Ep. 484: Scott Sottile | Ferguson & Shamamian

28:24But there were amazing ideas. And so we actually literally cut away pieces of the building. We studied them and rebuilt the building. And they, you know, part of the, when rebuilding the building is they wanted slightly taller ceilings, which we have another house in this book that an owner that wanted like taller ceilings. Oh my gosh, can't wait to get to that one. You know, and we, so we knew that we were just going to start over, but the goal was to make it feel like anybody who left the property for two or three years would come back and say, wow, you did a nice renovation. Wow. Okay. The other part, that reminds me of the horse farm where you did tear the house down.

29:01Mostly because I found the story of the homeowner to be so funny, where she had this dream from, you know, her early adulthood where she wanted to buy a horse farm in Virginia and then moved to Ohio and her family said, if you move to Virginia, no one's coming with you. You're on your own. I love that. Yeah. And so she found, she basically created a country house in Ohio. So tell everybody about that project because I thought that was, I mean, you could have fooled me if I had just seen the pictures. It looks so bucolic and it, you know. Well, this is where you realize physical form has intellectual meaning and visual recognition, right?

29:49This is a house that has a two-story porch on the back with two-story columns and a low flat roof and screened porches. And how could that not screen the South? How does that not, you know, how does that not, you know, recall the South for you, you know, in some form? you know it has Chippendale railings it's white painted colonial federal style it's symmetrical it's all the things that you know if somebody says think of a farmhouse in Virginia these are the kinds of things that you begin to think about and so there's language that's involved in these things and so you take that thing that you recognize and you take it and you, okay, and then you start adapting it.

30:40You say, okay, well, we're going to be cold weather. We're in a cold weather climate. So we're going to add a lot more fireplaces and we're going to think about how the rooms are arranged a little differently. And we're going to, you know, connect the garage and keep the barn close by as opposed to buildings being way far apart. We're going to do what happens more in northern climates where buildings are closer related to each other because you just in the winter, you don't want to have to walk as far. And, you know, the barns and houses grow together to connect each other, to keep the inclement weather away.

31:12So you start mixing. Now you start, you know, sort of like mixing other languages in a little bit of a way. But so I think the physical form, you know, is very clearly meant to evoke, you know, a southern farmhouse. Yeah, you're right. I've never really thought about it that way. how there's this visual language that's telling you a story before you've really... That's the great thing about tradition. That's why we love working in traditions, because we've all experienced the world. We've all experienced it with our eyes and all of our senses, but our eyes especially. And you take in these images, either through physical travel or watching Gone with the Wind or whatever it may be, and you go, okay, right.

32:01I have a cultural and a historical reference that you've developed in your own life, as well as what you can learn from other people having done things. And sometimes not even consciously. Correct, yeah. Sorry. No, no, no. Exactly. That's the through line. And that's why, you know, that's, I think that's why we're also afraid of losing tradition because there are commonalities that exist for us. There are things that we all think are beautiful that are good proportions and traditional forms. And there's a story of our past that's carried forward this way. You know, this is, it's history that becomes real and drives us forward.

32:51Right. I also, I think it was in the project that was in South Carolina, the Lowcountry, but you talk about how the style was sometimes really dictated by the budget, frankly, of the first builders, right? So like something might have been really simple, not because they valued simplicity, but because they couldn't afford more than that. And so it just makes me think that some of it's like that the cultural story of America is really told through the architectural style. And that's not and that's that's the value of savings. There are things to learn. No, there are things to learn. Right. You know, they're textbooks that can teach us things.

33:40And you be also you can learn a lot of great lessons about what that's the great thing. America is diverse. America is diverse in regions and in climates. And so architecture responds to that. You know, the raw materials that people had to build when they first started settling various parts of this country, those differ greatly. And there were also different times. Los Angeles is built completely differently because then it would have been, you know, Los Angeles proper, you know, is sort of a city that's less than 100 years old. it's not going to be the same as colonial Virginia where you know people arriving on boats with like literally like not taking down trees and trying to figure out like how to make primitive huts whereas okay this is Los Angeles in the 1920s we have bulldozers and we have mills and we can order things from catalogs and you know those are very different moments to be building and they teach us different things about our ingenuity and what people want to you know what how people want to live.

