Peptide & Hormone Therapies for Health, Performance & Longevity | Dr. Craig Koniver

25:12It's going to work systemically. You can inject it in your abdomen, in your rear end. You're still going to get benefit in your elbow. But now you're going to get benefit all your joints all over your body systemically. How do you think that's working? And my understanding is BPC 157 can initiate fiber blast migrations, some of the cells that make up the the various connective tissues that when injured or sore other things can make us injured or sore, of course. But when injured or sore that they those need repair. Yeah. So it always was perplexing to me why one could put BPC 157 in such a small volume under the skin, you know, just a few centimeters off the belly button.

25:50And it would somehow seek out the injury side in an elbow or an Achilles. And there are all these wild anecdotal tales of, you know, lower of let's just say there was this Olympic athlete, not this last Olympics, but the previous summer Olympics that had a torn Achilles who came back a few weeks later and everyone was and meddled. People were talking about, you know, took podium. That is, and people were talking about BPC 157. There was kind of this, you know, and who knows? That's just chatter and fog, as I say. But kind of wild, the idea that you could just inject something systemically, put it into the systemic circulation into the bloodstream and it would ferret out the location in which the injury took place and initiate a recovery response.

26:34But we've seen it with not to get off top of it. We've seen it with the stem cells. So they've taken stem cells. They've tagged them radiographically so you can see them. And the study I read, which I can find for you, someone had a wrist, broken wrist, and they gave them intravenous stem cells. And 24 hours later, when they visualize radiographically, those stem cells had aggregated at the site of the fracture. So there's a lot, you know, about our bodies. Obviously, we don't know. Sure. There's a kind of innate human like design and intelligence, which I believe in. I see it because we've done a lot of IV therapy over the years.

27:14And you, you know, it's interesting. When you give something intravenously, you're getting in the bloodstream and you can feel some of these different compounds, we were just talking about vitamins, working within seconds. And it shows you how quickly things circulate. People don't understand like how quickly we move our circulation. It's massively fast. One has ever gone into the hospital for a surgery and got a cold saline infusion. Yeah. You realize how quickly it hits your toes, you know, they're putting it in at your elbow almost instantly. Yeah. Within a few seconds, it also makes one appreciate how we're all generally a little bit dehydrated.

27:50When you start getting a real proper saline infusion, all of a sudden you feel yourself come to life in a way that, oh, this is what it feels like to have just the right amount of salt in my bloodstream. Exactly. So let's go back to BBC, where I think it shines is in these ligaments and tendons. Right. I think this is where most of these injuries happen is where muscle is connecting to the bone. You know, and there's, you know, people, you know, grow their muscle, but we don't stretch the tendons and ligaments well. And that's where we get pull, sometimes strain, and sprain, and tearing. And I think that's where BPC shine.

28:20That's certainly where it's been studied in animal studies. And I know that because we can inject it directly into tendons, which is unlike steroids, we would never inject steroids into a tendon. You damaged the tendon. BPC, we mix with things like PRP, PRF, which is platelet rich fiber and a little bit different than PRP. And you'll get healing within days, like it's awesome. Wow. Super safe. And it's amazing for people. BPC is definitely shorthand for BPC 157. That is certainly in widespread use. I have been concerned just personally about gray market sources that contain contaminants and the fact that many people are obtaining BPC 157, not from a physician, not from a compounded pharmacy, but just on, quote unquote, on the internet.

29:07Sure. You're a physician. I'm guessing that until the recent ban by the FDA, you were able to prescribe clean BPC as it were. Yeah. What's the story with BPC now? And maybe we could talk about gray market. Sure. Versus, I think it's a great question. Versus prescribed and made it a compounding pharmacy versus pharmaceutical company. Pharmaceuticals. And then of course, there's black market, but let's just leave that out. Sure. There are people that are going to tell you, hey, this is BPC and sell it to you. That's obviously bad and dangerous. Well, we see that with the antibiotic steroids. So antibiotic steroids are in the black market.

29:44You can't really, I mean, there's one antibiotic steroid, which is Nandrolon, which is Dacca, which can be officially prescribed. We use it. You can combine it with testosterone all in the up and up, totally above table. The rest things like tremble on others. You can't get them from a physician. In fact, you're very hard to get them from a reputable website in the United States. So as long as we're here by understanding is Dacca Diroblan and testosterone CIPI and A are can be prescribed or testosterone and Nand -Tate, things like that by physicians. Correct. That's because it's been FDA approved for the treatment of various things.

30:18Hypocanadol syndrome, testosterone replacement therapy and both men and women, Correct. etc. So those categories of testosterone -like compounds, right? CIPI, Nand -Tate, etc. And Dacca Diroblan, which is basically like, is it similar to DHT? A little bit. Yeah. I mean, it's the generic name Nandrolon. Yeah. I mean, it has the flavor of helping with joints. I think it works synergistically with things like testosterone, different, you know, whether it's testosterone, CIPI, Nand -Tate. And I like it for people who, particularly people who've been on testosterone, men who've been on testosterone replacement for a long time, which is many men.

31:01They tend to get less out of testosterone, become less potent, like anything, right? If you use something for a long time, you're going to get less out of it over time. Anything you expose yourself to continually doesn't work as well. And so, you know, like to make this really real out of patient who was in the Marines and served at Secret Service for several White Houses. And he had a lot of osteoporosis, osteopenia, you know, bone loss. And, you know, this is where I learned about using something like Nandrolon because we combined Nandrolon with testosterone. It changed his life, you know, this guy in his 80s, who is how to use a cane, who came back to life, who started, you know, becoming super mobile and working out again.

31:43And synergistically, I think it works really well not to get too far off topic. But, no, it's interesting. And I think another sort of refeditorial for me, if I may, you mentioned this patient was in their 80s. I think nowadays, unfortunately, a lot of younger males in particular, guys in their Cache even teens, but 20s and 30s, in early 40s, think that they need to look to synthetic testosterone in order to look a certain way, performer certain way in the gym, libido, etc. And I'll go on record again and again and again saying that it's absolutely not necessary for most people of those ages, provided that they are taking good care to sleep well, eat well, take care.

32:26Now, but I realize that there are a growing number of use cases where people, for whatever reason, aren't able to recover from exercise, they're struggling. There's a little bit like the Eosemite conversation, right, where there are things that can help move the needle in the right direction, pun intended. But here with testosterone, since synthetic testosterone and deca, there's a real concern about loss of fertility. Totally. I think it brings up a larger point, which is an obviously unbiased, but I think it's super helpful for people to have a physician help them in this course, particularly with testosterone.

33:02It is just known that people get it from their trainers, their bros from the gym, right, who are saying, oh, you got to use this. I mean, I have so many patients who are starting using testosterone in their late teens, early 20s. Goodness. Yeah, that's it. I mean, not goodness, meaning badness. That does not seem to like a good idea. It's still very common, like it's still very gracious. It's still very common. And, you know, one in particular, this is probably 10 years ago, came to see me. He's 25. He got married. And to your point, he said, I'm ready to have kids. I have zero sperm left, right?

33:30And that's a real thing. And so he had been using, and I would say abusing both testosterone growth hormone for years. Now, what he told me was, and I get it, he was Superman. He could wake up to a hard workout. You know, crush it. Wake up the next morning was not sort of crush it again and just kept going, kept going, was super fit, super happy in that regard and how he looked, how he felt, how he performed. But then he got to a point where he was a little bit wiser mature and he was like, oh my goodness. Now, there's a repercussion for this. And I've seen that time and time again. And the repercussion is big.

34:02You're not making any sperm, but the sperm quality is super poor. Now, what do you do? Well, now you got to come off the testosterone. You got to rebuild your system, which we can do. You know, we can use things like clomopheam and clomopheam, HCG, lots of different agents to help in that regard, even certain peptides. But I think it brings up the large point, even getting into peptides, which is having a physician who's knowledgeable to me is super helpful. The challenge for people is they don't know where to get the right information, right? And they're getting it from websites and they're getting it from people saying, oh, just try this peptide.

34:31And I've had lots of people talking about the, you know, websites or whatever, not to name any names who've had anaphylactic reactions to research type peptides, which are not for human consumption. And I'm not saying that there's bad companies or whatever, you just got to be careful. You got to be selective, at least. Right. Well, what brought us on to the conversation about testosterone was this black market issue. There's also what I would call this dark, dark gray market issue, which is that there are a number of companies that will sell all sorts of things, but peptides in particular. Sure.

35:02And listed on their website, it'll say not for human or animal consumption for research purposes only. Right. And one of the major issues is that the potency and cleanliness, so to speak, of purity, yes, of those compounds is not established. Right. And many of them have LPS, Lippie Polysaccharide in them, which is inflammatory. And earlier before we started recording, you mentioned that you have heard of or interacted with not your patients, but people who have come to you saying that they had like really serious life threatening consequences for using these black markets certainly, but dark gray market, yes, peptides.

35:44Yeah. And so to tell the story further is back in October of 2023, the FDA put many peptides BPC and we can name them out on what's called a category two list, meaning they are no longer allowed to be compounded. Right. Now that excludes then research companies who are not under the purview of the FDA, but these compounding pharmacies, it's been a huge blow because they've been told they cannot use these agents. And the compounding pharmacies are distinct from these other black and dark gray sources in that they actually can establish purity. They are designed to be injected into humans. And they have a totally different standard, right.

36:24So they, and I think it's confusing for people in the here compounding pharmacy, they thought, friend, they're not friends, they're FDA regulator, they're board of pharmacy regulated in every state, they are monitored, they are inspected all the time. I've worked with compounding pharmacies my whole career, which is going on, you know, close to 25 years now, just like anything, there's some amazing compounding pharmacies and there's some not so amazing compound pharmacies, which cut corners, the ones we work with don't cut any corners. And I know that because they're inspected all the time, right.

36:51And it's a big deal to them. And they want to do it right with purity, with processing and making sure that anything they make, especially a sterile compound, which is going to be anything injected, you know, eye drops, things you inject in yourself, whether it's IV, subcure, intramuscular, they're considered sterile, they have to then be tested by an outside lab to make sure purity, make sure that there's no endotoxins, things like that. It's highly regulated and it's a big deal for them. And it's a big deal for the physicians who, you know, prescribe with them, which I appreciate because the advantage of compounding pharmacies, we can tweak the dosage.

37:26We don't have to use a standard set dosage. We can combine things synergistically to get, you know, one plus one doesn't equal to now equals four. And that, to me, is a huge advantage, just like we were talking about with the GLP1, semigletydenters hepatitis, we get those compounded so that, you know, we have a, the compounding pharmacy we're using now, we're making a unique combination of tersepatide and semaralin, right, which will address some of this muscle loss that people are getting. So we can combine the... So we can combine the... To stimulate growth hormone release offsets some of the muscle loss from...

37:58Exactly. To represent... Yeah, yeah. And so you can do things like that with a compounding pharmacy, but again, just to make sure people understand, compounding pharmacies are highly regulated, highly regulated. Again, there's always going to be bad apples. But, you know, physicians who know how to work with compounding pharmacies, I think, provide access to things that these conventional both pharmaceuticals and conventional pharmacies can't. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs and it tastes great.

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39:40Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs in a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1 .com slash huberman to claim that special offer. Is it fair to say that if one is interested in exploring the use of peptides for what you refer to as performance medicine? Mental physical health and performance. Yes. Falls underneath that. Essentially, only put peptides into their body, maybe even on their body surface, that they're obtaining from a physician who's obtained the peptides from a compounding pharmacy. Yeah. And who's developing our relationships. So we, for any peptide that we use, we meet with the patient.

40:22We make sure they're a good fit. We make sure that there's no contraindications. We also can recommend and specifically dial it up or down whatever it is. Come up with, this is what we think you should use based upon your life experience, the medicines you're taking or not taking, the conditions you're treating or not treating. Right. I think that's really important. Again, I'm biased being a physician. My whole goal is to get to know patients. That's why I'm here is to kind of walk that walk and help people in that regard. And if someone's out there on the internet doing it themselves, they're walking in, you know, kind of on their own.

