Tools for Overcoming Substance & Behavioral Addictions | Ryan Soave

25:29I mean, just make sense from a neural perspective. So I wonder whether or not this definition of addiction or habit -forming behaviors or or dependence could be expanded to include the ratio of gravitational pull versus how it makes other things seem. And obviously, I don't believe that we should remove technology. I think technology is wonderful. But I could imagine that for a young brain and for an older brain, I mean, I just ask Do you find any adults or do you encounter many adults who are addicted or have a habit of excessive online shopping? I mean, it's so easy to buy stuff online. I mean, just the barriers to entry are so low.

26:16Yeah, absolutely. So does that make sense? Like this contrast between richness and dullness that exacerbates the dullness, the more that you engage in some behavior? Yeah, and I want to be clear. You know, while I said it's It's not necessarily a problem for everyone. I believe it can absolutely, the video games as an example can absolutely be addictive. I mean, there's been studies that have shown that, you know, it's impacting the brain in the same way as a lot of drugs are. You know, I've worked with kids who were video games were taken away and they were like, and their Wi -Fi was shut down and they were somehow stealing some console.

26:55and like in the bushes near another home, somehow pirating their Wi -Fi to play the video games during the day. I mean, it's like an attic. Like a crack addict, you know, or, you know, in the streets. It's a kid, like a, you know, it's probably 15 or 16 year old kid. So they took away his Wi -Fi and video games and he's hiding, I'm chuckling, but it's terrible. I mean, you can only imagine what's going on inside that kid that they can't, as you've mentioned, before I handle the discomfort of this thing that's like their medicine. It's the thing that makes them feel good. And we have these adolescent treatment centers and these kids come in and they'll be very dysregulated.

27:35Even if they've been off of drugs or usually it's a lot of marijuana these days and they start to clear up from that but they're extremely dysregulated, agitated, reactive. And after sometimes three, four weeks, we start to see a completely different person and then one of the things I'm convinced is that they haven't been with their phones. They haven't been on social media. They haven't been playing video games. And I'm not saying the answer is to take that away, but you can start to see the impact that that has on them. You know, they're so anxious about not being connected in that way or being, I would imagine in that universe that you're talking about that's hot fudge sunday all the time.

28:16Like who doesn't want to eat hot fudge sunday all the time? Well, and then hot fudge sunday doesn't seem to taste so good. Not any need to eat more hot fudge sunday. Yeah, I mean, that's the dopamine dynamic stuff that thank goodness on a Lemke author of dopamine nation made so clear that those big fast inflections in dopamine very quickly lead to smaller and smaller peaks in dopamine from the same behavior or substance. And then the trough of low that comes after is just immense. In fact, there's just what I the other day before I forget there was a post on exa of a guy he sold his company for a billion plus dollars.

28:50And he he was expressing the extreme depression of not knowing what to do with himself now. And everyone will say, poor guy, right? I don't illustrate that point to make it a point about billionaires or not, but it wasn't the pursuit of pleasure. It was the pleasure of pursuit that drives dopamine. He gets the goal. There's no more pleasure from pursuit because he's not pursuing anything anymore. And you think, how could that possibly be? He can buy anything he wants. But the whole point is that dopamine isn't deployed for the reward. It's deployed for the pursuit of the reward. So that trough is a very real thing.

29:27Yeah, and in the trough, you're still not going to go back to a plate of broccoli. You're going to keep going after the hot -fudge Sunday feeling, even though the hot -fudge Sunday isn't giving it to you anymore. Well, that's an extremely important point that people are chasing a feeling. And I had a friend who thankfully is a recovered addict. I obviously won't disclose who this is. A former methamphetamine addict. Very successful in life, but had a serious meth issue. Got sober and contacted me not long ago, requesting some support because they were thinking about abusing Adderall. And we had a conversation, fortunately, they didn't do this.

30:08It's doing great. Ghost of meetings has a sponsor. It's taking care of that. But the description of why they were pursuing this idea of abusing Adderall was this recollection of a feeling. He kept talking about like, I just remember that feeling. It was, you know, and everything felt, and he was talking about something that I can't relate to because I've never done meth, have no intention of doing meth. But it's almost like it was like a love affair that had been spectacular that he was missing this person, but it was a thing. It sounded like love, like I missed that feeling. I think that's a very important point because I see people as having spiritual relationships with alcohol and drugs.

30:55I mean, they use them as something that makes them feel connected. They feel whole. I mean, what is alcohol called? Spirits. It's something that can allow them even for a period of time to feel the way that maybe they want to feel or not feel the way that they don't want to feel. Can we dissect that a little bit? To feel the way they want to feel versus not feel the way they don't want to feel. I remember reading Augustin Burrow's book Dry, he's a recovered alcoholic. And there's this paragraph in there where he talks about his first drink of alcohol. call. And I'm going to get the exact wording wrong.

31:37But it went something like, you know, on that first drink, he felt, he's in the first person, he's saying, I felt it mesh with my blood and my physiology and my physiology felt correct for the first time. And I thought, oh my goodness, like I certainly don't have that relationship to alcohol, but I have friends who are serious alcoholics, fortunately now sober, who describe alcohol that way. From And the first drink, it was like, this is, they say, this is me. It's like they're finding themselves. And that's very different than avoiding the way they felt previously. Most of them didn't pick up a drink the first time because they were trying to find that person or because they were trying to avoid something else.

32:19It was because it was booze at a party or booze at home. Even the people that, like him that are talking about alcohol like that, and I've heard the story thousands of times, you know, from people that never read that book, you know, that that's how they felt. They couldn't have been using it most of the time to get away or to move away from how they're feeling because they didn't even recognize that's how they're feeling. That was just the world they were in. You know, we're especially, a lot of times this is kids and adolescents who are that's the first time they're drinking and they they don't realize that that they could feel the way that they're feeling.

32:58You know, the way that we grow up are just the waters we swim in. We don't often know that there's a difference between who we are and how we can be. And to be able to a lot of people, even the first time they'll do it, and it's not always like that for everybody, right? Some people just are using it socially and then later on, when there are stressors, realize that I can use this to medicate as well, but the ones that are having the relationship that you just described is, you know, they didn't even know. They had no idea that life or their emotional state or their physiological state could be different than it was.

33:38So how do you persuade somebody that it's a good idea to take that away from themselves? Because I imagine some of the first thoughts that go through their mind include, I can't imagine life without that feeling. You know, St. Augustine said, and I'm not gonna get it exactly right, but he said something like, well living depends on reordering your loves. And he was talking about people living with a disordered life. And the question at beg is, what are you loving the most? And his argument I think was, whatever you're loving the most becomes your God, your higher power. You know, if I'm loving money the most, if that's the most important thing to me, then money is my higher power.

34:27The thing is money will fail me, right? Like you just talked about, like the guy could get a billion dollars and want to kill himself, right? Or if I put my relationship at the, you know, the, if I said, you know, the most important thing to me is that my wife is happy, you know? and that's my most important thing. That sounds great, but she's not gonna be happy all the time. And when she is, I'm gonna feel great, and when she's not, I'm gonna feel like I'm doing something wrong. Are we making sex the most important thing? Are we making, and his argument was love God first and then do as you will, find the highest power.

35:07Because these powers that we're putting up there, like money, sex, food, all things that aren't problematic, We need them. They only become problematic when they're problematic, right? When they're when we're making them that thing that's going to solve our problems. What about kids? I know a number of people who are excellent parents who are super devoted to their kids and they say like my kids are my life. My kids are my kids are everything. That might just be language, right? They could also have a relationship to a higher power. But do you see people suffering by virtue of overemphasizing their kids or you mentioned spouse, but as a priority in their life?

35:53Yeah, and it's great that you made a distinction about just being language because people can say those things. My kids are very important to me. Probably, I would say one of the most important things in my life is to be a father. right? But if the energy in the house again and again is that my kids are my life, what are, what a burden that is for that child? That means that, you know, that child might, in those instances, show up in a way that they need to be happy, they need to perform, they need to, they can't show sadness, they can order for, that becomes their job to make their parents okay.

36:35And can you imagine that kid later grown up looking for a partner and the expectation on that partner or the expectation on themselves just based on that role internalization of you know like that they're the center of the universe or that maintaining this beam of love from the other person is essential or else it feels life threatening. Yeah I mean it's a it's a covert form of abuse to to use our children to meet our needs. You know, we're there to meet their needs, depending on their age, right? I mean, we're gonna, you have an infant, you're their highest power. You have to do it. They can't survive without you.

37:17You know, they can't feed themselves and you carry them all the time, right? And then, you know, eventually they start crawling and walking and you carry them more than you don't and then eventually they're walking all the time and you're carrying them just a little bit and, you know, then you're not carrying them anymore. If you're still carrying them all the time when they're 16 or 17, that's a problem. But when we're using them to meet our needs again and again, now it becomes their job to care for us. And most parents that do this, and I see this all the time, are not setting out and saying, I'm going to use my child to make me happy.

37:54They really have the best intentions. And it probably comes out of however, they were shaped growing up and now their family was shaped growing up. But, you know, I see this, you know, with my kids, you know, sometimes I come home to their six and three and I come home from work and they're like, daddy, daddy, daddy, and they're running to me and they jump on me and it feels amazing. And other times I walk in and like they've got a show on or something and I'm like, hey kids and they're like, they don't even say anything. Now, that doesn't feel great, but what I know is that doesn't mean they don't love me, right?

38:27If every day I came home and they were like, in the middle of the sudden, I forced them to get up and give me a hug. You do this once. It's not going to be a problem necessarily. But if I did that every day and now I need them to give me a hug in order for me to feel safe and comfortable coming in the home or just feel happy, they're going to start having the job of, we got a hug daddy in order for him to have a nice evening. That's a big job for a little kid to have. And I see that that play out a lot in the people that come to us, and that they've unconsciously been assigned to these roles in childhood, like, you know, they're the hero of the family.

39:07You know, we can use those, the terms or the scapegoat, or they're the, you know, but really, what was the job that they were given? You know, it's my job to take care of mom and dad. You know, maybe they were in the middle of the relationship or, you know, mom and dad are fighting all the time. But kids are often assigned these roles early on and then they don't know how to shed them later on And so then they just use that role later in life I mean my field is full of people who are assigned roles, you know Therapists and nurses and things like that. You know, we want to care for people But it's hard to parse some of that stuff apart You know because we don't want to blame parents for how their kids end up But when we're doing work with our clients we want to understand the patterns that were developed, not to blame them, but to start understanding what were the systemic challenges in the family system so that we can, you know, develop and deploy systemic solutions for them.

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43:08Again, that's drinkelement .com slash Hubertman to claim a free sample pack. There's this thing that happens around any conversation about addiction, where at some point any logical listener starts to say, okay, well, and it sounds like everyone's addicted to something and it's so hard to stay right in the, you know, between the lane lines of healthy and healthy because yeah, I like, I'm not speaking for myself because I'm not a drinker, but I like a drink at the end of the day. It helps me relax, it makes me a better parent, it makes me a better spouse, and I like it. Is it my spiritual higher power?

43:44No, but I like it. Would I take 30 days off? Prefer not to, but I'm not addicted. You know, but then you think, okay, well a kid that likes playing video games, it lets him connect with his friends. He's doing it a bit excessively, but is he addicted? You know, okay. Obviously, if it's harming people's profession, it's harming the relationships in very overt ways, then we place into the category of addiction. But there's this thing that happens in these conversations around addiction where people start to go, okay, it sounds like I can't really enjoy anything that much because then it takes over everything.

44:18Like, I'll come clean. I've worked anywhere from 10 to 16 hours a day, five to six days a week on average. right, since I was 19. Am I a work addict, work a holic? Maybe, but I love my work and it's done wonderful things for my life and I have a life that I wouldn't trade for anything. Did I miss out on a lot of things? Probably. But I also love the life I've lived and that I continue to live. And a lot of that comes from the relationships and experiences I've had through work. So, you know, at some point, this is where diagnostic to criteria become handy. But I do like the fact that we have a litmus test now.

45:01Could you take 30 days away from it and not completely lose your mind? Or could you just take 30 days away from it? If I didn't work for 30 days, that would be very difficult for me. But I could do it. So how should we frame this thing of addiction? And so that people can ask themselves, like, do I have it? Or does it have me? I mean, I think how are you using it and what is it impacting if anything? But to be able to be honest with yourself about it, it's easy to say, be honest with yourself about it, but it's very hard to be honest with ourselves. That's where being in relationship with others, sharing what you're experiencing.

45:39If you're taking 30 days off, really communicating to somebody else, whether it's a therapist or a trusted friend, how am I thinking about this? You know, am I waking up every day, wishing I could be doing this other than some, am I sitting in a business meeting completely dissociated from what's going on because I'm really focused on that I'm not gambling or that I'm not drinking. You know, you've got to be able to look at what it's impacting in the way that we're thinking and the way that we're feeling. Can I ask a question about how it's impacting things? because one thing I've observed in myself and in others is that sometimes behaviors that if we were to just look at through a kind of tunnel vision, you'd say, wow, like this person just like works a lot or this person exercises a lot.

46:28But it provides energy that feeds a bigger ecosystem, you know, gives me a sense of purpose. A great relationship through my work and relationships that are not through my work, but you know, it sits not as my higher power, but I have it at the center of my life and a bunch of other things wake out from it. And to remove that thing would be to disrupt the whole web. I think that sometimes what scares people, especially again, I don't, I can't relate to alcohol specifically, but my friends who have made the decision to try and quit or quit drinking alcohol, for them it's like that their ability to socialize, the lack of anxiety while they're intoxicated, knowing there's something to do.

