Build Muscle & Strength & Forge Your Life Path | Dorian Yates

27:21We're doing sprints, like on an air bike. It's my favorite because it engages every muscle, push, pull, legs. If you do a 20-second all out and you can see how much you got on the side of the thing, you can see how much watts you're generating. So now you have a target to hit or exceed every time. So do a minute, minute and a half warm-up, whatever. Feel warm, all out, balls out like the devil's chasing you for 20 seconds. First one's tough, but it's okay. Go down slowly for a minute, do the second one all out. The second one's really tough. The third one is I've never met anybody that wants to do one after the third one because literally you can't breathe.

28:06And the benefits from that, again, I think there's a book called The One Minute Cardio. It's a bit tricky because it's not really one minute. It's one minute of sprints, but it's six minutes in total. And they compared that to 45 minutes of steady cardio on a treadmill or whatever it is, and the results are more or less the same. So what do you want to do? Do you want to spend six minutes or do you want to spend 45 minutes? I'd rather do the six minutes. I do a bit of long cardio as well myself because I like biking in the mountains and stuff. But if you did that twice a week along with some weight training, that would be amazing.

28:42You'd change your life. literally with that and a good diet. So the whole time thing excuses, it's not relevant. I'm not listening. You don't need a lot of time. Well, what I love about you is that you've done things at the ultra elite level within bodybuilding, but the advice that you're giving right now is very practical for the everyday person. And I'm not a psychologist, but I'm going to venture a hypothesis here, which is that some of that has to do with the fact that you grew up blue collar background from Birmingham, working full time while building out your bodybuilding career. You didn't come to it with a briefcase full of cash and have the opportunity to just say, well, how much training can you do?

29:19Well, let's figure it out. You had to be very practical. And my guess is that you had to be very practical about recovery and nutrition as well. I'm guessing there was a point in your life where you couldn't afford grass-fed meat shipped in from south of France. I'm not saying you do that now. Let me tell you a story, man. When I was British champion, that was a big thing back then, British champion, right? 3 ,000 people in the audience packed out. We had buses coming from our gym, all this stuff, air horns. British bodybuilding crowds, they're pretty rowdy. I think the Brits around any sport get pretty rowdy.

29:56They're pretty rowdy. If you see boxing in Vegas and there's a British fighter, they take over the whole place. So anyway, this great accolade, I'm British champion now. And I went home. I got no car. I'm living in a council estate it's like projects you know council estate I got no carpet in my bedroom I don't even have a proper bed I just got a mattress yeah I got a tv that barely works and I got a trophy I'm like wow look I'm British champion but nobody gives a fuck really like you know I do and the people that's in the bodybuilding community but this hasn't translated into anything yet it took me about five years of really like you know 100 % dedication for me to turn pro.

30:45And the ironic thing is, I guess, like when you're starting and you've got nothing, nobody's very interested and nobody wants to help you. When you become successful, people want to help you because they want to help themselves, which is fair enough. It's a transaction. But until then, no. So I got my first car when I was 25. All my friends were driving 18, 19. But the funny thing is I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything. I knew I was on this mission. And this in itself was so powerful. Like nobody else had this mission that I was doing to change my life, basically. And bodybuilding was the vehicle.

31:29and I think something that really helped me is I'm an avid reader. I have been since I was about 10 years old and I can take in a lot of information on a subject if I'm very interested. I'll almost get obsessed with it for a while and then I might just say, oh, I forget about that. I'll go interested in something else. So all the guys that I was training with, they were just watching videos and listening to other guys in the gym. I was reading Mike Mensah. I was reading Arthur Jones. I was trying to figure it out for myself,

32:03which means you need a very independent kind of personality. So, yeah, let me try to do a bit more. It doesn't work. Finished, you know. And the fact that I've got all this, every single workout from 1983 to 1997 written down, all the diets, later on when I'm using anabolics, what I'm using and how long, and all this stuff so I could analyze it, you know, see what's working and what's not working. A lot of guys were like shooting in the dark, hoping they're going to hit something, but they don't. And, you know, I didn't have time to waste. This was a mission. I didn't have skills. I didn't have a family, you know, all this stuff.

32:45So bodybuilding was my road to change my life. Where it was going at first, I didn't know, but I knew it was going somewhere. I knew I could be very good at it. Did you have the sense even before all this that perhaps you were different or that you were destined to pursue something? 100%. What's your earliest recollection of knowing that you were going to aspire to some very high peak? Well, the first thing I was into was Bruce Lee, right? So, you know, Bruce Lee. Even I was impressed with his physique then. Now I look compared to a bodybuilder. It's very lean. but the abs and everything had that poster on the wall, you know, with the cuts down there and everything.

33:29So I was doing push-ups. Just at my last year at school, I started getting bodybuilding magazines and doing a bit of weight training. So there was that then. I left home at 16, and I just didn't have the lifestyle to pursue it. And for some reason, I'm not doing this. I said, I'm not doing this until I can do it properly. and I always knew I was different, I guess, you know, but I didn't know why and I didn't know where it was going, but I knew it was going somewhere. And it's a strange feeling through my whole process. I feel like I've done it before almost, you know, like it was destined, like it wasn't a surprise.

34:12In the earlier years, it's like I just knew I've got to just put everything into this. I've got to put everything into this. And I can't let anything distract me 100 % into this. So, yeah, I knew I was destined for something. And when I started doing bodybuilding, I was like, ah, so this is it. I don't know if you heard the story, but I got a little bit of trouble. Just rowdy guys, really. We got picked up on the street at the wrong time because there were some street riots in Birmingham, which we weren't involved with. But wrong place, wrong time. Got sent to a detention center. and in there they had weights and there was 300 guys and like I was nearly the strongest guy in there.

34:55The only guy that was stronger than me was like 50, 60 pounds heavier and I was really lean. I had abs and everything. Everyone was like, wow, the physique. Even the prison officers in there were like, you should do something with this. I said, don't worry, I'm going to. So that was another one like, hey, you've got something here. You know, it was a crossroads here. and I was like I never want to be in a place like this again and lose my freedom. You literally become a number and you're told when to get up and when to do this. Those places suck. And I saw people in there that I knew they were destined to like this is their life.

35:29Even they didn't care. Yeah, I know. But I don't give a fuck. I might be in jail but this is just the life I've chosen. Good luck with that man. It's not for me. So that again was like hey, you need to do something with this. And when I left there I didn't start training. And I was like, I got to get a job. I got to get an apartment. I got to get stability. And when I did, I was like, right, I start my bodybuilding journey. Write it down today, the date. I still got it, man. What's in those notebooks? Everything from what you did for a warm-up, how you felt going into there? All the sets and reps, warm-up, how I was feeling that day.

36:04Some days I was feeling overtrained and tired. Even though I was training three days a week, sometimes I had to back off the intensity because of work and stuff like that. but how I was feeling and you know it's interesting if I look at my books over the years the first ones are quite childish got these little go for it you know mass and power kind of cool too I'm glad actually you mentioned that I've kept training logs inspired by you and by Mike for many years and getting to read that kind of stuff the kind of silly stuff I mean it captures the spirit of it at the time not only that I wouldn't forget half of the stuff that I did if I hadn't documented it even now Now I'm like, my guys on social media was like, when were you doing this exercise?

36:46And when did you start? When did you change to this one? I'm like, I don't know, man. I have to go back and look. And sometimes it's not as I thought it was when I go back. It was a little bit different. So it's great that I got all that written down and documented. And I used to have every month a review where I'm at and the goals for the next month. Try to make them realistic, but, you know, the goals in mind for the next month. Super methodical. Very methodical, analytical, logical. Do you get that from one of your parents or to go in the opposite direction of your parents? Well, my mother was actually quite very educated.

37:22She was private school and everything, but my dad was very working class, car mechanic and everything. But he managed to... Perfect combo. Yeah, he managed to... You know, I was young. I lost my father at 13, right, from a heart attack. but he was a working class guy that managed to buy a small farm. He managed to learn to fly an airplane. I went out with my dad when I was like four or five years old. He was flying four-seat Cessnas and everything like that. So, I mean, he must have been a smart guy and very driven to be able to do that as a working class guy. Imagine back in the 1970s flying airplanes and you work as a maintenance engineer at the rover plant or something.

38:01I think for Americans, they don't realize how stratified the class system in England was in that time. It's very different. Absolutely. A working class guy flying an airplane. There was nobody else doing that. So he must have been a guy above average intelligence, and my mom was as well. So I probably got the logical stuff from my dad, I would say. You know, my mom's more female, more emotional. My dad was probably very, you know, logical in his ways. And an engineer, you know, engineering is about numbers and everything. So a lot of people ask me, what happened if you didn't lose your father when you were 13?

38:42Dorian Yates, the bodybuilder, probably wouldn't exist. Because if life's comfortable, you won't put yourself through this shit, man. I mean, it's a lot of work, a lot of dedication, a lot of sacrifice. And over many, many years, it's not a short-term thing to get from starting bodybuilding to be a pro bodybuilder. It took me seven years. And that was quick. That was relatively quick. So seven years of absolute, this is my main focus of life. This is what I'm doing for seven years to get to be a pro. And then it was seven years as a pro as well. By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade.

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42:35With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, You can try OurPlace with zero risk, and you can see why more than 1 million people have made the switch to OurPlace Kitchenware. I have two questions, one practical, one more related to your personal story. The practical one is one, you know, nowadays there's an almost obsession online of young guys, teens, 20s, 30s, who immediately think they should be on testosterone enhancement, TRT, that, you know, going beyond TRT, getting on gear. How long gear for the folks that don't know is a verbiage for steroids. TRT, testosterone replacement therapy, you know, lower dosages designed to bring things into upper normal range.

43:21In some cases, a little higher. What from the time you picked up a weight, maybe in this youth detention center until the first time you went on gear, how long was that? And how much did you achieve doing the sorts of training you were talking about before? I want to separate this out from the competitive phase. In part because, frankly, I think, and I've been very open, I'm on low-dose TRT. I started when I was 45, about 125 milligrams a week. Okay. Same as you. We're on point with that, the same. Yeah, same as you. So, but I always tell people they really, really, really should wait, if do it at all.

44:00How long did you have without anything? Whereas, you know, food, training, sleep, maybe some supplements like some creatine, some protein powder. Right, so I started in 83 earlier in the year. I was 180, 185, but very lean. You can see some pictures of me after six months training. Yeah, well, you have those thick joints. I mean, you have an athletic. I got very low body fat as well, naturally. My son and my daughter, they both like had abs and like when they were 11 years old, very, very lean, pale skin, low body fat, thin skin type of thing. So you wouldn't say, wow, look at that guy. He's big.

44:40But you would say, wow, he's really cut this guy. That's how I started, 180. So after six months, I think I was 195. And the gym owner put on a contest in Birmingham, local gym thing. And he was like, come on, go in a contest. And I don't know. OK. So I went in. No diet, no steroids, nothing. It was the first time as contest. I still got the pictures. But the two guys that I was competing against, they came second and third. I won. But both these guys were already on stuff. So I was able to beat them not using anything, right, because genetically I'm better, I guess. I'm not saying in six months I overtook them.

45:25I probably started ahead of them. So that was with nothing. I got up to 210. So I'm just looking back because we did some social media posts with my early training, yeah? So I'm benching three plates a side for like three or four reps. And I want to go now into the IFBB and compete, which I know everybody's using, right? So I was 210 when I decided I'm going to do this competition. And I did some D-ball, 20 milligrams a day for about six weeks. Then I switched to Anivar for the contest. so I went from 180 to 210 so that's 30 pounds I put on in a year and a half training or something then I decided to do the competition so in six weeks I think on 20 milligrams of D-bar I went to like 230 you know it's a big boost in six weeks but I already put on 30 pounds like without anything um and for me it was always like I'm going to do competitive bodybuilding and I intend to make a career out of it.

46:32So I just want to be on the same playing field as everybody else. So I won the novice competition in the IFBB. And everyone was like freaking out. The guy who was the head of the federation, who's also a judge at the Mystery Olympia, and some other guys came backstage and said, where the hell have you come from? And why are you in the novice competition? I said, well, I'm from Birmingham, and it's my first competition in the federation. So I'd start at the bottom and wait, you're probably better than our best heavyweight. I'm like, no, come on. And they were laughing like this kid. It's like, we want you to join the British team in two weeks' time at the World Games, which is a world championship.