40:55And so not to make it like everything bad is going to happen. But when you're when you have the help of someone who has experience that goes a long way, I think particularly with something like this. Yeah, I agree. And it worries me very much that people are buying PPC from gray mark, dark gray market or black market sources. Anything that says on it, not for animal or human use for research purposes only, you can pretty much guarantee the end of toxin that lipopolysaccharide at least has not been removed. And that could be really problematic, especially since my understanding is that I can be cumulative over time.

41:30It's not that one injection causes somebody to go into anaphylaxis shock. It's that some of this LPS can build up an inflammatory response over time. And then you don't know where the tipping point is. And then somebody can have a really terrible reaction. Well, and then taking a step further, you know, getting away from just peptides. But I remember this was, I don't know, 15 years ago, someone was taking advice from a very famous doctor on TV about taking an oral compound to lose weight. And they called me up and they said, I'm having terrible headaches, terrible headaches for days. They came in, their blood pressure was through the roof.

42:03You know, like, I don't remember the specific numbers, but let's just say 220 over 140. And normally it's 120 over 80. Well, did you take anything differently? Yeah, this doctor recommended I take this weight loss compound. Right? So the problem is people have access to all this information. But if they're not under the guidance of a doctor to help clean up the mess, and we clean up the mess, not that there's always mess. But this is what we enjoy doing, you know, as a physician, like we've seen the darkest, the dark, you know, we're able to help people when things don't go perfectly planned. And I think that's a big deal, you know, particularly when there's lots of these tools and they're exciting tools and they're great tools.

42:43And fortunate for me, I've been in this space longer than most that I've just, you know, built up a large repertoire of experience of observing people and working with people and seeing, we got a tweak this, we got a nuance this, or sometimes we don't ever want to use this again. You know, this is not for most people. So given that BPC 157 has been effectively removed from the legitimate market, what are people's alternatives? Again, working with the caveat that people should work with a physician. Yeah, where can physicians get something similar enough to BPC 157s? So there's a new compound newer peptide column, the sort for PDA, Penta Deca Arginate.

43:27It's basically the same molecular structure as BPC, except they've swapped out and acetate for Arginate. One amino acid substitution. One amino acid substitution. And so we're using that and having really good results. I certainly, it's early in the game of using PDA, but it seems very close to BPC in the clinical responses we're getting from our patients who are reporting back decrease in inflammation, all these wonderful things that we used to see with BPC. And I think I surmise that this is going how it's going to be with all of these peptides, right? Because again, peptides are just chains of amino acids.

44:07You know, certainly a lot of people smarter than me trying to figure out how do we then create other types of amino acid combinations, you know, i .e. peptides that do similar actions to BPC, to thymus and alpha, to ipramarone, to tb500 on and on and on. So I'm hopeful in that regard. And I also, you know, some of my patients work at the very highest level of the US government. They are well aware of this. And whoever assured me they're going to look at this. That this is serious, you know, because they've been using peptides. And they're concerned that, oh my goodness, the FDA came in and changed the game.

44:41For every, it's been a huge setback for all of us. I definitely want to circle back as to what the motivation was by the FDA for doing that. At some point, I think in the meantime, however, I think there's a lot of interest in BPC 157, a lot of use of BPC 157, the sources of BPC 157 are now drying up. And that's why I'm personally concerned that people are going to start going to the dark gray market and black market. I'm excited about the pentadeca arginate. Yes. So let's put that on people's ear map, bring map, pentadeca arginate, maybe a good physician prescribes substitution for people that can benefit from BPC 127.

45:25And a good starting dose. So to make it really clear for people in helpful, 250 micrograms to 500 micrograms. We're using 500 micrograms injected daily. Again, we like Monday through Friday. Take the weekends off. That's a good dosing schedule. We'll see how that goes. We probably can use larger dosages. That's conservative. But that's a good starting point for people. And thus far, you haven't mentioned any side effects of BPC 157 or pentadeca arginate. That's kind of remarkable. It's been tremendous. Yeah. We were using BPC intravenously as well. Patients would come in and, oh, tweak my knee, tour my ACL, tour my meniscus, whatever.

46:04You can give them BPC essentially as a bolus intravenously. My goodness, that made a difference. Now, that using something intravenously from the pharmacokinetic standpoint, it's not going to last in the system very much. More of a spark where it's used in agents subcutaneously, you're going to get more of a long lasting, you know, again, not terribly long lasting with peptides, but longer than using something intravenously. Kind of the sweet spot was certainly using both. You could use something as a spark to initiate that anti -inflammatory cascade, then follow up with the subcutaneous dose.

46:34Yeah. And even though earlier we were talking a little bit about some hormone replacement therapies, before that off -microphone, you mentioned that you prefer peptides to direct hormone manipulations in most cases. So I think while peptides can be hormones, there are things like oxytocin and sometimes called a peptide hormone. In general, when people think about hormone therapies, they're thinking testosterone, estrogen, pregnant alone, you know, thyroid, etc. It sounds to me like much of your practice is built up around the notion that there are things that one can use peptides to kind of push and pull on these various systems without getting into them directly.

47:18My understanding as the advantage of that is you don't get the negative feedback. You don't get the shutting down of natural production. Yeah. You know, testosterone is a great example because like we were saying, I don't ever want to manipulate hormones. Growth hormones another example. I don't ever want to manipulate that meaning, you know, providing it to people and more than they would get in nature. This is why I actually don't a little bit off -top it like when people use testosterone pellets or any sort of pellet therapy because you're exposing people to a concentration of hormones we would never ever see in nature.

47:49I would prefer people inject it where you're going to get some variation in dose on a day -to -day basis, which we're human. So we do get some day -to -day variation or topically or under the tongue or something. Peptide same thing. I don't want to manipulate the hormones, right? I want to just stick within kind of the highways of the lane, swim lanes for how they should operate and then take advantage of that. And that's been a safe way to do it as opposed to, and I've seen it, you know, talking about another peptide, which is ipramarine, a growth hormone releasing peptide. Ipramarine, you inject under the skin, travels up to the pituitary, the posterior pituitary, in the brain, which is responsible for putting out growth hormone.

48:28That growth hormone then leaves the pituitary, enters the bloodstream, travels to the liver, where we make insulin -like growth factor one, which then enters the circulation. It's very anabolic, meaning growth, healing, mending. You know, as we get older, we make less growth hormone. As we get older, we wear down. Obviously, we get degenerative conditions. Part of that, I don't know what part of everyone's a little bit different, is because of our hormone on the climb. And so when you can give something like ipramarine, and we can talk about others, you're actually helping not only push out a little bit of growth hormone for people, we are directing when you push it out, right?

49:02We think, so it's important for people to be asleep by 10 pm, between 10 pm and 2 am, because we think that's the big largest pulse of growth hormone during the 24 hour period. Is that right? So I've long wondered whether or not the time was growing up, which is that every hour before midnight is worth two hours of sleep postman night. That feels true to me. Yeah. Then again, feels true as often misleading, but feels true to me, but it makes perfect sense if the largest pulse in growth hormone is occurring in a couple of hours before midnight. Yeah. I mean, that's how I learned it. I agree with you.

49:38It feels true to me as well. But taking advantage of that, you know, injecting something like ipramarine at bedtime, then you're going to, you know, within a few minutes, and with ipramarine, it's interesting because people will get a little flushing tingling at times. And what I've seen, what the point of making is there are some physicians and some pharmacies, which, you know, the dosage of ipramarine, and most of these growth hormone released, in peptide, should be 100 micrograms. That's the max dose for to bind the receptor. And, you know, what I've seen is with ipramarine rare, but some people do get anaphylaxis.

50:14And it's happened. And I think that happens when people are pushing it and giving more than they should. And I've heard of that. They're giving 200, 300, 400 micrograms at a time, which is a big dose. Now what they're getting is the client, the patient is like, oh my gosh, I feel this amazing flushing. It must be working. But then you could spiral into, oh my goodness, I don't feel so good in your, you know, circulation system collapsing. So yeah, using side effects as a indicator of whether or not something's working just seems like a terrible idea. But it's very common, you know, yeah, I tend to be very conservative about these things.

50:48And by the way, I've tried various peptides for short periods of time because I like to experiment very safely. And some things like sarmarellen, and we'll talk about other growth hormone secrete dogs, for me, for whatever reason, you know, gave me great sleep, but only in the first part of the night, it nuked my rap and I movement sleep in the second half of the night. It spiked my prostate specific antigen. It was a very consistent effect. I came off it and it went back down. I went back on it went back up. And so I just found I couldn't take it. And it didn't take me very long to figure that out.

51:21But I know that there are some people who love sarmarellen and don't see any of the same issues. So it seems like it can be very individual. I agree with that. I agree with that. And that's why I think it's again helpful to work with a physician who has experience who can kind of, you know, I think of these peptides as having flavors, particularly the growth hormone releasing peptides. Iparamurone, very clean, you know, as long as you stay within 100 microamps or less, people are going to lean out a little bit, sleep a little bit better. There's no real side effects. So they take it pre -sleep at bedtime without carbohydrates ingested in the previous two hours, correct?

51:53Yeah, or 45 minutes technically. Yeah, but that's right. And then there's something like growth hormone releasing peptide 6, GHRP 6, which is also going to bind. So I think of Iparamurone being the most specific for the growth hormone receptor, but the weakest. So when you inject it, you will get growth hormone to come out and only growth hormone, but it's not going to be a big burst of growth hormone. You inject GHRP 6, now you may bind some perlactin, now you may bind some ACTH, which is going to have your dreams put out cortisol. Now you're going to get a hunger response, right? Maybe even have trouble sleeping if you may have trouble sleeping.

52:24But where is that where that's beneficial for us, if you're looking to put on mass or get strong GHRP 6 is your go to, right? Because you will increase your appetite. And if you're smart, you'll eat a lot more protein. And the building of muscles not necessarily complicated, right? It's resistance training, sufficient protein, which is where I think most people fall off. And then having some anabolic kind of hormone in the background, like growth hormone, or testosterone, or both helps that process. That's where GHRP 6 can shine. I mean, within weeks, people will get big and strong, increase their bench press, whatever.

52:57Stuff flat out works. But you got to know how to use it and understand the flavor. And so the point of making is, these different pet pets have different flavors. And to your point, there's individual responses. That can be a good thing. I think for most of our audience, the interesting growth hormone secretedogs probably relates to the better sleep and the overall feelings of vitality. And probably most people are seeking to not spike their appetite or put on muscle, really. These days, we're hearing more and more from people, both men and women who want to be strong without being big. Yeah. And they prefer to be lean as opposed to not lean, which I think is a great goal.

53:34I frankly, that's my goal at this stage of life. I just turned 49 yesterday. And I really, oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for coming out to the birthday. Oh, yeah. That was a lot of fun. Mini bash the other day. It was a lot of fun. You know, I, I, yeah, I want to be strong and capable. I also want to be able to run and have cardiovascular fitness, but I don't want to be large. I don't want to take up a lot of space. I'm not interested in doing a lot of space. And I think most people fall into that category. So if GHRP six can spike appetite, which for a subset of people might be useful.

54:07But probably most people will want to avoid it. Ipa Morellen. I've always been calling it Ipa Morellen, but Ipa Morellen at a hundred micrograms, dosage or less per night. Sounds like it's an interesting tool. What are some of the other growth hormones, acriticogs? And I should just brief, I'll take the liberty of define that these are peptides that stimulate the release of your own endogenous growth hormone. This is not taking growth hormone. Right. Yeah. Two other main ones that we use. One would be Tess Morellen, which is similar to Sem Morellen and that it also is going to work on the growth hormone, releasing hormone aspect a little bit higher up in the, you know, chain of how these hormones are released.

54:48So both Sem Morellen and Tess Morellen, you don't necessarily need to add anything else to it. Classically with Ipa Morellen, hex -round GHRP six, we would add this other compound CJC1295, which is going to work on the GHRH, which allows the peptide and then the growth hormone to stay in your system a little bit longer. The growth hormone, releasing hormone. Correct. Yeah. But we can almost set aside CJC now because CJC1295, the FDA just came in and let's just say one acronym took out another. There you go. The FDA took out CJC. Okay. NBPC. NBPC. People are probably getting a little dizzy with these acronyms, but I think we're doing a good job of guiding people along.