47:09for them is you know as opposed to like what they would fill that space with so sometimes it I feel like these Addictive behaviors fit into a larger ecosystem so that it masks the disc that any dysfunction But it's but it has this again gravitational pull So that you know it gets to bigger questions of like How are we supposed to live our life and I like this quote from saying Augustine? You know that a life well lived as a constant Reordering of our loves. Yeah, yeah Something like that. So it gets to these questions of like, what is a good life? This is a great discussion point that people will come in and say, I just want to be happy.

47:47I just want to be a piece. First thing we have to ask them is, what does that mean? We have to define it. A lot of times maybe they're saying that happiness is kind of the absence of all this bad stuff. Or that peace is, everything outside of me is going okay. Everything is fine. You know, we've got to really explore with them. What, how would they know when they got there? You know, what a balanced life is going to be different for everybody. And especially like with behavioral addictions, you know, it's not about necessarily removing those forever. In fact, a lot of those, we can't remove food addiction.

48:23You can't remove food. I mean, the things around sex addiction, you know, you're not going to, I suppose someone could not have sex, but really a lot of that is about connection and relationship and love and intimacy, even gambling. People don't have to gamble, but you're dealing with money. And you've got to touch it and spend it and be around it. Yeah, buying a house is an investment. Or a gamble sometimes, as we've seen. And we've got to look at how we're using these things. And going back to drugs, you look at, we've got pain medication. aside from being abused, right? We've got opioid pain medication, and then we've got heroin.

49:07And both of them either came from our derivatives of the poppy, which is a beautiful flower, right? So we've taken this flower and we've been able to make these drugs, and one of them, of course, prescription pain abuse and fentanyl that we see is, you know, it can be deadly, but I think an argument it could be made that it's probably saved more lives than it's killed when used appropriately. We're able to have surgeries that we probably never would have been able to have before because of the medications that people can use. And then we've got people who are either abusing that or taking heroin and dying, you know, having a, you know, we started calling it the opioid epidemic, I think 50 ,000 people died at like surpassed the number of the people in the U .S.

49:52that died by car accidents last year was something like 100 ,000, right? We're 100 ,000 people at least. You know, it's more than doubled. You know, now it's in a lot of different things. There's a lot of kids that are taking something that they think is a less harmful pill, like a valium or Xanax and it's got fentanyl in it, and they die. You know, it's doubled since we started calling it an epidemic. And of course, that 100 ,000 doesn't include all of the other drugs and alcohol. And, but, you know, it goes back to how did we use it? You know, we manipulated this flower in a way that we can save lives and kill or die.

50:33That's a more extreme example, but how are we using the things in our life? You know, are we using exercise as a way to completely, you know, to dissociate from things? If I take away that exercise, am I going to fall apart? Am I not going to be okay? You know, and that doesn't mean don't ever exercise again, but understand like if I were to stop for a week, do I fall into a deep depression? Not everybody is going to do that, but if somebody's oriented in the way that it is a problem, that may happen for them. And then it begs the question like, what am I using this for? What I think is so important about treatment for addiction and then recovery from addiction is that, you know, at first it's about eliminating something.

51:21It's about moving away from something. But that's not sustainable. Just to cut something out, because it's being used for something, to give them that sense of relief or that sense of peace or that sense of connection or spiritual or otherwise. You've got to eventually start building towards something. What's the life I'm going to create? If you look at the 12 steps, the last part of the 12 steps is to practice these principles and all our affairs, which means go out and build a life. You know, don't find yourself really small. That we were talking beforehand. There was a, I think he was a biophysicist.

52:01I can't remember. Yem Gelanick, he was at Stanford for a bit at the end of his career. And he had done a lot of research on alcoholism. And wrote a book in the 50s or 60s called the disease concept of alcoholism. And out of that book, there was a curve, and you can look this up. It's called the gel -knit curve. I don't think he actually created the curve. It was credited towards him. I think I think even kind of dissociated himself from it, but it came out of his works. And it starts off with at the top, and it's for alcoholism, like where people start drinking. And it's in the crucial phase as they start drinking more.

52:36And at first, when people are drinking more, their tolerance increases, but they start to experience some problems. They're hungover, they're late for work, they're having arguments, but it's nothing that drastic. And as they keep drinking and descending down this curve, actually they enter the, I think it's called a critical phase. And that's where actually tolerance decreases, right? It's, they're dependent on it. They need it just to get by. They need it to get to work. You know, they, they're, they can't keep the job. They can't keep their relationships. Their physical body is starting to fall apart.

53:12They're getting sick because of it. There's a lot of other factors in it. And then they come down to the bottom of this and it's this cycle of drinking and stopping and drinking and stopping, you know, drinking until I can't anymore and physically sick and then going back to it as soon as they can. When those people are able to get treatment and find recovery, now the curve starts to go back up and the recovery side of the curve. And in the beginning, you know, they're not feeling that great. They've lost the thing that helps them get through life. But if they can stay in a contained environment, and that contained environment could be a treatment center or a contained environment, like in a 12 -step program, you know, where they're engaged in something, I don't mean contained by the walls that you're in, but in some sort of, in a community, and they can stay away from it.

54:02eventually they start seeing that they see in others that they can build a life, that they can go after the things that they wanted to go after, and they start finding pleasure from life rather than from the substance. They start to be able to handle the stressors of life. Their tolerance for stress, instead of their tolerance for alcohol building, their tolerance for stress starts to build. And then eventually they're kind of moving towards what we would call in Maso's hierarchy of needs, the self -actualization. You know, they're able to build a life that they never thought they could have before.

54:37You know, hear people say, a life beyond my wildest dreams. You know, and a lot for a lot of those people, that's just that I'm able to meet anything with some sort of sense of peace. And when I'm not, I think recovery is, it's not about finding this issue's the word piece. It's not about finding a sense of peace that you stay in. balance is not, I'm on both feet standing still, balance is like this, right? And as we're taking risks in life as we should to really build awesome lives, sometimes we're going to feel way off -kilter, but the recovery process will be able to recognize when I'm out of balance sooner or out of peace sooner and return to it quicker.

55:15Recover. Again and again. And have the tools to know, what are the emotional conditions that I might be facing on every day. And what am I made of up? Who of am I that might bring to that? So for instance, something I give to a lot of my clients is, we call it the emotional weather forecast. You know, when the first part of this is they've got to really know themselves. And that's something that we see in 12 -step a lot with though. We hear if, you know, people identify their character defects, not everybody I know is familiar with 12 -step, but that's one of the, But as part of identifying your defects, you're also identifying your virtues, right?

55:57Just like a balance sheet. You wanna know your liabilities and your assets. And sometimes those things are, sometimes they change. And if something that's a liability in this situation might be an asset in this situation, right? Like if uncontrolled anger and violence in my home when my kids do something wrong, and I'm not doing this, but is a liability. If my family's attacked, it's an asset. So understanding what these defects in virtue or assets and liabilities are, so that I really know myself. And that can be through a process of sharing with others. And in the 12 step, that's how they do it.

56:41We do it in therapy all of the time to kind of know who I am. You know, actually, there's a line in one of the AA literature that Bill Wilson wrote me, he gives a definition of humility and it goes something like this, that humility is an honest recognition of who and what we've become, followed by a deep desire to become who we can be. And it's not about like that I'm all bad, it's just to note it, to recognize who I am. If I don't know where I'm starting, I can't know, just like finding directions. If I asked, you know, to get directions to the studio and your team started giving me directions from over the canyon, but I was, you know, south of here.

57:27They're going to give me the directions that turn left on this road, right? And I'm going to, I'm not going to know how to get there. I'm not, I'm going to be disoriented. I'm going to feel lost. I got to, it starts with really knowing where I am, who and, who and what I am. And from there, then we can start to build a life. So one of the things I give people a lot is once they kind of understand these assets and, and liabilities of theirs, you know, So to look at each day ahead and say, you know, first we start off with gratitude, you know, it kind of gives a mindset. And gratitude just isn't about being thankful for things.

57:58I really believe gratitude is meeting what is as it is. You know, that I always, when I give people this and when I practice it myself, I try at least to be one of the things I'm grateful for to be something that I'm challenged by. And not just to say, I'm going to learn a lesson from this, but I might not know what that is, but to really express gratitude for some challenge I'm having. So that's kind of a mindset. And then the next thing is just laying out your plans for the day. And not like a detailed calendar, but like, you know, I'm going to take the kids of school, go to work, travel, you know, have a business dinner tonight.

58:35And then, so I kind of know what's happening that day. And then from there, look at what's my emotional state currently? What am I experiencing now? especially if it's like fears, resentments, anger, guilt, shame. It could be something else. I could just be like, I'm feeling, I feel really solid today. But when I can take the what's going to happen today and what I'm already experiencing, I can look at what I'm doing today and think, you know, there's some character liabilities or defects that might come up. Like if I have to travel today and I've got to take three flights instead of one, I can know that if I know myself, I might say I could, I have the ability to become impatient, controlling, and look at my day to say, almost predict what are the emotional disturbances that can happen that day.

59:25And then coupled with the state that I'm in, if I'm already upset about something else, I've got a higher likelihood of going into these reactive patterns that I don't necessarily want to go into. And so, you know, much like going on a trip where I would look and see what the weather's going to be, you know, and if it's going to be, it looks like it's going to be rainy all the whole time in there. I'm going to pack a raincoat. Now that doesn't mean I'm not going to get wet. But once I start getting wet, I can go get my raincoat and put it on. Same thing in this, you know, the last part of it is to look for what I'm going to watch for because of my plans and my emotional state.

1:00:01Now I know that I have to watch for being like maybe short or controlling. I want to watch for these character defects or liabilities. And then what do I want to strive for? I'm going to strive for being patient, tolerant, kind. Now just because I write this down just like the rain jacket, doesn't mean I'm not going to experience these things. But when I can look at like a day as an example, I can break it down in a chunk where, I'm not going to be shocked by I'm being impatient. And as soon as I get impatient, I can remember, oh, this is what I'm looking, this is what I want to watch out for today.

1:00:36What do I need to, and I wanted to strive for being tolerant and patient. So then I can use one of the tools that I might have that I've laid out. It might just be if I'm in the airport, walk away, take a breath. And recognize and remind myself, this is what I'm striving for today. And in this exercise, we're putting out in front of us what we might be experiencing based on what we know about ourselves and what we've learned about ourselves. And when we can do that, that we can start living each day a little bit better, or at least I find this with my clients, that they can chunk it down and say, they're not surprised by these emotional reactions.

1:01:17And like I said earlier, we wanna help people, I try to help people learn how to feel bad, to recognize that, okay, I'm feeling disturbed, I'm in a reaction, let me lean into it rather than run away from it. And we run away from it in different ways. I'm a snapping at the lady at the counter or you know might be someone that now I just totally withdraw and don't say anything. Yeah numbing out is very common. Yeah, I just want to repeat these different categories. A small list of gratitude's including perhaps some things that were grateful that challenge us or things that we've received or whatever happens to be a quick list of gratitude's plan for the day, what the internal emotional weather is, like how am I feeling irritated, rested, whatever, it could be three or four things, what to watch for and what to strive for.

1:02:09I do think it's an extremely useful obviously zero cost, minimal, minimal time investment, protocol for lack of a better word that everyone, not just people who struggle with addiction, but everyone can benefit from because I think we tend to be so conscious of what to look for, what to strive for coming out of a morning journaling or a great night's sleep. But then, you know, it's amazing how by 3 p .m. somebody cuts us off in traffic or we're being bombarded with too many things and all of a sudden we're not necessarily unpeeled but we're not our best self. Do you think there's value in sharing your list with somebody else?

1:02:50connection with others is so important, especially when I share something like this that's vulnerable with them because it's not just about holding me accountable, but now I'm expressing it in a way that others see it and we can have communication with them about, you know, having them share it back with you too. I have like 10 guys that I share this with every day, you know, and not that the way that I do things is the way that everybody should, but I ask other people that I give this to to share it because you know you're you're now expressing it and Expressing something kind of brings it more into existence than if I'm just doing it myself internally and We've got to put these things in front of us because we will forget Very quickly, you know or you said coming out of a morning journaling or meditation session feels great I think most people decide to make a change and then you know on one day and then they don't think about it again and in the way that they thought about it for months, like happens every year on New Year's.

1:03:51They're not putting it out in front of them every day to be a reminder of what I'm going after, what's important to me. And the brain is very different at different times of day and at night, you know, one thing that I subscribe to that separate from this conversation, but perhaps relevant is I don't believe any thoughts that occur between two a .m. and five a .m. But I just don't, whatever comes up, if I happen to wake up in the middle of the night I just don't, I've chosen to not believe those thoughts. I might write something down, I might have an insight that I'm interested in, or something that terrifies me, or whatever, but I just don't believe those thoughts.

1:04:24Because I've had the experience thousands of times of them going back to sleep waking up in the morning, being like, that's ridiculous. It doesn't, that doesn't hold any water anymore. I think we're so vulnerable in the middle of the night, our forebrain shut down, we can't strategize, all our safety mechanisms are, are, you know, at their lowest. and those thoughts just, they don't hold meaning. Now, that's not to say that some night owls might not have some brilliant insights in the middle of the night. So this just relates to me and my schedule. But I do think that we can make a decision to behave one way and do things at 8 a .m.

