Ep. 457: Timelines, Tiles, & The "Fifth Wall" with Studio Wellington

19:11Ashley Malone:And then we'll move on. And maybe we have a plan for the whole main level, right? And like just do one room for now. Maybe wait another year if you want to do another room. But at least we have a plan. And then once you finally finish this entire project, everything is so cohesive in design. Okay, I do have a question about that, though. Yeah. So say you were renovating a kitchen.

19:34Stephanie Abernathy:Yeah. Yeah. Which is the end of my horizon.

19:37Ashley Malone:Yes. And I've just been like level set that, okay, like nine months to a year for planning. Okay, great. Yeah. But so you've already got the people in the home doing the kitchen. Why not do the bathroom at the same time? It is actually more cost effective to do that. Scope creep. We call that scope creep.

19:57Stephanie Abernathy:Yeah. They're in your house. This is working there. They're in your house. And the domino. And you were like, but you know what I could also have you do is this bathroom over here. And they go, yeah, yeah, we could do the bathroom. And you could certainly do that. It is more cost effective when to have a trade in your house, do multiple things at a time. Yes. But so there's no reason you couldn't do that. It's just then you run into how effectively are you thinking through the details of a space. Because now you have more spaces.

20:24Ashley Malone:Right. I don't think there's any problem with that. I was just saying as more as like you have a whole cohesive design plan and maybe it's just not in the budget for the client. But yes, I always tell the client if you can do them together, it's going to be a lot more cost effective in the long run. Even if you have like a primary bath and you're doing a kitchen renovation, to have those contractors there at the same time will save you a lot more money in the end. Okay. Maybe you want to do it. Do you guys feel like the nursery is like the gateway drug in food design, interior design? It could be.

21:01Ashley Malone:Because it's the only time, or not the only time, for most people, I think it is the one time where they have a planning period. They know that they have about whatever. Yeah. Before this room has to be ready. And I want this room ready at that mark. Yes. And I'm not going to have any time after that nine months to think about it. So it has to be a hundred percent. Well, you know what I mean? I feel like, oh, OK, well, I'm not going to fool with it afterwards. Well, my first full room I like did was my nursery. And then it was almost again like I was like, well, that was it. That felt good. Yeah.

21:39Ashley Malone:It worked good. It felt good. Yeah. It worked. It's a dopamine hit. Yeah, that's what I'm sure. I can see people. So I was wondering how many people call up designers right at like, hey, I want to do my nursery. And then it's like, oh, you did such an amazing job that now I know my bedroom's not functioning and my living room's not functioning. Plus with a nursery, you're having to pretty much buy all new furniture. Like you have virtually nothing to start with. Right. Like a living room, you move into your house. Like you have a sofa to make work. But you don't have like a crib and an extra dresser and a rocker.

22:10And like you're starting at zero.

22:12Ashley Malone:Yeah. Yeah. And we and like I would definitely say that you're talking about like that dopamine level. Like I my husband was like, why are you making this so fancy? Like, it's so beautiful, but like it's so fancy. And I'm like, because it's not for him. It's for me. Yeah, it's for me. I'm going to be in this room and I'm going to be living in this room for a long time with this baby. So it's it's for me. It's pretty. I need something pretty to look at.

22:39Stephanie Abernathy:And I think what's fun about that is that's one space where I think the emotional attachment is like one of the highest. And I think it's also one of the spaces where I like that that emotional attachment is the highest with a client. I think one of the first nurseries I ever designed for a client, she was having a little girl. And I thought to myself, like, well, you don't want to like overdo it with pink. Like you want to be chill about this. You know, let's make this like a sophisticated nursery. As soon as I was having my daughter, I was like, you know what I'm going to do? Everything's going to be pink and purple.

23:15Stephanie Abernathy:You know? So I think it's fun. I mean, and you get to do things with nurseries that you would never normally really get to play with.

23:24Ashley Malone:All the sweet wallpapers and that, you know, especially like even girls. Oh, so fun. Oh, my gosh. I feel like every time I see a flower, I'm like, oh, that was such a pretty nursery. It is a gateway. It is a gateway. It's a gateway. It's a gateway drug. Nurseries are the gateway drug. I do. I do agree with you that the time limit is a real life. You kind of don't really have that in the other room. It's like a fixed point. No, like you could have a guest coming, but you generally aren't like in March being like, all right, I know we're hosting Christmas. And maybe that does help some people. Like maybe that's another one.

23:59Ashley Malone:But I feel like there is something about someone is occupying the space daily. Yeah. all the time i want this to feel good yeah it is the first time i think people i don't know you yeah and you're like when they come i'm gonna have no energy no mental brain power that's why so it has to be fully there it's fully realized i need to be excited to walk in here at 2 a.m yeah that's what i was like it's for me yeah that's for me 4 a.m 3 a.m yeah it's got to function really well yes yeah yeah and be safe you got so many things um sorry that was off renovations but i was thinking like i bet like i know renovations are different than that would be more like think the decorating that could lead to more like renovations because renovations are more also a lot of times need based or like something happens in your home and you're like well we really need to redo x so we might as well do like again expand the scope scope creep scope creep scope creep scope creep

25:04Stephanie Abernathy:scope creep it's a domino it's a domino effect you're like well if i'm doing this with the floors in here attached to this room so if i'm doing this room i need to redo the floors in this room if i'm already in this room i might as well just redo the room yeah and the painter's

25:17Ashley Malone:going to be here already when i'm already doing this bathroom why don't i just go ahead and do

25:22Stephanie Abernathy:the guest bathroom or the powder room or yeah yeah and you know what gosh i've just i owe it to myself to do a really cool master bathroom so i might as well just do that too i owe it to my

25:32Ashley Malone:future okay what about like okay planning wise is there anything that you find um we kind of got y 'all's like you what you wish you had done yeah is there any just like you must have x before other than the obvious like yeah you know plans you know plans but like like do you need to have all the hardware picked out do you need to have the outlet covers i think is that when we're

25:58Stephanie Abernathy:approaching a client project i would say yes like the more detail that we can get into like it's this knob that's going here the smoother your process is going to go because right like your contractor we were i was telling my contractor the other day i was like listen man when we do client projects. I show up with these books that are like super detailed. It's got the plan. It's got the skew number of the item. It's got the two scale version of the item behind it and the heights and the details. He's like, why don't you do that for yours? I was like, oh man, because I'm not getting paid to do this project.

26:30Stephanie Abernathy:I'm not getting paid to do this one. No, I, so I think if you could think through all those details and have the smallest, you know, like it's this HVC event, It's this outlet cover. It's this stuff. There's going to be less mental burden on you as the client to have your contractor asking you all these questions. It's already laid out. It's already done, which is going to cut down on your anxiety during the process. Because what happens is once construction starts, things go wrong. I mean, the built environment is made by hands. We live in, especially here in the Southeast, like it's wood construction.

27:01Stephanie Abernathy:Two by fours are not always straight. The walls are not going to be straight. So you're going to have stuff start happening that's going to create a domino effect for like, oh, well, this what you planned doesn't quite fit. We're going to have to redo this in order to make it fit. Do you want that extra expense? That stuff starts happening. And so you get real stressed out. So then what happens is you're dealing with those problems. So then someone comes to you and goes, which HVAC event you go? And you go, I don't care. But two years down the road when you're sitting in that room and you're looking around, you're going to care about that.

27:30Stephanie Abernathy:Right. Right. So it's I would have those planned out before you start counting those problems so that your mental load is less. Yeah. As you start dealing with the inevitable issues during construction.

27:42Ashley Malone:It's like designing the nursery. You have all that time. And then once you're, you know, you have that time, the nursery has to be done. You're not going to want to make those decisions later. So try to get all the decisions you can out of the way. But there is a lot of times that we call them oopsies. Yeah. They pop up. You got to make the best of it. And then you got to figure out a solution really quick. We try to come with our clients with a solution if we have to give them some bad news and something really fast.

