Dr. Allan Schore: How Relationships Shape Your Brain

28:39The D babies. These are disorganized babies. So you have secure, you have two types of organized insipures, the avoidant and the anxious, and then you have a disorganized, disoriented one. Now, ultimately, that person under stress is not able to order, regulate, or to interact, to regulate. So what they will do at that point now, now I'm now thinking about, let's say PTSD, various borderline personalities, that person now literally can't go to the other for order regulation or inter -active regulation. That person now will use a defense literally to shut down the attachment system, and that's exactly what dissociation is.

29:33Dissociation just shuts down the attachment. So in the anxious attachment, you have a continual activation of the attachment system, which means a continual activation of the right hemisphere, all of the time. In the secure, dismissive attachment, you have a deactivation of the attachment system, which would be a deactivation of the right brain. So in the end, a secure attachment is an efficient one, but it's an efficient one that can switch back and forth between that. Not only that, it also, at a later point in time when the left comes online, it can also communicate much better with the left hemisphere, then without that.

30:15Regulation theory is essentially a theory of the development of the self in an optimal situation, but it also talks about the psychopathogenesis of the self, the early origins of psychiatric disorders and personality disorders. And I'm thinking about not only schizophrenia and depression, but I'm now thinking about narcissistic personality disorders, borderline personality disorders, maybe we'll come back to more on that. And then ultimately, the repair of the self. So regulation theory is about the development of the self, the psychopathogenesis itself, and then the repair of the self, because these attachment situations are now going to play out under all periods of stress.

30:58The right hemisphere is dominant for the stress response. The right hemisphere is dominant for the sympathetic nervous system, the energy expending, and the right hemisphere is dominant for the power sympathetic nervous system. It's so again, all of that will play out at later points under stress. And when those systems break down, that's when the patient will will form symptomatologies and come into therapy. And in therapy, the therapist now, the key, I'm jumping here. No, this is great, because there's a right brain to right brain interaction between the mother and the infant. There's also a right brain to right brain interaction between the therapist and the patient.

31:46And the key to both of them is regulation. Person is coming in into dysregulated state. The key to that is regulation. And the key to any form of therapy, whatever the form of it is, again, is interactive regulation, and it's a therapeutic relationship. The thing which is the best indicator of whether somebody will do well out of therapy, and whether a clinician will do well out of therapy, is how well they can deal with the therapeutic relationship. And a really good therapist literally knows how to bring back those attachment things there, because now the person is starting to feel safety and trusted, and it's suddenly attachment is about safety and trust, which is very much autonomic.

32:36But again, here, the key to therapy is being able to form a therapeutic relationship with the patient. So the key here is can the therapist form co -create a therapeutic relationship with an avoidant patient, with a secure patient, with anxious patient, with a borderline patient. As you can imagine, the toughest thing is going to be able to do with the borderline patient, with a schizophrenic patient. So what you have here is that the attachment dynamics are being so in the very first session, what's happening? The therapist is listening to the verbalizations of the patient in order to diagnose and understand the symptomatology.

33:25But the therapist is also listening beneath the words, and the patient is tracking the attachment relationship underneath it, tracking the arousal and the arousal dysregulation underneath that, tracking it in his own body, so to speak, etc. And again, that is a different type of listening. Again, the therapist is listening to a left brain, but more or less the therapist is listening to the right brain. And the question is, how does the therapist do that? And in order just for the record for the therapist to be able to get to the attachment dynamics, which are right, laterally, the therapist has got to switch out of the left into the right.

34:04And there's a term for that. The term for that is surrender. Surrender. You cannot consciously, purposely put yourself into the right. You've got to let go. You've got to let go, think let it be, so to speak. I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is an all -in -one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens. I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice a day is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.

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35:17In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1 .com slash Huberman to claim a special offer. For this month only, November 2024, AG1 is giving away one three month supply of omega -3 fatty acids from fish oil, in addition to the usual welcome kit of five free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D3K2 with your order. Omega -3 fatty acids are critical for brain health, mood, cognition, and much more. Again, go to drinkag1 .com slash Huberman to claim this special offer. Tell me more about surrender. I just want to make sure I understand this is surrender on the part of the therapist trying to yes, listen to the narrative that the patient is sharing, but also paying attention to the underlying emotional state is the person quaking.

36:10Are they angry? Is there feelings of despair, shock, disgust, right? So they're carrying this in their parallel tracks and then is the goal of the therapist, if they're an effective one, to then soothe the patient or is it to allow the patient to have some sort of catharsis, some release of this? Like at what point does the therapist intervene and try and coordinate and show the patient a different way to think about and feel about the topic. What I'm suggesting here is that essentially the therapist is listening left brain to left brain, but the therapist also is always listening beneath the words, et cetera, and he's listening to the right brain to right brain communication.

36:57And the patient now who is depressed is coming out with right brain communications, their sadness and the voice, the face is clearly dysregulated. Essentially, as the therapist is tracking the emotional arousal, whether it's into hyporeusel and depression or hyporeusel into anxiety, the first thing there is to synchronize with that patient so that my physiology is syncing with their physiology and now through the right insular, interceptively, I now literally am feeling in my body what the patient is feeling in their body. I now understand that patient from the inside out and incidentally what I'm picking up in my body about the dysregulation of that patient may be very different than the verbal report that that patient is giving at that time.

37:58But the key here literally, just like the mother, is synchronizing with that baby's crescendos and the decendos of that autonomic state of those emotional state. I'm picking up those points where they are shifting into and out of an emotional state. I'm synchronizing with that. And then ultimately, when I'm in sync with that kind of thing, then at that point, purely implicitly, I'm now starting to slow the tone of my voice if I want to reduce that arousal down or I'm up regulating the voice. At that point in time, I am now interactively regulating. And we are now synchronized together. So essentially, what's going to happen is that as we synchronize as they're going to dysregulation, we're now synchronizing together as we're going down into regulation.

38:49So the therapist can literally and somatically show the patient what auto regulation is like or what coordinated regulation is like. And you'll see it on my face. Face voice gesture. You'll see it on my face. You'll see it in the tone of my voice. You'll see it in my gestures. Those three sensory modalities are now going back and forth between us. So the key of the first session literally is not only to diagnose, really, it's to start to begin to synchronize with that patient and to form a therapeutic alliance with that patient. And at the end of the first session, the patient may say, I don't know why, but I'm feeling better.

39:38And I have some idea that you can understand, but it's got to be more than that, what I am feeling literally. So often nowadays, I think we hear that adult romantic relationships can provide a healing of some of the failures of childhood attachment. And there's also a phrase thrown around a lot that we need to learn to parent ourselves. This is more of a pop psychology, online, social media thing, that people need to learn to mother and father themselves at some level to self -soothe and to, you know, who knows what that means. I'm not going to try and define it. It's not operationally defined.

40:23So the question I have is to what extent do you think the process that you just described with a therapist can start to rewire some of the capacity to auto -regulate or coordinated regulate? Essentially here, what you have is over time, partly because of this synchronicity. First of all, let me, let me, let me spell synchronicity with the capital less. What I mean by that is in the last five years, a huge amount of information has come out about this idea about interpersonal synchronicity. The term synchronicity comes from the Greek synch meaning the same chronic time, same time. So that literally two people literally are synchronized in the same, we are feeling something in the same moment and we are feeling it spontaneously between ourselves, we are feeling that kind of situation.