1:04:58and by 4 p .m. as a neuroscientist, I can honestly say that your brain is not the same brain at 4 p .m. that it was at 8 a .m. It's still you, but it's functioning so differently. What's important, how it orders priorities, how it interprets data, it's not like a computer. It's a dynamic machine. And at different times of day, you're working with a different set of hardware. Literally, certain circuits are more active than others. So I don't believe that we are capable of self -regulating nearly as well as we could, certainly not perfectly. If we don't have a reminder of our best self, our aspirational self, that we carry forward.

1:05:44Whether or not it comes through other people or enforcement or idyllic comes from inside us, but the expectation that we are going to spontaneously and impulsively be our best self is one of the biggest failures I think of education and psychology and medicine. And evidence by the fact that I have many colleagues who are scientists and physicians who have terrible addictions, some are sober, some are not. These are brilliant people who have all the knowledge in the world about the inner working of the mechanisms that make people addicted, et cetera. Anyway, I just, I'm editorializing there a bit, but I feel very passionate about these zero cost tools, but I have to say these tools can make a huge difference.

1:06:32And what do you call this list? What is it? The plan for the day, what is this list? Just like an emotional weather forecast, you know, I mean, call it whatever you want. But I think it can be part of a daily inventory too, where at night you could look at and see how you did. You know, I mean, I think you just talked about being your best self. Like it's a way to kind of define what our best self is that day. You know, because what our best self is is gonna change depending on the circumstances we're in. You know, I've run into problems before where, you know, in my own life where, you know, it's like the weekend and I'm really looking forward and like the weekend's going to be, and I don't, let's say I don't do this actually because it's a Saturday and it's going to be, you know, I'm home and it's going to be amazing.

1:07:14I live with four other people, you know, two of three of which are children. They might have other plans, you know, or someone gets sick and we can't go to the thing that we were going to do and I can find myself, you know, really grumpy and write in those character defects or liabilities. I also think being your best self isn't never engaging in those. It's not never getting angry. I remember a teacher I had was talking about and I can't remember the it was talking about some Indian yoga master you know that the the student asked them like to the to the masters ever get angry and he said of course, but when they get angry, it's like writing on water.

1:07:57It's there and then it's gone. You know, they're not holding onto it. If you try to write on water, those letters are going to disappear right after you write them. You know, that there's there are emotional disturbances that we're going to have and it's part of life we can't ignore them. We should embrace them and lean into them. I mean, I think the real secret to having a really fulfilling life is being able to embrace all aspects of ourself, the light and the shadow. Because we can't just try to run from the shadow and go to the light. It's just, they're hand in hand. In fact, they don't exist without the other.

1:08:33Well, because they're both inside of us, and they're both inside of us. And they both have their purpose. What is the purpose of the shadow in your mind? And for folks that don't know, I mean, the shadow we're using Jungian language here, and there probably will be some folks listening that say, and are thinking themselves, well, I've never suffered from an addiction, et cetera. But what we're really talking about here with this, can we call it an emotional weather map? Sure, that's great. Because I like the idea of a map and the forecast component. Yeah. Because it's not just how do I feel right now.

1:09:01It's how do I feel right now? What's coming and how am I going to prepare? And there's some goal setting in it, but you're not actually writing out your specific goals. Is what am I striving for, I suppose, a goal? But what we're really saying is anyone that's ever gotten anxious, anyone that's ever gotten stressed, anyone that's ever gotten angry, whether or not you yell or not, right? I mean, what you're talking about is a roadmap for being able to navigate the experience of being human, right? Because what we're striving for is not our like specific goals. I'm not striving for like success in this meeting.

1:09:38I'm not striving for making this money today. I'm striving for ways of being. You know how I'm going to be that day in the face of Distressors whether that meeting goes well or not whether I make the money or I don't whether I get the answer that I wanted or I don't that I'm striving for this way of being there's a Line that I heard from a country singer once that I think he heard in a 12 -step meeting that said you know piece is not Finding calmer seas. It's building a better boat So, you know, how are we going to navigate this storm? Not how are we going to avoid the storms? I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

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1:11:31The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by function simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try function, you can go to functionhealth .com slash huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250 ,000 people, but they're offering early access to huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth .com slash huberman to get early access to function. that you alluded to this earlier when talking about balance as a dynamic process, not a static process, that part of peace is knowing that when distress comes, you'll be able to tolerate it.

1:12:17Yeah. As opposed to there's no distress. And I know people like this that are constantly trying to move through the channels of life, create their own little estuaries around things so that there's never any disruption. We want to be able to tolerate that distress enough to make choice and respond rather than react to whatever it is. It doesn't mean that we're not going to navigate out of the storm. I think of it like this. If we go back into our 17 or 1800s when the only way to get from England to America was to navigate or to sail in a wooden sailboat, right? Sail ship, whatever it was called.

1:12:58And let's say we took the most experienced sailor with the best ship. But this time, rather than using his skills of navigation and sailing, he said, the seas are calm and the weather is good. I must be going the right way. But if the seas are rough and the weather is bad, I must be going the wrong way. And every time the seas were calm, the weather is nice. He just kept going in the direction He was, but every time he came across waves and rain, he'd turn. Is he ever going to get there? Potentially, let's say it's calm the whole way, or he might end up navigating all the way down around the South America and then coming back up.

1:13:39Neither one of those is the answer. The answer is that when he meets the storm, he can use his skills of navigation as a sailor and understanding the weather and his experience to say, okay, this is something I navigate through. This is something I navigate around. But he doesn't just react based on the external conditions. And we react constantly to our external conditions based on what we're perceiving is going on. You know, I'll preface this by saying, I think I believe one of our biggest, if not our biggest challenges human beings in our psychology is that we confuse discomfort with threat and respond to discomfort as if it's threat.

1:14:26You know, this goes back I can use the diagnostic criteria for PTSD, not that everybody that experiences this has PTSD, but when you look at the diagnostic criteria, criteria in the DSM -5, which is the fifth version of the, it's the most recent version of the diagnostic manual, it says that the person was exposed to, it's like exposed to death, threat, actual or threatened death, or actual or threatened violence, or actual or threatened sexual violence. And the DSM4, it said real or perceived. And what that means is, we can have a similar or exact reaction to something that is actually happening, like you're attacking me, hopefully you're not gonna attack me, but like you were, as if you threatened to attack me.

1:15:13You know, if I believe that I'm in danger, then I can have the same, I'm gonna have the same fight or flight response or the same reaction in my body as if I am actually in danger. It's interesting that our, I think our legal system recognizes this in that you can be arrested for assault or battery. Battery is, you hit me. Assault is you threatened to hit me or threatened to kill me. We actually, in a way, recognize this idea of perception in our legal system. It's actually, it's also, I believe, what the, forgive me for saying it in this way, but the quote unquote, success of terrorism is it's not that this event happens.

1:15:54It's that we leave that event thinking it's not that those buildings came down as that we think we believe that all of the buildings are going to come down, right? It's terror. I think that because we were talking about addiction and now we're talking about perception of threat and distress, want to make sure that we tie those things back to one another. No, I think this is a very important conversation because at the heart of addiction, but also at the heart of a challenged life, challenging the ways that life shouldn't be challenging, is this lack of distress tolerance. And I have a question about distress tolerance specifically.

1:16:31What can we do to increase our distress tolerance? Like what practices? Maybe we just have to experience distress to know how to navigate distress. Well, we're going to experience distress. We experience it all the time. And I think it's, and you may be able to articulate this even better than I can, but, you know, I think we need to look at stress, right? Not all stress is bad. We need stress. I need stress to move around in this chair. I need to, I need to be able to walk around. My muscles need to tense, and I need that stress. It was at Hanselle's work around you stress and distress. We're going to experience distress.

1:17:07And it's not about avoiding distress. It's, you know, how are we going to walk through that distress? And so I like to break practices down into a couple different ways. So proactive and reactive. Proactive are going to be things that we schedule, you know. I'm going to do, you talked about Yogan -Eedro. We can talk about that a little bit more. You call it the non -sleep, deep rest. Other forms of mindfulness and meditation that actually allow us to raise capacity in our nervous system. going to therapy, coaching, being involved in a community, doing physical exercise. These are things that we're going to schedule, going into the cold plunge, which does allow us to experience something and stay a little bit longer.

1:17:46And it gives us, you know, it's so, we have one at home and when friends come over and use it, it's so funny, because like the first time they're gonna do it and I know you've had a lot of people, we actually, I was at your home a couple years ago and there was a guy who was doing it for the first time And he's like a big, I don't remember this, he's like a big athletic guy and he was freaking out getting into terrified, right? And it's just cold water. There's, it can't, I mean, it could hurt you if you're in there for however long to get hypothermia, but it's not going to hurt you. So having practices like that that allow us to move through that level of fear can translate to a fear or distress, can translate when it comes in real time for something that we, that I know I can walk through this.

1:18:29Yeah, because adrenaline is ubiquitous in stressful circumstances, which is just a bunch of science nerds speak for. The stress response is always an increase in autonomic arousal or alertness, a shrinking of the visual field, an increase in heart rate, a tendency to move. People will say, but I freeze. Actually, the freezing response, this is kind of interesting. My lab studied this. Lindsay Salay published a paper in Nature about this in 2018. She was a graduate student in my lab. The freezing response is an active behavior. Trying to hide from an intruder in your home in the closet, you're trying not to move.

1:19:06So people think, oh, people freeze under stress. No, the freezing response is an active response. You know, the adrenaline dump, as it's sometimes called, is what essentially creates the freeze response. It's why people can't remember things when they get up on stage if they have a fear of public speaking. And I was gonna, I forgot to mention in the cold plunge, Cold water is a highly reliable way to elicit an adrenaline response. It's just a great training for this feels uncomfortable. I want to get out, but I'm going to learn to control my thinking in this uncomfortable circumstance. So that would fit into the proactive, right?

1:19:44So that's something that you can proactively start to be able to manage that adrenaline as you're telling me in the body, right? You're able to manage those feelings. because what is it come down to? It's a it's a these sensations in our body that we're experiencing that feel really uncomfortable. And we might be able to sense them a little earlier. Right. If we have some training, I just want to throw in one little science tidbit as long as we're talking about using cold as a way to manage distress tolerance is that the first 15 to 20 seconds what after the adrenaline response hits and it hits very fast.

1:20:18Your forebrain which is involved in all your contextual decision making and clean, clear strategies of what best to do is essentially shut down for about 20 seconds. If you can make it 20 seconds, you have a far better chance of not doing something really stupid and doing something that's very adaptive. Right? Now, there may be circumstances where you don't have 20 seconds. But if under stress and riding out that 20 seconds is generally going to be a very adaptive approach because then your forebrain comes back quote -unquote online and you could really start to make strategic decisions based on those particular circumstances.

1:20:58And so that's what's happening when we get experience and people say get triggered by something that's uncomfortable for us, right? You really, you get a text message from your boss or your partner that says we need to talk later, right? A lot of people, I don't know about you, but when I get we need to talk later, it's not my favorite text in the world to get, right? So someone might get that text and then they immediately go into like their perception or their beliefs or their kind of narrative about what that means. I'm going to be rejected. This is going to be disappointing. It's going to be really hard and those perceptions or beliefs are coming out of their past.

1:21:37So now sitting there looking at a text message which is really just a neutral, it's all events are neutral. We bring the meaning to them and we want to bring meaning to them. but it's just words on a screen. We don't even know what it means yet. You're looking at those and you're not even in the present that more you're in the past. And whenever really out of the present, people say, get present. That's the only place we live. It's where we oriented past, present, or future. In this moment, now that I'm going into this narrative from all the other times that I was, let's say I'm making up that I'm being rejected or I'm not going to get what I want, now I'm oriented to the past.

1:22:14So I'm we can say I'm disoriented in that moment or to the future you're anticipating what might be said what's going to happen You're out of the moment, but I would say that The anticipation is still something that's coming out of what we've experienced before right? Yeah, and then from there we go into an automatic reaction and it's like a fight or flight response It might not seem like that because we don't we might not be thinking I'm gonna die from this but if You know, we might be thinking I'm not going to be okay. And what is I'm not going to be okay? That gets carried out and it's triggered in the body, I would say in the same way as I'm at threat.

1:22:48I'm in danger. And this is where we're confusing discomfort. Because even if I am going to be not going to get the answer I want or I'm going to be abandoned, it's not life threatening. It's not actually threatening. It's the perceived threat. But I've responded that perceived threat as if it's actual threat. I might respond by kind of going after the person, like I need to know right now, being obsessive about it, I might respond by withdrawing completely and hiding from it. But it creates this cycle of kind of an automatic reaction to things that doesn't allow me to build tolerance for that stressor, right?

1:23:32The solution to that is first be aware that that's happening. And once you're aware that that happens and it happens to us all the time, once I recognize that I'm in this cycle below to find a way to stop, to intervene on that, to take a break from it. It might be just those 20 seconds. It might be something that might be taking a few breaths. It might be walking away from it. Can I interject something there? Because one thing that I'm stemmed out of a prior conversation we had is I think, you responses of, okay, like the stressor hits, I'm gonna take a, I'm gonna create the gap between stimulus and response that, you know, was it Victor Frankl or something like that?

1:24:15We referred to it. Sounds wonderful, but in real time, everything's very hard. It's very hard. It's very, everything's different. And so, you know, what can we do to prepare? What are the things? I like this notion of proactive tools that we can schedule, cold plunge being one of them. We'll talk about yoga, knee -drawn, some other things. But one of the things that I've learned is that there are sensations in the body that come about, and it will be different for different people. But there are sensations in my body that come about very fast because the adrenaline response is fast. And the more that I pay attention to those, the more I'm able to pick up on them at earlier stages of the stress response, kind of like seeing a big wave coming from further out.