28:12Stephanie Abernathy:And sometimes they turn out to be really happy accidents. So, yeah, like I now get to have a nice rug in my closet because my floors are going to be ruined forever. My most recent example of this is like, you know, we have older floors in the new master closet and there was a miscommunication on the cabinet person's side where they didn't put the toe kicks in the right place. and when we refinished the floors originally, we elected not to finish them all the way under there for various reasons. So then that was going to be visible. So then the decision was made that another party was going to pay for it, but they were going to refinish the floors.

28:51Stephanie Abernathy:Well, at some point when it's 16 degrees outside and you've had the windows open to vent for lacquer paint, the filler gets really brittle and it starts coming out when you refinish the floors. So then I walk into my closet with the now finished floors and it's just like, so painful. I'm like, this looks awful. The good news is it looks like an old English cottage house. So you know what, guys? Maybe I'm good. Maybe I'm good. It's my dream. So I'm obviously distraught about this. And my sweet husband, he's like, let's just get a nice rug and put down. So, you know, that's a good thing. There you go.

29:24Stephanie Abernathy:Nice rug. Yeah. There you go.

29:27Ashley Malone:Okay. I loved what you were talking about, though, with the mental load. That is probably, I would guess something that people don't ever consider planning a construction like when the guy calls you middle of the day and is like I need to faucet today so talk through maybe how you mitigate that or just what people can be aware of or maybe plan for in advance to avoid

29:51Stephanie Abernathy:I love the binder idea that's nice yeah so when we do when we do it for our clients and we're working through this process with them when we do a design we've the design should be complete I I mean, we've picked the paint color. We've picked the faucet. I mean, all those details from our professional side, we've thought through. So then we create binders for our clients where when they elect to have us do that as a part of our services.

30:14Ashley Malone:Electrical plumbing. Where it's, you know, electrical plumbing.

30:16Stephanie Abernathy:Lighting. Lighting. And it has all the placements. Hard, you know, cabinetry hardware placement. And you drew drawings to show where those are placed because that just cuts down for the client later on any questions. At some point, they're going to come to you and say, hey, where do you want your kitchen hardware placed? And, you know, a person might think, oh, well, there's just like it's standard, right? You just put it up. That's never standard. Nothing's ever standard. We're not doing all the same hardware either. Nothing is ever standard. And I think going back to the details, like every single little detail, they work together to create the feel of the space.

30:50Stephanie Abernathy:And you can tell the difference. Like when you walk into a builder grade house, maybe it's a very expensive, very nice builder grade house. Or you walk into a custom designed house. you you don't know why it feels different but it does and it's because of these really small details that you don't think through so i think sitting down and having uh if you can if you're doing this on your own sitting down and um maybe asking going online asking chat gpt what will i need to think through you know what do i need to think through for all of my for my kitchen renovation that i'm coming up and then get a list together of like every single detail you'll have to pick and I would work through that list and how I'm designing my scheme that's what I would

31:29Ashley Malone:recommend for somebody doing this on their own yeah and then and then write it down write it

31:33Stephanie Abernathy:down and have it in a place that's easily accessible for you for your contractor for whatever subs you're working with or using because I think um that's going to cut down on your mental

31:43Ashley Malone:load at the end of the day let's say the first things you need to pick out though your appliances when designing so if you have your appliances then you can start designing the kitchen but you need to make sure what are your needs in the kitchen and what appliances do I need yeah and a lot of the times that does like drive the design of what we have to do and then I know in my process like we always like the countertop first yes I always like the countertop wait why um because you never know what a client's gonna love so I usually take the client with me into countertop shopping and that kind of starts the rooms because they could go with a fusion or an aijen or a torrento or which are all very colorful or viola he's like very colorful or they might go with a taj mahal um but i'd never know so i feel like it's always the driving point and it's such the most powerful point in your kitchen too and probably a big part of your budget a big part of your budget well cabinetry yeah countertops yes yes yes and appliances but i mean appliances

32:44Stephanie Abernathy:the three keys the three keys yeah i think when we i think playing off of a kitchen or a bath yes that marble the selection of like the stone or tile would probably be your first thing for general rooms my rule of thumb would say it would be like if so let's say you're doing a bedroom or a living room or something i would pick the least um i'm trying to figure out how to say it like it's the least diverse option so like yes there's thousands of stones out there but in your area what you have access to you might only have access to a certain range of stones or a certain price point of stones or something so i would i would start with what your least diverse aspect is like paint the limitations where you're yeah i was gonna say millions of paint colors there's lots of different cabinetry styles there's lots of there's lots of different things you can manipulate around so start with your most limited option based off of if you know your budget for your kitchen's x don't go look at you know aijin or toronto yeah cut a or something like that or don't go look at that go you know start with your most limited option and then play off of that and it sounds

33:54Ashley Malone:like too you're also your most expensive in a way like your most investment stuff so that's what i to stay in the countertop. Your appliances as well. Yeah. That makes sense of like, that's going to be a big chunk and make a big chunk. Because what if they want a wine cooler, they want an ice maker, they want a microwave drawer. Like, how am I going to place? And then be like, oh, I want a 48 inch cooktop. I want double ovens. Like, and so I have to know, like we both have to know that going into like designing a kitchen. So, yeah.

34:23Stephanie Abernathy:So like the appliances determine the layout and function of the kitchen. Okay. And the stone determines the aesthetic aspects.

34:31Ashley Malone:That's what I would say. I would have, yeah, I would not have thought the stone would have been. I would have thought. It's always my driving. I mean, if they're picking like a Taj Mahal, then I'm probably going to go with something, you know, then the tile would be your driving. Right? Like, or your backsplash. Right. Like, if they go subtle, then it's probably, yeah. But at least it allows you to know the next. Yeah. Yeah. Depending on the client. Yeah. But I encounter some, so you just never know. Because I've had clients that are like, all I want is Taj Mahal, which is a beautiful stone, which actually ranges in multitudes of colors of green and purple and grays and warm colors.

35:04Ashley Malone:But subtle, though, it's subtle. But they surprise me and they go with a fusion that is like lots of color. And so it's like how to like because if I had already picked all of this other out, how do I incorporate this? They truly love. Yeah. Yeah. What about appliances? Because I, like I remember my mom doing her kitchen and her kitchen designer had picked out like a really extra wide oven. She's like, no, I don't want that because then if I have to replace it, like I have to pick a certain size. I feel like the sizing of appliances could be very tricky. Another appointment that clients come with me is appliances because that is so personal.

35:48Ashley Malone:we will do a preliminary plan a floor plan of how we think the kitchen should be layout and kind of what we think we need and that's what we kind of go for like understanding sizes of what we can fit in this kitchen because like like we have a 1920s house right now the kitchen's not very big so we have to figure out how to incorporate what they want really get creative like we're not going to do a lot of we have a 1940s house right now they're really being in the kitchen like it's you have to get a little creative. But if you have like a giant kitchen, you know, we could fit a lot of appliances in.

36:20Ashley Malone:It just depends on who the client is and what the space that we have available. So we always do a preliminary plan and then a floor plan. And then once we get the appliances, then we go forward and start doing elevations and understanding of everything.

36:35Stephanie Abernathy:I think the most important thing to think of is your appliances are going to be the most functional thing in your kitchen. So, you know, I struggle as a designer and then also personally when you have the draw to like, I'm going to save on the appliances, but I'm going to really spend on my marble. And it's like, as a designer, I would love for you to spend big bucks on your marble. But at the end of the day, that's not going to be what's cooking you dinner for the next 30 years, you know. So it's your oven and your stove. And so I would say that is my encouragement to clients. Like, put your big portion of your budget there where you're going to be using something every single day.

37:18Stephanie Abernathy:It's the appliances. They're the workhorse of the kitchen. The countertops is just... Unless they don't cook.

37:24Ashley Malone:Well, if a client doesn't cook, that's a different story altogether.

37:27Stephanie Abernathy:I don't cook.

37:28Ashley Malone:I don't cook. I want the kitchen to look pretty.

37:31Stephanie Abernathy:Yeah. That's a different story altogether. But I don't know if that's like a typical condition. No, we cook every day. Yeah, I love that.

