Ep. 434: How to Work with an Interior Designer with Gordon Dunning

22:20Liz McNair:Partners weren't aligned. Is that what you mean? Yes. And that's okay. I mean, we can help with that. There are some things we go through. Yeah, it's a marriage discussion that y 'all can have when we're not here. You know, if someone's like, oh, no, I want a man cave. And she's like, I want a she room or whatever with this extra space. Y 'all need to figure that out on your own time. But most priorities of why you're doing it and why you're investing in it, I think that needs to be figured out and shared. Right. Yeah, you both need to value it. And who all has an opinion and what that opinion is on.

22:49And therefore, those people need to show up. Yes. Talk more about that.

22:55Liz McNair:Because I can imagine like if someone is the one showing up to the meetings and they're giving you OK, but then like, well, what about the other person? Are they happy? Right. Yeah. Behind the scenes saying, you know what? I didn't want that. Yeah. But they weren't there. Right. Exactly. We actually have not had that problem in a really, really long time. And I think it's because we talk about it a lot. Yeah. So stereotypically, we usually meet with the wife and the husband comes later. Obviously, it's not what always happens. But there's a design enthusiast and one who is not. And so that we will say, like, if he has an opinion, he needs to come to our love-hate meeting.

23:42He needs to come to the very first design meeting, say he loves and hates stuff, and then he can be dismissed and go on. But we need to be aligned on if he is going to have veto power, he needs to be doing it during the process. I'm saying he, it could be she, it could be your mama. Yeah. And often it is she. Yeah. And often it is mama. You know, it just depends. Yeah. Because if you're going to show it to her in the end and you're going to go, oh, my, or your best friend or whoever it is who is going to completely take the wind out of your sails, they need to be a part of the process. Yeah. But we do talk, that hasn't actually happened in a very long time.

24:15Liz McNair:OK, this actually brings up a great question, because what if like I think we all love a design board. I'm sure you all prepare design boards and that kind of thing for your clients. So and it's normal, I think, to want to have a second opinion. How do you feel about people sharing those design boards with people that aren't in the process? Go for it. Probably have no idea what any of those little swatches mean. Like, yeah, that I feel like could be tricky. It's kind of, we're very encouraging of gathering opinions as often as you would choose at the beginning of the process. Once we start getting down to those final designs, if you are going to get disappointed and pivot based on mama's opinion, who hasn't been a part of any of this after final design, just know you're going to pay for it.

25:01Yeah, I don't really care. If you go outside, we are fee-based. Right. So we have a package that goes with a dollar amount. And that's bespoke to each client. But it's a very specific process and very specific deliverables.

25:16Liz McNair:And you're basing your fee, I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, of the number of hours that you expect to spend designing it. So it's an hourly structure like a lawyer or, yeah, would do. And ours goes with the process and the hours, and that's how we come up with it. But if we have an extra phone call or whatever, you're not billed for it. Yeah. But yeah, if it comes, if we're down to the very end of the process and you're sharing it and things are changing, then the process is going to get jacked and you're going to have to charge additionally for that. But also you're going to be sad because that's when it's going to start going off the rails.

25:50Yeah. So share. We have a client portal. It's all available online all the time. Share it with your friends, but just do it the same way you would do if there's something going on with your kid at school. Do you want to be shared? Whose opinions do you really want? Yeah. Or your baby name. Share it as much as you would. Share your baby name. Yes.

26:09Liz McNair:That is a great one. You want those opinions? And think like, am I willing to pay extra to listen to this person's opinion? Yes. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, if I tell my best friend and they don't like this blue curtain fabric, like, am I willing to pay too extra for that? Yeah. Or do I not really give a shit what they say? Right. Because it's my opinion fabric. It's your baby. Yeah. It's something. Then you can show someone it's all pretty and done and say, isn't this beautiful? Or do you have the confidence to share with your best friend, your best friend, I hate it, and say, okay, that's cool.

26:41Liz McNair:Thanks for telling me, but I'm going to keep it. Yeah. Also, fire your best friend. Yeah. Because she should love you. Find a new friend. You should love her. Regardless. And I mean, you can name your child Margo Coffee Table. Looking at it. And they should go, that is so you. But some people have that like friendship where you're like, this is not for me. I wouldn't pick this, but you do it. Yeah, for you, not for me. My sister's one of those for sure. But you don't have to take their feedback. Exactly. Yeah. Precisely. I think you summed that up. Well, like if you're confident enough to share it and just move on about your business, then great.

27:18Or are you going to pay for it?

27:19Liz McNair:Yeah. To share with you or whoever. Yeah. But we're not going to guard it. That's your post-op problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You choose. You choose. You can get your passwords. I guess I was more asking, like, does it call it? Could it cause problems? Yeah. It doesn't typically for us, though. I don't know why. No, I think people usually solicit on the front end and get any opinions. But I mean, we from the get go. So if someone's got an opinion, can they come put their booty in a chair? Yeah. Or be just dumb. Yeah. Well, it is really easy to be the. Oh, my gosh. What do we call it? Monday morning.

27:51Liz McNair:Peanut gallery. Oh, yeah. Oh, very much. You know what I mean? If you're willing to show up and put in the hours to, like, be involved in the process. then yeah yeah it's just a small activity no i want to know more about this love it hate it meeting i know yes that's it's the best part of our process um i'll give you a quick rundown on our process first so we're fee-based and so it's a nice little package and i honestly this has been our process from the beginning that we have you know our procurement process which is an initial consultation we propose they pay money and say yes or say yes with their money however you want to put that.

28:26And then our first design meeting is love-hate. And then we have two additional meetings that really get us to that final design. And then their deliverables are there. And their meetings or phases, depending on how big the process is. So sometimes there's several meetings in love-hate. Yeah. Just depending, like, yeah, that can vary. But yeah, so phases is probably a better way to term it. But that love-hate one is the first one. And And so that's when we're really getting to know clients. And that's when we call it love-hate. Most people might call it ideation. But we call it love-hate because we work with a lot of nice people.

29:02And we need them to say ugly things about tile, fabric, layouts, whatever it is. Because say it now. Because once we get here, you got to pay extra to say no. Or say that's ugly. And so let's start here. And it also, I think, establishes a trust with our clients so that they feel comfortable telling us, I hate my haircut. Can you fix it? Yeah. I think that's really important. And it is stuff. So when they come to that meeting, so we describe our, like Latham was saying, our process. We do it like a funnel. So in the beginning, we're learning all this stuff about you. We're measuring it. And there's a questionnaire.

