How to Achieve Inner Peace & Healing | Dr. Richard Schwartz

29:17Okay. I hate things that people have said or done, not certainly mostly to other people, not to me, but yet being, like, really being angry at someone in a pervasive way, not just in the moment, is something that's very difficult for me. But when I'm hearing what we heard from this part, it's afraid if it doesn't do this, apart the judges, the other probably, you know, not so nice way, would be released. Does that sound right? Yeah. So there is that part in there. It's just that you've been able to kind of exile it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm comfortable with the idea that you take the appropriate amount of distance could be zero or could be near infinite.

30:07but that I should take the appropriate amount of distance from things and people so that I can be in the most loving stance Toward them for that. Yeah, I'm not trying to sound technical here with all the parallel constructions But I've thought this through a lot like there's some people that I

30:26There's no limit to the extent to which I want to interact with them But you know we have other things to do would I spend all our time together? And then there are other people that I love them, but I know that I have to keep a certain amount of distance in order to continue to love them. This is the same thing. So in that moment, it's almost like, but it's coming up without my conscious thing. It's not like saying, listen, that's the kind of person I can talk to, like, once a month or something. And I'll just add, you know, in professional settings, not now, But in the distant past when I was in a very hierarchical structure of a I'm still an academia still teach but not Running research anymore Formally, you know, I had a couple senior colleagues that I really loved and respected but that they They would say or do things that I thought were frankly unethical to other people and to me that I felt them as kind of abrasive So I might like the physical manifestation of this is I I would make it a point to walk past their office door quickly so that they didn't say, hey, because I don't want to interact.

31:33But I'm not familiar with cutting people out of my life. I'm just not familiar with doing that. I don't believe in it as a value. Let's pause for a second. I'll give you a little overview where we are. So we started with this guy who came up with your friend and is trying to protect that relationship because if you continue to be misunderstood in terms of your motives, it would have an impact. So that's how it goes. Yeah. The only thing is a family member. Okay. Yeah. That not that matters, but close family member. Got it. Yeah. And in exploring this part, asking what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do that.

32:17So there's this other part that might come out that would be very judgmental of that family member and really might have a bad influence on your relationship with that person. Is that sound right? That's correct. Okay, so we have these two well, we have you who's noticing all this which we should talk more about and then we have these two parts that are sort of polarized but but one, the judge metal one, you really don't like. And so you really go to lengths to keep it bay. And you kind of admire this guy. And but you also know that he can get in the way at times too. Is all that sound right? Yeah, that's right.

33:04Because I'm describing a recent situation where the presence of this like titanium teddy bear. Sorry. I don't know why that's amusing to me to say that. The shape of a teddy bear, I'm not seeing a teddy bear in there, but roughly that size and shape. It creates a protection, but a pressure internally. Yeah. Super uncomfortable. It's actually taking me a couple days to dissipate this. Yeah.

33:31And I do think somewhat counter to the way I'm describing it. It doesn't prevent me from saying something. It actually, if it's too much, it's almost like that's when words start coming out and they're not kind. So it's not a real protector in the sense, like it's preventing me from a course of action I don't want to take. It's more like it's kind of extruding all this stuff and obviously I'm responsible for my words and actions. I know that. But it does feel like it creates kind of a... It takes over. Yeah, that's the way to put it. So let's let's go through that again. So

34:16I'm so grateful that you're willing to be this vulnerable and expose these parts so this guy Actually, they're both probably what we call firefighters Very reactive. There's maybe some other very vulnerable part that is involved here. We haven't heard about But if I were to be continued to work together, I would work to get permission to go to the judgmental guy too. And what you would find is he's a protector too. He's not just a bunch of negative thoughts about people. And as I was hearing earlier, you spent a lot of time in your life trying to be fair to people and to not judge them and to see them.

35:08What they do is just their behavior is not who they are. Which is great. But in the process of doing that sometimes, we wind up having to push away the parts that want our judge and want to hate and so on. And what I find is if we can go there and get to know them, they're just protectors too and they're young and they are able to unload the hate they might carry, the judgment, they'll transform. So this is a model of transformation in that sense. And there are no bad parts. You go to everybody in there regardless of how you think, how bad they are, and you get curious about them and you learn how they're trying to protect.

36:02And then we help them out of their protective roles and help them trust. There's a you who you talked about with Martha who can run things, but they don't have to do it because most of them are young. And get them to trust this you to handle your family member rather than they have to take over or try to take over in the way they did. Does that make any sense? Yeah, it makes total sense. You know what you said at the beginning, a permission to go to the judgmental part. I was just, you know, my mind flits when I hear that flits too.

36:44You know, two possibilities, one's a novel possibility, one's a familiar possibility. The familiar possibility is, if I were to really feel the disappointment that I'm feeling when this pattern in the in the other person shows up again because it at least seems to I'm very familiar with the pattern then it would fundamentally like change the way that I feel about them that's right like I'm trying to hold on to the goodness in that right but of course I I want to be very clear not just for anyone listening but for myself too that clearly that the protecting role of this titanium teddy bear has created something where what the times when things have broken through from my side they're not kind and or they're spoken in a way that just is not constructive right.

37:45So yeah. And then the second possibility is that I hadn't considered this possibility. But the second possibility is that where I to let myself feel that disappointment that maybe the relationship could persist. Like I've been looking at those things as mutually exclusive. Yeah. And as I say all this, I also realize that, well, the honest disclaimer is like, I don't want to give the impression that I don't judge people. I'm human and I certainly do. I'm just saying that when there's a relationship that I wish to maintain, I'll go to great lengths to push aside knowledge of of my own experience.

38:33Yeah. And or just judgment. I've made this I've engaged in this pattern in ways that were ended up being extremely destructive to me by completely like putting the blinders on to things that were right in front of me. That's what I'm talking about. Consciously. That's what I'm talking about. Because I adored the person so much in other dimensions like that, you know, and, you know, it's not a lack of a better word, a holistic way to approach things. But I also will say that in contrast to the types of relationships, the relationships where the titanium tannerberries not required feel to me. So by comparison, but also in the absolute scale feel to me.

39:16Like the best possible relationships one could have. They're like pinch me type of relationships, like friendships, some of my relationships to family, like my coworkers and there are others too. I certainly had romantic relationships like that. Relationships, my relationship to my dog, as trivial as people might think that seems. The contrast of that, like where there's no need for this protector part, it's like the best thing because it feels completely safe and uninhibited. I never have to worry that I'm gonna be taken over from the inside, nor do I ever worry that I'm gonna like really screw up.

39:56Yeah. And I hope that if I do screw up, they'll tell me. But like it's the complete absence of fear. So let me check out and just see how this has been to discuss and focus and so on. What's it been like to do this process? Mm. It's a lot in the sense that I don't like feeling that titanium thing. Teddy bear. It's very, it's been very informative. So it's balanced by that. And maybe that's why I went into a little riff about the pleasant relationships and how how how how how sized positive they are for me. They're they're like a they're like a salve and an elixir for me that maybe I gave myself a little like wash over with that because it's pretty uncomfortable.

40:50Yeah, but it's been it's really informative and it also tells me that the internal family systems work that I do so and else was an attempt at this but so very different which makes sense because this is your art and science Yeah, so so I'm grateful. Yeah, so yeah, it feels good What I was saying earlier is if we were to pursue it we could get to the point where the teddy bear guy Could unload the feelings he carries that makes it so uncomfortable and he would transform. How would we go about doing that? Just to focus on him again, we would explore more of what he's protecting. Either we would go to the guy he's trying to keep at bay that would ruin a relationship, or often these parts are protecting something much vulnerable from your past.