37:38Ashley Malone:What about places that people maybe don't allot enough? You know, you were talking about the appliances. Are there any other places where you feel like people either don't allot enough budget or they blow their budget? Or like, talk to us about the budget.

37:54Stephanie Abernathy:Lighting, I feel like, is chronically under-budgeted. Like with, you know, I'm working with clients who, if they brought on their contractor, their builder first, and they've given them their allowances, lighting is chronically under-budgeted.

38:07Ashley Malone:they've given you absolutely dollars for chandeliers i mean it's i think hardware too

38:10Stephanie Abernathy:cabinet hardware is that way yeah i think i think that people really have to think through the difference between and again lighting fixtures can be changed but as we know there are costs involved with changing things later and moving things around and um sometimes the box is not the right size and all those things people might forget but you had one of them

38:34Ashley Malone:Yeah. I had that phone call on the way here. See? Okay. Not all junction boxes are the same. No.

38:42Stephanie Abernathy:But if you've picked your lighting out ahead of time and you've created the lighting binder, then the electrician should know which light specified in that space. And the specifications on that light will show what box they should use. A lighting binder. Yeah.

38:55Ashley Malone:Do you have a separate binder system? Yeah.

38:57Stephanie Abernathy:I was wondering if it was by room or by... By vendor. Yeah. It's by type. The way we do it is by type and by room. So it's like a light. There's a lighting binder that also includes electrical stuff, electrical placements where outlets are going to go. You do a switch plan, a lighting plan. Switch plan, a lighting plan. That goes in one binder.

39:14Ashley Malone:And power and communication.

39:15Stephanie Abernathy:And then we do it in that binder, for example, we'll do it by room. So there'll be each individual room will have a tab. And in that tab will be the light that's going in that space, a layout of where the light's going in the space, the measurements of where to place that light in the space. and the specifications of that light in that space. So that way there should not be any issues. However. I still want to be on site. I still like to be there. I still like to be there because you would be amazed by how often people don't read the binders.

39:49Ashley Malone:Well, that and also just because we lay out a plan, right? It's not always built exactly to plan. Yeah. So walls are not going to be exactly the same measurement or distance. So that's why I like to be on site is because, I mean, even an inch can make a big difference or a half an inch.

40:09Stephanie Abernathy:Like the framing crew might not have read your binder. So they didn't know that you didn't want a stud there. And now there's a stud where you had placed.

40:18Ashley Malone:Yeah, an electrical box. So that was a problem. I definitely had a lot was where the original plan was there. But nobody, no one ever redrew the original plan either.

40:29Stephanie Abernathy:So, like, does that make sense?

40:30Ashley Malone:So then the original plan, the next sub would come in, look at the plan that had changed. And it wasn't like somebody was like, please now go see document X. You know, like, I think that's where, again, the contractors just be communicating that. But like, like the cabinets, guys, it's a thousand subs.

40:45Stephanie Abernathy:And this is where I think when we were talking, you know, about renovations and what's the most difficult part of the renovation. Like, here it is. This is it. It's communication. You can't, you cannot. And it's hard to communicate this to clients. And I'm feeling this. And, you know, I joke with my husband because he's so sweet, but he just does not understand a lot of this because he's not in this industry. And so he gets real frustrated. And there are 13 different subs that have to touch for this one tiny thing to happen. And your contractor could be the most amazing contractor in the world.

41:16Stephanie Abernathy:And he could have communicated everything super clearly with the owner of the electrical company. but the electrician guy that they sent out to do the work that day didn't quite understand and so it's just it's human error yeah and every time there's one small human error it just compounds and compounds and compounds and that's what makes construction really hard and renovations a huge mental load because you because even if everything was perfect you're still going to have the stud is not where i expect it to be because code requires this and in a vacuum on revit this sounded like a great idea but in the in the reality this is how it has to be and so we have to put our switch in a different place and oh no there's not a space here to put the switch because there's a casing here and so there's that's what makes construction hard and you have to make phone calls to people to explain it but find the happiness and the joy and the workaround that's still going to make this a great space and you're going to be happy with it so that's where you kind of get into what can I live with and how can I turn this into an opportunity to actually make it better than it was before than the plan or sometimes you're just saying what's the lesser

42:27Ashley Malone:evil yeah the two decisions and we just have to move forward from it yeah and uh and live with it and move on with it this makes me feel like if you okay because I'm I'm thinking of Taryn and like you running off from work to go meet the guy with the faucet to take it to him but what if If you're building a house or renovating a house, not in the place where you're living. Like, what do you do in that situation? I would think that that really would be a case to hire a designer who is there in person. But then so many designers do like projects. I was going to say, we have a project in Kentucky right now.

43:06Ashley Malone:And I wish I could be there like all the time. It's a new build. Yeah. How would you say it's going? Because of the distance. Like, what are you saying? Like, what are the new things you found?

43:19Ashley Malone:um you're like i don't want to share you also don't have to yeah communication is the key into a successful relationship and a great built house um yeah i feel like uh um on this project i definitely flew out there a lot earlier um but now that i am 36 weeks pregnant i'm should probably be flying um we're trying to handle it the best we can from here but obviously there's a lot of yeah questions or i guess my number one rule is to never assume and uh yeah and i feel like when you're designing something that's so far from there like you have to assume that some um i don't know you have to really yeah you have to really trust you

44:08Stephanie Abernathy:have to really trust your people we did a project in nashville yeah like last year a couple years and it went really well. And I think the reason it went, like shout out to Hart at Russell in Nashville, Tennessee, because the reason it went really well is because the builder was so good. And he had an amazing supervisor who was on site every single day and like set up his office there. And I think that's the key. You can do remote design projects or you can build a house somewhere you don't live, but you have to have set up your team. It goes back to kind of what we talked about at the beginning.

44:36Stephanie Abernathy:You have to set up your team knowing those conditions at the beginning and made sure the builder you selected is that you know has a supervisor who's going to be on site every single day it's not one of the general contractors that doesn't have a supervisor and he's trying to visit five or six job sites over the course of a week um those are just things you have to have pre-planned yeah so the more if you're going to do an out-of-state project it the team matters a lot and there needs to be someone on site every single day all day

45:07Ashley Malone:in planning in anything i mean like even if it's here um yes because we've done house like we did house in qs did it was fine everything was great yeah it just all depends on your people yeah your team your team matters your team matters a lot yeah okay so true we um alluded to this a little bit yeah before we started recording um how does one maintain their sanity during a renovation Like, you know, I think you've kind of painted a picture for everybody of the challenges and, you know, the hiccups that happened. So what would you both say has been something that keeps you going? I would say hire a designer because they take all of that brunt from you.

45:54Ashley Malone:Yeah.

45:55Stephanie Abernathy:They've already thought through the solutions before they've presented the problem to you. I think for me personally, I try to remind myself that every time something goes wrong, I have this initial gut reaction like every client does and I'm really upset about something. And then I remind myself, this is an opportunity to make it better. You know, that's the phrase I keep repeating to myself. Like, this is an opportunity to make it better. So how do I turn this into a positive opportunity to make it better? because sometimes you get really cool solutions out of there's a happy happy yeah out of access which is what kind of gives you that dopamine hit so that's what helps keep your sanity going through the process you're like oh wait this turned out really nice so you know something went wrong with a casing and it doesn't work and you go oh you know i have some extra slab can i just put a marble trim around the casing and now all of a sudden it looks higher end and more custom And so I think turning these negatives into opportunities can help you bridge that gap of the frustration.

47:00Ashley Malone:I think it also makes you more creative.

47:01Stephanie Abernathy:It makes you more creative. It pushes you. It pushes your limits. And adds more detail. It adds that next layer of detail. Yeah.

