AMA #19: Collagen vs. Whey Protein, Creatine, Smelling Salts, Stimulants & More

0:00Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science -based tools for everyday life.

0:09I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. I'm also wearing my Roka Redlands glasses Which block both blue light and green light both of which are so -called shortwave length light That's because we are recording this AMA at night and the lights in here are very bright and bright lights At night will quash your melatonin which is the hormone of sleepiness bright lights at night also increase cortisol levels and By blocking those shortwave lengths of light you offset the reductions in melatonin and the increases in cortisol that would otherwise occur And I always make the general recommendation that whether or not you decide to wear blue -green blockers or blue blockers or simply No blockers that you dim your lights at night It will greatly facilitate your transition to sleep and the quality of your sleep So this AMA is part of our premium subscriber channel our premium subscriber channel was started in order to provide support for the standard Huberman Lab podcast which of course comes out every Monday those are full -length episodes We also now have Huberman Lab Essentials episodes which are 30 minute essentials only episodes are just the actionable protocols and the key Mechanisms behind those protocols those come out every Thursday Both the full -length episodes and essentials episodes are available at zero cost to everybody on all standard platforms So YouTube Apple Spotify we now have the full -length episodes on X as well We started the premium channel as a way to generate support for exciting research being done at Stanford School of Medicine on the main campus at Stanford and elsewhere The research that we fund is largely applied research We do fund some basic research, but it's largely applied research meaning it's research that skeared toward developing novel therapeutics for mental health physical health and performance in humans as soon as possible We've already done several rounds of research funding and I'm excited to tell you about the results of those studies as they become Available I'm also pleased to inform you that for every dollar that the Huberman Lab premium channel generates for research studies There are now three matching donors that match that amount the tiny foundation along with two other generous anonymous donors Have agreed to do a dollar for dollar match.

2:19So technically given the number of dollar for dollar matches It's now a dollar for dollar for dollar for dollar match that is for every dollar Provided by the premium channel for research. We have three dollars provided to the premium channels research fund And then we distribute that to various investigators as I mentioned at Stanford and other universities throughout the United States This is a 4x amplification of the total amount of funding given to studies of mental health physical health and performance And of course as those studies are completed and published we will be sure to share the data and the actionable tools that emerge from those data with you So for those of you that are already premium channel members Thank you and for those of you that are considering becoming a premium channel subscriber Please keep in mind that three to one dollar match that greatly amplifies your contribution to subscribe to the Huberman Lab premium channel Please go to Huberman Lab .com slash premium It costs $10 a month to subscribe or you can pay a hundred dollar for an entire year's membership We also have a lifetime membership that again is a one -time payment You can find out more about that lifetime membership at Huberman Lab .com slash premium For those of you that are already premium channel members Please go to Huberman Lab .com slash premium to download the premium member feed in order to access the entire episode today And for those of you who are not premium members you can still hear the first 20 minutes of today's episode and Determine whether or not becoming a premium member is right for you and now without further ado I will answer your questions the first question for today's AMA is Quote is there a distinct health advantage to using bone broth or collagen protein versus way protein?

3:57I get this question pretty often and I touched on this in the episode that I did with Dr. lean Norton But I think the key thing to remember here is that While protein is one of the three macro nutrients right proteins carbohydrates and fats Not all proteins are created equal now what differentiates different protein sources Has a lot to do with how easily those proteins are assimilated into our body and Their amino acid content now in general how bioavailable a protein is as well as its quality or protein score Relates to a number of things not the least of which is the amount of loose scene Which is a particular essential amino acid that we need to get from food So why is loose scene important?

4:44Well loose scene is an essential amino acid you need to get it from food and Some protein sources such as way protein for instance, but also beef chicken eggs, etc Have high levels of loose scene as compared to other types of protein for instance collagen protein and some Not all bone broths and I'll explain what I mean by that in a moment So if we just step back from this question and ask it in two parts remember the question was is there a distinct health advantage to using bone broth or collagen protein versus way protein One can be very confident in the answer to that which is way protein contains relatively high amounts of the amino acid Loose scene and therefore is going to be the superior form of protein if your goal is to grow muscle and or get stronger to repair muscle Either muscle damage caused by exercise or simply to engage protein synthesis Remember even if you haven't been exercising intensely we're doing any resistance training and by the way You should be doing resistance training and cardiovascular training but independent of exercise Dietary protein in particular dietary proteins that contain high amounts of loose scene where I should say relatively high amounts of loose scene like way protein Will help induce so -called muscle protein synthesis which is generally good for us again And it's occurring even if we're not exercising if we are exercising especially if we're exercising very hard And in particular if we're doing a lot of resistance training or frankly any amount of resistance training that's taken Near or to failure right so doesn't even have to be heavy weight But if you're stressing the muscles hard then having a quality protein source that's bio -available that is you can assimilate it And that has relatively high -loosing content is going to be advantageous So through that lens I can confidently answer the question by saying that a quality way protein would be a better choice For a protein as compared to bone broth or a collagen protein which have relatively low amounts of loose scene and if you look at their Essential amino acid profile just over across the board not just focusing on loose scene and compare that to way protein We would easily say that way protein is the superior form of protein again both based on its bio -availability and it's a Meno acid composition now does that mean that bone broth and collagen protein are not valuable at all?