34:47I was thinking throughout this book how, I'm totally changing the subject, how great of contractors y 'all work with. And it strikes me that architects probably can recognize a great contractor very quickly because you work with so many of them. And how would you, so how would you tell our listeners who, if they're in the early phases of their own project, to look for a great contract or to know if they found one? I'm going to use a different word. And this will help describe it. Look for a good builder. Okay. Contractor like implies the guy that's holding all the contracts for subcontractors and it's paperwork.

35:27So we often talk about like general contractors or even construction managers is a term that's out there. And you realize that's not what I want. I want a good builder. I want somebody that knows how. I want somebody that knows how things get put together. I want somebody that's going to appreciate the art of building and going to want to add their own experience and knowledge of having put other buildings together to bear on what it is that we're doing today now.

36:01Scott J. Sottile:Brussels clean up nicely at Sweetgreen. Maple glazed, roasted, and edges perfectly caramelized. Sweetgreen's fall harvest is back on the menu and the season's most overlooked little green vegetable is dressed to be devoured. You know what to do. Order on the Sweet Green app. I'm not doing my job if I'm not learning from them and they're not doing their job if they're not teaching me something. How do you know if you found a good builder though? Look at their other work. Look at, go, this is the best advice always is to go tour the work that they've done before. Talk to the people that they've worked before.

36:36See what the experience was like. What was the process of building like? and then go and ask to see something that's five years old or 10 years old and see how it's held up. I love that idea. Give me your 10-year-old project. Exactly. Yeah. Because, you know, the thing that's six months old, the paint's new. Yeah. I mean, Taryn, I heard your story about your soffits and this pressure washing to get the moss off of it. You know, like five years old, I shouldn't be having to have things look like this yet. We'll do everything from building things out of ASAC. So you can take and use, it's a polymer material, so it's synthetic, you know, but it's paintable.

37:21So it's something that's either up on the roof, like a balustrade on the top of a roof, or trims and window trims that are like 25 or 30 feet in the air that are going to be very difficult to get back up to for people to maintain properly. Or they're in a harsh climate like Maine or the coast in Southampton. They're kind of indestructible. And from the distance on the ground, you know, you can't be seen and they can be built out of recycled materials. And, you know, you're not chopping down because the alternative is to use old growth wood or dense growth wood, which is a limited resource. so you say okay i'm going to try to limit the use of my precious resources to use things that could be recycled um you know that's one aspect of it and the other is you know where all of these buildings are still built with insulation and they're still built you know with uh modern conditioning inside and they still have to keep the moisture out and the air you know barriers properly sealed.

38:30So buried inside all of those shingles and the old clabberds that are meant to look like the low country, hand-tuned stuff, there's all the modern technology to keep the building performing well. Right. Like the good stuff. The inside of the sandwich that you don't need to know about, but you'll know if it's not there. Correct. In five years, you'll be very upset if it's not there. And how hard is it for you to, I mean, this is your job, so I'm sure you're like, it's not that hard. I do it every day. But to really marry elements that exist, to copy them almost. Like say you do have some piece on a window that's gone bad, but the other windows are still good.

39:17How are you guys replicating them? Molding combs. Like literally, like literally taking and understanding how the original thing was built and finding a very good craftsman to help replicate it um and when when necessary adapting it you know like okay great the original house had a had a window molding profile or something that was kind of distinctive but we want to we're actually you know we're not remaking single pane windows because we want to thermally we're building this kind of perform thermally well we're using double pane glass and insulated glass. And so we adapt it. We ask a window maker to make us a custom profile that, again, it helps.

39:57And it's in those sort of details that you go, is it new or is it old? Like, you know, like, I see new glass, but that's not like the standard stock profile that I can get from Marvin. So how did that happen? You know, it's going that little bit of extra to do something that

40:19just refines the detail that much more. Obviously, your clients have, I'm sure they have a budget. Everyone has a budget, but you know, these are grand houses. But would you say that the difference between a stock window and like that custom profile in the window, is it as expensive as I would think it would be? Or I'm wondering if there are things that you could do that maybe aren't as cost prohibitive as you would expect, that would really make a big difference in the character of your home, something that maybe the rest of us haven't thought about or would think to do, but that would make a big difference?