41:19So again here, the key to the mother really even more than the order regulation, the key is interactive regulation. Number one, number two, it's occurring on an implicit level. The mother literally is doing this without any conscious awareness. She's doing this intuitively. The right hemisphere is intuitive and it's images think it's not rational and logical. The key to any disorder, whatever it is, is the regulation of a particular state. The regulation of rage, the regulation of loss, the regulation, the disregulation of shame, a disgust. So essentially, what you have is the regulation of all of these emotions, but that regulation I want to point out is all implicit.

42:02And here's where the skill of being with patients over long periods of time is the key here because the key to making changes in the patient is not what you say to the patient or what you do to the patient. It's how to be with the patient. You understand the difference, how to be with that patient, especially while that person's being is in a disregulated state. Now by definition, when they're coming in on the first session, they are in a disregulated state. So again, it's implicit, it's not explicit. If explicit regulation is an intellectual understanding of my symptoms, implicit is an unconscious understanding at a physiological level, at a psychobiological level of that.

42:56And it's an elite synchrony is right on is the mechanism underneath empathy. Now we know, empathy literally has to be there, but empathy is a right brain function. And there is a difference. I said there's a difference in the hemispheres. There's a difference between emotional empathy where I am feeling what you are feeling and we are sharing the same feeling. And I don't have to think about that literally. I know at that point in time we are in the same place. There's a difference between emotional empathy on the right and cognitive empathy on the left. Cognitive empathy is an understanding that makes no changes because essentially what we're attempting to do is make the changes in the right.

43:47Now the changes in the right are going to be in the right axis. They're going to be the orbital frontal cortex, which is the executive regulator of the right brain. The dorsal lateral cortex is the executive regulator of the left brain. The orbital frontal cortex now starts to form new connections with the singulate, the insular, and the amygdala. And that's where you're now going to see the changes. But again, the changes are due to the regulation. So you'll see the person now starting to come into more regulated states. And the key is synchrony. So what's happening here, there's a strong therapeutic alliance, safety and trust.

44:33And in that situation now, the more synchrony that is there between the two, the more interactive regulation, there's between the two. And first there will be synchrony between the patient and the therapist. Then there will be synchrony and it's a rack of regulation between that person and maybe other people, maybe a wife or partner and ultimately in the symptomatology will change. Because remember, the symptomatology is this regulation. And the whole key is to change it to regulation. Fascinating. There are a couple of questions I have before we move forward about mother infant attachment as opposed to father infant attachment.

45:17So that's one. And I'll ask these again in a moment, but I think you'll see where I'm going here. And then I'm fascinated by the idea that these circuits get established early in life. Then are repurposed for adult relationships. They can be modified in the way that you just described. But that they cross gender and gender lines. So for instance, a female baby can form these patterns of attachment with their mother female caretaker. But then assuming that baby grows up to be a heterosexual woman and she has attachments to men, then these things can be reactivated across gender lines. So this formation of the circuitry is not gender specific.

46:07Although it sounds like it's important that it be the mother to child in some way. You keep saying mother child to caretaker. So to just spell them out one by one, first question. Are there any data about the formation of the circuits in the baby where the mother is either not available if it's an adopted mother, if it's a child raised by extended family? I mean, there's so many different configurations. But you get the point. All right. Here's what I'm suggesting. First of all, there has been some conflict on this. But after 30 years on this, I believe that there is a primary attachment figure.

46:49And the primary attachment figure is the person who was the interactive regulator of that baby when that baby is on the stress between age zero and two. Yeah. Or let me say it even another way. The primary attachment figure is the person who provides the right brain for that baby when that baby's right brain is this regulated could be dad could be mom could be. Yes, it's true. Women are better at reading nonverbal cues than men are, but it could be. And incidentally, we now have some evidence that showing that men do have right brains. For a second there, I wasn't sure if you were joking, but I don't know.

47:30Maybe that's reflective of an after you right brain. All right. Now that being the case, what's happening here is that in the first year or two, the mother's right brain, she is the person who is the right brain in which in most cultures is woman, but does not have to be. It could be a stay at home dad who literally has a good right brain. And maybe a couple are figuring out that literally, you know, he'd be better in that position, but it needs that right brain. But other than that, what happens here when when it goes now into the second year to the end of second year and the father comes online, got me?

48:02At that point in time, the father now becomes a primary attachment figure also with, but he has some differences the way he's dealing with that baby. He's usually more arousing with that baby and that the play is more arousing with that baby. So more activation of the sympathetic autonomic. Yeah. So sort of more up, let's call it up level play. Exactly. You're dealing with more up regulation and being able to tolerate more hyper -round states because in the second year, one of the things that the father will do with the infant is with toddler infant first year, toddler second year, rough and tumble pay for example, rough and tumble play.

48:40So the father is that. So the father literally is now teaching the child literally how to take risks, but the father is now moving more towards autonomy and independence. The mother was there at the beginning about interactive regulation. So the father is playing that role and I've also suggested that just as the mother is shaping that baby's right brain in the first year, the father is now shaping that baby's left brain towards the end of the first year, second and into the third year that he's shaping that baby's his left brain to that baby's left brain. That being the case, he may also earlier on have had good experiences with that baby early on in life and a good example of that would be a father who was tender, tender yet at the same time is instrumental and is teaching things about the world.

49:41So one brain is shaped by the mother figure, the brother by the father figure. What about under situations where there's really just one primary caretaker? This is increasingly common nowadays and in some countries like in certain Scandinavian countries people opt to do this and elsewhere of course, but this isn't always a divorce situation. Sometimes people decide to have children on their own. You know, I think what's happening in that kind of situation is the person is initially providing the right brain and then that person is now providing the left brain. So let's say as a single woman with a child, her right brain is there on the get, but then in the second year and incidentally there may be father figures or family members or also can step into that, but essentially her left brain is there also.

50:36Remember, we both have right brain as the left brain, but again, that's a different kinds of skill in a left brain which would be, you know, the more autonomous situation. What are your thoughts about some of the modern exploration of compounds that can facilitate more right brain synchrony between therapist and patient? I've done a few episodes about MDMA assisted psychotherapy. These of course were just recently not approved by the FDA, so these are not legal. Nonetheless, there are interesting clinical studies showing that these are impathogens. One could imagine that they could be useful in the proper context to improve patient therapist, right brain synchrony and accelerate some of this process, but it seems like it would also require both the patient and the therapist taking the compound and that seems like it would have all sorts of ethical issues.

51:41Yeah, yeah. Remember, it's the relationship in the end that is the key there. I'm thinking, I'm also somewhat aware of that literature and you used the word empathogen, you know, which is not quite straight out empathic, but mimicking those kinds of situations there. My thought is that that might be more efficacious if it were specifically involving right brain dynamics with a person who knew how to work with those right brain. What you're getting there are very early forms of the behaviors which are subcortical. Remember, the attachment is also regulating the subcortical areas and those are the key ones and it's an end we are paying too much attention to the cortical area.

52:29We literally have to shift because the subcortical areas are the foundations of the human and everything is built on top of that. I'll come back to Inudro in a second if I don't get on that. In fact, I have some people who have worked with me have also been using right brain type psychotherapy in that with those patients and I think that that will be really interesting possibilities of seeing changes where you have the relationship, you know, in addition to that. And also some understanding about how the right brain works because one of the problems that you have where there is still some resistance, the idea that the right brain is just a simpler version of the complex left hemisphere, but that's not the case.

