E403: Why the Best Investment Firms Stay Small | Sound Point Capital Founder

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30:54And get answers instantly. Use code invest at monarch.com to get your first year off Monarch Core half off at just$50. That's 50 % off your first year at monarch.com with code invest. But in order for the Knicks to win, everybody has to have their role. You've been scaling SoundPoint over 17 years to$46 billion. One of the challenges that founders of private asset firms or any firms in that regard is scaling culture. What have you learned about scaling culture as your organization gets bigger? It's a great question because when we first started and we were in a... How many people did you start with?

31:33Well, we started with one. We started with me. And then I brought on our CFO, and he was working at another credit firm that he was winding down. I don't think I paid him a salary for a year, so he was working, but I don't know if he was officially an employee. But let's say when we really got going, we started with four or five. And so when we had five people or seven people or 10 people, we were all in a tiny little hedge fund hotel. And it was, we were all audacious. We knew we were taking risks. It was exciting and it was scary. And we didn't have to define our culture because everybody knew that they had to change the paper and the printer and order supplies from Amazon.

32:16And we were entrepreneurs and it was great. And then we had some level of success. Then all of a sudden we woke up one day. I mean, today we have 210 employees, but we woke up one day and there were 50 employees. And I think in any organization, when you get to a certain size, you can't just assume that everybody knows what the culture is supposed to be. So we tried to articulate what the culture was, and we've talked a little bit about it. Team-oriented, everybody has else's back, no stabbing people in the back, being transparent and communicative. I mean, we want to disagree, but we want to disagree in an agreeable way.

32:53We certainly don't want a situation where people sit around a room and everybody yeses each other to death. And I want everybody at the firm to be able to look at me and say, Steve, I think you're making a mistake. But we actually had to sit, when we got to a certain scale, the leadership had to sit down and say, okay, what is our culture? We need to make sure we communicate that to others. So that's what we did. Every month or two, I have breakfast with all the new joiners at some point. And in every one of those breakfasts, I use that culture code anecdote about Danny Meyer and how he thinks about the culture he's creating.

33:31It's called folklore. Exactly. If I gave you 100 points, I made you assign it to stated culture versus actual culture behavior. What actually defines culture? what defines culture is you can tell people what you want your culture to be but if you don't back that up if we don't create the atmosphere that we just described that danny meyer anecdote then people will leave so we have to define the culture and then deliver that culture which means we have to hire the right people we have to make sure that people get rewarded for embodying that culture. And so I think what defines it is that you hire the right people, you have low attrition because people enjoy the culture and feel like they're part of something.

34:24But would you give like 10 % on the definition of the culture, 90 % on the delivery of the culture or slightly different percent? I think it's sort of 50-50. 50-50. Yeah, I think because - So actually going around and saying what culture you want is important. For sure. A hundred percent. It's not just the incentives. A hundred percent. Because if you don't, and by the way, this happens with almost every growing company, there's no rule book that says, okay, now that you have a certain number of employees or you're managing a certain amount of assets, now you have to tell people what your culture is.

35:00You sort of wake up one day and say, maybe not everybody, maybe it's not intuitive to everybody. That's surprising to me. I would think 80 % is how you manage, how you deliver incentives, and 20 % is basically what you talk about. But this makes me rethink the model in terms of how important it is to constantly communicate the culture. Yeah. And look, part of it is we have the great good fortune of growing. And one of the reasons I weight the defining and the communication of culture more than you might have thought was intuitive is because if every month there are new people coming on board, we need to make sure that we articulate it directly to them.

35:41And then we need to make sure that we remind the managers to define it and to embody that. And culture, if left to its own perils, has this half-life as you grow as an organization. And by the way, if we don't constantly communicate, and one of the things I've learned is whether it's culture, whether it's whatever it is that's important, one of the things we do at the end of the year, we ask people to do a 360-degree review or we ask people to do a self-evaluation. communication as part of our 360 degree review, we also ask them what we can do better as a firm. And without fail, a significant percentage of the comments are, we'd love to have more communication about what's going on, not just about what our culture is about, but what are we doing?

36:30How are we growing? What's our next thing? What can we do better? And so you can never, ever, ever, ever as a leader of a firm, whether it's an asset management firm or you're making widgets in the Midwest, you can never communicate enough to your employees. That's the one, I mean, I've learned many lessons over the last few decades, but that's one of the most profound lessons that I've heard. I might feel like I am communicating crisply to everybody I come in contact with at SoundPoint and it's never quite enough. So that's - You have an organization of 500 people and you've said the same thing seven times.

