E416: Ares Investor on Data Centers, Investing Moats & Lessons Learned

24:14You focus on the performance, capital comes. Is that where you focus your team? How do you deploy this guy? Is that kind of the game on the board? And so in the end, you have to focus on the performance. You have to focus on driving those returns. Frankly, you have to focus on the downside protection because we are accredited investors. If you do that, the other parts happen. If you create really good investors that are sitting there doing downside protection with upside optionality, the other parts of it come to you. How do you go about motivating people in finance that are not primarily driven by money?

24:44If you look at ours portion of it, the amazing thing is we've already accrued with our Pathfinder family of funds over$50 million to charity. And if we do what we could do, it could be hundreds of millions of dollars that will end up going to philanthropy just by performing what we do. And the reason I say that is it's interesting to the non-money part of it. Because I look at it as for me, I did it so I wouldn't retire. I've always loved investing. I've loved the learning curve. I've loved the other portions of it. It took till my late 20s to realize this was my calling was to be an investor.

25:16So I stopped reading fiction. I only started reading nonfiction, history and finance and other books. And I kind of evolved from that standpoint. But I will say that when you look at that from a motivation standpoint, the other part of it is you have to have a reason you're doing it. And in the end, it does go to, I'd already set it up with my wife and I years ago that we're going to give all of it to philanthropy across that. But when I took that step back, I took that year off. I did this trip to India with Path Global Health. I joined their board. I'd been giving money to them for a while. I'd been doing money across global health and education.

25:54When I took that step back and got real perspective, when you're sitting in a slum in Jharavi in Mumbai, You get real perspective on how lucky we all are to even be able to do what we do and to be able to be born where we're born and all of those things that got us. Because anybody who has success, if they're not honest with themselves and they don't say that a lot of it was luck, they're wrong. We're all very lucky. But then there has to be this, why am I doing this? What am I driving? And so for me, it was my personal motivation of, hey, I get to do what I love to do on investing, but have the reason I'm doing it, which is why I'll never retire.

26:29Like I know why I'm doing it. I know what I'm doing for. And frankly, when I had the idea, I was like, I'm going to regret this the rest of my entire life if I don't do this. Because once that idea popped in my head, I was like, this is something that will give me the reason I'm doing it. I never imagined, frankly, we'd be already where we are. My dream was much lower than where we already are, which is the amazing part. And when I give, frankly, I've had issues of internalizing it and appreciating the giving. how do you build that connection with the giving that allows you to get more meaning from it so we have committees we have groups that are done and it's all done on volunteers we do have some full time people coming on that are doing some of it also but that team is volunteering their time we do do trips in country we do go see the work that's actually getting done but the coolest part how critical is that it's very critical because i look at it as you don't know until you can touch it and see it.

27:24Because it still feels not transactional, but it feels like just a number. I agree. And here's the thing. When we talk about it on team, the tens of millions of dollars, the hundreds of million dollars, when you actually drive it back to a transaction, the cool thing about what we've done with the Pathfinder Family of Funds and then the broader initiative on the industry initiative called Promote Giving, where we've gotten now 15 other groups to give 5 % of their promote to philanthropy and they get to drive it wherever they want to drive it. The cool thing is it's just math. When you drive it not to the high level, but you drive it to, we just did this investment.

27:59And if this investment drives the moik that we said it was going to drive, here's the dollars that we'll generate. When you tell the team that just worked on that deal, especially when we tell other people, counterparties that we just did the deal with, they're like, that's amazing. A million dollars will go to charity from this one large transaction we did. That's pretty cool. And for me, at least a few times a week, I end up getting on a call with a charity, with a philanthropy, somebody we've done a grant with or we're talking to, and the team joins on those calls. Nothing fuels you more. You know why you're doing it, because otherwise you go through the roller coaster of the deal business, right?

28:34And altruism aside, on a net-net basis, do you feel that you're financially better off giving? I'll say two things. One is, no matter what your background is, no matter what you grew up, whether you believe in religion or don't believe religion and other pieces of it. Here's my basic in life. There's only three things that matter. In the end of life, it's your close friends and family. Your LinkedIn contacts go bye-bye. Growing up, I thought managing money meant paying bills and balancing a checkbook. But as you know, that is only a small piece of the financial puzzle. Managing your money takes more than just checking your bank account every once in a while.