41:00Yeah, every one of the stock window manufacturers, most of them, they have a slightly higher end division that costs a little bit more, but not astronomically more, that gets into some of these details. Like Marvin has a historic window series or their signature series that allows you to, you know, get closer to historic profiles. This is that they sell these to go into historic buildings. So looking at, you know, manufacturers and what they asking them what they would do if they were working in a historic building, they already probably have some idea about that, that they can direct you to like, okay, the outside of this should be a putty stop, which is, you know, glass was held into the wood frame with putty.

41:43So there's a diagonal line or diagonal shape that makes that putty stop profile. And that's what's on the outside. And on the inside is the pretty shaped thing. So like a lot of manufacturers, Pella, Marvin, Colby and Colby, they all have these. They know that how built windows were traditionally built and they have some versions of that in their catalogs. Smart. And I want to take Caroline's question and ask it a different way. Biggest bang to get the historic look we want, like items you would put into a home or details that you would put in to give that historic feel that would give. Yeah, that budget wise would still be really elevated.

42:31yeah uh uh door trims bases and casings and cornices you know again going there's a wide there's there's stuff you can get at home depot uh and there's probably one or two of those shapes that are historically based and then there's a there's going to be a lumberyard near you that is going to have more historically accurate details that matches the look you're going after or the period of home that your house was built in. And you can just get a lot closer to those. There were pattern books that were made in the 18th, 19th, 20th centuries that describe how these, you know, everything from Benjamin Asher's book about like how drawings or how moldings were to be made to Sears' home kits, you know?

43:19Like, and they all help you get closer to, again, the essence and the DNA in the time period. And they're going to be just a little thicker or a little bigger or a little more shapely or something. And it's that imperceptible thing that you walk in and you go, this just has a little more gravitas or this just has a little more weight than when I go and I just buy the thing that's on the shelf at the big box store. And I take it a good builder will know those sources, right? Yes, exactly. That's a good question for your builder. Yeah. As you're interviewing, going, okay, if I want to make this a little more historically relevant or feel a little more historically accurate, what would I do?

44:04Smart. Ask and see what they say. Yeah. Okay. Except if we have any builders listening, they're going to know the right answer. Good. Good. That's what we want. That's true. That's what we want, right? This is not a zero-sum game. This is elevating everybody. I was just going to ask Scott's favorite books. For say, you kind of want to learn more about this. And you said you have been in on this since the womb. So I feel like you had some books that were influential somewhere that maybe someone could pick up to kind of learn a little more about. Yeah, there's actually, there's a, Marian Kusada wrote a book called like Getting the Details Right.

44:42It's a new book, a newish book. It's actually really great. And it sort of talks exactly about this idea about what makes something, which would be the traditional way to build something versus the like uninformed or the guesswork way to build something. And it's sort of like how a dormer should be detailed or how the trim should look. So there's that. Then there's books called the White Pine Series that record historic buildings. And they're from all over the country, mostly on the eastern side of the country. But I think they may actually all be on the eastern side of the country. but again it's going from colonial into uh the 19th century um again describing details so i used to just go to the library and pour over books and i would go to the architecture section and i would just sit there and just look through the thing which is requires you to go to a building and touch old books just something we all need to do more of but you can still you can still do it And honestly, even if you get yourself, you can get yourself into an Amazon, you know, it'll say these books are related to that book.

45:58You know, you can sort of get into that, you know, going to Abe Books and looking at the historic book section. But there's also, there is a website called the Library of Congress, the library.gov. scott.gov library.gov there's a historic american building survey which is a record of major american buildings and minor american houses um and you can just get into it it's photographs and drawings and uh it was actually a new deal program habs is how it's called h-a-b-s historic American building survey. Yeah. Yeah.

46:46But it's still being done today. They do it in, there's courses in colleges and schools. Like I, you know, where they're still recording buildings, old buildings. Yeah.