55:29So Sem Morellen and Tess Morellen are similar enough. Similar in that regard. Okay. Tess Morellen again, talking about flavors. Tess Morellen works on visceral fat reduction, so fat around the organs. And it's been FDA approved for that purpose. With HIV patients having this lipodistrophy, which is abnormal accumulation of fat and particular visceral fat around organs. So Tess Morellen works well for that. My observation from using it for lots and lots of people seems to work better in females than males. Or does it get lead to this feeling of enhanced sleep as well? Yeah. So I think any of the growth hormone releasing peptides, anytime you're going to make growth hormone more active in your world, that's how I think about it, better sleep, better skin tone texture, you're more resilient I think growth hormone is a resiliency hormone durability.

56:16People find that I do a hard workout, but it takes me days to recover, I spray my ankle, it takes me a week to recover, I cut my skin, takes me forever to heal. They've got a durability issue. And that's how I think about where growth hormone can shine. Not that you got to go all the way to growth hormone, but these peptides can be a really nice push. And this is taken before sleep, no food within 45 minutes, or have the injection. And then the kind of the magic than what we do is when we first started about eight years ago, we'd use one peptide at a time. And then what we learned is let's combine these peptides, let's stack peptides.

56:48And that's how we do it. At lower dosages. Sometimes lower dosages. But for example, we had a great combination BPC, Ipaneroin and Tess Marone all together taking it bedtime. And you're going to get subcutaneous fat reduction from the Ipaneroin, this real fat reduction from the Tess Marone, up regulation of the growth hormone receptor from the BPC. It was a wonderful peptide. We kind of labeled it as a fat loss peptide, but people put on lean muscle mass, they sleep better, their skin would be better, they'd be more durable. Their thought process would be better. Awesome stuff. And that's where I think that that's where we enjoy it is stacking these peptides together.

57:24So it's not again, just one peptide at a time, but able to do it. And that's why again, working with a compounding pharmacy, we can put these together. So you're only doing one shot a day. You may be doing three to seven peptides, but it's still one shot. Got it. And if one is combining a Tess Marone or Sermer Allen, Ipaneroin and well, not BPC anymore, but Pentedeca, originate instead because you can't get BPC 157 compounded. Is that done every night, five days a week, three days a week? What's the rationale of this five days on two days off? Five days on two days off. I came up with because of how we would dose growth hormone.

58:05So the traditional growth hormone dosing cycle would be five days on two days off, taking it bedtime. Yeah. And that's where it came up. And then I personally with patients in myself, I like to take breaks. So even with supplements, I won't take them on the weekends. Right? Because I think you, you know, again, anything you expose yourself to on a radio basis is going to decrease the potency. We see that with exercise, we see that with food. If you're eating the same food every day, it seems to become less valuable for you. Right? Like, change it up. Like, we have to, you know, throw on the crazy switch every now and then, but change it up.

58:37And so then you're going to make it more potent for you. I'd do the same thing with supplements. So that, you know, just resonates with me with people to take a break from stuff. I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function. I recently became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in -depth program for analyzing blood urine and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.

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1:00:27Again, that's functionhealth .com slash huberman to get early access to function. Today's episode is also brought to us by 8th sleep. 8th sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling heating and sleep tracking capacity. I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night. That's truly the foundation of all mental health, physical health, and performance. And one of the best ways to ensure that you get a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment. And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

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1:01:37If you'd like to try an 8th sleep mattress cover, go to 8thsleep .com slash huberman to save up to $350 off their pod for ultra. 8th sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU and Australia. Again, that's 8thsleep .com slash huberman. Before we start recording, you mentioned that you're actually not a huge fan of taking massive amounts of supplements that you are a big fan of taking coq 10, coins on Q10, 200 milligrams per day in the morning. I also take coq 10, I think I started taking it for a quote unquote general mitochondrial health. I don't know that I thought very carefully about exactly what I was trying to accomplish with it, but what is the rationale of taking coq 10?

1:02:21So if I break it down and try to keep it simple, if we people are familiar with the mitochondria, it's the battery of the cell, these little organelles inside each cell, and they're responsible for doing many things, but primarily making ATP chemical energy. And so how do we make energy? Well, there's three main ways the body uses it, right? Or makes it first is glycolysis. We take glucose, which is a six carbon molecule. We break it in half to make two pyruvates, right? That when we do that, we make a little bit of ATP. That pyruvate then is converted to something called acetyl -CoA. We run that through the creb cycle, where we're also making ATP, but then we're making these intermediate products.

1:03:02One of those intermediate products in the main one is something called NADH. That NADH is then shuttle to the mitochondrial membrane for, you know, this is the magic where we make the most ATP, and there's five different hubs, or we call cytochromes, right? And so I think about it because I just like to simplify. Cytochrome one is where we use NAD. And what the different hubs are doing is we're exchanging electrons for protons. And that's a kind of electrical process. We're exchanging electrons for protons, going down an assembly line to eventually turn this wheel, the ATP -space wheel, to make ATP.

1:03:37The way I understand it is the five different hubs, different nutrients hit them. So cytochrome one is NAD. Cytochrome two is riboflave, and vitamin B two, and succinic acid. Cytochrome three is coq10, vitamin K2. Cytochrome four is methylene blue, which we can talk about, and then cytochrome five are things like magnesium, vitamin A, and copper. So if you're thinking about mitochondrial health, if you include any, or better all of those, you're going to maximize how your mitochondria can work and make energy. It's the strongest way to do it. And it's again, not necessarily complicated. So when I think of coq10, and again, we do use a lot of NAD, which we can talk about, where I think most people, the traffic congestion happens on cytochrome one, right?

1:04:20And so when we give people up -regulate their NAD production, it's essentially we're allowing for more electron flow at cytochrome one, which has a downstream effect on the other cytochromes, so the traffic jam opens up. And now you can move electrons to exchange for protons and make way more ATP. And if you're - but that's not true for everyone. And so some people, it could be a cytochrome three with coq10, it could be a cytochrome two. A lot of people with cytochrome four, which is, again, cytochrome, we call it cytochrome C oxidase, which is where methylene blue binds. But that's just a simplistic view.

1:04:50We just people we run into traffic jams, right? These electron flow get stuck, we're just trying to open up the traffic jam. So 200 milligrams a day of coins on Q10 can be can facilitate some of that. Right, cytochrome three. Sure. Yeah. And coq10 has been studied very safe up to 2400 milligrams a day. No harmful. Yep. No harmful effects. Sometimes I'll take more. Like I was telling you earlier, it's been dramatic for me with migraine headaches and basically reducing them to zero. You know, as people are hearing this, they're probably thinking, okay, well, these are just, you know, this is what I call anic data or whatever, I, you know, I don't have to remind people that you're a board certified physician.

1:05:25I think that what, what still ringing in the back of my mind, this entire conversation, even though I'm being very careful attention, is that most of the drugs that are prescribed in this country are off label. Yeah. I think I just like, I don't think I've ever heard that stated out loud. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. Right. So the idea that people would take something that wasn't shown in a clinical trial to be effective for purpose A, that they would, but it gets, that it gets approved for purpose A. Yeah. But then can be prescribed by doctors for purpose B, C, D, or E. Right. I mean, you're not telling me this is commonplace.

1:05:59You're telling me this is the majority of major. But it makes sense if you think about right. So if you took an antibiotic, right? Like we can just, an antibiotic is going to be very specific what it gets approved for in terms of like working against a specific bacteria. But then through clinical use and just experience, you know, we learn that, oh, I can use doxycycline or Z -pack azithromycin or whatever it is. For a variety of bacterial infections that extend well beyond just what it's approved for, what that makes sense. And does that ever cycle back to the clinical trials or no, that just becomes physician understanding and lower?

1:06:34Like, hey, yeah, you know, I've got patients that you know, they get on on azithromycin and they're, they're acting clear. So by the way, I'm not saying that folks. I'm not a physician, but for instance, it exactly would happen with semi -gluteinazampic, right? But prove for helping glucose utilization or lowering, you know, blood glucose and patients with type 2 diabetes and they found through use only people are losing weight. And now it's become blockbuster and it's, and we see it with, you know, things like, you know, repurposing drugs for cancer, right? There's, there's, there's a lot of that going on, a lot of the repurposing.

1:07:07So, you know, doxycycline is a very common one that's used in cancer therapies. I think by sophisticated oncologists, I don't treat cancer but by sophisticated oncologists to use things like doxycycline metform and but bendizol, which is an anti -parasitic drug, right? To help with cancer. So that's amazing. So interesting. It is amazing. I think also, you know, I'm reminded that, you know, medicine is beautiful. I feel as it is. I tremendous respect for it. Of course, is a field of fairly siloed training. And I love the idea that now thanks to public education efforts like this one, that you're providing us that physicians learn from each other in a much broader way and can potentially hear about what drugs can be useful for this or that.

1:07:59The other thing, and this is not editorial, this is, this is a real observation. Pharmaceutical companies are very interested in the other uses of already approved drugs. The research and development process for a drug, the safety evaluation is incredibly expensive. So they want nothing more than to take a drug that's already been approved for one purpose and to take that already safety approved drug and find other uses. How are they not circling back to the off -label use and understanding of these compounds and then essentially marketing them for these other purposes? Or I guess with those MPEG, that's exactly what happened.

1:08:39That's what happened with those MPEG. I mean, it's, again, I write prescriptions. I think there's a time and place. I think it's challenging for me, though, right? And I think for a lot of physicians, it's become challenging, operating in a paradigm when we talk about chronic disease, which is essentially failing. I mean, and we all know the statistically, we're not making huge dense and heart disease cancer, autoimmune disease, neurodegeneres. We're not at all, but we're spending exorbitant amounts of money, right? And this is, you know, something that I had to learn over time and I don't know how I got into it, but when I started my practice back in 2006, I started, it was a traditional family medicine practice, but I started using these nutritional IVs.

1:09:23And this is before hangover IVs, this is before this popular, this is, you know, 20 years ago. And what I learned was that these nutritional IVs help people feel better quickly. And I developed this model for my patients, which I think is a better model, which is I want to help people feel better first, like we were talking about earlier in this podcast, because if I can get people to feel better, what we learned through COVID, and honestly, what I want to say to you, Andrew, which is really true, your podcast and what you do has been so successful at a time during the pandemic when people lost so much trust and people like me, right?

1:09:58People lost that trust of what do I do, you know, my, this is a scary time. I don't know what's going on. And you guys come along, you in particular, providing this very stable, vetted information that people can trust and have a starting point be like, this is what I want to do, because health, one of the gifts of COVID was it put our health on the forefront of most people's mind and life. And so what you're doing is tremendous work. And I can tell you personally, no, literally, like as a physician, I am just, it's, it's such an honor to be here and to talk to you because every day, every day, my patients come to me and said, I heard this on the Hubert Minimum lab podcast, what do you think of it?

1:10:45And I am not joking. And I love that. I think it is awesome because people were one taking their health seriously, but two, they have a stable resource that they can trust. The problem with physicians and I'll tie this back in is physicians are hard to trust, right? And it's this paternalistic model, which is, and that's how I was trained, which is, you know, you're going to do this because I'm going to tell you to do it, right? And I remember being in medical school, which was in the 90s. And I can't remember the exact specifics of the study, but they would go, they did a study where they collected the trash outside of physicians offices, found that greater than 30 % of prescriptions were written that they were thrown away.

1:11:26Greater than 30%. Wow. And what, and I remember learning that and I was like, what is going on? By the patients. Correct. Like you came to the doctor because you wanted a prescription, right? No. You came to the doctor because you weren't feeling good. You came to the doctor because you wanted to be listened to you came to the doctor because you wanted to be validated. And most of the time, and this still happens to today, the vast majority of doctors will just write you a prescription or they'll write you two prescriptions. And that's not what most people want. Sometimes it is, and I do it, and sometimes it is, but there are so many other tools that we can use.

1:12:02And so when I help people feel better first, why I've been successful and I work with the peak people on this planet, whether the athletes, the best athletes, celebrities, the royal family, you name it. I'm so privileged. It's because they trust me. And that trust is really important. I take that really seriously, you know what I mean? And so tying it back in is we've lost a lot of that with the pandemic. It's actually come to the forefront. And so that's why I want to help people feel better first. You know, the traditional model of medicine is this get a diagnosis, write a prescription. If that prescription doesn't work, write another prescription.