41:41Some young part that stuck somewhere in the past that has a big issue about being misunderstood in terms of motives or something? Yeah, it's not that I need clarity on this right now, but it's more that it protects the possibility of a relationship at all. Yeah, I get that. I think the fear is like, if I were to look through my lens of truth at what's happened or is happening in the moment, if I were a quote unquote better boundary person, it'd be done yesterday. Yeah. But so it's sort of like a desire to live out a fantasy. Got it. I mean, if I'm honest. So that would be the part that we would go to that it protects.

42:25That has this fantasy of what a relationship should be or could be. We might be stuck somewhere in the past and we would learn we would witness, you know, you talk with Martha about compassion and witness. We would witness where you stuck and what was happening back then and then I would have you go in and get them out of that time period and we have them unload the desire for that fantasy that keeps you getting hurt and then I would have you have the teddy bear sea it doesn't have to protect him anymore and then we would help the teddy bear unload the feelings he carries and then And he could relax and they would all start to trust you, which we should talk about a little bit now.

43:14Who was you? Who was separate from these others? And for the record, I never owned a teddy bear as a kid. I had a stuffed frog. I had a teddy bear. Well, I'm not embarrassed. I had a stuffed frog that I love. I'm afraid of the frog. So I don't know where the teddy bear thing came up, but the shape was so very clear. But let me elaborate on what I was just saying because when you Separated from him and you found him here and I asked you how you felt towards him And you had an attitude about him at first remember We got that to relax and got curious about him Then you started to access more of what I call yourself with a cap and less So it comes through curiosity comes well start often starts with curiosity And just to backtrack a little bit.

44:07So when I would have these clients in the early days starting to work with these parts, like the critic and so on. And once I got hit to the fact they weren't what they seemed and they deserved to be listened to rather than fought with. So I would help the parts that hated them step out and clients could do that pretty readily. And then I was like, now how do you feel toward this critic? It's spontaneously people would say, I'm just curious about why it calls me names all day. Or even would say, I feel sorry for it that it has to do this. I'm going to help it. And when they were in that state, and I would ask, what part of you is that?

44:53That's great. Let's keep that around. They'd say, that's not a part like these others. That's me. That's my essence. That's my self. So I came to call that the self with a capitalist. 40 years later, thousands of people doing this all over the world turns out that that self is in everybody just beneath the surface of these parts so that when they open space, you can access it quickly and has all these great qualities. What I call the eight seas. So curious but also calm, confident, compassionate, courageous, clear, creative, and connected. And that person knows how to heal these parts. So once I get somebody in a lot of what called self, I'll just say, okay, what do you want to say to this part?

45:45And how does how does it react? And now what do you want to do with the part? I can kind of get out of the way. And one of the hallmarks of IFS as opposed to a lot of other therapies is that it's not so much about me becoming that good attachment figure to these hurting parts of you, these inner children, you become that. You become the good attachment figure yourself or the good interparent or the good internal leader for these parts.

46:18And they get into it with your family member and you just remind the part, no, I can handle this. Just let me stay. And now when that happens with my wife, sometimes not on a good day, I can stay in the seaworth qualities and have a totally different conversation with her than if that protector took over. I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is an all -in -one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens. I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast. The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take AG1 is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.

47:02What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health. AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome. Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.

47:34In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1 .com slash Huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2 with your order of AG1. Again, go to drinkag1 .com slash Huberman to claim this special offer. Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront. I've been using Wealthfront for my savings in my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it. At the start of every year, I set new goals. And one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.

48:09Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account, where I'm able to earn 4 % annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well. With wealthfront, you can earn 4 % APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it. With wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays. The 4 % APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn, and you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through wealthfronts partner banks.

48:41Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts. It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest. There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long -term wealth. Earn 4 % APY on your cash today. If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to Wealthfront .com slash Huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with the $500 deposit into your first cash account. That's wealthfront .com slash Huberman to get started now.

49:16This has been a pay testimonial of wealthfront. Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank. The APY is subject to change. For more information, see the episode description. I'm struck by a couple of things that I think people will be if I may wise to think about. One is in In the classic psychodynamic or CBT model of therapy, it's clear that the client or patient, sometimes it's called patient therapist relationship is one where it takes on certain components that exist in the outside world with other people. And it's always slightly bothered me, slash concern me that that's the structure. And as you said in IFS, internal family systems, you become your own therapist, if you will.

50:12And for lack of a better way to put it, I like that because there's so much discussion nowadays about parenting yourself and this kind of thing and learning to mother yourself and father yourself. And I actually think there's great value in that. I mean, I learned by living alone, you know, how to cook for myself and clean for myself. These are mapping to stereotypes here, but also to protect myself and to, you know, organize myself and be very, very disciplined. And actually running a laboratory was a great teaching there because you're basically a single academic parent to all these people. So you have to, you quickly realize where you lack maternal instincts and where you may lack or overemphasize or have hypertrophy.

50:57Maternal instincts, so that was a good forum to see my weaknesses and hopefully some strength too. So I like this idea that one can play those roles for oneself. How is IFS typically done if somebody doesn't have access to a therapist who's expert in it, or is that really the only proper gateway into it? No, so because I'm sitting here with the master, the founder, and I'm very grateful, by the way, for the work we just did. So thank you. It feels good. I was a privilege. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, likewise. But most people won't have direct one -on -one access to you. So it's very experiential.

51:47I imagine in books and courses people can learn how to do this. And by the way, this was not preconceived as a pitch for books and courses. But I'm wondering like, can somebody do this on their own the very first time? Yeah, that's what I wanted to know. Yeah, yeah. So for a long time, I resisted trying to take this directly to the public because I learned quite delicate. And if you start going to these, you know, the part, we talked about that's vulnerable inside, that has this view of relationships, this kind of idealized view of relationships of yours, would be what I call an exile, that if we were to go to it, and we won't today, because it requires a lot of vulnerability.

52:40But if we were to, a lot of extreme protectors might come out and then people start to get scared. So it took a long time to figure out how we might bring it to the public in a safer way. And so we just put out a workbook for people and it doesn't involve necessarily going to those places. but there's a huge amount you can do just by working the way we started to with these protectors and getting to know them and know that they're not you. They're just a part trying to, and no it's not anything negative. That judgmental part, you've got such an attitude about, or fear of, if you were just again getting curious about it and getting to know it a bit, you'd find out that it's a very valuable part that has a lot of discernment, like you said.

53:33But you know, and wanted, wants desperately to keep you from getting in these relationships where you get hurt. And get so judgmental because you don't listen to it. You follow what I'm saying? I do. I do. In fact, something pops my, maybe I could just ask you about it. My mind's right on what you're saying, but you know, something occurred to me as you said it, which is, if I were to, for instance, really feel the feeling of like that's really screwed up or like that's not like actually feel the disappointment or judgment that this Titanium teddy bear is trying to protect against um I Realize it leads to a lot of role confusion and identity confusion.

54:20That's right and I'll just be very blunt This probably not the best thing to do on a podcast. I'm gonna do it anyway, which is you know that this is how I feel about modern politics I see things on the left that make sense to me and things that are to me just absolutely ludicrous inappropriate and offensive and like just badly wrong. I see things on the right that make a ton of sense to me and also things that are inappropriate offensive and wrong and as a consequence I'm trying to see the best the goodness in both sides and just kind of create this kind of Swiss cheese model of the world. I'm talking about politics because it's just simpler to do and I people at least know what the groups were talking about.

