Ep. 429: Building on Tradition with Bill Curtis and Russell Windham

30:27And so it's all in the book and you can see that if you know what you're looking at. But we spent five years working on that and they've lived in it and they entertain in it and have a whole soulful reason why they did that. They want to live in Houston and occupy some great house and make sure it goes on to the next generation of use. And it was just loads of fun for me to be involved with such energy. I loved how it's such a rectilinear house. It's very boxy. And yet they have so many curvilinear lines as well, both in those repeating round windows, but also in the furniture. And I loved seeing that because I think sometimes those rectilinear lines feel so harsh and it kind of balances.

31:17Is that something that y 'all were adding, like some of the features in there or was a lot of that already there? The round windows you refer to were there, but there were more of them than they originally were. So we sort of edited them and moved them around a little bit to make them kind of be more consistent with what might have been. And she also didn't want to take it back to a neutral point the way it always was. We left a few idiosyncrasies within the house that give it a little bit more energy and life than maybe the strict way that Mr. Newhouse had done it. But, yeah, we had opportunities to insert architecturally some of that forms of the art that we were seeing, particularly in the swimming pool and the indoor swimming pool and the hot and the cold plunge pools and things like that.

32:04But they're very sculptural and almost from another continent in a way. Something amazing. I think that's one of the big things that Bill and the team really ended up over it to alter the place. While respecting the architecture, they completely redid the landscape and made it far more engaging. And then by adding those outbuildings, it just draws you out into the landscape. And that really wasn't fully considered or realized originally. It was in a more modest way and probably appropriate for the time. Pat Fleming, who was Houston's favorite sun landscape architect who did Biobend, did the original garden.

32:51And we engaged with Reed Hildebrand out of Boston to do a more contemporary garden that was consistent with the aesthetic of a modernist house. but they looked a lot at the work of Pat Fleming and how particularly those grass steps that it kind of spew off the back of the house that you'll see in the book. But it was a real team effort of a lot of different people coming together. Why does the fountain by the front door make me nervous? I'm like, I'm going to fall in. Don't give me too much wine. I might have to swim. Well, yeah, you know, there has been consideration of taking that fountain apart and putting it back together in a way that feels a little bit more visually safe.

33:35But I think there's some stepping stones across a water pool is what's being referred to here. So you have to kind of get your gait right and then you're fine. That was there or? No, it was built. We built that. That's so cool. Amazing. It really sets the tone for the like more whimsical decor inside. You know, not everyone is willing to put in a fountain. Would you call that a fountain? What is it? Like a reflecting pool? Yeah, well, it's a little bit of a rill where water falls into a pool. But in plan, if you look at it carefully, it fills a corner of the house the way the pool and the backyard fills between the volumes.

34:16So it's consistent with the original idea. It's just a little bit more of a theatrical way to get into the house. if not dangerous. Was that the client's idea or is that your idea? Well, those would be conversations that we would have been engaged in, but really read Hildebrand's design work there is what you're looking at. Got it. Yep. Incredible. And that was part of an overall larger landscape plan that had consistent details and consistent kind of level of thought process. And you see that around the whole site. Like, was the plan the same from the beginning or did it evolve? throughout the five years, I guess.

34:54The house is so rigorous. We didn't add on to it and change its form. So we worked within the context of it, with the exception of the building where the swimming pools are that Russell was mentioning and these outbuildings. One of the outbuildings was there. We just kind of took it down and put it back up in a different, in a more permanent fashion. But Reed Hildbrand was brought in pretty early on. One of the primary things there was the entry to the house was located at a corner, which has now become dangerous. It wasn't in 1955 feeding traffic at one. So they moved the drive system in and made it much more of an estate kind of entry sequence and something a little bit more consistent with the lazy lane that we know today with grand houses and sort of proper entries and sequences, ritualistic sequences to the front door.