1:12:40And so yes, there's a time and place for that, but there's also time and place for just helping people. It only works when people value themselves enough. Like we're talking, I can tie this back to weight loss, right? Why do people have such trouble losing weight? I would argue that most people don't value themselves enough to actually care enough to make the hard disciplinary choices in their life to get away from emotionally eating. You know what I mean? To do the right things that they actually it's going to be a struggle to get the right food for themselves, get away from processed foods to be disciplined to go to the gym on a regular basis.

1:13:16They don't have the right people that they trust. This is where you've been such a gift. Tremendous gift. Thank you for the kind words. I mean, the birth of the podcast did take place during the pandemic. And in large part because I saw everybody getting very anxious. They're circadian rhythms disrupted. And those were focuses of my laboratory. And frankly, when I was a postdoc and graduate student, but especially as I got a little older in my years, I couldn't believe that I was reading these papers about how important it morning sunlight is and all these things. But then my colleagues were all getting sick and dying around me or getting what we call the tenured look where they show up, you know, start their job in five years later.

1:13:57They look like they've aged 25 years. And I realized that I wanted to avoid that. So I've always just enjoyed learning and sharing science and health tools. And so thank you for the kind words. I've certainly been kind of both astonished and positively amazed in the ways that the pandemic and the post -pandemic years, I like to think we're in the post -pandemic years. I think we can safely say that. And now, how they've drawn people's attention to this idea that they need to take agency into their own healthcare. That no one, no pill potion injection, et cetera, can replace good behaviors. Pills, potions, and injections can potentially augment those good behaviors and get people going down the right path, which is what we're talking about today.

1:14:45But that it's a, it's really a personal responsibility. I mean, no one can give us a common mind. No one can give us a healthier body. No one can do that, right? You can, it's interesting that some of the wealthiest people in the world, the new thing isn't for people to boast about their, their yachts or their properties. It's about their health. It's about their vitality, their longevity, because that's the thing that I suppose in some sense money can start to buy, but it doesn't require a ton of funds to take great care of one's body and mind. It doesn't. And what I've learned, and I've had to learn this over time, and I think the wisdom is, is, and this is why it's even more challenging.

1:15:25Because I think people, you know, go on social media and they listen to podcasts and they listen to influencers, and a lot of the messages is additive, right? If you're not doing a high -intensity workout every day, and then doing sauna for X amount of time, and then cold plunge, and all this kind of dieting, you're not doing it well, I know that that is cumulative, that stress of that is cumulative to people, right? And so what I've learned, and I have a really good friend, probably the most, you know, affluent, successful, but also the most generous and smartest person I know who lives on the big island, and he says to me, which is worth repeating here, I look for every opportunity to surrender, and it is that surrender to people who you can trust, to guide you, right?

1:16:07So you don't have to be the quarterback of everything, right? And that takes off the pressure, and I think finding it's not always about adding, it's actually creating space for us to just be in that flow, right? Like this to be, and like, and I know you've talked about this a lot, that kind of active rest place, where it's not about being super focused, it's not about just going to sleep, but almost the best parts of our day is when we're in that flow state where things just click, and to me helping people with those, you know, types of times and figuring that out is the most valuable. And I don't think people talk about that enough, so I appreciate that you do a lot.

1:16:41Yeah, well, and I appreciate that you're bringing up this notion that, you know, just stacking more and more behaviors, like, you got a crushal workout and do sauna, and that is not the message, you know, sometimes we get teased, and there's some good comedy takes on me that make me chuckle now and again, about that, but that's not the approach. These are tools that people can, it's a buffet. And I think most everyone agrees that sleep is key. Most everyone agrees that exercises key nutrition is key, great social connection is key. When it comes to, because I want to make sure that we circle back to this, when it comes to the peptides, it seems that one of your approaches, if I may, is to kind of raise the tide so that the boat can get out, can get out to sea.

1:17:29And we were talking about these growth hormones, the creatiogs. We covered GHRP6, which is the one that stimulates appetite, it's probably going to be a niche case condition that people would want to use that. Ipermarell and Tess Morrell and Somorrell, and I get a lot of questions about, is it MK67? What a normal does MK67? It sounds like a weapon. It does. I think it's just like GHRP6, however, it's absorbed well orally. So it's basically the same. I see it working this very similarly. To GHRP6, so it stimulates appetite. It does. It stimulates cortisol prolactin. It sounds like not good situation for most people.

1:18:09Not for most people, although, let me give you an example, where I have a client, a very successful guy, and he's been on testosterone, he's doing all the things. He's in his early 60s, he's working out well, he eats well, super well, all these things. He can't put on muscle mass well. And actually, as people get older, that does become an issue for a lot of people's maintaining healthy muscle mass. MK677, before it was taken off the compound list by the FDA, it's another one that was included. Another acronym, take it out. But you can take it orally, which again removes the stigma of burden of having to do a shot, and you will increase your appetite.

1:18:50And that actually is a very useful agent, metabolically, for people as they get older. And I know this, my approach with this, both personally, I try everything I can. And I remember MK677, I took it bedtime, and it was an hour later, I was in a dead sleep, and I woke up, and I had to go eat. It sounds like puberty. It was. I was like, what is going on, because I didn't totally understand. I was like, what? Oh, I took that calf. Oh, my gosh, I should never have taken it right before bed. And I had to go up and eat and destroyed my sleep that night. But I learned, and I always learned, and I'm grateful for it, but don't take that one at bedtime.

1:19:29But it absolutely will stimulate your appetite. Which are the growth hormone secreted dogs that your more typical patients who don't want to stimulate appetite, both male and female patients prefer. What are you compounding for them? I test some relan. I don't see any appetite stimulation from that. Hexarol only haven't talked about that. I don't really see that. It's about Hexarol. Yeah, Hexarol. Hexarol. Yeah, sure. Hexarol and I think of his more, again, if we talk about the flavor of these peptides, how I kind of look at it in my head is more of the energy endurance growth hormone releasing peptides.

1:20:03I like it for people to use it in the morning. They get a nice burst of energy. They feel it's a clean energy. It's not a caffeinated energy or jittery or anything like that. And it's good for more endurance type, you know, athletics are working out. So people in that, you know, field of competition or whatever. I think Hexarol is a great choice. Does not spike appetite? I have not seen that. So this is taken first thing in the morning. You get an additional growth hormone release. Yes, you do. Yeah, you do in the early mornings when you're waking up. And you used to compound it with CJC 1295 together.

1:20:36The other pathways involved that can help, but now CJC has been taken out by the FDA. Right, but Hexarol still exists. That can be compounded. What's the dosage on Hexarol and that you typically burst? 100 micrograms. It's the same as these other like Ipramarone, GHRP6, 100 micrograms. The two that are different would be Tess Morone, ideal dose is two milligrams per dose, which is 2000 micrograms. So quite different. And then Semiron has a actually very broad dosing range anywhere from 200 micrograms. I've used it up to 3000 micrograms, depending on, you know, your goals. We were talking about Quins, I'm Q10 and the CREB cycle.

1:21:15And I forgot to close the hatch on supplements more broadly. Again, it doesn't sound like you're a big fan of taking lots of pills and capsules. I think some people will take that as a relief. I think a lot of people get tired of taking a lot of pills. Some people don't like to do that. What are some of the other things that you do take besides Coins, I'm Q10. Earlier, we're talking methylated vitamins. This is becoming increasingly popular. We're starting to hear more about methylation and methylated compounds. Could you educate us on methylated B vitamins? Yeah. I think people are familiar with it.

1:21:54Some people are talking on podcasts about the MTHFR SNIP. We've not talked about that. Okay. This podcast. So be nice. Sure. So SNIP is a single nucleotide polymorphism, meaning that genetically things don't flow as easily. Again, that's an oversimplification. You could be homozygous for that, meaning you have both genes, making you influencing you more. You could be heterozygous, meaning it's just one gene, mean one copy from one parent, or homozygous, you say copy from each parent. You say it way better than I know. What that means is where we see that reflected, homocysteine is a marker we use, a lab marker we use.

1:22:33It's an emerging marker for looking at one's cardiovascular risk profile. And so if one's got an elevated homocysteine, and elevated by some lab, this can be greater than seven, by most labs greater than nine, means you're at an increased risk of what that is. I don't remember, but you're an increased risk of having a cardiovascular event, which means heart attack or stroke. And so we want to lower that number. And the best way to lower that number is taking ample methylated B vitamins. Methylated means you're adding a methyl group. So methyl B12, methylfolate, tri -methoglycine, methionine. These are all methylation donors, which just metabolically and through your detoxification pathways in your liver is going to help you lower that homocysteine.

1:23:20I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but that's most people, if you're going to take a B vitamin, take a methylated B vitamin, because then you overcome, you, again, I don't, we've done a lot of MTHFR testing. I don't think it's as profound as some people make it out to be like it's going to change their life. I've never seen that. Can it help you? Sure, but you're going to overcome it by taking sufficient methylated B vitamins anywhere. And again, those methylated B vitamins are methylated B12. 12, folate. There's a methylated B6. There's, and then try methyl glycine. TMG is a good compound methionine, is a good methyl donor, is a amino acid.

1:23:57Are these taken in the morning or in the afternoon? I like taking them in the morning, although I think, for people to play around with, because I've certainly seen it, people get that 3 p .m. kind of slumber as opposed to reaching for the coffee or the donut, take some more methylated B vitamins and see what happens. We're just the coffee. No, sorry, you're not supposed to drink caffeine into late in the day. Lately, what I find, I don't know, this is wrong to bring up on this podcast, but I can't help myself. I love your Ramata in the morning and afternoon. Okay. Coffee in the morning now makes me feel nauseous.

1:24:27I don't know if I'm pregnant or something, but it makes me feel nauseous. But I love the taste of coffee in the afternoon. This is like a midlife thing. I don't know what it is. So now in the afternoon, around 1 or 2 p .m., even just the smallest amount of coffee, it's like the most delicious thing I've ever tasted. Yeah, I love coffee. It can mess with your sleep too late in the day, but that's a perfect segue to talk about sleep. Sure. Because one thing that I know you've done a lot of work on and with are these peptides that can improve sleep, not just by virtue of enhancing growth hormone release, but I'll just be very direct.

1:25:04For the last, four to six months, I've had the opportunity to try pinealin.

1:25:14Injectible pinealin combined with glycine, goodness gracious in the positive sense of the goodness gracious. You're from the south. So I don't know where, where, but you will have the never before have I found something that can improve the amount of rapid eye movement sleep that I get. Yeah. Besides rapid eye movement sleep deprivation. You know, sleep deprivation the next night, you'll get a compensatory effect. That's not the way to increase your REM sleep folks. You know, there are a lot of things like high -intensity exercise that improve my slow -wave deep sleep, cold plunge early in the day, improve slow -wave deep sleep.

1:25:49There have been a few other things. But with pinealin, and by the way, I'm not doing this every night, I do occasionally, I have randallal experiment and I track my sleep using the sleep tracker that's in eight sleep. And it's doubling the amount of rapid eye movement sleep that I'm getting. Doubling. Yeah. Which is so like from an hour to two hours or from an hour and 30, nearly three hours. Even I posted a picture of a sleep score with some rapid eye movement sleep. It's not something I typically do. But even the most competitive of biohackers, Brian Johnson was like, oh, a nice sleep score.

1:26:27Now he touts a sleep score that's perfect every night for every night. But I'm kind of poking at Brian because we like to poke back and forth. We're friendly with one another. So the point being that pinealin is a remarkable way to increase rapid eye movement sleep. I have very little knowledge about it, except that my understanding is that it might stimulate some regeneration or stimulation of the pinealisides of the pineal. That's exactly it. You've nailed it. Yeah, I remember when you messaged me after starting it and you were like, this is amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, you were saying amazing.

1:27:04I hope the FDA doesn't nuket as a consequence of this conversation. I hope to do. No, but I mean, your response is what we see with our other patients who are loving. And I think that combination with glycine, I'm a big fan of glycine and inject it seems to work really well. But back to your question about pinealin. Yeah, I mean, it's a bit one of the smallest peptides, but I think it's one of the most profound. We used to combine it with epitalan, the Russian peptide that was used for circadian rhythm. And for my understanding, epitalan also, it's involved in DNA repair and might it has been explored in animal studies for trying to offset vision loss in some retinal degenerative conditions.