55:04But then it leads me in a place of no affiliation. And I'm then between one of two stances, one of just kind of standing there being like, yeah, well there's no real position in the middle that is an official position in the middle. But it also makes me just want to put up the middle finger to both. I'm really thinking and say I'm a double hater, but of course I'm an adult and a citizen who cares about people in the country and so I feel like To be an adult I can't opt out, but there's like I feel unaffiliated I feel like there's no option for me and in this maps pretty well to I think the identity and role confusion that I feel when I Place my my again Understanding the truth is is a complicated thing, but my judgment on things and people is like well then what is my role as a son?

55:56What is my role as a partner? What is my role if this thing is true? And so it's a way I'm realizing of protecting the simplicity of a role. That's right. And I dig up in a home where like the roles were like you're son you do certain things like you know you do you know and so but I also have a rebellious side confusion is something that I imagine a lot of people are familiar with. And when one, and I also believe that when you just really say, well, they did something bad, therefore all bad, therefore I'm part of the opposite team. That to me is an unlived life. It's like, it's a, but I see a lot of people do it.

56:43And actually sometimes I'm envious of people that have that ability because they seem, they're seem so uncomflicted. Right. Right. So it's a tough thing to be a thinking -fueling person at the level of nuance. Yeah. It kind of sucks sometimes. Yeah. I'd rather do that than be a double -hater or just cleanly opt -in. Yeah. Does that make sense? Totally makes sense. And what I'm hearing is that when you're looking at a person or a political party or an issue in the world, you'll hear from these conflicted parts. Each have perspective just like our country now. Here's from these conflicted parts.

57:27But you don't have a lot of access to what I'm calling self in those contexts. Because one of the sewers is clarity. So, again, I was listening to you in Martha. You were talking about how there are times where you just have this sense in your body and what's right or what's true. That's what I'm calling self. Self has that clarity and self -season justice and self. Some of those seawords are purge, confidence and clarity. So there's an impulse also to act to correct imbalance, to correct injustice too. So self isn't a kind of passive witness as it is in a lot of spiritual traditions in IFS. It's an active inner leader, it's an active external leader.

58:19And too often our actions are driven by these protective parts and that's true in our politics now too. So one of my goals is to try to bring more self -leadership to the world to these conflicts. But to do that, people have to unburden. They have to release these extreme beliefs and emotions they got from their traumas in the past. We have a concept we call legacy burdens. So many people have inherited these extreme beliefs and emotions that came down through their ancestors and drive their their parts drive their extremes and many conflicts in the world are driven by these legacy burdens and we've gotten good at helping people unload these these things.

59:13We've seen this in the Middle East recently. Totally. We're doing a lot of work in the Middle East. So we have training programs there we have and one of my visions is to have large -scale legacy unburdenings where large groups of people come together and we help them unload the Holocaust legacy burdens on the one side and the 1941 legacy burdens on the Palestinian side and have more self -accessible to each side. And when we do couples therapy, we do other kinds of negotiated conflict. If people's parts start getting into it, we'll just say, time out. You sort of did this on your own with your family remember.

59:58Just say, timeout, when both of you to go inside, find the parts that have been doing the speaking. Don't come back until you can speak for them, but not from them. And come back in these seaworth qualities in that state of self. If we can hold people in that, it's really easy to get out of the conflict. If their protectors are going one added all the time, conflicts never change. Do you think that people who have the reflex or the ability to kind of somatocize a bit? Like I obviously, I don't think in myself as somebody who's like psychosomatic, I don't have stomach aches and headaches and stuff unless I've caught a virus, you know?

1:00:47But I can feel where certain things are in my body, pretty quickly, you can always have. Do you think that IFS lends itself better to people who feel things somatically versus people that are really cognitive and in their head, because I have that component too, I can actually feel the switch. Like I do it, I'll go into like a narrative and then I start to see the structure up here. And - Yeah, that happens several times in the movie were working together. Like I would have you stay with something and then the narrator part would kick you in. And then I would try to refocus you. But you know, I lived in Boston for 10 years.

1:01:32So I worked with lots of cognitive people who didn't know their bodies, who had, you know, just were in that rat race to try and get tenure and it's all been there. Yes, me too. Yeah. 10 years nice, but one should tend to their emotional cells. Well, they're pursuing it. But just to answer your question, they can do it, but we first have to start with that thinking part and get it on board and get it to step out and just to stay out long enough that they can feel their bodies. So, yeah, you know, it lends itself to anybody, but with people like that, it takes a well for that thinking part to trust that it's safe to let them into their bodies.

1:02:19So we were to just step back for a moment and do sort of a top contour summary of the process.

1:02:29Someone brings forward a memory, a recent or distant memory of something that made them feel not good. And you try and localize some sensation in the body. Got a sense of its location. I'll tell you why. Yeah. Because if they find it in their body, and they direct the question there and they wait for the answer to come from there, they're less likely to be in their head. So it's sort of short circuits that thinking part in so many people come to therapy. and that thinking part thinks it's supposed to do the therapy. It's CBT or whatever, even a lot of the more, not experiential, but a lot of the more psychodynamic therapies, the thinking part is really trying to explain why they feel stuff.

1:03:19So this is getting them out of that and getting them to actually listen inside into what they think is their body, but it's really these parts that live down there that they haven't out access to because the thinking part is running things so much. Got it. And then one places some attention from the stance of curiosity to like, what's there? What's it, what's it trying to say? Exactly. And then you start to reveal that underlying layers of what's it protecting? What are those things that are protective trying to say? Yeah, it's not even you're trying to reveal. It's just that you're asking these questions.

1:03:58And the answers start coming. I see. Oh, I love this because I'm a big believer in seeding the unconscious mind and then letting things surface either in sleep or in meditative states or

1:04:12Has internal family systems been combined with some of the therapies that are now getting tested still in clinical trial stage around psychedelics. Yeah, in fact But two days ago, we just completed a IFS and ketamine retreat. Oh, wow. So we had, and we're doing it more and more like I said, I'm trying to bring this more out of the psychotherapy world. So we invited 32 leaders to come, of various kinds, and had three days where they do ketamine and then do IF. The nice thing about psychedelics is it puts those manager parts to sleep somehow. a lot of the time. Yeah, I've been open about the fact and I always have to provide the disclaimer.

1:05:00I don't just say this to protect me. I say this to protect listeners that I do think young people should avoid psychedelics. The brain is already in a psychedelic state. That's right. It's the amount of plasticity and this is really tremendous. And this is coming from somebody who regrets it, but I did psychedelics recreation when he was a kid. Me too. And I regret it. I return to them later in a clinical setting and derived a lot of benefit, I think, from them namely, high dose psilocybin and MDMA. But both of those are still very much illegal. You can get into a lot of trouble for taking them and or certainly for selling them.

1:05:43So that's the cautionary note there. And the clinical trials are really impressive in my opinion, spectacularly impressive, especially for MDMA and for the treatment of PTSD. But the FDA this last year did not approve MDMA as a treatment for PTSD. I think going forward in the new administration, it's likely that it will get approved. But who knows? There's who knows? So anyway, that's a bunch of pseudo -legalies jargon. But it's sincere. If I were an 18 or 19 year old person or 30 year old person and listening to a conversation about psychedelics and how they can be helpful. I would want to also know that there are instances where people take them and they don't have the appropriate guidance in and through it and out of it and at least serious problems.

1:06:32So there's a real thing that we're talking about. That's why these Academy and Clinics where they just hand on the drugs and get medicine and just leave them on their own or scary to me. I'm proud to say that IFS has been adopted it is one of the primary models for psychedelics now. Great. Because it's a really nice fit. And as I was saying earlier, what I see happening often, not always, is these manager parts go offline. And that releases a lot of self. So you start to just feel those seaworth qualities emerging. And that's a big invitation to all these exiled parts to come and get attention.