53:17This right brain is working completely differently. So I'm thinking that in that case, a better situation. Before I forget this, I want to just throw one of the pieces and I said that the right brain is in a growth spur from the last trimester. In the last five years, 10 years, there has been a real interest in Inudro development. And evidence to show that you're even seeing lateralization in the fetus and so and there's even evidence now, scientific evidence to show that the early memories in Inudro are stored in the right amygdala. So they're down there so to speak. So we're not paying more and more attention to what is happening there because at birth, literally what you have here is the deeper parts of the right brain are evolving in Inudro, the insular and the right, the amygdala, the center of amygdala.

54:19And that's setting up and you also have synchronization across the placenta whereby they are regulating each other's autonomic nervous systems. Can adrenaline pass across the placenta? I should know this. I know adrenaline doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, but the brain makes its own adrenaline. But do we know if adrenaline crosses the placental barrier? Most of the studies have been on cortisol. And high levels of cortisol, they're going to cross it. So if you have, let's say the amygdala, which is in a critical period of growth, the right amygdala, and the cortisol levels are very high, that's really going to not be an optimal situation for that amygdala to evolve because you're going to have a continual stress response there.

55:02That's got to have. And essentially what that means also that if the mother isn't a very stressed state during a neuter, some of that literally now is going to impact the lower areas of the brain. So as far as adrenaline goes, I'm not sure on that. I don't see why not. Although hormones certainly cross, you know, we're looking at not only changes in neuromodulate, especially in certainly the key here that we're trying to regulate are the neuromodulate. Excuse me, dopamine reward, noradrenaline adrenaline. It's those, which also early in life literally form plastic, or neuroplastic, so they will form circus.

55:47That's what we're attempting to regulate here, to downregulate very high levels of noradrenaline and upregulate dopamine, etc. I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function. I recently became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really want to find a more in -depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.

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57:40Again, that's functionhealth .com -slaesh -huberman to get early access to function. As I recall in your book, right brain psychotherapy, there was a description, beautiful description of these upstates, and then these more calming state coordination between mother and child. I actually read this book when I was living into Peng, I would walk on the road, I don't recommend this, there are no sidewalks in Peng, and I would read the physical copy, and I recall very distinctly thinking about this image of the baby and the mother, and the baby is a little bit hyper arous as upset, and so the mother would make sounds, in honestly words, like, these kinds of things, or humming, or bouncing lullabies, these sorts of things, and the prosody, and then the related release of things like serotonin, perhaps oxytocin, as well.

58:38We could talk more about those, but then also how critical it is for the mother to be able to regulate the baby's transition to upstates, like looking at the baby as it comes out of a nap and saying, good morning and really wide eyes, lots of gesturing, lots of gesticulating that is, bringing the voice level up, and the baby waking up in a steeper slope of arousal, and how important that was, and then that being slightly more related, and this makes perfect sense, to Norip and Efron, adrenaline at low, healthy levels, and perhaps dopamine as well. Is that the right way to think about this? And if so, is that what's going on when we form adult friendships, adult relationships?

59:22Are we oscillating back and forth between the ability to hang out and relax and soothe each other, and the ability to kind of get excited about something? Is this the basis of all relationships and relating? Yes, yes. The key here is emotional regulation again, and again it's implicit emotional regulation. One of the central tenets of my ideas here is that, first of all, there has been too much of an emphasis on the down regulation in negative states. Remember the original attachment theory, the secure base, the baby would come back in a stress state, she would downregulate the negative states.

1:00:04But really attachment is about the down regulation in negative states and the up regulation of positive states. Still at this point in time, the importance of positive states and the human experience are overlooked, positive emotions, joy, enthusiasm, excitement. Positive states literally are the key, and there are hormonal aspects to that, as you just point out, for example, dopamine, etc., etc. And this goes to therapy also. In therapy, it's not only just the down regulation and the sharing of the down regulation, but it's also sharing the up regulation of positive states because that's a critical piece of it also.

1:00:45But there still is that bias to look one way. Now in the right brain book, I'm also talking about two types of love, quiet love and excited love. This was the famous psychoanalyst, Donald Winnecott, who was a pediatrician, who was one of the great psychoanalysts of the 20th century. And he made the distinction between quiet love, which would again be the down regulation of the Roger Antlin. And excited, which is into a parasympathetic state, are you going from a hyper sympathetic state into a parasympathetic state, quiet love, and then excited love, which would be also passionate love, which is the higher rousal state atom, it's so to speak.

1:01:29And they are both important, and ultimately they both need to be integrated. And you may have a situation whereby one can do one, but ultimately they have to come together. Let me make this important point. In the end, we have negative emotions for adaptive reasons. It's there. Let's stay shame. Shame is meant to dose down very high levels of a rousal. And if one can't do that, very high levels of a rousal, let's say a narcissistic personality disorder, you need to be able to, so we need to have access to both positive and negative emotion. But the real key to a secure attachment is the ability to integrate both positive and negative emotions.

1:02:16So with a really good, you're securely attaching a mother. When that baby is in a down state, literally, she can literally ride down with that baby in synchronize. And when it's an upstate, she can really ride up with that state. In the case of narcissistic personality disorders, let's say, for example, I'm jumping here. We've got an insecure attachment. It can be an avoidant attachment or the other one depends on what kind. There are two different types of narcissistic personality disorders. You can have anxiously attached narcissistic characters. No, no, but you would have two different types of narcissistic personality disorders, a vulnerable attachment and a statistical attachment.

1:02:53You said a vulnerable attachment. Vulable attachment is again an anxious attachment. These people constantly need praise. Yeah, yes. Sound familiar, but also egotistical attachment. But my point out of that, essentially, here is the stresses in life are there. And that the negative stresses are there. But we can learn from those negative stresses also, et cetera. And ultimately, what we need to do is to be able to know how to integrate. If we can't integrate the positive and the negative, we'll end up with splitting. You know the term. Yeah, because I believe that's a primary feature of borderline personality disorder, which I think we should also touch on.

1:03:41Yeah. Yeah. So my understanding about splitting is that it's the, I love you. I hate you phenomenon brought on by not just an internal switch, which is sometimes seen in bipolar disorder, but rather somebody with borderline personality disorder will see something like and be very upset. Like suddenly, the fact that a glass is empty of a drink meant that they didn't think enough to refill a glass, something whereas a few minutes before it was perfectly fine, it was not an issue. There there needs to be a trigger. And then they split. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So essentially, you know, the splitting usually, the splitting goes out externally.

1:04:26That person is all bad. I am all good. So now you have that splitting, et cetera. You can't see anything of a goodness in that person at this point in time. Does it sometimes go the other way? That person's all good. I'm bad. It could also be that all good, but it also have internally splitting. You have an internal split between a good self and a bad self. And internally, there's an internal object relation that we all have as we internalize these external relationships so that there's a good self and a bad self literally and that they cannot be integrated, so to speak. And that that part of me, I hate that part of me versus I love that part of me, all in terms of borderline.

1:05:07Usually what you see at the very beginning is that there's an over idealization of the positive values of that therapist. And then there are some, there are some then stressors and misatunements and ruptures that are repair. And now all of a sudden, what was totally good now becomes totally bad. And so that could be if there was not a strong therapeutic alliance, the point in which the person will drop out. Are these people with borderline personality? I don't know if you still call it a disorder. Nowadays, that gets a little bit into the, let's call it borderline with borderline. Do they exhibit this same sort of splitting idealization and then the idea that somebody is terrible and they want nothing to do with them in the context of work relationships, friendships.