29:36So we know stuff about you already. We've interviewed all that sort of stuff. Now we've pulled all these things for you specifically. We've designed several different layouts. I mean, and this applies to every type of project. Construction, renovation, decorating, whether it's just one room or a whole house. So we'll throw sketches and floor plans and tiles and fabric and everything all over the table. You have this created for you ginormous set of options. And caffeine is offered at this meeting. Caffeine is offered. It is very exhausting and solid motivation. and all they have to do is feel their feelings out loud and it's hysterical it's so funny um to see how different people do it because they sit down at first and they're like okay we're like you hate that no i hate maybe for somebody else we're not designing their room do you hate it you hate it so they can say anything between love hate not for me be as persnickety as some people like rub the fabrics on their faces.

30:39Liz McNair:And then it's a - That is important. I mean, it's your nap. If you're going to take a nap on that sofa, I want to know, is this through pillow napable? Yes. Yeah. It's critical. So everybody who has an opinion needs to be there, which is, you know, typically a smaller group of people. But then everything is on their portal after it too. So they have, and we'll give them a homework date. So we'll say, okay, love hate was really, at the end of that meeting, we're like, love hate was very overwhelming. You okay? You want me all right? This is all on your portal. Go home, discuss, sit in the room, talk about it, think about stuff, and give us your final thoughts in a week.

31:13And then we go to the next phase where it's more of a peek behind the curtain. So we've taken all that feedback, everything we learned at Love Hate, which is so much stuff. You do learn a lot. Because they get in it, you know? They're like, Lilac? Really? Hate it. And this is why. And then we get into grandmama stuff. I mean, we get into all kinds of things. It's great. And the things that people have peeves about are hysterical. Things that you've just never thought about in human behavior. You know, whether it's like a chest of drawers, if it has a nice little handle that goes when it closes.

31:48Oh, I hate that. Some people love that. Some people hate that. You know, what is a double vessel sink or a single vessel sink? I mean, that is a house divided, y 'all. I mean, it is drama in there. I mean, it's so funny the things that they've never thought of before or that have bothered them for their whole lives. Yeah. And it's different with every client. And so we always have a good time learning about people. I feel like you need a hidden camera.

32:10Liz McNair:Oh, my God. I know. I would love to. I mean, I truly would love to do that. We should ask some clients if we can do that because it would be so funny. It really is probably our most fun meeting. And we really start to get into budget then because we find out what's important. because there are things where they're like, I have always wanted this. And then we get to the lamp page and they're like, I don't know. All right. You know what's great though? A dimmer switch. That's one of those things where I'm like, oh, it is. So satisfying. It is. It's so good. Dimmers are very polarizing. Oh, really?

32:42I know. We didn't know.

32:44Liz McNair:I thought everybody wanted to dimmerize everything. No, we have one client who went and took them all out of her house. Not, I mean, this was pre us going in. So it wasn't that we put them in and she took them out. But she just wanted to, if the lights are on, the lights are off. But she don't have any options. Yeah, I know. Maybe she don't want them. I know. And we gave it to her. We gave her what she wanted. And her house is beautiful. It is. It makes her happy. And that's the most important thing. You know? It's great. Get business done with the new American Express Graphite Business Cash Unlimited card.

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33:48Yeah. Okay, cool. How long does that meeting take? Like a couple hours.

33:51Liz McNair:A couple hours. And if it's, I mean, if it's a bigger project, again, it goes into phases. But we try not to ever have a meeting that's over three. Two is ideal. Two is ideal. Three, even we are like, oh my gosh. You know, it's just being on, having that many decisions to be made in that amount of time. People get really exhausted and then they start just saying whatever. And if you get to the whatever, then you need another meeting. Yeah. So three hours max, typically two. But I take it y 'all like hearing the why behind. Oh, yeah. Like that is so important for your process. That's absolutely.

34:27Liz McNair:So important. Yeah. That's so, so important. It's also really fun to watch like partners talk about it. They're like, you have no idea. Yeah. I do. And it's really interesting to see them do that. But the why is that's the most important thing. Yeah. Because I said options and I'm mad at myself for saying it because it's not options on the table because there's way too many things on the table to actually happen in your house. because we're going to pull more things. So if they pull out something, we also have a magic wand pile that happens during the love-hate. I really like how this feels, but I'd like it in a different color.

35:02So if we could take a magic wand. And change one thing about it. That's a challenge pile. Interesting. So if we learn the why, then we are empowered to be able to make the why happen. I feel like this is turning into a card game. Yeah, kind of. This is hilarious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can discard. Yeah, you can discard. We often, especially if we're doing construction, we're like, you can throw the marble samples at us. Actually, we usually say Marcy, and it's not very nice to Marcy. They don't ever do it. So that's good. But it is nice because, I mean, in that sometimes you've gone through their Pinterest boards, you've had all these conversations, you've read their questionnaire.

35:37And still, when you get in there, they're like, I actually hate that color. What I was talking about in this image was this one thing. Yeah. And, you know, you try to find the consistencies and sometimes still until you're standing there talking in pictures and words together, it's not evident. And so that magic wand pile is what helps redirect us if need be towards that semifinal goal. Usually, at least there's a big chunk that was in the direction. But sometimes the surprise weirdos that we throw on the edge as a just in case they really did like that funky thing or that thing we really think would be cool in their house.

36:11Sometimes then we pivot that way. And I think, too, that also helps bring to the top. There's lots of different types of clients. Some want a lot more guidance. Some want a lot more partnership and involvement. And that really comes to light in there, too. And we try to, I mean, within our process, we try to identify about folks and cater to that as much as we can. Yeah. I want to add the Ann pile. We have an Ann pile. Oh, Ann. An Ann or a Lee pile is what we call it. Because they're middle names that just, you know, they're just friends with everybody, you know? it could be katherine and yeah yeah yeah we're like that you know that just works she's not the room starter but she's good yeah you know that's the and pile yeah so it's something

36:54Liz McNair:they don't maybe don't love or hate but it's just like it there yeah yeah neutral and you gotta have something like that i see that works yeah yeah yeah just for the eye to rest or you know something to blend it and it complements it you know your name is katherine am bailey you have that. Boop, boop. Yep, it's great. We appreciate a good graduation name. Okay, how it does the process, it sounds like the process, like the funnel that you mentioned is the same regardless of scope, but is there anything about it that changes with scope? Like, is that obviously the timeline, but like... Yeah, timeline's a big one.

37:28I mean, you know, if we're doing construction and furnishings, and that can be renovation or new construction and all that, then that will take a longer timeline. And sometimes we will run those as nearly parallel processes. Processes? I'm not sure. Processes. Different processes. We'll run them almost parallel. So we'll start on construction. And once we get about two-thirds of the way through, we'll start furnishings so that we're kind of considering those things together, but no one gets totally exhausted. So sometimes we'll do all that, but just spread it out a little bit. Or if it's a really large home, we'll need more meetings about similar things.

38:06So timeline does make a big difference. Trying to think what other ways it'll pivot. The deliverables change. Yes. Obviously. If we're doing a construction project, then there's construction documents.