1:07:18And so, as people come out of the ketamine experience, I can work with them for 15 minutes and do something that would take maybe five sessions because they can get access to parts that they couldn't get or it would take a long time to convince their protectors to let us go to. And we can unburden those exiles and then bring back their protectors. And so I love it. You know, and catamines the legal one. So that's why we do it. And the other nice thing, and I don't know, as a scientist how much you would go with this, but

1:07:57catamine, again, because it opens the door with these protectors, you can also taste what I call the big self. You taste this what they call non -dual state that can be quite blissful and some people got and then as you come back you have this sense of I'm much more than this little body and this little ego that there is something much bigger. And that's why they're using it with end of life and why it did in Silasarvan has such a big impact on depression because it sort of lifts you out of this little box your protectors have you had to know that there's something much more. Interesting. I've never tried ketamine a few years ago.

1:08:47I and I've talked about this publicly as well. I started developing a pretty deep relationship to spirituality and God and mostly mostly through the path of not of giving up control. I mean, there's a great breaking news folks. You can't control everything, you know, and you can control certain things, but most things know and The way you describe ketamine is very interesting because it as a dissociative anesthetic It works in such a fundamentally different way than say MDMA, which is and empathogen, which makes people feel so much more. I mean, I sort of have joke that the aside from the safety legality stuff, that the concern I have about MDMA is that if one is not in the I -mask, if you don't have somebody guiding you through it and taking some notes, you know, if you listen to a piece of jazz or classical music, your favorite rock and roll album, or you're there with your dog or cat or plants.

1:09:56I mean, you can spend the entire four hours bonding with the plant. You're not going to run off and get married to a plant. You're not going to try and fornicate with a plant, but it's a very precious but very labial situation. Because it's such a strong empathogen that whatever you direct your attention to, internal or external is going to hypertrophy. So it has to be really careful. Totally agree. You know, and given that the neurotoxicity issues seem worked out in that if it's actually MDMA and isn't other things, by the way, the big study that showed neurotoxicity of MDMA in non -human primates, turned out they were injecting methamphetamine.

1:10:45Yeah, that paper was retracted. It was published in Science. We'll provide a link to the paper and the retraction. that the retraction was not as publicized. Wow. Methylene dioxide, methamphetamine, MDMA, has not been shown to be neurotoxic provided. That's what people are taking. Wow. And not taking some combination of other things. Yeah, it's a real tragedy the way that retractions don't get nearly the kind of popular press coverage that initial studies do. Regardless of whether or not the initial study was positive or negative. Yeah. In any case, I do believe there are other routes to calming down the forebrain in the context of doing this kind of work that, just like your thoughts on.

1:11:27When I first wake up in the morning, I'm in kind of a liminal state, but the thing that I don't want to think about comes to my brain. I can't avoid it. It's just like the protectors are not available. They're still asleep. So that seems valuable. I've tried recently to keep my eyes closed. Sometimes I'll get up and use the bathroom, but keep my eyes closed. Stay in that still state and explore the contours of that thing.

1:11:56Provided it's done safely and not anywhere near water. Cyclic hyperventilation, breath work, done for a few minutes or cycles. You know, you know, we think can change the brain activity so the forebrain kind of comes off of line a bit. So all these things just put managers to sleep. Put managers to sleep. Like when you go to sleep, your managers go to sleep. And then you have these weird dreams. And that's because your pangs I always have access to your mind now. And they're giving, they're trying to give you signals about what they want. The other thing I'll say about psychedelics and the breathing too, is that as your, your managers go to sleep, and your eggsile start coming in, it can seem really terrifying because these parts are stuck in horrible places often with a lot of terror.

1:12:52And so what's called bad trips is them trying to get attention. So they'll come in and they'll totally take over and you look like you're having a panic attack. But what we've learned and you know this happened a few times last week is instead of thinking of it as a panic attack or a bad trip to the welcome it. Here's a part that needs a lot of attention. It's taken over entirely. But if I were to say, okay, Andrew, I see you're really scared. But how do you feel toward this really scared part that's here now? And I could get you to say, well, I feel sorry for it. Then I would have you start to get to know it, who worked with it and comforted it rather than have a panic attack.

1:13:38You would access calm and those seawards and then it becomes a hugely useful healing of something that's in you that's stuck in a terrified place. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year I became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASAs or forever chemicals.

1:14:23Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers, is Keide or physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, and I've been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcystine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

1:14:57And I should say, by taking a second function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by function simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try function, you can go to functionhealth .com slash huberman.

1:15:28Function currently has a wait list of over 250 ,000 people, but they're offering early access to huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth .com slash huberman to get early access to function. What is so striking to me is that, you know, Amartha taught me this practice of, you know, when we think about the things that create shame for ourselves, if we're able to go up and really look at those and own them not from the perspective of, I'm proud of them, but own them as in us and not of us, that it's incredibly freeing. And indeed it is so free, right? It's like if there were like a secret to life, It would at least include that.

1:16:19Let me rip up a bit of a prison here. Just as an example, like I do gun workshops where I have people who work with their racism. You're speaking of something very shameful. And a lot of people say, I'm not a racist. I don't have any racism. But if I really convinced them to look inside and check, they'll find there's a little part in there that does spout racist things when they meet somebody of a different skin color as these white supremacy beliefs. And they're really ashamed of it. So if I were to have you focus on that racist voice in there, you would have to get a lot of the parts that are shamed of it to step out.

1:17:04And then I would have you get curious about it rather than ashamed of it and ask it about where it picked up these beliefs and it could tell you and then I would ask do you like having to carry this racist stuff? Usually I say no If it's ready, it's unloaded. We can just unload it. So one of the key things to know is these parts are not the burdens that carry They're all good. The little guy who's got the racist rant is a part that got stuck with his beliefs. But when he releases those beliefs, he transforms into being a good. And the mistake, our culture makes the mistake that most psychotherapies make is to assume that he is that racist rant and to try to exile him.

1:18:00But it's a different way of understanding even very seemingly evil people that they're dominated by these protectors and they're so afraid of their exiles and they relate inside in the same way they relate outside. So if they hate parts themselves, they'll hate people who resemble those parts of them. They'll try to dominate those people. Do you follow what I'm saying? Yeah, and I'd like to really go into this a bit because we hear all the time that when we're upset about something it's something in ourselves that we're really upset about. And for me that isn't always true, but that's sometimes true.

1:18:42Yeah. So if I'm upset about the intolerance of good ideas from people in opposite groups of each other's good ideas. this logic would say that I'm really just disapproving of that aspect of myself that is like black and white judgmental. Which we already established got me and again, you're the therapist. So is this always true? Not always. Okay. But a lot of the time. So if you can come to have compassion for that judgmental part of you and not be embattled with it and actually see it as desperately trying to help you being more discerning and help it on burden and get out of this role that it's in.

1:19:35Because in the role that it's in, it can be destructive. We're not trying to minimize that or say, you know what I say, all parts are, there are no bad parts. There are no bad parts, but they can get into very destructive roles and they can carry these burdens from the past that can drive them to be harmful. But part of my work is to help the all that change. And so if you were to start a new relationship with that judgmental part of you, then you would see past the judgmental parts of other people and you could see the exiles that drive those protectors and you would have compassion for them.