1:24:58And the yogis talked about this. I learned about this also from you that like, in meditation, we can start to see the quote, it's mystical language, but like the subtle ripples of our perception, whereas when we're going through life and we're just kind of around us like being on a train and we're just seeing stuff go by all the time. The concept is stilling leads to seeing. I love that. The more that we can still the mind, the easier we can see what's actually happening versus what we perceive is happening. So what you say is so true that it is hard. If the first step is to, after we recognize that this is something happening, is to stop when we're in the middle of response, how do we stop?

1:25:42Something that I work with the people, and I actually heard you talk about in a different way that I really appreciated in one of your essentials podcast, where in that moment, when we're in that reaction, and the sympathetic nervous system has been activated. The solution though, is not to deactivate the sympathetic, it's to activate the parasympathetic. So our practices and tools that I think are the most beneficial is how do we activate the parasympathetic? A great question to ask ourselves, once we recognize that we're in some sort of stress response, I like to tell people to ask, is am I or is anybody around me an immediate physical danger?

1:26:30And if the answer is no, first off, if I can ask that question, it's probably the answer is no, but most of the things that we experience every day are not life -threatening. Actually, probably the thing that we experience every day that's most life -threatening that doesn't bother most of us is driving in a car, right? And we were hurtling down the road and just trusting that someone's not going to cross also for that other line, but that won't scare us, but getting someone that you're in a committed relationship with or the emotionally attached to that says something you don't like might throw you into a spiral.

1:27:04I mean, it speaks to the unbelievably powerful aspect of human connection. Yeah. I mean, likewise with the earlier example of the kid in video games, we think about this kid and the video game as like the the only players in the interaction but to take a video game away from a kid is to also remove him from his social context. We know that social isolation is one of the most potent stressors for for any mammal especially humans. I mean from what I've read and you know tribes would basically shame someone out of it if they did something really terrible They would send them out of the tribe and that was like death.

1:27:43They only survived together. Now we can live alone because of technology and human advancement, but like live physically alone, but we're not at the top of the food chain really. If we were out in the jungle or back when we were nomadic and we still have that within us, that we need that connection. We need that. So we're talking about distressed tolerance. We have an emotional weather map tool that can prepare us. There are things that are proactive like cold plunge or meditation. In the moment, we can hopefully create more of a gap. And of course, we were talking about this in the context of addiction, but as you were saying, would the behavior or the substance is the medicine against discomfort?

1:28:35Can you come back to that theme just a little bit to really hammer that home that when somebody comes to you Initially, you're saying okay, like what are you using how often are you using houses impacting your life trying to get them to see all that but once they move past that Are you trying to get them to see like what they're really afraid of? Let me frame this a little differently many years ago. You said it's kind of incredible. We're having an academic discussion And you said it's kind of incredible if we can tolerate discomfort for one second then we can tolerate it for two seconds. If we can take discomfort for two seconds, we can do it for five seconds.

1:29:11Once you start to realize that all you have to do is experience discomfort as a series of moments. Suddenly you realize that you have an immense capacity to manage discomfort. And I was like, I sat with that for a long time. Why do you think it's so hard for us to do that? Even though in theory, that's exactly how it works. I think this is where we get hijacked by the part of our nervous system that is kind of binary in looking at its life or death. You know, if we perceive this as danger, it's going to respond as danger. We don't want that part of the nervous system and we don't want it having discernment.

1:29:48We want it really when we're actually faced with, you know, I say, if you and I are walking across the road here in a car is about to hit us and you see it. I don't want you to stop, breathe, meditate, you know, have compassion for the driver. I want you to, you know, react immediately, push me out of the way, even if we get hurt and break a leg, I wanna, we need to live. You know, the problem happens when I, you know, go home and I say something, my wife, and she disagrees with me, and I react to her like she's a car about to hit me. You know, it becomes an appropriate response at an inappropriate time.

1:30:24We don't wanna lose that. And so it becomes so hard because we're in this kind of, I believe, this fight in our, in our nervous system to say one part of it saying, you need to act or you're not going to be okay. And the other part saying, I don't want to keep doing this. In your mind, you know, I know that I'm in this room or in your lab with virtual reality goggles on, but that one part of my body thinks I'm falling when really I'm watching a video game. So maybe the best we can do is prepare. These proactive tools seem increasingly important to me. Um, can we talk about yoga, Needra? Yeah. I talked about non -sleep deep rest a lot on this podcast.

1:31:09Yes, I decided to take yoga, Needra, which is a thousands of your old practice and rename it non -sleep deep rest because I wanted more people to thank you for doing that. I mean, I've taken some heat, but I want more people to do it. And it's a zero cost tool that I think is very valuable. I learned it from you. I went out to where you work and observed that this is the first thing that people do every morning when trying to get sober. This is the first thing that people do that you have them do every morning when they're trying to identify and overcome their traumas, including full -blown PTSD.

1:31:44And I don't want to share some of the stories that people shared out there, but a couple of them were very intense. I mean, when I'm talking about PTSD, I'm not talking about like how to bad semester in school. I'm talking about people who were co -sleeping with their kid and the kid died. Yeah. And it was like, it was a very intense thing to hear those stories. And it was also a beautiful thing to see people's transition through their traumas in some cases, their addictions, or both. And every day started with an hour of needra. What is it about needra? How did you discover Nijra? And how did this come about?

1:32:22Because I think it's an extremely, extremely important tool for a number of reasons. But how did you start incorporating this into trauma and addiction treatment? I was working at a place in Central Florida and near there, it was a treatment center. And not far from there, there happened to be an ashram started by an old Indian guy who had come over from India in the 50s or 60s, he's in his 90s now and is kind of credited as one of the people to bring yoga to the West. One of many was the Omra yoga institute and they were running some workshops and I ended up doing a training there. That opened a door for me to start doing some other things.

1:33:08I'd been practicing breath work and this was all part of my own journey and then got introduced to yoga and aja. And it was just a very powerful tool. And in these workshops that I was in, I saw some pretty amazing things happen for the people that were taking trainings. We were there, you know, for, I remember we were there for, it was a 10 -day training, and you could take it as 10 days, or you could take five days and then come back for five days. And there was a woman who had been there for a five day and was coming back. And when she was there at the first part, She was a single mom, she had two boys.

1:33:47They were probably under 12. And she was completely stressed by them, like completely stressed. She was, could not almost handle being a mom. And she practiced this, she decided to come to this training. And then she went home and it was several months in between. And when she came back, I remember in the opening like group, she shared that she'd gone home and had not changed anything. The only thing she did was practice yoga and intro, I think twice a day in the morning in the evening. And she's like, my boys changed. And I actually don't think the boys probably changed at all. But she was someone who was filled with anxiety and stress.

1:34:30And the kids were picking up on that. And she wasn't able to tolerate the discomfort or distress of her children or boys just being boys. I don't even think they're really probably behaving more than, you know, an eight and ten year old does differently, but she couldn't handle it. And now she was able to kind of build this distress tolerance by practicing this meditation. You know, and knee -drawn means sleep. So it's a sleep -based meditation. Yeah. Do you want to just briefly describe what it looks like? Generally, what it looks like is the first person lays down and ideally they'd be laying on their back unless they can't land their back, but you land your back and get in a very comfortable position.

1:35:13It's a guided practice and one of the reasons it's guided is it kind of becomes a technique that disappears the technique. And what I mean by that is if you're sitting doing meditation and you're doing something where you have to focus on a mantra or which is not, this is not an exclusion of that. I mean, people, but when you're doing that, you kind of have to focus on that mantra. So sometimes having to focus on something can bring you out of it. And in those practices, bringing you out of it is beneficial too, because you want to be brought out of it, and then you can find ways to get back into it being the meditative experience.

1:35:53So you're laying down, and there's generally a series of, I'll say physical movements, it's not like yoga doing stretching, it might be something like tensing and relaxing your muscles, it might be something like massaging your face as you're being guided through this, to kind of just relax the body. And after a certain point, and in a lot of the teachings that when I do it or I've been taught, there's a certain point at which all movement stops. And you just want to follow the, you just you're just instructed to follow the person's voice. In Yoganidra, we said an intention. Like an intention might be like, I'm at peace with myself as I am in the world as it is.

1:36:35Something like that, something that you want to bring in or a state that you want to experience. I know that you distinguish, I believe you distinguish non -sleep deep breaths as like Yoganidra without intention. Generally without intentions or mystical language. It involves the, I think the most critical part of non -sleep deep rest in yoga nidra that to me the overlap in the vent diagram is includes self -directed relaxation the ability to do that which of course the incorporation of long exhale breathing will facilitate that because it pushes down on that side of the seesaw that is the parasympathetic nervous system and really gets it engaged regardless of how stress you are You pointed out getting that person pathetic nervous system that The idea that people's mind can be active, but their body is still I think is a very powerful state you're not trying to fall asleep So the end goal is in reach for everyone.

1:37:33Yeah, it isn't like you're gonna fall asleep It's like actually you're gonna not fall asleep if you fall asleep. It's okay But and actually sometimes people think they're asleep, but when I'm guiding them and I'll I'll give a direction like you know to roll over on their side at the end, and they do it, but they thought they were asleep. So they were they, we believe is happening in that is they're in this, the brain states of sleep while still being awake. Once they're in that relaxed space after doing some movement in the beginning or the space to be relaxed and still, I should say still versus relaxed, still physically is through breath different breath exercises, specifically ones that have long exhales, right?

1:38:15That's like you said, it activates the parasympathetic nervous system and then guiding them through their body in some way. So it might be, there's one called 61 points where you identify all these different points in the body starting with the forehead down to the pit of the throat and then all different parts from your shoulder down to your fingers and then all the way down to your And people being able to kind of move their awareness in their body kind of gets them away from that thinking and doing into the more feeling and being. They're putting their awareness on their body rather than everything external.

1:38:53One of the great strengths of doing NIDRA or NSDR as it were is that we take ourselves out of the prediction mode and we can experience life unfold in real -time moments. It sounds so mystical, but actually it was Josh Wateskin who was on this podcast, the former chess prodigy, martial arts champion, etc. On the Joe Rogan podcast, he said something that I wanted to share with you, which felt appropriate now, which was he said there are two ways to go through life. One is metaphorically speaking as a passenger in the dining car on a train that's going 80 miles per hour and you're experiencing what's in that train and you're seeing things go by, that's the non -conscious, lower way to experience life, lesser way to experience life.

1:39:44Where you want to be is strap to the front of that train safely, experiencing space and time as they're happening flowing by you and through you as a series of moments. And I really think I credit NIDRA and NSDR with an ability to see life unfold as an observer and still have the ability to participate. So you're not like dissociated, you're not stepped back, you're not a head of yourself, you're like right where you need to be. Right. Is that capture? I believe so. I might take that the train example a little bit different direction where I always will say it's like, you know, you're either on the back of the bus and you're being driven around or you're driving the bus.

1:40:29You know, it's not that you're just on and he may not have been saying this, but just not on these rails experiencing it like this that you have control autonomy and have the ability to be authentic and authentic in a way not authenticity gets It's kind of thrown around in people like I just, I just am who I am. Well, most times when people are doing that, they're just acting. However, they're feeling in the moment, they're not who they are. They're who they were or they're, you know, they're, they're acting out their past experiences. Authenticity in the way that I'm talking is more like, like, auth is the same in author, right?

1:41:03It's like authorship that you become the author of your life, you know, that you're able to write the story going forward because a lot of what we're doing before that is just plagiarizing from our past. Stuck in the cycles of our kind of programmed reactive patterns that came out of the ways that we were shaped. And things like Nijero, where we can start to activate the parasympathetic nervous system, again, distinct from deactivating the sympathetic and be able to pause and be able to look at kind of choice. You know, in that cycle I was talking about earlier where we're being reactive, the first thing is the stop.

1:41:42How do we stop it's by building these abilities to have this distrust tolerance even if it's for a few seconds and take a moment to be able to get present and Look and what I mean by that is get look look at what's actually happening. This isn't Every time someone sent me a text message and or every time someone's ever abandoned me or disappointed me or every time I've been afraid it's just this one moment where I get a text that says we need to talk later and from that Now that can break the cycle enough that I instead of automatic reaction, I'm in choice. And I'm making a choice out of kind of all options of how I'm going to handle this.

1:42:20Now, it might still mean that I go, could we talk about it now in a text response? But that would be very distinct from kind of sending 20 text messages and rapid succession, saying, what do you need? Why are you doing this? Am I in trouble? whatever it is we're saying, but you've been able to move to the front of the bus, and now you're driving it, right? You're moving kind of out of you're being, instead of being at the effect of life, you're being at cause. I feel like most people learn how to control their body, but most people don't know how to control their mind, meaning they don't know how to control their thinking.

1:42:59Yeah, and there's a great line in a Indian text, it's called the I think it is. What says something like, the end of the, it's like man thinks his enemy is out there, but really his man's uncontrolled mind is his only true foe. I don't know if we need to garner complete control over the mind. I think the way to do that is to be able to kind of find ways to relax back from what the mind is doing and saying and the, you know, like you said, ignoring the thoughts between two and five. You know, I think there's a lot of thoughts that we have that we can ignore. You know, our thoughts are not fact.