47:15So I went from a novice two weeks later to compete in the World Games against Barry de May, who became a top Olympian, Matt Mendel, who was the best amateur in USA at the time. And I got seventh place there. And I remember, like, I basically spent out all my funds to get ready for this concert. I had nothing left. I had to buy a tracksuit, tanning lotion. Like, I was earning very little money. So this took all my money. And I'm broke. And I had to ask my brother-in-law, can you lend me, like, 20 pounds because I need to do this and get a taxi to the team selection. Right? So I went to the team selection.

47:56I got picked. But I was like amongst all these guys, and I'm thinking like I just borrowed some money to get here. But they picked me for the World Games team. So I went quite uniquely, I think, from a novice competition to a world championship in two weeks. So that's kind of the level I was at when I first started competing. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but do you think it's fair to say that for people who are not going to pursue competitive bodybuilding, that it's probably best to explore how far they can go with their training and good nutrition and perhaps even without hormone replacement until they really need it or later.

48:37I mean, to me, it seems like given the health risks, unless there's, it's sort of like boxing. Like boxing is fun. I've done some boxing, done some sparring. But at some point you realize, wait, if I'm not going to make money doing this, if this isn't my career, getting hit in the head is just not worth it, especially for my job. I'm not asking you to be a public health advisor, but you've been in this sport. A lot of young guys and gals are interested in looking better, feeling better, and going immediately to what peptides can I take? Should I be on HRT? Should I take Anavar? And I've got my opinions, but you're the expert here.

49:11Well, it's my opinion, and the way I looked at it was like I'm going to do this as a sport, right? So I justified it because everyone else is doing it, and I did it as a professional. And 1990, so I was two times British champion, overall British champion in 1988. I got my pro card. And my first pro contest was Night of Champions, which was probably second or third, you know, below the Mr. Olympia. Because those of you who don't know, you can't just go into Mr. Olympia, right? You have to win a pro show or place in the top three as it used to be then. I'm not sure. Now they seem to give out so many pro cards.

49:50it's kind of lost its value, but then it was tough to get a pro card. So I said, look, I've been doing all this, yeah? I'm taking steroids, which may have some negative effects on my health later on, may do. So I'm going to go to Knight of Champions. If I don't get in the top five, I'm not good enough. So at that point, if that's the case, no longer justified to take the steroids or compete because I've gone as far as my genetics will allow me. As I observed the history of bodybuilding, the guys that were great champions, they were great out the gate. They didn't get, I don't know, 12th place in Mr.

50:32Olympia and the next year winner, right? You've got it or you don't have it, right? That's what I thought. I'm going to be brutally honest with myself. I have a gym. I'm making okay money now. If I don't compete, I could open more gyms, put more time into that. I have a young son. You know, they're kind of making a sacrifice of time and energy and everything. because I'm putting everything into this. So if I don't get in the top five in the night of champions, competitive career is over, steroids are over, do something else within the sport, open more gyms or something like that. Anyway, the story is I got second.

51:05So I continued to do what I got to do as a professional and I feel it was justified because I was earning a lot of money, more money than anyone else I knew ever earned. But what's my advice if you're a 20-year-old guy and you were speaking to me and I'm giving you advice? Get as far as you can naturally, yeah? And then look at it. But whatever gains you make by taking anabolics is a temporary situation. You will lose it when you get off, right? So it's a merry-go-round. Once you get on the merry-go-round, you don't really want to get off because when you do get off, you start to lose all those gains.

51:52You start to feel mentally depressed because now your hormones are on the floor. So what are you going to do? Jump right back on again, and it becomes this merry-go-round. As far as I'm concerned, everybody should make their own choices in life and be able to do what they want to do. But keep that in mind. Is it worth it? Because possible negative effects physically and also is not talked about a lot mentally, I believe there's a lot of people in the sport with mental health problems, especially women now, because they're in the high doses now, where before they really weren't. And we're in this age of instant gratification.

52:37Everybody wants everything now, right? And I see it a bit like this, maybe from the guy's point of view. Well, listen, women are having breast implants, right? They're having lip fillers and Botox and all this shit, so why can't we take some anabolics just to look good and have abs on the beach? Why not?

52:59Because of that. And ask yourself if it's worth it, because this is a reality. You can't keep those gains, so you're probably going to be forced to continually do this over a long period of time, and that might be bad for your health. I seem to be in very good health but I've changed my lifestyle and done a lot of different things to kind of recover from the stress that I put on my body in a professional career and I'm here today and I'm healthy and I'm successful and my business is good and I'm happy but it could have been different it was different for a lot of guys that I used to compete against yeah a lot of them are dead so is it worth the risk?

53:39I mean that's their question to answer But I would say it's not. But, hey, that's just my opinion. Well, I'm struck again by how rational you were. If I place in the top five, et cetera, I'll move forward. If not, very grounded. Yeah. So that was the first question. And we will return to some training things. But the second question relates to this thing that you mentioned about your dad, had he not passed away young. A friend of mine, we were talking recently about having daughters versus sons. I won't provide the context for this. And he said to me, he's got three daughters, and he's very happy with his three daughters.

54:13And he said, you know, the one thing about sons is they feel, I think he was talking about himself, they feel like they have to fill their father's shoes. There's going to be a phase where they're competing with their dad no matter what. And my reflexive response was, and then I realized, listen, I went through all that stuff, all that stuff. And in many ways, my dad and I are on good terms now, but we had some choppy years in there, but for sure. But now we're good. But the friction, I mean, that grew me a lot too. I mean, it forced me to work harder. I mean, there were probably some long nights that, you know, I just wasn't consciously tying it to like, oh, I'm trying to, you know, outdo him.

54:59But I pushed myself to become somebody that was at least as, you know, successful in certain ways and ideally more. And so do you think this is a real thing? I think every situation can go two ways, right? I mean, you have a son now. So how do you think about this with him? I think he found it tough. He confides with my wife a little bit that he found it tough. Like, I'm like, don't try to compete with me in what I do, but take the principles of discipline and hard work and you can apply that really to anything. But, yeah, I think, you know, my son did some bodybuilding. He was playing with the idea of competing, which he probably could have done quite well at.

55:44But I said, look, you're a sensitive guy, yeah? Much more sensitive than me. I got thick skin but let me tell you what will happen if you compete you win yeah of course he won his Dorian son you lose how can he lose his Dorian son I said either way be prepared for that's going to be the reaction so you know if you want to do it I'll support you but he decided not to get into the competitive side of things well he trains people and stuff so you know he's still both of my kids are in the fitness world, let's say. But competitive world is a different thing and there's very few people that can get to the top and make it work for them, you know.

56:29More people now because before you had to compete and you had to win and you had to be in the magazines. Now a lot of people can make money online coaching or whatever it is. So there's more avenues now that you can go into to make money in what's called now the fitness industry. is so much bigger than when I was competing, but I would say purist bodybuilding is less people doing it. More people going to the gym and doing fitness in general, but I think bodybuilding per se was more popular in the 80s and 90s because it was all new. And there was less, there was no CrossFit, there was no MMA. You know, things have changed since then.

57:09There was no fitness, Mr. Olympia. There's no, I don't know, they've got so many classes now. So there's many more things for people to do than, you know, maybe they figure it's not worth it to be a competitive bodybuilder if you can earn an income online and not, you know, put yourself online in competition. So things have changed a lot since then. Yeah, and the bodies that are in movies have changed tremendously. The average size of a male or female, the shape is so much more bodybuilder-esque now. Yeah, because everyone's using juice, right? You know, it's mainstream now. When I started bodybuilding in the 1980s, I don't think the general public really knew about steroids.

57:52You know, they got a little inkling when Ben Johnson got a positive. Now everybody's, it's mainstream, right? Everybody knows about steroids, and I think it's seen by males as a cosmetic enhancement, just like females put in blush pants or Botox or whatever they put in their lips and everything to make that change. So it's mainstream. You got rappers, you got movie stars, like they want to get in shape for a movie. Come on, man. And it's not happening in two months, that transformation without some chemical help, which, you know, they're earning millions in the movie. So maybe it's worth it for them, of course.

58:30You mentioned you have a thick skin. One of the things that got me to learn about you early on, because frankly, I was involved in other things, a little bit of martial arts, some soccer, some things. And bodybuilding to me wasn't something I really wanted to pursue as a sport, but I wanted to put on muscle. I was a tall, skinny kid. That's what led me to Menser and how I learned about your training, discovered what you were doing, and then really learned to extract what I think is the best of bodybuilding for somebody who doesn't want to do it. Like how are they training? How are they eating?

59:01What are they doing that's separate from the drugs that I can benefit from? This kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. And to be fair, TRT can be very useful to treat depression and other things for men. and in some cases, even women. We'll get back to that, but I want to just kind of frame this in a certain way. However, one of the things that I think drew me to what you were doing at the time is that you had this kind of like mellow, sort of, or I would say kind of like quiet, thick skin stance. We also have kind of commonalities through our music tastes. So I saw that and I'd recognize certain things.

59:35Still get that punk inside of my man. In the tattoos, the punk rock thing. Yeah, oi music and that kind of thing. And so you go, oh, here's somebody who's kind of different than the rest of this community. But when people see the videos of you training, we'll put some links to those. It's so striking because you're like this, but then in the moment of a set, it's like, I mean, intensity doesn't quite explain it. It's like, and I'm curious because people can see those videos. What was going on in your head? Were you going into the set, through the set, were you thinking about, I'm just guessing, your dad, how you were an underdog?

1:00:16Were you just thinking about the muscle? What were you using besides listening to loud music? And intensity doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from someplace. What's your internal narrative at those times? Well, I always prepared myself before I went to the gym, just walked through the doors casually. I'd review my training before I went there this is what I did last week this is what I want to do today and I would sit and do a visualization so I'd have specific clothes for the day and like OCD maybe and I used to have this thing which seems strange to me now I used to iron my clothes before I went to the gym they had to be ironed They had to be a thing.

1:01:03And I just read a study how ironing clothes really lowers your cortisol by about 40%. I didn't know that. I was just doing it. I trained with my friend in New York. He's like, what the fuck are you doing, man? I just put your T-shirt. No, no, no, no. I got to iron it. There was a whole game preparation going on to get me in maybe OCD, maybe too much, but it worked for me. So I review, go to the gym, and have my targets. and I use a special type of motivation. It's called fuck you motivation. Fuck you to all the teachers at school that said you couldn't get anywhere. Fuck you, fuck anyone. So I'm going to show you.

1:01:45Fuck you. So fuck you motivation is a great one, yeah? Whatever you've got inside you, anger, negative emotions, use it all. Use it all like fire. And then when I go home, I'm like, I'm shilled. I've slayed dragons in the gym. I've hacked people up with my sword. And it's like a form of mastery over oneself, mastery over the whole thing with the dieting as well for competitions. Maybe I went a little bit overboard with it and came down a little bit too much because then it was like mastery over my instincts of wanting to eat and do I do that? No. I'm deciding here I'm in control and maybe this worked against me a bit as well because I would be like going to the war I don't care if you're if I feel a little I'm going through it you know so um yeah I used all these anger negative emotions whatever it is I'll show you I'm gonna make it I'm gonna do this so whatever works for you but for me that worked you know anything negative, turn it into something positive.

1:02:59You know, it's transforming the negative energy, which could be destructive to myself or maybe other people around me, taking it. Alchemy, you know, changing into something else. So I used all that negative feeling, negative emotions. And I stayed in Birmingham as well while I was Mr. Olympia for six years. More opportunities here and everything, but more distractions as well. So I wanted to stay in the same gym, try to keep that same attitude, even though I got more money in the bank and I'm driving a Mercedes instead of jumping on the bus, right? But I wanted to keep that. That's why I didn't move over here.

1:03:38A lot of people ask me, why I didn't go to the States? Because the industry is there. but by the time I got to be Mr. Olympia I could kind of dictate things so I did what I wanted to do which was keep my head down and keep that hunger going I love the transmutation of anger and everyone's got their stories and I can remember in the third grade someone said something about the jacket that my mom gave me that day to wear these little things, they don't bother me anymore but there were times when we can layer in it's fuel, use it for fuel Yeah, take that anger, the negative thing, whatever, change it into something positive.