35:38Yeah. It's really fabulous. Yeah. Very unique. Well, I wish I knew more about the art. I mean, it's fascinating to me. Some of it I knew. but I wish I had known what was coming. I would have been even more excited about it. Like the ceiling in the living room is tree limbs, in effect, with flowers and things growing on them, and it's just amazing. And, you know, for Russell and I, normally people go, well, they're not going to like that. But I actually do. I think everything is so consistently rendered, whether it's the furniture or the way the books are held on the wall or the Art Deco glass bar or the mirrored bar, whatever.

36:24It's also kind of consistently thought about at a level of high expectation of idea that it's easy to go along with this and not be judgmental about anything of it because it's just, and you know that the art's good. And it's done by people who are well-respected. So I felt like we were in good company. I was proud to be there with Reed Hildebrand. and the artist and uh and summer thornton summer thornton yeah and studio sham sherry was originally involved well the other thing that i was so and we didn't really touch on this yet but um there's such a like sense of humor in so many of your projects which i love um you know because you're you have such a classical sensibility but there's definitely a lightness.

37:13I mean, the pub was a great example that was so fun. And it was funny because I was reading, you know, each, I guess, project starts with a drawing and a little blurb. And so I was reading the blurb about the pub and kind of like, huh, I don't know about this. And then I saw the pictures and it was a really just kind of wow moment and would be so fun to happen upon if I We're golfing there. Well, it's also the personality that Connie is a loud personality. You know, it just fits, you know. I think we've worked on five projects for them, including a new house that we're doing in Seaside, which is behind their current house.

38:01So we will have accomplished the first family compound in Seaside as a newly built scenario based on Rhode Island coastal architecture. But the pub, same sort of thing. They, you read the story, but they are just Livewire clients. I think the word in the book that Lucy wrote was frequent flyer clients. And I love that part because they are and they always bring big ideas. and we got a chance to kind of play with that little tiny room. And people do come off the golf course and go into the pub and check it out and write a note or have a beer off the tap or whatever it is. And they're wide open enough to let that happen and not be worried about it.

38:48But it was also the approach and, you know, like even the gait. And it was just so charming from the outside that I imagine it really adds to the golf course. just visually in addition to being fun. It's there and not there. I mean, it's very much the architecture of the house we did years ago for them. Those scale, the scale of that house, the proportions of it, its details, et cetera, are the basic volume of the pub. And so it does blend in and it fits in. But then the gates announce themselves as kind of members only, tongue in cheek. And you kind of ascend some steps and you know that you're encroaching not only across a gate for members only, but you're ascending some steps.

39:32You're crossing into the social realm of someone else's property. And then you get to this door that's got some little tiny window that you can't really see through and a door knocker that's a golf ball. Anyway, and then when you walk in it, it is, oh, wow. It just feels like you're in a little bit of Scotland, frankly. Well, I think one of the other things that works for you, You're noticing out there that houses generally are built to a setback, but that little building, you're talking about, does it belong to the golf course or that house because it's pushed out? So it's that little interruption of the norm that gives that moment of question, which I think that sets off the adventure of getting to experience.

40:22Okay, I normally wouldn't ask a question about zoning, but how did they get that built in the setback? Was that… Is it considered an outbuilding? Yeah, like was there a limitation that they weren't allowed to build there or another would be here in Atlanta? Yeah, we were allowed to build there. But it doesn't, it's because it's a freestanding building, which was allowed, it comes off as being independent. And the ambiguity where the golf course stops and starts is Russell's comment. It feels like it could be either or. Yeah, I don't remember the de-restrictions there back in River Oaks. There's a restriction for the footprint and the make-ups.

41:05If you detach a building intended for a garage, it can be pushed further back. If it's attached, it can't. So that's another game you play, you know, trying to make the most of the stuff. Could you walk us through the Wallaceville farm? I just loved the, you know, the history in that one. And I thought that was such a fun one for people to look up to. You know, it's an interesting one. It is on a generous site. I think Lucy wrote this, but one of the big trees out front, is documenting whenever the Texans caught Santa Anna, that's where they held them until St. Justin. So that's in their flat yard.