1:05:56Does it extend out into other domains of life? Or is it unique to certain types of relationships? I think it's the way of seeing the world. Remember, and the way of seeing the world essentially is very different from the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere. The right hemisphere sees the world through emotional relationships. And that, so that can become a trait that can be really a hard and fast trait. I'm going to be put in another way. In the case of narcissistic personality disorder, the baby is all good. The caregiver, primary caregiver is always thinking very positive about that, about that infant.

1:06:40But when that infant now, all of a sudden becomes depressed, the interactive regulation stops at that point in time. The caregiver doesn't want anything to do with so at that point in time, now everything is unconscious. If you and I are together and there is a misatune between us, what possibility, let's say, in a dismissive attachment is all of a sudden, I will disengage. We've got too close and at that point in time, maybe I'm acting out my early attachment dynamics because what the baby is doing is expecting what the mother will do next. And at that point in time, there's a misatouement like that.

1:07:34And so in the case of a dismissive personality, that person will emotionally disengage, okay? Become very abstract at that point in time. At that point in time, I can't feel you. I hear what you're saying. And so at all points in time, you have this situation of coming closer and moving apart, coming closer and moving apart. And this will be acted out in the therapeutic relationship also. And so that every time the person is the anxious person is stressed, they'll come and close it to you now. Now they're more demanding about what they need from you. Look at the tone of my voice. While the insecure avoidant now is not going to deactivate it.

1:08:20And at that point in time, my voice will now get flat. You can't even hear the effect of tone of my voice. So I'm telling you that we always pick up at the level of our own physiology. How emotionally close or distant that person is at this point in time, especially at points of stress, whether I'm coming in or I'm moving out. Let me go back to this. All of this is occurring at an implicit level, which is why you said something about reparenting, et cetera. Too much is on a conscious level there. If you really want to make these changes in a personality, they have to be changes in the right brain.

1:09:09And that's why all therapy now is looking into emotion. All therapy, no matter what the form of therapy, it's laying on top of the therapeutic relationship and emotion per se. I'm pausing some just taking all this in and thinking about what are the ways that people can start to tap into this right brain health or lack of health and ways to repair their right brain circuitry. So to speak, without a therapist or is that just simply impossible? No, it's not impossible. We all do grow and are incidentally our right brains do grow. But again, the key here, I'm suggesting the whole idea about interpersonal neurobiology was the editor of the North and the Syrian interpersonal, which is the two persons situation.

1:10:17There has been too much of an emphasis on order regulation and not enough emphasis on interactive regulation. The real key to changing a right brain is finding people you can be close with, finding people you can be open with, finding people you can be vulnerable with, that literally you can show your shortcomings and opening yourself up to those people as they open up to you. It's literally to form that right brain to right brain communication system with someone else. I think I just got it. I think if I'm not mistaken, what you're describing is interactive dynamics that create or elaborate on circuitry that exists in all of us, but that for some people might be atrophied because of the lack of proper emotional nourishment early in life.

1:11:16But that we can engage these circuits, these right brain circuits. But then when we're not around these people, there must be something about the right brain circuitry that provides a sort of a soothing function so that we must know at an implicit level that we can do this. We know how to attach in healthy ways to people. We have a close friend we can rely on. We have maybe friends plural. We maybe repair a relationship with a sibling. This kind of thing. So it's not that these circuits need to constantly be engaged every moment with the barista, but that we somehow at an unconscious level, it must be that we come to realize that this circuitry has re -elaborated or is elaborated in a way that we know, quote unquote, we can do it.

1:12:05You know, remember, part of the problem is being able to take in, to take these things in here. But the key to emotion, instead of limit, let me throw out another important term in terms of the therapy situation. I've said essentially therapy is about literally reworking emotion and the key to mental health and physical health is also a right brain emotional situation here. The key here is that there are heightened affective moments in a therapy session. I'm going to go therapy that I'm going to come back to your question. We've now formed the therapeutic alliance. The stronger the therapeutic alliance is between us, more empathy between us, so to speak, the more we can share, I'm now going to start to drop some of my defenses because the defenses are there to block affect, negative affect, and begin now to take a chance now to over myself up to somebody else's.

1:13:08But in a therapy session, somewhere around the middle of that session, the person comes in out of the world in a left -brain state, somewhere in the middle of the session, they start moving into affect. Now the person is starting to talk in a more affected level. Now talking about a memory or some sad situation or something that just happened in a relationship with a couple. Now even start hearing my voices now. The voice tone change and these moments which only may last, believe it or not, 50, 60 seconds are heightened affective moments. These are moments when all of a sudden we are both in the right and we are both synchronized and the affective now is out there, so to speak.

1:13:57And that's the possibility now to get this change in these high -negative moments. So to be in an interpersonal relationship with someone and to co -create with that person, a high -negative moment in both of us, which we are sharing at that point in time, by taking the risk to be open at that point in time also. These are the moments in life that you really go into your autobiographical memory. I remember my occasion with that person. I can bring back the whole context because remember the right brain acts with images, images. So I can bring back that image now and I can remember the closeness that I felt at that point in time, et cetera.

1:14:42These are put into the right brain. So we are always putting into our autobiographical memory these heightened affective moments. So to have those shared affective moments with other people, these are really whereby you're making change in the right. And these are much more important, I want to suggest, then, you know, intellectual. Now there have been certain fMRI, I'm now going to move into a little bit of a different place here. What I'm suggesting is that these right brain to right brain communications are always going on. But certain people literally can't read them as well as other people can.

1:15:26And they can't read the face of voice. And they can't synchronize well. Can I stop you and ask one question, which is, let's say that let's take this conversation, for instance, I'm listening to your words very carefully. If I make an effort to listen especially carefully to what somebody is saying, the content of their words, is there a competition between left and right brain such that I'm now not getting as much right brain listening? Yeah, okay. This to me feels like the surrender aspect, whereas I can, and I do this during these interviews slash discussions, where I'll sit back sometimes, and I'm still listening, but I widen my gaze, I don't look around, but I widen my gaze, and I'm trying to just feel something coming in.

1:16:14I'm not a therapist, obviously. No one would ever suspect that I was, but I only do it for a few seconds. And then I re -engage, and I used to think that it was like a relaxation of sorts, but inevitably I feel like it's a different way to, the conversation takes a different direction. Is that more or less what you're talking about? That's a colossal shift. I mean, certainly, and the corpus glow, you can shift from the left into the right about 100 milliseconds. So essentially, you have to be in one hemisphere of the other. So if I'm listening very carefully to exactly what you said, and I'm tracking everything you said, like we're in a courtroom situation, then my right brain is suppressed.

1:16:59Is that right? Good feet. Now, what's where I go here? Okay. The right hemisphere is dominant for attention. Okay? I mean, this baby and this mother, literally, she's focusing our attention on that baby's face -to -own voice, but there are two different types of attention, strong neuroscience to show this. The left brain operates by narrow attention, narrowly focused attention. The best example of narrowly focused attention is you are following my words one after the other. But there's another type of attention, which is used by the right brain, which is called wide -ranging attention, which comes right out of Freud, which you also call maybe you'll remember this evenly suspended attention.

1:17:48I haven't heard that, but that's beautiful. It's the same thing, which is much wider than that. And that form of attention is the form of attention that the right brain has, because the attention at that point in time is not only of what's coming from the outside, but also attention to what's happening in the inside, my own inside. The changes in my own physiology at that point in time also. So yes, there are these two different forms of attention. And essentially the only way someone who was just narrow all the time, let's take a personality who just lives in the left hemisphere. A hyperlinear person.