1:04:15And we were discussing earlier, like, do we know any, like, elite-level athletes that came from a very comfortable, wealthy family? I don't know any. I'm not saying there isn't, but I don't know any. Maybe in golf or something. You need that motivation. You know, you want to make something. You want to make something of your life. You want to prove to yourself and everybody else, you know, that you've got something. And I just, when I was young, I looked at life around me. I said, what is this? I'm going to get a mate, have some children, go to work, come back. For a lot of people, this is great.

1:04:56Maybe the love of the family and everything like that. But I didn't have that. Even when I had a family, it wasn't a family. My mom and dad were kind of together because it was the 60s. But I got the idea that that was because of me, maybe. So we never sat down and had a meal as a family. Never. So we were, mom and dad were married, but they were leading kind of separate lives. And I was in the middle somewhere, I guess. Yeah, so if I didn't have that motivation, you know, maybe my dad would have taught me to be a maintenance, you know, car engineer or something. I don't know. It would be a whole different story, I'm sure.

1:05:33I have this theory that barring accident or injury that we kind of have an unconscious sense of how long we're going to live. I started thinking about this when I read the biography of Steve Jobs. He was really on a mission early on and kind of an odd guy. He was in the area I grew up in. His whole thing with LSD but also screen therapy but also he thought that objects had personality and things like that. He's quite different. He was doing something different. He was doing something different. He saw the world very differently, and he changed the world. Like him or hate him, he absolutely changed the world.

1:06:10If you learn about him, you realize that he had some sense that he might not live a very long time, and he died quite young, pancreatic cancer. Is it a sense or is it a premonition? Yeah. And you can edit these thoughts, I think, because I always had this bit of a fatalistic thing, maybe because my dad died so young. So my dad died at 42. my mom quickly met another guy that she wanted to marry and he also died at 44. So I saw two guys. Okay, they both smoke 40 cigarettes a day, which was usual at that time, and don't exercise and drink alcohol. Not much sunlight up there. Not to get enough sleep and no sunlight, all these things.

1:06:54But, you know, I've changed this over the years because now I'm 63 going on 64 and appear to be very healthy. I feel great and I'm looking forward to the future. And I don't know, none of us know, right? I'm just trying to live the best life that I can live day by day

1:07:16and be the best version of myself and have a good quality of life and appreciate every day at a time. I mean, this is what we learn from dogs. They don't live in the future, they don't live in the past, they're just there all the time, they're there as a reminder. we're both dog lovers so we're talking about that earlier on so we don't know how long we're going to live just make the most of it every day and uh you know i said i read a lot so i was this book um by a lady that works in end care you know so she interviewed all these people that you know they know they're dying right they're on the way out and what they regret and all this stuff mostly it was not doing the things they love not telling the people that they love that they love them enough not one fucking person said i wish i worked harder or anything like that you know so i think we have to just make the most of the moment make the most of each day and appreciate it because it's you know it's going to end right we're going to move on I don't believe we stop.

1:08:27We just move on. Yeah, I think we continue on in some form. We're already there. We're already everywhere at the same time, and that's what I think. We're just aware of this. We're on this channel right now. We're on this radio wave. I certainly subscribe to that, and I want to get into kind of your exploration of psychedelics and consciousness and then moving on from it, which not everyone is aware of. But before we do that, despite the living for the day, by the day, you had this sense that, like, you're going to put everything you have into something. And you went for it. In this, I'm realizing now, very logical, like, if this, then that.

1:09:09If that, then not this. Yeah, I was trying to weigh stuff up. It wasn't do or die. It was maybe do or die during the training. Yeah. But it was when the feedback signal was there's a real opportunity here, you put everything in. Exactly. But you weren't foolish with your life resource. No, I did it step by step. And anabolics that I took when I was amateur is fairly low. So I don't think there was that much risk there. When I was becoming Mr. Olympia, it went up another level. And growth hormone was not available early 80s. So that came in later 80s into the 90s and so on. But I don't think there's much danger in that.

1:09:49There's danger is in the body weight, high blood pressure, inflammation. Diuretics. Diuretics, I mean, that's an instant death sentence if you overdo that. And it has happened. The guy, I mean, it hit me, the guy that I got second to at my first night of champions, Mohamed Benazisa. I don't know if you remember him. I do, yeah. He was a short guy, but amazing, a lot of muscle. and he passed away on a tour because he was doing extreme things with water and diuretics. And they actually did introduce testing for diuretics 1996 in the Mystery Olympia because people were concerned about this. There was a few guys that died just trying to get dehydrated and get in condition.

1:10:38But I think somebody failed the test and challenged it legally and it didn't stand up. So then they just dropped it. They did steroid testing, interestingly, in 1990. How'd that go? Sorry. Take a look online. You know, it's funny. It used to be a big deal to try and figure out is somebody taking stuff or not. I mean, there's just these telltale signs, right? A certain leanness, a certain, you know, protrusion of some vasculature in the neck. I mean, you can tell when people are on and when they're not, right? And although there are a couple of genetic freaks out there, like yourself when you were younger, or my friend Nasima, who works with Mark Bell, who, you know, he's got really long muscle bellies.

1:11:17He's naturally lean. And he's a real athlete. And according to him, I think as of last time we spoke, you know, he hasn't touched anything. And people would, you know, die to have his kind of musculature. But he trains hard. He does everything. But it's kind of scary to think what happens when guys like that would go on. I think those are the genet... You could look at mine, 1990, Mr. Olympia. I don't know because they didn't publish the weights. but Lee Haney still won it. He was maybe a bit lucky to beat Lee Labrada. I'd say Haney was probably 20 pounds down. I mean, the fans were like, fuck this.

1:11:57We want to pay like a couple hundred dollars to see, you know, guys that are a lot less than before. We want to see the same or more. You know, nobody wants to see a guy run 100 meters in 11 seconds when they've seen under 10 seconds. So I think the people that control the sport, they realize this is not going to fly. So they dropped it. It's so interesting because, you know, bodybuilding is an unusual sport. But for that matter, so is free solo rock climbing. We had Alex Honnold on here. He, you know, climbed El Cap, probably the most dangerous athletic feat of all time. One slip and fall and you're dead.

1:12:31He said you can make mistakes, but not slip and fall mistakes. Things like that, things like bodybuilding, things like what we see from the Red Bull athletes, I do think that serves an important role in getting us, as the rest of us, to think about what's possible with the human body, technology, and pharmacology. And I do think that from each extreme sport, even skateboarding, a sport I was involved in early on, by the way, street skateboarders putting themselves at extreme risk, only one, one guy wears a helmet. One. On vert, they wear helmets, right? But on the street, they don't do it. Why?

1:13:04Because it's not part of the culture. It would be like asking professional bodybuilders to stop taking gear. It's not going to happen. It's embedded in the culture to see how far you can take something in a certain dimension. I think these things provide a useful role in getting the rest of humans to understand what's possible. And there's usually valuable takeaways like resistance training. Absolutely. Nutrition. The new nutrition guidelines for the U.S. just came out today. They basically inverted the food pyramid. Limited amount of grains, fruits, vegetables. Oh, great. meat, eggs. You know, it's funny.

1:13:37It's basically what has been talked about in the fitness bodybuilding community for a very long time. Insulin management, low sugar. I mean, it's so funny because now everyone's like, oh, you know, this is so outrageous. But that was pulled from the sport that you're describing. So for people who might not be familiar with the names, because our listenership is broad, I think it's important for people to understand how something like fitness or health progresses, it pulls these things from the pioneers that were willing to, frankly, go pioneer how it's done. It doesn't come from university studies.

1:14:11And I say that as a university professor. It comes from the real world and then back through. We're probably 20 years ahead. I mean, I don't know about the US, but I went to a conference in London and it was a national health service. how they're now going to study more nutrition. Because in their five or six years they do, they do two hours study on nutrition, which is like, I mean, you can't even get high school level understanding in two hours, right? So I was pleased to hear that now they're, you know, they're going to look at nutrition as part of the health thing. But it was funny because they were promoting in a plant-based diet.

1:14:59But, you know, unfortunately, it's going to lack this and this and this. So we need to reinforce it with supplements. It's all in the animal-based diet, but that raises cholesterol. So that's bad, but we'll have a very deficient diet and have to supplement it. I felt like wouldn't it be better just to take the diet that has the nutrients in it in the first place? so I see competitive bodybuilding is like the peak of an iceberg you know it's an extreme it's right at the top but the basic things that we learn can apply to somebody that wants to improve their health so at an extreme level we could say maybe it's unhealthy but if you take the basic principles it can be very healthy having your hormones in the correct place building muscle mass there's incredible things that you can do for your health.

1:15:52And you won't be needing to rely on medications to control your blood sugar and your blood pressure and whatever else. Your body can do it itself, you know? I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

1:16:30The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an element packet dissolved in it. I also drink element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

1:17:06Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try element, you can go to drink element.com slash Huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com slash Huberman to claim a free sample pack. This is perhaps a good moment to tell a brief story about our mutual friend, Mike Menser. I'll keep it really brief. I paid for an online consult with Mike. It was like a hundred bucks. I had to wire it to him, which was a fortune for me.

1:17:41It was like all my money. I was in high school, right? I was working at this little skateboard shop selling shoes. Maybe it wasn't all my money, but it was significant. I had to wire it to him. He calls, and my mother was like, why is this grown man calling? Who's this grown man calling the house? He laid down the program. He barked when he spoke. I don't think people realize. He literally barked when he spoke each word. But there was a real kindness way back somewhere in that bark, and the methods worked. But he gave me some—we stayed in touch for a couple reasons. First of all, he emphasized on that call, but in subsequent calls, stay away from anabolics.

1:18:24I didn't ask. He just said it. He said, and he said, learn to enjoy training really fucking hard. Those are his words. Show yourself, man. It's a beautiful thing. And I was like, all right. Like I was coming from skateboarding. So like, I'm used to getting hurt. Right. And I was like, you know, but he's like, learn to enjoy training really fucking hard, his words. And then he also encouraged me to read. He was like obsessed with philosophy. He was obsessed with Ayn Rand, objectivist epistemology. A lot of that stuff I found to be somewhat interesting. But I mean, he was super dedicated to that.

1:18:56But he also embedded in me, he said, you seem like you like learning. Maybe you should focus on school. I was like, all right. And at the time, I was kind of rebellious against my dad. And I took his advice because it was coming from him. And then when I got to school, we stayed in touch. I was in Santa Barbara. And he said, just remember, I'll never forget this. He said, just remember, 90 % of what you're learning is completely wrong. And the worst part is they don't realize they're wrong. And I said, 90 %? And he said, 90%. He said, but the 10 % that's right, those are the gems that you build off of.

1:19:33And I thought, man. And now, you know, 30 years, more than 30 years later, as a professional scientist and now podcaster, I can tell you, having spent a lot of time running studies, writing grants, reviewing grants, Like I've been deep in that community. He's exactly right. And so he was wrong about a great many things, but he had some real gems embedded in that, like barking of a voice. You remember? I mean, he'd yell at you, basically. So anyway, I'm grateful to him. And then he also said, you'll love this. He also said, and also, you're not Dorian Yates, so don't try to be. He's a lot of guys right now.

1:20:06This is when the grainy photos of you, we'll put a link to this. when that transformation happened, when those photos came out, I think people saw that and it sparked this aspirational thing and like millions of people like, holy shit, that's possible. But he said, listen, you're not that, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy training hard. You're not that, but you could do this other thing. Take the benefits from it. That's a really good coach. The last thing I needed was somebody to tell me, hey, listen, do this. Cause it, you You know, he needed someone around to talk to or something like that.

1:20:40Anyway, that's Mike. Let's talk about those photos because I think, and we'll put them up. We'll put a link to them. What happened in that one year? And why do you think that that sort of kind of transformation is so much different than like somebody getting big, just big, or somebody getting real strong or somebody like something happened in that one year. the before and afters that changed the way people think about fitness in general, not just the sport of bodybuilding, but fitness, like what the human body can do. Yeah, it was a breakthrough level for the sport, you know, as people say. Before Dorian and after Dorian, the sport changed.