1:27:43Yeah, again, put on the do not compound list with all the others. That's gone. Yeah. But pineal on stays and remains. And yeah, your response to it and experience with it has been very commonplace for working with patients and seeing that it's I think there's a sort of circadian rhythm aspect with it as well, you know, and helping with melatonin production. Obviously, that comes from the pineal gland. I, this is just I'm postulating. I think there's more to the pineal gland than we understand. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It makes things other than melatonin. That's for sure. Yeah. And I think it's kind of elusive, but I think there's something to it.

1:28:18And I say that having used a lot of pineal on with people over the years and having very similar responses, which is awesome. Like everyone knows, like you said, when you sleep better, your entire day is better. When you sleep better, your life is better. Like exponentially better. I think of the millions of people that suffer from lack of rap and eye movement sleep, the lack of neuroplasticity that can be the consequence of that, the lack of healthy removal of emotional labels on previous day memories that is the consequence of REM deprivation, the enormous impact on depression rates, the enormous impact on pretty much every mental health issues made worse by by lack of REM sleep.

1:29:05So I say or I raise this conversation about pineal gland with a little bit of trepidation because I do worry that on the one hand, people will see it as a miracle drug. That's not what we're talking about. It has this effect. But at the same time, I, okay, I'll just say that, you know, there's another drug that was released recently. This is a FDA approved drug in the category of sleep drugs called the Dora's. So it works a little differently. It doesn't push on the sleepiness system, so to speak. It suppresses the wakefulness system and the idea is that it's supposed to increase REM sleep. It was by name quivivic and things like that.

1:29:42I tried it. Was it total disaster for me. Wow. I fell asleep, woke up three hours later, couldn't fall back asleep. I tried it with lower dosage. It's extremely expensive as well. So I'm going to piss off whoever makes quivivic. I forget who makes it. It was a complete disaster for me. Yeah. Pineal gland has been incredible. And here's what's really interesting about it to me is that it seems to improve my sleep on the nights when I don't take it, which makes total sense if it indeed is providing some regeneration of the pineal pineal sites that make melatonin and other. It sounds like it's me.

1:30:16Yeah. So here we're talking about something that one could potentially pulse with now and again and improvement and sleep every night. Yes. Yeah. Wild. Yeah. And it's, I mean, I think it's worth noting that you also take care of your health on many other aspects. And that's probably why you are sensitive to it. I worked really well for you, right? And some other people it's going to take longer. You know, if they're, you know, having to work on their diet and having to work on their exercise and having to work on their thought patterns. We don't talk about that enough having positive thoughts.

1:30:46But yeah, it's been, it's so safe. We've never ever seen. I mean, I never, ever have seen a side effect or negative side effect from pineal gland. It's, and, and your response has been uniform. You know, people don't always get there as quickly, but people get there with their sleep. And you compound it with glycine. Yeah. What's the rationale there? I really like glycine as an inhibitory neurotransmitter. It's coming to the nervous system over the years. I tend to start with that when people are having trouble settling down at night. Not that it's going to sedate people, but just transitioning from, you know, being active, you know, 8 p .m.

1:31:239 p .m. wanting to settle down glycine pretty large dosages at least most people think they are starting with 3000 or 5000 milligrams orally. Kind of turns down the nervous system. People relax a little bit and then they tend to sleep better from it. And then you can dial it up. I mean, I've used very large dosages where the other advantage of glycine is it works on face to liver detoxification, which is amino acid conjugation. So you're helping your liver work better. And in a world where we're being exposed with all these toxic things from glyphosate to heavy metals, we all need to do some sort of, you know, liver mitigation strategies.

1:32:00Glycine is one of the best. Wow. Interesting. We haven't done it episode of this podcast yet on heavy metals, but we're I'm very interested in this because many people write to me asking about metal toxicity and about mold toxicity. Molds become super big. Yeah, big. Yeah, I mean, it's very prevalent and it seems the more we talk about it, I mean, we've seen it for years and years and years. It makes sense, right? Like if you think about the amount of airplanes flying above us every day, pouring down heavy metals. I mean, it's massive. It's in the air. It's in the water. It's in the soil. You talk about glyphosate around up same exact thing.

1:32:37So many chemicals and it's challenging for us as humans. The way I break it down, not to get too far topic is, you know, we're water -civil organisms living in a fat -civil world. It's the job of our liver essentially to take the fat -civil stuff, make it water -civil so we can excrete it, right? And that takes place in liver in two phases, phase one, we're using the P450 enzymes, like taking the trash, putting the trash and trash can't put out the side of the road, and you have phase two amino acid conjugation, the trash truck comes and picks up the trash. Very few things in nature induce phase two independent of phase one, meaning most of us have trash piled up on the side of our road.

1:33:13Those things are the polyphenols, right? So things like the blues, the reds, the pigments, that's why it's important to eat a wide variety of colors in your diet. Mata tea, you know, has a very strong inducing effect on phase two liver act. Is that right? Yeah. I need to develop a taste for Mata. Yeah. I feel like it's kind of grainy. It is, and it's bitter. Yeah. But bitter things tend to be, you know, again, helping that phase two. Glutathion helps phase two. You know, we do a lot of that intravenously, and then glycine. It's a wonderful agent for inducing phase two independent of phase one, and the trouble is, I don't think people realize, you know, people are told, you know, most pharmaceuticals induce AP for 50 enzyme, and a misconception is, well, if I'm just inducing one, I'm good.

1:33:55If you induce one, you induce them all. So if you take any pharmaceutical, you're inducing your entire P450 system. You're speeding it up, meaning you're putting more trash out on the side of the road. And if you look at the amount of things we're being exposed to outside of pharmaceuticals, it's mounting. It's crazy. On the side of the road, you know, in the liver. Yeah, that's what I'm just using that as a metaphor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not just about excreting it in the, you're talking about building up of debris, cellar debris with it, or excuse me, metabolic debris within your body. Right.

1:34:26The trash, again, very oversimplification, you need to speed up phase two to get the trash trucks come to pick up the trash so that you can then take that compound and excrete it in your stool and your urine, your sweat, your breath. Right. I mean, it's the only way it works. It's not complicated per se, but I think there's a lot of misconceptions about it. So when people take a peptide that's injectable pineal and glycine, they're getting glycine, obviously, but for, let's say somebody doesn't have access to you or to, for whatever reason, yeah, there's a barrier to getting a hold of those peptides.

1:34:59Can people take glycine orally? They can. Yeah, glycine's absorbed well orally. It's a really sweet taste. It's actually the smallest amino acid. A huge fan of it, we've been using it a long time. You can take big dosages of it. Very sweet. Again, my starting dose is usually three to five grams at bedtime. Wow. And then I tell what my, the way I do this recommended is try that for a few nights in a row, not noticing a thing, double the dose, go to 10 grams literally. Most people at 10 grams of glycine will notice it. And again, it's not going to nestly make you drowsy. You're not going to be sedated, but your nervous system's going to be toned down a little bit, it's going to help you fall asleep a little bit better.

1:35:34And then while you sleep, where a lot of this detoxification process starts working, you're going to be more efficient in how your liver works. And everything ties together. Right. I'm still still a big fan of things like magnesium three and eight apogenin, which is a chemo mild derivative. And I'll try glycine. I think a few years back, I was, I was using a little bit of glycine, but it was more like a thousand milligrams. But now that it's in the injectable peptide, the pinealin, I don't take it. Is there an oral form of pinealin that works? There's these bio regular bio regulator peptides, which were developed by this Russian scientist, last name Corvinson, I think done a lot of research actually.

1:36:17There's published research about it. I think Penielon's one of the ones that they say will survive the stomach acid and get through the gut and be absorbed. So I think that's true. We've always used injectable and I tend to like injectable things for the bioavailability. So yeah, but to your point, I think people can't, those are going to be harder and harder to find actually. It's probably easier to find an injectable pinealin than an oral one. Yeah. And as we're talking about the summarizing, what unfortunately, just the way the internet works that people are going to start selling likely as a consequence of this conversation will start selling pinealin.

1:36:54But you need to know that you're actually getting pinealin. I mean, it's very easy for somebody to just pop something up on it. Totally. Amazon and sell it. And maybe they just throw some melatonin in there and call it pinealin. Like there's a lot of like BS stuff out there. So that's why the compounding pharmacy compounding and working with a physician. Yeah. And just in researching, right, making sure that what you're taking is legit. A lot of illegitimacy out there. Do you think the pharmaceutical companies are going to move into these other peptides? I mean, that you certainly, uh, Epimor Allen for the reduction in a visceral body fat.

1:37:27That's an FDA approved drug. Um, so is Somor Allen FDA approved drug. Um, uh, the GLP one agonist FDA approved drug. So those are the FDA is unlikely to pull those. But they're blockbuster. Um, it's especially with GLP one. I mean, they're making of not even a small fortune, but a large fortune. Big money. The, the concern in part about the GLP ones is, uh, to me is what we're starting to see they've been able to be compounded because there was a shortage. And the way it works with compounding pharmacies because those are brand name drugs and they're not patented for the peptide, right? They're patented for the delivery system, which is the pen, um, which most people don't realize.

1:38:09And they've been able to be compounded and then way more affordable because they're compounded. Um, and there is rumors that the pharmaceutical companies now have supply back. They'll come back and they will, you know, remove the ability to allow these peptides to be compounded, which means we'll have to stick to traditional dosages and people lose access because they're going to be way more expensive. I mean, they are, if you, insurance doesn't cover it, 1500 a month for, for most people. Very expensive. That's a lot. Yeah, for a lot of people that's rent and more. So, uh, I'm hopeful that doesn't happen.

1:38:46Um, but that's, that's in the works. That's in the works. And, and that would be a huge shame. And again, I'm not a, uh, pessimist by any means I'm a perpetual optimist. So we'll just, we'll just make sure that stays this way. But, you know, again, if it does happen, we'll get creative and, and go other routes as well. Um, earlier you mentioned stem cell therapies. Yep. Those are not FDA approved in this country. They are actually they, you can, you can use it by mistake. Yeah. So, uh, I think that using the term stem cell is a problem, right? If we use the term autologous cell, right? Which would be PRP.

1:39:21It's basically the same thing. Right. Take your blood. They spend down. They take the right. And so the ruin is I understand it. As long as you're taking a cell that from you and you give it back within four hours, then that is allowed with under the FDA guidelines. Interesting. There was this clinic in, um, Florida a few years ago was, um, touting stem cell therapies for macular degeneration injected some stem cells into these patients eyes and they went blind really quickly and they were not blind prior to the injections. That to my understanding caused a severe setback to the whole field. Um, I'm old enough to remember when gene therapy was set back by about 10 years because a patient received gene therapy, um, which is now pretty common for certain diseases and the patient died.

1:40:14It's unclear exactly why they died. But that delayed the field of gene therapy by at least a decade. I mean, this country is very conservative when it comes to the approval of new therapies. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I think, um, like anything, there's going to be people who get too aggressive amount. I've heard of doctors injecting stem cells into people's discs and then they get discitis and infection and that can just spiral very quickly. I think it's, you got to be reasonable and, you know, what you're trying to accomplish. I'm excited about stem cells and exosome therapy and PRP and PRF and using them as, you know, kind of biologics and, um, because I think there's a lot to learn.

1:40:56I think we only know very little, um, from what we've seen from working with our patients, it's been tremendous from a rejuvenation standpoint. I mean, from your own, you know, and then giving back your own within how the FDA outlines it, I think that's great way to do it. Well, certainly you have the clinical, uh, clinical data, um, to back those statements. Phymasin alpha one. Uh, what is this peptide? But maybe before we discuss it, did the FDA nuke thymacin alpha one? They sure did. Whoa. Okay. They're coming through with a, with a howitzer and taking out all these peptides. Um, okay. Um, well, then let's keep this relatively brief.