1:43:39It's this input that I'm getting and we tend to grab onto the thoughts that I think that we've had before that have helped us survive situations, even if the way that we've survived those situations is to cause destruction. You know, we know how to live, you know, example, be someone who's in an abusive relationship again and again. Right? That person, I've never met that person that said, I can't wait to get it in the next relationship so it's abusive. You know, it could be a man or a woman. In this case, let's say it's a woman, you know, maybe she's the only man that she was around growing up or controlling her abusive and she had some experiences with men who were very similar and then that's the environment or the waters that she started to swim in.

1:44:24She knows how to survive that kind of man, or if you're a man, that kind of woman. And when they find, even if they want that relationship that's loving, caring kind, and patient, and no conflict, or not that type of conflict, even though they want that when they get into it, it doesn't make sense, because they've never done it before. They're still gonna be potentially relating to that person with these past reactive patterns. You know, I would say this when my wife and I, If you're in a relationship, we have a great marriage. And great marriage also includes disagreement and argument, right?

1:45:01It also includes love and connection and all of that stuff. And when we're in an argument, it's almost like I'm not talking to her and she's not talking to me. It's like my past is talking to her past and her past is talking to my past. When we can stop and get out of that cycle for just a moment, then we can make a choice that will move us toward the direction that we want to move. And that choice can seem risky. Because if we haven't done it before, it goes against every, or let's say that choice might go against everything that we've developed in order to survive the situations that we've come out of.

1:45:38So now, instead of arguing, I'm gonna be vulnerable. That's gonna feel very scary. Yeah, Lori Gottliffe, a psychologist, just was on this podcast and saying, and I totally subscribe to this that people are more willing to stay in a bad situation often. Something that's not adaptive for them because it's familiar versus stepping into something that could be better for them. Yeah. Clearly better for them and they can understand that cognitively, but they somehow cling to what's familiar. I think that's just the way our nervous system is wired. Like you said, you know, staying in the battles, repeating the battles that are familiar to us, that we know how to win.

1:46:21We just, instead of authoring something new, we're plagiarizing from our past, just again and again. Yeah, I love that phrase, plagiarizing from the past, even though it's something to avoid. How often should people do NADRA at where NSDR and when, what time of day? I think, I think I've told you this before, right? The first, probably the best time is to do something in the morning and in the late afternoon. Second best time would be in the evening and third best time would be anytime you can. So it's not easy, you know, it could be anywhere from 20 to 35 minutes, right? So it's not easy for people to find that based on, find that time based on the schedules they have, but you know, set a set of time that you're going to do it, you know, when we schedule and have proactive tools, we don't know if we're need them in that moment?

1:47:09What it means is regardless of whether I need it or not, I'm going to do it. You know, it's kind of like I tell people with therapy and about therapy and coaching all the time. If the second best time to get therapy is when you're in crisis, the best time is when you're not. That's when you can grow. So scheduling proactively will allow us to either maybe solve a crisis that that we're in or help us have the tolerance in that moment, like I wake up stressed and I'm able to then do this practice and then I'm not stressed, or I wake up not stressed and I'm able to do this and it helps to build the ability for me to kind of drop back into that state.

1:47:47Cause that's what I think as we practice things like Yogan -Idra, we're able to more quickly move from a dysregulated state to a regulated state. I don't know if you've had that experience. Definitely, I think of stress and alertness and calm all of it as the autonomic nervous system. Right, parasympathetic being calm, calm, or state, sympathetic being more activated states. And I think of it like a seesaw. And I think, you know, when we're asleep, we're mostly parasympathetic, when we're very stressed, we're mostly, so it's the balance. But the way I think about things like Nidra is as a person on that seesaw, you are that person and you're learning to press on one side.

1:48:33And when you're stressed, the hinge of that seesaw is very tight. So it's hard to activate the person with that much more than when like you come out of sleep, you're still a little bit relaxed, perhaps. And then it's easier to push on that. So you might find that learning nidra is easier than there's always value to learning how to work both sides of the seesaw. And actually sometimes we need to know how to ramp up the level stress that as in the case with the cold plunge, we're deliberately activating the sympathetic nervous system and we're saying, aha, but I'm doing it as this kind of person surfing on the sea.

1:49:05And so I know how to balance here. So that when I'm there again, I recognize this place. So that's kind of how I think about it. And also, I have found in practicing, you're going to journey non -sleep deep rest, that it makes other practices easier, that like when I want to do a five minute meditation, You know, and one of the things that I think is super valuable for people is to set a, you know, proactively schedule these times that you're going to do longer periods of rest or a practice, but also recognize that you don't, you know, there might be things that you can do for a minute or two minutes.

1:49:41This is what Pavel Sutsulin, who is a, you know, world -class strength coach, who is on this podcast, talks about greasing the groove. You know, you want to get good at pull -ups? do two pull -ups every time you walk through the doorway from a pull -up bar. I think metaphorically speaking, that the workout in the gym, people think of that as the end point, but actually, we used to do physical labor as a species, right? So I look at the workout in the gym as the ability to lift boxes on moving day to move furniture without getting hurt. I love going to the gym, but it's not an end in up itself.

1:50:12Same thing like a long run as the ability to go hiking with friends without having to train for it and not worrying about gassing out half way through. So I think that these practices are preparation for real life stress. Jim, for your mind. They're the gym for your mind. And we don't talk enough about emotional fitness and the world is clearly metabolically ill with obesity, diabetes, etc. But we are also dealing with a massive mental health crisis that I do believe stems primarily from an inability to regulate this autonomic nervous system thing because we can say, well, sleeps the foundation of mental health, which it is, and physical health.

1:50:48A lot of people have trouble sleeping, how to get better at sleeping, get better at relaxing, how to get better at relaxing, yoga, nidra, and SDR. And then, you know, so I feel like the tools exist, and I'm so grateful that you point to me in the directions of these tools, and it can be very simple. You know, one of my teachers, you say that the breath is the mind made visible, and if you want to change your mind, change your breath. I mean, of course, do a yoga nidra, it might take 30 minutes, right? But if you're in a moment where you're feeling really activated, change your breath, specifically like a long, deep, long exhale.

1:51:23I love that breath is the mind made visible. It's beautiful and so true. That was Omra Desai. I should give him. Okay. Wonderful. It's the quickest way to move us to create an activation of the, of the person some of the nerve system, quickest way. And this is where people will think meditation is so hard, breath work, which there's many different forms of breath work are hard, which they can be, I suppose, pardon in the way that we've gotta find the time and it can be uncomfortable, but I'll tell people, take a minute and breathe. And if even a minute sounds along, take seven breaths. Like who can't take seven breaths?

1:52:06at any point in the day, you're gonna do it anyway, right? We never aren't breathing, but if we can bring our attention to that. And you can schedule that, like, you know, I'm gonna do that before I get out of the car to go to the office, I'm gonna do it before I go to lunch, after a meeting, before a meeting, or you can just say any time that I'm feeling like this, I can take seven breaths. It might be end up being two minutes, like a TV commercial. And those things add up and they build on each other. And the more that we practice those, the more that we do raise that capacity to experience distress.

1:52:37First, it helps us activate that part of the system and teaches us like you're analogy in the gym. But we also start building a habit around doing something like this so that we can weather whatever storms coming and we start to orient toward it. I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors waking up. Waking up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga knee juror sessions and more. I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old and I made a profound impact on my life. And by now there are thousands of quality peer -reviewed studies that emphasize how useful mindfulness meditation can be for improving our focus, managing stress and anxiety, improving our mood, and much more.

1:53:22In recent years I started using the waking up app for my meditations because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice. Many people start a meditation practice and experience some benefits. But many people also have challenges keeping up with that practice. What I and so many other people love about the waking up app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from. And those meditations are of different durations. So it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice, both from the perspective of novelty. You never get tired of those meditations.

1:53:52There's always something new to explore and to learn about yourself and about the effectiveness of meditation. and you can always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to meditate. I also really like doing yoga, knee drop, or what is sometimes called non -sleep deep rest for about 10 or 20 minutes because it is a great way to restore mental and physical figure without the tiredness that some people experience when they wake up from a conventional nap. If you'd like to try the waking up app, please go to wakingup .com slash huberman where you can access a free 30 day trial.

1:54:23Well, again, that's wakingup .com slash Huberman to access a free 30 day trial. People are probably starting to realize that overcoming addiction is about more than just white knuckling it. It's about more than just going to meetings, although that can be very useful. It's about having a road map of the day, having a plan, knowing what weather patterns to look out for internally and externally. It's about having a way to deal with distress, having a way to calm down. Let's talk a little bit more about specific addictions. Maybe I'll mention a couple different categories of addiction and maybe you could reflect on some of the unique features of that in your experience, not necessarily neurobiologically, but in terms of strategies for confronting in oneself that those things, right?

1:55:17like strategies for trying to overcome, because I hear from thousands of people really about different addictions in themselves and people close to them. So let's start with alcohol. What is unique about alcohol addiction that people should know? And these don't, these could be extensive answers, they don't have to be, but that could be helpful to them. You alcohol is an interesting one. I think alcohol and most drugs have a lot of similarities. Although alcohol tends to be the one that is the most socially acceptable. Drinking is part of our culture. If you don't do it, you catch some flax sometimes.

1:56:03Oh, yeah. I think some of that's been changing and some of it thanks to you. I mean, I can't tell you how many people that have ended up talking to because they listen to your podcast on alcohol, you know, just from a health standpoint. So people are starting to look at that. It's become, you know, it's less like the madmen, 50s people drinking at lunch, but it's still very much part of the culture and everything. Happy hour, happy day, you know, I mean, look at the something that we've invented one of these retirement communities like it where people are retired and just drinking all the time or oh yeah there's a real stigma to not being able to drink for people.

1:56:43You know I you know I don't mind sharing I've been sober for quite some time and that was a that was a challenging thing like the first wedding I went to or the first you know work event that I went to. I didn't know how to talk about it with people. Now it's no big deal. It doesn't bother me at all. And if it does, sometimes I don't like to be around people who are just getting wasted, but I'll leave the wedding at 10 instead of 2. Most of the people thought I was there till 2, but I left it 10 because they're doing whatever they're doing, but it's very challenging because having a glass of wine at dinner or a beer after work or thinking about, you know, people, you know, there's like a, it was always a thing like the first time a dad and a son share their, share a beer.

1:57:32Like there's a lot of romanticizing around it. And I alcohol, I don't, I don't, I don't think alcohol is evil. I mean, I think listening to what you've talked about it, it is poison, but I don't like anything else in moderation. I don't think it's gonna, it's, it's a terrible problem. I'm not anti alcohol, but, you know, what is it, what is it doing to you? And what are you using it for? So I think what the good side of that being part of the culture is when people can find a community like a 12 -step community or some other sort of peer community where people aren't drinking, it can, you know, that is really what helps them a lot.

1:58:17They're not alone in this. I think the movies and TV do a terrible job representing what 12 -step meetings are like. It's usually like they show a circle and a church basement and everybody's talking about how they can't drink that day. I'm sure you've seen that in television, right? In reality, of course, that happens sometimes, but most people are there really trying to to use that program as a design for living and to build really amazing lives. When you look at the 12 steps when it comes to alcohol, alcohol's only mentioned in the first one. Everything else is about how you live your life.

1:58:57That first step is about admitting we were powerless and that our lives had become in manageable. And powerlessness is actually an awesome concept. I mean, people will look at powerlessness and think that means I'm weak. That means I can't control my life, but really defining where you're powerless is the first step in finding great power. Because if I just keep going out every day and I start fighting a battle that I'm going to lose every single day, and even if it wasn't addiction, like every day I just go out and I am taking on the five biggest guys on the block when I'm a kid, right? I'm going to lose that every day.

1:59:35I'm not going to start winning until I realize I can't beat them in the way that I'm doing it. doing it. So go do something else. You know, power less, we'll re -identify where we're power less than we can go find great power. And that's where the concept of higher power comes in. And higher power, so a lot of people is God and whatever their concept of it, sometimes higher power is just the group of people and the community. You know, I will see that anywhere from the relationship with God to like me and you talking as a higher power. Two heads are better than one. You know, I'm going to be able to reflect to you and you're going to be able to reflect back, I'm going to share with you and you can reflect back to me and help me see things differently and shift a perspective.

2:00:16Because a lot of our healing is just a perception change. Like I'm just going to see things a little bit differently than I did before. So that community and the ability for them to be in service to each other and help each other is is a I think that's the antithesis of I'm part of this drinking culture. And that's not only unique to alcohol, but because there's such that, you know, there's not usually like a socially acceptable, like, you don't see crack advertised on television, right? You see alcohol and it's in everything. Now, we do see gambling on television quite a bit, which is incredible.

2:00:55Yeah, let's talk about gambling. I like the way, by the way, that you frame alcohol, it's being offered to us all the time after a certain age. And so it's a challenging one for people that are challenged with alcohol addiction or alcohol use disorder. And 12 step, I think, is free. It's in every city. It's a powerful program. Certainly, there are data. I should just mention this. I think people will hear, oh, it's a cult, et cetera. There was a study actually that run at Stanford. So a years ago, we'll provide a link to the coverage of that study and the study, which took a very objective look at 12 -step for the treatment of alcholism and other substance addictions.

2:01:41And actually, the investigators, the people that ran the study were very skeptical going into it. And the results were pretty remarkable. And they changed their initial perception coming out of it that it can be very, very effective for people, especially given that you can do it when you travel, you can go to meetings and other cities. And as you mentioned, it's not the depressing picture that people think of. A bunch of people whose lives are destitute and abasement. Sometimes people are coming in with some hard stuff, but there's often a lot of humor. There's a lot of common challenge. It's very there's a lightness there that a lot of people might not anticipate.

