you work with them? Yeah. But I was very flattered because the song still sounds good today. And that's what I think we've been talking a lot about today, is that I like to feel that the things I'm most proud of are the things that have lasted the longest.

1:15:12Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And please sign up for my newsletter at GuyRoz.com or on Substack. This episode was produced by Josh Lash with music composed by Ramtin Eriblui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research from Iman Ma 'ani. Our audio engineers were Patrick Murray and Jimmy Keely. Our production staff also includes Catherine Seifer, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, J.C. Howard, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, Carrie Thompson, Andrea Bruce, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This.

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