1:18:35Exactly. Hyperlogical, hyperrational. Cannot really see the big picture, but literally that kind of a situation. So essentially that kind of a person is always looking at the context that's being set up. Right now between you and I, there's also a context that's being set up. And that context also has to a kind of a feeling of safety and trust as we literally just go off wherever our thoughts are. With some idea that literally you'll be able to follow that and you'll come back with me at the same time. So the context, the emotional atmosphere between us changes when you go left into the right like that.

1:19:25Point here is that it used to be thought that the only way you could understand the brain was by looking more intrinsically into one brain. If you understood how one brain worked and everything was intrinsically, but then there's the interpersonal part of it. And so essentially what we're moving now from a one person, intrinsically psychology to a two person interpersonal psychology, you see what I mean by two person. I got the mother here, I got the baby there. I got the patient here, I got the therapist there. And between them literally going back and forth at all periods of time, right brain to right brain communications underneath the conversation.

1:20:06So neuroimaging, hyperscanning, neuroimaging, you're familiar with hyperscanning, another paradigm shifting thing that is occurring now in neuroimaging. For the first time we can now scan two people in IRS, EEG, whatever you want, while they are in the middle of a basic interpersonal interaction, a numberable interaction between the two of them. These studies have now been done. And what they did was that they found is that the two brains, especially when they're into emotional states and when they are looking at each other face to face and they're concentrating literally on how to empathically be with that person, et cetera, emotions, so to speak.

1:20:54They find that the right brain of one will synchronize with the right brain of the other. And the part of the right brain that synchronizes with the other is the right temporal parietal junction. A lot of evidence now on the right temporal parietal junction. I said right brain to right brain. So now the eyes are coming. I remember the eyes are, I mean direct eye connection really is the most powerful form of communication. I always remind people these are two little bits of brain outside your cranial vault. As weird as that might seem, they are two bits of brain, your retina is central nervous system and you're looking at that's about as close as you can get to looking at somebody's brain state as anything.

1:21:43The eyes are being controlled by the autonomic nervous system. So you have an autonomic nervous system, the autonomic nervous system synchrony here, so to speak. But essentially what's occurring at this point in time face voice gesture. The face is processed in the posterior parts of the right hemisphere that face processing, right hemisphere, face processing. The posterior parts of the right hemisphere, the sensory areas of the right hemisphere process the voice, the memory of the voice, the tone of the voice. That's different than the semantics of the voice. So this is prosody. This is this is what the Italians do so well.

1:22:24Right, right. And the and the and the posterior parts of the right hemisphere also will process gesture and tactile. Okay. All of that comes together is integrated together in the right temporal parietal junction. So when two people literally are empathically synchronizing with each other, when we are sharing the same emotional state, the third patient says to this point in time, my god, it's rage. I never realized it was anger. And at that point in time, the empathic therapist who is synchronizing, we are both literally now in that right temporal parietal junction. But the right temporal parietal junction is what sends the communications and receives the communications.

1:23:21Got me here. So essentially, that's where our linkages and we are now literally in a right brain to right brain communication. And what they found was during a real psychotherapy situation where the patient comes in and they're there because they have interpersonal relationships problems and emotional problems. And they're face to face and they're eye to eye and they're tracking each other's like that. You'll find that synchronization. So the synchronization between my right temporal parietal and your right temporal parietal is a right brain to right brain communication. That right brain to right brain communication is always occurring in that kind of a context.

1:24:08And therefore, the most important new change in psychoanalysis is that the unconscious just is more than just happening at dreams. It's happening at all points because the unconscious we now know is a relational unconscious. It communicates with another relation unconscious right brain to right brain. And this has really changed so much now and our understanding about what psychotherapy is about also. And suddenly, I want to point out the major change mechanism in psychotherapy now is not inside. It's not cognitive insight. It's more the ability to have an emotionally latent conversation with another human being and to make emotional connections with another human being, which is why the therapeutic relationship really is the factor of the change.

1:25:05And that's very different than the old days was your unconscious is here. The analyst is there. I'm now going to interpret what you're doing as you are sinking down into the right and now going, but I'm going to stay up left and interpret it. That's why there was a real limitation to that. And that's why psychoanalysis really changed now also to a face to face contact, not just the couch also. Fascinating. And makes total sense based on the newer imaging tools, revealing synchrony, et cetera. I have two questions that can be asked in parallel. Music and dogs. Why music and dogs? Well, some of what you're describing reminds me of the state shift that occurs when I hear particular pieces of music for which I'm not paying attention to the lyrics or in some cases the lyrics matter.

1:26:05I'm listening, but they don't make any sense, like if they were read out as a paragraph, it would make any sense. But it feels like there's some fundamental truth there. So this is I could state specific musical preferences, but it's highly individual. For some people, it's classical music for other people. It's music that contains lyrics, but there's this feeling like, yes, like there's a truth there and I feel that truth, even though the content of the words, let's take it, couldn't help myself, like a Bob Dylan song, for instance, he's certainly could be considered a poet, right? And if you read the lyrics just as a paragraph, you'd be like, this is nonsense.

1:26:42But the way that it's sung, the meaning behind it, the tambour in the voice, the prostitute, et cetera. And presumably the emotion that he was feeling at the time when the music was recorded communicates with us and we enter a synchronous state. And then in parallel to this, I mentioned dogs where sure they have a for they have a left brain and a right brain, but I think with animals generally, if they're domestic animals and we have a very close relationship to them, we can really feel a resonance with them and presumably them with us. And for anyone that's experienced it, you know, some people might be chuckling now, but it's nothing short of profound, right?

1:27:19The extent to which we really feel like they see us and we see them and there's a bond. Clearly not the same magnitude as a parent child bond, but nonetheless. So music and dogs, do you think it's tapping in to this same right temporal parietal structure? Well, I think it's, first of all, the right temporal parietal junction is the posterior and the right orbital front of the cortex. So the whole right brain there, so to speak. Okay, so we're going, we're basically going from anterior to posterior just, there's structures the whole way back. Yeah, the orbital frontal is the regulation part of it.

1:27:56The temporal parietal junction is the communication part of it. So the whole key is the communication of emotion and the regulation of emotion. Where is the surrender switch? The surrender is the colossal switch out of the left into the right. So not so much paying attention to the content of the words, the logic behind them, the logical flaws that might exist, the analytic part, but rather how the words sound, how the words feel literally. Yes. And clearly one of the, first of all, there has been a lot of neuroscience done on music and incidentally, most of that is right brain showing right brain activation in music.

1:28:35The key here, even more than that, it's, it's, it's, particular music to me. It has a particular meeting to me, the subjectivity and a lot shows that music is essentially a mechanism of affect regulation. But I want to suggest to you that pets are also a mechanism of affect regulation. Dogs everywhere smile. Absolutely. You know, and but maybe by the same things I want to suggest, I think that the communication between dogs and I've had four dogs myself is that literally it's tactile. It's the touch of that animal. It's the prosody of the voice because literally that dog understands the prosody of the voice.

1:29:19And also, you know, at some extent, I think they, they can read our, our faces. But more than that, there's one other sense, which I haven't brought up, which is part of human relationship. And this is overlooked in human relationship. But in real intimate contacts between human beings, the smell is really a key there. You know, I think about sexual arousal. So dogs are really very strong on our smell, et cetera. But if attachment is reunion after a separation, you come home, there's that dog sitting there, literally, and immediately, you're down regulating the day. You have now taken off the whole left hemisphere and our whole stress is of all of that.