47:01That's very cool. I would think that if you're, town has a college with an architecture school, their bookstore would probably have a lot of this, right? Like, a regular bookstore isn't going to have. Not a regular bookstore. A university bookstore, especially if they have an architecture program, would have a lot of this. But, you know, even new architectural schools don't teach tradition the same way. So, you know, I think that you might be, again, really looking to go to old sources like you looking you know honestly ebay i bought a lot of great old books on ebay um historic architecture books you can just get yourself down that rabin warren of you know the uh the good kind of doom scrolling on the internet have you always been into traditional architecture just speaking of the you know i yeah yeah yeah it just it just resonated with me like i have an appreciation for contemporary modern architecture i i can appreciate it as is art and understand what it's trying to say or do.

48:04But it's just not the language that's native to me. It's not the thing that resonates in my soul. It's, you know, like it's, I studied it in school and very quickly left it and studied architectural history and preservation instead and then went to get a traditional education in architecture. You know, so yes, it's intrinsic. It's just what I'm highly responsive to. Do you have any favorite architects? John Russell Pope, someone who's sort of at this cusp of, in American architecture, he built houses, he built beautiful public buildings, the National Gallery in DC is one of my favorite buildings.

48:47It has this highly stripped classicism. This is like 1940. It's like right before, it's like one of the last classical buildings in the United States on a grand scale. So he's right there. It's sort of the end of something. There's that, you know, and then there's all the greats that we love here that are heroes, David Adler, Delaware and Aldrich, that were, you know, great American house builders from the McKinney and White, of course, you know, building houses in the last, the turn of the last century. You know, I have to admit that my love of architecture is also through houses. Like, that's always what I've been fascinated by.

49:24It was not one that said, oh, I want to build libraries or schools or churches. Like, I was like just fascinated by houses, home. I was the one that would like get myself into trouble because my parents would take me over to their friend's house and I'd start wandering around because I wanted to explore. And they're like, you can't do that. But look what you look at the success you became. See? Sulfur. Yeah. Is there any architecture details or maybe periods that you dislike historically? You know, the heavy Victorian stuff is very hard for me. the thing that's dark brown and drippy moldings. And yeah, I find that so dour, you know, like, and I find that hard, I find that hard to make current or modern or fresh.

50:13So, you know, the Gothic is like that. Whereas Georgian stuff, you can lighten it up. You can, you can make it feel fresh. Colonial stuff, the same way you can sort of boil it down to its essence and you can get to like this idea of sort of primitive American architecture that somehow kind of feels cool and modern at the same time. What about Victorian architecture and like New Orleans and stuff? Again, I can appreciate it, but it's just not, you know, like I, it feels heavy. It feels heavy and very weighty. It is very hard. With everyone we've interviewed and so many wonderful interior designers, I do feel like you're spot on that that is always the hardest to integrate into today.

51:00yeah um because it is so heavy tutor is like that too small windows dark beams you know you kind of go hmm that feels heavy that's just not what we're about right we like we want bigger every i don't know what client has now come to us and asked for bigger windows yeah it feels depressing like it does it's like you're like i don't want a darker room yeah i mean this was the thing this you can actually date buildings by the size of glass and so glass was a hard expensive thing to make, you know? And as glass became more and more expansive and we could air condition buildings, it's just what we naturally have responded to do.

51:38We want more light. Yeah. What would you say someone should ask themselves, like a potential client, if they were coming to you or going to another architect, what are some questions they should ask themselves before embarking on a renovation or deciding whether to build a new building? what do i want versus what do i need you know try to get it out of being aspirational and get it into the realistic get into like how are you really going to function you know what do you really need and this you know this also answers the question quite often you know because it even happens at this scale sometimes am i going to resell this like what would other people want i wouldn't worry about it like again get into it what what what do you want what do you need How do you make it work for your family?

52:28You know, where do you want to have breakfast in the morning to where do you want to put the kids book bags to where do you want to have your guests, you know, have cocktails at six o 'clock? And again, what are you really going to do versus what do you just imagine that you're going to do? Right. Like you just, yeah, you validate us because I think every designer as well has said a similar of being authentic. A new kitchen isn't going to make you a great cook. Right. Like, I mean. No, and so if really, like, if it's really about, like, where do you order out from the most and where do you want to put the food out?