37:08And on average, five people have been there. You've only communicated to a small percentage of the organization. You feel like you've said it over and over again, but less than 10 % have actually heard it. Yeah. And look, as a result of that feedback, we have town halls on a regular basis. We try to make sure that we articulate to everybody what's going on. So nobody feels siloed. Nobody feels orphaned. And again, that's part of feeling like you're part of a cohesive culture and family and team. You've grown from a one-person shop to four to five people now to 210 employees today. Today, June 2026, what is your role as founder and CEO?

37:46What are your responsibilities? I put out fires every day. The Elon Musk, which is you deal with the hairiest problems, the problems that invariably come up and that no one else can solve. The reality is you become a little bit, as a founder, CEO, you become a little bit of a victim of your own success as a firm. Because when you get bigger, you have more employees. The fires that you need to put out, they expand exponentially. And so - Make it more complex. Because now there's multiple layers of people that can't handle them. That's exactly right. I'm obsessive about having a to-do list, but things get added every single day.

38:26So if I think about the three most important things, and look, I'm the CIO, and so I have veto rights over every trade that we do, and I sit on our investment committees, but we've done, one of the things I'm most proud of is we've brought in people to run our different businesses better than me at what they do, right? That's an important part. Is that humbling too, too, yeah? No, it was - Not even a little bit. not even a little bit over the past 10 years. And it wasn't the case 10 years ago. But when I find somebody to either build or take over or run a business line, and I know they're better and smarter and more knowledgeable than me, it makes me excited because it gives me leverage.

39:10You're a far greater man than I, because every time that happens to me, I both feel extremely excited and also like a little piece of me has died. I'm not saying it's not humbling, but in the long run, it's a good thing. And so I want to get back to your question. So if I think about the handful of things that are most important for me to do to continue the success of SoundPoint, one is just coming in and putting out fires and dealing with things every day. And I'll get back to the office after this podcast, there'll be a fire to put on and I can't tell you what it will be. I think the other, another really important thing, because we want to continue to do great things, is to be the keeper or the driver of the reality distortion field.

39:55If you think about people like Elon Musk and Steve Jobs, they pushed their employees in a way that people didn't even expect they could be pushed, right? So growing from$35 million, and that's million with an M, to$46 billion and doing it in a thoughtful way is audacious when you think about it. And I'm proud of what we've done, but there are times where I had to push people and have them exceed their own expectations. And then I think the third aspect that I spend a lot of time with is investors. And I think we're in a world today. Customers. Ultimately, who pays all your bills? At the end of the day, we serve at the pleasure of our LPs and our partners and our investors.

40:40Do you think a lot of your peers and other GPs understand that they are ultimately service providers for the LPs? Not everybody. We're serving at the pleasure of our LPs. the most important thing that we do, the most important thing that we produce is trust. They're trusting us. And by the way, these LPs, they do. But at the end of the day, it's a leap of faith, right? Because they are giving us capital that we will deploy in the future. So they have to believe that we will do the right thing. And at the end of the day, unless we remember it's their money we're managing, then if I were an allocator, I wouldn't be happy with somebody referring to their capital.

41:20A lot of people would say, well, my capital, LP capital, semantics. No, not semantics. This is extremely revealing on deep level of how GPs think about the situation. 100 % agree. After this podcast, you're going to go back to your office and you're going to have some fires, some unforeseen fires. How do you divide your time between working on these fires versus working on the business? Some are little brush fires and some are fires that could get out of control. So at the end of the day, it's my job to react to things. If they're potentially existential, then I need to react. But other than that, I, again, as I said, I'm obsessive about to-do lists and I try to prioritize the things.

41:59There are, I think one of the important things, and it's very difficult for people in my position to do, is to say, okay, well, if we're fighting fires and just dealing with things that are relevant today, if we don't allocate time to figuring out what we need to do to get to where we want to be in five years, whatever that is, right? It doesn't matter. If you don't step back and invest the time to help us become what we want to be, then we'll wake up in five years and say, where's the time gone? It's a timely question because we had a meeting recently with senior management where the conversation was primarily about what do we need to do today, but if we want to be here in five years, what are the pieces we need to put in place?

42:54And those things are long tail items, right? Those are things where you might need to spend months and months building something new or changing a paradigm. And that's hugely important. I would label these other projects as skunkworks, almost like R &D, which should have really different criteria for success. And it's almost like a baby, a newborn baby is being born. How do you structure that so that it survives within an organization? It's like everything. It has to be top down. And if I don't invest time and energy on developing the babies and focusing on the skunk works and making sure that whomever is responsible for that is held accountable, then those things don't get done.

