The Science & Art of Comedy & Creativity | Tom Segura

23:24In other words, we're talking and I say something. And I either go like, oh, I should say that on stage. Or I just find that I'm naturally riffing on it and like making you laugh. And then I go, I should try that on stage because everything is like, it's either, it's funny here. Is it funny there? That's kind of like how your mind operates, right? Like, I, this is funny in this context. Is it funny in the performing context? But when you're trying new material, you're not doing that for a Netflix special. You're doing that in the term working out like you go to, you work, go to the comedy club on a Tuesday night and you're working out trying new material, seeing how it lands.

24:03You've never, is what you're saying that you've never actually built out the, the bit you're building it out in real time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoa. Yeah. That's typical of, I think there's like, there's different, you know, camps of it, right? Like also, there's different so many different standup is so popular that there's all these different styles. And, and like, you know, there's like, set up punch guys. Like what you would call almost like pure joke writers, Sam Morill, David Tell, Mark Norman, those guys, I feel like dude, they do a lot of like, here is like, it's the economy of words. It's like clear premise set up and then boom punch line.

24:45So it'd be like, like, I'm thinking about Norman, right? I won't try and do one of his jokes, but I like, like, Norm's comedy, skateboarder too. Same non biological first family. So he, I've heard him do things like, so my wife and I were on vacation recently, this kind of thing. Like, set up where it's very clear. I mean, he clearly knows where he's going with this. Yeah, vacation and we picking out rooms and then, and then at some point, there's a, there's a punch line pivot. Right. Okay. So there's like, some of those are, especially when you, when you feel like they're quite short, if it's like a, it's like over quickly, that's going to, a lot of times be something that you knew.

25:25I'm going to say it exactly like this. It's like the most traditional form of a joke. Here's the set up. Here's the punch line. And like, I've written jokes like that in, in stand up, but I do a lot more, you know, long form, I think, like storytelling stuff. And so, you know, to write that all out, I feel like you almost, you almost get in your own way, because you're just like, you, you, you, right. Because then what happens is what you write and what you say that it's never quite the same. So you, you kind of go through what you think is funny about what happened. And then you take that on stage.

26:00And then you take that on stage and maybe in a room with like 80 or 100 people. And then, you know, that's the nice thing about stand up is you learn right away. If that shit is funny or not, like, people are laughing hard. And you're like, and that's what's such a rush because you go, this was an idea. This thing happened. You try it. It works. It's like, it's a really reform feeling. And then if it doesn't, you know, that's when like kind of the, I guess, like the, the real work of it comes in because then you're trying to figure out you're like, especially if you're like married to the idea, if you're like, this is funny, but it didn't work.

26:33So then you start thinking about, did I, is there not enough information for it to work? Is that the problem? Is there too much? Because we always say like trim the fat. Like if you, if you have too much stuff in there that is not getting laughs. It's like maybe just omit some of this information. Right. So that becomes like, okay, I'll go back and instead of saying this is like useless information. It's not adding to what's funny or whatever. It's not adding to the story. I'm telling you start dropping that. And so you start experimenting. And then sometimes you just get into like, okay, is the actual line that I'm saying.

27:08The problem is it is that that's not a good enough joke line. And then you start experimenting with that. And then sometimes you figure it out, which is again, like such an amazing feeling where you go, this used to not work. And now it works. And then sometimes you just got to go, fuck man, it's just that work. You just have to abandon it. Yeah. If something works or you feel like it's beginning, it's the start of a thread that could work. And you end up writing it down for later, like you're queuing yourself. Like, you know, the walk with my son bit or something like that. Or it's all in your head.

27:41Well, you kind of have it all in your head. And then I was going to show you like, I have this that's all I'll look at this like before I go on stage. Right. Which is like Tom showing we can get a photo of this if he lets us it's a bunch of Sharpie written single words. Yeah, get mo jail, teacher duck, Huberment just kidding. I just kill my wife. Yeah, it's like so those like Hitler, Tunisia makes it. This is amazing. Yeah, that's that's that's a set list for the for an hour. If you think about the range of things in this relatively short list. Yeah. As a partial representation of what goes on in Tom sigur as brain, you get a little.

28:26Well, what's interesting is like I with another way like I think comedians would look at it is you kind of start to go. These are 15 minute chunks. When you do an hour, a lot of comics think of it as four 15 minute chunks. Right. So you go like, OK, this is kind of like setting the table chunk. This is like a kid's family chunk. This is, you know, commentary on social issues or like things that I'm doing or consuming. And then your last chunk is like, I always feel like you want to get into like your some of your more, I don't know, wilder takes like after the audience has gotten to know you. I trust you.

29:12They're like, OK, so that way you can kind of like push it more the further into the set you are. Yeah. So he's kind of break it down. Yeah, very different, but I've done some lives and I have a, you know, for things I'm going to cover and then, but I don't know how I'm going to cover them. Jordan Peterson, when he goes out for his lives, I've been to them. He literally explores a topic in real time, walking back and forth across the stage for the first time. I know this because people verified that every night he does something different even the same city. Yeah, he's exploring it completely in real time.

29:41And then other people's lives that I've been to, it's clear it's pretty scripted. They know exactly what they're going to say and when they have a sequence, they have slides. And so I think it can be done in any different number of ways. How long do you go during your waking hours without making or thinking of a joke? You know, that's a good question. I really feel like when you ask me that question, you know, the first person that I think of is actually Rick Rubin. And this is why I was, I remember reading that book he put out creative act. And he was like, there's something about, I'm paraphrasing here, but about like having your antenna up.

30:18Like in other words, you still put out some part of you puts out the signal, so to speak, that you're not like going, I need to find something funny. But you're putting your brain in the mode of that, right? And you can also choose not to. And I think there's times where you go like, oh, I haven't thought of anything like, I haven't looked at anything with like a humorous perspective today. Or for whatever, how many hours? And it's almost like that can shift either by you consciously making an effort to do it or by the company you keep because like obviously if you're hanging out with comedians, people is like just by being around them, your brain just shifts to like joke mode.

31:05You know what I mean? Like you're just, you're thinking in in those terms or if you're working on something like you're writing like writing a script or something, your brain is like actively, even when you're not trying to it's like thinking of that story and thinking of jokes for the story. So the answer is like, you know, depending on the day, it can be like all day, you're just like joking, joking, joking. And like you're just in my case, like, you know, saying mostly like awful things because that's what makes me laugh, I think. You know what I mean? Like whether it's with friends or family, just like trying to make yourself laugh really.

31:42And then there's days where it's like, you know, you're in like a completely serious mindset where you're like nothing humorous is occurring to me at all. You happen to be married to a comedian, yeah, which probably helps your home life in the sense that, you know, actually ever been offended by one of your jokes. You know, early on, I remember like we would have conversations where I say I more it was more like the fact that I would I remember I would pitch like a joke idea and she would be like, that's fucking awful. And and then I would I told her I go, you know, whenever you think something is awful, I know it's going to be good on stage.

32:22Like and she was like, she was like, that's horrible to say. I was like, no, it's true. Like if you have disdain for what I said, then I'm pretty confident that it's going to work. And it was kind of like that. But no, for the most part, no. And she says wildly inappropriate and crazy funny things. Like often way over my line, you know what I mean? Not where I'm offended, but I'm like, Jesus Christ. Like yeah, she says crazy shit. Really crazy. Has she ever offended you to the point where you're like, you can't tell that joke in public. Our family will suffer. No, I've never had we've never had that conversation.

33:02Sometimes we have what makes this joke digestible conversations. We're like, we talk about a bit and we're like, and then this is the punchline is like in this world. And it's like, okay, you got to find a way to say that that is going to be digestible to the like. So you actually look for like your own advantage. What I mean is like, you know, as a woman, I go like, you can shit on women harder because you're a woman. So like you should find your way into that bit from the perspective that like you're actually, you know what I mean? Like you're actually shit like if you're a woman, you can it's like a black comment can talk about black people, right?

33:47Like that's it's you're talking about your own. So like we'll talk about things like that. Like you can you can take this angle. And then that and then the joke becomes digestible. So we'll talk about like reframing material. And then to me, she's like, yeah, you're just a white guy. You can get. Apparently you guys can say anything. Oh, yeah, really. On the other hand, comedians and what's allowed in comedy at a given time has a powerful influence on culture. Yeah, what you can say, what you can't say. Has any comedian ever been canceled for what they said as part of a bit? I mean, we've got these examples of these, I consider them kind of sad instances where people kind of break down on stage, having interaction with someone in the audience and it really hurts their career and it's super offensive.

34:33But that's clearly not part of the bit. Right. Has a comedian ever been canceled for like here was the bit and they're done. I don't I can't tell you that it comes to like the top of my head thinking about that. I know there's been like I remember there's a Canadian comic that in Canada has some like bizarre to my experience free speech rules. Okay, I think it's a comic. I was like, I always know of Canadians is so kind and well, we hate. They have some amazing comedians. They also have some crazy serial killer stories up there I discovered. Really? Yeah. I mean, this idea that Canada is just all like nicer.

35:14Oh, that's nicer Americans is not true. No, no, there were wonderful Canadians. Yeah, but but they're not all nice. No, for sure. They're not all nice. No, there's some real fucking pricks up there. Yeah, I've met a few. But there's all there's a amazing. I mean, you know, obviously you think of like Norma Donald and like Myers, Ian Bagg like all these. There's really, really funny Canadian comics. But I remember that there was not too long ago. I'm sure we could find it. There's a Canadian comic that like he went after some woman in the crowd. Like, you know, shut her down, set something offensive, whatever.

35:54And he got arrested. You know, had and like, yeah, arrested. Yeah, yeah, arrested and had to pay like substantial fines. This is like Lenny Bruce's days. Yeah, it's really crazy. And this was not, I don't mean like 25 years ago. I mean, like sometime in the last five years. Whoa. Yeah. So that I know there are there are rules on so that's like the first thing that I think of when you when you say that. But I also just don't feel like when people talk about, you know, like cancel culture with comedians or like Elon's stupid fucking make comedy legal again goofy shit that he said. It's like, what are you talking about?

36:29Like, there is no. You can say whatever you want to say. The thing you're pointing. The thing you're really trying to talk about is the fact that like people react and you know about it, right? Like 30 years ago, there were people that hated. I'm sure Robin Williams and you know, Carl and like they hated him. The difference is they would just tell their friend. And if they really wanted to make a point to get a pen and a paper and buy a fucking stamp and mail them a letter. Like now you have social media platforms and people can make videos and like go crazy and you just hear the noise. But it's not like humanity has changed.