1:30:04And you're now shifting left into right. And we use the mechanisms that are available to do that. And music is one of the ways to do that. So the, in some sense, music is an order regulation, although music can be live music. And then it's more than that. So that's the case. Or playing music with others. This is something I'm incapable of because I have no musical ability. But playing music with others, you can see that when we talk about the chemistry of a band, it's so incredible to witness that. And then to feel it in mass with thousands, maybe, of other people. Yeah. There have been studies to show that during a performance, there is a synchrony.

1:30:46There are synchronized states between the performer and the audience. And it's certainly, they're all, you can have thousands of people literally in that same synchronized state of that born and time here. You mentioned earlier, Steve and Porgis work. And we know that brain and body are connected in both directions. And I should know this, but I don't know if the right brain has preferential communication with the parasympathetic or sympathetic or other aspects of, well, Vegas is parasympathetic. But I think it's probably both. I think the more we discover about about the Vegas, it's likely to be mixed sympathetic parasympathetic, but I'll catch some heat for that.

1:31:27But that's okay. But is the, you know, bodily sensing is a real thing. Like there are ways that are diaphragm and are and are core relaxed when we're happy. I mean, all of this is obvious to anyone. But I'm just curious how right brain links up with bodily state. Right brain is more connected into the body than the left brain. Incidentally, I'm going to, do you know the name Ian McGilchrist? Yes. I know the name and many people have commented on our YouTube channel that I need to talk to Ian. That's all that I have gotten that far, but I've been busy. Get him. Get him. Great. Ian, we'll send you an invite.

1:32:09Yeah. I mean, there has been ongoing dialogue between us for some time. But Ian talks about that, the right brain literally is much more connected into the body. And incidentally, it's also more, it's more dominant for will. Unconscious will is more important than conscious will, which you kind of, at the very beginning, we were talking about the left versus the right. Yeah. So I'm curious as to, you know, how people can start to sense these right brain left brain shifts. We talked about how paying a little less attention to the content of words and a little bit more to how a conversation is feeling independent of the word content might be part of it.

1:32:57We hear a lot of these days about, you know, how body posture matters. You know, like if people are closed up with their arms crossed, I don't know, but sometimes I'm just a little chilly, so I'll cross my arms. And sometimes I'll cross my arms and lean in and I know that I'm in a much more a two -year state. So I don't put too much weight on that, but maybe I should put more weight on that. And what are your thoughts? Yeah. There's a classical work on, by the analyst by the name of manual hammer. And he was talking about how to reach the affect. And what he suggested is that there are certain moments in the session when literally my body in order to pick up the communications of the patient, I lean back.

1:33:38I'm not leaning forward into, I lean back and let the atmosphere literally come over me so to speak. I love this. I'm just, forgive me for interrupting, but I love this because people, especially on social media, they take a piece of information like, you know, if you're leaned back, you're disengaged, you're leaned forward, you're engaged, but you could also just turn it right around and say, if you're leaned forward, you're impending. And then the person doesn't have space. And so it becomes, frankly, it becomes a bunch of BS. But notice here, what I'm talking about, what the therapist is attempting to do is to make an emotional connection and empathic connection.

1:34:10And in order to make an empathic connection, you're leaning back, you're leaning back. And literally as you lean back, all of a sudden, you're able to pick up things and hear things that you didn't see before, so to speak. And frequently what happens when you're in an emotional connection like that, images will come to your mind, images, which really represent the emotional experience that the other is having. And at that point in time, also, what you'll find is that just as you're picking up that person's image, he's picking up your person's image. And what Hammer says is that we have, what we have here is something that's alike an affective wireless between the two because it's going back and forth between the two of us, just like a right brain to right brain communication, affected by.

1:35:02Freud said, the human unconscious acts like a receptor, and it picks up the communications of the unconscious of another human being. Freud said, literally human beings can pick up the unconscious without going, without it going through the conscious mind. So again, in that kind of a context, you know, that all that all makes makes sense. The other thing I want to say about all of these behaviors that are going on now when there is an emotional communication. The key is spontaneous behaviors, spontaneous, not thought out behaviors, spontaneous behaviors. When there's spontaneous behaviors, there's more trust in them being in the first place.

1:35:50But there's not a mind that is attempting to present anything. And when you have two people revealing their spontaneous behaviors to each other, even if they're not sure how they're going to be affected, that also is a matter of synchrony. In order for there to be synchrony, there has to be spontaneous, two -way communications, turn -taking communications. And incidentally, as we talk about this conversation, what is set up in the attachment between the mother and the infant, the infant makes a cry, the mother responds, is that they are now taking turns. There's turn -taking behavior. And in a good relationship, what you find is more or less smooth turn -taking behaviors.

1:36:36And incidentally, you and I who have never met before are not doing too badly. In these spontaneous turn -taking behaviors between us. I appreciate you saying that. I feel the same way. Text messaging has become a dominant mode of communication these days. I've hosted a few guests expert in emotions in the brain, Lisa Feldman Barrett, for instance, and others. And others have talked about how the emogification of emotions, just like a smiley face or a crying face or a goodness or a mind -blown. These things are convenient as is shorthand text, lack of punctuation, etc. But today's conversation also highlights the extent to which text messaging is much devoid of most everything that you're talking about.

1:37:29A green bubble or a blue bubble, seeing or not seeing a red or not net red depending on how you set your settings. The latency, the turn -taking, sometimes people layer in multiple conversations and you're going back and forth about a couple of different things. And then your food order comes. I mean, sure, the human brain can handle this. But this seems either not good, neutral, that is, or bad for building and reinforcing communication. It actually concerns me. But of course, I'm now 49, so I can say things like now that I'm 49, I can say things like that. But it concerns me because I think that you can imagine the young brain and older brain, essentially not being good at interpersonal dynamics because of text messaging.

1:38:24I agree. I agree. First of all, let me mention that one of Ian's ideas is that essentially the left hemisphere is becoming more and more dominant today not only in this country. And he sees that as really as a huge problem because the title of his book is The Master and The Semisary and The Amisary, which is the left brain betrays The Master. So he sees that one of the problems we're dealing with right now is that there's the left hemisphere is there and that these right hemisphere is even metaphors or, you know, a problematic. So I have a rule. I don't argue over text. I don't like to argue over text.

1:39:12I don't like to argue period, but I don't, you know, pick up the phone. I'm of the generation where we called one another.

1:39:21I find text to be completely devoid of what I'm really seeking in terms of connection. And I think that there's an entire, I know there's an entire generation of people that grew up communicating mainly through short message. Jonathan Hate and the author of The Anxious Generation has been encouraging young kids to put away their phones and get out and interact more and encouraging parents to let their kids be more what they call free range kids and do this kind of thing, arguing that there's far fewer dangers in the physical world than there are in the online world for young brains. He makes a convincing argument.

1:39:58For those of us that are seeking to have better connection, maybe even do some healing of the right brain circuitry that you've talked about today, do you think that there's a hierarchy of effectiveness such that, you know, like text would be perhaps at the bottom, voice memo, maybe next level up. I'm thinking here a phone call you know, there was a time when we wrote handwritten letters and those felt very meaningful. I kept handwritten letters from people that I cared about and that cared about me. The handwritten letters prove that it doesn't have to be a real time exchange. But there's something about handwriting, a type written letter by today's standards would also be a significant thing.

1:40:45But, you know, there really seems to be something special about a letter, a face -to -face conversation. Right. In terms of literally the point of the letter and the attempt of the letter literally was to make a connection. I can remember in my childhood going away to camp and we would write letters back and forth. And the words that were being used there were literally about making a connection and feeling you in, which also meant that I had to reflect about myself on what was happening with me and how I felt about that and how I was sharing all of that, you know, with another person. And that has really gone into the background and things have become much more impersonal.