41:51So, you know, that's pretty sacred ground to work with. It was this great house, and the elder had grown up there his entire childhood, and now his family is living there. And, you know, they wanted to make it a whole, you know, help set contemporary needs. So we redid the inside of the house. But there were also two houses just out on the property. So we brought them in towards back as guest house and a school building. And then we built a pool house. The whole idea was trying to build just a little community in that space between buildings and the new cool building at the other two form sort of a horse shape, horseshoe shape around the pool.

42:46You know, when you have, so many times when we work on the country and there's nothing, you have to, using the landscape, build this sort of history. But if you just have one tree, or in this case, standard trees, it allows you to have immediately have tons we also had that historic house the building behind it is where we really got to come and be created and create and create a whole new wall of exterior experience of the house that was it that was a that was a fun project It's so romantic. The sight, the sight's just gorgeous. Look off in the whole direction. You know, let's leave the words.

43:37I don't know what it's good. Gosh, yeah, the Victorian. Yeah, there's just so much to look at and so many textures in one little place. So it was interesting to see how you got the pool house to like what you pulled from the original to, you know, decorate the pool house. it's beautiful. Yeah, that was a third project, but if you go down the list, they're awesome projects. I mean, because people let us, you know, not let us do what we want to do. They let us take their ideas as far as possible and encourage them. That's a great piece of insight, though, for our listeners, because I think most people probably have a little bit more, like a little bit of hesitancy.

44:29And you're kind of suggesting maybe you haven't taken the idea far enough, you know, and like, if it's not working, maybe it's like not there yet. And you just kind of got to keep going. You know, I think people let us keep going. Because, I mean, it's not marketing. we really try to get to know them and really focus on what they want. And then through architectural language, our experience, whatever, we feel like we can take their idea further. And that's a win-win deal. Well, sometimes you get to a point with a client and an idea where it's just not resonating. Like it's what they said they wanted.

45:23And we've shown you five different ways you can do this idea and it's still not resonating. It's not necessarily we can't come up with a great idea, but maybe the idea has a little bit of some fundamental thing in it that just keeps it from being great. And so sometimes you have to know when to change the paradigm. And I've said many times in meetings, it's like we now present with some other of our colleagues and let them kind of have some opportunity to be part of this flow of information and they can respond better by being at the table. But I'll jump in the middle of it sometimes and just say something that's just completely, totally different, just to shake it up and get us off point.

46:07And if you do it with a client kind of live, it's not like you've premeditated it and you've thought about it and you're trying to set them up to do something that you want to do. I don't ever have an agenda about what I want to do. I might have a way I want to do it once I have an idea, but that's usually an aesthetic issue. But the solving the problem issue, sometimes you have to just be willing to toss it out and be. And we do have a little bit of a bully pulpit now from all our years of doing this to where people go, oh, well, they are listening and now they're saying this. So usually it works out, but we never walk in with a strong idea and say, this is how it's going to be.

46:47We learned that lesson a long time ago. Plus, it's not our tendency. Now, do you guys, do you have favorite projects in the book just because there are so many? my favorite project i've ever worked on is the next one great answer for all your future clients i mean that would be like saying which is your favorite it'd be like saying which is your favorite child well yeah and you'd still have an answer for either a season of life and or their age so i could see you being like this one's my favorite because it was the most challenging that was the most rewarding but that's fair or if you had a favorite architecture style then you could be like oh i loved working on this because it filled my cup you know but that's fair i won't i won't i know it's how i i i would say i love when people want to do a style we've never done before like in the first book on the cover it's this french house and we've never done a french house and that's exciting to do something the first time because you get to just learn so much.