37:11You just hear people telling you that they don't like what you did or that they don't think you're funny or whatever. It's not like they didn't that didn't exist before. But that's also because thanks in large part to Rogan, but to others as well. Most comedians seem to control the venues in which they release their information podcasts. Yeah. You know, I guess you could be thrown out of a club and not be able to present your material there. But it's probably another one that you could open up and that's happened too. Yeah. But podcasts. People will now release their own specials where you know it's paid of you.

37:47There's Netflix. There's there are a bunch of different venues where it doesn't seem like comedy is is essentialized anymore. Control by the major media houses. That is true. It's in complete control of the comedians themselves. Like you are you can put up clips of you doing stand up. You can make skits. You can do short films. You can do whatever and you can release it and and find an audience like they say you know like make have an audience come to you. But I just don't buy this whole thing that like you know you can't joke about that you can talk about whatever you want. But not at work. I mean if you if someone makes a joke or repeats a joke.

38:22Oh, let's say an academic setting for the office place. No, your guys. I mean world is the worst when it comes to that. The academic world is actually it's interesting in the last five to eight years. The academic world has actually from this around this topic has become safer because the rules are very clear. They're what I call thick black lines. Right. It's when things are murky that people got themselves in trouble. Sure. Right. So if you look 10 years back. It was really complicated. Now everyone kind of gets to know what the standard is. Yeah. Might be uncomfortable for some not for others.

38:58But they know what the standard is. It's very easy to adhere to a standard if you know where the fences are. Sure. Where it seems to be still murky is in the workplace. Like in the boardroom you'll hear about you know like tech companies or in finance or startups right because startups when they're small typically don't have an HR department.

39:31Yeah. Everyone knows what the rules are. Yeah. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying you know what they are. But I feel like we're talking about in comedy as a profession. Like, you know, you can joke about whatever you want. But you can't dictate is how people will react to it. And if you're if you're trying to say like is some comedians do this where they go. So this was the joke. And what I'm mad about and what I'm going to be vocal about and complain about is that not everybody liked it. You're like, yeah, that's not I mean, that's essentially what they're doing right they throw a tantrum over the fact that some people are upset at the joke.

40:09Yeah, that's how it goes. Like either it goes really well or it doesn't and if you can't go. Oh, see, I can't joke about stuff because look how they reacted you're like, that's that's how this works. Like what you can also do is completely ignore that. And if you want double down on your joke. Keep going. Do it even do a crazier version of your joke, but just be prepared that not everyone's going to go. That was the greatest thing ever. And that's what some comics do is they go. I can't believe not everybody is applauding me on this thing. It's they'll they'll liken it to cancel culture, which is insane.

40:46Right. Yeah, you have to be a professional part of being a professional is how it lands as important as you just have no say in that. I'm always fascinated by comics who will smirk or laugh a little bit at their own joke. And assuming that certain jokes and bits work exceptionally well and you carry them forward from, you know, trying it out to, you know, Netflix specials or big venues, huge venue, you do huge venues, you burn huge venues. Do you ever get tired of the material and worry that your response is not going to that your amusement won't be there. And therefore they won't respond to it.

41:26This is two questions woven. I'm realizing. Do you think your own amusement with it with a joke has an impact on how it lands? That's question one and woven in with that is how do you then work with the idea that every time you tell a joke, it might not be as funny as the previous time. No, those are those are great questions. Yeah, I feel like if I'm smirking or laughing at a joke of mine, it's probably organic. I don't try to like manufacture one. You still want to enjoy the process of performing it. And when you lose that enjoyment of performing it, I do think the audience knows on like an unspoken level.

42:09There's something about it that doesn't come across the same way. And yeah, you sense it. And I think typically what happens, what's happened to me over time is if you're on tour and you're kind of like your brain is like walking up to this bit, like you know it's next. And you start to like internally go, this fucking bit like what happens naturally is you start to drop it. And it's you're essentially listening to yourself. It's one of those guests like the same way you go. I should I don't like this person, right? You go like I don't think I want to be friends with this person you you kind of like don't return to text or you go I'm not going to hang out with you slow exit.

42:49It's a slow exit. And what happens is you drop it. And the great thing about dropping it is your brain goes, hey, you have room for something now. And that room for something also prompts your brain to start thinking of new things. That's how you kind of come up with new material is that you but you have to this is the danger by the way of these comedians sometimes there's these comics who are like really funny, really talented people. And they'll do a 20 minute set right you'll be working in clubs and you see them do 20 minutes set and then they murder right they fucking kill so hard. And then like five years later you see them and they're doing that 20 minute set.

43:30And what happens is it's like a very natural thing that you just have to deal with is they have this great fear of not killing that hard anymore. So they don't stop doing that 20 minutes and by not stopping they just stop evolving and they stop creating and they they're just like they're the they're the 20 minutes that guy you go like yeah they have that great 20 minutes. And then it starts to get dated and then you know I mean bomb it it's exactly only some fraction of the audience will know it on time there was a song those like the song for a summer you could replace them bought with any it like a song for a summer way back when it was everywhere.

44:07Yeah. And then the band just disappears because they the one hit wonder for now. Yeah. You have you have to like because you'll see the bet the very best comics will do this and like it's kind of something you have to wrap your head around but then you once you do this long enough you go like oh shit. But the most elite comics are completely willing to bomb at these workout shows not like at their hour huge show like it but like at workout shows super elite comics will go up there and be like I'm just going to do because they know that you have to be willing to eat shit to come up with something really good and sometimes you'll watch them like bomb and and your own insecurities flare up you're like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm too focused on something really good but I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like I'm not going to be like they really that kind of break that's easy but they're not and volcano is.

45:23and his lack of fear, which is very admirable for cutting ties with your previous self. Just being willing to say, you know what, like that was a NBA championship, he works with Boston Celtics, so this is very relevant right now, or that was last year we're a new team now, we're not the defending champions. Yeah. Or musician at a platinum album, or this was a particularly successful podcast run and just cut ties with it and be willing to just go completely now and future. You mentioned Rick, one of the things that I've benefited so much from friends with Rick in addition to the fact that I just adore the guy.

45:55Yeah. Is that he has so many stories about things from the past if you ask him, but he never brings that stuff up. You know, he'll indulge you if you say, I tell me a story about Joe Strummer or something, he'll tell me. But he really lives now and forward. Yeah. And I think it's Wade's skin that says, you know, you don't want to be on the train of life, you want to be at the strap to the front end. You know, experiencing space and time as it's unfolding, which is a very philosophical way to put this, but that challenge of cutting ties with your previous self to continue to evolve your craft is so hard, but it's exactly what you're just doing.

46:28I mean, I had this rule early on that I think it was, I was just lucky that I told myself this, which is that I recorded an album, I think in 2010. And, you know, I, you kind of want to get like a special and a deal, but I didn't have one. So I recorded an album and I put out the album. And at that time, you know, people are buying these comedy albums and you start starting to stream stuff and you also physical copies are still a thing because this is like 2010. And so this was my work. Like I, from when I started stand up to this album, this was like the best I could do, right? This was all my best stand up.

47:13And I put it out and like, yeah, I mean, I had some marginal success with it. Like I was selling a lot of copies or whatever. Well, I told myself that even though I was not a ticket selling comedian, that everybody who was at a show had heard that album, like that they all knew it, which was completely not true. But by doing that to myself, it made me go, well, I need a new hour, right? So that was, I was lucky that I thought that way because I could have stayed doing a lot of that album because those were like really, like really worked out bits that would just crush. But I was just like, I knew that like I wouldn't move on and evolve if I just kept doing them.

47:56And that was the thing that I did. And then the next thing I did was another album and I did that again. I was just like, I gotta like, drop this stuff and move on. And that's I think what helped me and a bunch of other comics who like now we're in the practice of like shooting specials and then you just drop all of it and you go back to square one. But like that helps you to continue being creative and in standup. You have to just drop stuff. I love it. And I think this pertains to so many, basically all creative forms. Yes. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily for more than 13 years.

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51:21Again, that's Davidprotein .com slash Hubertman. On the topic of the finding the material humorous or being excited about the material, being crucial to how it lands with the audience, I'm going to make this very brief. When I was an undergraduate, I was interested in what makes something funny in the psychology and neuroscience of humor. And there wasn't a whole lot of neuroscience on it at that time. But the basic takeaway from the literature, as I recall, was that the listener thinks that an narrative is going one way and then there's this surprise element, something you didn't anticipate coming.

51:55I think that characterizes a lot of bits and a lot of jokes. 100%. Whoa, it's the pop. However, I've also seen you do bits and other people do bits where you're headed down a trail and I'm thinking, oh no, he's not going there, is he? And you go there and that's hysterical also. Yeah. So is there a name for this or how does it work? No, I think, I mean, you're right. So the most basic necessity for, I think, comedy at a very baseline level to explain it or define it is the element of surprise, right? The surprise is like, so it's that thing. If you go, I know where this is going, you're not going to react the same way.

52:33If it gets you, it's, oh my God. But that second description of like, is that person going somewhere? I think that satisfies something in human beings, which is somebody saying the thing that we all want to say. And you can't say it, you can't say it, you can't say it in polite society. You can't say it at a nice dinner function. You can't say it at work. And you're just like, God, this is what I think. And you know other people think it. And then the guy's up there and he's going like, hey, you want to hear some shit? Like somebody says it and everyone goes, this is, it becomes a release. It's a release of like, oh, he's saying the thing that we all wish we could say.

53:17And you're saying it, you know, it's a very particular thing because it actually is, it works because you're in that building too. It works because you all have the unspoken agreement that this is a place to do this in, right? It's still different. Like if I just walk up to you on the street and start saying that shit, you're like, Jesus Christ, dude, like you're a psycho. Lock him in. Yeah, it's like, but like in this context, so both things are satisfied something, I think in the, in the humor realm, right? The element of surprise will always be something like the unexpected. But there's also this like condition, I think we live with where we go, we all think this, but we can't say it.