38:15Liz McNair:Yeah. And there's election schedule. That was actually going to be my next question. Like if someone is doing construction and that's involved in the fee, then would they expect you to like be meeting with the tile installer to make sure that that's installed? properly? Like what level does that involve, I guess? So we, in the design phase, at the end of the design phase, there's a set of deliverables. And I assume most people work this way. You do construction. You'll have a set of construction documents and a selection sheet in your design board. So you're providing the documents on like, this is what the tile.

38:49Liz McNair:Where the tile goes, where the shower ahead goes. Occasionally, architects will have gotten into that. Yeah. But usually we do the coloring it in to that extent. We call it coloring it in. Yeah. So we provide all of that stuff. And in the best situations, we do walkthroughs during construction along with them, as many as they want. We have what we recommend for sure is that we do a framing, electrical and millwork walkthrough so that we can say where the light switches go and things like that because things always change during construction and where there is your advocate and just to make sure that we're all now standing in the room and it looked good and planned to put this light here.

39:37I don't know, great aunt so-and-so died and she left you a light and we switched it and this looks better here. Whatever. Yeah. And sometimes too, I mean, inches are inches and sometimes a wall went in and it's six inches off and you go through framing, walk through and you go, okay, well, all right, that happened. What's the sacrifice to move it back and we're going to have to wiggle that window. And so we can stand there and help problem solve that. So you're not left all on your own during that. Because, you know, we don't want to only be there as much as you want us to be, but there are some things that we really think we should be there for to help your life be better.

40:09Liz McNair:Yeah. And because you have the, like, you know what the vision was, what the, what it's supposed to look like. And like, they're minutiae to some of these questions that maybe the contractor's asking them and they're like, I don't know. That is a huge thing to know when you are building is that you should and can and are empowered to call your designer when you have that stuff. You can look at your builder and say, please call the designer and ask them a question. What should happen and what we say to our clients all the time is designer, builder, architect, your design team should figure out the after there's been a weird pivot, something's happened.

40:46Then we should all figure it out and then present the options to you. You shouldn't have to do that. That's what you're paying for. Right. And it's going to be better. Let's be honest. Yeah. You do whatever you do for a living. We got this. Yeah. And if all three are aligned, it's absolute magic. And most of the time it is. Yeah. Most of the time it is. I mean, one of our favorites. I mean, we do those three walkthroughs and then they'll just call us on emergencies. And sometimes it's an emergency. You know, no one's dying. Yeah, yeah. You know. And obviously, too, occasionally, I mean, occasionally, I mean, we usually have really strong teams.

41:22But occasionally you have a turkey on the team and turkey, you know, it's just going to be the nice or a peacock or a peacock is often it. And that individual doesn't want to do what you want them to do. Then we can be your advocate. And, you know, they didn't want to take those historic doors and figure out how to make them work in the house. But guess what? That's what we specified. That's because that's what you wanted. And we'll stand there and look them dead in the eye and say, you're going to do it too. You're going to do it.

41:50Liz McNair:And they get to be good cop and you get to be backup. Exactly. Exactly. Latham was that one. Yeah. I am. I'm usually really nice, but when someone's doing anything, she just stares. Don't tell the cross. Yeah. She just stares. So you're doing that tomorrow or today. Thank you. It's a lot easier when it's not yours. You know? It's a lot easier to be someone else's pit bull. Yeah. A lot better. Yeah. Obviously, top to bottom construction takes time and you see it happening along and along. if it is a room just of decorative elements that are not stuck to your house then those things um usually all happen in one day or one couple of days and that's pretty fun that's very exciting install or the design process the install yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah not the design process yeah yeah like you're coming in and doing like the grander zl hgtv style yeah except we're not there we sweep ourselves out the back door no no no and i just come home yeah we leave wine smelly good things, a nice note.

42:47Liz McNair:You don't want to see the reaction? No. No, because what if they need a minute? Because we have had clients come home before. This is everything they wanted and hoped and dreamed for. And they walk in on install day and they're like, oh, this is a big change in my life. And it takes them 24 hours to be enthusiastic. You shouldn't have to worry about our feelings if that's where you are. Plus, I got to go big on my kids. I got stuff going on.

43:15That's actually not why we've done this obviously way before that. But that was it's really it's a we want you to go and like sit and celebrate it with your family and be like, oh, this is what you know. That's who it's for. I mean, we have a great relationship with all of our clients, but we're not who it's for. It's for you. And so you should get to come home with your kids and whatever we were. Oh, my gosh, this was so great. We were home recently and clients kids came home before they did. And we were designing an area that was really kind of their space. and it was a real treat that was that was actually really cute it was an accident that we were still there but um not an accident but oh my gosh they were so precious um and we turned this kind of little found eve into a little tea room for them well actually it wasn't supposed to be a team room it just turned into that on install day um just a little art beautiful wallpaper in the vault of the eve it's so stinking cute so it's kind of this color like it's lovely little blush and the girls are what like seven and four or something like that um and they came running in and they saw that we had put in a little accessory um t-set there and they were like and they went on my cute little r's for little r's weren't exactly right and they gave us a t-set and it was so cute it was precious oh and they just found every little detail so exciting there was Jason easily walked in and be like, this isn't my favorite color.

44:40Liz McNair:Yeah. Because Mama picked it. I was blessed last week. Yeah. Yeah. But they didn't. They absolutely adored it. That was fun. So every now and then. And we had one client who very much insisted that we be there. And if that is what they really, really wanted, I mean, I guess we can make that happen. That was worth it. She cried. That was worth it. She cried. We cried. It was great. Like, so, I mean, occasionally, but 99 % of the time we're out. Yeah. We send an email. We send the we out email after all day. And it's like, you're allowed to come back to your own home now. Yeah. And we are not there.

45:17There is something for you to drink. Yeah. Come on home. Yeah.

45:23Liz McNair:Oh, my gosh. That is crazy. I didn't expect for y 'all to leave before they come in. Yeah. I mean, you know, our, like, experience with it is seeing, like, any SheTV show. So you assume that they're there and want to see that. But that does make sense to you and be like, do you like it? Yeah. This is weird. Did you notice this little thing? Yeah. Did you see this? And it would be pressure on them to be performative about how it looks. Yeah. And their reaction to it. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. None of us are good at that anymore since the internet. Yeah. Being performers in person. We do okay. We do okay.

46:00Liz McNair:what happens if you get to install day and they don't like it like has that ever happened probably not because you're here but like how would one um handle that situation in this hypothetical that is a crummy situation we have had elements not been liked not the whole thing thank god um i think that's everyone's worst nightmare um the client obviously um but us too because we have learned to love you and the whole process and all that sort of stuff. Also, financially, that ain't great. So that shouldn't happen because we've listened the whole time and we've measured things. There has been, during COVID, we did some virtual outsourcing of measuring and there was one time something like really didn't fit.