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31:14Whether you're selling lattes, cutting hair, running a boutique, or managing a service business, Square helps you run your business without running yourself into the ground. I was actually thinking about this the other day when I stopped by a local cafe here. They use Square and everything just works. Check out as fast, receipts are instant. Sometimes I even get loyalty rewards automatically. There's something about businesses that use Square. They just feel more put together. The experience is smoother for them and it's smoother for me as a customer. Square makes it easy to sell wherever your customers are, in-store, online, on your phone, or even at pop-ups, and everything stays synced in real time.

31:45You can track sales, manage inventory, book appointments, and see reports instantly, whether you're in your shop or on the go. And when you make a sale, you don't have to wait days to get paid. Square gives you fast access to your earnings through Square checking. They also have built-in tools like loyalty and marketing, so your best customers keep coming back. And right now, you can get up to$200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com slash go slash how I invest. That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash go slash how I invest. With Square, you get all the tools to run your business with none of the contracts or complexity.

32:14Run your business smarter with Square. Get started today. Right? The second thing is your experiences. The cars and the houses don't matter. It's the memories, right? It's what did you do? So it means - Although sometimes those are in your houses. Sometimes. But it goes - Less often in the cars. It goes to go on the trip, right? Go experience. Experiences matter more than goods in that part. The third is giving back. And it doesn't have to be philanthropy. It can be parenting. It can be teaching. It can be mentoring. I realized I've been an adjunct professor at Emory's MBA, and I've done stuff at NYU, and I've done stuff at Northeastern.

32:48I realized I considered being a teacher, being a professor. And I realized I actually don't like teaching. I like mentoring, right? I like the mentoring part. You like when people apply it. I like people who apply it, and I don't really want to grade papers. But then the other side on giving back is it can be philanthropy. It can be giving time. It can be giving money. But otherwise, why the hell are we here? Jeremy Collar, who's one of our signatories on Promote Giving from Collar Capital, he has a better version of this, which is he says 95-year-old self. He says, I negotiated some extra time.

33:18When you're 95, you want to be able to look at two things. One is your 13-year-old self proud of what you did. And then the other is when you look back at the 95, are you proud of what you did on the look back? So look forward, look back as a 13-year-old self in the 95. And I think that really is what matters in life when we get down to it. And I think everybody realizes it. Sometimes people just realize it too late in life. The second part is less altruistic, right? The less altruistic side is it does mean you stand for something. So in the end, if you think of fundraising, fundraising in many ways is do I think you're really good at what you do?

33:55and are you going to drive great returns? And do I believe that you're going to drive the performance and the alpha that I want you to? The second part of fundraising, though, is do I trust the person? Do I trust the team? Also, am I aligned with you? Are you going to make money when I make money? And how much do you believe in your own? How much does the promote matter to you? That's where the alignment is so good, which is, so from a trust standpoint, the thing that's probably missed is if we have 15 signatories of promote giving now, and we built this community, we built this collaboration, we built this network of those who have shared purpose, who are all looking to give at least 5 % of their promote of a single fund or fund series.

34:34I've done over transactions with those parties because it's a different relationship you formed with them. You're now having high level conversations and saying, wait a minute, why don't we work together on this? I've done deals with parties where we won the transaction because in the end, if I have the same bid as you and we're the exact same cost, who would you rather partner with? Wouldn't you rather partner with the person that you think actually has shared purpose and is looking to do what you want to do? So there is a benefit to it. There is a branding portion to it that kind of does that.

35:03And I'm also wondering from the self-motivation. That's where I'm thinking about it. Does it motivate you more than 5 % so that it ends up being? I think it motivates you more because I think the thing that's really important that's often missed is there's no sacrificing of returns. There's no sacrificing of anything. You're actually fully dual purpose. So what I mean by that is, and what's often missed in our industry, is what is our real purpose? We're driving returns. We're driving alpha to pensions, to sovereign wealth funds, to insurance and others. So what are we really doing? We're driving retirements.

35:35We're driving health. We're driving education. That's who our investors are on the institutional side and even on the retail side. That's often missed. We remind our team of that all the time. So that's one purpose. The second purpose, though, is when we drive those highest returns to those investors, we're driving the biggest dollars to philanthropy as well as to the team. So the team is winning, obviously, because they're participating in a long-term incentive in the promote and others. You've used this term Kaizen multiple times in an interview. Kaizen is the self-improvement concept, a Japanese word for just constant improvement.