53:57And that's a very satisfying thing when somebody says it. Well, I had the great benefit of getting a sneak peak at bad thoughts. Oh, yeah, thanks. And it's amazing. People should definitely check it out. And I don't want to give anything away, but the second one in the sequence that I watched, I thought, there's no way he's doing this. And they just kept coming at me. I was like, there's no way. Went to sleep last night. And this doesn't happen to me in a long time. I woke up laughing. Oh, yeah. Which is a wonderful experience. Yeah, they've been there only a few states of mind and body that you wake up and you're like, well, that was amazing.

54:33And you know, I woke up laughing. So it's seated into my unconscious. So I'm worried I'm going to say some of the things that you said. I hope you do. But one thing that occurred to me in watching bad thoughts is that you're not just a phenomenal comedian, but you're also a really good actor. Oh, thank you. And a number of comedians seem able to act, which is surprising to me for reasons that don't make any sense to me. But no, you know, if you look at athletes often are terrible actors. Yes. I mean, some of the best acting that athletes have done is when they're playing kind of a buffoon or that they're supposed to not be able to act well.

55:12I think of something like the naked gun movie. He's like, oh, Jay, right? To OJ, right? I mean, he's not a good actor. And it worked because he wasn't a good actor. Yeah. But you're a very good actor. Thank you. Like, did you train for it? I loved making people laugh. And the first thing I did like in performing was, you know, I did like a play as a kid. I did an improv troupe at 14, which is pretty young to be an improv troupe. I did that for like a summer. And my whole thing was I wanted to make movies. Like I had a plan when I was in college. I would, I worked, I had the communications track.

55:46So we would do TV radio production. And when we had video projects, I would always do like comedy things. And everybody would be like, what are you doing? Why are you making this? Like you're supposed to be making like a video about the soccer program, you know? I'm like, it's like, this is about like this, there's a capsule you put in your ass. And it freezes your shit. Like I would make like diarrhea commercials. And they're like, don't do that. But this was the stuff that would make, I was like making me laugh. And I wanted to make movies. And I just was like, you know, that was what I wanted to do.

56:16And then I moved out here. And I learned, I knew that at the time some of these big comedy movie people were a product of SNL. And that those people were usually products of second city or the groundlings. And since I moved to LA, the groundlings were big in LA. The, it's an improv, school and a performance plug. They put on shows. I was like, that's what I'll do. I'll just go to the groundlings. And I took some classes there. And I got through a few levels. But I got into standup shortly thereafter that. So my improv friends were like, you should try standup. And I got so hooked by standup. But I also saw a path because I was also like, we have to make a living, right?

57:04And the actor's life to me is so unsettling with like, you're on a show. And then they're like, I don't have a gig anymore. Like to me, the fact that standup, even though it's very, very, very low pay, especially like as you're getting into it, the fact that you can just like keep doing it. Like to me, like made sense it like soothe me. And I feel like, you know, I kind of stopped training as far as I did in another acting class in LA at that time, like early on. But I always just wanted to keep doing it, you know? And so every once in a while I would make like a short film. Like I made a few short films with friends or like, you know, comedy, comedy shorts.

57:47And I auditioned for some things, you know, I did small parts here and there, but I never really got to do all the types of things I wanted to do. So this show became like this incredible opportunity where I was like, where we're gonna tell this type of story and this type of story. Like, because it's essentially a collection of short stories is what the show is, right? And some of them are self -contained. Some of them are two part, three part. But it allowed me as an actor to play all these different roles, which was like so fun. It felt like I was doing like 20 years. I didn't really act that much.

58:19I got to like throw in all these different characters in the show. We're a very fine actor. As they say, it was like, oh, he's acting. This isn't just, you know, stand up. Yeah, you know, stand up as its own thing. In previous Netflix specials, but I've also seen you do these in these bits in smaller clubs like at the belly up and aspen. That's right. That's right. Where we just coincidentally wore the exact same clothing. So we're same flannel, same jeans, same dea. So it was really weird. SDNA. A coordinate. SDNA. SDNA. And the cosmic correspondence of the butterfly. That's right. I'm sorry.

58:58My dad was trying to explain to me at one point. You do voices very well. In particular, the voices of your kids, you're able, I always think that when somebody impersonates somebody else, it's about grabbing the key elements. Like the whole piece, they don't like turn around and like come back as you know, like, right. Like somebody can just grab a few key elements of somebody. In this case, someone we've never met, it was your sons. And we feel like we know them and we're getting that, like, what clearly are key features of their personality coming through. Do you practice those or you just observe and it just is kind of embedded in you?

59:35I think it's observed and embedded. And I think, in that case in particular, because with your kids, there's this thing that happens where you talk about your kids a lot, not on stage. In other words, you know, I'm talking to my sisters or I'm talking to a friend about the kids. So you're kind of like, you get this extra practice about them because they are so much something that you read. People always are like, how are your kids, right? And so you're just like, oh, I got home. This little shit came in. He was like, hey, fucking pick me up. You know, like, like, we, so you start like doing impression.

1:00:06What is that? That's the little guy. He sounds like a piece of work. Yeah, he is a piece of work, dude. He is something else. He's like, it's so funny because sometimes we call him little Joe Pesci because he's just like, what the fuck? We're like, yo, man, like I don't say that. All of this is, oh my goodness. He's six and he's like, he's fucking, fucking with me all day, Dan. Did you talk to that from your, from your wife? I feel like it's more her. I feel like she's got those. I'll have to ask. She's got those Hungarian roots where they, like, when I was a kid in our house, there was not a lot of cursing, dude.

1:00:40Oh, no, I get what I'm saying. Oh, yeah. No, no, I hit, you know, I think if I talk back, can we happen twice in my life? Yeah, I spoke back. I won't say to which parent and I got hit. Okay. Nowadays people are like, oh, he was being fine. Okay. I didn't, I don't swear at people. Yeah, very often. It says an extreme circumstance. Yeah. So, okay, so, but he swears all the time apparently. Dude, I mean, to the point where we're, I mean, like, I know people, whenever you talk about this, people are like, you're bad dad. I'm like, shut the fuck up. Like, you've never been around. Like, these boys are, I have too little wild dudes.

1:01:13They're, by the way, I always tell, share stories of like extremes. Like, they're sweet, adorable, loving, wonderful kids, right? But they're just too little dudes who like, I come home and they're like torture time. Like, they call it torture time, where like, I lay down and then they just get to like, fuck me up. And then they'll think they're stronger than me. And I'm like, bro, like, let me, do you want to feel this? And then I just put them in like some crazy, you know, wrap where they, they go, okay, okay, okay, okay. I'm like, yeah, I'll do the older one. He's nine. He's nine. Dude, I get home every day.

1:01:47He's like, check this out. He takes off his shirt. He's like, he flexes. Oh, yeah. He's like, I'm gonna be so jacked by high school. I'm like, yeah, yes, probably. And he's lean, like, he's got like, he's got the body for it. He's going to like, we go to the park and he's just sitting there doing pull ups and he'll bring weights. He'll bring weights to the park. And you see like other kids, like, he's like, he's just start. There's an Instagram account in this guy. I'll dig it up for the, for the captions. His daughter is probably 11. And she's doing pull ups with a 45 pound plate and ankle weights strapped her waist.

1:02:20Really? And she's doing pull ups to the chest. And she's not, you know, built yet. And she's clearly before puberty. And she just, but just, crew, crew, oh my goodness. That you just imagine like the tendon strength, the joint strength, gonna be, yeah, well gymnast perhaps, but he's so into it talking about six packs. I feel like I have a six pack soon. Like, yeah, sure, keep going, man. He says, why don't you have one? Like just fucking, he's already bust in your house. You told me as a story once over dinner about your son learning piano. If you remember that, I think it was like the younger one.

1:02:55And it was something like, you know, like how's piano going? And you're like, and here, you're saying, he's going to fucking sucks. You know, like that's it. It sounds like that's his response. He's just, dude, he's ready to pop back all the time. Always, no, he's completely ready. He, the funniest thing that he did recently was, we've, they both go to Jiu Jitsu. Okay. And, the older one's really thriving. Like he has a skill for it, you know? He's, and he's doing it well, moving up. And the younger guy, I mean, you know, he's like a puppy. Like, he's the little start when he was five. Like, they're just, it's just different, right?

1:03:30You're pretty young. And so we're, we're at class. And he goes, I'm not doing this anymore. And I go, what do you mean? He goes, I'm too busy, man. And I go, what? He goes, he goes, my schedule. I go, you're schedule. I go, okay, tell, tell the instructor. So that guy comes over, you know, and he goes, Hey, how, you know, how do you enjoy class today? Julian, he was like, good, but I'm done. And he goes, what do you mean you're done? And he goes, I'm too busy, man. He's like, what are you, what are you too busy with? He goes, I have kindergarten, I have Spanish, I have drums. I don't have time for this.

1:04:08And I go, I'm sitting there like, this is insane. And that guy goes, but you know what? You got to be strong in this world, don't you? And he goes, yeah, he goes, yeah, there's no option for being strong. So because you can't have the option to not be strong, right? And then Julian's like, that's right, he's like, great. So I'll see you Thursday. And he goes, I told you, I'm way too busy. And then he just was like, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm like, okay, dude, he's done. He's done. I mean, he can really advocate for himself. He definitely advocates for himself. I've never been the, you know, the type where like, you have to do these more.

1:04:46Like, I feel like the fun thing about a kid, boy or girl with sports is expose them to a lot of sports. And I don't want to like, you know, go, you have to do these, like whatever sport you like, you can do that one. Clearly, like, this wasn't the one that drew him in enough. And I'm totally fine with it. It's like, cool, you want to try tennis, you want to try soccer, you want, like, I'll let him try all the sports. I want them to be in activities, but I'm not going to be like, you have to do all these sports, you know? Meanwhile, they're becoming comics in their mind. Oh, they're, yeah, both parents are comics.

1:05:20They're funny, dude. They are very funny. Yeah. They, and they, they love to laugh. And it's fun because you see kids, when a kid says something, that's genuinely funny, and you start laughing, you see like that look in the right. They're like, oh, that was, that's cool. They just try to like, do it again. And I have to do it too much. You're like, yes, not funny anymore. You can't do it that much. Yeah, that is a perfect cue for me to ask what I was going to ask. Earlier, when we were talking about, when you are amused by something, you really delight in telling this bit. Yeah. It impacts the audience and how it lands.