53:12Like, it's about, it's about, it's another entertaining room to display and have guests in, as opposed to, are you really a chef and do you really need to make it? You know, how many steps is it from the kitchen to the, you know, from the sink to the range to the refrigerator? How much can you, you know, create that efficiency versus, is it really just about being pretty? And, you know, like, is it another, is it a living room? And if you don't entertain in a small space, you're probably not going to also entertain in a large space, right? You're just not that person. You're just not, you're a home, you just want to be in your home.

53:45That's fine. But don't design your house for a party that you're never going to have. Don't design your house for a party that you may never have or that you only have twice a year. Yeah. Yeah, don't do that. Because that's a lot of wasted resource. Yeah. And it might make it uncomfortable for every other 300, you know, the other 362 days a year. Exactly. And that's why, you know, a lot of our houses we are constantly dealing with as we're laying out, especially in new build, that we have small spaces and big spaces that you want to try to make it flexible that you can, that it can be, you know, a lot of it is, there's a lot of families that are designing these things for young children, but they want to try to live in it.

54:26They want to try to imagine what it's like living in it when their children have children and they're still in this house. So how does it work for two people versus how does it work for six people versus how does it work, you know, on holidays when there's 24 people? Do you have any advice for that? Because that is something we hear a lot. yeah varying scales you know that you want to create small places to sit you know you want to be able to you and one other person can have an intimate conversation you need a number of places to do that in the house and that could be a bay window in the kitchen you know that could be the way that the furniture is grouped in a living room yes you have a big living room that can accommodate a lot of people but you also have a small group that turns itself to the fireplace so that your back is to the sofa and the six other chairs.

55:19So it can be how you arrange things and how you scale things. Great, you have a big living room that you're never going to go into, but make sure that you build a small library that's kind of a snug, that works for putting up your feet and watching TV or reading a good book.

55:40Hi, Ballard Ladies and Scott. I'm Katie and I need your help with our primary bedroom. We've lived here a few years and this room has just been neglected. It feels plain and unfinished. I'd love to paint or wallpaper the walls and I'm drawn to soft pinks and peaches, though I'm open to other directions. I also love the idea of grass cloth for texture and warmth. The room faces south and gets lots of light. One thing I'm unsure about, the ceiling has beams. Do I wallpaper or paint just up to the bottom molding and leave the beams and ceiling white? Windows are my other big challenge. The windows across from the bed are different sizes.

56:10Our neighbors are very close, so I really need privacy. And I want something easy to open and close every day. Roman shades, curtains, woven shades. I don't know where to start. Any thoughts on lighting, layout, art, bedding are very welcome, too. I just need a push. Thank you, Katie. Katie is crazy because her room looks great. I know. That's what I thought. I was like, oh, she's got a really good start. This is, I was like, her room looks nicer than any of mine. yeah so it's i mean great yeah like you said great start katie you um scott you take your stab at it what are your thoughts sure well i can see that katie is not afraid of pattern and color which is great you know the the bed already has a nice mix of things and so i think layering something on the walls is really would be really great i think that she's she's she's got that in her head and she should run with that so she'd think maybe about a patterned wallpaper like Like really consider that something more, because I think that's what she might be interested in when she's saying texture and grass cloth.

57:11She should maybe think about something with multiple colors. They could be plays on the peaches and pinks and, you know, you throw in a green or a blue or something. So it had maybe a floral pattern or a geometric pattern. And I would take it and I would take it up to the molding line. And then I would paint the trims in the room a color and paint the ceiling a soft color that comes from the wall covering. so that all of that vaulted space is not like bright white and feeling highly reflective, but that it can be a little moodier. And so it could be a shade lighter, a shade darker than the background color of the wallpaper.

57:50I think that would be a good start to get the shell of the room and think about what the walls look like and then what the trims look like. And then maybe a third thing, the ceiling could be a third color. Yeah, I love that idea. go for the wallpaper it'll look great yeah it's a big room it can handle it it can handle it and she can still she's into groupings of art you can still group art on it you know if especially if it's a a smaller scaled you know uh pattern then it's just it's just texture that that what that any kind of grouping of photos can sit on top of okay what about the windows i think she needs drapes, you know, to draw a vertical line around all three windows because of the high sill on the two windows and the low sill on the one, the vertical drapes would give continuity to all three windows.