43:41And so part of it is having a cadence where we don't just talk about it and forget about it. We talk about it and then we get back together three months later and say, okay, we prioritize these three things. they might not manifest themselves for five years, but where are we in that process? So that's on me to make sure that it is a priority and stays a priority. Thought a lot about this doing versus thinking. And the problem with these fires is that they compete for the exact same brain real estate as thinking long-term. And I discovered this because on the weekends I would go biking and I always had great new ideas.

44:22And I started to isolate the variables. Maybe I'm biking. Maybe it's that I'm outside. Like, why is it that every weekend I come up with a great idea or every other weekend? And then I ultimately realized that it's just the mind space, that I could create the same space during the week if I was extremely conscious about it. And then lo and behold, I would get great ideas during the week. But on the level of a brain, the thinking and the doing kind of competes for the same Well, for me, I like to play golf and I like to play squash. Those are sports or activities where you don't have as much time to think as you might if you're going on a long run or you're swimming or biking.

45:02So my quiet time where I can actually step back and think, I probably could do a better job of carving out three hours of time on a Thursday and saying, okay, my door's closed. this is the time where I'm going to really sort of come up with creative ideas that will maybe help shape or mold the future of the business. My quiet time tends to be on airplanes where I'm sitting on an airplane. Nobody can come into my office. Oftentimes no Wi-Fi. Exactly. And I'm happier when there's no Wi-Fi. So, and either fortunately or unfortunately, I'm on planes a lot. So I find that that's when I really get to do my reading.

45:39I get to do my thinking. And that's where I'm away from real-time firefighting mode and I'm into existential, futuristic, how do I continue this reality distortion field and continue to try to do audacious things and build a firm and make sure that we're not locked into short-termism, that we're focused on long-term ideas and the execution of those ideas. Clearly, some of these fires must come to your desk. You're the founder, CEO, and also CIO. So outside of these large fires, have you found ways to gain leverage on your time otherwise? The bigger fires find their way to my office. But I will tell you, and this goes hand in hand with the comment I made about finding people that are smarter than I am to run our investing businesses.

46:30is over the past few years, I've helped create leverage for myself by making sure that there are people that are really good at putting out those fires such that they don't get to my desk or get to my office. And in some cases, I don't know about them. And there are many cases where a few months after the fire is put out by not me, by somebody else, and I learned about the fact that the fire has been put out, which makes me happy. And so, and one of the things that is really important in an organization, especially as it grows, is I've done a better job in the last five or six years of making sure I have leverage and have people that are good firefighters.

47:10And now one of the things I'm focused on in the organization is to make sure that they have firefighters underneath them, people that can put out, and it's not, look, it's not just putting out fires, part of it is executing on the plan, right? And everybody who is senior and valuable at any organization needs to look for people who can provide them leverage because it will allow them to do their job better. Said another way, the perfect organization would have firefighters all the way down to the summer intern. This is the best summer intern firefighter. The analyst is the best firefighter and everybody gets leverage on the staff.

47:47And by the way, and maybe this is a different analogy than firefighting because look it's not growing an organization and creating excellence isn't just about putting out the fires quickly although that's important part of it is about doing things with intent right and so it's a coincidence that we have 10 or 12 interns every summer and i had lunch with our intern class and going back to your point about humbling i look at their resumes it's like oh my god they're you know i get better I couldn't, Steve Ketchum couldn't get hired as an intern at, you know, at SoundPoint, whatever, 35 years ago.

48:22But one of the things I said to all the interns is I said, look, I am obsessively focused on AI and how it can help us generate alpha for our investors, how it can streamline our business, increase our margins, do a better job of, you know, than human beings of parsing through data. and providing information to our investors and making them happy. And I said, even though I'm obsessed about it and use it in every aspect of my life and my career that I can, it's not intuitive to me because I'm of a certain age and the interns are 19, 20, 21. And I said, look, you'll be here for a couple of months, but one of the most important things that you can do, you're just learning about our business and you're figuring out what your tasks are.

49:15But everyone in this, we're sitting in our conference room, everybody in this conference room is more intuitive about AI than virtually anybody else at SoundPoint. So make your mark in the next few months and look at what we're doing and not doing with AI. So that's a great example. In this case, it's interns, but analysts, associates, VPs. How do you create the incentives for people lower in the organization to take risks and to develop these kind of competencies for the firm? Yeah. So part of it is making sure they know, and it's not just telling them the Danny Meyer story. Part of it is, and look, everybody - It goes back to this, the 50 % of like telling them that they're empowered to do it.