48:01And so that's exciting. I will say, you know, somebody asked us to do a Georgian house. We've done a bunch of those. But how do you make Georgian be that person's house, not just a Georgian house? That's exciting too. So it's not just marketing. I say next. It really, it is fun to make something special for somebody. Well, I think Russell's answer is an answer that a lot of architects give, and it's a fair one, because it is exciting to get that next project. But if you qualify it within the book, I still would say I'm not sure what my favorite is, but I can tell you there was one in the book that was probably involved the most energy of a personal nature for me, and that was to do my own house.

48:53And so I was sort of, I never thought I'd do my own house, but I was sort of mortified when my wife came to me one day and said, you know, Bill, we haven't been upstairs in six months. Our kids are all kind of moved on and maybe it's time to think about getting a little smaller house. So Russell alluded to this earlier. We spent 25 years in River Oaks and recently built a house near the Menil Museum, which was a great fun challenge with your wife as your client. And anyway, we're still happily married.

49:28It took a lot of energy. Was it? I am sure. Yeah, what were some things you learned about having yourself as a client? Not really having a desire to do a house for myself meant I had to get over that hurdle. Because Jane had left the station. She'd already found the lot she wanted, and we were successful in buying it. It was adjacent to the Menil Museum. That was the other kind of large elephant in the room is two Renzo piano buildings and a Johnson Markley building 100 yards away. And one of them, at least, maybe one of the more famous buildings in America, at least. And as an architect, most architects, I would think, contemporary inspired architects would be salivating build next to the menil.

50:10It kind of scared me because I really wasn't that interested in trying aesthetically to be part of that process, being the kind of architects that we are. But the neighborhood was full of bungalows that the menil had saved and painted in one unifying color to make a campus. So we were part of a campus whether we wanted to not be or not. And so we set about trying to do a building that was thoughtful, a thoughtful insertion on a very tiny lot, 50 by 100 feet with an 80 foot diameter oak tree in the middle of it. So I thought if I was ever going to do a house for myself, this might be the one to do it on because it's kind of self-limiting.

50:46I really probably can't get in that much trouble. And anyway, we set about doing it and it ended up being a great experience. Russell was very kind to endure this as I was mulling over various ideas all the time. But yeah, it was great fun. And I think the Menil appreciated it at the end of the day. They are nervous about people coming in, inserting things in their campus. And I knew we would get there, but it took them some time to kind of see it. And as they saw it, they began to help us, including leasing us some land to build the house, access to the house so we didn't kill the tree. So we ended up getting to be part of a neighborhood through the process.

51:28And to this day, people walk by and thank us for saving the tree, which, of course, was implicit in our mind. But, you know, the way things go in Houston, people come scrape something and build something ugly every day. Sometimes people build something nice. So we kind of fell on that side of the coin. Yeah, there were a lot of projects where you didn't take, well, I'm sure you took down trees, but there were, you know, big trees that it was clear you were kind of building around. Like, give us, give our listeners sort of a pitch for why you shouldn't take down trees. I feel like that's probably a challenge for a lot of people because they, you have something you want to accomplish and there's a big tree in the way.

52:13Well, that might go back to one of your earlier questions about what would you advise clients to do? You know, if they've got a lot that's got a tree in the middle of it and you want to build and your setbacks are such, you know you're going to have to cut the tree down to build it. But you value the tree, well, you know, maybe buy a lot next door. And, you know, there are ways around that that probably aren't for everybody. But those trees have cultural value to our city and our neighborhoods. And people look at them in the Menil. They've saved all the old oak trees. So they dot their campus and everybody walks on the sidewalks and hangs out under the trees in the afternoon in the shade.

52:55And so, you know, I think if you just see a way to value it and you can compromise probably in the right word, but you can change your paradigm to use my old term here to see how you could put a house on a lot that had a tree without killing the tree without, you know, there may be something that unique that comes out of it that allows you to focus your property on the tree and enjoy the tree every moment of every day that you're in your house. And that's what happened to us. But a lot of times it's if there's trees and we can take advantage of them by keeping them, we're always going to be looking at them.