2:02:20People taking on life, not hiding from it. Yeah, love that. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Between two -factor authentication, strong passwords and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it. Guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40 % your first year. Visit LifeLock .com slash podcast for 40 % off, terms apply. Um, gambling. Not everybody that gambling says a gambling problem just like everything else.

2:03:00But when it does become problematic, it's a very challenging disorder to treat. I mean, I don't know where the study came out of, but at one point I had seen some research that said that the highest rates of suicide were among gambling addicts. And what I've seen with that is it's like the whole world starts to get really small. You know, it's weird because in the way that I look at it, it's really the only addiction. If it's an addiction for that person, right? Not everybody that gambles is gambling, but the ones that are addicted. It seems to me to be the only addiction that the next hit can solve all your problems.

2:03:42So you're down $300 ,000. You could bet that and win it. I don't think anybody thinks, like really thinks, I mean, in the moment, they're probably out of their mind, but they don't think, you know, if I shoot this next, if I take, if I, if I shoot heroin, my life is going to get better in the long run. They might be thinking it's going to get better right now, because I'm not going to get sick. I'm going to feel good whatever it is for them, but they don't, they're not thinking that this is going to solve their problems. They know it's not. And so it, it, it, it fortifies what you were talking, we were talking about before, is continuing to go after the hot fudge Sunday, except they can get it.

2:04:18You know, and it's interesting because I've talked to different people and sometimes the hit isn't in the winning, sometimes the hit isn't the losing for them. Really? I've had people tell me that. I don't really understand that, but I think then they have to go back after it again. I mean, I believe them, you know, they're the ones suffering from it, but wow. And you know, it's becoming a real problem with kids. You know, there's a lot of sites to gamble on now. You know, a lot of, they can bet on a lot of crypto sites. You can bet on anything. There's, and kids are playing in these online casinos that are probably operated overseas that are not regulated at all.

2:04:57And you know, casinos that are regulated become very wealthy, winning on a very small margin. I'm sure these casinos don't ever lose, right? they're making it up. It's in our face all the time. It was, it was reading Willie Mays died recently as a baseball player. San Francisco giant before we were around. But he was banned from baseball for life. I think they ended up letting him back in because he took a contract from, I think it was ballies. He wasn't betting on sports. So this isn't the 80s. He took a contract because he would go there and Meet with their high rollers once a year for like a week.

2:05:47Just play golf with them. Hang out with them. It wasn't getting it wasn't betting on baseball and he got banned from baseball now you watch a baseball game or go to a baseball stadium and different what betting sites are are different betting sites are mentioned all over the place. You watch any sporting event and it's out there and that's not the only thing people are gambling on. But I don't know if you watch sports right now with the basketball on or in the Super Bowl is on, I mean it's showing people with a phone showing that they're winning, you know, 100, there's a celebrity on their winning $186 ,000 I think the number was.

2:06:23You know, and then couple that with kids that are pretty susceptible already looking at those unicorn type people that are making millions on YouTube playing video games or started a professional poker players or even ones that aren't gambling that you know they're out there and they became a creator and they're making millions of dollars a year by having people follow them like that. There's a way to make a you know that their significance is going to come from making a lot of money really fast you know and then they see this way to do it without having to work or anything like that and it's rigged to lose.

2:06:58I mean, they're gonna lose dopamine without effort. Yeah, that's the danger. I was, you know, said many times on this podcast elsewhere too. It's like any high rapid inflection in dopamine that doesn't require effort. Aside from being a kid and your parents get you an ice cream or it's your birthday, all you did is you were born to get those presents and you deserve that. It's your birthday, day, great, but in life, dopamine that doesn't require effort to obtain is the slippery as slow. And the gambling is not for the kids, isn't just an adult, but it's not just on betting on what we think we might traditionally think of betting on a sporting event or something like that.

2:07:42It's, you know, we see it in cryptocurrencies. There's nothing it's cryptocurrencies, but people going into it without any knowledge or any sort of sophistication and just putting all their money in it and up and down. We see it. We see more sophisticated people doing it as adults in real estate investments or stock market or owners of company taking big bets on things. And it doesn't mean that there's aren't people that are taking calculated risks. I'm talking about people who are like day trading when they, you know, and there are people that day trade and do great. But then there's a lot of people that see this person day traded in great and then they they do it and don't do so great, right?

2:08:20They're lives collapse. So are you seeing more people coming to you with gambling addiction? Yes. It's not always then the primary thing though. There's a lot of people that are coming in with substance abuse or substance use or alcoholism and we find out that they're also doing that. The thing is people addicted to gambling aren't always seeking treatment. By the time that they are ready to, they might not have the money for it. You know, they might not have the job with the insurance. And, you know, if we are talking about insurance and treatment centers, there's not really a benefit for long -term gambling treatment.

2:08:59You know, you have to kind of look at the anxiety and depression around it, and sometimes they get put in with people who are just, who are suffering from anxiety and depression, and we're not really focusing on the specific gambling issue. We also see people that, you know, they stop drinking, and they're able to stay sober that way and they haven't really organized or ordered their life in a way that they're building towards something and that energy from the addiction of alcohol or drug goes to gambling. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. We'll talk about a few other patterns of addiction and types of addiction, excuse me.

2:09:35But this idea that when you remove the quote unquote medicine, there's a lot of distress and discomfort that comes up for people. and some people are able to whitenoccal it as it's called. Some people can develop tools to try and work with that distress, become more distress tolerant. Some people will transmute distress. Sometimes, yeah, it goes into running ultra -marathons, which doesn't necessarily mean that it's an addiction, but I've seen, and we know some people who got sober, and stayed sober, basically by running a lot. A lot, a lot. You know, if you think that that increased, like, VO2 max allows for ability to handle distress better.

2:10:23Sure, I think that running can calm the mind over time. Runners who run a lot, most of them are pretty tired or a little bit tired. Right. And maybe that's part of the solution. You know, if you have a dog that needs a lot of physical movement, you put into a small space and it doesn't get that chance to run around. I mean, you see this in zoos and animals develop these, what's called, stereotopies. Like, where you see the lion that's cutting literally a trench in the dirt, it's really sad to see. You know, that animal is designed to roam. And you give an animal the opportunity to expend this energy that's stored up in its mitochondria.

2:10:57And it does, and it can relax, and it can sleep. I mean, they still have to do the work of getting sober these people. But, you know, moving your body through space is a way of transmuting energy out of the body. So you come home and you're like, relax, eat a meal. It's like there's a calming effect during sex activities. For me, nothing changes my mood and nervous system better than even a 20 -minute run. I mean, I think they're also getting the benefits. If you're walking and running, you're getting the benefits or similar benefits to what people get from EMDR. I mean, just the natural movements of the eye.

2:11:31In fact, EMDR, which is eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing, was the woman who discovered it, discovered it by going for a walk and realizing when she put something that she was distressed by in her mind at the end of the walk, she felt better. For Encine Shapiro, she was in Palo Alto walking behind Stanford when she made that discovery. There's a, as long as we're talking about this, I think that this is coming up because I online behavior, gambling, looking for somebody to get drugs from, you know, those are, the foraging is where the dopamine is released. We were talking about this earlier.

2:12:04And foraging mentally is the same from the perspective of the dopamine system as foraging physically through space. The thing about with the dopamine system evolved for, it's like any animal, including us, searching for water, searching for food, searching for mates. We rest at night, but it's the movement forward through space that satisfies that dopamine energy system. And in fact, the major, I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent here, but the The major system for movement in the body, not just reward and motivation, is dopamine. That's why people with Parkinson's lose dopamine orgic neurons and they can't generate smooth behavior anymore.

2:12:43And it's interesting that NIDRA and NSDR, the most impressive study in my mind, is the one that shows these big increases in dopamine from resting. So I feel like physical movement. It's like a 65 % increase in the digest dopamine or something like that. It's incredible. There's something about still body active mind that ramps up our dopamine stores and then prepares us for a room. Does the dopamine store get ramped up when we're sleeping? Yes. I mean, I think that's the, I mean, the, the anecdotally they'll say that, you know, a 30 minute, the yoga nidra is equal to about three hours of REM sleep.

2:13:18I don't know that that's true or not, but it's hard to equate, of course, but I'm just saying anecdotally, you know, but it makes sense. and I think, yeah, there's some truth to that basic statement or basic truth to that statement. I think that transmuting just the energy that would otherwise become distress or that starts as distress. Like, when we're stressed, we need to get that out of our body. And I think that drugs like cocaine and infetamine, big increases in dopamine and then crashes, you're essentially dispelling the energy. I'm not so sure that it's always about pursuit. That that's kind of, like you He said it's like the gambling addict that actually wants to lose.

2:13:57Or they want to lose, but they recognize that they felt that that was the hit. Or they felt one there. They I'm sure they felt it when they won as well. But when you're really low, the only place you can go up, go from there is up. When you're really high, the only place you can go from there is down. Yeah. This is so important because I think what is discomfort? What is the distress we're experiencing? It's not our thoughts. We don't feel our thoughts. We feel our feelings. They call them feelings, right? Because we feel them. What are we feeling? We're feeling some sort of sensation in our body.

2:14:34It's energy. It's energy, which is energy. And when we're feeling that energy in an appropriate situation, like I'm feeling intense adrenaline and excitement when I'm going on a roller coaster that I like, And I'll pay money and stand in line to do that. If you wake up on a Tuesday morning in your bed and you start feeling that it's anxiety fear, desperation. It's still just energy in our body. And everybody will experience things differently. I could probably ask you because you've got insight, if you're experiencing anger where it is, if somebody asks me, I can experience that in a hot belly, like heat between my shoulders feel really tense.

2:15:15You know, if I'm scared, where do I feel that? You know, I feel like an emptiness in my stomach and a kind of tension in my body. You know, people can name it. And sometimes just naming it, you know, what it is versus kind of running through like, I'm anxious, I'm afraid. Instead of saying I'm anxious or afraid, it being able to go, well, my heart's racing. I'm feeling tension in my shoulders, talking about the experience. And the goal isn't always just to dissipate it, but we can be with it because the idea that I'm anxious and I can't get out of it then causes more anxiety. That's right. And so these practices that we can anything that we can build or we just kind of lean into the discomfort a little bit and then lean out, we start to build capacity.

2:16:03We pendulate through kind of activation and resource until we have a larger range of motion. What about an all bundle of these? things that really hit the dopamine system hard. Like in your observation, cocaine and fetamine being the most salient ones, at or all, and other stimulants, is there something unique to those addictions that you see in people that come in that give them kind of special requirements for how to overcome those addictions? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I think in the, um, until sometime in the 80s, I'm not going to have this right, they didn't even, I think they didn't really see cocaine as addictive because you didn't become dependent on it like you would heroin or alcohol.

2:16:50Yes, somebody wrote a book called, it was a doctor gold, gold, 1 ,800 cocaine where they were starting to see that we could classify addiction as a psychological addiction. I might have that a little bit off, but I think it's somewhere in that neighborhood. There's not a physical detox from stimulants like amphetamines or cocaine, like there is from heroin, opioids, or alcohol and benzodiazepines. Coming off stimulants is really hard. It's really hard. It's really hard. Right. But there's a obsession of the mind that gets triggered and it's this psychological addiction that they can't seem to get out of.

2:17:37I would imagine that you could probably describe it and what's happening with the huge surge in dopamine and then dropping off of it. I'm not sure exactly where it falls in that. But you know, there's a, they used to think that people couldn't, you know, recover from crack cocaine. That's what we were told. You do it once and you're addicted. I don't want to say that's not true, but there was no real evidence for that. It's just smoking crack, aside from shooting cocaine, like an intravenously, leads to the fastest increase in dopamine. It's the rate of increase is just as important as the people.

2:18:10In working with, I mean, there's a lot of energy that goes into just having them kind of still. I mean, I think a lot of, you know, stimulants kind of, I see it as they help the physical body kind of match with the internal state of the nervous system. I mean, I think that's one of of the reasons we see stimulants work for ADHD. I mean, you probably understand the biological reasons but it seems to me that it kind of levels out their experience. I mean, I've seen people that when they take stimulants, they get really calm. Yeah, having a mismatch between your brain level of activity and your bodily level of activity is really rough.

2:18:51So let's talk about some process addictions. These days, I hear a ton of really desperate stories, mostly from young guys, I've heard from maybe four or five women on this, but literally thousands of young men about porn addiction. Every time I hear about it, I feel so fortunate that I grew up in a time where or maybe I just don't have the the wiring for it. And if I did, I would be I'm pretty open on this podcast. I It's never been an issue for me. And they're telling me that they can't stop watching porn. I get the sense that they're not enjoying this experience anymore because they're reaching out to me saying how in the world can I quit?

2:19:39And what do I tell them? I remember, and again I don't know this study, but I remember somebody referencing many years ago when I was first getting in the field that porn addiction at the time specifically related to video pornography, which is what it all is now. It was having the same impact on the brain and young men as crack cocaine. I mean, it's extremely powerful. It has a lot of other effects in that it sets up a very unrealistic idea and perspective of what sex and intimacy is. It also can help or can lead to kind of setting their sexual template. you know, they can quickly escalate just like you would escalate.