1:41:34What, what was thymacin alpha one being used for previously? Yeah. I think it was, uh, from my observation, the best peptide for immune modulation. So we would use it, uh, if you had an overactive immune system like autoimmune disease by definition, if someone has an autoimmune disease, there means their immune system is attacking their own self, right? That's classically looped, from a total arthritis, things like that celiac disease, type one diabetes, those are all, you know, autoimmune diseases. We could use thymacin alpha one and we tone down the immune response. We'd also use it a lot in post -COVID where you have an abnormal immune response, or the immune system hasn't caught back up and you can kind of dial it up using thymacin alpha one and a very safe way.

1:42:14Use it a lot with long COVID. Um, and we were using 5 ,000 micrograms a day. Um, sometimes intravenously getting great results. Very safe. Had no issues with it. Um, but unfortunately it's off the table. I hear a lot of complaints about brain fog with long COVID. Um, um, and brain fog generally. Um, cerebral lysin is a very interesting compound. Um, my understanding is that cerebral lysin is available in Europe more broadly than it is in the US. Is it still available here? To the FDA. Is it taking out? Okay. All right. cerebral lysin made the cut. Yeah, I made the cut. We'll see what happens after this podcast.

1:42:55That's right. Um, we've used a lot of cerebral lysin. Um, we actually have a clinic that's open in London. We actually did use it. Uh, we've used it a lot more over there than over here. So you have a US clinic in a, in a UK. We have a one in based in London and in one in Charleston. Yeah. And um, I think, you know, cerebral lysin has been used for decades in the setting of, you know, post stroke, um, post traumatic brain injury. The trouble with it again, I've observed with people. They get cerebral lysin. We're talking about IV. You can also use it subcue. Is they will have a day or two where they feel really down and out.

1:43:29Like it's like their mood shifts to like this dark place. Um, scary. Yeah. And they come out of it. Um, but most people don't like that feeling. And so we just, we stopped using it mostly. Yeah. For that reason, my understanding is that cerebral lysin is a kind of a cocktail of brain derived, neutrophic factor, celery, neutrophic factor, like some other thing is it's, it's not one thing. Yeah. And I think, right. And I think, I think collectively it increases BDNF levels. Right. Like, uh, there was dihexaturion on your femurion dihexat. It's another one that was removed by the FDA. Uh, supposedly the most potent way to increase, you know, brain derived, neutrophic factor is kind of the juice the neurons live in again, oversimplification.

1:44:13That's gone. But I think cerebral lysin did the same thing. Interesting. So as long as we're talking about, um, maintaining or boosting cognitive function, yeah. Um, here's one I've never tried. Okay. Um, but you and I have talked a little bit about. And, uh, it, it's still seen as kind of renegade, but it's becoming more commonplace. Um, and that's methylene blue. Yeah. And I always make the joke, uh, that I used to use methylene blue to clean my fish tanks. Right. Um, cause I was a, I'm a big, uh, fish tank of fissinato. At least I was when I was a kid. Right now I don't, my, have a tank, but it's, it's, it's empty.

1:44:46Um, no pun intended. Um, what is methylene blue? Yeah. And what are people using it for? And does it turn your tongue blue? It does for sure. Um, not permanently. Not permanently. It's actually the, uh, the first pharmaceutical ever prescribed in this country in the late 1800s was methylene blue goodness here. So it sounds like really renegade, but it's not. Got it. Yep. Um, but it's, it's gained favor in the last five years. That's certainly when we learned about it, particularly, you know, I learned about it through this doctor who was telling me with COVID patients, he was getting immediate, like, within a day, uh, of stopping of COVID symptoms from using methylene blue.

1:45:26That's what like, peak my interest like, wow, that's incredible. And then he went on to say that then COVID test returning negative within a matter of like two days, which was unheard of. I've seen that with something else, but I'll get back to that. Yeah. And so that's when I was like, oh, this is, you know, it started to be talked about and learned about it. Um, so methylene blue, when we talk about the mitochondria, using that mitochondrial membrane, by and society of chromacy oxidase. And I think of it, you know, traditionally it's used when people have carbon binoxide poisoning. They'll still use it.

1:45:52You go and they were answering your carbon monoxide poisoning. It'll give you methylene blue and it helps your red blood cells displace the carbon dioxide and put oxygen there. And so you're, it's an oxygenator. That's how I think of it. Is it used as a performance enhancing drug and in, uh, endurance sports? Cause this sounds like the kind of thing that cyclists would, would really want to use. Check with your local governing body. There's always a question I get. People like are they hear something in the podcast and they go, can I take it or am I going to get disqualified? And I always say, I have no idea if you'll get disqualified.

1:46:22Yeah. I don't believe it's on the water list. Okay. I don't believe we don't just look for the people with the blue tongues. Yeah. Yeah. Easy tests. So, um, methylene blue very well absorbed very well orally. You know, I think of it like NAD, the molecule on AD because it works on that, you know, on the site of Crohn's different than NAD though, because NAD is not, if you're taking NAD by itself, not absorbed orally well at all. It's one of the trouble with it. Methylene blue is and actually you can take way bigger dosages orally than intravenously. We've given it intravenously a lot, but we're limited and using it intravenously just because it'll start to cause some spasm of the vein.

1:46:57The arm starts hurting if you're giving too much methylene blue either too much or too quickly. And so we can give it orally. You can get a capsule of it. That's how we are for synergies. So I think a good dose is no more than 10 milligrams. 10 milligrams. Yeah. Taking when? In the morning, it is, you know, it's a cognitive stimulant for sure. I mean, I've had more people over the last five years because we make methylene blue. We combine it with some other agents, a little bit of caffeine, some B vitamins. And people say this is the best thing from, you know, my brain function recall memory and I quote unquote, new trope.

1:47:29It could a term I don't really like because yeah, you know, there aren't circuits for being smart. There are circuits for yeah, past which I said, but yeah, so it's 10 milligrams of methylene blue combined and you've got some other things in the cocktail version that you make. Taking in the morning on an empty stomach. Yeah, I you could take it with food though. Again, it's going to be well absorbed. It will, it's interesting to people and I need to say it will turn your urine green or blue for how long? And about 24 hours depending and kind of fun. Yeah. Well, and a good caveat is if it doesn't and I have patients, then that's interesting to me as a clinician because it means that your mitochondria is not working well, right?

1:48:04The way I see this is you should get spill over. You shouldn't kind of use it all. And if you're not, there's something wrong there that you're using all of it and you're getting no spill over back into your bloodstream, which gets filtered into your bladder, your urine, which you urinate out. And that's happened with the complications. So it's like, oh, wow, you had no green or blue urine. There's a problem with your mitochondria. So it's putting more oxygen onto the blood cells? Correct. Like your hemoglobin is able to pick up more oxygen. That's exactly right. But then there's the, you know, a mild MAOI inhibitor, which is going to weigh me in oxidizing.

1:48:41Yeah. Which will allow things like serotonin to work a little bit longer in that synaptic cleft. You know, and you've expounded way better than I can about serotonin and dopamine and how those work. But there is a cognitive enhancement from it for sure. It's very real. And we have a lot of people using it and love it. It also seems to be an antiviral. You know, you get this again, that's probably through the mitochondria making your mitochondria more efficient. It's a prescription drug. It's a prescription drug, but there's there's now and I don't totally understand it. There's now strictly over the counter neutracidical supplement options that are methylene blue.

1:49:20For sure. Anyone can go online and buy it. For sure. And trust me now that they're going to be a few. And you talked about turning your mouth blue. If you take a liquid form, right? And we'll do that sometimes in the office when we're doing other treatments, we'll give a big dose of methylene blue to kind of help fuel, kind of quickly make a lot of ATP, which we want to do with some different IV treatments we do. So we'll give sometimes up to 50, 5, 0 milligrams at a time. Their gums, teeth, lips are blue for about an hour or two. And how often can people take methylene blue? Again, you could take it every day.

1:49:59I think it's a little bit longer acting. I don't take it every day. I take it about three times a week. I think it's about right. I do have people who need it more, you know, for whatever they're dealing with. I do think, you know, as a nutrient, if we're going to call it that, it's a lot of it's an insurance policy for your mitochondria. So earlier you mentioned a patient, or maybe it was patients, plural, that experienced a more rapid transition out of a COVID infection, or maybe more recovery from long COVID symptoms, etc. It reminded me of the second time I got COVID, far less intense than the first time.

1:50:45But the second time I got COVID, I had an amazing experience where my COVID test was very strong band. It was very clear. I had COVID. There was no question about it. I didn't feel good. I was fatigued. Wasn't super severe. I would put it kind of on a six out of 10 on the kind of malaise level. No fever. Okay. So I stayed in bed and stayed away from people. This sort of thing. But I did an NAD infusion. Of course, told them I had COVID. They came over. They gave me an NAD infusion. And correlation is not causation. But I think it was 750 milligram NAD infusion over the course of about 45 minutes.

1:51:30I had the usual feelings that one gets when you get an NAD infusion of you feel like an elephant is stepping on your legs. Your chest got cramped. So you feel and then when that stops, you feel much better than you go into the thing. The band was absent the next day. My symptoms were I went from I don't want to say gone. I went from you know, like a five six out of 10 as I mentioned to like a two out of 10. And within another 48 hours, I was good to go and better. Now, this is correlation not causation. I don't know what was going. It could have been the saline bag, right? It could have been any number of things.

1:52:10But the shift from a dark band to no band was so dramatic that I took another test after the no band. And then of course the next day and the next day, you know, this kind of thing. It's interesting. I don't know what it means. But one wonders whether or not it's just a global way of combating inflammation. You know, I just sort of want to tell me thing about a systemic effect. And the reason I raise this is that I don't want to give the impression that I think that like NAD is specifically in the pathway that was targeted. But that my brain and body were inflamed clearly. I had an infection. So you don't you you could have a flu.

1:52:51You could have a cold. You're inflamed. What are your thoughts on that anecdote? Again, it's just anecdote. But what are your clinical reflections? We've seen it so many times. Yeah. I mean, for the longest time. And so we've been using NAD longer than most. I'm fortunate that I was given the original NAD infusion protocol, which came from Mexico. It's kind of a long story. I don't want to bore you. But that dose is to 750 milligrams is actually what we came up with in my office. And that's what most people adopted just because we've used it more than probably anyone else on the planet. Huge fan of NAD.

1:53:27Very biased. But that's only because I've seen it work over and over and over in inexplicable scenarios, just like you're describing where it's not just you go from A to B, but you're going to A to Z very quickly. And I used to use the word transformational talking about it. Not just okay, going from a six state to a well state. But in most people going from a well state to a super well state, really quickly. And it's super impressive. So there's a lot more to NAD than we understand, right? Because just very empirically giving someone this coenzyme, this vitamin B3 derivative, how is it dramatically changing symptomatically how someone feels?

1:54:12But it does. And I've seen it with thousands upon thousands of people certainly in the setting of COVID, certainly in other bioimpactions, you name it. I have been more impressed with the work of NAD than probably any other agent we've ever used. Amazing. Yeah, I take sublingual NMN each day. It makes my hair grow ridiculously fast. I've done the control experiments. I'm a scientist. I know how to control experiments. It's still just N of one. It's just me. Makes my nails grow really fast. Makes my hair grow fast. Yeah, that's the major consequence. Yeah. I don't, by the way, I want to be clear, I don't have any stake in any company that sells NAD or NAD infusion.

1:54:47So I'm just reporting what I'm reporting. I think it's great. Somebody who's quite expert in the NAD pathway, Charles Brenner, yeah, who I believe has a relationship to a company that makes NR supplements. I think that's NR supplements. This is what it's NAD minus a phosphate group is more understanding. And those I took orally, I couldn't tell if I got the same or different effect because I was taking them together. I didn't continue to take them because compared to NMN, it was very expensive. Yeah. And I just stopped taking it. So that's why I use sublingual NMN. But in brief discussions with Charles and how the affords online, it seems that there is some literature, human clinical literature showing that NR can reduce inflammation.

1:55:41Is that right? Yeah. Sure. Okay. Less data that NMN can reduce inflammation. At least lack of human studies. Right. Okay. So we're still kind of in the, it's still murky, murky foggy territory with with respect to the research and clinical biochemistry. Yeah. And like, what does the biochemistry do? And the way I think about it again, because we kind of pioneered the infusions, the NAD drips, which for me, transformational just observing lots of people who I never saw the same thing with NMN and R. You know, you're not having these transformational experiences within a week. You know, I tell the story a lot is I had a patient.