1:05:51There's a very famous patient in neuroscience. Probably the most famous patient is the name is HM. It's that they, you know, we don't know his real name. He's dead now, but he had a lesion to his hippocampus, the spray and area involved in memory. And he was studied extensively for decades. And most of what we know about human memory is from this guy. All the other stuff we know from mouse studies, a little bit from monkey studies. Wow. So there's a very well known study where you go in and he has no retrograde memory. He can't remember anything that you told him before. Like within a matter of seconds, he forgets it completely.

1:06:25And they've tested this every which way. Holy shit. His brain is now in a jar. It's been scanned, et cetera. But so the study goes something like this. You go in and you tell HM a joke. And he laughs. And he thinks it's very funny. Then you leave you come back and he doesn't remember who you are. This has been tested again and again. He's not fibbing. OK. And there are a number of ways that you can measure this, especially if you make it sadly, like some survival based things. Like yeah. You tell him the joke again and he laughs again, but a little less. And the next time a little less and a little less.

1:06:58And eventually he's like, yeah, that's not really funny. Yeah. Same joke, he does not remember the joke. But there seems to be some unconscious memory of the joke, which I always found fascinating. So it's like, it's almost like that the narrative around something we get saturated to it. We're all familiar with the friend at a dinner party that tells a joke and everybody laughs. And then they make the cardinal mistake, which is to tell the joke again at the same dinner. And it just burns it. It burns it there and it burns it the previous time. So what do you, I mean, I'm not asking you to be a neurologist or a neuroscientist.

1:07:32No, no. But what do you think is going on here? Not necessarily an HM, the patient, but there's something about telling that funny punchline twice that you just, I feel like men, like guys seem to do this more. It's like, you got it, you nailed it. Yes. Do not tell the joke again. Well, every guy thinks he can fight, fuck is funny and can drive. Those are the four things that every guy thinks he's awesome at. And you're lucky if you're marginal at one. Every guy thinks, you know what I mean? Every dude is like, I can do it. I can drive. I'm hilarious. Like, fight, chicks, like every guy has this thing.

1:08:05And then the more self -aware ones go, like, I'm not good at these. I'm good at this one. So I'll train. You know what I mean? Like that's cross -trained. Cross -trained, man. You gotta do them all. But the funny thing is when you were talking about HM, what I thought you were going to, the point you were making is that you go back in and it's not HM that is not laughing anymore at the funny thing is that the person telling is that you lose something. Because there is this thing in standup. That is like a phenomenon. Like, I don't have the answer to. But any comedian you talk to will tell you that this is true.

1:08:38Where you go and you say this thing, right? It might be like your opening thing, or it could be a couple minutes in, and you say the joke, you tell the thing, and it kills. And you're like, fuck yeah, this is awesome. You know, like your brain just goes like, lock it in. And then the next night you go, you say it. And it gets laughs, but it's like, it's a little less. And then this progresses. Like you keep doing shows, and it's like two months later, and you're like, the things like not, it doesn't really work. And you go listen to like, I think I'm saying it the same way. It's like there's this, like sometimes there's this thing where it's like a, there's like a magical quality of like if it just streamed out of you once, in this setting, in this room, at this moment, there's something about the way that you set it and the timing with which you set it, that it evoked all this laughter, and that for some reason, this thing no longer connects and just it doesn't register.

1:09:40And you try to do the analysis of why that is the case. And you essentially just end up doing this. You're like, I don't know why, but it just stopped being funny. To all new audiences, it killed over here. It doesn't work here. So interesting. I'm obsessed with mainly two things. Time perception and state changes in the human brain. We know so much about REM sleep and slow wave sleep. We know very little about waking states, like alert and focused, or like we have these terms, but like there's so much more going on there. And so the question is this, we're at a club or a stadium and you're gonna go on, but I go on first, which means my bit sucks.

1:10:22It just sucks because I'm not a comedian. Someone else goes on, let's say Brian Holtsman, I find very funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's good, right? When he's on, he's really on, he's very funny. Holtsman goes on and does really well. Who do you want to follow? Holtsman, because the crowd is in a state of being ready to receive the jokes. Exactly. Yeah, I feel like when you're newer, the probably the typical answer for most comedians would be like, I want to follow the guy that didn't do well, because then I can save the day. But the longer you do it, you realize that's not actually, like you actually want the guy in front of you to do well, even really well, because it does generate this thing of like, this is what this is.

1:11:12We're at a place of doing this. It's jokes, it's fun. And we kind of borrow the term ride their wave. Like that guy just created a wave and if you can jump on it. Sometimes you have to reset, you have to like, you know, you're kind of letting the audience know this is a different thing, especially if they like absolutely murder. Like if they destroy you're like, whoa, like you just kind of go, yeah, I'm a new person. And the thing is you don't want to go like, I'm scared that that happened. You just go, this is my thing now, you know, but you have them in the state of, this is, we're here to laugh.

1:11:50Whereas the guy who just like, ate shit, they are all like, what the fuck is this? And then, you know, they basically dug a hole. So then you go up there being, you're now the person that has to like set the table and be like, so I know that last thing felt like a fucking eulogy. So now I will try to get you out of feeling the way you feel and make you understand that it's joke time. You'll often start slower by following the person that did poorly, right? You think it's, oh, you're funny. It's now going to go well. You have to like, cook it back up. So following the good comic is always the better choice.

1:12:29Rated T for Teen. Each year, thousands of adults lose their shred. It's an epidemic simply known as shred loss, but it doesn't have to be this way. Because rekindling your shred is as easy as playing the new Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4. With new parts, cross -platform multiplayer, and sick new game modes, we can put it into shred loss everywhere. It's a new Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 and show the world that the shred's not dead. Get Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 available now. I'm thinking of giving toasts at weddings. Yeah. Like if somebody gives a really great toast, giving the next toast, you're saying, oh, that's a hard act to follow.

1:13:06No, actually, it's an easy act to follow. Because everyone's just kind of basking in whatever it just sounds similar. That's right. In the state changes, whether or not we're talking about running or you're talking about cannabis or you're talking about whatever it is, I mean, I find that so much of the creative process or the constructive process, science or comedy or whatever, is about accessing these states and we learn how to do it through, what kind of becomes an unconscious process, but you know how to get there again and again. And so much of becoming a professional is about going through the peaks and valleys of bombing and coming back totally.

1:13:40So I'm curious before you go out on stage now, given the size of the crowds, is just the kind of memory of what's about to happen, sufficient to put you in state. So the thing is, the longer you do it and the more shows you do, you've kind of performed in every state. Sometimes you have to remind, I like to remind myself that I'm at my funniest and I'm the best version of myself on stage when I have a silly mindset going, meaning just like goofing off, like being a kid almost. So if I'm backstage and I have you in there and I'm just saying, you know, I'm like, poking you, not like roasting you, but like, you know, being silly, right?

1:14:26We're related, I can say. Just like being silly. I feel like that mindset is like the best version of me to go on stage. And you can forget it, but I forget it all the time, right? Because I've performed tired, upset, sad, anxious, like I've performed in every possible state. But I do like to tell myself, like, oh yeah, don't forget, kind of like, get yourself into this silly state. I also like, I'm kind of an introvert, right? Like there's some true extrovert comics, like Buddy Burt's like a true extrovert. And like his green room before a show will have like 80 people in it. And I'm like, what?

1:15:04Like I like my green room to have either just me or like two or three people and like chill energy, but still like, it's still loose, right? It's not like a serious thing, but like loose fun. And that gets me into the mindset of like, this is gonna be fun. I look over my set list, you know, like I'll check in on, you know, you listen to like what the crowd's like and you're like, oh, they sound, they sound hot. That kind of gets you excited. But I just try to embrace that mindset of like, let's have fun. Let's have fun. That puts me in a good place as a performer on stage. Do you watch a lot of comedy, like the greats, like do I don't watch a lot of comedy anymore, I would say.

1:15:48Like I as a kid, I mean, I think the reason you kind of follow this path is because you're just such a huge fan of it. So like growing up, I watched a lot of the, you know, evening at the improv, deaf jam, specials, like a lot of, you know, it was also like, specials were truly special, right? Cause there was like, there's like six specials, maybe a year Eddie Murphy. Yeah, Eddie and Chris Rock and Carlin and like, all those guys would like put out a special, I mean, once every few years and there was only a few places, you know, HBO was just like the place and then comedy central became the other plague.

1:16:25HBO was premium, like really elite, like huge, huge talent and then comedy central was kind of everybody else. And then now the landscapes changed where, you know, we get, I don't know, man, I feel like there's 300 specials a year, right? Like cause you can release them on, they're on that flicks, they're on Macs, they're on Hulu, they're on Amazon, they're on YouTube. Like there's just, you're bombardment. It's great in one regard for standup cause it speaks to how popular standup is and it's so accessible and it's cool that so many people can put out their stuff. But it's just like overwhelming.

1:16:57So I'll only check out like, I feel like in the last couple of years, I've maybe seen like two specials, you know, a lot of times I'll start a special, turn it off after like 10 minutes, to kind of see like what someone's doing. But I find it personally hard to finish a special but I also find it hard to watch standup in the room like at a club or something. Like I get, I leave, like I don't mean like I leave the venue, I just leave the room. Like it's just harder for me to, I feel anxious. I think it's really about me internalizing what I feel like the feeling is on stage, especially if it's not, like if it's really, really good standup, then I sit there and I go like, oh my God, and I enjoy it.

1:17:41But if there's like any bit of it that like feels like maybe that's not working or that guy's anxious or whatever, it reminds me of my own feelings on stage that are like that. And I don't want to be in that space. So I like, I get, I leave the room and I'll just go sit somewhere else. I mean, so much of what we're talking about today, I just realize is emotional contagion. It really introduces this question. This is very reductionist thinking, but how much of the success of a bit or a joke is the emotion that the person telling it is caring and how much of it is the actual words and content. It's probably that plus the rhythm and the timing.

1:18:17There's a lot of things. It's a combination of those things. But emotional contagion is real. You're talking about it as a comedian watching comedy, it kind of permeates you. Is that what it's called emotional contagion? Some people are more emotionally permeable than others. Yeah. You know, we could put this on a spectrum. We could even put it on the, so what used to be called the autistic spectrum, like people who are like contained in their emotions, like things don't get them, but people are at the far end of that spectrum. They have a sensory sensitivity. You know, kids that are really like severely autistic, you know, the amount of noise in a typical room is overwhelmed.