47:07Ashley Malone:So I will feel like just watching clients, like I'm not going through a massive renovation like Stephanie, but watching clients go through this, it's always the same up and down, up and down. They get really excited. They lose their sanity. and you gotta like you gotta talk you gotta talk about the cliff and like i'm like i promise you at the end you'll completely forget about all of this it's like giving birth what's my next renovation what's my next renovation it's like giving birth you have said the same thing it's really really birth yeah it's i want to do it again now yeah see yeah wow wait okay it's an

47:43Stephanie Abernathy:emotional roller coaster yeah it's like giving birth right you you are so overwhelmed you know you're getting those labor contractions you're so overwhelmed you know you're getting the bad news you're so overwhelmed the process is awful the i don't know if this is everybody's experience but those last two weeks before you go into labor you're like it every time creeps by so slowly it's the same with a renovation right like the time creeps by so slowly it's you know you're in the middle of like headaches and heartaches and your budget is overblown and you're crying and You're emotional. And it never goes the way you saw it on HGTV.

48:17Stephanie Abernathy:It never goes the way you saw it. It never goes the way you thought it. Your birth plan's out the window. I mean, it's very similar to the experience I had in giving birth to my children. And then you do. You forget about it. Then you're like, I want to do it again. I want five kids. You get to the end. You get this dopamine hit of walking into this beautiful house. And sure, maybe it's not exactly perfect and everything. You know, like this little drywall has a crack and there's still some punch to do over here. but there's still that huge dopamine rush and so then like a year later two years later you're like

48:47Ashley Malone:i want to do that again we're with a client right now actually um that she they just we actually just finished their renovation like last year and then they moved no oh my gosh and so now we're doing their house there and she was like i don't know if i want to do a renovation and then something about the faucet was leaking or something so now we're oh that's yeah So it's like, she's like, let's do it. It happened. You know, they have a, there's another house they bought too, then we're renovating that one. So it's like. Amazing. It's, you know, it's like addictive sometimes. Yeah. I think that dopamine hit, like you said, it's the, it's finally like, and everything you do is so visual in a sense of like, again, it's impacting how people are living their lives every single day.

49:38Ashley Malone:and it's there in your face. Yeah. So when it's working, you're like, wow, that like...

49:44Stephanie Abernathy:And I think similar to our analogy of birth, I think like if you can do mental prep work, you know, my husband and I have this conversation this morning with our builder. If you could do the mental prep work of saying here is what's going to happen. To the best of our ability to plan, these two months are going to be really painful. These two months are really painful and here's why. Like here's what's going to happen in these two months. And you could kind of mentally start prepping yourself for, you know, you can't plan, you can't guess everything that'll happen, but you can kind of know, okay, during this phase of the project, this is going to be the most challenging aspect.

50:16Stephanie Abernathy:And here's why you could start kind of, you know, what are my coping mechanisms going to be? You know, what the same way you go into any kind of difficult mental, I just, I don't think we can underestimate or under communicate how these are really big mental loads that you're taking on when you're building a house, you're spending the most amount of money you might ever spend in your life. You're, you know, dealing with some super emotional attachments and situations to the place you're going to live and possibly raise your children in. So it's a lot going on in your mind. So, yeah, you need like a therapist.

50:49Stephanie Abernathy:You need mental coping mechanisms. That actually is a great question to ask your contractor.

50:55Ashley Malone:What are going to be the hardest months of this renovation? And then like plan your or not plan your life around that. Like don't sign your kid up for soccer. Yeah. Don't, you know,

51:05Stephanie Abernathy:Don't try to live through it. Plan a girls weekend. I mean, or don't try to live through it. Like, maybe it's not a good idea. If you have two really small children and you've got all this going on and you have a career, maybe not a good idea to try to live through a kitchen renovation and a bathroom renovation or XYZ. You have to budget and pre-plan for the idea that you're going to have to live somewhere else for four months.

51:25Ashley Malone:What would you say are the hardest time periods? Would it be like demo? Is it the end? It's the end. Okay. I feel like that's when most people lose. their sanity at the very end.

51:38Stephanie Abernathy:I think it depends on what what the reasons are. I think if you're trying to live through so what we were specific to what I was referring to is we're trying to like live through the second portion. So for us and particularly for my husband knowing him the prepping him is the most the most challenging part is going to be when you like can't access your front door. Everything's a muddy wreck. Everything is a disaster. You're trying to get your kids out of the car, you know, just pre-prepping that that's going to be emotionally taxing, trying to live through that portion. But for a lot of people, the end is really hard because you've already spent a lot of money.

52:16Stephanie Abernathy:Things have already gone wrong. You might already have maxed out your 20 to 30 percent overage budget that you needed to have. And there's still bills coming in. Everybody's really frustrated. And you're tired and you're ready to be done. And it's still not done. And that crack and that drywall hasn't been fixed yet and like it's that that's where i think that people really tip over the edge so it depends on i think there's like different like you said the emotional roller

52:43Ashley Malone:coaster different ups and downs i think a lot of the times here it's like uh there are stages that things that have to happen in order it has to go in order and i think clients don't understand that so they'll have like days that are lulls nobody's working on their project but that is just something we have to really like make sure that they understand that nobody's been here

53:04Stephanie Abernathy:for two weeks and why has nobody been here because we are waiting on somebody

53:07Ashley Malone:we have to get this done prior to us like this done

53:10Stephanie Abernathy:the tile guy went to visit his mom and he's not been back for two weeks then we can't get another tile guy you know it's that kind of stuff

53:17Ashley Malone:or they're supposed to come out and approve the city has to come out and approve this or we have inspections and they're waiting on we can all we can do is sit here like it's true like we can't do X without them here so yes we have to approve this But that's why it's nice for us to like understand that because that's how we help gauge our clients and make them understand that this is normal.

53:38Stephanie Abernathy:And I think a huge portion of what contributes to this is were all your materials on site?

53:45Ashley Malone:Did you pick it out?

53:46Stephanie Abernathy:Because are you going to pick out something that's delayed? Are there delays? If you haven't picked it out, if you didn't do the pre-planning work and took the time to do the pre-planning work and you just like went into it with the general scheme done, and maybe your cabinet's picked out and your countertops, but like, I didn't pick out the hardware. Then you are stuck with the choice of, but I don't want this faucet, but this is the only one available. And so I think, or you're stuck with, we have to wait. And then that cascades, but you can't get it disinstalled yet. You can't get this installed yet.

54:16Stephanie Abernathy:So I think going back, the more pre-planning you can do, the less likely to have lulls you will be to have. I was going to say,

54:22Ashley Malone:like if you want an unlacquered brass faucet, a lot of those are 21 days.

54:26Stephanie Abernathy:Yeah. Yeah.

54:27Ashley Malone:from order date.

54:28Stephanie Abernathy:Which is great now because when we first started during the pandemic, it was six months. I mean, you know, so.

54:35Ashley Malone:What percentage of your materials do you think you should have physically, physically have in order to start demoing?

54:43Stephanie Abernathy:I, for this second phase, want 100 % of my materials on site because I absolutely don't want, we're trying to live through it so I don't want lols. So if you're trying to live through it, 100 % of your materials need to be on site. But she has a place she can put it

54:54Ashley Malone:until there's doors locked. Yes, yes. you can't I can't put my faucets off yeah yeah so we were storing them at our rental yes yes you're working through a vendor they will hold or that yes yeah like a lot of our clients like we have you want them is ready before demo you want them 100 accessible let's put it that way yeah

55:13Stephanie Abernathy:like it doesn't have to be at the house my appliances aren't on site like like sub 0 still got my appliance you know that kind of stuff but they're ordered they're ordered house with Yeah, they're ready to be delivered.

55:23Ashley Malone:Like they're in their warehouse. They're ready to go and ready to be templated. Yes.

55:29Stephanie Abernathy:Like your stuff's marked. Or like your tile, I would say, is delivered or your tile's at a warehouse in here. I think it really depends on the tile.

55:39Ashley Malone:Yeah. Sometimes we wait. If it's something that they stock, then we'll probably wait to make sure our tile quantities are exact. If it's something that they don't stock and we're waiting four to six months for. Yeah. We're going to go ahead and guesstimate and probably order a little extra. A little extra, yeah. Yeah. Just in case. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. It's all the variables. It's the variables. Yeah. I mean, even like your cabinet hardware, we've had to wait like nine months before on some hardware. So. You got to really want that cabinet hardware. Yeah. You know. You got to really love it.