46:43Yep. That was a bad day, but that was our call. That was a bad day. So we, yeah, and I'd say most designers have a clause. It's like, you buy it, it's yours, you know? But in that case, when it just straight up didn't fit, We're like, we do a dip. They're going to just take that with us. Yeah. And then we're going to not hire that measuring team ever again. Yeah. No, we do. Yeah, we do try. That's like with Love, Hate and in Peek Behind the Curtain that we talk about the red flags of something. Like if something is really weird, like it's just there's a lamp that we love that we call the disease lamp or something super brightly colored or marble.

47:20People sometimes are not sure about marble and how it functions. We try to go for the no on it so that we talk about how bad it could be for your life. Like, now this is weird. This is a weird ass lamp. It's really big. Are you sure? So we don't try to weasel anybody into anything to appease our egos because that just doesn't, then we would have that uncomfortable conversation. You're not trying to talk people into something. No, because then if they, if we took that risk, then we end up having that awful conversation of, it doesn't work, that's subjective, so whose fault is it? So that's awful.

48:01Liz McNair:And I would think that in most cases, there are so many options that you can find someone, something that they're going to like. So it's not like this is the only lamp that would work here. So even if you don't like it, like we're using it. I mean, there's going to be something else to chuck it instead. And you'd rather do that. Yeah, exactly. So that's only happened to us a few times where somebody hasn't like a particular element of it. And we actually feel like it's not wrong. Yeah, maybe two or three times max. And then it's just a super awful and comfortable conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of case by case.

48:39Liz McNair:Once you leave, you send that we out email. What happens after that? Are there any situations in which like someone comes back to you or something gets sane? They call you or like what is sort of the like after? With those relationships are just as strong after that. So there is we've got to finalize your invoice. So we're still talking to you. your invoice with all that sort of stuff um which hopefully is never a surprise because we send updates every week about that so that's usually just if you know like right now price is going up for various reasons um so that's happening and then if you know a snag happens i'm trying to think recently some automatic draperies the um one of the motors in it malfunctioned um so those relationship should be just as strong.

49:33She emailed us that this happened and we took care of it and it's I think it's being fixed tomorrow. So those that should just, that's part of it.

49:39Liz McNair:Yeah. And there's not additional fees for that. And we're still, you know, like I feel like it's an open door. I mean, we're still chatting with you. We're still friends. You can call us anytime. There's a photo shoot. Yeah. There's a photo shoot. Yeah. We love those. Yeah. Are those in the contract? Like, is that something that someone should know going in? Like, this is going to happen at the end? Yes. Yeah. It is. Yeah. Does anyone ever have issues with it? No. Typically, I mean, now, if we are pitching it to a magazine, we always ask the client, you know, if someone wants to publish it, for example, we talk to the client and say, do you want your name in this?

50:16Do you want your gender in this? Do you want any part of you involved in this? And some people want their names. They're totally comfortable with that. Some people are fine with just their portrait of them in it. Yeah. I mean, various publications want various stories. Right. Yeah.

50:28Liz McNair:Like someone more of the homeowner element than others. Yeah. Right. So that's totally up to them. Yeah, that's totally up to them because we've had work published with portraits and we've had work published where no one even knows what their name was. Right. So, you know, we try to be respectful. This is their home, you know, but also it's our profession. So trying to find the perfect way where that is successful for everybody. Yeah. At what point does that happen? The photography of the scene? You know, it'd be awesome if it happened like a week after the install. That's the dream. But that hasn't happened.

50:59It happens all over the place. sometimes a year later. It just depends on what other stuff we have going on. Yeah. And whatever stuff they have going on. I mean, sometimes we'll get through a project and let's say it was a three room project, but we know in six months they're doing three more. So then that gets kind of pushed and pushed and pushed until we know we can go and shoot all day. Sometimes it makes sense if it's a kitchen to get in there and shoot it for a half day or something so you can submit it to competitions or whatever. But for the most part, you know, we try to do it as close to install day as we can, just so nobody's feeling like they're tiptoeing around their own house.

51:37Right. But for the most part, it's within six months, I'd say. That's the goal. Have you ever gone into a house that you went to go photograph, like, a year or six months later? And you're like, oh, they moved that there.

51:54i don't think we have with which is a sad face sometimes there's a surprise face you're like hey this chair's up here this is true okay they must not have worked on there for them yeah i mean it's funny or somebody snatched it i feel like i feel like a child took a chair once no but no no isn't that weird well no that's good that means that your design was effective I think coming from a designer, I like to move stuff around all the time. Yeah. How could they even control themselves to move things around? But no, not really. Yeah. Sometimes it's exactly how good. Yeah, that's amazing. I don't know who they're who.

52:32Like exactly the box on the book on the, it's wild. Right, right. Like they haven't even moved the accessories.

52:38Liz McNair:Yeah. Yeah. That's shocking to me. And it's clean. So clean. I know, but there is a certain comfort in like, oh, this is how Kate and Latham thought that this box looked best. And they thought red tulips looked great in this vase. So I'm going to just keep buying red tulips. Yeah. I mean, this is every Tuesday. I thought these tulips. Yeah. And it is funny. I mean, there are some that you walked into like years later. This is exactly how we left it. But what's cool is that it always has some layer. Not always. There's kids and dogs, which there often is. There is a layer. And it's cool to see that they are actually able to live their life in that space, the way that they plant.

53:17And that's really, really fun. That's a special thing.

53:20Liz McNair:Not in a museum way, but in like a, I loved it. They did it right. Like I can just roll with it. Yeah. Well, we put a bunch of stuff out. So it definitely doesn't look like a museum. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. What about, you mentioned before, sometimes they've done like three rooms and you know three rooms are coming. Talk to us about that a little bit. Because, you know, I know that there are probably some designers who only do whole house projects or some that do room by room. What does that look like? Yeah, I think a lot of firms have a minimum and we do to a certain degree. But I think, I mean, we're in this for, well, we're in this because it's a business.

54:00So we're making money here. But we're in this for relationships, too. And, you know, if it is a great fit and it's going to be a smaller project than maybe someone else's, but we know we're going to be together for a really long time and we really like each other and work well together, then that's just as good as a one wham bam whopper project, you know, because it's the same. It's just over time. Right. Yeah. I think a lot. That's a great question to ask when people are interviewing. Like, what is, how do you define your minimum? I think is a good question. and what is your minimum? Is it dollar related?

54:37Is it square footage related? Do you only do whole houses? And a ton of designers only do that. And I think ours is a little bit more subjective and case by case. What I really don't like doing is picking. Is all we need is a chair in our living room, a light in our daughter's room, a runner and a pink color. And like, we don't just pick things. And I don't think any designers are capable of just picking things. We look at a space, whether it's a house, a room, whatever, as a full composition and a lifestyle. So just like picking a chair, that makes a whole lot more sense to go to a resale store and talk to somebody about this is my situation.