1:21:27And my approach was unique as well. And Joe Weider, you know he has his way of doing things, right? This is the guy, by the way, folks that ran Muscle and Fitness and a bunch of other magazines. He basically took the sport of bodybuilding and popularized it into what is now the health and fitness industry. He was a brilliant marketer, you know. Joe Weider, trainer for Champions League, I don't know nothing about training, but he knew about marketing. Here's the thing, right? 1992, Mr. Olympia, and then 93. So people think that between 92 and 93 on stage, 17 pounds of muscle I put on in one year.

1:22:14It's not really true. In 92, six weeks out from the Mr. Olympia, I was probably five pounds, six pounds, less than the next year. But I knew Lee Haney wasn't going to be there. I knew that the guys I was competing against were smaller than me. So I said, I don't mind sacrificing some size to get super shredded, like as shredded as the smaller guy, right? So I was coming down, coming down, coming down, thinking I'd get more shredded. Maybe I did a little bit, but I realized, analyzing, Because we don't have no iPhone or nothing, right? But I used to take pictures every week, take the camera roll to the, you know, and wait for them to develop it and all that and then look, how do they look?

1:23:12And I looked at 92, six weeks out. I was pretty much contest ready then. But I just kept dieting, dieting. So I sacrificed a lot in 92 and I determined that I wouldn't do that in 93. I still did a little bit because I tend to overdo things, right? So 93, I would say I put on six or seven pounds of muscle. As a Mr. Olympia, this is outstanding, right? Because you're already at a high level. But I didn't sacrifice 10 pounds of muscle that I wasted the year before. So it appeared that I put on 17 pounds of pure muscle in a year. I didn't. I just simply didn't sacrifice as much as I did the year before.

1:23:56So it was a great year of progress. And the pitches that were taken in 92 were taken a week after the contest. So I had lost that muscle. So if you compare that one to that one, it looks like, wow, it's night and day. It wasn't really. I got pitches from 92 where I'm almost as big as 93, but nobody saw those pitches. And the pitches that I took in 93 was my friend with the camera. I said, hey, would it be good if you come up and did those pictures that we did last year in the same spot in a gym? Yeah, let's do that. And when he showed them afterwards, even I was freaked out. I was like, what? And he's like, I'm sending these to the magazines.

1:24:36They were not meant to be. They were meant to be just for my record. He had a better camera than me, so that's what I wanted them for. That's why I got my underwear on and my socks, yeah? Because I never think these photos are going to be published, right? But he sent them to Weida. And the editor at the Weider magazines was Peter McGough. He was English, so we were friends. So he sent me to Peter McGough, and Peter said, all the guys are coming to the office, and they know that I'm friends with you. So they're, you know, looking for something. So, you know, how's it going? He said, oh, I've got these very casually.

1:25:11I've got these pictures. Would you like to see them? He said, I put them on the desk. He said, they went white. They just went. and just stood there shaking the head like, okay. It's on for second then. I mean, six weeks out, everyone gave up when they saw those pictures, more or less. How did it feel to be at one point an underdog and then you're the winner? Well, hold on. Before I was a winner, very difficult because I had this underdog thing. I'm from the streets and nobody thinks I can do this. And I'm from England. They're all American and this and this and this. That's against me, yeah, theoretically.

1:25:55So I thrived on that. You know, fuck you, motivation. As I said, I'm going to show you. So I got second to Lee Haney, but then he retired. So now the title's open and logically I'm the favorite. And actually I struggled with that for a while. like first of all it was like I'm the favorite now I don't have that underdog thing I don't know what to do now and then I was like so I'm probably going to be Mr. Olympia you know when I went against Haney I wanted to try to win but I was a new guy and wow so I can be Mr. Olympia and then I just kind of turned it around in my head yeah but why not man somebody's got to be Mr.

1:26:39Olympia And do you know anybody that's dedicated themselves to the craft the way you have? Absolutely not. So, yeah, goddammit, I deserve it. And this took about a week to, like, change this whole point of view where I was comfortable going in as the favorite because, yeah, I'm going to win, so I should be the favorite. But I struggled with it, man, because the whole time I was the underdog. Even when I was in England, I'm not social, so I didn't talk to the judges or socialize or do anything. I was like, you know, who is this guy? Why is it like that? Just comes here and disappears. I wasn't interested in socializing or talking or trying to get favors and just doing my thing here, you know?

1:27:22Well, dopamine is all about the pleasure of pursuit, not the pursuit of pleasure. And the problem with reaching a goal line is for many people, they don't know what to do at that point. In fact, one of the coaches for the Boston Celtics, who used to be a former chess prodigy, Josh Waitzkin, was on here, and he said, you know, it's very different when you're defending a championship. You're now the defending champion. You're on the top. As opposed to it's... You've been climbing up. Exactly. I'm going to get that bastard up there. Exactly. I'm going to knock him off. Oh, now you're there. Now everyone's trying to knock you off.

1:27:59Once you hit the peak, because I think this, the reason I'm asking is I think this is important And for many people who are on the climb, want to be on the climb, want the peak, once you're at the peak, it sounds like you did a very good job of rotating your mindset to no one's going to take this away from you. Like a bulldog. And don't get comfortable. Don't get comfortable. So how do you do that? Like the Rocky movie. Remember the Rocky movie? When he gets comfortable, he's got the big house and everything. And you get Mr. T coming along, the badass from the ghetto, kicking his ass because he got too comfortable.

1:28:30So I always remember that. Like I'm just going to stay here, train in the gym with the same guys I train with. You know, they don't fucking treat me like a superstar or nothing. You know, they know I'm the man, but we're friends. We've been friends for years. They know me. Keep my feet on the ground. If I came here, I potentially could have made more income, but it probably would have lasted shorter. So in the long run, I probably would have made less because just too many distractions. I wanted to keep my way away from everything and it's different days then everything is the magazines so with the magazines I would come here do the Mr.

1:29:11Olympia do one week of intensive photograph sessions video the everything for the magazines so they have enough material for a year then I simply disappear and go home and nobody would see me there's no social media there's not You don't need to keep up the constant flow of attention in order to earn income. I earned my prize money. I got my contracts. I go home and start work again. And I loved it. I loved having that mission. But I can tell you something. It's very difficult to find a picture of me smiling because I was so intense in this tunnel. And at the end, there was no joy in it. Like the last year, 97, I remember getting ready for the contest.

1:29:57I'm like, wow, this feels like Groundhog Day. I've done this so in process so many times. And I started to think this is starting to feel like a job. I mean, it was, but it was a passion more. It was a bit of both, right? But now it's starting to feel like a job. And I start to think about what am I going to do after this? Because it's starting to, I don't want to feel like that, you know? Sounds like I'm just jocking you, but I'm telling you that's a very wise perspective because a lot of people don't want to let go. They don't see themselves in anything else, and therefore they don't know what to do.

1:30:34Also, when you reach a certain level in anything, it becomes easier to just make a little bit more money over here. Plus, you're the king there, man. People would just pay you to be in the room. You're the king there. You're the king, right? Yeah. So maybe you don't want to give that up. so yeah it was tough and I kind of observed a lot of athletes from different sports how they really struggle because yes you can still go to the gym and lift weights but why are you doing it now that absolute tunnel that you put yourself in like you're going to battle every day for this goal that in itself is a high the dopamine as you say as a chase I mean a competition is once a year For me, at least, it was once a year.

1:31:21So it's the whole year that you're aiming on that target. I can see that day. The whole year, I'm thinking about that day like I'm in a tunnel. Probably my best friend is like, it's great to hang out with you now because you're in the room. He said, I'd be with you before, but I'm well aware that your mind was not there. Now you're like, yeah, now I'm enjoying life. Then I couldn't afford to really enjoy it. I'm on a mission here. I'm in a war or whatever I had in my head. But it's a huge part of my life. Without that, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. Now I wouldn't be, you know, would have met my wife.

1:31:58She's a competitor as well. So many things. So I knew I had to do it. And now it's obvious why. And I think, I mean, I had people coming up to me with tears in their eyes. many people saying bro I know you don't know me but you saved my life you know just something you said or you did or inspire me and this is like fucking this is worth more than the Mr. Olympia trophy so I did it for myself it was a selfish pursuit it's bodybuilding it's all about you yeah but now it's changing to something else where I can use my position my influence and at my age, my life experience to help and inspire many people.

1:32:44And maybe that's the whole point of the thing ultimately, you know? There was a, there was a plan you weren't aware of. Yeah, absolutely. I just know I had to do it. Not I want to, like I have to, like my life depends on this. Uh, that was, that was my mentality. Well, I certainly get that feeling. And I, I can say for myself and many others that you have really inspired me. I had no, as I said, no aspirations of becoming a bodybuilder, but the idea that I could strengthen my body and most importantly, do things differently than everyone else said, and know that it works. I think that as much as the titles that you've achieved and your backstory is super impressive, and all of that stands forever, right?

1:33:31You're on the Rushmore of bodybuilding. That's for sure. This notion that you went about it differently, right? Like you said, you weren't out in California. They called you the shadow because you disappear and then come back. The way you trained, the low volume, high intensity training, I don't think people realize just how opposite that was to everything that was being thrown at people. And so what it what it told me was that one should trust experience and try things at the margins safely because oftentimes there's real pearls there. And when there is, you have to discard of everything else you hear.

1:34:09And I hear I'm talking about fitness, but I've seen this in my science career in media and podcasting. I mean, you know, the number of people that told me like, don't do a podcast, like, you know, they're good. What close family members and scientists told me like, what are you doing? And it's like, now they're coming to me asking, Hey, do you have a job? Cause I I want to get out of the science thing. It's a grind. Oh, no, it's, it's, and like you said, you get, you catch so much friction early on. There must be something that pulls iconoclasts forward. It's like this, you said, I have to do it.

1:34:39Yeah, I have to do it. Despite everything else that's happening. Doesn't matter what's happening, man. I had to do it. And day by day, I was very conscious. I need to do my best today, every day, every day, every day. and in that tunnel. And also, you know, post-career, I talk about my experiences then and depression and so on. This can affect anybody and actually affects a lot of athletes from that extreme. You're in the extreme tunnel, stress, goals, and then it's suddenly gone. So you don't have this goal that was like, in a way, giving you a lot of dopamine. You can go to the gym, but there's no purpose now, really.

1:35:23I know someone whose child just went off to university, and they were so committed as a single parent that they're in a little bit of an existential crisis. Yeah, they don't have that pain now. Who am I without that role? And they'll figure it out, but I think it's athletes. I think it's this identity thing. So where is that boundary between you need to identify with something as it being you and you are it in order to really go to great heights in anything. But then you also have to be able to dissociate from that identity piece. Well, that's the question. Who am I? That was the question. Who am I now?

1:36:00What am I going to do with life? What am I supposed to do? I was only 35, you know, and I've retired. It's like, you know, when a guy retires at 60, even if he's just been working in a bank or whatever, it's very often that they get depressed because they're going to work every day and they don't have this, you know, it's not a mission, but they don't have this routine anymore. They don't know what they're supposed to do with their time. Imagine the intensity of an athlete and then that's not there anymore. So it took me time to change the mindset from, oh, look what I've lost and I don't know who I am anymore because I was the king and now I'm not or whatever, to like, yeah, but there was a lot of things I couldn't do then.

1:36:44Like my life was so restricted then, I wouldn't even go out if I'm going to get back after 10.30 because I've got to be at bed at 11. I mean, this was all year. It wasn't just for competition. Now I'm, you know, doing fairly well financially. I don't have to do anything that I don't want to do, and I can go, and I've always been in love with animals and wildlife, and I used to sponsor mountain gorillas in Rwanda and Uganda because there was like only 600 of them in the world. So I used to sponsor them. So one of the first things I did was went on a safari out to Uganda, gorilla trekking in the mountains, and I couldn't do that before.

1:37:27Maybe I could, but in my mind I couldn't. I didn't want to take the time off. So it started to open up more possibilities slowly, but it probably took me a couple of years to start to come to terms with it. I mean, I had a business. You had kids too, right? I had a son, yeah, at that point who was coming to end of school age. I had a business, but it's like, you know, it's not that exciting. There's not that passion. So I decided I can do lots of other things. And slowly I started to get comfortable with it. and I'm whatever I want to be. I'm not Mr. Olympia. You're not a scientist. It's what you do.