1:20:17It wouldn't mean you wouldn't stop them or stand up to them. But you would do it with compassion rather than from these hateful protectors. I think it's important that people hear that, namely, that if we get in less vulnerable, not more vulnerable, both to quote -unquote attack. But that also, I guess put simply that in understanding of ourselves and compassion for ourselves, one develops understanding and compassion for others, but that doesn't mean that you're opening yourself up for harm. That's right. And the opposite is actually true. The opposite is actually true, because these protectors will generate often what they fear.

1:21:09So by being so protective, they'll create protectors in the other that will attack. Whereas if they could stay in self, self can be very protective with those seaworth qualities. Very forceful, sometimes fierce. This idea of, I'm definitely following that we will sometimes create in others, you know, what we fear because it allows us to engage in this unhealthy dynamic. It seems so counterintuitive, right? Maybe we take a kind of classic set of examples that I think are pretty common. A person who's codependent with somebody who's a substance -subuse addict or somebody who's very timid and always wants to pacify and somebody who's very dominant.

1:22:04When I zoom out from the second case, it actually, not it makes me chuckle how crazy that it is because if you think about it, a person who is very dominant doesn't need somebody very timid in order to feel dominant, right? They could probably feel whatever powered is they need to feel with somebody who is less timid and maybe the relationship would be healthier. But that's not how people tend to other select. Yeah, it's kind of interesting like so it raises a perhaps a bigger question Why do people select people that are fundamentally? Bad for them Okay, so I Did a book called you're the one you've been waiting for and in it I talked about this the whole issue and so for a lot of people You get hurt by your parent and And there are parts that want to protect you from your parent, but there are other parts who are desperate who took on the worthlessness from being rejected by your parent at a desperate free redemption.

1:23:10Do you follow this? And so as you leave and you're looking for a partner, that part from a subconscious place can influence your decision to find somebody who resembles that parent in their effort to be redeemed again. Is this anything like the sort of repetition compulsion? Yeah, exactly. That we tend to repeat a pattern over and over again as an attempt to resolve, not just a manifestation of like dysfunction. That's a version of what I'm talking about. And so you find somebody who does resemble that person, that parent, and unfortunately they do resemble that parent. And so they'll hurt you in the same way.

1:23:54And then your protectors go into one of four modes. They'll say, I've got to change that person back into who they're supposed to be. So they'll try to change the person's behavior. or they'll say, I've got to change myself, so they'll be who they're supposed to be. Or they'll say, oh, this wasn't the Redeemer after all. And they'll go looking for the real Redeemer who's still out there. And it's always inside. And yeah, that's what I try to do is to help them see that that Redeemer is inside of them itself. And if they, if we can go to that exile who's got this thing for this parent -like person and help it connect to self and help it unburden that whole repetition compulsion disappears because now they can take care of themselves.

1:24:49They trust self to do it. They don't need that from some other person like that. And so when we're working with couples and you always find some version of that in couples, if we can get each of them to become their own good attachment figure, a good caretaker inside, that frees up the partner because when this exile is leading a relationship, your partner feels a lot of sort of demands or feels a lot like your partner has to take care of that young part of you and can't, can't fully do it. So there's always this sense of a burden, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting how romantic relationships are where these patterns get repeated.

1:25:39And at the same time, I numerous examples of my life of healthy relationships. Is that usually the case because people have done the work before or because they had a minimum of trauma in their upbringing? Both. Yeah. Yeah, what percentage of kids, adults as well? Do you think had a minimum of trauma are just because of the way they're wired and the way the stuff is organized within them that they naturally attach to a good partner and are pretty healthy, is it like 25%, 30 % does it? I really can't say because my sample is very skewed. I'm working with psychotherapy patients who always have a lot of trauma.

1:26:25So I really can't say. I mean, I'm very biased. Well, half of the marriages in this country and in divorce, and presumably of the ones that don't, I'm guessing somewhere between a half and a quarter of those, people are really unhappy. It sounds so pessimistic, but if you just look at the numbers and I'm an optimist, I already acknowledge that I don't like to think about bad stuff and I just, you know, so yeah, I'm guessing that a lot of people repeat these patterns, but it seemed as if maybe 20, 30 years ago because these ideas weren't discussed really. So many fewer people were in any kind of analysis or personal exploration work that as a society we defaulted to just sort of role execution.

1:27:28Your father and husband say you do certain things and you don't do certain things. You're a wife and a mother so you do certain things and you don't do so and so on. And I think nowadays there's a lot of discussion about, you know, is there resurgence of organized religion because we've drifted so far from these kind of core structures? I mean, love your thoughts on that. And also what you think doing this kind of internal work on oneself without requiring any input or participation from another, what the value of that is, it sounds like there's tremendous value to just doing this work for oneself, maybe with someone trained in IFS.

1:28:09Yeah, I mean, there's like I was saying, there's a lot you can do with working with your protectors and helping them get to know self. Like we didn't do it, but had I had you asked that, Teddy, that, that, that, Teddy, you know, Teddy bear, how old it thought you were, and just really waited for the answer. There are most people who will get a single digit. It still thinks you're very young, and it still thinks it has to protect you the way it did when you were very young. And just even updating it creates a huge amount of relief with these protectors. So there's a lot that can be done just by working with protectors, introducing them to self, helping them see they don't have to keep doing us all the time.

1:28:58Some protectors, it's very hard for them to totally drop their weapons until what they protect has been healed. So that's where the therapist comes in. So, you know, there are coaches doing this work, for example. They'll work with some executive and they'll do great and then they'll get to an exile. And then they'll have the person see I have a therapist for a couple sessions to heal the eggs are and then come back. Because you know coaches aren't trained as therapists and right. So yeah, there's still need for therapists. But yeah, but you can do a lot on your own. I'm struck by how experiential it is as opposed to just conceptual.

1:29:50I mean, obviously, the concepts are important, but I think internal family systems who was described for me previously kind of mapped out for me on paper. I got a sense of it actually with some objects placed out. And it was helpful, but it, I think just having done a little bit of it today, the only by actually feeling this sensations in the body associated with it does actually really make sense to to me. I mean, it made sense cognitively, but that's so very different. Yeah, it's like me telling people, you know, get out and get some line your eyes in the morning or sit your circadian rhythm.

1:30:26Like, you can know that you can know that under like mechanisms, the neurons, the pathways, the hormones, et cetera, but some level until you experience what that's like for two or three days in a row. It's, you might as well be reading about, I don't know, titanium teddy bears, you know, yeah. Exactly. And that's where I'm so grateful to you that you were willing to try it. And because it's true, as I describe it to people, they don't really get it until they actually feel it, experience it. And it is very different from many other therapies, which are much more cognitively based, because we're trying to bypass that and actually get to this raw stuff in here.

1:31:08In order to be deliberately repetitive, I wonder if it would be useful to the listeners to would it be possible to just pose the questions to them as an exercise that they could do in real time? Totally. Yeah. Thank you so much. I think that would be tremendously valuable. So I'm going to have to erase myself here for once. I'm going to be quiet for a little while folks and you are the the lucky patient that gets to talk to Dr. Schwartz here and he's going to pose a series of questions and we'll allow some moments of break or silence for you to be able to tap into the answers to these in real time.

1:31:50That way you don't have to create a parallel construction of what we did earlier. Yeah, and let me lead by saying, please don't do this if you have fear about doing it. But if you're interested in some inner exploration, then I'll lead you through some of the steps. So as you've been listening to our conversation, I'm speaking to listeners, you may be thinking about some of your own parts, particularly your own protectors. And if you can't think of any, most people have a kind of critic inside or part that makes them work too hard or a part that takes care of too many people. So I'm going to invite you to pick a protective part to try to get to know for a few minutes.