55:25Can you help me find the proper chair?

55:26Liz McNair:Or some designers do those. I don't know if you'll do this, like the expert or something. It's like an hourly consultation. Yes, yes. Yes. And we do that too. We're on intro and we'll do that as well. And that's been great. We've had a couple of folks on there just have like three or four problems and they got 30 minutes. And we'll get on there and their drapes are hanging there and like, dude, is this right? How should I hem these? What's the height? And we can solve some problems like that. But if someone is coming to us as a full service design, we want to give them a full service design. And there's all the same work involved in the picking because the way that we approach stuff, this might be specific to us.

56:08I don't know. Is that we want to know who you are and how you work. So we still want to measure the space. We still want to do the questionnaire. So there's all that work up front to just pick a chair. It's not worth it for the squeeze. I mean, there's, you don't, not the squeeze, but whatever. It's a really expensive chair. It's a really expensive chair. I wouldn't buy a chair like that. Yeah. That's a steely. Yeah, I just go on somewhere.com and buy my chair.

56:31Liz McNair:Yeah. But they wouldn't, yeah. So, okay. And then what if we've worked together, we did three rooms, and now moving on to the other three rooms. Does that process look totally different? Because you've already done love-hate. You kind of have. Well, love-hate's specific. Oh, okay. It's specific. It's room-specific. It's room-specific and human-specific. So we've done layouts for only the scope we did before. Right. So we'll do love-hate again, but love-hate usually goes faster. Yeah, yeah. Because we do already know a lot more about you. There's a lot less to hate on the table when we're round two.

57:04Yeah, there's one client that we're working with right now, and I hope she listens to this and knows who she is. Who we have kind of—so we met them when they were doing their new build, when Gordon Dunning was quite young. And we picked all the—picked. Shouldn't have said that. We helped them specify all the things for their health. And then we did their common spaces, their kitchen, their living room, that sort of stuff. Then we did their kids' nurseries. Now we're doing their office. So those folks, we do do one room at a time. But that's, I mean, it's fabulous. But her love dates and meetings are so quick.

57:45Like she'll sit down and go, blue, huh? Wild. Exactly. You know, it's just. Exactly what I want. Very, very easy. So her slots are not two hours. Yeah. Yeah. Except for catching up. Yeah. Except for catching up. Yeah. Sometimes there's, you know, personality 30 minutes that we need to fill into that too.

58:03Liz McNair:What if the project is someone that, like, has a lot of good stuff that they like? Maybe they... Love this question. But they are, like, buying a new house and they're like, okay, I have all this stuff. I have a whole house. It was fully furnished. Totally done. But, like, now my space is totally different. I don't know what to do. I love this question. We love puzzle solving. That's a common misconception that designers are like, get rid of it all. I'll only work with you if you're doing all new furniture. There are probably some of those designers, though. We are just not on that list. That's a great question to ask people.

58:32But we will absolutely use your existing stuff and your mama's existing stuff and whatever, because that is what tells the story and makes it function and gives it life and depth and all that sort of stuff. So part of our measuring, we send in the ASBO guys and they'll measure everything. And we go through and measure and take pictures of things we could possibly use, whether that's recover or just use it as it is. And that's anything from our everything. I mean, anything. An existing light fixture. We often come in and think, what can we keep? What will give it life and depth and story for the environment?

59:11Yeah. Yeah, because I think, you know, I mean, if your grandma's piece is not the most beautiful thing in the world, but it means something to you, that matters. And you're like, this is really not worth keeping. Yes. Yes. But if they are in love with it and it makes their soul happy, then it is. And we don't get to define that. Yeah. We'll just put other things around it. We'll just put other things around it. It's not usually. Or send it to the guest room or something. Yeah. A lot of things go there. It's not usually taken to your husband's office. Yeah. And sometimes they're like that, too.

59:43They're like, I need to keep this for sentimental value. I know it's not my favorite thing, but like that's great. It'll go as the, you know, guest room bedside table then. Yeah. Yeah. They'll help us prioritize that, too. And if it really matters to them and they think it's beautiful and we don't, doesn't matter. We're going to put it in.

59:58Liz McNair:Do you ever have to tell them you hate something? No. I don't think we've ever done that. That really bothers me. We have told them it doesn't work. Well, we have said like it doesn't work. And that's typically scale related. Yeah. That happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's not usually like, ew. Yeah. No, that's so nice. Well, I just mean you are asking them to be upfront with you about what they hate. Yeah. So I wasn't sure if it ever goes the ways where you're like, I have to be honest about something. If it doesn't work. Yeah. Like this, I mean, your grandmama sofa is so precious, but you have a huge living room.

1:00:35It looks like a dollhouse sofa.

1:00:37Liz McNair:Yeah. Yeah. So let's put it at the end of your bed or something or let's recover it or something like that. But saying like, this is dated. If it makes their heart full, then it's not dated for them. You know, right. Like that kind of thing. The thing that I think disappoints a lot of people, and I totally get it, is that if you have a lot of furniture, they think the design fees are going to cost less. But we are. You mean that if they come with existing furniture? Got it. Yeah. They think like, oh, we're already on this stuff. Yes. Yes. So you procure less furniture. So the furniture, the decorative elements, all that stuff cost less because you need less.

1:01:11Right. But we're still designing the same amount of thing, same amount of stuff, whether it's for free, the table is free or not. We still got to measure it. We still got to lay it out in the room. We still got to see how it all works.

1:01:24Liz McNair:So your design would be pretty much consistent, but the purchasing of the new pieces might be less. Well, it should be, hopefully. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you already have a table. Right, right. There's a, you know,$1 ,000,$4 ,000. I don't know what your table. Yeah. Well, I guess I'm thinking like, well, if you're recovering it and you're adding wallpaper and you're, you know, that also can add up too. So it's not like, yeah. But tit for tat, if you've already got something. Right. Then it will cost less. But the design fee is still the same. Right. Because we're still looking at that as a whole.

1:01:57Right. Yeah. That stinks. I acknowledge that that stinks. Yeah. To people.

1:02:02Liz McNair:But if you think about it this way, like how rewarding to now feel like, okay.

1:02:32Your drive always hits the right chord. Chevrolet. Together, let's drive.

1:02:39Liz McNair:Yes, maybe it still costs a lot, but I got to incorporate this thing that I've been trying to incorporate. I've probably spent money buying things to go with it that didn't work, and I've wasted some things or bought some things that are wrong, and now I finally get it right. Like someone getting it right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We love people's existing things. Yeah. That gets really exciting. And I think some people get really nervous about it. They're like, I have this, but I don't know if you're going to like it. What about moving houses, though? Because I imagine that can be challenging.