1:18:56So overwhelming, right? Actually, you've discovered that that's actually outside the brain. That they have their sensory endings are tuned differently to the world. They're experiencing the world very, very differently. You have these certain people get scared when they watch a movie and they jump when the monster jumps out. Other people are like less of a startle response. I get startled. I get startled. Yeah. I think that it's natural to get startled. I think that some people just have very kind of flat affect and some people can run a ride. It's like a seesaw and for some people, the hinge is tight.

1:19:31Doesn't necessarily mean they're calm. Some people are just like pissed off all the time and the hinge is tight. Some people they're happy all the time and the hinge is tight. Most people, that hinge can move. And so this thing of emotional contagion is largely, this is what's so interesting. It's largely fed through the way things sound, somewhat through faces, but largely through the way that things sound. And then there seems to be, and not a lot's known about this yet, kind of a sixth sense, where actually an energy in the room can start to literally cascade from one person to the next. And this has been studied in animals with the fear response.

1:20:04You can literally take an animal, scare it, take it out of that tube, put another animal in there and it will show a fear response based on something molecular in the air. Really? Absolutely. And I mean, their hormones work within us hormones between two members of the species. They're clearly pheromone -like effects. We haven't identified what those pheromones are. Same thing can happen in crowds. You can get a kind of hysteria. We do feel like the best, the best kind of experience as a comedian performing is where you feel like the audience is one, right? Like they are one. It's not 10 ,000 separate people.

1:20:42It's like this is all together. And that's kind of like, when that's going as well as it can go, that is like an incredible rush. And the feeling is that like, they do kind of mold, it's like they started as 10 ,000 people and then they just kind of become this one thing. And you're kind of rocking this one entity out there together. Same way that like the opposite, when it's like, really bad, it doesn't feel like, you know, you can feel like, oh, they are together in not liking this. This is one crowd going like, no. You know what I mean? That feeling is the opposite of like bombing beyond like emptiness that you feel.

1:21:27But you feel it like they are together. They're unified in how they feel about this. This is why some people, including me, fear going to theater. My sister loves theater. We go to New York and in the fall for her birthdays and because she loves theater, we go to theater. And if theater is great, it's like amazing. If theater is bad, like it leaves me feeling bad for the people like the tone in the room is like, it's heavy. It's not like just like turn off the special. It's like, it sucks. It takes you to a lower place. Well live is always just such a different experience. You know what I think about?

1:22:02I don't know if there's any science to this, but I always sometimes think about the fact that I feel like comedy specifically as an art form might be the most involuntarily subjective meaning that if you look at a photo or a piece of art, you might go like, I don't like that. And then I might educate you in some way about it. And you kind of look at it differently. And then maybe over time, you go, you know, I actually love this painting, right? Or music is definitely one where you have an involuntary response, but I have not cared for music and then actually started to like it more. But I feel like comedy, it's like, it's not, you're not really thinking when you laugh hard at something, you're not like, oh, I thought about it for a while and I'm going to start laughing now, right?

1:22:59Like you just, you laugh. And if you don't laugh, you're just like, yeah, I don't find that funny. You don't usually come back and go, you know, now that you've talked to me about it, I'm going to start laughing. Like it really is this experience where you just, it happens without, so you're kind of brain is telling you, this is what's funny, right? Like it's happening like separate from you and there's no faking it. Like you're either laughing or you're not. You got it, if you laugh really hard, it's like this great experience, but you can't convince someone to laugh that hard. A very important point that never occurred to me.

1:23:35I love art history in part because I like art, I've always liked art. But by taking an art history class, I like literally fall in love with certain artists in their paintings. And I look at certain paintings completely differently now, as you point out on the basis of what I know about what the art represents, the history of the artist. Like if a joke isn't funny to me or a bit isn't funny, I don't care what the process was for that bit. I'm like, it's just not funny. It's just not, yeah, it seems like it's one of the purest, kind of yum -yuck or meh kind of things, which is another point of neuroscience.

1:24:14The nervous system has degrees of this, but it basically bends things very quickly into like yum. Like this is awesome or hilarious or whatever. Yuck like, oh no, and kind of meh. Yeah, there's not a lot of very, within each one of those bends, there's a lot of variation. You love, love, love, hate, hate. But then, you know, but you bring me to a decision really quickly. Very yum -yuck or meh. Right. Right. And like especially with different arts, right? Like, I mean, literally you look at the photo and your brain kind of tells you, right? Like, I just don't feel like most of the time you're not gonna go back to that and have a much different response, right?

1:24:53I mean, with comedy, you're not gonna do a response. With, like, I also did Spanish art history when I was studying in Madrid. And they would take us to the Padao Museum and give us, like, our lectures in front of the pieces of art. And you just, yeah, your brain starts to, not just appreciate, you start to fall in love with the paintings and you go, like, oh, I feel this differently. That type of experience doesn't really, can't happen with comedy. I'm not gonna be like, start laughing, dude. Listen to how this, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it is what it is. Your brain, it's so quick, whether or not it makes you laugh.

1:25:33And if something's not funny, if you tell me, he toiled on this for 40 years. I'd be like, well, then it especially sucks. It's really shit. Where's the, where's the, he's showing me a sculpture? I might not appreciate it. You sort of explain what went into that. Yeah, you can develop at least an appreciation for your work. Well, it's interesting. You know, versus who this happened all the time, especially now because everything's shareable. Where, like, your friend goes, check this out and you watch the thing and you're like, okay. And though, he isn't that the funniest thing you've ever seen.

1:25:59You're like, no. They're like, you didn't like that? No. And that's kind of like how it ends. They're like, yeah, but you know, he's saying that he's late because he, I'm like, yeah, it's not, I'm not laughing, dude, I don't know what to tell you. And then they go, okay. But they had a different experience with it that you can't, you can't like articulate and intellectualize the experience to someone where they go, oh, yeah, now I think it's funny. Well, I think this gets back to HM and this idea that there's a subconscious, you know, just an unaware process that dictates whether or not something's funny or not.

1:26:31It tickles our brain below the level of like, precise understanding. And I'm so fascinated by this because as you point out, there just aren't other things like this. You could say this about people like, oh, liked this person right away, didn't like them. Yes. But in general, the more that we learn about people, this is why all the efforts to try and, you know, erase racism, for instance, the more you learn about a culture, the more you tend to like the people of that culture. Yeah. Even if you were arch enemies for, you know, decades or hundreds of years before, there's just the way the human brain works.

1:27:02Though with comedy, it's like a, it's, it feels like, it's like chemistry. It does. You know, and of course, you could say, well, you like or don't like the comic, but I have to imagine that you, that you like it or not, probably represent the, the like bad boyfriend or the abusive dad to somebody or the, or the friend that they loved in college, let's make it positive too, or the guy they like to be around. I mean, you don't know that people's relationship to you. You never know. And so the humor may land or not land, depending on like all sorts of unconscious stuff going on in the So much. And you realize too that like you could have a joke about a teacher, you know what I mean?

1:27:40Like you're just like it's part of your bit. You're not thinking of that. And like you saying that has a ripple effect that you don't realize to, to, different people in the audience for, for dozens of different reasons, you could have just said the word teacher and the person's like, you know, I am a teacher and then that, that's pleasing to them. They feel seen. Other person hated their teacher. They, you know what I mean? They start thinking about like all these little things where you go, like I just said one word about this and you don't realize that it, it triggers other thoughts and people's minds, you know?

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1:30:04Yeah. Fascinated by it. Yeah. Very, very distinct aspect of the comedy experience. You know, I mean, at a big rock concert, I mean, the singer might like put out a fist to someone in the audience or even let somebody sing for a moment, but maybe let someone up on stage. But crowd work is like, you're really giving up a lot of control. Yeah. Right. If you ask a question, I mean, you have to be able to work off whatever comes back. Do you do crowd work? I mean, I feel like crowd work is just part of the arsenal of skills you have over time as a comedian. You have to be able to improvise. You have to be able to handle crowd work.

1:30:39You have to be able to write material. You have to be able to do all those things. I don't go up and do like crowd work shows. Like some people, they're like, there's a crowd work show. But I've been doing stand -up like, you know, 23 years. And especially when you're in the club system, when you're unknown and you're just doing weekends and people are drunk, like crowd work just becomes part of how you do it. Like you don't have an option to not, you could just not develop the skill set and then just die up there. But like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's a necessity. So at this point, like, I feel like I want to go on stage with like, I want to do x, y, I want to execute these things.

1:31:23I want to get these, these jokes out. I want to say these things. But you're never ever to the point where you go. And therefore, I am removed from having to do any type of crowd. Because crowd work is usually, it's a response to something happening. You're being heckled, somebody's saying something. You know, there's this thing that like, if you're in a huge venue, you don't want to actually go like, hey, what's going on with you, buddy? Right? Because there's somebody up in the 300 section who's like, I don't know what's going on. But the other side of it is, you cannot ignore the obvious, meaning if a fight breaks out, if somebody throws something, if somebody is screaming and you just go like, I'm just not going to, I'm going to act like that's not happening.

1:32:15I'm going to keep doing stand -up, like what I wanted to do. Then people go like, this is weird, right? Because this person's ignoring the obvious. Right? You're no longer connected to them in the same way. They know that there's a disconnect now. Like, you're ignoring that. Like, so that's how you stay in kind of having, you have to maintain the skill set. Some people make it more of an emphasis of their show. And there's like really, really good people at doing that. I feel like it's also like, part, it's more of like the DNA of New York comics too. Like, I've always thought that like, the level of proficiency there is really high in that scene.

1:32:55More of a back and forth, you know. So, because of small venues, I'd go to the Comedy Cellar when I'm out there. I don't know if that's still one of the main places. Absolutely. It's a better one. Let me know. But my sister's always like, we're going to go to the cellar again. Yeah, cellars finished. And we have our favorite nights there. Actually, we're nights where it was pretty bad. And we can laugh about that. Yeah. But there have been a few nights there where it just killed. Yeah. And actually, there was one night, and as my sister, this happened, Chappelle just like leaves Radio City Hall, shows up with his entourage and just like hops up on stage.

1:33:25Yeah. And just that only happens in New York City. Yeah. I don't think that really happens in Los Angeles terribly often. He's done that quite a few times. He's just like rolls in. Yeah, he's done that in LA a number of times. He's done in San Francisco a bunch. Like, I'm saying, like, it's pretty well known, you know, he'll come into the store. That's his thing. Yeah, he loves the stage. And sometimes he'll be up there like legitimately, like three or four hours. Yeah, he's still. We ended up going home because eventually, you just called in a night and we were leaving. And his team was like, you're really going to leave.