53:29But we have great trees. We have these live oak trees that are just absolutely spectacular kind of sculptural things to look at. So you want to you want to take care of them. And you can you can also move trees. Yeah, there was a there was one you couldn't get your arms around it and they wanted to keep it, but it was in the wrong place. so we moved it and then and it lived and that client decided not to build and sold the lot and so we started another client hired us and we decided that house and we started construction and the way they did it kill the tree? they took all this, it's called oil field pipe it's about 3 inch diameter and so they put the pipe under the tree They dug a deep hole and rolled it slowly to its new place.

54:21Then when they planted it in the next hole, it just moved the pipes apart and left them under the tree. And the roots went down through it. And so, you know, it was suddenly over at a good place. We'll get ready to start structuring the next half. And they're pouring the foundation in one corner and they're going, we just hit pipe. And it's all over the place. He was like, oh, that's the tree. I don't even want to know how much that cost. Oh, God. It cost less than a tree. Yeah, a tree that big anyway. We moved a giant tree at River Oaks Country Club and put it on big balloons that looked like cigars that were about 80 feet long.

55:02And then inflated the balloons below the tree and lifted the tree up. And then they just rolled it by rotating the balloons into a new position. And it's been in there 10 years and it's so happy. So, yeah, you don't always have to cut them down. That seems kind of dramatic. We move smaller trees all the time. These trees down here, because we have such a warm, humid, burden, wet climate, grow like top seat. So, yeah, we're always putting landscape back into the context to reinforce what we might have had to take out to achieve a goal. Mm-hmm. You talked a little bit earlier about some of your team internally.

55:43And just real quick before we wrap up, I was curious about, I think there was a section in the book about Notre Dame and sort of classical architecture, like the study. And then you also talked about some of the people on your team have to study for six months before they can work on a project. What's Did I get that right? Well, the Notre Dame part's right. Notre Dame really was the, and still is kind of the only architecture school in America that has a five-year classical program. You can take other classes, but that really is what they do. There's starting to be other universities that have limited studios because I think But whatever, the market has changed, if you want to just say it slightly.

56:39People are coming around and went to live and beautiful places here. But so that's been fertile ground for us to recruit from. And so we used to go up there and there'd be four firms. It'd be us and three from New York, all getting the best kids. And now, you know, every year there's between 35, 40, they graduate undergrad, and they cut off the job fair at 80 participants. That's how spot after they are. 80 firms, yeah. Yeah. So it is, you know, to get people who actually have experience. That's what it takes. We don't always get to go there, and there's plenty of really great aspiring architects coming out of other architecture schools.

57:30But what they're taught, other than just process, drawing, self-truck, they don't know anything at all. So you really have to start over. And I think a large part of Bill and my success is that we've been so passionate about this. We are self-taught. We're always traveling. We're always taking pictures. is what always talking is. That's what you believe. You want to find someone who's smart and hungry to be great at what they do and the rest of it can't care of itself. Another point that I think you're making, Carolyn, was the time it takes to mature into this situation. It's not like you can come to work and get put on a project and really be a contributor.

58:26It's not because you're not capable or someone doesn't have the skills to do it, they're there because we believe that they do have those skills. It just takes a long time to absorb things. And Russell and I are often talking about subtle things like, you know, a pre-air-conditioned plan or what I like to term a lifestyle plan. So a lot of people come to us today and want these houses that have 16 or 17 different room names in them, you know, as an exercise room. And then there's a project room and a gift wrapping room. And no old house had all that stuff. It had a library and a scullery and a kitchen that was tiny and a dining room and a living room and a terrace to evolve out onto and whatnot.

59:13And so it just takes a while to absorb what we're trying to accomplish. and that we have we do landscape in-house and we also do interior decoration in-house for certain clients that want us to do it and we're appropriate sometimes for that and sometimes it's more fun to work with Alexa Hampton or or you know Mario Bwada or whoever it was is and so we we we do all that kind of stuff but in-house particularly with our decorators we're trying to impress upon the fact They have an interesting kind of pulpit from which to practice what they're doing as opposed to shopping and buying and installing, which is a ritual.