1:41:31But I want to point out that for a certain type of personality, texting fits perfectly. These are people that walk around with left brains that are hypertrophied. People, you know, living living in the left, living in the left, that's right. This is an only before. I just want to point out there are other ways literally of feeding the right brain of what it needs and one of the other ways also is going out into the world, is traveling, is being in nature, sharing those kinds of things also. Those are also in addition to the, you know, to the in -person situations here. But, yeah, we're seeing changes here.

1:42:17We're seeing let me throw out. I made a little list of the areas which are now being studied, which are showing that clearly this is right brain dominance in these activities. Yeah, please share. Stop me at any point. Essentially, the argument that I'm making in this new on human nature is that the highest levels of human nature are in the right brain. So essentially intuition. Now remember, intuition is there for all kinds of professions. That one of the things that a fireman gains over time is literally how to read a fire. So intuition, purely right brain, and so on. And intuition literally is drawing on body sensations also, et cetera.

1:43:12Image tree, creativity, a lot of evidence showing creativity, the ability to processing something novel and something new. Metaphores.

1:43:29Imagination, studies, humor, music, poetry, art, morality, compassion, spirituality, and the best for last love. That's a spectacular list, making the right brain circuitry at least among the most exciting circuits, certainly important circuits. I threw a nade for the next book. I love right brain psychotherapy. Love, love, love it. I want to hardcover copy. I've owned it for a couple years now. I highly recommend it. We'll put links to your books in the show now. Get to develop the unconscious mind. Okay, we'll do. What are some activities that allow us to, quote unquote, drop into our right brain circuitry a bit more?

1:44:44One that immediately left to mind, as you mentioned, nature and interacting with nature and we were talking about music is walking. And earlier we talked about you educated us on, rather, this notion of wide range attention. This evenly suspended attention that is associated with the right brain, this kind of widening of gaze as opposed to narrow gaze and narrow attention that is associated with left brain circuitry. When we're out in nature and when we're ambulating, when we're walking, provided we're not looking at our phone, one hopes, or looking for something specific like a bird that we've spotted, we tend to be in panoramic vision.

1:45:32I'm a vision scientist, so I can't help myself, you know, what we call magna -seller vision. He's like, sure. Big pixels. I'm aware. Yeah, taking it all in. It's more spherical than kind of a cone of attention. I would imagine that might be more right brain associated. What are some things that you, if you, suggest to your patients like, pay, you know, until our next session, do you encourage them to journal, free associate journal, to listen to music, to take walks, or do you restrict the activation of this right brain circuitry to the session and then let it just show up as it were. Yeah. Yeah.

1:46:16So you let them sort of just default to what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. To two points here. First of all, on therapy, I think there's been too much of an emphasis on technique and therapy. And really what the right brain research is showing is that it's the right brain process that's the key here more than the technique. And so that being the case due to my own training of psychotherapy has shown to be more effective in making long term changes and even changes after the treatment is over than other forms of therapy like CBT. So I think there's been too much on that. On the matter of other experiences, the right brain is also dominant for processing novel information.

1:47:22Anytime something new comes up, the right picks it up first and you get a burst of noradrenaline out of that also. So the pursuit of continuing to have a curious mind and an open mind, I think is part of that and seeking new experiences in different parts of the world. If there's an economic piece of that also, but with new challenges, bring up new challenges that we have and to essentially if possible, feed curiosity, curiosity. Einstein even said something essentially that along those lines there. So new experiences with new people, new challenges, new places to see, new, you know, a travel, I think is, you know, one of those and it turned out to be one of the great fortunate gifts that came from all of this.

1:48:26You know, I was a therapist only for about 45 years and I came into this late. I wrote this book late and literally it's led me into new relationships and new friends who starts making friends at 45 and 50 years old, but again, novelties and sharing that, you know, I think is also another way of doing that. Plus, you said this, I'll repeat it, exercise. Exercise is a key here. I happen to be interested in energy and in mitochondria and there's a scientist Navio at San Diego who was written on this and he's talking about the healing process and part of the healing process literally is exercise.

1:49:17That's fundamental to healing of whatever physical and mental and also restorative sleep. So taking care of our body, one of the things that we learn early in our experiences, mostly taught through the bodies literally how to take care of our bodies and as you're well aware of, you don't see that in certain pathologies and you also have sort of, and I'm talking about more than just self -destructive like cutting the body. Ultimately, the ability to be able to look inward and to be able to reflect back upon the self and to be able to see even what we want to see don't want to see. Now, I want to just make a quick reference to defences because defences can be adaptive and maladaptive and they're important and they're there.

1:50:23For example, we have defenses against overwhelming affect, dissociation is defense against overwhelming affect, but we also have defense like repression, which is part of all human beings and repression can be normal and adaptive, it can be maladaptive and it's maladaptive literally when the repression is very strong essentially. What you have there is that the left hemisphere is just shutting out anything coming over from the right. That's what repression is. The left hemisphere is just shutting that all out. So part of this is becoming more aware of those defenses that we have also and I want to make this point also.

1:51:01There are certain parts of ourselves which we cannot see. We can only see them when we're getting feedback from somebody who knows this and can see those things in us and even if at the time they're uncomfortable, but we need that feedback from somebody we trust to be able to see which is why this ability literally to completely change one's psychology is highly problematic because remember what you're attempting to do is to change the right brain which is why intimate relationships, close relationships with whom we can share things is really a key there also. Everybody has blind spots and the way out of that again is trusting enough to take in negative feedback at times also.

1:52:00My own feeling is that when something hits me, let's say a disappointment hits me and one of the things I learned early about my own emotion because in order to study emotion you have to study your own emotion etc. That for me literally when something comes I just let it come and move wherever it's going to go and feel it just at all of its intensity and strength and even after sharing it literally letting it penetrate down so to speak and ultimately at some point it'll come back into another shape in the form but our emotions are adapted and again I want to point out one of the major fallacies is that negative emotions are bad and positive emotions are good, positive emotions are good, manic emotions etc.

1:52:56Negative emotions are bad, loss, you know we are wired for all of these emotions because they have adaptive value and we need to be able to be familiar with all of those different types of emotions you know that come our way in our lives. I have a friend he's a songwriter and he told me that he has this process whereby he writes music every day but he starts his day by painting or drawing and I think he sold some paintings and drawings but that's not his main vocation but he told me that he draws in paints as a way to sort of grease the gears to songwriting and then I learned that Joni Mitchell did this too or something similar and I can't help but wonder whether or not they've unconsciously tapped into a mode of bringing right brain circuitry up in terms of its activity.