1:32:48and just notice that inner voice or that emotion, that thought pattern, that sensation, just focus on it exclusively for a second. And as you do that, notice where it seems to be located in your body or around your body. Just take a second with that. And some people don't find a location, some people think still sense it, but it's not clear where it seems to be located. But if you do find it, enter around your body, just focus on it there.

1:33:41And as you focus on it, notice how you feel toward it. And by that, I mean, do you dislike it and want to get rid of it? Are you afraid of it? Do you resent how it dominates? Do you depend on it? So you have a relationship with this part of you.

1:34:20And if you feel anything except the current of openness or curiosity or willingness to get to know it. Then that's coming from other parts that have been trying to deal with it. We're just going to ask those other parts of you to relax back for just a few minutes. So you can get to know it. We're not going to have it take over more.

1:34:56We're just going let you open your mind to it. And if they're not, then we're not going to pursue this. And you can just get to know their fear about letting you get to know this target part.

1:35:15But if you do get to that point of just being curious about it without an agenda, then ask what it wants you to know about itself. Just a kind of nice open -ended question. And don't think of the answer. Just wait and see what comes from that place in your body. And don't judge what comes. Just whatever comes, we'll go with it. What does it want you to know about itself? And what's it afraid would happen if it didn't do this inside of you?

1:36:05If you got an answer to that question about the fear, then it was telling you something about how it's been trying to protect you. And if that's true, then extend some appreciation to it for at least trying to keep you safe, even if it backfires or it doesn't work. Let it know you appreciate that it's trying to protect you and see how it reacts to your appreciation.

1:36:44And then ask if you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it didn't need to protect you so much. What might it like to do instead inside of you if it was released from this role? And I'll repeat that. If you could go to what it protects and heal or change that. So it was liberated from this protected role. What might it like to do and stare inside of you?

1:37:29And then ask at this kind of odd question, how old does this part think you are? Not how old is it, but how old does it think you are? And again, don't think, just wait and see what comes.

1:37:59And if it got your age wrong, then go ahead and update it and see how it reacts.

1:38:24And the last question for this part is, what does it need from you going forward? What does it need from you? And again, just wait for the answer.

1:38:54And when the time feels right, thank your parts for whatever they let you do in this. And then begin to shift your focus back outside and maybe take some deep breaths as you do that.

1:39:13Thank you for that. That was awesome. I also was able to get some I think good work done in that. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. Totally different, totally different location, totally different set of dynamics.

1:39:31even though what you just took us through is very experiential, what if any value do you think there is to writing down sort of key takeaways? Yeah. So it's great to do the work, you know, session or, you know, the sexist size. But ideally it's the beginning of a new relationship with this part. So, and that takes work on your own. So, what I advise people is as you get that ball rolling in that good direction, it'll reverse if you don't stay with it for a while. So, every day, like you were saying, you wake up rather than what I'm going to do today or what problems do I have in my life, how's that part of me doing that I've been starting to work with?

1:40:20What does it need for me today? What doesn't want me to know is it's still feeling better? Do I still have compassion for it? So or appreciation for it. So This like I said earlier this kind of becomes a life practice So I do that every morning Not a round, not a round. Not a well. You're very familiar with these parts and to clarify for people when Dr. Schwartz is saying parts, he's saying these personalities within us, not necessarily the body part where it manifests, but maybe that provides a physical anchor to look to. Exactly right. So yeah, I'll check in, not with all my parts, because I've met many, many, but the ones I've been working with just to see how they're doing.

1:41:14And as I go through the day, I'll notice, am I in those seaward qualities? Is my heart open? Is my mind curious? Do I have a big agenda? Anything, any departures from that is a protector usually. And I'll just have a little journal board meeting. It's that I get, you feel like, like in preparing to come and be on this podcast, I had to work with the parts of a nervous and you know I have my father was a big scientist big, uh, endocrinology researcher. Oh cool. Yeah. Great field. Great field. My brother is being shot in endocrinology researcher. So I have some, some issues. Did I, I hope I didn't reinforce the negative ones?

1:42:04Well, I was, that was my parts were is coming in. And so I worked on it and said, okay, just, but just, I get it, I get you scared. I could feel them in my hands when I was taking a drink earlier. Interesting. But I just kept, okay, I get that. I get you scared, but just trust me. Just step back, just relax. And then I feel the shift, a literal shift. And then I feel those seawards flooding. And then we have a much different kind of conversation. So it's a live practice in that sense. Thanks for sharing that. I didn't detect any anxiety whatsoever. Neither pre -recording nor during this discussion.

1:42:51If you don't mind, could you describe or maybe even just list off some of the other labels of parts that people might encounter? If they do this kind of work, so you describe them as protectors that manage and then the exiles, which are the parts of us that the protectors and managers are protecting. Okay, those are two different things, right? Yes, so the big distinction is between parts that by dent of simply being hurt or terrified or made to feel shamed and worthless. and usually those are our most sensitive parts. They're the young inner children. They get stuck with those burdens of worthlessness, terror, and emotional pain.

1:43:41And then we don't want anything to do with them because they can overwhelm us. And so we lock them away. And everybody tells us to do that. So those are the exiles. And when you have a lot of exiles, you have to, these other parts are forced to become protectors. So there are two classes of protectors. One of the managers we've been talking about and the other are the firefighters. So you know we mentioned a number of manager common roles but there's just lots and lots of them. Firefighter common Common roles include addictions, disassociating the kind of judgmental, rageful parts. I could go on, but anything that is reactive, impulsive, and is designed to protect those vulnerable parts, but in a impulsive way, as opposed to the managers who are all about control and pleasing.

1:44:57these firefighters are all about, if I don't get you away from these feelings right now, you're going to die. A lot of them believe that. And some of them, it's true. So there's often a kind of hierarchy of firefighter activities. The first one doesn't work. You go to the next one. If that doesn't work, the top of the hierarchy for most people is suicide. If things get painful enough, there's this exit strategy. It's actually very comforting to lots of people. And here we come along and get really scared of these suicidal parts. So this is again, it's one of the hallmarks of the difference, IFS.

1:45:45If you were to say you've got a suicidal part, let's go get to know it. How would have you you find it and all those steps. And I would have, what are you afraid would happen if you didn't kill Andrew? What do you think the answer to that is most of the time? That it would just feel like too much to bear. Yeah. I gave you this couldn't take it anymore. Exactly. But of course there's a crazy statement because it's not like my brain would explode. But some, these parts believe it. Yeah. They're not grounded in logic. So my, well, my response to that part is, if we could unload the pain that you're so afraid would overwhelm, would you have to kill them?

1:46:26No. And would you let us do that? Well, fortunately, I don't feel suicidal. Right. But the answer would be yes. Okay. So because we can prove to you that we can unload that pain. And if we could do that, what would you like to do instead of being the suicidal partner?

1:46:50I mean, I have to imagine that if somebody, forgive me for going into my head about this, but if I have to imagine, it's just hard for me to imagine being suicidal. That's okay. Yeah, but if I have to imagine that if somebody is feeling suicidal in order to protect themselves against the, like, enormity of the feelings that they would otherwise feel, and then they are offered the opportunity to work, to be released from those feelings, things, I think the scary part would be like the first, it's like waiting into really cold water. You know, I always feel that way about negative things. Once you get past your, you're kind of waste or so.

1:47:28You get your shoulders under. That's a good analogy. It's a heck of a lot easier. It's a really nice analogy. Because you realize there's an upper limit to this stuff and you passed it a little while ago. Yeah, so that suicidal part often transforms into a part that wants to help you live, actually. They're often in the role that's opposite of who they really are. So as you can hear, this is a totally different approach to suicide, for example. And we do the same with addictive firefighters. Find that part that makes you so high. How do you feel toward I hate it? I want to, you know, I want to be in recovery.