56:11Ashley Malone:It was pretty beautiful. You got to really love it. It's got to be really special. This is a little bit more towards the pandemic. They're a lot better. Yeah, yeah. It was more expected. But still, some of them are about six months. Yeah. Wow. Taryn, what about you? What was the hardest part in your renovation? Like, were there certain time periods where you were like, oh, this is really awful. I'll never make it. And we also have to revisit your comment from earlier. It's like you said, I don't remember anymore. So it was all hearts and rainbows, right? Yes, it's beautiful now. You forget everything.

56:42Ashley Malone:Did I complain? The good part is, is we recorded a lot during that period. So I could probably go back with everyone else in here every week's trial and triumph. Yeah. I distinctly remember when the guy told me, he was like, no, we're painting that null post. I had like null post custom made. And he was like, they came and stained them to match the floors. And I walked in as they were halfway done with this like hand carved thing. And it was a different stain. And I was like, that's not the same stain. He was like, no, it is. This is your stain. And I was like, that's not my stain. That's not.

57:15Ashley Malone:And it was. What if you hadn't been here too? Is it the same wood species?

57:22Stephanie Abernathy:Yes, it was the same wood species. But even that can sometimes change the color.

57:26Ashley Malone:But he couldn't, it was a different, it was a darker tone in the floors. And so like, and it was stained.

57:32Stephanie Abernathy:It just, as you go through this, you kind of intuitively know, okay, well, even the same wood species sometimes absorb things differently. And so you're a little less surprised by it. But for someone who's not, there's a lot of hand-holding that needs to happen through that because it is hard it's a gut punch i mean that's a that's a gut punch when you've like pictured this railing and the floor and everything matching i designed and you designed it to be perfect and it was custom made yes i think

57:59Ashley Malone:it's because i didn't do so so much because this was like a one thing i was like felt strongly about and of course that was the one thing that got ruined that they were like of course like we'll pay for you to get another one and i was like i and this was one i had been waiting we He could not move in because I had two very small children and there were no railings. There was no railings on any series. And somebody would die. Even if so, we had to wait. And so, yeah, then they were like, no, we can have it remade. And I was like, so that I can go to this woodworking guy to make another one, to buy the wood for it, to sand it down and make these carvings.

58:34Ashley Malone:No. Like, no.

58:36Stephanie Abernathy:Yeah.

58:36Ashley Malone:Just now it's ruined.

58:37Stephanie Abernathy:Thank you. So that's a big thing that I think we talk to clients about is when you reach that point in the project, the lesser of two evils, do you? Oh, yeah. And there's no right or wrong answer here, but it's like, do you wait and have it done the way you wanted it? Or do you push forward, accept the way it is, and just live with it? And that has been my, that's been a big challenge. There was one tile that was cut incorrectly in my son's bathroom and nobody else will ever notice and no one cares. and everyone's like, why do you care so much? But I see it and I still, this is a year later. I'm still talking about this one time.

59:13Stephanie Abernathy:You're still, yeah. I can't get over it because I see it. I'm like, it ruined the whole bathroom for me. It ruined the whole bathroom. But the whole bathroom is ruined. It's trash. It's all trash now. Okay. On that same note though, but would you think that,

59:23Ashley Malone:I would think that there would be some things like that where you're like, this, I'll never not think that this is ruined. But then I would also think there might be some things where you maybe don't even notice. You're like, oh yeah, that was wrong. But like, I don't even care. or like it doesn't impact me the way something how do you know which one it's gonna be it's the

59:41Stephanie Abernathy:emotional investment you put into the thing the floor is in the closet like who cares right do

59:45Ashley Malone:you still think see that newel post and i can only think of that one because there was emotional investment because i also the guy i went to was like just design me a beautiful and i like gave him a tear and he's like you design furniture for a living please draw me exactly what you want and I was like, I don't want to. So I like I drew it exactly to like dimension. Right. And I got the cap to match the stale railing. Like I picked up the stale railing shape and profile, had to get the big fat topper. Anyway, it was a whole. And I think because I was so invested in how that looked that to then just ruin it with that one last thing you needed to do, you know, like it was all in place.

1:00:23Ashley Malone:It was perfect. Yeah. It was like the last thing. So, yes, emotional investment, I think. So you still walk past every day and think it's ruined. Yeah, because I can tell. I don't think anyone else has ever been like, wow, this is kind of darker up here and then lighter down here. No one else ever said anything, but I'm like, well. I feel like with clients, too, you never know. You never know what it's going to be. What they're going to be very particular about.

1:00:42Stephanie Abernathy:Because I don't, I sometimes, and I'm not able to always predict with a client what they're emotionally invested in their mind. Right.

1:00:49Ashley Malone:It doesn't always appear.

1:00:50Stephanie Abernathy:There's probably some things that they are just like, whatever.

1:00:52Ashley Malone:Yeah. And there would be things that I'm more emotionally invested in than the client is. And they're like, oh, that's fine. And I'm like, no, I will fight my ground on this.

1:01:04Stephanie Abernathy:For me, the reason the tile in the bathroom is still is always is just always going to be ruined to me is because I did decide to fix it. I like paused everything. I was like, we're taking these pieces of tile out. We're fixing it. But then the new tile that was shipped to me had the wrong veining. It was just a bad it was a bad veining lot. And that was what I was left with. And so it's just it was just like the problem that kept getting worse. So finally, I just said we have to move on and I will never not see. Yeah. It just looks bad.

1:01:34Ashley Malone:See, yeah. That is the one thing about if you do or like tile early and what if you need more, the dialogue. If you're doing natural stuff, making sure, you know.

1:01:49Stephanie Abernathy:Yeah. I think one of our big pushes with clients is always as natural materials as we can get. So like what's the most natural material because that will age with your house. I think we haven't gotten into this topic, but in terms of satisfaction long term with a project, you know, people do a renovation, do a quick renovation. Sometimes if you pick the trendiest thing and you are, you know, going with the option that's the most budget friendly option and the most trendy and it's that perfect like Venn diagram juxtaposition of fitting the two, that's going to go away in the next five years. years and so five years from now you're living in the space you look back and go why does this look bad all of a sudden it's like well all the all the stuff you're being sent through instagram or through beautiful magazines or through tv all the stuff you're being sent is like we've moved past this so your brain's now like well this is no longer this is no longer the thing so then you're dissatisfied with something you just spent a lot of money on so i think we push a lot of natural materials eight things that will age things that are timeless yeah authenticity Polenticity.

1:02:57Stephanie Abernathy:And that's kind of where the like history background, art history background come in. Yeah. Pulling things like, hey, you know what's always been in? Marble. Always been in. Rome's built out of marble. Yeah. It's damaged. It's cracked. It's like, you're not going to scare me with etching. You're not going to scare me with some like divots. You're not going to scare me with some issues with the marble because Rome's built, Rome's streets are built out of it and it's still beautiful. You know, like the floors at Chatsworth are 400 years old and they're black and white checkerboard marble. Like that's always going to be a thing.

1:03:25Stephanie Abernathy:Which we always love. Yeah. So that's kind of, I think, pulling from those things. And when you're doing a renovation, that would be another big thing I would tell people to think about is, like, is it going to age? If yes, then 5, 10, 20 years from now, you're probably still going to like it. If it doesn't age, I'd question what that means to the future of your materials. That's great. Yeah.