36:08One of my theories on how great organizations are built are not these huge one or two events. It's this constant improvement day by day and the most minute and simple things that just compounds over a year, over decades. How would you further refine that model? I think it's everybody's growth as an investor. Like it does go to the building blocks of math I mentioned earlier, which is that building blocks, you have to kind of learn and you have to kind of do it. But it also goes to infrastructure. Like we've been, if you look at asset-based finance, we have a 15-year track record. That's 15 years of building infrastructure.

36:40How do you build infrastructure? You put your fingers in dikes, right? You find mistakes and you fix them. So in the end, you can't have somebody who's just come into a space for two or three years. They're still figuring out where the holes are. They're still trying to do that. They're still learning that. It's the same thing as investors. We have nevers. We have things that we will never do, and we list them publicly. We have industries, not because they're horrible investments to do, because life's too short. And frankly, all of those lessons learned came from me and others learning those lessons, taking the pain and saying, you know what?

37:09There's better places to make investments. because relative value is just supply and demand. Relative value is going and finding those areas where you can play that others can't because of scale, because you can bring flexible capital, because all capital in this world is in a box. Banks have a box. Insurance has a box. It has to be IG or others. Even funds have a box. I would argue 95 % of funds or more that exists in the world are very defined on their box. They can do real estate in this region. They can do private equity in this sector. They can do, even within credit, you'll have relatively defined boxes.

37:44The ability to play in the gaps, the ability to not have that box is something that really actually just makes you a dramatically better investor. I love this analogy of finding the holes and plugging them. One of my favorite philosophers is Karl Popper. He has this theory of falsification, which is a theory on how people learn things. They don't actually learn things from the bottoms up, but learn it from the top down. You think that you know something and then you make a mistake and you further refine your model more and more. And that's why the 10 ,000 hour rule. So I go to become a credit investor.

38:17I kind of know what the general ideas are. And then I see all these like nuances. And then over decades, you get better and better through making mistakes. Falsification is just a fancy word for mistakes. Is that how you've seen people learn and get better at their craft? Yeah. And what we're really trying to do is we're trying to expedite their growth, right? I call it the credit DNA, right? It really is how do you form their credit DNA and how do you help them learn from what we've learned on an earlier basis? It's why we have open ICs. Everybody's invited to the IC. We have weekly whiteboarding sessions with a small group of people, because if you do whiteboarding with too many people, it kind of becomes not that productive, where we're just strategizing across sectors and relative value and other things.

39:03We update our relative value. We have like in-focus, not-in-focus monitoring that we update on a monthly basis. We do junior ICs where they kick us out of the room so they can ask all the questions they don't want to ask in front of their boss. They can have a real discussion. So you're the junior deal person that worked on the transaction. They get to grill you on all those questions so they can kind of learn without kind of having that scrutiny piece of it. We do our lessons learned across that. We do what we call Pathfinder Dinner Series, where we bring 10 to 12 really smart people into a room with no agenda, just kind of an idea of let's have one conversation.

39:36conversation, not this. I talked to the person on my right and my left one conversation around the room and it's almost a virtual whiteboard. All of that is to create a DNA. All of that is to kind of create that where you're learning from that. And everybody kind of ends up having that ability to kind of learn together. But what it really does is if you've worked with us for five, six, seven years, you're like somebody else who has been doing it for 30 years because the transactions you've worked on, the variety of industries, the types of asset classes, but then also that environment. Because I think so often, especially if you go to the street and the dealers and others, it's like you work on this, right?

40:15You work on that one thing and that's what you do. We try purposely not to expertise at the junior level. We let them get a lot of experiences and a lot of things. And then as they go to that next level, they start focusing a little bit more on certain sectors versus others. And then they go to the next level, then they're expertized in a couple things and they're more focused on those, but they kind of find their path. We want them to get that full base because - What's the value in that? Well, the value in that is, and I've had people who have 25 years experience, they've joined us as partners and they've come on and they said, I thought I learned everything.

40:47I realized how little I know now. I was very lucky in my career that I always had this very wide set of experiences. I was able to invest across real estate and corporates and asset base, you name it, I invested across it just because luck, frankly. But what happens is the problem is if you have somebody who, say, a residential mortgage investor, and that's what they know better than anybody else, and they're looking at it and they're like, this is the best relative value, the most overused term in the world, relative value. We use it all the time also. But relative value can't be seen in that monolithic sort of way.