1:33:55We had had enough, but it was just kind of unbelievable to me that this stage of his career that he was going to wander in and start doing comedy. But I think it speaks to the intimacy of those small clubs. It does. I mean, it's still one of the few venues where like, you can see greats. Like I got to see you at the belly up in Aspen. That's a small issue, then you. Yeah, it was fun. Yeah. We're going to go to stadium. What's the largest stadium crowd you've done? It's more than, you know, the biggest crowd I did was like a little over 17 ,000 at a climate pledge arena in Seattle. Yeah, so huge difference of scale there.

1:34:31Yeah, not many public facing things occupy those levels of scale. I have a question about, kind of cultural standards. Yeah. And what's really funny? So if you look back to comedians where, at a time where, like cursing on stage wasn't allowed, like kind of pre -Lenny Bruce. Yeah, right. Is any of that comedy funny? Meaning, you know, now there's been this kind of expansion of, kind of what you can say, even just cursing. And so, like, if we look at earlier, we're talking about working out. You know, like bodies looked very, like muscular bodies looked very different in films in the 40s. Like you say, well, that guy's that person isn't very big by today's standard, but you say they're very fit, right?

1:35:15Or she was very beautiful and very sexy in the 70s, but very different than like 90s and 2000s. So standards change for what's considered ideal. Yes. The male one, by the way, is hilarious for the leading man of like the 40s and 50s. Oh, yeah. They were very slender now. They're like, I mean, like not super heroes. They'd be like, they'd be like slender and also like not even very well defined. And they'd be like, this is the stud of the, you know, mean of the movie, like a guy who's not wearing a shirt. And you're like, this guy's not active. Like, no, this is like the stud of the movie. Right.

1:35:51That's just a different time. Just a different time, different standard. And then of course, you know, standards of women's bodies have changed. Sometimes more volumptuous, sometimes like in the 90s, it was the kind of wafery love. And these things mirror what's going on in society to some degree. But if you listen to comedy pre -Lenny Bruce, pre -swearing, is any of it really funny to you? Well, to me, I feel like I would probably listen to most of that with like that mind of, because what happens with comedy too is to be fair to those people is you end up hearing so many versions of what they did.

1:36:33If things are just derivative of other styles and types of jokes and types of performances, that by the time, like if I heard this guy in 1945, doing these jokes and he's killing in this room, you know, I would go, I'd probably hear the joke and be like, oh yeah, like I know this joke. Like I know 10 versions of that joke because I've heard them. So I, hearing it just doesn't make me laugh, right? Even though it's the original. Even though it's the original, yeah. Because I feel like, I feel like that even happens with like, well -known comedians. Like I was born in 1979. And so like my exposure, like I missed, I wasn't like really conscious and aware of like the prior era, right?

1:37:28And like he's like a god in stand -up. He's considered the the the best comedian ever. I mean, my most, it seems. By a lot of people, you know, he's on the Mount Rushmore comedy. He's definitely on the Mount Rushmore. But I felt like by the time that I heard prior, I had heard so many people that were influenced by prior that hearing the original version wasn't like, it wasn't like I'm doubled over laughing. Like I'm hearing every other version. Like they're clearly inspired and, you know, taking from him. But so now I hear the original and I go like, oh, I get that that's the that's the version of that.

1:38:07They can happen with comedy films too. It's like you watch Animal House. If you hadn't seen it before and you see it now and you've watched a lot of comedies, you might just go like, oh, I get how this is the blueprint. Because I've seen so many people take from this that now when you see the original, you'll be like, oh, you're like, yeah, but you don't realize that's the first time it was done. Like these jokes were done here originally. Everybody took from them, you know? So I don't think that I would probably end up laughing very hard at the pre -Lenny Bruce comic just for the reason I said though, just because it's been done, I've heard so many versions of it.

1:38:43So it seems with comedy unlike with music or poetry or books, there isn't that much carry forward. So for instance, I mean, I was very, very young if, in some case, not born when the Rolling Stones were doing their great work or the Beatles or Elvis, right? But that music is awesome. Yeah, yeah. So the fact that many people have taken bits and pieces from those, like you can't create an amazing clash song the way that clashed it. Like they did it best. And it will always, like death or glory will be like, I don't care how many songs were derivatives of that, that song still kills. And so comedy seems different.

1:39:22I think it's different in that regard. I definitely think it's different. I think that, you know, it's one of those things where like it's always shifting, also like what's funny? It really is directly related to what's happening in the real time. Like in the time you're living in, you can see whether it's from stand -up or movies, jokes that aren't fun, that were like very funny in 1982, in 1995, in 2007, that you go, it's just kind of shifted, right? It's like it's not funny anymore. Like, it not only just mean because it's not like politically correct. I just mean like there's this unspoken thing that happens, right?

1:40:09We're like, you're laughing at something and then you kind of go like, hey, we collectively are, don't find this is just not funny anymore. So actually a lot of those things might even strike you as not only like not great, you might just be like, that's not funny at all. Yeah, once one of those things in San Francisco around New Year's and they literally wheeled out, is it like any young men or any young men or something? He was doing these knock -knock jokes. He was probably in his late 90s. He was forgetting the punch lines. But occasionally, he'd nail one. Yeah, it was not funny. Yeah, it was almost embarrassing, you know, but you were like, wow, this guy's still like thinks it's funny.

1:40:43He was still going. So there was some amusement, but you look at the older people in the crowd. Yeah. And they were like, oh my god, it's bringing me back. Yeah. So it's like, I'm a goodness, but no one else was laughing. Right. But as you're describing, some people might look at some comedy. I'm not going to name names because I'm not versed enough in comedy, but from the 70s or 80s and we like, yeah, that's just kind of like raw, but like it doesn't really do anything for me anymore. I'll tell you, like this is a very simple example, but like I can recall that like 20 years ago, if a guy was in a club and there was two guys sitting there in the front row together or whatever, a lot of times we'd be like, what do you guys a couple?

1:41:23And that that would sometimes prompt laughs. People would laugh. They would be like, they're a couple. And like today, if somebody was like, what do you guys a couple? They'd be like, yeah, and everyone would be like, okay, right? Like it would be like, like it was considered like, oh, it's funny. You're implying that they're romantic couple. And like, I feel like just the way society evolves, today people would be like, and oh, yeah, I mean growing up when you're, I mean, I'm a little bit older than you are. Yeah, I remember like the first gay characters showing up in film and reality TV. It was like a huge deal.

1:41:57Yeah, right? And then so things have really changed. So what is, yeah, things have really changed. Like no one's ever been funnier than Eddie Murphy ever. They, I think he's like him and his prime of being funny. Like there's just nothing. He's he's a total prodigy once in a lifetime type of talent, right? Like so funny. If you put like delirious on for a 21 year old today, they would be like, what the fuck is happening? Like it's, there's things in it that are just, they're just too dated now. You know what I mean? Like just concepts that are, he's still funny. You shit. But like those bits would not land like they wouldn't 83.

1:42:35They just wouldn't. Let's talk about the darkness of comedy. I once had the experience of going to the comedy seller with some friends and this guy got up there. I don't remember his name and it was super dark. I mean, it was like clowns with vans doing tarot. I mean, it was just like so dark. And the only thing that was hysterical about it was the fact that he seemed freaked out by it too. Yeah. Like what he was saying was like horrible. Who's saying horrible? Horrible things that had gone through his mind. Yeah. But the fact that he thought it was horrible was what was funny. Sure. And we're like, whoa, like we walked out of there just like we felt like we'd been transported to someplace really unhealthy.

1:43:17Yeah. And I was like, man, I feel like I need a shower after that. This was intense and scary. And like this is my favorite thing by the way. Whoa. And then we had the experience of running into him and his girlfriend later that night. And we were like, oh my god. And he just took off. He just like could not handle the reflection about what had just happened. Really? Oh, yeah. No, he just I'm sure he enjoyed the attention. Right. He's a performer. So but two things occurred to me around that example. One is a guy who's really dark on stage seemed like a very loving guy at least out in public with his girlfriend almost always the case.

1:43:53Yeah. And the other one is that where he took us and where he went was so down in the dungeon. Like I still kind of get a weird feeling in my body thinking about it. Yeah. But his shock at his own words was absolutely hysterical and brilliant. And it was like, hey, let's go down into the darkness of human nature. Yeah. I'm going to show you how dark it really is. And I'm going to leave. And you're just like left spinning. And it still sits in my body. We're talking about that visceral experience. So it's in my body. I don't know what to make of it. It's incredible. Hey, that first of all that he can access it is great.

1:44:33It is as if you're talking about just like as the art form. Like the the best thing to do as an artist, any type of artist is I think acknowledge and produce with the dark thoughts. In other words, don't act like they're not there because they're in everyone. And then put it into your art. In other words, it's if you go like, I want to fucking rob a bank. Like it's better if you're an artist to channel that into art, whether you write a story about it, you paint a painting, you write a song, you talk about as a comedian, you're fantasy of doing it, then to actually do it. So it's actually you're channeling it in the healthier option.

1:45:15And I also feel like 20 some years of doing this, dude, the best people as people that I've ever met are the darkest comedians on stage. And the absolute most terrifying people are the super clean. I like really do because they don't acknowledge the darkness. The darkness exists in all of us. They the Dalai Lama has dark thoughts. Like it's just young said this. I mean, it's just the way it is. It's human. It's human beings like we all now some of us have not as you know present and overwhelming dark sides and thoughts, but there is darkness in everybody. The thing is I feel like what some of the clean comics do is the lack of acknowledging it means that that darkness has to come out in some other way.

1:46:09It just does. So how does it come out? Well, it might come out in their personal life. I mean, good. Yeah. I mean, with there's very famous cases of don't curse. And then you know, you're doing some pretty dark things. Like that's that's a real thing, man, that like, hey, I'm going to talk about cookies and where do you put your socks? Yeah, I can't find my other sock. Like that's your fucking bit talking about socks. Okay. What are you actually really up to? Because the thing is those guys, some of those guys, look, I'm not saying they're not fun. There's very, very funny clean comics. Some of those guys are right on the line of like, man, if you just acknowledge some of this stuff, it would be even funnier.