7:08No, I didn't say that okay So when are bone broth and collagen proteins valuable? So this has also come up in several Hubertman lab podcast episodes namely the episode that I did with Dr. Lane Norton Also the episode that I did about skin health Because there are some data not a ton but there are some data showing that people who regularly ingest collagen protein Can observe some improvements in skin elasticity and appearance now are these dramatic effects? Not so much but are these significant effects that is are they statistically significant as compared to a control condition of either no collagen protein or a different protein source and there one can find manuscripts that show yes indeed ingesting collagen protein and by the way bone broth has high amounts of collagen So we're treating bone broth and collagen protein sort of In combination here or we are considering them in combination and one would say that the amino acids that are contained in bone broth and collagen protein Actually have been shown to support skin elasticity and appearance when ingested at levels of 15 grams per day over a period of about two weeks or more Okay, so through the lens of which protein source might be best for improving skin health and appearance The answer in this case would be that the bone broth and collagen protein is going to be superior to way protein However, keep in mind that bone broth and collagen protein contain calories right they contain protein and calories Sometimes they contain calories also from fat rarely from carbohydrate, but you need to check the packaging and see what else is in there So that raises the question should you be taking Bone broth slash collagen protein I would say either or maybe both but either or and way protein or rather Let's ask the question more scientifically We'll taking way protein Support skin health and appearance in a way that either mimics or can replace The positive effects that one gets from bone broth and collagen protein and the answer there would be no at least not in any direct way There's no evidence or at least there are no studies that I'm aware of People taking way protein as a way to improve skin health and appearance now that said recovering from exercise inducing muscle protein synthesis these are things that are generally good for your body So they are going to support overall health immune health your general sense of vigor There's all sorts of downstream things that happen when you stress your muscles and then recover them or even if you just Eat a protein like way protein and keep in mind there are other proteins that have high -lucing content that lend themselves as Way protein does to muscle protein synthesis So that's going to create an overall milieu an environment of health It certainly isn't the only path to health But it's going to create a general milieu of health in the right context provided you're ingesting it at the right amounts and in the right times And by the way when I say that I know people are thinking well how much is the right amount?

10:08I am of the belief that most people who are seeking Muscle protein synthesis recovery from exercise and general health Would do well to ingest Approximately I'm not super neurotic about these things approximately one gram of quality protein per pound of lean body weight or desired body weight Okay, or if you want to be a little looser about it some people will just say one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight each day Okay, so that's going to vary from person to person So how much way protein? Well depends on how much other protein you're ingesting So let's simplify things here if in trying to get that one gram of protein per pound of body weight or so You have a limited budget as most people do I would personally suggest that you get a significant portion of whatever that Protein requirement is maybe it's 150 grams maybe it's 200 grams maybe it's 100 grams Depending on your size I would suggest getting 60 to 70 % of that from whole food sources so it could be quality lean meats Chicken eggs fish if you're a vegetarian yes, there are combinations of things like beans and rice That will allow you to achieve the proper combinations of essential amino acids There are some sources of non -animal proteins that will meet all those amino acid needs you can look these up They're easy to find online now.