41:21Because if you look at it from that standpoint, you're looking at relative value with blinders on. You're sitting there going, well, how is most capital raised? Even if you go back seven, eight years ago in asset-based finance, you have a litigation finance fund. You'd have an aircraft leasing fund. You'd have all these funds. Most people have now gone to what we've done, which is a bigger pool of capital and flexible to go across. Because what happens is if you look at that, and they might be right, that is absolutely the best relative value. But then if you compare it to two or three things over here, you'd say, why the hell would I do that if I can do this?

41:53This does not stand up with regards to the downside protection and the contractual returns I'm going to get on a relative value basis. Whereas if anybody was taking a step back and looking at it across a whole bunch of sectors, you go, wow, that's kind of crazy. If you think about what you're getting paid on an attached, detached basis, if you think about what you're getting paid on an implied downside, you're just not getting paid for the risk. And so if you train people to have all those experiences, they start seeing real relative value. They start seeing that ability to kind of look across those asset classes.

42:25As someone who's developing talent, younger talent, you talked about these younger ICs. How do you balance wanting to have your younger talent learn with also trying to have them avoid as many mistakes as possible? Teams. I mean, you always have deal teams. So you always have a multi-layered deal team with regards to working on it. So they might have the flexibility to propose deals or propose structures, but they're not necessarily signing off in their own work. I would say early on in a career and even in your 20s, you're generally just working on a transaction. So you're not proposing transactions at that stage.

42:59You're just working on them and you're kind of going through. It's like in every career. At the beginning, you're task oriented. I'm dealing with this with my own kid. At the beginning, you do the thing that they told you to do. And then eventually, you're kind of running the entire show, but you're not creating anything. You're not a chef yet. You're just sitting there executing your line cook, right? Saying, I'm going to do this thing and I'm going to do this. As you develop is where you start to become a chef and you start to look at it on the broader picture and go through. I've been thinking about this thing that you said earlier around putting down your learnings.

43:30Yeah. Talk to me about that. How do you operationalize that internally? The old red and black notebooks that we've all had. I got hundreds of them. And I think it's one of the, I only started. Pen and paper. Pen and paper. I really do believe that. I think that I'm a visual learner, but if I visual learn and I write things down, then it does it. But not writing down everything. It's not journaling for journaling purposes. It's not writing notes for notes purposes. It's the older I get, the more I'm doing this. As old as I look, I'm 50. I've had this silver head hair for 20 years. But the thing that's interesting is the older I get, the more I realize it's those broad themes.

44:05It is. If you think of Munger and you think of Buffett and you think of those things, you think of those sayings. Well, there's a lot of truth to them. It is those big picture things. I'll give you one great example. And this is something I think every investor should do, whether you're an LP or a GP. And this is something we only started doing five years ago. So I've been investing now since 1997, so almost 30 years. And the thing I started doing only five years ago was what we call visualize the cash flows. It's one of our top lessons learned, but what we did was every single memo now has the same page in it.

44:39The part of the page that's called visualize the cash flows is this. If you take any investment and you show the base case or you show your underwriting, you show your scenarios of how you get your cash flows over the life of the investment, how much of that is contractual? How much of its terminal value? And how does it come in? Does it come in front loaded like this? Does it come in episodic like this? Does it come in like this in terminal value? If you look at the donut chart, how much the percentage is contractual? how much is terminal value? That simple analogy has so much meaning because what you realize is that in investing often, we sit there and we don't realize all of our value is coming from terminal value.

45:20So what we're looking for is where can we get contractual cash flows? Where can we get that money back? Because if I'm in venture, if I'm in private equity, and if I'm in things, investments that are very big terminal value driven, it means the V is the only thing that matters, right? That valuation, that multiple, which is very dependent on rates and it's very dependent on multiples, it's very dependent on markets. The more I can get that's a combination of contractual with terminal value, the better downside protection I really have. Because I think often we lie to ourselves that that value is there.

45:51But if in the end, all I did was get money back at the end from terminal value, I didn't actually do that. I'm very, very dependent on that V and the underlying components of V. Data visualization is so underrated for a couple aspects. One is even if you're Einstein, if your entire team is the smartest people in the world, it's just cognitively less expensive to see something visually than it is to see a long memo. And secondly, perhaps downstream of it being less cognitively expensive, it becomes easier to visualize data on a page. And it becomes, to your point, extremely obvious. Well, why is all the cash flow coming in the last year?