1:53:56Neither of them are known as painters or artists but of course musical artists and quite accomplished ones at that. Is that sort of a tool or technique makes sense? Yeah it does essentially it's creativity you know which again is the ability to see something novel in a new way to look at the same thing but through new eyes so I think those are ways of literally artists know literally how to get a surrender out of the left and get into the writing you're seeing these mechanisms go surrender but let me share something else more autobiographical about what you're saying. When I decided to I knew that I was going to write something you know at a certain point in time and so for 10 years I went into a period of self -study and literally I went to a library Cal State library near me and I just went through the stacks you remember what it was like to go through the stacks and I started to move into psychology and to neurology and to chemistry but then I found myself doing something else I went back to the piano I took piano as you know as a teenager it led nowhere but as an adult I went back to the piano we have a piano in the house it came from my in -laws because I wanted to know something in my fingers I didn't want to know something in my logic I knew that the way that I usually would understand things would be rationally and logically but I wanted to be able to play and be able to play again purely that it was in my fingers and I also wanted to be able to visualize so I got to a point now where I started to be able to now to be able to see a cell and I could visualize my decondrial moving now up into the dendrites at the cell memory so that visualization capacity as well as the musical capacity was my intuitive way of starting now more and more to get me to lean into the right to be able to learn how to be in the right amazing I love this and I'll refrain from sharing my you know personal use of such sort of I guess we call them avenues into the right but I want to make clear I understand you're in the stacks of books in the library it feels and sounds like a like a cognitive endeavor a left brain endeavor but then it just came to you I want to play the piano or through the research uh that you were doing this a 10 year self research amazing by the way I'm like so struck by that then did it just come to you in a flash like I want to play the piano again and it was it because playing the piano contrasted so much with looking through the stacks or that where they were alive no it just it just those for me that was exploration it was exploration got it was all new information and I found that I could master more than what the field that I was trained in let me give you one other experience is that is a lot of evidence to show the aha experience is right brain also so there are times when literally insights will come quickly and suddenly and it'll seem to come out of nowhere and all of a sudden the muse is there so that was an aha experience and when I thought about it it just made all kinds of sense I mean there was a purpose to it because again I wanted I needed to get past doing that let me tell you something else that I decided to do very early on as I was setting off into this 10 year period I decided never to memorize anything tell me more it's a lot of effort that gets nowhere literally what I want to do as I want to understand it in the way that I could understand it so there's a lot of wasted time and memorization and that being the case as you can imagine I have a rather enormous memory I know where things are I not where they are and how to get them I know what's important and I know how to put into place where I can get I know where that article is and incidentally when I'm working initially originally I would write everything down and the writing had an effect of putting that more into my memory even now when I'm studying I'll take papers I'll Xerox them and I'll read them at my desk I will not read and study right off the computer in other words I was learning my own technique of learning so important I often get asked you know what's your note taking process how do you prepare a solo episode I do these long solos that you know I have only a few pages of notes but I could describe it but the process is so specific to the way that I learn across the whatever six eight ten weeks that it takes me to prepare for one of those sometimes more that it wouldn't really translate like it doesn't matter yeah but there's but there's a process of introspection there about literally how do I learn and you know and how can I how can I literally absorb the information so that it goes in deep the left hemisphere essentially is a surface hemisphere the right hemisphere is the one of depth so to speak and what goes into the right for example if you have an experience an emotional experience that's really important that goes deep into your autobiographical memory that's much deeper than your attempting to memorize something you know at that point at any point in time given the extreme importance of this right brain circuitry and of this autonomic synchrony between mother and typically mother primary caretaker that is and infant what are some things that are known from the literature as critically important about that stage in terms of you know amount of time spent with the child you know oftentimes parents are working there are nannies are any number of different things they're a lot of different structures nowadays for families and balancing work and family does there anything known about how to I used the word optimize but maximize the health of the relationship yeah I don't think that this culture compared to other cultures really provides for that kind of time I think that people are stressed because of that and now I'm going to talk about a paternal leave and paternal leave in other rich countries the paternal leave is three months and maternal leave is six months or more and scan the navia so these other countries have figured out this time of life is critical that if you really want to affect a personality and help shape that personality to be a moral person or you know to have values etc the time literally that to put in is the earliest years that's when it's there so to speak and without that kind of leave policy in this country most people go back to work at six weeks six weeks is at the beginning of the critical period of the right brain the autonomic nervous system is in a critical period at six to eight weeks the amygdala is coming into a critical period the basal lateral amygdala the insula and the singular are in a critical period at that point in time this is before the child has form an attachment and as or a separation so I see this as literally and as I'm well aware of there's now talking about this more and more in fact the recent debate there was discussion of this also about this this problem the London School of Economics had a study about what is the best predictor the best childhood predictor of adult satisfaction in life and the best predictor was emotion and the second was the child's conduct and the third and last was the child's IQ we have things upside down here we are focusing too much on executive functions that come online at the third year and again when I'm suggesting to you is that the whole foundations of our personality are starting in utero through the second and the third year and then you know with the father et cetera that's where we literally should be putting the money and the money should be there so that it provides the time every other culture has figured this out the unicef took a poll in 2021 of 36 countries rich countries we came and last in emotional well being childhood well being shame it is a shame what's wonderful however is that you're highlighting these issues so many people are hearing about this and you know I encourage anyone everyone listening to really take in the ordering of importance of what Dr.

2:03:18Schor just shared that IQ third on the list emotion regulation number one conduct conduct yeah so the the idea that we need to train our kids up as little memorizing computers is clearly the wrong idea clearly there's important information that needs to be committed to memory to be a functional human being but that we're missing not just critical knowledge transfer but critical emotional transfer yeah and for that reason and for so many other reasons I really want to thank you for coming in today and having this conversation it's unlike any conversation I've had on this podcast it for several reasons not the least of which is that you have this incredible knowledge of the neurobiology which for me is a delight and I'm sure for the listeners too but also the clinical experience which is so rich and it's clear you've also done your own work in exploring these ideas and and you've been here for and participated in the evolution of this whole right brain left brain thing you know the advent of neuroimaging and how that's really shed new light and I just love love love the way that you you braid all this together in terms of actionable things with patient and therapist but also just in terms of one's understanding of self I'm certain people are going to take this knowledge into their lives and into the world and it's been really enriching for me and I'm certain it's going to be immensely enriching for them so thank you for the work you do thank you for taking the time to come here today and I'm excited about your new book so keep us informed as to when that comes out maybe we'll have you back on for another discussion if you're willing and just you know just thank you so much for entering this this left brain right brain dance and dynamic I've been thoroughly enjoying absolutely pleasure for me too Andrew absolute pleasure thank you thank you thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr.

2:05:19Alan Shore to learn more about his work and to find the links to his books please see the links in the show note captions if you're learning from end or enjoying this podcast please subscribe to our YouTube channel that's a terrific zero cost way to support us another terrific zero cost way to support us is to follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple and on both Spotify and Apple you can leave us up to a five star review please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode that's the best way to support this podcast if you have questions for me or comments about the podcasts or guess or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Hubertman Lab podcast please put those in the comments on YouTube I do read all the comments for those of you that haven't heard I have a new book coming out it's my very first book it's entitled Protocols and Operating Manual for the Human Body this is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation and of course I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included the book is now available by pre -sale at protocol's book dot com there you can find links to various vendors you can pick the one that you like best again the book is called Protocols and Operating Manual for the Human Body if you're not already following me on social media I am Hubertman Lab on all social media platforms so that's Instagram X formerly known as Twitter LinkedIn Facebook and threads and on all those platforms I discuss science and science based tools some of which overlap with the content of the Hubertman Lab podcast but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Hubertman Lab podcast again it's Hubertman Lab on all social media platforms and if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter the neural network newsletter is a zero -cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as brief one to three page PDFs that cover protocols for things like deliberate heat exposure deliberate cold exposure there's a protocol for managing your dopamine there's a protocol for optimizing your sleep for neuroplasticity and learning and much more to sign up for the newsletter simply go to HubertmanLab .com there you provide your email I'd like to emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody and as I mentioned before the newsletter is completely zero cost thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr.

2:07:36Alan Shore and last but certainly not least thank you for your interest in science