1:03:12Liz McNair:Like, what if the house is architecturally totally different or a very different scale? Like, they used to be in a historic home, and now it's a great big new build. Yeah, that's hard. That's a hard game. And that's what I get paid for. Yeah, yeah. That's what I will say. I mean, and sometimes you got to get the right artwork to help make it, you know, and position it in a proper way around the sofa so that it makes that sofa feel grander. So we play that game a lot. But it is sometimes things have to go somewhere else. And that stinks when that happens. But I mean, somewhere really got an upgrade in your house.

1:03:47It's just that you're also going to have to upgrade. Yeah, I feel like a conversation that happens a lot in situations like that. Can we keep our existing sectional? I'm going to be like, there's nothing wrong with it. Here are the cons. You could fit more people in here and it could function better with this layout. But we understand that that sectional is free. They already own it. And your kids are young and maybe it doesn't matter because you'll beat that up and you'll do this later. Or so we just make an educated, help them make an educated choice for it. So I mean, you can keep it. It's your life.

1:04:17Do you want to keep it?

1:04:18Liz McNair:Would there ever be a situation in which you'd be like, OK, we're going to design it. And then like the way we think it should work. You keep that sofa for three years when your kids are no longer playing with crayons. You call us and then we'll know. But we'll already know exactly like what fabric. Exactly. Yes. Yes. That's smart. Yeah. So you'll do that. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, just sometimes the life phase for whatever reason is such that. We do it a lot with dining chairs. Dining chairs a lot. We'll procure new dining chairs. And we'll either put an inexpensive fabric on the seat or if one already comes with a slip seat, like with like a natural linen or something on it, we'll just leave it like that.

1:05:00Let your kids bash it up. We'll do the fabulous velvet in a few years. And they're like, you and I were talking earlier, like, I think a couple years or like, I got 10.

1:05:10Liz McNair:Yeah. Yeah. Like, let's just do it and live with it. And in 10 years, I'll get another new fabulous thing and it'll stay around for longer. Yeah. Okay. You mentioned art. What about shopping for art? Because I do feel like some designers approach things differently where, like, they don't necessarily shop for art for their clients and then some do. So what does that look like? It's kind of client-led. I mean, we talk a lot about priorities, obviously, throughout the process. But some clients are like, I don't really know about art. And some it's important to. Some is so important, too, that they actually do want to make the selection.

1:05:44So in that case, and they do want it. They want to invest on it, but they want some guidance. And so we'll send them to some of our favorite galleries that we believe are consistent with their aesthetic. Give them a few artists to follow and look at and interview. And then there are other ones that are like, here's my budget. Fix it. And so in that case, then we'll actually select these specific pieces or commission the artist through us to create the pieces. But we're as involved as the client will allow us to be. I mean, we'd happily select everything in someone's house. But people don't always want that.

1:06:20Sometimes we give them shopping rules. And, you know, they're going on a big special trip sometime this year. And I'm like, OK, well, when you go there, here's the size you need. Here are a couple of different subject matters that might work. And then, hey, if you pick up something else, you know, maybe in about this size, that'd be great. And so then they'll get to come home with something that has their story and their experience in it. Sometimes they've been somewhere, didn't get anything. And then we go on deep dives and a number of different, whether they're artists to commission something new or antiques or vintage and pull things from all kinds of websites and local dealers.

1:06:57And that's smart. Find them something that we're like, yeah, you can tell people this came from Paris. Yes, it did. Not when you were there, but that's fine. No one needs to know. It's still part of your story, you know? So we try to keep it storied. And that sort of stuff comes out in love-hate usually. Yeah. Because we will have pages of art that we are, Latham hates this word, but I don't know a better word for it. Love-wall decor. Right. You know, so it would be, you know, maybe if they're really passionate about travel and have spent a lot of time in India, we'll pull some like rugs that can hang on the wall or something like that.

1:07:31So there's not just like canvas artwork that we're talking about. We'll pull things for them to love and hate on. And that's what starts that conversation of whether it's important to them and want to spend a lot of money on it or not. Yeah. And I mean, because of the work we're in, we have a lot of friends that are artists and we love to support them in any way we can when it's the right fit. And there's a wide range of styles in there, too. And so we love the opportunity to get to work with them and support them when clients let us lead that. But also, you know, to support our clients on whatever their artistic collection journey is.

1:08:03we have one client who um her kids for their birthday i mean from infancy what they get for their birthday every year is a piece of original artwork so that's cool we only procured like two pieces artwork for her house everything else she was just like here you go and we had another client who had an art closet it was the most magical thing i've ever been in my life and you just open the door and there was just beautiful original artwork just stacked in her closet as if she were a gallery because she was like i've just been waiting to do this but i knew i love And she was like, I don't want to put holes in the wall.

1:08:36I want to put it in the wrong place. I know what I like artistically, but I don't know how to incorporate it. And so there was just like dozens of pieces of artwork in there. Oh, it was so exciting.

1:08:44Liz McNair:I can't decide if I love that or hate that. It's been in a closet, though. That's what's that. Not for long. But, you know, it got her through the COVID. Yeah. She was just like, I'm buying this. I'm supporting this artist. I'm doing this. And then she's like, I don't have this closet full of stuff. And I was like, I got to hire designers. Yeah, yeah. Not for long. Yeah. We was just waiting in the wings. It was on deck. Okay. Yeah. It was ready. It was ready. Those are really fun. When we do have clients that love art, it often introduces us to new artists, which is cool. Do you ever have a situation where you're finishing a room and the art, or there is blank space on the wall?

1:09:18Yeah, and it gives us heartbreak. And often we will bring something on approval that day, on install day. Just to be like, it could look like this, though. Yeah. It could look like this. And here's the price tag. Yeah. Just know. Yeah.

1:09:32Liz McNair:You can support the circus. Yeah. What about leaving room in your budget for finishing touches? Yeah, absolutely. There's always an accessory budget in the invoice. What does that look like? It looks like a dollar amount. So when they go in your business, they're going to leave a dollar amount. And we have taken notes during the design process and in their questionnaire about things that tell their story. yeah um like little little weird things we love little weird things that we get to add like objects sit abouts like what are we talking about yes but usually like little stories that they tell and then we like tuck that back about some story um the only one i could think their favorite turtle that turns into like yes turtle shells on the wall or something exactly yes yes exactly and so we try to remember that sort of stuff what was the thing with scarlet what was the scarlet one i don't remember i don't know but sometimes just really quirky weird things will come out in love hate and we'll like print off a weird photo and put that in the frame that we've procured to put out there's um there's one client who was really into wrestling um like professional wrestling okay and um they don't feel like that kind of person at all but they are very very into art and so we i think you and i were in paris and we picked up we were We're getting a lot of sketches.

1:10:55And there was this real weird line drawing of what you think of when you think of a wrestler. And I'm sure that there is a name for this type of wrestler. The onesie thing? It was a singlet, but then he had like a mask on and the whole thing. But it was just a line sketch that we got in Paris. So it was a wrestler, but it was a sheet.