46:29Clearly, yes, there's like 5 % coming in every year, but it forces you to confront reality in a way that a graph or a memo is not able to do. That's the thing. We get lost in Excel. We get lost in the models. We get lost in the pieces. And we miss that portion of where am I really? The other visual we do is I think this is where people in structured finance or ABS are generally better at risk because risk isn't linear. We like to think of it that way sometimes, but it's really not. It's really exponential. And in ABS or structured, you have different tranches of ratings and you have different tranches of risk.

47:06And so you think of risk that way. Whereas if you go to other areas, they're not necessarily thinking about where they are on attached, detached. They're not thinking about where they are in the cap stack. And so in the end, I'll use a simple example. We can all understand that if I only have a 5 % equity check and I'm massively leveraged, I better be getting huge returns because I'm taking huge risk on the company. If I have a 50 % equity check, then clearly I'm taking much less. But the problem is the market doesn't solve for that. Whether the check is a 5 % equity check or a 30 % equity check or a 50 % equity check, they're all solving for the return.

47:42They're not looking about what the risk is they're really taking. Well, the same thing comes from the credit side of it. If in the end, I'm 0 to 50, 50 % advance on the underlying value, and I decide that, okay, I'm going to get a 0 % return on that underlying investment, that's very different than if I'm 0 to 70. But it prices the same in the market. The market price is linear, honestly, because they're sitting there pricing to the box that they end up being. And so what we do is one of the other things we do is we always show the cap stack, but we show attach, detach of the securities and where we're playing.

48:18Because in one second, you can look at that visual and you can see where you really are on risk. And then you can argue over the V, you know, with regards to that valuation, but you at least know where you are. Because often it's so easy to get lost in looking at the output. You're getting lost on what's the returns I'm making, where's this underlying piece. And if you look at that visual, you're like, oh my gosh, we're so deep. or the other side, you're looking and you're going, oh my gosh, we're basically sitting here in this crazy safe investment with the last pieces maybe got a little bit of risk.

48:49So if you think of like a MEZ or second lean, as an example, if I have my last dollar on a MEZ or second lean is at 6X times EBITDA and I have another one that's 6X times, but one starts at two and one starts at five, the market prices those within 50 basis of each other. One is dramatically safer if they're the same thing. They're oversimplifying. They're oversimplifying because you have to see that visual. You have to see that visualization with regards to where your real risk is and what your unit of risk is. You have to think of everything on that unit of risk. You've now been investing for nearly 30 years.

49:27If you could go back to the day before you started as an investor and you could give yourself one timeless piece of advice, what would that be? I'd say patience. in the end it's too easy to focus on the next destination as opposed to enjoying the ride and seeing how it works i even got this advice and i totally ignored it when i was about 25 which was one of my old mentors said in the end you're going to be really successful you're going to do really well you just you need to get to this i'm like yeah that's just your way of paying me less so you're at that stage of life i use that analogy to talk to people now from the standpoint of everybody focuses on two numbers.

50:05They focus on the number they're getting paid that year, and they focus on their net worth. That's the things that people naturally focus on. I would argue, though, the thing that everybody who's 25 especially, because you have all of those years of compounding in front of you from your own personal net worth as well as your own personal growth as an investor, as a person, as an individual, is what you should be focusing is on your own intellectual property value, which means where are you working? Who are you working with? What experiences are you getting? Who is your mentor? What growth is it?

50:39Where can I go to a place where I can expand and grow? Because in the end, there's two numbers. There's the number you're getting paid today and there's the number I see on your head. And the number on your head is your intellectual property value. And if you think about it in life, we're always getting paid this, but in the end, we finally catch up to what our IP value may be. And then in the near the end, you're probably getting overpaid for it, right? From that standpoint, that's the cycle of life. But what that experience is, why that person, we know they're going to be making it a lot of money in the future and they're going to get everything they want to if they focus on the IP value.

51:14Well, I'll still see some people who make just the dumbest career decisions because they go to that next job for$30 ,000 to go get a bonus or they go to this other thing because of a title promotion. And you know what they've done? They've often destroyed their IP value. And so I think the patience is so important because as a 25-year-old, I think we focus too much today in this world of AI, of social media, on those that have these crazy success stories that come out of nowhere. To be very clear, that is somebody who went to Vegas and they bet on a single number in roulette five times in a row and it hit.