1:38:17It's not who you are. It's what you're doing at the point of time. So it was a whole journey of exploration and I've always been very good at why. You know, I was 21 years old. I started bodybuilding. Why? Why is that the best way to train? Just because everyone's doing it, am I sure? Tried it out? No. It's better to train more briefly. I get better results. So fortunately, I always had that independence of thought. Even though the guys at the gym saying I'm wrong, I'm like, okay, you're right. Thank you. It's really interesting because, you know, we've created this little backdrop, this kind of ghost of Mike Mentzer.

1:38:57And for those of you who don't know him, he barked when he spoke. He was a real iconoclast. He carried this bitterness for never having, you know, become Mr. Olympia. I think Mike was too rigid in his thoughts. You got to be a little bit flexible.

1:39:16Yes, mostly he was right, but maybe for this guy, you know, he got to be a little bit flexible. And I think it was a bit too extreme in the end, like training once every 10 or 12 days and so on. And he became unhealthy, right? He smoked. He was open about it. Which I didn't understand. Amphetamine use. I still don't understand it. I still don't understand. I understand ex-bodybuilders or athletes that don't want to, like, you know, maintain their peak. Of course, it's ridiculous. You can't as you get older. But I didn't understand somebody that was in health, fitness, bodybuilding that suddenly didn't want to exercise and got overweight and smoked cigarettes and so on.

1:40:00I didn't really understand that. That was one thing I didn't get with Mike. He was very, like, pissed off about the Mr. Olympia that Arnold won in 1980 and got disillusioned with the sport, and he carried it around with him. I mean, it was one of the first conversations we had when we first met. He told me, Arnold is not going to like me. And I said, well, not that I really care, but why do you think that? And he's like, because you're better than him. Well, it's, you know, it's debatable. But let's say if I was, why would Arnold give a fuck? He was just making movies, 20 mil a movie. I wouldn't give a shit if I was him.

1:40:36He's like, you don't understand Arnold. So, you know, he was carrying this still around with him. You know, it wasn't healthy, I guess. I don't know, and I'm not a psychologist, but I'm going to venture that he wanted to be a winner, the winner, more than he probably loved the fitness piece and the training piece. And I say that because, you know, it sounds like I'm name dropping here, but I'm fortunate to be very good friends with the great Rick Rubin. Right. And Rick has worked with so many amazing artists. And he'll tell me stories sometimes about people who really didn't make music or do comedy because they loved music and comedy.

1:41:14They wanted to be loved. OK. When they got maybe attacked about a song not being as good as their last song, it crushed them. And he would say, just go back and make music. Yeah. Do what you want. And this is one of the things that makes Rick so brilliant. But then he eventually, he would share these stories in private, of course, that some people aren't doing the thing for the thing. It's about they weren't loved as a kid or they need the adoration. And so it's not, maybe Mike could, we're speculating here, but could smoke cigarettes and let himself be out of shape because it wasn't really about bodybuilding.

1:41:48He just maybe needed to be a champion so he could validate something. We don't know, right? I always got the impression with Mike that it wasn't really anything to do with health. I mean, it's not at competitive level. Let's say maybe it could be unhealthy. But you can be healthy with it. But I love to train, man. It doesn't matter what it is. I could hike. I could ride a bike. I could do Pilates. I could do yoga. You know, done boxing. Done loads of things. But I just like to exercise. And I like to feel good. and it's nothing competitive anymore. It's like this is my vehicle that I've got to experience life in a physical reality.

1:42:28This is it. If this isn't working well, I'm not going to have much fun. I'm not going to have a good quality of life. And what do I want for the next, you know, however long? I want to be functional. I want to be able to do these things that I love to do. And I want to be around and be healthy for my kids. And I just love to exercise, man. And I do something every day, different things, not lifting weights. I do that maybe a couple of times a week, moderate weights, because I don't want to – I've got injuries. I've got a torn bicep on this side, a torn tricep tendon, and some shoulder issues. I don't have any pain or anything, but it's just mechanically.

1:43:05My right side is stronger than my left. You look in awesome shape. You look lean and strong. Yeah, I'm lean. I'm strong. I don't push too much with the weights. And you kept your height. You know, a lot of people who don't train start to shrink. I didn't keep my height. Really? I got taller. Did you really? No, I posted about a month ago, six weeks on my page, just teasing people because I went to get some arthritics in my shoes, you know, to balance out. And the guy's got the measuring thing, so I just stood on it and said, you're 183. Like, I've never been more than 184. Metric system, folks.

1:43:40Yeah, yeah, right? It's like six foot, right? I was 5 '10.5", 5 '11", maybe. be. So did I physically grow bone? No. That's what I thought, because I'm 6 '1", I heard you're 5 '10". Yeah. Walked in thinking maybe, people usually lose a little bit of height unless they train real hard and they make sure to take great care of themselves. And then I walk in and yeah, you're about six feet. Yeah. But the thing is, why? Because I've been doing Pilates and functional training and resetting the shoulders back, my posture is much better. So I'm standing straighter, which gives me an extra inch of height.

1:44:17So I've actually got taller. No, I haven't taken huge amounts of growth hormone and suddenly grew when I was 60 years old. It's just my posture and the way I stand. There's less curvatures, shoulder there. So you lose a bit of height because when you lift and your pecs get big and your lats, your shoulders rotate forward. You're trying to hunch forward. So you're sitting a little bit lower. I didn't even know. I was like measuring myself. I thought, wow, that's just because I'm standing straight. and my shoulders are back. I lost that cervical arch. It's straighter now. We call the text neck for the kids.

1:44:53Yeah, heads forward, shoulders forward. Boxers have it because they're always like forward with the shoulders. So I've just got my posture really good. I've done yoga for like seven years. I've done Pilates, do some functional training. So it's all about getting this thing in the best shape. I don't have any joint pains. I had hip replacement like 14 months ago, which is great. And you're just on the logos. So I train for what I need. What do I need right now? I need some good cardio, but not excessive. So I do some sprints and some bikes outside. I do a little weight training in order to maintain, not trying to build nothing, just trying to maintain.

1:45:27What's the split people are going to want to know? I don't even have a split, man. I go in, I generally do some upper body once a week and some lower body once a week. Some pushing, pulling, some... Yeah, I do, you know, things that I can do. With chest and shoulders, it's very light because of the pushing. So I do some dumbbell press. Any compound movements for your lower body? At this point, no, because my legs are really big. Like, because I didn't have any injuries on the lower body, I think I've maintained a lot more muscle mass here. So I do bike. I do some, what's it called, Bulgarian squats with light weights, so I can do one side at a time.

1:46:10But, like, heavy leg presses and things like that, why? Why would I do it? It's because potentially risking an injury and, yeah, you can, like, press a ton of weight, but you can't touch your toes. What's the point, you know? Well, and you're also maintaining some muscle that you've laid down for many decades prior. Absolutely. It's not going to go anywhere as long as it gets a little bit of stimulation. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

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1:47:59As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com slash Huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250 ,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com slash Huberman to get early access to Function. For people that are interested in longevity who are maybe a little bit, quote unquote, lighter boned, do you think they should emphasize cardio more in strength, less or the opposite? Whereas you are able to get away with doing quite a lot of cardio, Pilates and yoga, But you don't need much resistance training.

1:48:37And we don't talk about this anymore. It used to be endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph. Nobody talks like that anymore. I had excessive amounts of muscle mass, actually. I was, a few years ago, still at like 250, just on TRT and some training. And I went for a checkup. My blood pressure was a bit high. And it just triggered something. I mean, like, I've been eating still like a bodybuilder. You know, frequent meals, chicken, breast and rye. I don't know, it's just habits, so I kept doing it. I said I'm going to go on a lower protein diet, more plant-based, and lose some weight, right? But which weight I'm going to lose?

1:49:18I'm not fat, so I guess I'm going to lose muscle mass. But it was an interesting exercise in that I dedicated my whole life, earlier life, to building muscle mass. Now I'm actively trying to lose it. But for health reasons, but also I wanted to check my ego, you know. I think everyone else was more concerned than me about, oh, he's looking skinny now and everything. Yeah, I don't care. You know, I don't care. I'm just doing what I think is best for my health. I'm losing some weight because I think if you're carrying a lot of weight when you get older, even if it's muscle, I don't think it's ideal, right.

1:50:00So I brought my weight down from 250 to 230. And at that point, I put more protein and fat. So right now, I eat probably twice a day in between 12 and 10 and might have a shake or something like that. So it's more higher protein and fats, a bit less carbs, intermittent fasting. And I feel great on it. I go in the morning, get up, do my things. And speaking about breathing, I mean, I became a lot more conscious about that through doing yoga practices. At one point I really got into yoga and the breathing, different breathing techniques. I mean you can do breathing to produce DMT and you can really shift yourself just with breathing.

1:50:44It's amazing what you can do. So I went through all that and became much more conscious about breathing and trying to breathe through the nose. Where in the gym you naturally got your mouth open and trying to gulp in as much oxygen as it can. So breathing is definitely important. I try to, you know, I'm doing yoga, I try to breathe through the nose and become more conscious about breathing. And I feel like I can speak to my whole body. Like anywhere I want to go, speak to my cells, contact my organs and check in with them and make sure I think everything's all right. I had exterior muscle consciousness, but nothing else.

1:51:25Now I'm whole body. conscious and health has a lot to do with the mind maybe more than we even realize I think unresolved traumas leads to a lot of disease so it's good to explore yourself and your mind and how you look at things and maybe change the way you look at things and don't carry this this weight around I have a friend that practices different kinds of medicines and And he had three cancers and he's convinced that it's trauma-based. Well, certainly there are data and there are a lot of real-life examples where when people hold in their pain and in particular shame, it causes disease. We've had a couple of guests that have talked about this.

1:52:16but it's kind of interesting. The original naming of the type A personality was all around people who were prone to heart attack because they didn't actually let out what was going on for them. And it's been a ride for the psychology, science world to try and figure this out. I think we'd be remiss if we don't talk a little bit about psychedelics and your experience with those. But I want to preface that with saying that my understanding is that right now you're not a psychonaut but you did explore which i find really interesting because people think if you start something you got to do it forever uh with the exception of maybe fitness and sleep and all the the basic health stuff what's so striking is it seems like you're able to go into something deep get the best of it and then get out yeah that's what i did with psychedelics i feel i wouldn't say i'll never do psychedelics again because i may be in a different space and may feel the need to do it.

1:53:13But I went through that whole experience and it was amazing. I mean, it gives you a totally different perspective on life. You said 97 was last Olympia. You realize you're done. 98 through 2000, you're kind of going through a reframe. Yeah. A whole lot of things happened as well in my personal life. My nephew passed away at 15 years old in my house and there was no explanation. Oh, man. It was very close. Oh, I'm so sorry. My marriage was, everything was falling apart. You know, everything was falling apart in my life, but maybe it had to to get reorganized. And I think I went through a period like I just want to have fun here and just, you know, I don't want to really go too deeply into stuff because it was, I kind of get into it and it was too heavy.

1:54:00So I'm like, I'm just going to have fun. and later on a friend of mine was like, you should try DMT. He was over in California and he had some pharma-grade stuff. Only in California. Yeah, I read this book when I was living in Amsterdam for a couple of years. There was no internet, so I read this book, DMT, the spirit molecule. You can get that all about DMT. So I'd heard about it. I'm like, yeah, I heard about that stuff. So we got the powder and I smoked it and I saw the,

1:54:34behind reality, if you like, the construction, the numbers and the geometry and everything's connected. And everything's one thing and we're having an experience and we can choose, you know, to experience good, bad, whatever in this reality and it's a temporary experience and everything is forever, there's no time. and all these things came in. But DMT is a very short experience, like 10 seconds or something. So then I got invited on this podcast in England called London Real. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a very early, small podcast at the time. They invited me down. I said, it sounds interesting because I like to talk.