2:20:28You kind of back to the, the, uh, hot -footed Sunday, where it doesn't work anymore from, you know, something that might seem like normal sex to violent sex to really out there things that can bring a lot of shame that they're even watching and it can escalate quickly. And then have an impact on their own lives and relationships because they're playing out those relationships or that amount of intimacy depending on what they're doing, also if there's masturbation along with it in a fantasy. Well, what I'm also hearing is that anytime they are in a real life intimate scenario, which seems to be fewer and fewer times nowadays in the younger generation, that they're having sexual anxiety, sexual performance issues, which makes sense if their brain and nervous system is getting wired by porn to observe sexual behavior as opposed to being in the experience of intimate sex behavior, right?

2:21:29Two different things to be in the experience versus watching someone else's experience of it, which is what pornographer he is. This was probably 10, 15 years ago where we're treating a lot of soldiers that had come back from Afghanistan or Iraq and they had acts. This was like the first wars where they had access to the internet. And there's a lot of other things. So there was a lot of kind of combining of sex and violence, right? There are around a lot of violence and then they're watching sex and then that kind of sexual template would set around like an order for them to get pleasure out of sex.

2:22:07It would need to be aggressive or even even violent or very risky. You know, so there's all these things that kind of collapse together. There were other things going on. It was like the first time that they had also related access to video chats to be able to be on a battlefield and then come back and be talking to their spouse about something that's going on with the kids. It was very confusing in environment for those guys and men and women. You know, the porn addiction is a tough one, you know, because it's everywhere. I mean, now you can find it on any social media, almost, not maybe not anyone, but it's not really limited, you know.

2:22:56And even if it's not, you know, I know certain states have just put in where you have to put in your ID to get it, but there's tons of ways around that and other sites that people can go to. And I've run into that with a lot of, it does seem to be young men, you know, and it's a way for them to play out some sort of fantasy around connection and relationship and it's, it makes their world really small. I don't think it's the same as gambling, but it can make it, it can make their world very, very small in that they're instead of finding relationships out in the world. And it's not necessarily a relationship, but but they're what they believe they're getting out of a relationship, they're then getting out of watching porn.

2:23:39It seems like basically stopping completely is the answer. And people say, and I'm not trying to moralize here, right? I'm not telling people what's moral about this. I just know that any behavior or substance that leads to quick repeated inflections in dopamine is going to create a groove in the nervous system where you're going to crave that thing. And it's going to give you a lower and lower sense of satisfaction over time in the only way to reset that circuit is to stop and do something else in its place, ideally, that's adaptive. These are people that are asking you how they can stop. You know, they're telling you, I can't stop.

2:24:15How do I do it? So, it can be similar to other addictions. You know, I mean, first, the admission part that it's a problem or awareness it is and then being able to start to talk to somebody and start to take some accountability around it. not accountability like you're doing something wrong, but to be able to have some sort of identify the behaviors that start leading to that. I mean, that can be done in therapy. There's other 12 -step groups that can help people with that to identify what their sobriety would look like if you wanna call it sobriety, what it looks like. And if it does involve not watching any porn, then that's the rule set that they have.

2:24:54And then they figure out either with their therapist or in their treatment center or with their sponsor or community in 12 -step, like how am I gonna be held accountable to that? And that might be doing the things like we talked about laying out, looking at your day ahead. At the beginning, they might need to look at things like, you know, there's ways and software out there to not be able to look at that on your phone or have an accountability partner that can, you know, they have to approve websites you go to. And that's not to say that they have to do that forever, but it's something that's available right, you know, 50 years ago or 30 years ago, someone had to like find their dad's Pornomag somewhere and then look at it, you know now it's on their phones or computers.

2:25:40Well, we know that accessibility, increasing accessibility increases addiction. Right. This has been studied over and over again and people say what about red light districts and things and there's some caveats that have to do with when you Create areas within cities where certain things are allowed, but you know, this has been tested many many times. It's also true and it's kind of a, but to quote on a Lemke, it's impossible to get addicted to a substance or a behavior that you've never taken or engaged in. So some things are best avoided entirely. Are there specific 12 -step programs for porn addiction that are separate from, say, sex addiction?

2:26:15If you, people look at up, I'm sure there's meetings out there that are specific to that. There are some treatment centers that have tracks that deal specifically with that. There's therapists that work very closely with that. and I believe that there are some 12 stuff, I mean there's pretty much 12 stuff programs for any sort of, you know, within things like essay or SLA, there'll be subsets of meetings for people that are with a very specific condition. And one of the reasons I wanted to discuss this today is because I hear about it so much is unlike alcohol or drugs, there's a kind of extra layer of shame associated with pornography addiction for people.

2:26:50You know, so many times we've heard, oh like this celebrity, was an alcoholic or drug addict, you know, wrapped their car around a pole, was arrested, this night. Then they get sober and everyone still loves them, loves them more, right? If we knew that a given celebrity was like a porn addict or something, we look at that person differently, especially if they're male. We just look at them differently. And so reducing some of the shame around it, I think it's key to helping them recover. Because I can tell, there's, that the questions initially came in kind of like, like as is often the case with men when they're trying to talk about issues, that they're kind of cloaked in like, what are your thoughts about no -fap, which is this thing where guys withhold a ejaculation?

2:27:32It does increase testosterone, it turns out in the short run it does, and the long term it's probably not good for the prostate, et cetera. But then they turned out they were really asking about masturbation, they were really asking about pornography, and then all of a sudden, I don't know what changed out there, but there's in the deluge of questions from young guys of how they can stop engaging in online porn. A key to that is what you said about we look at them differently. You know, they're going to keep it secret. You know, and there's a saying, secrets keep us sick, but I believe there's like a real almost a biology to that and that, you know, if you're holding it in, not sharing it, you know, there's no really place for it to go, but shame.

2:28:15And shame separates us. And separate, we're not connected. And not connected. We're alone and alone. We're, you know, we keep carrying that forward, alone we're dead. You know, maybe not in that sense anymore, like we talked about earlier, but like we're not really living. And so they're, you know, these guys are hearing you on a podcast and then DMing you, right? They're probably not in a personal close relationship with you, right? It's easier to send it there than maybe go ask for help with somebody in their area or go to a meeting or something like that because of the stigma. So it's good that you've opened up the ability for people to do that, but to continue to direct them back to, you know, let's try to treat this like we would any other addiction, at least from the standpoint of, You've got to talk about it.

2:29:07You've got to have some sort of admission. You've got to be able to find a community around it. You want to be able to do work most likely with a therapist or a team of therapists that can help you understand what's driving that behavior.

2:29:22And I've had long discussions about trauma before. That's something I've worked with for many years or most of my career as I came into being a therapist. Because in trauma therapy, we're often going back to seeing, we do a history and really kind of understand where the patterns started. And it's really helpful. For me as a therapist, when I can see where it is, because I can start making sense of how people are behaving this way as adults, when I can see all of the experiences they had, and especially the more negative, impactful ones, which tend to impact the brain, like you always say fastest way to plasticity is through a traumatic event.

2:30:06I believe that's how you say that. Yeah, one trial learning. It just takes once. Yeah. Unfortunately, but luckily there's plasticity in the other direction. It just takes a little longer. It takes a little longer. Yeah, I think that's where addiction comes in too, because you know, you can kind of feel a sense of plasticity. You know, if I'm drinking or if I'm doing drugs, right? I don't know if that's the actual term for it, but I'm not feeling like my brain is so stuck in that direction. and I can act a little bit differently. What comes to mind for, I mean, capsules all of it because it gets to the underlying mechanisms, I think is beware of the things that come easily and quickly.

2:30:44Like really beware of those things. If it's pornography and you can get to experience of, it's not the experience of sex, but the illusion of pseudo -sex, if it's easily available, beware of that thing. if it's a feeling of relaxation from a drink, beware of alcohol. If it's fast money. Yeah, if it's you are very proficient at, you know, you find you, you know, you lift a weight, you build muscle, you get attention for it, beware that thing because there are all these positive reward signals that are masking what soon will happen, which is that that thing is going to make you lopsided internally and make you crave it more.

2:31:28And so I think that there's something about this, things that come easy. It's a problem. And I think I kind of like that in the sense that, because many people are struggling and we don't often glorify the struggle, we're all trying to struggle our way out of struggle. But struggle is distress. And as long as we're struggling, we're in the distress tolerance. I'm not saying people shouldn't aim to succeed, but, um, and, and forgive me for going a little long on this reflection, but I remember in graduate school, I had a paper that got accepted by the journal science, which is like one of the three apex journals, Nature Science and Cell.

2:32:07And I was like over the moon. Yeah. Like, oh my god. Like, this is amazing. I first author paper in science. Like, some people never do that in a career I was doing as a graduate student. And, um, my dad, who's a scientist said, prepare for the week afterward when you wonder if you'll ever do it again. I was like, okay, kind of a postpartum crash. And then my graduate advisor, I said, do we get to celebrate? Do we get to like throw a meal or a party and she goes, no. Like I suppose I could buy you a pizza, but that would be stupid. And this is perfect. And very blunt. And she said, no, the pleasure was the work of doing the paper.

2:32:49And I was like, I got it. And that's what taught me to repeat that process. I didn't always publish in science, but certainly in other great journals, again and again, it's like that the reward is in the process. Like the effort is the reward. And if there's no process or no effort, I mean, and we don't struggle. In one way, we're struggling with so much. And in other ways, we don't struggle with the stuff that we probably need to struggle with to move the energy out of our body. I mean, Michael Easter's book, Comfort Crisis is great. It's like, we used to walk like 10 miles a day and we're not burning that energy.

2:33:24So we're just sitting there with this energy that used to just get disseminated. We wake up in the morning, move through the stressors of the day, good, bad, even good things are stressful. If you have to go to three birthday parties on a weekend, even if they're fun, you're tired at the end. Sounds like a dad. Yeah, it is a dad. I got a lot of birthday parties and try not to get sick because of, you know, at them, especially when they're at these little indoor. What's more rewarding, all -pacing kids, but what's interesting, Michael, is you know, with the comfort crisis, I mean, doing these hard, misogi, cheesy calls them, you know, I mean, think about like self -imposing discomfort so that you don't get pulled into the illusion of comfort by these other things.

2:34:05I mean, that I think it's come and clear to me now that the things that come easy are the traps. Yeah, they're the traps. So folks if you're really good at something Doesn't mean don't lean into it But if something comes really easily for you you have to be very mindful of that thing and other things around it Sounds like you created discomfort for yourself. Maybe there's like a discomfort Appetite that if we don't satisfy through healthy things. Yeah, we will satisfy through unhealthy things That's a very interesting concept. I mean, I don't know where that would exist in the nervous system But because you hear, oh, we're trying to avoid pain and go toward pleasure.

2:34:40But those models are, that's true. But those models are too simple. So I like the idea of a ration of discomfort to experience every day. Isn't it that we're kind of built to expend energy and then sleep? And then wake up the next day and expend energy and sleep. And if we're not expending the energy, how can we sleep? And then we wake up with more and we just carry the stressors from the day before, rather than just breaking it down. I mean, that's one of the beauties of recovery, where they talk about one day at a time. Well, one of the, you know, this last couple of weeks, there's always something each year that really pops, that gets kind of viral overnight.

2:35:15Last year it was the Hock tour girl. This year it's the morning routine guy, the guy that he shows his morning routine. And it got millions and millions of hits. And this guy does like cold water on the face, he's working, he's praying, he's doing all he's saying, he's wearing no shirt, he's super jacked. Like he was getting attention for different reasons anyway, huge following. and the best comment ever was, oh man, this guy's gonna come after me. He seems like he's got his life organized. Someone put a comment, this guy spends all day preparing for the next day, which is the worst thing about optimization, right?

2:35:51The whole purpose of tools like sleep or nidger and all these things that you can, and you taught me this. Really good protocols let you lean into life more, not less. It's not about withdrawing and getting into a wellness loop where you're just preparing for the next day Right. It's about being able to lean into the third birthday party where you're like, oh and the kids are sick And you know you're being exposed to all this stuff, but you're there because Your daughter needs to be there and she's elated to be there. Yeah. Can we put on the shelf that perhaps we have an appetite for discomfort that We can either satisfy through healthy things or on health.

2:36:28I think that's a a good way to put it. Can we call it the swav, Huberman? We can call it the... We'll go Huberman's swav. It's fine. Addiction means that somebody's already in the pit. Like they haven't done the, okay, I have an appetite for discomfort. I need to satisfy with adaptive things. They're in the pit. So if you would, if people out there listening are in a place where they're like, they know there, something's got them, as opposed to them having it, where they're wondering, or someone they know. And especially if it's somebody that they know, what do you suggest? I mean, this isn't kind of like, call the suicide hotline.

2:37:14I mean, unless they're suicidal, obviously. I mean, a lot of people don't have means to like start therapy with a world -class addiction therapist, trauma specialist, some do, some don't. What do people do? Well, there are a lot of options for people out there. Sometimes they don't think that they have them because they don't have means. In our centers, we strive to create access, and I know a lot of others do too, so it's not just people that pay out of pocket. There's insurance and you know we build some quality treatment centers for people with Medicaid in different states, you know that's We don't know what's happening with that at the moment, but you know it's Currently they can get treatment for that so if they're in a state where they needed like Detox or you know they're in a place where if they try to stop drinking or using it gets pretty significant There's services out there for them another great thing though is to just go straight into to a 12 -step meeting.