58:43You know, you'll walk in the room and you'll see the drapes and you'll say, oh, they're all the same. And it'll take you a minute to realize, oh, the sills are different. And there's another trick is to add a little molding or something under each window so that the area under the window is painted a different color than, say, if there's a highly textured wall covering, so that you're not seeing the wallpaper trapped between the drapes, but you're getting the trim color going down to the floor. So again, it's one of those things that helps fool the eye a little bit into making something seem more continuous that isn't.

59:20Smart. What about a Roman shade or like a woven shade with the drapes? I think absolutely that layering. I think she, again, she likes layers and I think she's, I think she's going to be good at it. And I was also thinking that she might want to think about something like bottom up Romans or bottom up shades, you know, so that it looked like that the windows might be on both floors at the neighbors. So she might be getting people looking, you know, in either direction. But if it's the kind of thing where if the shades came up from the bottom and you could leave, you know, more light at the top, that could be nice.

59:55and, you know, maybe you'd see sky or it would be feeling a little brighter. I just want to ask, because there is a little baby window on another wall. Does she have to address that? No. I'd say treat it totally differently. Don't do anything. I just wanted to make sure. Treat it like a piece of art. Smart. Oh, I like that. Well, I do like that. Build a gallery of art around it. Around it? Something like, yeah. I like that idea. Cute. Okay, and then her last question is, thoughts on lighting, layout, art, bedding are all very welcome, too. You're doing a great job. Yeah, exactly. Her furniture plan's perfect.

1:00:29The bed's in the right place. There's a chair that looks comfy that you can throw your clothes on because that's what you really need a chair on in your room. She's got two dressers on the right walls. You know, no, I think any designer would walk in. Any designer, good designer, tasteful designer, traditional designer, is going to walk in and say, you did it right, Katie. Okay, the one thing that I think would look fabulous in here is a huge Noguchi white paper lantern. Oh, yeah. Don't you think that would... Up in that... Yeah, up in that vaulted... Up in that vaulted space. I totally agree.

1:01:00I would go with her, like, geometric kind of bedding. Yeah, and it's totally her vibe. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I agree. She's got a nice little, like, modern kind of West Elmy vibe to her in a little ways. Mm-hmm. Yeah, once she adds a wallpaper and drapery, like, she's going to be done. She's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much, Katie, for the softball. Yeah, right. Exactly. You made it go very easy, Katie. It's such a cool ceiling. It could have been flat. I'm like, you know, take some wins there. That's so cool. Yeah. It's the kind of thing, too, she could even, like, on that vertical wall, she could start putting art up there or a tapestry or something like that, you know, that sort of relates to the wall covering.

1:01:43But she's got, there's interesting ideas and you could either keep it a little calmer, you know, or you could throw some stuff like the light fixture up there and make it visually interesting when you're laying in bed. Well, Scott, thank you so much. This was, it was such a delight to read the book and to chat with you. Well, thanks so much for reading the book, actually. And we don't often read architecture books, right? They're always about, they're more about the pretty pictures. But we tried to give everyone a little something interesting to read this time. Well, any listeners who like also just a pretty picture book, it's just really pretty pictures.

1:02:20There's some beautiful homes in here. So amazing work. Thank you for sharing with everyone. No, such a joy to speak to you both. All right. Tell everyone where they can find you, follow you, see your work and pick up the book. fergusonshamamian.com and at fergusonshamamian with no and at fergusonshamamian on Instagram. Amazing. And the book, I think, is through Rizzoli and Amazon and wherever great books are sold. Yes, Transformations. Transformations. Amazing. Thank you so much. That's our show. Thank you. And that's our show. You can find all of the show notes on our blog, howtodecorate.com slash podcast.

1:02:58To send in a decorating dilemma, email your questions to podcast at BallardDesigns.net so we can help you with your space. And of course, be sure to follow us on social media at Ballard Designs. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And please leave us a review. We'd love to hear your feedback. Until next time, happy decorating!

1:03:38Scott J. Sottile:up.