1:03:49Ashley Malone:Yeah, that's solid advice. Thank you. Especially like you're just if you're starting to dive in some deep in, you've gotten a lot out of this. Like my notes are expensive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Those are your big takeaways, Liz. Oh, my gosh. OK, well, first of all, binders. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm an office supply girl. So, yeah, kidding. I'm starting with binders. She's real happy about that. I will say Karen, I remember, did Google spreadsheets and had like tabs for every like she had a paint. i have that yeah so if you're not a paper person we also send it to them digitally smart and we also send it and we have it on site so you definitely want that yeah yeah you want you want the one so that they could open it but absolutely drive and like have them all and like

1:04:36Stephanie Abernathy:labeled and like under no circumstances hop on that instagram trend where people are doing the qr codes they will never do that like no oh like scan this here people do qr codes yes there's this trend my builder and I were laughing at this there's this trend on Instagram that that certain builders are pushing where they're like look we've created this QR binder and you have to scan it and it all pops up on your phone and I'm like they won't even open the binder that I've handed to them they are not scanning a QR code no nobody Liz and I know this better than anyone no one uses a

1:05:07Ashley Malone:QR code no guys they're never going to use it period I feel like the best we did was painter's tape and like sharpie yes like on yeah this here yeah that like and it was just written on tape but like it was measured out and we would measure and tape things and when the walls weren't finished we were like writing on the drywall like yeah so we're for like sconce placements and like um i will go and write on the drywall yes and i will be like here and here's the measurement yeah here's where you do that for paint to like go paint i would prefer to just take like the paper has the paint swatch on it and tape it on the wall tape it on the wall okay yeah okay sorry binders okay no so yeah so bind binders is step one to get those um and then asking chat gpt could like even before i meet with my architect and just kind of say like what are what are the things that um are going to be my biggest question points pain points all of just kind of all of that um figuring out my appliances oh yeah yeah that was the first thing we ordered i remember we like chose our builder and i think they literally were like you need to go and this was pandemic times but they were like you need to literally go today and like pick your appliances and i was like that feels kind of crazy like and they were like it was 18 to design the kitchen we have to have it

1:06:30Stephanie Abernathy:yeah and at the time it was 18 months at the time yeah i think ours i think it was 18 months and i

1:06:36Ashley Malone:I think it took that long. Yeah. Yeah. But then figuring out which appliances you want, not just like which fridge do you want, but like, do you want, you know, a microwave drawer versus, you know, the countertop? Or do you want double ovens versus, you know, a range or do you want gas? What features? Gas induction. Yeah. Also, I feel like there are certain appliances that are so expensive to fix. like I have right yeah I had I have two friends who both have had sub-zero fridges in their house that the previous person had put in right right now they're 15 years old and so they have to get a replace and they're like it's like ten thousand dollars just to replace this yeah but I can't get a new fridge because it will like it was custom fit for this fridge right so or there how does

1:07:28Stephanie Abernathy:take out that knowing like i'm a huge we're huge sub-zero fans i genuinely believe that they are the premium best product on the market for refrigeration like that's i've i have drink

1:07:40Ashley Malone:in the kool-aid i've guzzled that kool-aid like i love i love me some sub-zero huge sub-zero i went up to their factory too and it's amazing it's i mean like the whole story behind it you

1:07:52Stephanie Abernathy:know if you go in i'm a history person right so i like the history the whole story behind it like Like, you know, this guy invented this so that he could help his son who had diabetes and they could refrigerate his medicine like way back before that was even a thing. I bought the whole education. Didn't have an education. I bought the whole story. I think they're I think they're the best in the market. The thing for me is SubZero is that they can almost always be repaired if you contact with SubZero. They can almost always be repaired and they will last like 20. I mean we've pulled we've pulled Subzeros out of kitchens that we've renovated that are still in perfectly good operating condition that charities will take and they will still get another like good 5-10 years use out of them.

1:08:31Stephanie Abernathy:And they're amazing they're a really good product. So I highly recommend Subzeros.

1:08:35Ashley Malone:But they are pricey. They're very pricey. Yeah. Very pricey.

1:08:38Stephanie Abernathy:Yes.

1:08:39Ashley Malone:Yeah they are pricey. But yes they're a good product. Anyway. Yeah. Well I think that there are trends in appliances too. Like like Okay, so I don't have a dishwasher right now, so I sometimes just go and look at them and drink. Girl, girl. Oh, my God. I love your Bosch.

1:08:58Stephanie Abernathy:Wait, why don't you have a dishwasher right now?

1:08:59Ashley Malone:Because I have a 1930s home that still has the 1930s kitchen.

1:09:04Stephanie Abernathy:Cool. For real. Wait. That's really cool. And you're going to redo that, though. Oh, that's so cool, though. Maybe not as cool. We'll talk in more detail later. She's got a cool old home. She's got a cool one.

1:09:15Ashley Malone:Yeah. There's really nothing. There's nothing. there's yeah it's it's the type of kitchen where all of the countertops are like they're more um furniture pieces versus yeah i mean we'll talk later it's not that cool but but like there's um there are dishwashers that like any cafe has one that is drawers

1:09:41Stephanie Abernathy:yeah so a lot of people really love the drawers they like the drawers that's a thing right now

1:09:45Ashley Malone:But that seems to be like something, if that breaks down, like, is that difficult to replace? I don't know the answer to that yet, though, because I don't think they've been in the market. They're so new. No, the drawers are still the same size as a dishwasher. So, like, they've got 24 inches, the width on them. And, like, Sub-Zero does not make them. Because when I was up at that, I think it was Sub-Zero. Well, everybody was like, can you please make the drawers? But they are kind of safer if you ever think about it. Because if you have this dishwasher that comes out and goes on the floor, Or if you have toddlers or you're washing dishes and you back up and it's really easy to trip over.

1:10:19Ashley Malone:Or if it's a small space and that door.

1:10:23Stephanie Abernathy:Have you seen the new countertop dishwashers? Like it goes in your countertop? I'm putting one of those in my scullery. I'm really excited about it. No.

1:10:32Ashley Malone:I feel like to do more research.

1:10:34Stephanie Abernathy:It's a new appliance. It's a new appliance. So like fixability, I have no idea. I could be totally messing myself over for later. But it's this thing where, you know, it's trendy right now to wash your fruit. I mean, well, we all wash our fruit, but it's trendy right now to like... We wash our fruit? We didn't know that. It's trendy right now to like only wash your fruit and vegetables. It's a thing that everyone's saying. You can't just wash them with water, you guys. It's not good enough, apparently. So this little in-a-counter dishwasher does the dishes, but it also has a fruit and vegetable washing setting, like setting.

1:11:05Stephanie Abernathy:And you could just stick everything in there and it washes it for you. It goes in your countertop. I am going to go after this. Cuckoo. Yeah. That's crazy. I mean, I'll let you know. Contact me in a couple years. I'll tell you how it's going. I bet you can be loving it. Loving it. I'm so pumped. That's so fun. But yeah, with new products, I think that is you're taking a little bit of a risk because you don't know.

1:11:27Ashley Malone:Right. But they do. I think they're making them like 18 inch if it's like a smaller space. And then they have the 24. So a dishwasher is always standard 24 inch width. I don't care. Okay. Love that. Any across the grid. You just totally sold me. I'm good. Bosch is really good. I love Bosch. We have a lot of COS and we sell a lot of ASCOs.

1:11:46Stephanie Abernathy:I like my Bosch dishwasher a lot.

1:11:50Ashley Malone:I really like the top tray. I love the silver tray. That is really nice. Both of my sisters have Bosch. So yeah, I'm super familiar with them. Bosch is known for their dishwasher.

1:11:59Stephanie Abernathy:For a long time. They're really good. Does anybody here use their sterling silver? Do you use it like on a day-to-day basis? Do you have it? Do you use it? I use it and I put it in the dishwasher. I have it, but I don't use it daily. Every day. It's just, it's our, it's what we use. Yeah. Put it in the dishwasher. It doesn't look as pretty as it once did, but I highly recommend for, I feel like the demographic of people that might be listening to this podcast might have some Sterling Silver sitting around somewhere. I'm just telling you, girl, put that in your drawer. Use it every day. Yeah. Just use it every day.

1:12:29Stephanie Abernathy:Like it's not, it's not doing anything for you sitting in the closet. In the box. It's true. Just use it. Yeah. You could take it to a silversmith later and have it repolished up to its perfection, but I never regretted deciding to use it and put it in the dishwasher. It does, like, feel better. Just so much better. Food tastes different off of silver. Yeah, it really does. It does.

1:12:51Ashley Malone:It takes you off, though? I'm like, I really, I get really weirded out by overly heavy silverware. I hate that. Yes. So that I love that about Sterling. Like, it's light, which is nice. Yeah. Okay, sorry. Continue with your list of your taste of the last act. I still have more. The binder, the appliances. Yes. Start with your limitations. So go with, you know, what you either have for budget or what you have available to you. We talked about stone a lot. Okay. Looking at your calendar and figuring out when the biggest pain points of your renovation are going to be and kind of plan around that.