1:55:21I can talk about different subjects if you want, whatever. So we're back, you know, before we do the podcast. We're talking away and I don't know, it came in a conversation. Yeah, DMT. Oh, yeah, I've done that. What? You've done it? Oh. Would you be willing to talk about it on the podcast? I said, is London real or London bullshit? What's the name of the podcast, man?

1:55:46And I talked about the psychedelics and my experience and it went absolutely huge because this was, I think it was like 2012. That's early. But people were stopping me on the street, and they weren't stopping me because you're that guy on, oh, it's fascinating what you talked about. And because I was on that show, then this camp from Costa Rica, they got in touch with me, and we're an ayahuasca camp. I did it once in Spain, ayahuasca. It was a great experience. And then these guys got in touch with me, and they said, how do you feel about coming to Costa Rica? and being like a headliner. I said, I don't know about that, man, because it's very private.

1:56:30I just want to do my own thing. Like in Spain, nobody knows who I am, so I did it once there. And like, I'm just doing my thing, man. I don't want to be, you know, I have your diary. I'm just here for my personal experience. And they're like, well, when it's the ceremonies, that's the shaman and the facilitators, and you're just another guy once you go in there. But during the day, can you look after the guys? I said, I don't know. Okay, let me give it a try. and people from the fitness industry or the gym or whatever were coming, and I said, why are you here? Because I was kind of interested in it.

1:57:05I was kind of curious, but I didn't know. I didn't know if it's for me. Maybe it's a hippie thing. I don't know, but when I saw that you were doing it, I said, oh, it's cool if Dorian's doing it. Let's go. So we did three camps there with like 20 people ahead. In one week, you do four sessions. so I've probably done like 20 something ayahuasca ceremonies and each time was different, each time I learned something but I got to the stage where I'm like what more can I learn, I'm not coming here to be a you know psychedelic tourist they call them, people that keep going back, keep going back well if it was helping you, why don't you keep going back, once you've learned I can't remember who it was but they said you know once you pick up the receiver and you get the message put it down right so it was over a period of time and I was like wow I just I don't feel like I need to do it anymore or I want to do it anymore it may change but I feel like I learned what I needed to learn and I helped other people on their journey as well so I got the message you know what more do I need to know if I would have sat down with you prior to your psychedelic work like right here right now would you feel different be different I believe so yeah I mean it's like it's hard to describe the whole experience how is it wow well it's different for everybody but in terms of the takeaways were some related to The biggest takeaway is everything.

1:58:47Everything, everything, everything is one thing. We are one thing. We're not a drop from the ocean. We're the ocean and a drop, as Rumi, as the Rumi saying, right? But I get it. I was saying that before, before I even read that. I was telling people, I said, imagine an ocean, yeah, that's everything. But there's a spray that's come out, like a little drop. And he thinks, oh, I'm just a little drop. Oh, poor me. No, you're the ocean as well. You'll drop back into the ocean when you... So everything is one thing. We're all connected. We're the same thing having separate experiences. That's what I got, and we're all connected.

1:59:31And the whole experience we're having is mental. Like nothing exists without observation. So this is all created by us, everything. sour imagination that doesn't really exist, if that makes sense. It might not because you've got to experience it. Listen, I'm very open. As a neuroscientist, I understand for certain that our brains are very good at extracting certain kinds of information. That's red. That's blue. I can hear your voice. That's Dorian. I'm me. But that's through a certain set of filters. Yeah, you're a machine with a computer, and it's limited. You've got certain filters. It's like someone described it.

2:00:12I forget who it was. If you were in a house and the windows were open out onto a yard, you would hear certain things and see certain things, and that's your conception of a yard. But if you were outside in the field on the other side of the yard, you'd get a very different picture, a very different experience of it. Let me give you another analogy like that. I don't know where this one came from, but I was used at one time because there's so many different levels to psychedelic experience. But I said it like this. Imagine you're in a room, whatever shape, square room, and you're in this room, and that's all that exists.

2:00:49You can see it. You can touch it. There's nothing more because you're not aware of it, right? How about if I brought a little trampoline in here and you bounced up on a trampoline and you happen to see over the wall and you see there's a whole other world out there that you didn't know about, but now you've seen it, you can't forget, right? So you'll come back to this room with a different perspective, knowing that this is not it, really. So it gives you a totally new perspective on life, I think. I'm totally on board. I will say I do think there are certain people with predisposition to psychosis that should be cautious about psychedelics.

2:01:30Oh, the camp I went to in Costa Rica is like they do a full review. They've got doctors on board and everything like that. So they do vet people before and get their medical history and all that stuff. So I'm sure there's some exceptions where maybe it might not be beneficial, but I'm not an expert on that. But if it's a real camp, and that is the thing, a lot of them are not. Or they just get as many people in there to get as much money and they don't get the attention and everything like that. So if you're going to do it, I mean, do your bit of research on who's doing it and how are they qualified and what the facility is like and everything like that.

2:02:09I mean, I've done it in Spain where it's kind of Wild West. They don't really tell you too much, you know. But I can handle that. Not everyone else can. So better to go to a place where they do it very professionally. And with a shaman, you know, a proper, like, traditional, not a guy. I mean, I could say I'm a shaman and put camps on if I'm not. You know, these guys, it's passed down through the family and they do maybe a decade of training before they're going in there and actually administering the ceremonies. So I think that's important. Yeah, I think the data on psilocybin for depression, MDMA, not recreationally but therapeutically for PTSD, ibogaine for PTSD and for alcohol and other substance abuse disorders is very intriguing.

2:02:56And I'm not trying to hedge here and play, but I think it's very interesting. I think people forget. This is one of these things where I almost forgot to say this. Whether or not it's therapy, working out a pill, or psychedelics, ultimately what we're after is this thing of brain plasticity, right? I mean, they're all aimed at the same end point. But the psychedelics are particularly interesting because the experience of them, not just the effects they have long term, but both the experience of being in the psychedelic journey as well as the long-term outcomes seem to create something that done correctly brings people more peace.

2:03:38Well, there's a guy in England that's now funded and has been doing the experiments, and he got like brain activity before and afterwards. I don't know what basis it's on, but let's say the brain activity that they can see is like maybe 30%, lit up 100%. Yeah, it's certainly – So it's activating parts of your brain that's kind of sleeping, I guess. Yeah, it's revealing a bunch of lateral connections in what we call the default mode network. Basically, more brain areas are talking to one another in the psychonome. Which changes your perspective. That's right. And the way you think. Yeah, changes your perception.

2:04:13Affects everything. That's right. There was a guy, funnily enough, he used to work for the government in UK, right? So they had him do a report on drugs and recreational drugs and what his conclusions were. And he said, people that take ecstasy, MDMA, on the weekend, statistically, they're much safer than somebody that does horse riding. I mean, this is a scientific, and they fired him. And a lot of scientists that work for the UK, they retired. They're like, we're scientists. You can't dictate to us what the conclusion must be. We're scientists. We just look and give you the conclusion. Anyway, Professor Knott now is working independently and funded in London, and he's doing a lot of these studies on different psychedelics and brain activity and depression and so on.

2:04:59So a lot of people that came to the camps are struggling with depression and different issues. And some of the experiences might have been unpleasant at the time. But everybody at the end of the week is like, wow, this is the most important thing I've done in my life. This is life changing. I heard that so many times, like literally from everybody that's done it. So it's worth looking into, definitely. And beyond whatever you might feel at the time, there's no side effects afterwards or anything like that. And another thing after doing these camps, I mean, you're restricted with your diet. And before you go, they give you a specific diet and things to cut out like alcohol and any other kind of drugs and so on.

2:05:57And I feel like if my brain was a computer, like at the end of the week, all the junk files have gone out. And it's just having so many ideas and inspiration and ideas for business and like it's on fire. And eventually it settles down to a more normal pace. But you feel like your computer's just been upgraded. Yeah, defragged, as they say. We mentioned schizophrenia a couple minutes ago. reminds me there are these very interesting findings. You know, there are a few exceptions to what I'm about to say, but I know that your wife is from Brazil. Yeah. And we were talking about the value of sunlight, you being from the UK.

2:06:39You know, you don't find schizophrenia near the equator. Because of the light. I'm not going to say schizophrenia is one thing, and I'm not going to say it's caused by one thing, but there's some very interesting hypotheses about certain types of winter infections make people more prone to them. Now, why would those winter infections only occur closer to the poles? It may be that, this is a theory, that some of the long wavelength light from the sun, the reds and oranges, yellows and so forth, provide a protective function on the mitochondria and at certain stages of pregnancy, because there is a genetic component to schizophrenia, but there's also an environmental component.

2:07:20Identical twins don't always both have it. Sunlight seems protective. The amount of sunlight seems protective in a way that is not trivial, that statistically is very impressive. So it's interesting, right? I think overall health, the sun is essential. I mean, I've talked about it before to friends and everything. I was like, I mean, I was in the club, right? Isn't it a ridiculous joke how we've been told to be scared of the sun when it's the giver of all life on the planet? somehow it can be bad for us. That's just ridiculous, yeah? If you go in the sun and you start to get burnt, get out of the sun.

2:08:03Or throw on a layer of clothing. Yeah, and put on a hat, yeah. Listen, man, I'm as white as they come naturally, yeah? I'm like a bottle of milk, man. But I went to Spain, and I guess my nutrition improved. Much better fruits and vegetables there, so that might be something. but I slowly introduced myself to the sun and now I can stay out all day. I might get a bit reddish because I'm pale skin but I don't get burnt or nothing. I can stay in the sun all day and yeah, I just feel much better in the sun. Everybody does. People come from England to live in Spain because of that fact and if we look between the UK and Spain, there's about a six, seven year difference in the life expectancy.

2:08:51Yeah, maybe the food's a bit better, but the sun is the key, I believe. I won't launch into a whole scientific lecture on this, but it's very interesting and not a coincidence at all that dopamine and the synthesis of dopamine in the body, it's L-tyrosine, but there's an enzyme called tyrosinase, and it's the rate-limiting enzyme for dopamine production. Dopamine makes you feel good, motivated, etc. It's correlated with the sex hormones. We know all this stuff. Certainly you do. It's also responsible for pigmentation of the skin, which is why, for instance, an Arctic fox, which is white in the winter, becomes brown in the summer through the dopamine pathway.

2:09:30So the feeling good in the sun is not a trivial thing. It's through the dopamine pathway and the melanin pathway. The other thing that's really interesting is that there's been a study recently where they gave people a glucose tolerance test, how well they manage blood sugar. insulin, et cetera. And in sunlight, or even with some sunlight just landing on their back, their metabolism goes up by about, I believe it's, you know, 29%, and their blood glucose regulation is far better. And it's because the sunlight actually gets through the body, charges the mitochondria. And actually reaches the mitochondria in the cell.

2:10:06It actually will, the long wavelength light will go all the way through your body and charge your mitochondria on the way. And this is, this is not like a hearsay. This is documented in beautiful studies. Glenn Jeffrey at University College London, another formerly pasty, pale Brit who I've known for many decades, came here, sat there and said, the more time you get in the sun, the longer your life. The more time you get in the sun, the better your blood glucose regulation. The more time you get in the sun and on and on and on. And the opposite is also true. Too much time under just LED lights and not enough sunlight is damaging to mitochondria.

2:10:41And it's a very big effect. I think this is going to be one of the biggest health issues. This is beyond vitamin D production. It includes vitamin D production, but actually vitamin D comes from the UV. The stuff they say is bad. The UV light is what triggers vitamin D production. So look, you don't want to get a sunburn. And I'm glad you mentioned that, but we have been sold a bill of goods about the sun. And I think in the next 10 years, it's going to go the same direction as lifting weights turns to fat. No one believes that because it's not true, but we were told that for decades. Oh, they used to believe it.

2:11:10I mean, when I started back in the eighties, very few women wanted to lift weights because I was scared they would get too big. And yeah, it was funny. Like, uh, people come down the gym when I was British champion or something, you know? Yeah. You know, I don't want to get too big. Like something like you, that would be great. Don't worry. It's not going to happen by accident. Don't worry. Yeah. As I always tell people, especially if women want to train the pump, you get in the gym, that's as big as you're ever going to get within a couple of months. So if you ever see yourself in the mirror at the gym and go, oh my God, that's far too big.