1:48:11I want to just lock it up. Just get all that to step out and just get curious about and ask it what is afraid would happen if it didn't get you high all the time. Same answer. If we could heal all that pain or that shame and would you have to get a mile the time? No, but I don't think you can do that. Would you give us a chance to prove we can? Yeah, totally never approached all these problems. Something comes to mind for a number of years, not now, fortunately. I mean, I still work a lot, but I work like, you know, I don't want to, um, well, I'll share the numbers, but it's not a goal that no one should try and exceed this.

1:48:54I mean, there were times in graduate school where I, no joke worked 80, 85 hours a week, slept under my desk. Like I lived in my office as a junior professor. where my students can attest to that brush my teeth and we're not every night. But if I had deadlines, it was just all in with mind, body, heart, everything. It's not healthy. And at some point I had to take a look at it because it's not conducive to a lot of things. It brings a lot, you can get a lot done. I won't lie, you can get a lot done. You can get a lot of degrees. You can get a lot of knowledge and you can accomplish a lot. But I decided to take a look at it.

1:49:30You know, like, what would happen if I, I don't know, published five awesome papers in here instead of 10 or something like, you know, I just started looking at it and it just, it seems crazy now. But I remember the genuine fear of backing off. It's right. And I started to realize that I loved what I did. But that some of the work came from a desire to compete out other feelings. It's a form of dissociation. Totally. And then what happened was I was able to adjust my hours, really pick the projects that held the most meaning for me and then really savor them and enjoy them. And that's how I approached the podcast and other things I'm doing.

1:50:11So it was a tremendously useful exploration, but it was terrifying. I didn't have to go to 12 step for work addiction or anything. It wasn't at that level. But you're giving an example of exactly what we do. We go to that workaholic part. What do you afraid would happen if you didn't do this to him? Yeah, so what I came to, it's interesting, was it was literally a fear of annihilation, of disappearing. And then I thought, well, then you parsed it a little bit further, disappearing to who? It's not like there was an absence of positive feedback. So it wasn't actually to avoid disappearing from the outside world, because I'll tell you, when you're working 80, 85 hours already.

1:50:52You're already gone. You know, you just don't realize it. It was actually some way of avoiding this thing that I've now come to really love. I learned it from my bulldog. I used to have this assumption that slow is low. Like to slow down is depressive. I mean, now I love slowing down. And I did learn that from my bulldog. And a few people came into my life and their dogs as well. And I learned like to really savor slow. And not just so that I can bounce back into work. That too admittedly. But but also to just and it came through, I just would like your thoughts on this. I realized right as I would go into work or come out of a meditation or what I call non sleep deep rest, this kind of yoga a neutral, like, deeper relaxation thing that listeners of this podcast will be familiar with hearing about, that there's this really terrifying moment where I realize someday, assuming I'm awake when it happens, or it's not an accident, or I don't get involved in an accident, I'm going to take my last breath.

1:52:06And it's absolutely terrifying. That concept. And I realized that the fear of disappearing is actually a fear of death. And what I was really afraid of was death. And I was using work. So it was a long way from like working, you know, 60 hours or 40 hours a week in state or 30 whatever But people choose as opposed to 85 But what I realized it what I was running from was the fear of my own mortality And I didn't have to use any substances to realize this I just had to keep peeling back the layers of light. What are you really afraid of? And now I come to the conclusion that most addiction having talked to a lot of addicts with process addictions and substance addictions etc.

1:52:42that deep down everyone addict or no is terrified of death. It's just that some people are in touch with that terror and have worked through it. But so... You remember what I was saying earlier when we talked to these addict parts, what are you afraid would happen if you didn't make them high? He would die. So that's a really common answer. And basically what you just described as you were doing IFS without knowing it, asking those questions, what are you really afraid of? What are you really afraid of? Did you get to the key answer? And then I don't know how you helped that part that fear death, but somehow you helped it relax more.

1:53:25Yeah, I think if I, for better or worse, if I see or experience something that scares me a lot, I have to explore the con -tours of it. That's been a dangerous part of my life and it's been a helpful part of my life too. You know, the ability to suppress one's reflex to avoid fear is such a complicated thing because on the one hand, it's necessary to navigate life. On the other hand, if people always say, what would you tell your younger self if you could tell your young yourself anything. And it would, I would have said, hey dude, listen, you know, something makes you anxious, get out of there because my reflex has always been that if something gives me anxiety, like, okay, here's a test of myself.

1:54:15I need to overcome it. Okay, so that's another part. Yeah, so in any case, some people are the opposite. Yeah, I've tended to touch the hot stove three times when it should have been one trial learning I don't touch the hurt, excuse me the first time. So that's just me. I mean, everyone's got these things, but what I'm discovering, certainly through what you're telling us today, but also the exploration of these things is that so much of life is structured, especially nowadays with the phone, love the phone, love social media, but so much of life is structured to fill all the space between activities.

1:54:56And I do want your thoughts on what you see in terms of things that are active impediments to doing good work of the sorts of work that you're describing today, self -work. I would never ask, I guess, to be disparaging of the world just for its own sake. But I think people are now starting to develop an awareness of how certain technologies and lifestyle habits that are unique to the last five or 10 years are really exacerbating our problems as they relate to ourselves, not just interpersonal dynamics. You seem to be thinking about the big picture a lot, so I'm curious what your thoughts are. Yeah, so all these little machines we have and all the ways we have have never spent any time by ourselves or alone or thank you.

1:55:50just feed these protective parts, these distractors, and leave in the dust more and more these exiled parts. So a lot of people's fear of not having something to do is because when they don't, if they're not working in your case, or then these exiled parts start to come forward, that they're not being distracted from. In my case, I mentioned my father, I'm the oldest of six boys. I was supposed to be a physician like him and a researcher. I was spared that fate because I had a undiagnosed ADD and wasn't a good student. And three of my brothers were physician research types. But I was the oldest, so he was really hard on me, terms of lazy and worthless and so on.

1:56:51So I came out of my family with a lot of worthlessness

1:56:58and actually the model wouldn't exist if I didn't have that because I had this part that had to prove him wrong and drive me, not to the extent you're talking about were sleeping in the office or anything, but it would drive me to find this model and then take it in the face of a lot of attack to where it is now. And if I wasn't working on it and if I wasn't getting the accolades, then that worthlessness would crop up. And then I'd have other firefighters to try and deal with that. And, you know, I had not only the work of Holic Bar, but I had a part that could close my heart and make me not care what people think.

1:57:45And because I was less attacked by traditional psychiatry and so on. For developing internal family systems? Yeah. I was humiliated at Grand Rounds a couple times, and I was in a department of psychiatry. What is with the field of psychiatry? It's a good question. So, point being that I was dominated as I developed this by these protectors, and it got me through all that, but it didn't serve me as a leader of a community. And I was lucky to have some students who would confront my parts. I mean, just say, you can't keep going on like this if you're going to be any used to us. And I listened. I went and worked with that worthlessness.

1:58:31And now I don't have it. I don't have to work. I don't, you know, it's just, I feel free, because I'm not so afraid of that bubbling up if I'm not distracted. And now we have more distractions than ever as we're saying. Right. The pain point can potentially become the source of tremendous growth and value to the world based on what you've developed. Keep in mind, I learned about your work, not just through Martha Beck, although Martha as well, but several incredibly talented psychologists, scholars in the field of research psychology and actually a psychiatrist as well. Yeah, there are some. Yeah, there are some.