1:56:19He was diagnosed with a chronic Epstein bar virus, which is rare, but it does exist. He was depressed and on disability, just because he couldn't almost get out of bed. This is mono. But it was reactivation about C. Bar. Yeah. Yeah. And so very like fatigued and depressed and literally on disability couldn't work. And he, I said, before we do anything, I, the way I operate is I want him to get you feeling better first before we start to tackle some of the bigger things. We, we did the loading dose of NAD, which we came up with the five treatments in 10 days, came back to my office as wife was there.

1:56:51She was crying. She goes, then a week my husband is back. Wow. And I've seen that so many times with NAD. And I can't explain it, right? And I, and if I just stick to the biochemist, doesn't make sense to, oh, you're increasing the NAD NAD H ratio, fueling the mitochondria, which are all over body, thousands per cell, there's something that we just told, there's, there's got to be outside the mitochondrial effect of NAD that's not well understood. So in the backdrop of our conversation today, there've been a number of themes, but one of the themes that seems to keep coming up is that there are a lot of things about medicine that we don't understand.

1:57:23Totally. And yet there are tools that seem to work for certain people extremely well. A few years ago, I went to a meeting, this is a foundation meeting, a foundation I was a part of, where you get to see talks from really the best of the best laboratories, and they only show unpublished data. And at the time, I don't know if this paper is published yet, but at the time, they were showing that they took people that were diagnosed with major depression. Okay. And they start doing a bunch of metabolomics on them. Okay. Now this sounds pretty standard for social media. It's actually pretty, it was like pretty heretical, like not a lot of places have done this right.

1:58:03So, you know, a couple thousand patients, blood draws, they're trying to figure out, they ask a simple question, are there any specific vitamin deficiencies that are associated with depression? And as I recall, they identified a few different types of vitamin deficiencies. So it's not like one vitamin. It's not always methylated B6 or something like that, or excuse me, it's not always B6 or B12. But they found these clusters of patients that had major depression, that were deficient in particular B vitamin. They supplemented back the B vitamin and low and behold, those patients showed remission of their depression.

1:58:39So one could conveniently conclude, oh well, all depression is a B vitamin deficiency, but of course that's not true, right? More likely depression like fever is just a raw description of symptoms. Right. But what was so exciting about this talk to me anyway, was that people were starting to look at nutritional deficiencies as a potential source of mental illness, which now has a bit more traction, but at the time was like, whoa, what are we really saying here? I thought all of depression was a serotonin deficiency, right? This kind of thing. So when you talk about NAD, having these transformative effects, in the fact that NAD can kind of raise the tide on a number of different biological processes, to me it makes perfect sense.

1:59:19It might have kicked off some mitochondrial pathway or some cellar pathway that then fills in a blank that's desperately needed. Is that one way that we can conceptualize this? That makes total sense to me. Okay. I'd like I described it. So how often do you encourage your already healthy patients to do NAD infusions? What are the dosages? I should mention the NAD infusions. For most people are a little bit costly. They are costly. They're like anywhere from 500 to $1 ,000 or more. Yeah, more more. Yeah. If you're in Los Angeles. So assuming someone has the means. Yeah. So here's what we found.

1:59:53And again, just found it by treating a lot of people and learning is we do a loading dose. For most people, we found the sweet spot to be 750 milligrams intravenous. Intravenous. When they when they were doing NAD in the 90s and they were doing it for substance abuse. So alcohol, pain medicine, morphine. They used it for that. That's where it came from. Actually, it was in the 90s. People traveling to Mexico for NAD infusions. That protocol was 10 straight days of intravenous NAD. Yeah. The dose that used was 3 ,000 milligrams. 3 ,000 milligrams. Yeah. That's why it took 6 to 8 to 10 hours per infusion.

2:00:29You could not get through it. Putting 500 milligrams in over the course of 45 minutes is giving me very uncomfortable. Many people take it into nausea, Med. So I'll tell you about that. So that comes from so there was a gentleman in the States in 2006 lived in Louisiana. He had a pain medicine addiction. Went to Mexico, got the NAD protocol changed his life. He then licensed the use of the only injectable NAD product, which was from a South African company at the time, brought it to the United States, opened a clinic in Atlanta. All he did was addiction. And I got to know him was I'm in Charleston, not too far involved in IV work.

2:01:04He was not a physician. I don't remember the time, but he came to me and said, hey, I need some help because I'm getting a lot of questions about this NAD stuff. And so he handed me the original protocol. I'm super grateful and fortunate. But what I realize is no one has time to spend 6 to 8 to 10 hours in someone's office. They may do that once, but they're not doing it more than once. So we started trialing different doses, just 250, 550 ,000 on up. And I just found collectively by watching people, and I did 750 milligrams, it was a sweet spot, meaning they'd get the benefits, which we can talk about, but then they could get through it in an hour or two hours.

2:01:42And that was meaningful. And then we found that we don't need 10 straight days. That's too much. That just is crazy. We found that five treatments in 10 days, again, afforded people the ability to have great benefits, which were uniform, probably 95 % of people who do a loading disc will come back and tell you the brain is getting bigger. They feel more creative. They have an elevated mood. They can sleep less, but have more energy. Colors look brighter. Languageing is easier. I mean, this is all very real. So I think it affects the nervous system first, just because of the concentration of the mitochondria for every single neuron in the body.

2:02:15The physical components, meaning recovery and helping with physical exercise, those come, but I think they come later. And so we settled on 750 milligrams. We settled on the loading dose. And then what I noticed is that people are coming back between three and four weeks saying, hey, I don't feel as good as I did after I did that loading dose. And so we start doing a once a month maintenance dose. And that is what we still recommend to today. Some people will do less, and some people do more. I have some people who do it once a week. But plenty of people do it once a month, and then some people do it quarterly, some people do it whenever they can.

2:02:48On average, once a month seems to work really well for people. Then during the pandemic, and realizing this is growing, because again, we train practices kind of in the medicine that we practice, we trained 300, 350 practices, and kind of give them the playbook, so to speak. People weren't coming to the office as much with COVID, so we started doing it subcutaneously. And actually, that's worked out really well. We'll do 100 milligrams subcutaneously, again, five days on, take two days off. You get a little bit of that stomach cramping from a 100 milligram injection. Like you said, can't really be absorbed well orally.

2:03:22Not going to really work. So you're going to have to inject it or infuse it. Agreed. There's a price point here, right? It's going to cost money. But like most things, it's, you know, it's to me, if I had to pick one thing for people, engaging in NAD would be it. Really? Yeah, yeah. I would all the things we've discussed. All those things. I've just been so impressed over the years. Now, peptides are amazing. Not to not peptides, peptides. There's so many peptides and I will get there, right? Because you can take this peptide for the nervous system, this peptide for the immune system, but collectively, one agent, one thing it's NAD has been the most impactful from where I sit working with patients.

2:04:00Well, that's a significant statement. So 100 milligrams injected subcutaneously. Yeah, a little bit of stomach cramping. Yes. As compared to the 500 milligrams to 750 or thousand milligrams that one brings in IV, the fastest I've ever dripped it in was, I think, like 40 minutes. I can tell you the record. What's the record? Three minutes and 26 seconds. Is that you? No, no, no, no, no, no. For 500 milligrams, 750 milligrams. Two separate people did it. 500 cc is a saline. Three minutes, 26 seconds. It's insane. Yeah. I don't recommend it. No, no, we wouldn't allow it to happen. It's too much. It's, you've got to have a lot of experiences in here.

2:04:40Yeah. I found that because you have to sit there for a while, you could think, okay, well, you organized the plumbing correctly that you could type or something, but you feel it's hard. Garbage enough. It's throwing the infusion that you get irritable. It's actually a very interesting window into empathy for people who have pain. Totally. When you're in this whole body, kind of systemic pain and discomfort in you getting that saliva, I'm kind of sensing it now. I have a good distinct memory of this. Kind of like for people who get cc, you think about being on a boat and walking back and forth.

2:05:14Get a little nauseous. Someone would walk in the room and you're like, why are they walking like that? Right. And it's your own, it's your sense of pain. I normally don't have that response to people. I'm not a moody person in general. But then, when you remove the infusion, you feel great. And all of a sudden, people seem delightful. The irritating person. It's a very interesting experiment in social empathy. It is. This is just what I postulate is that a lot of people are challenged because a lot of people are numb to the world they live in. They don't feel things. And when you do NAD, there is nothing like that experience in that feeling.

2:05:53And so you are going to just psychologically say something is changing inside of me. And it's something powerful because it's when I receive it, it's a lot. And to your point, what we do is we have a kind of an IV room where we have like eight chairs and we make it social because when you're talking to people and learning about their experiencing, there's actually a lot of healing that occurs just from that community. That's a bonding experiment. It is. For people that can't afford the infusions, the injections would be the next best bet. If they can't afford those, would it be the sublingual NMN or NR?

2:06:26I think so. I think the NMN. I would choose over NR. Yeah. So going from most expensive to least expensive, most expensive and so it would be IV, then it would be subcutaneous, then it would be NR, and then it would be sublingual NMN. Yeah. That's about right. I mean, you could do at NAD, topically, it's a little bit wild car doing it topically. You could do it under your patch. The quadratic patches. Those give me a really terrible patch. I get this issue. It's too strong. Lots of people get irritated. Their skin gets irritated. I think the NAD gets in well, but the patch itself is a hindrance obstacle.

2:07:06For those that are listening to this, and they may recall I did episode of this podcast with Dr. Peter Tia, where we talked about NAD and NMN and NR. That was mainly focused on the research literature. You're not going to find much. What we're talking about here is clinical experience. Yeah. Full disclosure, I'm a clinician through so my experience is observing people. You're just in what works. I'm confident about it because I've done a lot of it. I've seen a lot of how peptides work because we've done a lot of it. This NAD, because we've overseen again a lot of NAD here in London all over and the providers we work with, so we get a lot of feedback about what works and doesn't work.

2:07:53Speaking of clinicians and science and all of this, there are a couple of other peptides that have received FDA approval that are commonly used, things like PT -141, which is in this melanostite hormone pathway that's used. One of its FDA -approved uses is, I think the female hypolabido. It stimulates libido and women. It's also used to stimulate libido and men. It can be helpful for a neurogenic mechanism for rectal dysfunction. It's not just related to blood flow. It's not. PT -141, a fragmented derivative of the peptide melanotan, which stimulates alpha -malanocytes, stimulating hormone, which is becoming more in play, I guess, in the environment.

2:08:49I operate in just because of mold toxicity. We think of mold toxicity being a biotoxin and hitting MSH being the general in terms of a lot of these hormonal pathways, actually. And melanotan can strip bolster by putting out more melanocytes. Stimulating hormone seems to bolster immune response. I think there's an element with energy, too. The downside of melanotan is it stimulates melanocytes, so you're going to get this tanning. It's like an orange -looking tanning from the inside out. Yeah, you see it. You recognize it. PT -141, what they found is in rats, I think it was, female rats were copulating more when they got this compound.

2:09:30They're like, oh, cool. Let's try it in humans. It's led to that. Our trouble with it is very narrow therapeutic window. And if you give too much, you're going to get nauseous pretty quickly. And some people don't like, particularly women, don't like that tanning look. It's not a very unnatural word. Yeah, the medial pituitary, which at least my understanding is the origin of these peptides that we're talking about now, is super interesting. And you mentioned the nausea. These peptides hit multiple pathways when we had Dr. Zachary Knight from University of California, San Francisco, on to talk about GLP1 in a lot of detail.

2:10:08He mentioned that some of the nausea associated with ozampic and mongerone, things like that relates to the fact that there were receptors for these things, not just in one hypothalamic structure, but also in area, like area poststrama, in areas of the brain that are these quote unquote primitive areas that are associated with generating nausea when you need to rid yourself of a poison. Nature conveniently engineered us with neurons that when they detect chemical changes in the blood, make us vomit. Yeah. And to touch on that is what we found is if we start with a, again, a microdose and go slowly with the GLP1s, the nausea is virtually unheard of.