59:55It's like, how do you learn how decoration can support or contrast with or evolve the architectural thought process that's ongoing around what they're doing and make a richer interior that's, as we try to make buildings that sit properly in their context, culturally, socially, and architecturally, how can decoration or landscape reinforce the same things? And so we actually have meetings every week with them just to talk about questions that they might have that are unrelated to a job, but just about how do we move the needle on evolving and decorating, not style or type, but how we solve problems decoratively in a way that's richer than shopping or how the internet might sort of lead you to a solution.

1:00:46And so in that sense, Russell and I, our days are constantly varied. We walk through the office, touch everybody, talk to everybody, and you just never know what conversation you're going to get into. And so for us, it keeps us really vital and alive and touching all the work in a substantive way, I think. Yeah, I think you talked in one point about your team still doing lots of hand drawings and all of that, which I think is obviously very romantic, but sounds like really ties them to the, I guess, the history of what the work you're doing. that's kind of cool i love seeing the sketches at the beginning of each chapter yeah and it's it really it's not a romantic tie to the way it used to be it's just you know if you're if you're sitting at a table talking about initial ideas and break story you can do 10 ideas on a piece of paper one if one if one is one if by the time someone turns over two right for that stage is just so much faster and ideas are more freeze-form.

1:02:08You make so much more progress. Sometimes people come up in the honesty. One of us will be excited about something we saw or what about this? And the conversations that we can have here, what about, you know, electrons did this and x billion yeah but but somebody else did this and you've covered you know 30 years of great architectural work in a in a 20-second conversation that's what drawing allows you to do it's moved so fast it generates so much more information just develop ideas i imagine it also feels more like um flexible almost where if you're thinking out an idea and you're drawing it, you don't feel bad about erasing it or starting over.

1:02:55Whereas if it's in CAD or on the computer, would it feel more permanent? I don't know. When it feels more resolved, it's harder to take it apart. I often say to people when they come with their three sketches, these are way too pretty. You took way too much time. All I need need is a kernel of the idea so we can have a discussion. Do not waste more time with me. There's a ton of beautiful drawings, but my opinion, not the beginning. I think the computer does a lot of things, but at the heart of what we do with it, it's sort of a pencil. And it's really, who's the operator behind that pencil? And so with a hand, you get an emotion out of that line that's being drawn.

1:03:46And you can actually find a line better with a pencil than you can do it on a computer for sure. Like there's sometimes just beautiful curves in the landscape that you could sketch, but you try to get someone to lay that out and they're going to have to do it mathematically and points and connect the dots. It just sort of loses any kind of energy. And I think the way that we are more spontaneous with our staff these days, because we have a large firm and we're moving around it all day long, that spontaneity is something that kind of worked for Russell and I. Yeah. What they really hate is when you put trace paper on the computer screen, you draw.

1:04:24They don't like that at all for some reason. What about an iPad? You could probably do it on an iPad. That would be pretty easy. You could do that. Yeah. I could definitely see you guys walking over and being like, wait a second. Let me get my paper. You know, David Hogni taught himself how to do art on an iPad. So I guess there's always room for interpretation here. What about your scale, like putting your scale on the computer? Well, that is an interesting point. When you draw something by hand, Russell and I learned by drafting, that when you draw a line that you want it to be four inches long, you have to sort of have a starting point and make the four-inch point and then draw it four inches and then make sure you measured it correctly, and it is four inches.

1:05:06So there's a lot of ritual to drawing that leads you to understanding what you just did. The computer's not so much, and I don't mean that, I think this is a universal comment about all people working on the computer and architectural firms. You can ask any of them what size the room is they've been working on, and they won't be able to tell you. The first thing they do is go click on it, figure out, oh, it's 15, one and a half. And I think the abstraction that that allows means that you're sort of not completely in touch with what you're doing. So by Russell and I staying aloof from all that, as you could tell, we cannot work computers very well.