1:11:15Liz McNair:The most elegant drawing one could have of a wrestler. Yeah, exactly. put it in a real pretty frame and put it on their bookshelf and it stayed. So there's like little winks. Oh, that was Lafayette was their dog. Lafayette was their dog. And so we framed a portrait of Lafayette in there. Even though they are not traditional, it was really small, like a cute little oil painting. That was fun. So like stuff like that. And so once they've paid for all their stuff and we've started ordering, we late and we've we've held on to this in our um with our team we're like latham i get to do uh accessories so we do all well you know we'll go to scott's we'll go to i mean we'll wherever the the world is our oyster and find weird little things the thing that stinks or doesn't depending on who you are in this situation is that accessories are all returnable because they just show up on install day you've never seen them you've never seen them okay so they get to shop in their own house.

1:12:18So it's a risk that we take. But it makes sense because of the way that we procure them. We're usually like randomly somewhere and grabbing them. And they don't make sense a lot of times out of context. You have to see them on that set of books or whatever. To be the one-off thing or the perfect box on the coffee table or what have you. And, you know, when we send the final invoice, then all those are itemized out. And so they can sit there and go, is that box worth that to me? Maybe. I'm going to throw them under the bus here. Sometimes she likes herself like a real expensive dining box. I do.

1:12:54I love a really expensive dining box. I love it so much. And some people do too. Hair painting it'll be like$200 for like this big. Yeah, but it's so pretty.

1:13:05Liz McNair:So, okay. Sorry. The accessories budget is not built in on the front end. It is a layer that will be in the room, but you haven't paid for it yet and then they're gonna they do pay a portion of it so okay um the way i don't i hope this is okay to say yeah so our um at the end of the design process they and let's just talk decorative because that's what we're talking about um you get a full itemized invoice with every last little thing including a line that says accessories and you pay 80 percent of that and then the 20 is on the back end and that 20 could morph based on how many accessories you keep or if the price goes up or down.

1:13:41Okay. Should be real close to that 20. So that's our budget when we're shopping. So they have approved, hey, it's going to be X number of dollars worth of extra stuff in this room.

1:13:55Liz McNair:Is the accessories budget like a percentage of the room? Like how does one, because I feel like that would be something that might be a hard pill to swallow for people. Oh, yeah. I think it is. I always think it's going to be, but I think hopefully they've looked at our work and that's how they figured out that it's okay. But people usually don't. Okay. They're like, okay, that's how it finishes. And we determine them by it's, I mean, it's really case by case. We'll be like, okay. Surfaces. How many surfaces are there? Is this room covered in bookshelves? Right. And everybody raised out their candle now, so that's harder.

1:14:32And how much do they care? Because some people are put around people and some people aren't. Some people have a whole library full of books and don't need extra coffee table books on their coffee table. Some people have an art closet. I read on a Kindle and that's all I got, you know. Yeah. But I have three different sets of bookcases in my home. And we just guess. And we're like, I probably need a porcupine box. That's going to be something. Yeah. And we just guess. Yeah. Stylistically also is part of that sliding scale, too. You know, if they're an antiquesy person, it's probably going to be a little bit higher than someone who's like, whatever.

1:15:07as long as they've only been to London and Paris. It's a lot easier because there's a lot of London and Paris. Yeah. But we do try to tell their story in those things, too. So like, well, if someone's recently been to Japan, we'll make sure that the coffee table book that we're putting there, if we're buying it, is Japanese textiles or whatever. And so we try to source based on what their questionnaire says, what we know about them through the process, et cetera. That's a great like little tip that we have for someone not hiring an interior designer.

1:15:36Liz McNair:like great gift like oh you just went on a big trip like i'm gonna buy you a coffee table book but i'm totally gonna do that for my parents i can't buy them anything they don't want anything i am maybe i can buy them you know what i mean yeah books or just give them a hug parents are on i know but that's hard to wrap on mothers yes it is i get it but no like a you know something that like a book related to somewhere they went yeah yeah it's really really really fun accessory shopping is a lot of fun yeah and a lot of times people are like yeah thanks a lot it's great and we don't have to move a thing and then if we could come and take the photos right after that it's done yeah it's good are there any other places within the process that you should figure out like that we might be spending a little bit more um i just feel like I've watched enough of those like home renovation shows to know that like you go in with a budget of X and whatever that is, it's going to be 15 percent more.

1:16:37Like an oops budget? Yeah. An oops budget. Yeah. Like should should we factor in an oops budget? I like I think renovations for sure. For sure. OK. For sure. Definitely. For all kinds of different things. What about a tariff budget? Yeah. I know. And that's hard to nail down. It is hard to nail down. It's really hard to nail down. Yeah, we have like a conference call on those like about every month right now for one of the organizations we're in. And it's kind of like, we don't know.

1:17:06Liz McNair:Yeah. It's kind of a call every time. Everything we told you last month, that's now irrelevant. We're seeing so many vendors who are eating some of it. You're what? Who are eating some of it and then doing it later. So in a current project. So right now, I don't know if it's Aaron, but right now you don't need a tariff budget as a rule because people are honoring the fee that you paid. Whatever you paid will be honored. But if you drag. You mean the designer or the vendor? Like if you have quoted to your client, this table is going to be$500, then. The vendor is honoring it. So we don't have to.

1:17:43Okay. Which is and that just tends to be the trend right now. Yeah. But some have implemented now, you know, but that will be on our next swipe, not on our past swipes. Yeah. And it's I think we think through the contingency budget and decorative projects where so we kind of take on that fear of somebody's like, I got four dollars and we're like, it's going to be more like six dollars. So. But we do try to talk about money a lot throughout the process. It's really important that we're comfortable with it, you know, and I was raised. and, you know, a time and a place and a family where that was rude.

1:18:23It is not rude. It is very important. And it's only one of the only ways we can do our job well. And so we have to be very comfortable talking about money so that they're very comfortable talking about money. And so sometimes we get a semifinal and they have expressed interest in some things that that is going to blow their budget, you know. And so we just try to be very educational about that in that moment and say, hey, this is the table you want. We need you to understand that if you do this, you are not going to be in budget. And typically, as long as you've managed expectations and there is some contingency in their bank account, then it's fine.

1:18:59Sometimes they go, nope, that's all the money I've got. Let's reassess. And that's fine. It's just being clear about it so that no one's disappointed once they get that final bill. Yeah. That sucks. We don't like to present people with money. Yes. Yes, and communication is actually something we definitely wanted to talk about today is I think a lot of people worry about communicating with their designer. Communicate as much as you want to. Don't text and don't DM. That's a big, big, huge. We will not text you and we will not DM you. If you DM and go, oh, my God, that's so cute. That's fine. Yeah, I'm glad you guys.