51:51For every story we talk about, there's 99 stories where the person just went bust. And then it gets distributed to 8 billion people. So that's why you see so much of it, because the TAM is every single human being. Well, and I think that what happens is we focus on the one, the guy who hit the roulette number five times in a row. But in the end, if you focus on your career and your experiences and you do those things, you're going to end up being successful because you have time. That compounding of your intellectual property value is what's going to lead you to your success if you just devote yourself to kind of taking that right path.

52:26And it will take care of itself over time. Those two numbers, salary and net worth, is such a good example of Goodhart's law, which is we optimize on the things that are quantified. Yeah. It could be framed as a bias. It could be summed up as you optimize on things that are quantifiable and you undervalue the things that are not quantifiable. The way that I also give this advice is as quickly as possible, be around excellence. if you could see your gap between good and sometimes even very good and excellent in a space as soon as you could become aware you can't unsee the gap yeah i got so excited early on on the media side when i met jason calicanis i think it was in the first uh teen number of episodes and just that gap was so great or when i met eric anderson 16 years ago which has now started four billion dollar companies at that point he only had one billion dollar company in biotech but he was just so exceptional.

53:22I'm like, okay, this is world class. And just seeing world class as quickly as possible, if you could bring that to the beginning of your career, it's so valuable because part of the reason why people choose salary or title is because they don't actually know the opportunity cost. They don't know how mediocre their next position is because they haven't seen that gap yet. I think you also have the opposite problem, which is I think that we often and look at it as itself, right? And so they sit there and say, oh, my success is because of where they are. And they don't necessarily value the seat that they were in.

53:57They don't value like, in the end - This happens a lot in spin-outs. They don't realize how much the brand - They don't realize how much the brand and how much that portion was there. Because in the end, it kind of goes to, if you have the greatest investment returns in the world and you're running a$50 million fund, you're only getting paid so much. In the end, there is a scale portion of it that ends up happening. and what happens is that advantage of brand, that advantage of scale, that advantage of that seat you were in, that seat gives you the experiences, that seat gives you that opportunity, it gives you that flywheel, right, that it kind of creates that output and I think often people look at it as I'm that seat as opposed to looking at that team concept and where you end up sitting.

54:37I took a lot of time thinking about where I was gonna go next after my, as I call it, sabbatical And I chose Aries because I thought they were going to win because of what I thought was going to be a consolidation in the industry. And I thought that there would continue to see that because I was a student of history and a student of finance. To me, those two things are totally intertwined with each other. And if you look at it, consolidation has always occurred. This evolution has always occurred. And frankly, I think what we underestimate, I often overuse Kaizen. Sometimes you should use Darwinism.

55:11in the end, it does go to the world's going to continue to develop and you have to continue to evolve and you have to continue to improve. And you need to be a place that's flexible and ability to improve and kind of take advantage of that. And so that I think is so important to your comment of it really is really understanding that it is building that IP. And then the rest of life is amortizing that IP, right? It's getting the value out of what you've created because of those experiences. And I fully know that we'll have people that will leave our team and they'll go on. And I think they'll go on to do amazing things.

55:44But that is something that you're hoping you can keep them as long as you can. You can hope they're growing. But you also have to be proud of that. You have to be proud of that ability and what they've been able to do. And I think that there are special places. I try to tell a team like this isn't normal. Like we've had success. We've continue to grow, appreciate it because you're going to remember these experiences the rest of your life from that standpoint. I was at a startup in 1998 to 2000 for the top five of us ended up running Fortress for a decade plus. The group was 30 people. One of the guys who didn't join us ended up being the CFO of Wells Fargo.

56:22I still look back and we all talk together. We all get together. We all have those shared experiences across that. And at the time it was just a grind because we were working so hard, but there was a lot of laughter. There was a lot of fun and you don't realize how much it formed you. That set of experiences had so much impact on my life and so much impact on others. Well, Joel, I think I only got through about 20 % of my questions. This has been an absolute masterclass. Thanks so much for jumping on. No, thank you for having me. I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thanks very much. If you enjoyed this conversation, want to hear more conversations with many of the world's leading investors, subscribe below.