50:02Right. I don't know. I may have to go back and calibrate my percentages, but again, it feels to me like it's more than 20 % in terms of the communication. So part of it is a communication. And then there will be in every or younger employee's career, it will happen sooner rather than later. They will make that mistake. They'll drop that tray of plates and glasses. And if they get chastised for it, and if nobody helps them pick up those shards of glass, then they'll say, well, gosh, I heard Steve Ketchum at our new employee breakfast, tell me about all this great culture and everybody at SoundPoint has each other's back.

50:45Well, my manager, my peers don't have my back. So part of it is that first time they make a mistake, feeling that there is support, right? So that's hugely important. And I think in terms of incentives, there are financial incentives, but one of the things I tell our managers is that very few people in our business or any business leave their firm to get a 5 % or 10 % bump somewhere else. Some people are job offers. But at the end of the day, the reason people leave is because they feel that they don't have a career trajectory. Like, we're human beings. We're aspirational. Yes. People who are attracted to asset management or Wall Street are not in the business for altruistic reasons.

51:32They want to create wealth and they want to be able to pay for the kids' education and put a roof over their heads and enjoy it. In some ways, that's the purity of finances. A lot of times in Silicon Valley, they'll go around and say, I want to change the world. And in finance, there's a purity to it. By the way, that's okay. But in my experience, the people who leave, leave because they don't see career growth. They don't feel that their manager is thoughtfully managing their career and we're human beings. We're all aspirational. They want to essentially use their career to self-actualize, to constantly get better.

52:08A hundred percent. Been financed now for 35 years. What's compounded the most in your career? What's compounded the most? We talked about the Warren Buffett financial compounding, But I think that the relationships that I've developed have been really the compounding effect. And that could mean a lot of different things. I have investors and there were people that supported me when I had this audacious idea of starting a business in the depths of the great financial crisis with no track record. And so there are people that I had built trust with who made a bet on me. So that's an example. There are people who, and you really do know who your friends are.

52:45You learn who your friends are when you start a business. Another compounding effect was the relationships that I formed and the advice I got from people who had perhaps already done something like what I did. So I think it's being able to go back. And I think about my prior life, I was an investment banker. And your first handful of years as an investment banker, you're working 120 hours a week and sleeping under your desk and pulling all-nighters and eating bad Chinese food. And you form these bonds with the people that you work with. And to this day, if I need to get advice or ask for favors, six months ago, we got a great new deal for our core middle market lending business from somebody I had worked with 30 years ago who'd built a successful middle market private equity firm.

53:36So for me, overwhelmingly, the combining effect is the relationships that I built. Just think about investment banking almost as a tour of duty, almost like military. And the paradox there is that oftentimes you build these deep bonds with the people that you went to battle with, even though they may be completely different. And it's not just differently from a cultural or religious standpoint, but just differently even socially. They may have not been people you would be friends in high school or college. And, but because you go through this formative experience, they sometimes end up being some of the most valuable relationship.

54:10You're in the foxhole and you're, and again, even though, as you said, there could be in a different situation, there could be no commonality whatsoever. Um, that shared experience, which is profound when you're sleep deprived and when you're working hard and getting beat up by almost in this existential crisis where you don't know if you can make it. And you're constantly in. a fight or flight mode. And that shared experience is indelible. One of my working theories is that great organizations are not built on these huge leaps, but really on this daily operational improvement every day, just 1%.

54:50And it just compounds in such a dramatic way over several decades. Is that something that you found out at Soundpoint? Especially when you're starting out a business like this, if you don't want to be the proverbial person who's watching that pot of water boil, right, and staring at it. And the important thing, I think, in building a good organization, whether it's an asset manager or a widget company, is knowing that there is a process doing all the right things. And in asset management, one of the most important processes is raising capital. I can promise you that for a capital raising process, whether it's at SoundPoint or any other firm, for the person who runs a particular business, for the portfolio manager, that process always takes longer than expected.

55:36We might say, okay, we're going to go raise our third or fourth vintage fund. And our objective is to have our first close on September 1st. Well, guess what? It ends up happening November 30th. So the most important thing is that putting one foot in front of the other and trusting the process and doing all the right things and measuring yourself not every day on the end result because the end result, as I said, ends up getting pushed off, but knowing that you're doing all the right things from a process standpoint. So yeah, it is putting all the mundane work in doing the stuff that is behind the scenes and doing it well.