11:33There's also casing protein, you know milk protein I would suggest getting most of your protein for muscle protein synthesis and for Recovery from exercise from whole food sources and then the remaining 30 % or so And I suppose this could be as high as 50 % if you're having trouble eating enough during the day Could come from a protein powder so to speak or a protein bar and way protein is an excellent source of protein in that instance And those way proteins are available out there with minimal amounts or zero amounts of carbohydrate in them some of them have sweeteners like stevia some don't They vary in cost a bit they vary in flavor a bit in mixability a bit So you have to find what works for you these are now pretty easy to find out there You just have to pick the one that's right for you and for your budget That's to meet your one gram of protein per pound of body weight sort of threshold and again You don't have to be super neurotic about reaching that threshold every single day I'm about a hundred kilograms or about 220 pounds I'm probably a little bit lighter now maybe 210 pounds I probably get anywhere from 175 to 210 grams of protein per day I know that from having tracked it recently But I'm not neurotic about making sure that every day I get 210 grams or 200 grams I'll let it vary a little bit and sometimes it gets a bit lower and sometimes it gets a little bit higher At least that works for me I'm also not in a mode of life where I'm trying to put on a lot of bustle or something like that So if you are maybe you need to pay a bit more attention to the details, but So that's to get your protein ration per day and of course you also need to make sure you're getting sufficient I believe you should get sufficient vegetables fruits and if it's in your Nutrition plan starches, you know things like rice and oatmeal and things like that if that's what you do I realize today people are doing a variety of different things Now the bone broth and collagen protein.

13:27Yes will factor into your total protein count that protein ration of one gram per pound -a -body weight per day, but keep in mind that if you evaluate bone broth or especially powdered collagen proteins through the lens of what is high quality bioavailable high -lucing content protein collagen protein or rather powdered collagen protein Doesn't scale up that well and so I would say if you are interested in improving your skin health and appearance Sure, go ahead and add 15 grams of collagen protein in powdered form per day or have some bone broth I happen to really like bone broth It also has a fair amount of protein and I believe I need to double check this But I believe that some of them actually have fair amounts of lucine just not as high as way protein Okay, so I want to be clear about that because the question was about a comparison between bone broth collagen protein and way protein One last thing about skin health as it relates to way protein On the episode I did about skin health I read a number of papers and then we Addressed these papers again when I had Dr.

14:32Teo Salo Mani on the podcast. He's actually a Dermonc or a dermatologist oncologist specializes in skin cancers But also the cosmetic aspects of skin care, you know what big skin have nice levels of elasticity reducing things like rosacea psoriasis and acne and in that discussion and in the papers that I covered in The solo episode it was clear that one of the things that has been shown to contribute to acne in some people Okay, not all but in some people is Having a high lucine content in the diet Okay, so this runs counter -current to everything I've said before but I would be remiss if I didn't say this Way protein has been evaluated for its tendency to increase acne in some people and it seems to be related to Lucine which again is quite present in way protein and Lucine's ability to increase certain components of the cell growth pathway involving mTOR mammalian target of rapamycin There's a whole discussion to have about mTOR We don't have time to get into right now I don't think you should be afraid of way protein because you think it will induce acne What seems to be the case here is that the high -lucine content and probably other things in way protein That are effective in increasing insulin lead to increases in mTOR Which internally to changes in the skin that sometimes show up as increased acne Again, I'm not saying that taking way protein will increase your acne what I am saying is if you have issues with acne you might try Taking out way protein for a couple of days or weeks and by doing so see whether or not way protein is Causing or exacerbating those acne symptoms.

16:11I personally have never noticed that issue with way protein But others might and indeed there are some peer -reviewed manuscripts that point to that and as a final point one thing that became clear in Offline discussions with Dr. Teosolamani about this way protein Lucine acne thing is that for women in particular whose hormone cycle across the month They may find that way protein and other high -lucine protein sources Will exacerbate or create acne at particular phases of their cycle because of the interaction between that mTOR pathway and Some of the hormones that fluctuate during different phases of the menstrual cycle So we all have to learn to be scientists of ourselves that is to try something see if we like it See if we don't ask ourselves why right if you get stomach discomfort from a given brand of way protein Please don't take that one again, right?

17:01You have to find what works for you and then pay attention to whether or not for instance if you're a woman and you're seeing Some increase in acne or other skin symptoms by taking way protein at a particular phase of your cycle Maybe you stop taking it during that phase and take it only another phases or you have no issues go ahead and take it for men Whose hormones obviously don't cycle as much throughout the month if at all? They're gonna cycle depending on sleep etc Stress etc, but you get the idea if you are experiencing Troubling levels of acne take weight protein out altogether Maybe replace it with a casing protein or other high quality protein and see how you react again become a scientist of yourself You'll be glad you did thank you for joining me for the beginning of this ask me anything episode to hear the full episode and to hear future AMAs go to hubermanlab .com slash premium to become a premium member other membership benefits include access to transcripts of Huberman lab episodes early access to Huberman lab events and a discount on all items in the Huberman lab store along with special gifts from our Sponsors to learn more go to Huberman lab .com slash premium and as always Thank you for your interest in science