1:46:51Like you're just, and then you don't know how that darkness is going to show itself because it's probably going to show itself in a way that's not so pleasant. Yeah. I completely agree with you. I have a friend who's a very, very well known musician. I won't say what genre and what I love about his music is it encompasses every range of emotion. Yeah. Every range. And I've seen him play the huge crowds and just get so pissed. And I've seen him do love songs, hate songs, revenge songs, like just everything. Yeah. But in person, he's like the kindest dude ever. I mean, that's, and it's he's so grounded.

1:47:33He and his partner are like the sweetest people. And she's got it too. She's an artist too. And some of her are like, oh my god. And then you meet her and you're like, it's so kind, so trustworthy. Yeah. So exactly exactly where you're describing that. They're in touch with it. They know how to channel it. Yeah. It's I think it's about doing that. And I think some I look, I think it's also a natural human instinct to not want to acknowledge or play with the dark thoughts that you have, right? Like it's you don't want to sometimes because you go, that's an ugly side. And I don't want to, I don't want to use that for my art or even acknowledge that it's there.

1:48:16But I think it's definitely the better way to go is to actually work with it. You know that one friend who somehow knows everything about money? Yeah. Now imagine they live in your phone. Say hey to experience your big financial friend. It's the app that helps you check your FICO score, find ways to save and basically feel like a financial genius. And guess what? It's totally free. So go on. Download the experience app. Trust me. Having a BFF like this is a total game changer. A lot of comics die of drug overdoses. It's like not these days as much. It seems like there's now like the healthy comics.

1:48:57You're a little and I don't know what the numbers are compared to music, like rock rock musicians or something. But if I compare it like science or I compare it like law, okay, one could say, you know law offices, there used to be a lot of drug use, especially in big cities and this kind of stimulants. But let's just focus on comedy for the moment. Do you think that comedy pulls from a group that has a larger percentage of people that are just struggling with inner turmoil? And they rely on substances to kind of manage or are the substances part of the creative process for people. Writers too, I mean, used to be that many writers were drinkers.

1:49:36If you ever want to like a like a voyage through alcoholism, read about the habits of writers. Yeah. Not all of them, but many of them drank a lot. A lot, a lot. Yeah. Fedamine sometimes, but it was like drinking, it was like part and parcel with the writers life. Sadly, that's not the case now. But yeah, what are your thoughts about substances and comedy and comics? I think it's a combination of things. I feel like, you know, a lot of comedians like that world pulls from certainly people with traumatic backgrounds. There's a lot of mental health issues with comedians. There's a lot of clinically depressed comedians.

1:50:11There's comedians that come into it with like severe anxiety, for instance, severe depression, different mental health things. So usually even outside of comedy, if you're talking about people with this type of mindset, you know, these issues, substances kind of come with that. People trying to regulate and deal with those issues. To also, you know, throw some more gas on that. You're talking about an environment that is a night life environment where these things are readily available. And it can, you know, it can be fun. It can make you feel like you're you're helping your art form by partaking in these things.

1:51:01And then it's really just like, with most things, you just kind of, you see that some people go, oh, it's getting right now, it's getting in the way. And they kind of acknowledge that like I'm better off without this. And then some people are just too far gone in it, right? Where they just, they, they're addicts. They become, we have a lot of addicts in comedy. It's just one of those factors. Like you just, you see it a lot, people that are, are complete hardcore addicts. So that coupled with mental health things and, and the fact that we're, we're, we're up late and we're with people that are also into night life.

1:51:36I think all that together, you get a lot of substance abuse. A lot. Why is cynicism so unfunny? Is it, I mean, I feel like cynicism presented in the right way, like a cynical person can be funny. I think what problem with, with cynicism is that it's, it's really not ultimately there's nothing hopeful in it. Cynicism takes away any feeling that like things could get better. Yeah, like in the world of improv, the yes and, yeah, I feel like cynicism like shuts it down. Well, that's true. In, in the case of, I mean, saying like some people have this cynical kind of take on things that are still like funny people.

1:52:25Yeah, if you negate a thought and improv, the whole thing is over, just dies. You know, if you're like, it's hot. And like, I'm cold. You're like, okay, like, we're not really going to do this then. You kind of have to like add to it. But that's interesting. Yeah, I mean, if you're, if you're a cynical, like a truly a cynical person, because I guess the thing that you find in comedy is there's a lot of like fo emotion, right? Like the foe angry. But you know, I mean, like you put on this thing to sell your bit. You sell an emotion with it too. So somebody can like manipulate that cynicism with humor.

1:53:03But I think if you're genuinely a cynical person, what you are really is usually someone that like actually people don't want to be around, right? Like the very genuinely cynical person, another way to describe them is just negative and that toll buzzkill. Yeah. So you just kind of go like, I don't want to be around that. I think ultimately the best mode to be in for comedy is like you kind of actually want to be like inclusive. You want, you know, I mean, you're kind of like right. You're saying things that people want to not along with. And if you're just like, shit's not going to work out, it never does.

1:53:43And then was like, this is fucking fun, man. Like this is really funny. So that that probably I have some factor in it. I mean, yeah, you learn early on, at least I felt like it, that there's these really cynical comics. But the thing is I'm not talking about like the foe thing in a performance, like they're just like that. And you can feel the energy vortex that they are. And you kind of go like, I got to like, not be around this guy. Right. Because early on, especially, you rely so much on hope. The fact that you signed up to do this thing that, you know, on paper, it seems insane. Like you're going to tell jokes for a living, because we're out of your mind.

1:54:28I messed with people would say to me like, they're like, be crazy. I don't say it worked out. I mean, I got very lucky in that it worked out. And you work very hard. I did work hard. I worked, I did work very hard at it. But that is a thing where you go like, oh, this is an insane path kind of to go down. Like I can't have the guy who's next to me, who's also a comedian being like, this shit, you know, they're never going to pick us. They're never going to, this shit never works out. You're like, I can't have that mantra in my head all the time. And you have to like, part ways with those people.

1:55:04Because they are like a virus, you know, they're a virus. Like so, yeah, you're you're right in observing like, it's not funny. I think it's more like that it's just, it's not productive to be around truly cynical people. Along the lines of what we're calling emotional contagion. I realized I'm not aware of any kind of like duet comics. I know it sounds kind of silly. But in every other genre like with music, right? People play alone. They play with a band. They go like together like you offset voices.

1:55:40I mean, they're a number of the calling to duet, which sounds so silly, but you get the idea. Yeah. That they're the one that you're you're resonating with and that you're you're playing off of and they're they're riding with you. Because I've had the experience of going to the comedy store. I was there last year Tim Dylan did a bit. Well, he went out for like 20, he came out for 20 minutes and just murdered. And some of that's in his his recent special. Just murdered. There was just and you're like crescendo the whole crowd and then just like in typical Tim when I was like, walk down. You're like, whoa.

1:56:17And then you feel like you were part of something. Even though you were a passive recipient of what was going on or participant. So maybe that's where there it is. Have there ever been two people that get up there and kind of like, we're together. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And do it well. Yeah. There's a couple twins that do that. Okay. Yeah. That's a good observation that it is like the audience is the other participant. Right. It's you and the the but then like the Lucas brothers and the Sklar brothers are they're both their twin brothers. And they go up there and because I'm you've probably done something about the twin phenomena.

1:56:50Like how these guys operate both of these sets of twins together is it is like an experience where you're like, whoa, the way they don't go like always like set up punch like the set up sentence can come half out of one brother and the and it's seamless. Like it's like it's like when you hang out with you're hang out with twins and they really answer in unison even though they're not looking at each other and they're saying like the same thing. Like that's how these guys work on stage and it is, you know, it gets you where you like you have questions afterwards. Like you guys just like how did you set that up because it's it's so seamless and they're literally like going back back like back and forth back and forth and it feels like you had to go, hey, when I say and make sure you but it's another level beyond that like they really flow even their talk over each other feels like it's perfectly done like this.

1:57:50You're hearing the end of this guy sentence. The next guy steps on top of it but you hear him clearly and back and forth. I have to check it out. Those guys are like it is like a phenomenon to watch them to watch them work. It's really it's really really cool. I'm coming to the conclusion that by being a audience member in comedy you one is experiencing a kind of an empathy with what the the comic is experiencing. I mean that's kind of where we're getting here. I like I didn't plan this out but you know you have to feel it. It's got to be real for the for the comic. The audience consents that the delight, the the silliness that you're bringing to it like so much of that is in the in the audience's nervous system as they're getting it and it it's clear to me that like comedy is the one way.

1:58:41I mean you say it's about music but like you said so different because so much of it seems spontaneous. It does and I also feel like you know that buddy Kirk Fox he always a great comedian. He always says this thing like when he's on stage is like I plan on being open inviting you know hoping to leave the stage a better you know maybe leave the room a better place like but this thing about being open inviting vulnerable is like it's a very real thing like you you learn it as you do it. You start off pretty much operating in fear as a standup right you're terrified you're terrified that it's you're not going to do well.

1:59:19The longer you do it you get more comfortable being up there. You realize that if you're vulnerable if you're willing to be vulnerable which takes like effort and some you know some like courage. The audience senses this on an unspoken level and we'll go with you more places and we'll definitely laugh more and we'll be like basically be on your side right. If you don't learn to do that it's a different type of performance. You're basically like going up there with like I'm the boss you know like if you're going up there like I'm telling you what's up they still might laugh at things but they don't leave going like I care for this guy or I empathize with him and if you can learn to be vulnerable on stage your performances will get exponentially better and honestly you'll you'll get way crazier laughs.

2:00:12So interesting. The reason I love comedy so much is that A it lets me forget about the outside world. Yeah well hearing about the outside world and I think stage comedy is especially powerful and before we sat down and have this conversation we were talking about how like some people think you know they're like oh my friend is super funny way funnier than any of the comics but like a professional athlete or a non professional athlete in this case can they do it on stage. Can they can they do the dance? That's the thing. Yeah that is that is the the main question is because sometimes like I told you people will be like you know my friend Greg is hilarious he's like one of the five he's funnier than any of those guys on stage and you're like I believe you and you might hang out with him and be like just do it is hilarious like he's really funny.