56:15And then you look back and say, okay, this was a great success. And it also ties into the comment about the success is driven by the team, not any individual. So everybody has to do their tasks. And some of the tasks are more unsung than others, right? And so I think one of the things that we really do try to do, we try to share successes. Everyone, and this goes back to my point about communicating or over-communicating, we have a good accomplishment, whether it's a great deal or a good fundraise. We want to make sure that we send a blast email out to everybody and celebrate that. And one of the things that we spend an inordinate amount of time on is making sure that every person who has contributed to that success is included in that email.

57:01That's a little thing, but that's an important thing in terms of building the culture. You now built this organization over 17 years. What are some of those learnings over 17 years in terms of how you would have accelerated the growth of your business? Certainly, our timing was good. We started at a time where credit was cheap and really interesting and there were great things to do. We started at a time where investors were disappointed in their incumbents. And so we tried to do things different and better, tried to be more flexible. I think that we are very deliberate now about who we hire and to make sure that they are a cultural fit.

57:45And look, there are other criteria. Obviously, cultural fit is important, but being smart and good and having a good track record at whatever your skill set is. I think one of the things that I've learned in the 17 or 18 years that we've been at it is if you make a hiring mistake, especially at a senior level, it can impact the entire ecosystem. So we take great pain, great care in making sure that we don't make hiring mistakes. And it means that the process is deliberate and thoughtful. How have you decreased the error rate when it comes to hiring? We spent a lot of time. One of the things I've learned is when you're interviewing somebody and you get towards the end of a process and you ask for recommendations, people that you can call to check up on a person.

58:38And no one in the history of interviewing has ever given a potential employer people that might say negative things about them. And so we have to be our own little private detective agency. And we don't ever want to put somebody in jeopardy in terms of having their employer know that they're looking for another job. But we dig really, really, really hard to make sure that we've hired the right person. And again, it's skill set. It's performance. If they're, for example, if they're a prospective investment team member, but at the end of the day, overwhelmingly, it's about cultural fit. And like I said, if you hire somebody that is a square peg in a round hole, it permeates and it affects everybody around them, everybody in the organization.

59:25And so that's when I look back and think about mistakes. And again, we're in the risk business. So of course, we're making investments. We try to minimize our mistakes, but mistakes will happen. but mistakes around hires are things that have a huge impact. I've interviewed hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of LPs to now over$10 trillion. And the number one thing that differentiates the top LPs from even the second and third quartile is the number of references that they do. Specifically off-list references, which is what you're talking about, which has references that are not given, but oftentimes the top LPs will do 10, 15, 20 references for a candidate because they realize that downstream of that decision, it's very annoying.

1:00:10Nobody wants to jump on 20 calls. AI and tools like that are making it slightly easier, but still it's extremely annoying. But the downstream consequences of a bad hire is if you think about it for 10 years, that's 3 ,650 days of mistake. You're 100 % right. And look, it can be cumbersome in making 20 calls instead of five calls. Again, not accepting the reference list that the person gives you, it does take time. But as you said, the manifestation of making the wrong hire can cost dozens and dozens of cumulative hours of HR and legal. And then sometimes there are costs associated with a termination, especially if it's bumpy.

1:00:53And so the return on that investment in time, and by the way, it's not just reference checks. I think it's, we try to be creative about approaching the interview process. One of the things we try to do is to say, okay, well, you know, this person will focus on whether the person has a good cultural fit. This other person will focus on whether they're a good intellectual fit. Everybody has their own. It allows them to be more precise in their interviews. Exactly right. And look, the other thing that we try to do, and it's the airplane test is important, right? Like we want to hire people who you'd want to be on a transatlantic flight with sitting next to, and you wouldn't be unhappy to be spending five hours stuck sitting next to on a plane with.

1:01:40And so that means it's not just the reference calls, it's investing the time to have lunches and dinners and breakfasts and drinks and making sure that they meet a bunch of people. Because at some point, if there's something just a little bit off, oftentimes you see that in a social setting. So investing that time is important, especially because we care about culture as much as we do. If you go back 35 years ago and give yourself one timeless piece of advice, what would that be? The advice I would give to young Steve Ketchum is if you're feeling, and I always think even from a young age, I felt entrepreneurial that I wanted to sort of take some risk and create my own culture and build something.

1:02:25And so I think the advice I would give to my younger self is if that's who you are and that's what you want to do, then do it and do it earlier. And a lot of friends who have built businesses, many in the asset management business, but also other businesses as well. There's not one person who I know who did what I've done, built a business, who hasn't said, if I knew how much fun this would be or this has been and how challenging and exciting and intellectually challenging it would be, I would have done it earlier. So that's the advice I give to my young self. Steve this has been an absolute masterclass I really enjoyed this thanks so much for taking time thanks so much for having me David