2:10:47Not saying it doesn't occur, but it's super rare. If you just take your time with it, I think when people have most problems, they're doing they're shotgunning the dose, essentially. You're overwhelming your system. So I have two more questions. The first one is a bit of a controversial one. Okay. Today we've talked about a lot of peptides that you've observed, incredible clinical utility for. We also talked about a lot of peptides that the FDA has banned, basically, to be blunt. We've also talked about peptides that at one point not too long ago, we're considered part of kind of niche culture, like fitness or bodybuilding culture that are now approaching what will probably be trillion dollar industries over the next 10 years, things like GLP1 agonist.

2:11:35So any listener with their neurons firing will put two and two together and say, okay, what's the deal? Obviously the FDA, I like to believe, has a genuine interest in our safety. They don't want us taking things that are dangerous for us. At the same time, there seems to be a kind of clawing back of what's out there and then a handing off to pharmaceutical companies to put out compounds for which there are tremendous profit margins. I mean, the profit margins on these are insane. We can't comprehend it. We can't comprehend it. So, MK677, I crossed out, right? The FDA grabbed that one. Thomas and Alpha1 crossed out.

2:12:14Okay, a bunch of other things that have been BPC157 clawed back. So how should we frame this in our mind? In other words, do you think that the FDA is genuine good intentions of trying to protect the general public and that's why they're doing this? Or is this a plan to kind of make that appear to be the case so that these that can then be sold at a very, very high profit margin? And perhaps it could be both, right? It's not any either or. And I want to be very clear, I work at a major medical school, but I'll speak freely anyway, right? As would my colleagues, like I like to think that these governing bodies have some people there at least with very good intentions.

2:12:58I don't think it's a bunch of bad people like riding their hands together with getting kickbacks on the environment. I don't believe that. In fact, I know that not to be the case. But like what's really going on here? Because this is kind of weird. There's this huge class of compounds we call peptides that clearly have immensely beneficial uses in the right dosage, in the right hands, with the right physicians. They're being clawed back. Why? It's confusing. I think it's probably both. I think, you know, I would say that, unfortunately, a lot of times when the government acts, they overreach, right?

2:13:31Like I do think they probably have good intentions. I think there's probably sound reasons to want to have oversight of things that seemingly is the wild, wild west, right? And there's truth to that, right? Because peptides came on the scene, and people started using them. They're recommended here and there. People could get them from still can research companies. And there's not a lot of corralling of understanding, well, what is going on? So I'm sure there's an element to like, hey, let's understand this better. But on that side, I think they went too far, right? Because I think if you really look at data or if you were really interested in that, there's ways to understand how things work without removing them from the marketplace.

2:14:17So the other side of me is like, just like we're talking about, OZEMPIC and MANGERNO, Semiglutide and Terzeppetide are blockbuster drugs. If you're a pharmaceutical company, and you see that there's 15 to 20 other peptides, which are really working and really working, because again, we've just seen the clinical response over and over and over. It's not a large leap to think, hey, if we're a pharmaceutical company, what if we turn that peptide, which was available to the commoner for lack of a better term, into a drug like Vileci? That was done for Milana Stites, Simulating Hormone Pathways. And so I'm sure I think it's both.

2:15:01And that's why I go back to, we have to operate within certain boundaries. That's great. We have to understand those boundaries. It would be, and I say this sincerely, when we're talking about healthcare, we're talking about people's health, we're not even close to talking about the truth for most things. We're not talking about why people get chronic disease. We're not talking about how our food is really over processed and the availability of high quality nutrients and what that means. We're not talking about all the toxicities. We just look at Roundup, glyphosate, and its interference with so many pathways in the body and people say, you know, in Monsanto and whoever runs that now, saying it's so safe and it's just not true.

2:15:41So I think it's in line with, and what I support is unfortunately, and fortunately, as an individual, you have to be your own best advocate. You can't rely on someone to say, particularly the government that you have permission or not permission to do this. You think it's best for people to do their own research? You know, seek out reliable information, right? Start here. I mean, you guys vet so much stuff, very safe place for people to be like, this is where I want to start. And then life is, you learn by exploring and seeing what works for you. It's like you start with a recipe to cook, right?

2:16:15But some people like it's saltier, some people like it's spicier. You got to see what works best for you, and that's why I seek out other people, people like myself, other physicians, other people who have experienced saying, hey, we'll help you guide you in this. And that's where the magic happens. But to be honest, we're not being truthful in many levels when we talk about health. We're just not, we spend so much money for what? We're not making a dent in chronic disease. We're not making an impact. We're not helping people lead better lives. You know, medicine is great for life and death things.

2:16:49It really is. You know, I in 2000, in August of 2020, I had terrible abdominal pain. I just come back from visiting our friends in Hawaii. I kind of tried to treat myself unsuccessfully. I benchally was on Labor Day. I had so much pain the next day, called my friend, he was ready. I said, I need to do a cat scan. I did the cat scan. He called me on the way back to the office. I had a blood clot in the vein going to my liver that had completely cut off. I almost died. Like it was really serious. I could be hospitalized while in blood thinners. Now, I am forever grateful for pharmaceuticals save my life.

2:17:22But those same medicines aren't probably going to help me lead my best life. And it's challenging. Having been educated in a very formal conventional medical system, which is dominated by the pharmaceutical industry is a problem. We go back to the Flexner report, which is like 1917, 1915 or something, where they studied medical education and basically said, if you're a medical school and you're not promoting pharmaceuticals in in line, and we're going to kick out alternative remedies and modalities like chiropractic and acupuncture and nutrition, they don't count anymore. And that's where we are.

2:17:58The only thing that matters. And we see it as a society. We're deemed healthy by the pills we take. If we're going to be really honest, those pills aren't making us healthy. And by and large, they're not even making us well anymore. And so I think it's time. And it's wonderful to have this form to be able to talk about. And this is why I support so many other people talking about it. We need to make a change in that. We need to start being honest about what we're doing. Our health is not going to be coming from doctors saying taking this pill or that potion. It's not at this stage. And it's more likely that people are going to feel healthy from seeing their trainer in their gym.

2:18:34These things go to the gray market or black market. This people actually get results. And it's just sad but true. And so to answer your question, I think it's both. I think the pharmaceutical companies are greedy. I think they like making money. I think they also like helping people. They want to help people. But it comes with a big cost. And the government's there to kind of corral that. But most things the government does that go too far. And I think we need to be honest about those discussions. And it's not threatening. And it's not harmful. Just to be saying, Hey, how do we make this better?

2:19:08And how do we even agree to disagree? Let's just start there. I really appreciate your take. I too rely on prescription drugs now and again. I don't know. Maybe I'll lose some following for saying this. But like I've had some some situations where it made sense to like taking in a biotic like after surgery or something or like I'm not like anti antibiotics. Right. I also don't take I don't also don't eat them like M &Ms. I also believe that well, everything you said, I generally agree with I don't have the clinical expertise. So the nuance to really understand these governing bodies. That's one of the reasons why I'm asking today and really appreciate you shedding light on this.

2:19:48I think you're you're clearly a truth teller. You're telling us your truth from the clinical perspective. But it's clear you also have a broad broad optics here. And we appreciate that. Sure. Yeah. This podcast has always been about bringing diverse outlooks on the same things. And it's been wonderful today to be able to explore peptides and AD and and this issue of FDA approval and FDA removal as the case may be. You said something earlier a couple of times that I'd like to finish up on. Talk about positive thoughts. Yeah. You're a physician. Yeah. Not a psychologist. Yeah. But you're a physician.

2:20:30And you're in the business of making people feel better. And it's clear to me that among your many talents, you have great powers of observation. So what is this thing about positive thoughts? I mean, there are a lot of neuro immunological data out there showing that stress makes us sick. If we stress too long for you repeatedly for too long stress in the short period is actually good for us. Right. There are some data showing that positive thoughts can enhance immune system function, et cetera. The data are pretty cool. Clinically, however, what's your observation about mindset and health? I think we're just scratching the surface.

2:21:09And I think it is the most profound way to affect your life. Right. So there's a couple of things I'll say about it. One, no good has ever come from a negative thought. Nothing ever good has come from a negative thought. And because all of us have a choice about every decision we make. To me, it's always best to make a to slant that decision in a positive frame. Now, it doesn't mean you're fake about it, right? People really suffer. People really go, I mean, it is a very stressful time right now. Maybe the most stressful time in human history. And there's no need to gloss over it and saying life is, you know, peaches and cream because it's not for a lot of people.

2:21:51But what I know just personally and professionally is that when you start pivoting towards positivity, you get more positivity, right? And all of us, every single human has that opportunity to do that. That some people, it's way harder choices. They are dealt a much more challenging and difficult hand. Lots of people. But if we think about it, we didn't get to choose our eye color. We didn't just get to choose our family. We didn't get to choose where we were born or how we were brought up. But we do get to choose how we respond to those things. And so what I've learned is the more, there's never enough positivity I can exude.

2:22:25There's never enough positivity I can be around ever in my life. It is just the most amazing thing and it can never be taken from you, right? And so when we talk about success and longevity and health span, to me, positivity has to be a part of that because the mindset of positivity will override almost everything, literally. And I can't tell you how that happens on a biochemical or physiologic basis, but I know it to be a truth. I know it in the core of my being that the more positive I am, the more I can influence other people's and plant seeds and help people be more positive. And that is something that I cherish and just love and it's not talked about enough.

2:23:09You know, specifically as a physician, we're talking about the science and oh, this study and putting people on this medicine. But really the value and I made this decision back in 2010 because I had my own practice and I decided to stop taking insurance. And it wasn't it wasn't a money thing. It wasn't like, oh, it was because I was no longer valuable taking five to seven minutes with each person and seeing 40 patients today. And for me, I felt like I am not fulfilling my purpose here when I'm just writing prescriptions that my purpose will be fulfilled if I can really have conversations where I get to know people and peptides and NAD tie into that because they are gateways to build trust with me so that I can actually help you an individual learn how to be more positive and to slant yourself and have that posture.

2:23:59Because ultimately all of us need the energy and want the energy to find our purpose, right? And once you find that purpose, oh my goodness, life gets magical, right? Because we're all unique. We all have a different DNA structure. God gave us that to be unique, to shine our light, to contribute to help others. Most people don't know about that because they're in pain or they're tired or whatever they're suffering. And if we can help walk people through that and help them heal that, that's going to get really good. And that's that's just what I enjoy doing. I'm beautifully said. And so grateful to you for doing that within your clinical practice, for making that decision a few years back to shift over to being aligned with your purpose.

2:24:43The way that you've now expanded your practice to public education will provide links to your practice and to your public education efforts. And for coming here to do this significant public education effort about peptides and other compounds and regulatory bodies. And also just the field of medicine. And also just, you know, I think so often we hear from scientists or from physicians and we forget the human component. And what's so beautiful about what you do and the way you do it is that your humanity really comes through. I appreciate that. So it really does. I can tell you really care. And I know our listeners and viewers can tell us well.

2:25:26So thank you. As this field evolves and advances, please come back and talk to us again. I would love to. Meanwhile, again, we'll provide links so that people can find you and some of the resources that back up what we've discussed today and Craig, Dr. Connerver, thank you ever so much. Well, thank you, Andrew. No, it's really, I'm so honored to be here. I respect and love the work you're doing and the light you're shining and you're helping so many. You have such a wide audience that, you know, trust you and it's amazing. Like I said, I see it every day with people coming to me and bouncing what you do and saying, Hey, is this good for me?

2:26:06And it's that is amazing. I love that. That's how we get better, right? We help support each other. And I just appreciate what you're doing and being here is a truly an honor. Really a big deal for me. So thank you. Thank you. I'll take that in and right back at you. Okay. Come back again. I appreciate it. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Craig Connerver to learn more about his work and his clinic as well as to find links to some of the things discussed in today's episode. Please see the show note captions. And if you'd like to learn more about peptides, including some of the ones that we discussed today, but also some additional ones, please see the link to the solo episode that I did about peptide therapies in the captions.

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2:27:14I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre -sale at ProtocolsBook .com. There you can find links to various vendors.

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2:29:00Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Craig Conover. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.