2:01:04The difference is that can he do can he be that funny when it's just him with a microphone in front of people and and and take who he is in real life and be that on stage. It's ultimately the goal for every comedian like they say that like the longer you do stand up your goal is to be who you are off stage on stage right like it's because you it's impossible when you start when you start you are funny with your friends and you get on stage and you know you kind of freeze and you're you're trying to like convey this is who I am because you're what you're doing is you're going this is how I see things that's what your that's what your performance is like this is funny to me I'm gonna tell you how I see it and that's why it's funny some guys that are are women I'm telling like just people that are very very funny off stage just they can't do that to an audience they're just they're funny to be around in life but they're not performers I mean there's an element to it that is like can you get up in front of strangers and make them laugh they don't know you you have to convey who you are in a moment and make them laugh that's a different thing it's it's not unlike a guy that kills it at the YMCA when you play ball and it's like okay well like let's put you in an NBA arena right like can you actually play with these guys it's a it's a totally different thing look some can't everybody who ends up being a good a good standup was super funny to somebody off stage years ago right they just worked at it and they were able to translate some people just can't translate do you think it helps to really like people as a as a general group you know like you're trying to entertain people you're trying to be entertained by your own entertainment like do you think you need to like humans that's an interesting question I thought I could answer that quicker and I started to think about it because I started to think about the fact that like so many comedians I know like so many go like God I hate people so much you know I mean I'll frame it a little differently than my theory as to one of the one of the main reasons why Rogan is the top podcast in the world there are several reasons I believe his work ethic etc but is because he has lots of different kinds of friends and he can sit down intellectuals he can sit down with comics he can sit down with carol fighters yeah he likes the understanding and communication with different kinds of people and when you know a little bit about him like his his life is filled with these people outside of the studio so he's very comfortable in the presence of like anyone you put anyone in front of him yeah and he can be genuinely interested in learning from them right and sharing with them and I'm really curious guy so you can't you can't fabricate that you can't manufacture that I agree whereas some podcasters they're not that interested in what other people have to say so they they're not the best interviewers unless it's someone like directly within their genre of interest this is that's a good observation so as a comic I guess it depends on the range of topics that you explore in your comedy perhaps yeah I don't think you can hate humanity and be a good comedian right I think what like for sure you have to genuinely love making people laugh if you're going to be like successful at it you have to have an obsession with doing that like a literal obsession because you go through these periods on your journey of stand -up of being like hey I I don't have rent money I can't you know I can't pay for anything and you have the option you want to go get a job and you're like no I'm going to keep doing like you're obsessed you're obsessed with it so much that you're giving up things that people would otherwise in your position be doing in life because you just are so in love with writing and performing jokes like you know you have an obsession I do think you have to on some level though like I'm thinking about it love people because you're if you love making people laugh you enjoy people you know you could still be because so many comics are so bothered by so many things that people do you know that's like a very normal like I'm very much like I fucking can't stand these but you know I mean like always just like look at this dipshit he's bringing fucking eggs on the plane like you know like you just like tuna yeah he was like you asshole you're like the tougher wear on the plane eat that shit at the gate so like you know we're always like you know I mean you're always just like complaining complaining is part of being a stand -up you're funny if you if you never complain about anything you're probably not funny you know I mean it's just like humanity too much yeah I feel like if here's the thing if you go I'm good with whatever you're not a funny person you can you're funny if you have a you either love or hate something that can be funny you can love this and it could be funny you could hate it and that'd be funny if you're like I mean I'm fun the best not fun my response doesn't do to it doesn't do anything in stand -up yeah so but like I think somebody that complains about people can be very funny you just you can't be like all people everywhere I can't stand but that that would be too extreme there are all sorts of theories about how people's kind of childhood issues or just their fundamental struggle like feeds their art in incredible ways I think I saw an interview with Jim Carrey who admittedly I don't know much about his comedy I so I was so busy in school when he was kind of through his reign of physical comedy movies I've never seen dumb and dumb or I've never seen the matrix I've never seen goonies sorry I just have and I love stand by me I love other movies but I need to see those movies I just I'm busy I'm trying I got a lot of money you know I just admitted that I never I've never seen Braveheart and I've never seen Gladiator that was amazing yeah and I guess what I'm not gonna see him really no all right I'm just not not gonna see I'm not gonna see clearly I'm just knowing a little bit about your children and the fact that they're related to you I'm not gonna try and push you to do anything because clearly you guys are stubborn yeah um so the question I have after seeing this Jim Carrey thing he said you know his the reason he did comedy is he wanted to make people laugh to forget about their their struggles I hit a sit chronically ill mother and used to like throwing self down the stairs as a kid like where it's out I believe him so physical comedy became his thing how much do you do you think that really successful comedians tap into sort of a fundamental quest to resolve something um you know you're trying to whatever it is fill in the blank I don't want to fill in blanks yeah yeah yeah no I think it's I mean I can speak for myself I think in my own in my own case I was the new kid a lot right I was I was I was that I went to one school for first grade one for second and third a different one for fourth oh a different one for fifth and sixth a different one for seventh and eighth a different one for ninth and I switched again in ninth grade so I was a new kid all those times and I felt like whenever I arrived and I you kind of like over time go like you start to develop this muscle for like how am I gonna get someone to like me and it was like try to make them laugh right like that became a thing is try to make them laugh I think for me personally there's also this just my own insecurities I think I felt like uh if I got enough people to laugh and if I became successful at making people laugh and like people acknowledged it that I would no longer feel these insecurities and it doesn't happen they stick with you and thank goodness because it sounds like it's the it's the fuel for your art I think it probably is I mean I just remember thinking like you know if I were to be like had a special and I got paid well then I wouldn't have any self doubts anymore or like you know I mean like you think that like then I'll be I'll feel fulfilled and then you get the thing and you're like yeah no it's it's the same it's it didn't go I mean you you start to address it in other ways because you just realize that the accomplishment or whatever isn't the answer to that thing but it is a thing that makes you you think that it will make you feel complete right and um it's not the case um and I think I do think that like being a new kid a lot is something that I'll probably never shake that kind of memory of just it's you know when you're a kid your social acceptance is so dominating it's different as you get older I think you know you're not you're not like so concerned with like being socially accepted everywhere and you have a family and you're just like this is my my group but as a kid it's like it's kind of everything you know and being new every time like every new school year is like that's kind of it's kind of traumatizing yeah so it's the friction that creates the spark I think so and so you don't want to do too much therapy and resolve it I mean I'm seriously speaking I mean I've done so much yeah same it doesn't never go away I yeah it helps you know it helps in that like you have certain awareness of things now certain dots get connected I love I think therapy is phenomenal I would not have traded any of the therapy that I had I'm a huge advocate for it and I think it's great um yeah it doesn't you don't go like same thing like now I'm done everything's fine like it doesn't work like that but I was taking Jordan's competitive nature away you wouldn't want that no that was that that was the friction that created the yeah the phenomenon that is a lot of comedian I'm speaking I spoke of myself I think a lot of us fall under the like the banner of it to put it simply please like me you know I mean like you just go please please like I want you to like me because that's what you are when you're a a new kid and that's what you are when you walk into a room and you know you just go like I just want people to like me and and a lot of comics might not admit it like that but it's definitely the case you're just you want to be liked sounds pathetic I think but it's true no I don't think it sounds pathetic it sounds incredibly open and honest and I think it's going to be very helpful for people who seek to be comedians and just for people generally trying to think about how they're their challenge that inner friction can can create amazing things yeah and you've been to do it over and over again so maybe you almost got me to cry we talked about you almost got me to keep going no no no keep changing topic what's happening now what's next well it really like I know people use this expression but it really truly was a dream come true to make the series like for real you know I made no secret about it that like the reason I moved to LA was not to be a stand -up comedian it was to like make movies and stuff like that's what I wanted to do so like getting the opportunity to make the show it felt like I got paid to make like 15 many movies for the series and I mean I've never had a more fulfilling kind of creative experience like from writing to producing it to you know being in the edits and seeing this thing come together so for me it's like it's such a thrill to have that experience and to be able to put that out as like something that I made with with a bunch of great people the difference stand -up is like you're alone in like on a show or a movie you're with like a hundred other people and it was it was an awesome experience and I get to do some more of it so I get to do like a movie this summer and another show I got asked to develop so I mean I'm like over the moon that I get to do these things it really it's like I get to do them 20 years after I thought I would do them but it's I'm super grateful to have the experience so yeah I'm most excited that I get to keep pursuing that because I feel like it's been in my head this whole time and now I actually get to act on it.

2:13:26Well listen I'm so grateful that you came here to share with us about your process and we talked about the art and science of comedy and humor. I hope it was good man. I loved it. Okay. It was excellent because you share so openly and you you know pull pull back the curtain on your process and and comedy in general and I love what a deep thinker you are and at the same time how much you just pour yourself into your craft and enjoy it. Thank you. Your reflections are really appreciated and I'm a fan. I'm also proud to have you as a cousin. And look I look to you as somebody who really understands how to also balance work and family and merge the the insanity of life into a craft and and people really I can just say I speak for many many people very confidently on this.

2:14:16People can really feel your benevolence even when you're pointing out like we did like the darkness and the and the ridiculousness of the human experience. So you make our lives better and so grateful you came out. Well that's that's very kind of you. I'm also like I should say I'm you know I'm I don't know if enough people tell you but I'm also very honestly proud of you for like what you've done and thank you. You know being a a teacher is one thing but being able to teach so many people and share like I always feel like the most generous person is the person who doesn't hoard information. It's a natural human instinct where people have information about something and they just go I'll keep this to myself.

2:14:54And so the fact that you share you teach so much you know I pick up things for you from you all the time and so many people do and then it's become this thing where you know now people are like what are you fucking listening to Curement? You're like actually yeah I am like my my wife's like what do Curement tell you to fucking take his shit right now? I'm like yes. No but I mean it's it is great that you you don't you don't hoard information you you share it and I think it helps a lot of people. Thank you it's a labor of love and for people that know me as you do it's the same on camera and off camera so you're a great role model to me I'd love to have you back to continue the conversation.

2:15:29I would love to we'll do a five hour one next time yeah like it and I'm going to finish the rest of of bad thoughts. Please do. It's amazing. Yep thanks so much. All right Tom thanks so much. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Tom Segura. To find links to Tom's work please see the show note captions. I should point out that bad thoughts is not suitable for children. If you're learning from Endor and join this podcast please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple and on both Spotify and Apple you can leave us up to a five star review and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

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