2:11:44Go ahead, quit for two weeks. But you know, exactly. I mean, people think they're going to go to sleep and wake up huge. But it's interesting, you know, because I went in Spain, yeah? And we live right by the beach, me and Gal, a lot on the beach. We're outside a lot, right? I had my vitamin D tested and it was only 35. I thought just from the sun. Some people just don't convert vitamin D that well. and, or produce vitamin D that well and need to supplement it. And it does seem to have some genetic component, which makes sense. Speaking of which, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about cannabis, because I think one of our early correspondences, I did an episode about cannabis and I said, listen, I'm worried about psychotic risk.

2:12:28But I said, listen, there could be medical uses. And I've done a couple of different episodes. Also, you had Peter Atiyah on here, right? I had Atiyah on. Yeah, I heard it on my podcast, but we didn't approach the subject. Okay. No, I mean, I think that I want to be clear. My stance is one where I've seen people benefit. I've seen data that for people with a predisposition to psychosis, the high THC can be problematic. This is just what I've seen. Yeah. But you sent me a note saying that, first of all, that your experience with it has been good. So I want to give you the opportunity to share that.

2:13:00And then some of the things that you speculate about, because I'm an open book. Well, to give you some background, yeah, I guess cannabis is a bit like cultural. In Birmingham where I grew up, we have a lot of Jamaicans. So, I mean, Jamaicans, they smoke cannabis, they make tea. It's just a cultural thing. It's normal for them, right? So it was about, I had a couple of friends that their dads were Jamaican. So I was smoking it anyway, but I wasn't smoking it because I thought there was any particular health benefits. I was just smoking it and drinking alcohol, like hanging out.

2:13:40But my friend's dad's who were Jamaican was like, oh, this is protects against this and we drink tea for this and the women take it for menstrual pain, PMA. So I kind of heard that, but I'm like, yeah, okay, whatever. And I would smoke occasionally when I was training. And when I went to live in Amsterdam for a little bit, As I said, I did a lot of reading, started reading about it. I started searching for studies. And I found those massive, massive health benefits from THC and different cannabinoids. Some of it really counterintuitive, I guess, for people. You had Peter Atiyah on here, right?

2:14:30So you asked Peter, I think, what about smoking cannabis? How does that affect your lungs? And I think he was pretty much saying it's probably like the same as nicotine. Tobacco, right? I think that's what he said. But he's probably not aware of a 25-year-long massive study that was done at UCLA. Dr. Donald Taskin, I think his name is. So they put these people into groups, cigarette smokers, cannabis smokers, and control group that didn't smoke anything.

2:15:07So after 25 years, what did they find? Cigarette group, we already know, right? Loss of lung function, increased cancers, blah, blah, blah, blah. In the cannabis group, and heavy daily smoking, 25 years. I'll agree because I've been heavily smoking every day for 30 years, right? So what was the effect on the lungs? Some negative, yes, because of the heat and the tar and everything like that. It could irritate the airways. It reduced somewhat the antioxidant layer on your airways. So statistically, it would be more susceptible to an infection, maybe bronchitis or something like that. Although, of all my friends, I don't know anyone that got it.

2:15:56But statistically, it would be more likely to get it. Lung function. Interesting. 25 years of cannabis smoking compared to the non-smokers, there was a slight increase in lung capacity in the cannabis smokers. I'll have to check out this study. No cancers. Other groups got cancers, but this one don't, after 25 years. So that's the lung cancer. So maybe Peter was not privy to this information. Well, I'll check out the study. I'm not familiar with it, but I appreciate you raising it. I wonder if it's the THC and whether or not edible forms of THC would have the same effect or whether or not it's the smoking of cannabis.

2:16:35Do you know Rick Simpson? I know of Rick Simpson. RSO. Rick Simpson, anyway, he made a concentrated oil from cannabis. Now they sell it in all the pharmacies called RSO, although I spoke to Rick, it's nothing to do with him. He just, because he's the guy that originally did it. In Canada, and he cured hundreds of people with cancers, he made a documentary called run from the cure so the guy was growing cannabis on his farm in Canada making the oil from it because he discovered by mistake he had some skin cancer and he discovered by mistake that the oil got rid of it and he started anyway he was persecuted by the authorities in Canada because he wasn't selling it he was literally putting his money into it growing plants and giving it away for free, right?

2:17:25Watch the documentary. It explains it all. And he was persecuted there, and he lives in Europe now. And there's a lady at the University of Madrid, Dr. Sanchez. She is proven in a lab setting, THC. You can even get the video, the speeded-up video, literally eating the cancer cells. Oh, yeah, I've seen this. I think we're finally in 2026 breaking into new ground where people are looking at psychedelics, looking at other compounds, nutrition, et cetera. I do think we're – I'm an optimist. I like to think that in part because of discussions like this and an open-mindedness that has not existed before, that we're starting to break new ground in at least exploring things, right?

2:18:12Being willing to explore things. You won't be shocked to hear, but many people might be shocked to hear, that the initial group that was exploring different types of breathing to achieve different brain body states, people like Stan Graf and all those people, a lot of them were run out of universities. They thought it was – somehow it was looked at as too counterculture. Now, my lab, I'm not running a lab right now, but I still teach, but my lab has published clinical studies, right? Well, in that case, privately funded, but peer-reviewed studies on breath work for anxiety control, breath work for sleep augmentation.

2:18:48And so to us now, like, breath work sounds like the kind of like, oh, of course, right? But 20 years ago, if you said breath work, people were like, okay, where's your magic carpet and there's the door and let's lock you out. You can manipulate your brain and your body with breath work. Sure. Yeah, you can really shift your state. And the thing with the cannabis, I've also seen it in my life. I've seen it with real people, and there's thousands of people out on the Internet if you search. Well, certainly for glaucoma, a field that I was involved in for a long time, eye pressure, cannabis is a well-utilized tool to relieve eye pressure.

2:19:21And the major cause of blindness, second to cataract only, is glaucoma. Due to elevated eye pressure in cannabis, it reduces eye pressure. That's well-established. So in the ophthalmology community, they've really embraced it. I do have one question that I think is in the back of many people's minds or should be. You were clearly and still are a very driven guy, although now you have this kind of additional. I'm trying to be balanced now. Yeah, you have an on-off switch right now. Maybe it was all gas pedal before. Many people that I know who smoked a lot of weed, some of them became very amotivated.

2:19:59They like. Do it tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. So you are a unique specimen in the sense that you're super driven, right? And so I had this, you know, dime store psychologist theory for a long time with my friends, which was, hey, if you're really driven, maybe you should do some things to relax. Maybe cannabis is right for you a little bit. But if you're lazy, I don't know if that's the right drug for you. If you're lazy, you're lazy, right? Maybe it just amplifies it. You know, there's a test you can do now. I don't know if it's here, but I did it in Spain. So we have an endocannabinoid system, right, inside your body.

2:20:39But it varies. So there's a swab you can do, and it gives you a report on your endocannabinoid system, right? And there was... One of them is a likelihood of negative effects from 1 to 10. So the lady did my thing, and I was kidding around with her. I said, what does it say there? Do I need THC for life? Just messing about. She said, well, you're not far off. She said, look at this. The likelihood of you having negative effects from cannabis, you're on one out of ten. So, for instance, my wife, we've been married 12, 13 years now. Sorry, Gal, if I made a mistake. She doesn't go anywhere near it.

2:21:25She feels totally paranoid if she has a little bit of cannabis. So I'm well aware of, you know, different endocannabinoid systems maybe or different personalities. So for some people, they will get a lot of negative effects. So you have to find out for yourself. But it's interesting that they've got this test now that actually proves that your endocannabinoid system might be slightly different from mine. So I might benefit more from THC. Maybe you benefit more from CBD or balance. So it's interesting now that we're able to get this information. And I'm very driven and I'm very disciplined. And my wife thinks I'm hyperactive.

2:22:09I'm kind of quietly, I look very relaxed, but I'm constantly thinking and moving. So probably for me it's beneficial at this stage. and having this discussion with my friend, oh, it's not good and it's only for losers. I said, you like to watch that American football, don't you, on Saturday? He's like, yeah. I said, you know they did a survey with NFL players and NBA players? How many of them use cannabis on a daily basis? In between 70 % and 80%. So we're talking about the most elite athletes in the world, highest paid athletes. They wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't benefiting them. And they're saying it's benefiting them.

2:22:50But more to the point, how about the owners of these clubs? If they thought this was having a negative effect on them, they would stamp it out right away, but they don't. And these are, you know, the basketball players are saying they smoke blunts before they go on the court, and they play better, and they recover better, and so on. And, yeah, it makes sense. So I would say it's good to hear you say that it probably varies by person. Your wife, it's not for her. It's clearly for you. And it probably varies by profession and natural drive. But maybe other things too. I mean, I know some artists, musicians who need to drink and smoke.

2:23:31It's creative, yeah. And others who don't. And, you know, now nicotine's made a big comeback in the oral forms of nicotine. You know, I feel like just like with dogs, there's tremendous variation in body size, temperament. Absolutely, even food. Humans are different. Some food for some people, they're allergic to it. It gives them a bad effect and somebody else not. So there's no rule that applies to everybody 100%. But cannabis has a very negative image, let's say, because of over 100 years of propaganda. It was a medicine. You could get it on the shelves in America in 1900. It was for many, many things.

2:24:10Queen Victoria, the famous longest queen, she used to use cannabis for period pains and this and that. So it was used as a medicine for a long time until the pharmaceutical industry came along. And then all of a sudden they're making movies, you know, if a white woman smokes cannabis, she's going to sleep with black men and all kind of crazy stuff. There was one called Reefer Madness, you know, smoking, it's going to send you crazy. I mean, this is in people's minds, you know. It's a bad thing. It's a drug. It's not. It's a plant medicine. And it grows from the ground like that. It's stronger now.

2:24:49It's higher in THC because it's been crossbreed and crossbreed. Like a dog, you know, you want a dog with a long nose. It's the same thing with plants. So people want to get more bang for their buck. So the breeders are trying to breed more THC into it. And sometimes this is not good for people because the CBD is kind of calmed down and balanced with the THC. Now the CBD is down and the TH is up there. So that's why it's more likely to make you feel a little edgy now because the TH is kind of active. I had a guest on here named Chris McCurdy. He's a scientist out in Florida. And he taught me three things I think that you'll find interesting in light of what we're talking about.

2:25:31One, that every pharmaceutical company has what are called bioprospectors that send people quietly to the jungle, to other places. and not just the jungle, to find plants that are used locally and then to find specific molecules and develop highly potent extracts to grab just one effect. The second thing is we were talking about kratom. I think the proper pronunciation is kratom. And he was talking about how the kratom plant and even the cocoa plant, chewing on the leaves is known to give people a kind of balanced, in both cases, kind of stimulant relaxation effect. I did that in Peru when we went to Machu Picchu.

2:26:09Interesting. I feel like maybe I had a coffee or something. Okay. I'm curious about it. Well, it's interesting because what happens is people take the plant, find the molecule that produces like the real dopamine high in the case of cocaine, or kratom, and they then develop kratom isolates or kratom-like synthetics or THC-like synthetics. And so what, especially in the United States, there's this tendency to take a plant which is very balanced in its chemistry and then to extract the thing that gives you an amplified effect, which is most habit-forming and addictive, and then drive that to market.

2:26:46But then we demonize the whole plant. But in its natural form, you can't patent it. So you can't make a lot of money. So you need to change it a little bit or extract something out of there. Cannabis grows from the ground. Yes, it's stronger than it used to be back in the 60s because the growers bred it like that. But it's not synthetic. It's just a plant crossed with a plant. You know, it's a natural process. That's why farmers can't make money from it. They have to change it from its natural form, balance. But when they do that, it doesn't work so well. Well, the Internet has caused a great many problems, instant gratification, this kind of thing.

2:27:25But I also think it's solved a great number of problems. And one of the things that it's solved is that the discussions about plants versus isolates, about cannabis for one person, maybe not for another, psychedelics. So TRT versus steroids, I like to think that we are in a whole new era now where people hopefully are starting to search for information differently. It's not like it was. You can find it now at your fingertips, man. It's great. When I first was starting to get interested in psychedelics and cannabis, I mean, as I said, I was in Amsterdam. So there's stores there with books in it that I wouldn't normally find even in England.