1:05:40Prove that without a shadow of a doubt. Obviously, we can't either. But I think that there will always be a place for drawing in our office because of the surety that it affords its relationship to an idea that we can then hone.

1:05:57I find scales to be so fun and interesting. Caroline does. She likes to break out her architectural scale. I mean, not that I have many occasions to do that, but I just find it really empowering. Like to look at a plan and use your scale, like you can tell exactly what size it is. I don't know. Just makes sense. Yeah. Wow. And I draw furniture. So I'm in your same boat of it is easier to conceptualize by sketch. It allows a lot more freedom and flow than once I actually have to draw the CAD. And then it's definitely a lot more structured. Well, Taryn also does hand painting for us, too. So you can't do that.

1:06:38Oh, really? In Photoshop. Are those your lemons behind you? Those are my lemons behind me. Fantastic. This was a test wall before I did a bigger mural. Oh, great. Making the best of it. We know that's another thing that we've had a lot of opportunity with is to work with people that have your skills, Taryn, to kind of paint or do murals or craft something. And, you know, the low-hanging fruit is always like millwork and making things. the columns that are sitting on either side of Russell, we cut out of full-size oak trees. We cut them, turned them on a lathe to be a Corinthian order, and then fumed them with ammonia so there's no stain on those columns.

1:07:16It's just the way that all that stuff used to be done. And so where we can infuse that kind of thing in our work, we always try to do it. You know, there's the layers of meaning and richness that you can get out of scale and proportion, shape and history and things coming together. Part of what makes rich things, I think. But it's been a touchstone for all of our work. Yeah. Well, the book was just truly a delight. We know you have busy things to get back to, so we don't want to take up too much time. But thank you for spending the afternoon with us and sharing your gorgeous book. Can you tell everyone where they can find it and follow you?

1:08:00well you can find it through it's only and on amazon i believe it's available currently for pre-order i believe it will be released on september the 9th and um you can find us at through our website at curtis and wyndham.com and we have an instagram presence uh similarly titled so um anyway uh we're out there curtis and wyndham all one word you know one thing that hasn't been said, and maybe it's obvious when people get the book, but one of the trunks you had asked us about was writing and designing the book. What's very interesting about the book is Hill's younger daughter, Lucy, is the actual Austenor.

1:08:44She wrote every bit of it. Wow, that's wonderful. That's really cool. Yeah. Russell had the idea of sort of, we'd written our first book, I would say maybe the hard way. And Russell and I are better architects than writers, to say the least. But Russell knew that Lucy was an art history person and a writer in college, and sort of said, why don't we get Lucy to do it? And I'm like, are you sure? I mean, because this could go sideways. And it didn't. And I think it was great because Lucy's known us her whole life, Russell too. Our families know each other. She's not scared of us. She She gave it right back to us and said, that's not a very good story.

1:09:25We need to do that yet. But it also brought a lot to the humor in the book. I think if you read it, there's some really engaging essays. And our theory about all of our books has been to try to give you information to where you feel like you know what you're looking at. And that's why the plans are there. And that's why they're on the whole piece of property. So you understand their context and that the essay is there to tell a piece of the story that a drawing or photographs can't tell. I thought that I thought this one came out really nicely in regard to all that it totally did a good job to designing it I think the photography is beautiful as well a lot of a lot of talented people out there too that are that are helping us look good yeah it's wonderful thank you both for having us on today oh my gosh it was fun absolute absolute pleasure thanks alright that's our show and that's our show you can find all of the show notes on our blog, howtodecorate.com slash podcast.

1:10:24To send in a decorating dilemma, email your questions to podcast at BallardDesigns.net so we can help you with your space. And of course, be sure to follow us on social media at Ballard Designs. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback. Until next time, happy decorating!