1:13:34Ashley Malone:I love that. I'm just probably just doing a whole recap of this whole episode. No, I love it. This is great. I was going to say, I would say one thing, when you're planning a renovation, if you do not want LOLs, just think about Thanksgiving and Christmas. Because there's going to be lots of LOLs during those two months. You're almost going to have very little things happening between Thanksgiving. Got it. During those, like, month and a half. So just be forewarned. Yeah, that's a hard one. It's a good expectation. I mean, kind of dumb. But think about that. And, you know, everybody wants everything for Christmas or the holidays.

1:14:07Ashley Malone:Oh, right. You need to start in July. Yes. Or earlier so we can make sure that that can happen. Yeah, January is great.

1:14:16Stephanie Abernathy:January is a good time. And I would say on that, when you're talking about calendaring, if you can get a contractor, a general contractor you're working with will say, sure, I'll put together a schedule for you that shows you. I would say that's a big green flag for a good contractor because most of the time they will, and they take notes. Most of the time they will not, they will absolutely not give you a schedule, which prevents you from even doing some of those things that you're talking about. Right. But yeah, a big green flag when interviewing contractors is will they give you a timeline?

1:14:51Ashley Malone:Oh, that's awesome. Okay, keep going. Okay, keep going. Okay. I apologize. No, love the notes. No, jump in. Yeah. We like that. I mean, well, the calendar is super important, too, because you have to budget and plan for those times that you will have to move out of the space. Yes. Even if it's, if you're trying to live through it, even if it's for a shortened period of time.

1:15:11Stephanie Abernathy:And you have to budget and plan for the times that you have to pay your bills. I mean, I think that's a huge thing that's frustrating and difficult when you're trying to get a schedule and they won't give you a schedule. And you're like, well, when are you going to bill me for this? Because I need to know. Yeah. I just have money available to give to you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1:15:27Ashley Malone:Operate where, like, it's on, depending on what they've done, that's when they get their next payment. So you should know, kind of, like, understand. Yeah, yeah. Is it this month or is it three months or is it, you know? Yeah. Wow. Okay, if you're living through the renovation, have 100 % of the materials either on site or on standby and ready to install. And I think that wraps it up. I think we've, I mean, we covered so much. This has been so helpful. yeah yeah of course anytime i feel like we're always still learning on renovations too you're

1:16:04Stephanie Abernathy:always like learning something i think if you i think my last thought in kind of talking with what you're laying out there is as you go into your kitchen renovation i would say as you're planning your team and you're getting your contractor together and talking to your architect um ask them to give you materials list you know if if you're designing this yourself and you're working through trying to do the binders and everything yourself, chat will help you. But ask them what they're going to want to know. And sometimes the builders will even give you a schedule of when they want to know decisions by.

1:16:36Stephanie Abernathy:And that's really helpful. But still go ahead and pre-plan all that. Don't wait for their deadlines. Right. Because their deadlines are usually like, well, I need to know this faucet because it's going in next week. So you don't want to wait until you're going to know a month before that because you've got to order it.

1:16:52Ashley Malone:Even though they kind of schedule, schedules change constantly. I feel traumatic for you. So like maybe this plumber could actually get out two weeks early and they told you you didn't have it for two weeks. And then you're getting phone calls and you're having to make really fast decisions really quick. Yeah. Happens a lot. Happens a lot. It happens a lot. Yeah.

1:17:09Stephanie Abernathy:One thing I don't think we went through is like red flags on contractors. Yes. Give us those. I would say my biggest red flags with general contractors are if they don't have a clear how they charge. So like if they're not either telling you we are cost plus and in my contract it says I'm going to show you my cost and then I add my 20 % or whatever it is. That's kind of industry standard. I think it's like 10 to 20. If that's not what they do, I'd be a little bit weirded out. you know, or at least lay it out really clearly in their contract with you on how they're charging because the industry has so many professionals in it, some really amazing, some that might do okay work, but I'm not sure the ethics behind some of the ways they're charging.

1:18:03Stephanie Abernathy:So I would be, I would just be super clear in the contract. And if you feel any ick at any point in time with your contractor, I would really, really dial in why that is and not be afraid to walk away. And I I think that's the biggest thing that people have. They get in the middle of a situation or they're in the middle of a renovation. And something has gone, the contractor's clearly done something that doesn't feel ethical with the way they're charging or something. And they're afraid to walk away. Don't be afraid to walk away. Because that's my biggest red flag.

1:18:30Ashley Malone:What's your biggest red flag? I was just going to bounce off of that. I was going to say, I feel like if we're the designers or like one of the first people to hire, I would say like a lot of my clients have had me read the contract. Yes. With the contractor and like look at allowances and be like, does this look right? Usually allowances do not. Yeah.

1:18:51Stephanie Abernathy:Laying that out. I would say another. Understanding it. Understanding that. And then another red flag is, you know, that they won't, that they're really not able or willing to give you any kind of timeline or time understanding. I think that makes me a little uncomfortable because if you can't even give me any type of basis for, yeah, I'd like to start this around this time or we're waiting on permits. Permits should be about this time and then we can start here. If they're not willing to have that discussion, that makes me uncomfortable. And then another huge red flag is if they don't, if they themselves are not keeping a small enough amount of projects where they can be on site a lot, they either need to have a supervisor who's able to be on site.

1:19:31Stephanie Abernathy:And if they can't do either of those things, then I kind of questioned how many issues we will have during the project.

1:19:40Ashley Malone:I was going to say my number one rule with contractors is to never assume. Yes, never assume. I always reiterate that multiple times, to never, ever, ever assume that that is what the answer is. Because it'll usually come back and bite you. Do you mean in terms of picking choices? do you mean like oh yeah for sure don't leave it up to them yeah if you're like i don't know

1:20:05Stephanie Abernathy:what hvac even i want you just put whatever you want up there no no what no when i say don't

1:20:13Ashley Malone:pursue it's like you'd be like well surely the tile guy knows how that i like i'm trying to say like that you want something where to start the tile yeah like because like it's his job right like don't assume no you need to be there and be like are we do a lot of tile we do tile diagrams we do show them where to start that's another binder okay tile tile binder it's child there's a lot of assuming with tile there's a lot of assumptions yeah any kind of and don't assume like you know um where they're gonna place like electrical outlets or like do you want to sew light do you want um i i think that's the biggest don't assume that everybody knows what you were thinking and that was like how it should be done because they might have a whole different way of doing it right is that a better way to yeah no no i think that helps like assuming where the tiles should go that seems to your point like a duh kind of thing like you would assume that they would That's a good point.

1:21:20Stephanie Abernathy:Or assume the grout color. Assume that they know what grout color should go with this tile. I think that's a big...

1:21:27Ashley Malone:But I feel like that's a selection.

1:21:28Stephanie Abernathy:This is more like a... But I feel like I'm always surprised by how many people... Like an execution. ...are willing to allow their contractor to select some of these things that they didn't even know they were supposed to select. You know, they'll be like, I didn't... I don't care. Like, just put the grout color. Because they've seen a million pictures of this particular tile they've chosen with this. It always has the same grout. So they're like, well, surely they'll use that.

1:21:47Ashley Malone:Don't ever assume. Or even like, it's like we have all these plans, like don't assume that they've read these plans. That they've read the plans. Yeah. So make sure that they have like, I don't, even though we do have these plans on site, I, maybe it's just a control thing for me. I don't know, but I like to go over it with the subs and make sure. And just double check.

1:22:07Stephanie Abernathy:That is kind of in picking your team. If a contractor we're working with doesn't happen to have a supervisor that's willing to be on site and they are themselves not on site all day, every day, then that's kind of where teams like ours or other teams who are off for project management services come in where you are on site and you're filling that gap. So that's kind of something to take into account. If you don't have someone on your side that's willing to project manage for you or you can't do it yourself, it really becomes critical that the contractor is doing that. I think the other thing for me that's a major red flag when working with contractors is do they work in tandem with the other people you've chosen?