2:28:06so that's when I had to you know when I started bodybuilding I had to go out and buy magazines or get a book it wasn't so easy now at your fingertips you can do everything, don't listen to me, go check out that study if you want, I didn't make it but I can tell you after 30 years of daily smoking I went for a fitness evaluation, I was in Brazil a couple of years ago they said a test biologist, I should be 38 and my breathing and my heart rate recovery from exercise is excellent. Well, no one's doubting your vigor. I promise you that. Bruce Lee. I'm similar to your wife in that it's not for me.

2:28:45But I'm, you know, like to each their own, right? I have the things that work for me and the things that don't. And I'm open-minded. I have a couple more questions. One is about your wife vis-a-vis training for women. Early on, we were talking about training. And I'll point people to some other references that you've put out there about training. but you made it very clear kind of what the beginner versus more advanced stuff is. I want to make sure that we touch on she's quite the athlete. Do you think women who want to get stronger, maybe just a bit more size here and there, but not overall size, do you think they should train differently?

2:29:20And if so, how? Differently from men? Yes. I don't think so. I mean, the same muscles in the same place, same rules apply. The muscles are not going to grow unless you overload them. is just going to be limited by the fact that you're female and you don't produce a lot of testosterone, which makes it much more difficult to build muscle. So we used to have this nonsense word. I said it's a nonsense word. No, I don't want to get bigger. I want to get toned. All right, but there is no such thing as toned. What you mean is you want to look firmer, right? Yes, it's called building muscle and losing body fat.

2:29:56So your arms might be the same size, but it's a different composition now. It looks leaner, it looks more shapely. It's the same thing. It's bodybuilding. You're building muscle and losing body fat. That's the only way you can change your shape. You can do yoga, you can do all these things. It's great for your mobility, your internal musculature. But the only way to really change your physical appearance is resistance training, weight training, whatever you want to call it. Maybe they don't want to call it bodybuilding. Oh, no, resistance training. That sounds better, but it's the same bloody thing.

2:30:29you know, you need to build muscle and lose body fat, then you'll look leaner. And don't worry about building too much muscle, unless you're a genetic outlier that's genetically very muscular and maybe higher testosterone levels. The girls that you see in competition, they're all using steroids. All of them, even the bikini competition. They had this bikini class for women that they introduced years ago because the idea is that women are getting too big now in the other classes. So we'll make this bikini class, which is a fit, you know, Young girl that's been trained a little bit, bikini on the beach.

2:31:01They started doing juice and got bigger. I'm like, what are they going to do next? Bikini light?

2:31:08Unfortunately, when it gets competitive, people start using products. So all those girls you see doing competitions, they're all using steroids. So you're not going to get like that by mistake. You need to build some muscle mass, change your appearance, and be healthier. Resistance training, just the same as a man. Maybe you want to do extra work on your glutes or something because that's a big thing for women. Maybe you do another exercise there that the man doesn't do. But the same thing applies, right? Stress, adaptation, recovery, adaptation. It's the same principle. It's not voodoo. There's a whole industry now, right, online and simple, easy facts don't sound sexy.

2:32:01So everybody tries to make everything very complicated in order to make the client perceive more value.

2:32:12I was talking to a guy once who was a top trainer. I said, why have you got to train your client's routine every random four weeks, six weeks, whatever it is you do? I said, it's nonsense. People should do the same exercises that work. right? Don't keep changing it around. You can't even track it. Yeah, I know, but they want it. They like to change it around. I'm like, maybe it's a good business strategy, but I'm like, just tell people the truth and it is what it is. It's much harder to package and sell drive. Yeah, it's hard work, sweat, push yourself. But there's a beauty in that. There's a beauty in pushing yourself and you know once you overcome something then you feel more confident and stronger to overcome something again right and this bleeds into everything right into your life like the gym is a microcosm of your life right if you're gonna push your back in a gym and not push yourself when it gets tough you're gonna oh no screw that put it down i'm probably gonna do the same thing in life when things come along that are tough you know so it's not just a physical thing it's the it's the mental thing that controls everything if you become a more resilient more confident stronger person that goes into everything in your life so there's more to bodybuilding than big muscles and competitions and iron your shirts yeah iron your shirts lower your cortisol yeah I didn't even know why I was doing that.

2:33:47I was just doing it. I'm imagining that now. I'm going to start ironing my own shirts. Tell me about DY Nutrition. I'm not getting paid to ask this. I'm just very curious. Where is it? What is it? When I was bodybuilding, I was competing. I was contracted to work with a weeder company. I'd be their guy in the magazines and hold the product and everything. But I was interested in supplements. I was always reading nutrition supplements, anything to do with my craft. And I spoke to Joe Weider and I said, listen, can I work with the guys? And, you know, no, no, no. Just be the guy. So I was interested in getting involved then because I thought the Weider supplements definitely could be better, right?

2:34:35But he didn't want me involved in that. And so through various businesses over the years, I built D.Y. Nutrition, which is my own brand. I was just doing it myself, me and a partner and doing it ourselves. And over the years, then I found some good partners. And we've got to the point now where we have our own pharmaceutical facility in Europe. And we've been hitting the bodybuilding market all over Europe and Middle East. And now we're shifting. We're still going to maintain that, but we're shifting into health, wellness, all the things that we're talking about, and making some real kick-ass product for that market as well.

2:35:19So there's almost like two Dorians, Dorian the bodybuilder and Dorian now who's in his 60s, and being concerned about my own health and longevity and quality of life. and what supplements can you take to help in that area. So we're developing that whole kind of new area that I'm really interested in and really involved in the development of the products and everything like that. And we are, after many, many years of demand, coming to the U.S. pretty soon. So that's one of the reasons I'm over here, meeting with some people and everything. So look out for us. We'll be in the U.S. soon as well. Great.

2:36:03So I imagine it's the quote-unquote conventional stuff like whey protein, creatine, glutamine, but some additional things as well? Yeah, we've got pre-workout, creatine, pre-workout is called blood and guts, and that's the first product we're going to be bringing here to the U.S. There'll be a lot more shouting in gyms. Yeah. I'm working on something special. I don't want to say what it is yet, but something special with the Blood and Gods product. So you get a bit more than a product for myself. We'll wait till that's ready to go. Cool. Yeah, let us know. Yeah. Let us know. Final question, and it's arguably a big one, but feel free to handle it however you want.

2:36:49You've had a very unusual life relative to most humans on the planet, past or present. It's been interesting. It's been a wild ride. And again, I'm struck by your internal sense that you were destined for something different and great. You're really leaning into it in such a logical way and also knowing when to rack that and go to the next thing, keeping the best of what was and grabbing the best of what's next and so forth, as well as maintaining your health. So here's my question. Yeah. Because you did all that. You're doing it now. It's not over. and you also have this experience of psychedelics and consciousness and you're a thinker.

2:37:29You're a thinking guy. That's one of the reasons I like to smoke cannabis because I just go into thinking. It breaks all the boxes. You and Rogan can talk about it that way. And for the rest of us, we end up in a little ball scared that the lint is going to put you in this choice. It's happened to a lot of people that want me to smoke with me. My wife says when they're like, she's like, don't do it. Well, I can't, I don't enter marital disputes. But so what do you think this is all about, man? Not just for you, but for everyone. I mean, like a lot of people look up to you, they look to your story, but it's your insight and your experience that I think is what's so intriguing.

2:38:13What do you think this is all about? I mean, why are we here? We're God playing hide and seek with his self. we're consciousness having an experience being in a physical reality and we're all the same thing we appear to be different and separate and we are we're having an individual experience but ultimately we're the same thing having all those experiences at the same time if you want to call that god it's just everything that's what i got from psychedelics and we're all on our own journeys in this reality, maybe to learn things or maybe to explore what it's like to be in this reality because consciousness is not physical, it's just consciousness.

2:39:02And I believe it's in everything, in the plants, in the animals, in us. It's all the same thing, having kind of different experiences.

2:39:13And it doesn't end, you know. is like we got the TV on, right? TV's on there, we're watching it, we turn it off. Or the TV blows up or whatever. But the energy that was going into the TV is still there somewhere, right? So we are still somewhere, even after this experience finishes. This much I'm pretty sure about. That's what I got. And live life to its fullest. Like, you're going to come here and have this opportunity and just stay here and go from here to here and do this. And I never wanted to do that. I knew, I felt there's more to life. And there still is. I want adventure, I want experiences.

2:39:59And it's been up and down. And I feel like now, like, I'm the most balanced and the most peaceful that I've been. I know my place and try to enjoy every day and spread love, you know, because that's where we come from. We've forgotten. But it's all creation is the same as love. It's the same frequency. That's what I get from my experience. And I look forward to every day. and being somewhat of a mentor and a teacher, I guess, at this point, you know, I do these camps like once or twice a year, just like six people or something, where I take them through my training methods and in the gym and we do the theory and they become certified at the end of the week.

2:40:55So we call it DYHIT training certification. But I said to the guys, I said, I think I'm going to change the name of this thing to the DY Experience. because the training is part of it, but it almost becomes something else by the end of the week, spending so much time together and talking and training together. And I see the people when they're under stress in the gym. I see things about them that I could maybe share and to be helpful. So I feel all the things I've been through is giving me the experience to be able to do that and help and inspire other people. and my own kids and anyone that's around me can benefit from my experiences.

2:41:42I think at this point that's probably the reason I did it all in the first place. You know, I wanted to be this guy. I wanted to be Mr. Olympia. I wanted to have these trophies. I wanted to make the money and be famous and all that stuff, I suppose. But what was the point of all that? I think I get it now more than ever, yeah. So I'm feeling a good place. I feel peaceful. I feel balanced.

2:42:09And that's my role now, I think, you know, just to inspire and help other people. From my experiences and my knowledge, I think that's where I'm at now, yeah. Well, you have certainly inspired me and millions of other people. And you're going to continue to by virtue of your accomplishments, what you've said here today and everything going forward. I can't express enough gratitude to you. You've really been a leader without realizing it in domains of life that you don't realize for, you know, like a guy who was plugging away in the lab, also liked working out, who didn't become an athlete or a bodybuilder, but really loved fitness.

2:42:50I'm just one example of millions of people who have been truly inspired by you. You've shaped and changed millions of lives. That's really powerful, man. And I really appreciate that when people come up to me. It's real. And when I saw that you were into some of the same music and that you like Blondie and Bulldogs. I met her. Did you really? Oh, yeah. You know, it was 1990 in New York. I met her in the gym there. And, man, I didn't have a fucking camera. Man, she's amazing. I remember as a kid, and I was like, man, you know, some guys like the swimsuit models. I'm like. No, she was punk. I'm like, Blondie is it.

2:43:33And so just, you know, there are these points of convergence that one feels. And again, I'm saying this for me, but millions of people feel it. They go, oh, Bulldog or Blondie or whatever it is, that you like the hack squat, not the Smith rack at a certain stage of your career. I guess you liked both. But, you know, these things matter in ways that most people will never get the opportunity to say directly to you and thank you. So on behalf of all of them. Thanks. Thank you. And also just on behalf of. Thanks for having me on the show. This has been awesome. And I'm super grateful that we did it.

2:44:05And I'm excited to train tomorrow. Oh, you're going to get your ass kicked tomorrow, man. Yeah. I'll admit that I'm 1 % scared, but 99 % fired. Don't worry. You'll be alive. I still got some fuck you. I told the guy once in a, they were filming me. So it came out. I was like, just fucking get on this leg press and do this and bring it down on a control and press it up and just fucking do that till I tell you to stop. I said, listen, you're not going to die. But if you do, you won't know about it. So don't worry, man. Let's go. Awesome. All right, man. Let's see you at Gold's tomorrow. See you at Gold's tomorrow.

2:44:40Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dorian Yates. To learn more about Dorian and what he's doing now, please see the links in the show note captions. Also linked in the show note caption is the video of the high intensity, low volume workout that Dorian took me and my producer Rob through. at Gold's Gym Venice. We trained back, it was brutal, and it was awesome. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

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2:45:43This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am HubermanLab on all social media platforms.

2:46:20So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

2:46:54We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to HubermanLab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dorian Yates. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science. Thank you.