1:19:35But if you DM and go, so last night I was thinking about the kitchen and this kitchen that you just posted, I really like too. I can't go. So two weeks down the road, I'll be like, I know they said something about a kitchen. Did I dream it? Where was it? Yeah. I can't find it in my email. That's the only reason why. Yeah. That's it. It's just so we can find your information and care about you. We can do our job well if you are emailing us or calling us. You can email all you want. Yeah. And our professional life is people's personal lives. And so we get that. And so they're thinking about us at 10 o 'clock at night.

1:20:08For the love of God. I am not thinking about you at 10 o 'clock at night as much as I love you. But that's probably, yeah, you're right. It's not true. I mean, I'm thinking about them. But I'm also finally not parenting and working and doing all the things. And so if I get a ping on my text message, it's just going to put me in the ground. But you can email at 3 a.m. You can email it. And you will look at it. Exactly. I promise I'll look at it at 5. But that's, I mean, just because of my own poor choices. that you can email at any time you want to. I mean, I think this is true of all just modern communication.

1:20:43Yeah. Yeah. Email anytime you want. Yeah. When we go to conferences and we talk to other designers, there are many of them that text their clients. And if that is the conversation that you need and that's the way you need to communicate with your designer, we're just not the fit.

1:20:54Liz McNair:Yeah. You know, and I think that's part of it is communication style. Which is back to choosing somebody who's like your doctor and stuff. Yeah. Do what I text my doctor. Yeah. Yeah. And some people would. Yeah. I'm just not one of those people. And Tim, I think everyone knows probably their own communication style. But if you're someone that doesn't use their own personal email, then don't work with a designer that only uses email. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, there's tons of people in the world to work with. So find somebody who that's going to fit. Yeah. That business stuff is really important.

1:21:32Yeah.

1:21:32Liz McNair:Anything else people should know? I think the only one was the quick question thing that people often have. Oh, yeah. And like a revisions where folks will want to change something. And in their mind, which I totally, totally get, can we just change this one element? Or can you tell me if this light fixture works? Again, we look at a full composition. So it takes time for us to get in your house because we talk about a lot of houses. So I got to remember who you are. I mean, I know you are, but I'm like, wait, did they like a drawer microwave or not? They either hated it or love it. I can't remember.

1:22:12So we got to get in there and then we got to make the decision. So it takes a little bit longer to answer what is what seems like a quick question. Yeah, there are many quick questions. There really aren't because we're considering so many different elements. And that's why you want us there. But I can also understand that that's frustrating to just be like, I'm just asking you if this one, if it's here or here that I hang this light fixture. But we're like, ooh, but if you do that, then that impacts how big that piece of artwork can be. And we told you it should be that. And that holding is already there.

1:22:43Exactly. And then that, you know, I mean, there's just so many different elements that we're considering because that's our job. And so it's never quick. And so I hate that, but it just isn't. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm not going to add to that. I'm not going to add to that. You did a great job. You're so pretty. Oh, thank you.

1:22:59Liz McNair:thank you so much yep you too anything oh i mean no i mean you said misconceptions um quick questions and picking right yeah there was one other misconception there was i think we covered it somewhere in there we're not scary like what oh when people are like what layout should i what layout would be good in here like what's like what's a quick vision like what's your vision but I think we talked about that when we were talking about, like, you're walking into a room and immediately knowing what should go in there. You have to wait. You got to know who you are. For the discovery process. Who are you?

1:23:36Liz McNair:What is your life? Yes. Oh, and I will say there, I'm not saying that there are no judgmental designers in the world because there are. But another thing is when you were inviting us into your home, we get a lot of when we're first walking in someone's house, I'm sorry, it's such a mess. If your house was perfect, we would not have a job. Yeah. We do not expect it to be impeccable when we walk in. We never get invited if it's not. Exactly. So, yeah, we're there to help. So hopefully it's a little off in some way. Otherwise, we don't have a job to do and then we're not going to get paid by you.

1:24:10Yeah. I'm just kidding. But I think knowing that, you know, we're coming in with problem-solving eyes, not judgmental eyes. Right. Yeah. Hopefully. Hopefully everybody's like. Yeah. I hope so. Yeah. Yay.

1:24:25Liz McNair:All right. I think we covered it all. I think we did. I know. I'm sure we might, you know what? We might get some questions from some listeners. I'm tongue-tied. In which case, we'll have you back. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, me too. Well, that was for y 'all anytime. Thank you. It's always a treat. We're making this easy. Oh, my gosh. This was so fun. I do feel a little bad that we talked a lot about our process. Well, everybody's is different. I mean, everybody's process is different. And I think, you know, there are some central elements, but I hope it gives folks enough to be dangerous, enough to have questions to ask when they go to other firms, too.

1:25:00Liz McNair:All right. Well, tell everyone where they can find you, follow you, see your work. Oh, yes. Probably the most fun place to follow us is on Instagram, as we are a very visual business. And our handle is Gordon Dunning, G-O-R-D-O-N, and then running with a D as in dog, which is always how we have to spell it to everybody. but just Gordon Dunning yeah and then there's the the World Wide Web you could go there www.gordondunning.com yes where else I don't know I don't know and we have a newsletter you can sign up for on there we only bug you about once a month until you about that's not true it's once a quarter we try our best we did take the summer off so intentionally but there's all kinds of happenings and book recommendations and podcast recommendations on there for folks that we've enjoyed.

1:25:53Yeah. Do it. We'll wreck up ourselves. That's next month. Sneaky peeky. Where else can folks find us? You said intro? Oh, intro. Oh, yeah, we're on intro.

1:26:04Liz McNair:Yep. What else? They could do a consultation fee with you. Absolutely. I'm sorry. What do you call it? A consultation? I think it's called a consultation. I think it's called a consultation. Like a couple hours if they had a few quick questions. Yeah, absolutely. So in that, they would sit and be like, so here's the situation. Think of it as you're telling everyone the characters. So you have a new friend and you're like, listen, like my sister is a booty head and she drives me crazy. And the friend is like, well, what was she like growing up? Like you need to give the characters. Yeah, yeah. So my mom's like, okay, now I totally get it.

1:26:41We need the characters. Yeah. That's why I sent a quick question. A little bit of backstory. Yeah, makes total sense.

1:26:45Liz McNair:And as we talk about often on the show, inches matter. Yeah. Like, you can't just say this is how we're to hang it or whatever. Like, sometimes things are tight and you got to. Yeah. Inches matter a lot. Yes. Inches.

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1:27:39I mean, I like centimeters. It's a conversion chart on my phone. You know, you just do that.

1:27:47Liz McNair:Oh, my Lord. Okay, that's our show. There you go. Ending on centimeters. And that's our show. You can find all of the show notes on our blog, howtodecorate.com slash podcast. To send in a decorating dilemma, email your questions to podcast at BallardDesigns.net so we can help you with your space. And of course, be sure to follow us on social media at Valor Designs. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback. Until next time. Happy decorating!