1:22:54Stephanie Abernathy:Like are you – is this some random guy that your architect's never heard of before? Why is that? You know, that doesn't mean it's bad. That doesn't that doesn't mean they're bad. But I'd ask those questions and I'd be asking for references of other people they'd worked with and trying to understand because we all want to save money. So sometimes we we really want to go with the lowest bid. You know, this guy has told me he can get it done for, you know, 30 percent less than these other bids that I've gotten.

1:23:22Ashley Malone:Yeah.

1:23:23Stephanie Abernathy:You have to know why. Yeah, you have to know why, because oftentimes I find the reason that this bid is so much lower than these other bids is because they have not taken into account a lot of conditions you're going to run into. We've played this game with clients. You have there are some really expensive contractors for sure, and they are just more. They're just more. That's you know, you're getting a different level of service. You're getting a different experience. It's just it's a different thing. You get what you pay for. But if you got the middle bid guy and then you've got this lower bid guy and they're still off by like 10 or 15 percent.

1:23:58Stephanie Abernathy:I got to ask why and what has this guy not taken into account that this guy has? And a lot of times it's the detail work like, oh, yeah, I've always worked in here in Atlanta, Ansley Park. And I know that the floors and the foundations always have these issues. so I've already factored into your budget that we're going to have to correct this before we can do your kitchen renovation. But this guy never worked at Ansley Park, kind of up-and-coming guy. He didn't factor that in. So at the end of the day, if you actually take what you spent with the lower guy and what the other guy, sometimes it's actually more.

1:24:33Ashley Malone:It's actually, we've played that. That's a really good, like finding someone who's done your, again, if you have a 1930s house, you need somebody that knows his work. Just like the 1920s, 1940s house that we're doing. You have to have somebody because there is a lot of trials and tribulations that come with historic homes.

1:24:50Stephanie Abernathy:Yeah. If you get a really low bid, I would really wonder what he didn't include as opposed to Arca's price is just that much less because labor is labor is labor. So that's where we've done that exercise with multiple client projects where we go back just for our knowledge and we price. Yeah, you like look pricing out. And sometimes it's more because also maybe this new up and coming guy, he didn't he's never worked with marble before. He usually is only his subs work with ceramic tile and floor and decor stuff. And that's great. That's fine. But you've actually specified this like thirty dollar square foot marble.

1:25:27Stephanie Abernathy:And he didn't he doesn't know some of the nuances to that. And like you need to put self leveling down. You need to do some of these things. and so now you've got a mess on your hands and you go but you but you didn't know and he goes oh yeah i mean you know what do you do in that circumstance right and every other thing that

1:25:45Ashley Malone:you want to put into your kitchen relies on that guy so you then settle because yeah exactly it's like well do i need to exactly yeah yeah oh god you did remind me uh yeah i know they laid the tile in our downstairs bathroom and we were like, this one is all up and down. This one is for the floor. And we got there and the one little inset for your shampoo, they were like, we put that tile up there. And I was like, I didn't tell you to do that. I did not want that highlighted. I did not want that nook like more decorative. I wanted it to blend with. And it was one of those that they were like, well, we can redo it.

1:26:27Ashley Malone:And you're like. I like. Yeah, you reminded me of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think. They had a little fun. That was my mind. And I was like, no one told you you had fun. And if you try. You're not here to make design choices. No. Yeah. Why do they think that they should? Oh, my gosh. I think that's what I was going to say is like when you were talking about is the project manager. But there are things that change on site. Yeah. And maybe this is my control. But like, I want to make sure that I'm making those decisions. Yeah. Not somebody else. And then I come in, I'm like, because it's a lot more expensive to go put it back.

1:27:02Ashley Malone:Oh, exactly. We'd have to go find more of the marble, and it was going to match. And I was like, no, we're done. It's now done. You did this. Thanks. Yeah. And I think that's where. And there are things that happen like that, too. And it's like, why?

1:27:15Stephanie Abernathy:Why did you do this? A good team is important. Communication. Because if we know, if we're working with a contractor, and we're out of state, and we're trusting that he's going to call us about those things the national project or the key west project went so well because the builder actually did like they didn't make decisions on

1:27:33Ashley Malone:their own they called and said hey we've run into this problem kentucky builder he calls so they call and they ask the question that's you know that's needs to be communicated to the builder

1:27:44Stephanie Abernathy:like you are not responsible for making any decisions i need you to call me or call my whoever is doing this for you. Like that's like, that needs to be communicated. Yeah. Yeah. And if, if there should be a pre-construction meeting with every team member there at the same time and you're all going over these things, pre-construction meeting. Very important.

1:28:05Ashley Malone:Writing it down. Another advice is to retain 20 % of your budget. Oh yeah.

1:28:12Stephanie Abernathy:Please. Whatever your budget is, take 20 to 30%. And I would say 1930s home,

1:28:15Ashley Malone:you might want to retain 30%. Okay. that's good yeah well that helps no it's you'd rather know I'd rather know that you're gonna find because we can't x-ray the walls we have no idea what's behind them and or if the foundation is like how the foundation is you know concrete it's more than likely wrong and oh believe me believe me when we first bought the house every contractor that came through would would say like huh I've never seen that before so to 30 you're maybe 35 just give it your credit okay 35 % I'm just saying I mean like that's what we had to tell our client especially in this 1920s because it was also not taken care of very properly yeah the 1940s one was taken care of there had been some renovations but this one had not been and so I was like you probably want to reserve 30 % just because there's a lot more that we just don't know what's behind yeah yeah and we're at space you got extra budget yeah

1:29:17Stephanie Abernathy:And you want to be really careful, right? Because you don't want to start dipping into that 20 to 30 percent you've reserved before construction starts. Like that truly is during construction because that's where your budget comes from. If you if somebody messes up your tile and you're like, no, I will never be able to live with this. We need to get this fixed. Like, yeah, that's where that that's where that's a good point.

1:29:40Ashley Malone:Yeah, we've opened up floors and found that the structural supports, you know, like I don't. The spacing's wrong. Yeah. The joists. It was the beam was, it was kind of, it was out here, which, you know, they're always like the posts of the beam are supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. So we had to replace all that. And that was what was holding, it was a main part of the house. Right. So I was like, it was really lucky that we did this renovation and we found this because you never know what could have happened in like a year or so or, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this reality check.

1:30:15Ashley Malone:Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, thank you. Anytime. Can we tell you all the things? Yeah, I love it. I love it. Man, I'm still... I need you to explain your comment about wanting to do it again. Or have to come back to that in another episode. Yeah, we'll unpack that later.

1:30:35Stephanie Abernathy:Also, do you want to change your house again now? No, I want to... She wants to build another house. Oh, yeah.

1:30:41Ashley Malone:That's right. Yeah. It's just so fun. You don't even know. Now. Even now, like, really? Right. That's what I mean. It's like, I learned so much, but like, I'm not going to build another house. No. Yeah. But then I keep seeing lots around the neighborhood. I'm like, could that be our 2026 fun plan? I feel like it better. We can just like, live there and sell ours. Like, what if we like it even more? What if I want to try a different style? Yeah. What if I realize I don't like tall ceilings? You're feeling bored. Yeah. All that. Inspired. Just build over. I love it. Or that. That would probably make more sense.

1:31:20Ashley Malone:Yeah. You can get your fix at my house. Come on. It's like a draw. Stephanie, Ashley, thank you all so much. Thank you. This was wonderful. Oh, my gosh. I feel like we covered so much grafts. We did. And thank you for sharing the unvarnished, you know, trials and tribulations of innovating with us. My pleasure.

1:31:43Stephanie Abernathy:Yeah. All right. Tell everyone where they can find you, follow you, and see your work. You can find us at www.studiowellington.com or you can find us at studio underscore Wellington on Instagram.

1:32:00Ashley Malone:And that's our show. You can find all of the show notes on our blog, howtodecorate.com slash podcast. To send in a decorating dilemma, email your questions to podcast at ballarddesigns.net so we can help you with your space. And of course, be sure to follow us on social media at Ballard Designs. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback. Until next time. Happy decorating.