1:59:15That's a good one. And maybe I'll just share the, uh, uh, so a psychiatrist that I think the world of said to me, uh, I won't reveal who it is, but they said, do you know why there's so many lousy psychiatrist? This isn't a joke, actually. Um, it sounds like a set up for a joke. I said, no, why? And they said, well, because, you know, if you're cardiothoracic surgeon and like 30 % of your patients die, you're considered a pretty terrible cardiothoracic surgeon. If you're a psychiatrist, unless your patients kill themselves on a frequent basis, you can have a pretty quote -unquote successful career.

1:59:55And no one ever questions whether or not you're good at your job or not. Because the field A has a dearth of tools. B, the kind of assumption is that a lot of things don't get better. And on and on. And they listed off all these reasons why the field of psychiatry is so replete with what they described as lousy psychiatrists. So I do believe there are some excellent psychiatrists out there research and clinical and both. I don't know if that does anything. It sounds like you work through your relationship to psychiatrists on your own. You don't need, you don't need my statements. I agree with you entirely.

2:00:35Yeah. And I'm, you know, I tried to stay in psychiatry and just kept hitting the brick wall and so I went past roots for 30 years and now it started to come around into psychiatry. So it feels good that way. It's interesting how timing in a field is so important and not just an academic field but a clinical field and and the ethos. If anyone is interested in understanding where we are in the arc of medicine and culture, I highly recommend reading all the were sacks's book on the move. He was an obviously neurologist and writer, but he describes coming up through medicine. And being in these various fields, he worked on headache for a while.

2:01:23It's pretty interesting. He wrote a book about my grain. He worked on with kids on the autism spectrum and a bunch of different fields. and in every single one of those fields was vehemently attacked by some individual for whatever reason, usually a superior, kicked out of universities, moved to another one. Now he did have his own issues, he was, you know, it was time he was a methamphetamine addict and things like that. But he got over that and became the great Oliver Sacks that he was. But, you know, he describes these fields as having a culture at the time of really trying to suppress new ideas and holding people down.

2:02:01And then, And toward the end of his career, several of the universities that essentially had fired him earlier, hospitals and universities, were trying to recruit him back with multiple appointments because now he was this famous guy who had written movie or worked on the movie Awakening's and like, you know, and of course, it revealed the hypocrisy of these big institutions. And so it made me chuckle and also realized that for those of us who are doing public health education at any level and certainly on these more non -traditional things, uh, approaches that, uh, the time is right for, for sharing them and, um, on the good news is nobody lists forever.

2:02:41So, you know, the, the old guard dies or retires, you know. That's true. And I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that department of psychiatry to invite me back. You won't ask which one it was. We can have an offline discussion about that. Sure. They just might, um, a couple of more questions. First of all, going back to this thing about the larger context of culture, I love the optimism that's threaded through your view that we could get. God willing, Democrats and Republicans to come to some sort of common ground around the most important issues. that we potentially could eradicate destructive racism, racism of all kinds.

2:03:33But given the way you described it, certainly its implementation in the world is the first thing that needs to be dealt with, right? Certainly if people can see those parts of themselves and work with them, we stand a chance to do that. And given that trauma is near ubiquitous, right, that people could start to address their own traumas so that they can induce fewer and other people. I guess that's basically the ultimate goal of humanity.

2:04:07And I like so many people lately, not just, by the way, not just in the last year or So but like for the last 10 years, have just been developing the sense like goodness, like it just seems like the number of problems has just seems to be expanding exponentially. How do we get our heads around this and there's so much blame game going on well it's because of this and this because of that and like that's not a solution at all. So I love your sense of optimism that it's possible and then my question is how do we get that going? to be direct. Yeah, well, that's what I've been working on the last several years.

2:04:52And what I can say is, for example, I spent 20 years. Like, you know, I worked with Belimia, like I said, and I thought, okay, that really works with that population. You got people who were Belimic to essentially not be Belimic any longer. Yeah. Wow. And then I thought, okay, let's see if no bad parts is really true. And so I went to the toughest populations I could find. And so for 20 years I worked with DID and I worked with... DID, sorry. To associate identity to multiple personality disorder. And I worked with what's called borderline personality, like comments. Yeah, very common, right? Yeah, before when you talked about bulimia bulimia is notoriously difficult to treat let alone cure It's because people fight with the symptoms.

2:05:46They try to get rid of the symptoms instead of listening To the part that's making them down should know what that's about Moving from the one -on -one therapy model to a model where people can do this work on their own as well as in groups But if I'm correct in thinking this it seems like getting the work done with one itself is the first like real step. Yeah. There's no replacement for that. Yeah. And you know, there's in the activist world, there's always been a kind of, you're wasting, wasting your time, but there's been a polarization between being in the activist mindset of really trying to change things in the outside world, versus sitting around and just focusing inside and not being an activist.

2:06:40But I'm working with a lot of the people's, you would recognize terms of activists. And when they came to me, they were doing their activism from the sort of righteous judgmental part. And if we can get that one to step back and have them do their activism from self, They have a totally different impact. People are willing to listen to them, whereas when they're in that righteous place, nobody wants to listen to the shaming that does. It needs to be both. People need to do their work, access self, and then start to try to change the outside world, or not one before the other, but at least simultaneously.

2:07:26I'm really pleased to be here. Fantastic. No, really fantastic. I don't think we've ever done a podcast like this where the audience had a chance to do self -work in real time. Oh, I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity. Yeah, I don't know that I've ever heard a discussion like it to be honest, which is just a testament to you and your bravery, it's very clear that your decision not to go into endocrinology was one that we all are grateful for. Well, my endocrinologist friends will have to just accept that we've got a lot of good endocrinologists. we needed you, Dr. Dick Schwartz to find yourself in this business of discovering and creating a truly novel approach to therapy and self -work that was all the way up to the potential to change culture, change the world.

2:08:38So those aren't just words, those are real aspirational possible things that could be accomplished if people do this work. And in coming here today and sharing with us the structure of internal family systems and a demonstration of how it can work and offering people the opportunity to do it themselves in real time and giving us your perspective about the things that are around it as well is in it with incredible clarity and just a real beautiful sense of care for people that comes through. But also the, I like the concreteness of it so very much. It's very concrete. Right? It's not abstract. And I really appreciate that and I'm certain that everyone else does as well.

2:09:34So I want to thank you for coming here today. for sharing this, we will provide links to places where people can learn more through books and courses and other resources that you've created. And also just for the work that you've done and for being you. It's been a real pleasure and I'm so very glad we did it. Me too, oh my God, my little nervous parts were giving me a lot of trouble. But once we got going, I just felt connected and I felt your appreciation and interest. So we could have this kind of self -to -self exchange, which I love. I just love a spending time in that energy. You're a great interviewer too.

2:10:20So, yeah, thank you. Well, this whole thing is a labor of love and a free fall through just curiosity. Yeah, so it's clear. Yeah, I hope to continue the conversation. We love to. Wonderful. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Richard Schwartz. To learn more about his work and to find links to his many excellent books, please see the show note captions. If you're learning from Ender and enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero -cost way to support us. In addition, please click Follow for the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

2:10:58And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five -star review. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics you'd like me to consider for the Hubertman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

2:11:32And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre -sale at protocolsbook .com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called protocols, an operating manual for the human body. If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads.

2:12:08And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science -related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Hubertman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Hubertman Lab podcast. Again, that's Hubertman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a zero -cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three -page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

2:12:38We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to HubermanLab .com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Richard Schwartz. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.