2:38:19They're everywhere. How do people find those meetings? Go online, Google, 12 -step in your area. If it's, you know, there's narcotics anonymous, there's alcoholics anonymous, there's cocaine anonymous, there's overeaters anonymous, there's gambling anonymous. I mean, if you, every one of them has a central office. The organizational structure, especially, of like, alcoholics anonymous is really incredible. We get to a whole episode on it. There's no, there's no leaders. It's a very flat organization. Politically unaffiliated. Politically unaffiliated, they have a vow of poverty. If somebody died and donated a million dollars, they can't take more than 10 ,000.

2:38:51Really? Yeah, there's only trusted servants. There's no leaders. There are people who are employed that do administrative work, but everything else. And it's been like this for 80 some years. It's really quite incredible. And there are online meetings. There's online meetings. They're all over the world. You can find them at any time. That's one of the beauties of 12 -step meetings. Is that, you know, obviously I'm a therapist. We have treatment centers. It's nice to get people to come to those. And it's great for people to be able to step out. But there's things that we can do that they can't.

2:39:26I mean, they're not going to medically detox them. They can't keep them out of like, you know, in a safe environment for a period of time. But a kid with a porn addiction, somebody who's abusing alcohol or addicted to food shopping, gambling, they can find a meeting. They can find a meeting. Yep, they can find a meeting. And I always tell people to try six different ones. They're free. You're going to find your group. I mean, listen, they're run by peers. So this is like something that was developed as, it would be like if somebody developed a therapeutic modality 80 years ago and then passed it on to everybody that they gave, every client they had, and then they ran it.

2:40:03I mean, it's not run by professional counselors, although there are professional counselors, and then there's every walk of life from, you know, been around people who are anything from priest to rabbis to doctors. There's no prejudice in the disease. But, you know, you can build a community where people are willing to help and be in service to each other. And, you know, you can't call a therapist any time during the night. You can't just look up and find a meeting and go. And at this point, with things online, you can find a meeting 24 hours a day anywhere. And the meeting's not going to solve it necessarily, but the fact that you're moving in that direction, you know, you're spending an hour, if you're spending an hour thinking and reflecting and talking about it, even if you're not like in silent meditation, it's almost like a meditation.

2:40:55If you're spending an hour hearing people talk about how they recovered and helping you, it's an hour that you're not doing the other thing. And in the beginning, that might be the white knuckling of it, right? But the idea is to get out of white knuckling. You know, and so the beauty of the 12 -step programs, which was founded by the guys that started Alcoholics Anonymous and then Dr. Bob Smith and Bill Wilson, and the way they discovered it was by helping each other. Bill Wilson had been trying to get sober for a long time. He had been introduced to something called the Oxford Group, which was more of a religious group based in Christianity and they had like a four, I think which the 12 steps are just kind of really expanded on.

2:41:36But in the literature, there's this beautiful moment where Bill Wilson had been trying to stay sober for a while, and he was, but he was really white knuckling it. And he'd been at his home in New York, he'd been going into the hospital and helping others. And he found by trying to help others, he stayed sober. And he's a guy that had struggled for a very long time. And none of those guys were staying sober, but he was, which was kind of, he first kind of conceptualized this. And then he was on a business trip in Akron, Ohio, which is where this Dr. Bob Smith lived. And he was staying at this hotel, I think it was called the Mayflower Hotel in the history.

2:42:14And he had come out of a business meeting, I think it didn't go the way he wanted, and he walked in, and in the stories describing hearing the bar and the kind of clinking of the glasses over here and the kind of the call of the bar. And he had some change in his pocket, and it was in the 1930s, early 1930s. Maybe 34, 35. And then there was a bank of phones over here. And so he was kind of pulled between the bar and the phones. And for whatever reason, he went to the phones, paused and he went there. And he called, I forget who he called, maybe the hospital and he asked if there was, I think he basically asked if there's any drugs in the town, he could help.

2:42:54And they directed him to, in some way, to this doctor who was like the local town doctor, Bob Smith, and he was also an alcoholic. It would struggle for a long time. And they met, and he went to his house or he might have been in the hospital at the time I could have the history a little bit wrong. But they met and started talking. And I think Bob relapsed one more time, but they started talking and helping each other. And then they went and helped another guy. And then they went and helped another guy. And there's a whole history to like how it developed and then how they wrote a book together.

2:43:29The book was really meant to send. It was written like four years later, send the information about alcoholism and alcoholics anonymous to everywhere in the country where they didn't have meetings. They started having these meetings and helping each other through this step process that they developed. And it's really interesting because this was one man's decision, you know, instead of going to the bar or going to the phone. Instead of going to the bar, he made one phone call and that transformed millions of lives. I mean, there's millions of members around the world. He was, I think he was called the other time magazine or life magazine's 100 Most Influential People of the 20th century.

2:44:12And there's still people who find recovery. And then he gifted those steps to all of the other things like cocaine, anonymous, and alcohol, exonamous. And it's not for everybody, and they'll even say that in literature. And that's why I wouldn't consider it a cult, because I'll say we don't have a monopoly. You know, and of course you're going to meet personalities in there. But the organization itself is agnostic to religion, to ideas, to politics. And it's a place that people can come in with a common problem and find a common solution. And these meetings can be the place that hold people as a container.

2:44:47I always see our treatment centers as like a container of space and time where people can come in and Really kind of let themselves fall apart and we can start helping them build their life back But these 12 -step meetings are like a container and they have a you know people will people are You know excited in there to reach out and connect with you and It's in those moments of connection that we can really find Healing I mean look at what happened to him instead of going into the bar and connecting with the people in there and drinking and you know he had enough evidence to show that drinking would you know it didn't take him in the right direction.

2:45:24He was able to make a phone call connect with somebody else and it created all these connections later on you know and it's not a place that people go just to white knuckle it. I mean that's why they might get in there. Nobody usually comes there because they you know had one bad night of drinking. It's usually as some people say no one comes in here a winner they've been on a losing streak and that's It's okay, but to be able to admit that and really discover who you are and share that with others and find frivolity and joy in the depths of people's pain and they can really understand that there's hope, there's promise, and there's a way out.

2:46:00And these people who are struggling aren't going to necessarily find that in their first meeting, but they might get the hope and the connection with others. And so they're available out there. And if you don't like the 12 step in the spirituality, there's other recovery programs out there, or other peer support groups out there, like smart recovery or refuge recovery, and they'll talk about things in a different way. So it's not about like finding a specific dogma, go out and try different things. You know, even the act of trying different things is gonna help them move out of being stuck in if it's like the porn addiction, right?

2:46:34And then people do reach a certain point in acuity, especially with drugs and alcohol, that they need to be in a facility. You know, and that might be a hospital, it might be a treatment center. And, you know, you can, there are resources for that. I think it's a good place for people to start if they don't have the resources to be able to attend a treatment center or work in therapy. Thanks for sharing that avenue for people with all sorts of addictions, not just alcohol. And for the families, Alonan for the people who is, is for the families, There's codependence anonymous, there's families anonymous, there's adult children of alcoholics anonymous or adult children of alcoholics is really about

2:47:16dysfunctional family systems that people might have grown up even if their parents were in alcoholics. So there's stuff out there for For everyone prior to this conversation I solicited for questions from the internet about addiction, broadly speaking, and got some great questions. The first question is, is addiction the problem, they put the in quotes, or is addiction an attempted solution to a different, but less obvious problem? The short answer to that is both. The addiction is really the solution to some sort of discomfort or stress that they're experiencing, but then the addiction itself becomes problematic.

2:48:00I would say that addiction is the solution in the sense that it's the person's attempt to solve or to find relief from whatever stressor they're experiencing, but it's a solution that becomes problematic. So it takes on a life of its own. It becomes its own trauma itself. Drinking alcoholically and blacking out is a trauma to your body, to your the things that people do in addiction become more traumatic. I think there's this cycle that I always use in the background called it's trauma stress and addiction and expanding the definition of trauma to wound. It starts with a wound and then stress is the relationship to that wound, much like a limp after a broken leg.

2:48:42And when stress gets big enough, people look for relief and so they look to behaviors or substances which then can if the stress is big enough and repeated can become alcoholic. So that stress is not really the wound, it's the relationship to it. Like I said, the limp after the broken leg, but that limp, while it's not the broken leg, informs how we walk or don't walk, how we run or don't run, how we view ourselves, how we view the other people in the world view us. And all of those things together can lead to a level of stress where people find relief and since it's chronic then they keep using but then the behaviors and things that they do while they're using or drinking create a trauma itself which then leads to more stress which then leads to more addiction.

2:49:28So it becomes kind of this perpetual motion machine if you will. So the medicine becomes the source of stress. Yeah. Our GLP1 agonist things like ozempic, wagovi, etc. being used for addiction outside the context of weight loss. Interesting question. And will this happen in an official capacity or remain off -label use, they're asking your opinion. Are GLP ones being used to treat addiction to food and do you think it can be useful for treating addiction to other things? I believe that there's some initial research going on that it can help with cravings and addiction in general. It makes sense to me.

2:50:13I mean, I've heard that anecdotally over the years that people that were diabetic and also alcoholic, but the diabetics that maintained their blood sugar properly had less chance of relapse. I mean, there's this very simple kind of acronym called Halt. You may have heard of hungry, angry, lonely, tired, which seems so simple. you said drive me crazy, but it's so true that people tend to be at higher risk for relapse or using when they're either hungry, they're angry, they're lonely, they're tired, and sometimes those things are all together, and those are times in which I would imagine their system is looking for something to, I mean, if you're hungry or looking to elevate your blood sugar, and if you can maintain that, I would imagine that it would have some interesting effects.

2:51:02I was just at a meeting with some of the executives of the major insurance companies. Our company has a private meeting with them and they were talking about some of the things that they're looking for. I don't know that I'm sure it's been used off label, but I don't know of anybody that's using it yet on label for any of that. Can somebody be addicted to stress, meaning are habits addictions? Those are sort of two questions. Clever, this person snuck in two questions. First question, can somebody be addicted to stress? I think that people can be set, have their nervous system set in a way that they need that level of stress or activation in order just to kind of get to baseline in order to kind of feel alive.

2:51:47I've seen that a lot when I worked with, when I've worked with especially special forces, combat veterans coming home, a lot of the mundane stuff almost didn't feel like they felt alive. Of course, this isn't everybody. This is the ones that were coming to me, but that they needed to be involved in really risky behaviors or really high adrenaline behaviors. It felt like they were just getting to baseline of being normal. It wasn't even taking them to another edge. That makes sense to me because a lot of basic training or the training that they do later on for more special forces is while it's skills training, it's really nervous system training, right?

2:52:30It's the ability, you could, it's the ability to do those skills under an extreme amount of stress or lack of sleep and everything like that. So if they're kind of oriented in that way, then when they come home or they're in environments where it doesn't, it takes a lot to bring them up just to that level of like what might feel normal for them. They're kind of system is set up much higher than here and they've got to get up to that to just feel alive. So I don't know if addicted, maybe it is addicted. I feel like they have a need, you know, to drive. It's a drive in ten city addiction. That's it.

2:53:11You and I know some people with that. Yes. Yeah. I'd like to know about social behavior addictions, social media, coffee, sugar, even work addiction. And as always, thank you for tackling hard topics. I guess that was directed toward me, but you're the one who's about to try and tackle this topic. So are those things really addictions? Are people addicted to sugar, addicted to coffee? Do they meet the classic definition of addiction? Well, they're not going to meet a diagnostic criteria. Progressive, etc. Yeah, but it's always this progressive. I don't know if it was was it on your podcast or did I read about this somewhere else where when they took, you know, there's the classic a study about taking rats with cocaine.

2:53:58And they'll they'll they'll water and cocaine. And they would like press that lever thousands of times to get the cocaine. Somebody else repeated that, but added one that had sugar in it. And their cocaine use went significantly down when sugar was also present. Well, methodics will consume sugar and meth more readily than either one alone. I mean, I and we see this different drug. We see this when people get sober, or that there's people that will get very heavy, they'll engage in what looks like a food addiction. And when we peel that back, I can't tell you how many times I've heard of, people recognizing their first addicted behavior was going to the sugar bowl and taking spoonfuls of it.

2:54:41I've actually heard people say that food addiction and probably specifically around sugars often the primary addiction for people. It's kind of like how they get in there. I'm sure that's not true for everybody. But I think if we broaden the term of addiction beyond what a Use disorder is in the DSM and move towards do you have it or does it have you? Absolutely, I mean, I don't think we can become sugar dependent in a way that if we stop it we're gonna go into some sort of Major withdrawal, but I would imagine there'd be some sort of withdrawal Same with caffeine. I've seen people go into psychosis with caffeine I mean, there's never want to find out what happens if I quit.

2:55:21You might just always be in psychosis, caffeine psychosis. Thanks for that. No, not you. I mean, I love caffeine, but I can take that out. I can sleep well. No, no, that's fine. I actually can sleep on it too. Well, I don't drink caffeine past 2pm occasionally. I don't either, but once in a while I do, and it doesn't, you're definitely getting less REM sleep in there. I'm sure I am. But you look rested, so. Not last night. A lot of questions about eye -begin, probably because the incredible work of my colleague Nolan Williams at Stanford, these single eye -begin trials for people getting over alcoholism, meaning one, taking eye -begin once or twice, and mostly in veterans, was covered on the Rogan podcast and Nolan's been on here.

2:56:05What are your thoughts on the use of eye -begin and other psychedelics? Let's leave MDMA out of it because that's more for the treatment of trauma. and it's not actually a classic psychedelic, but things like psilocybin, I began for people seeking relief from alcohol and drugs, specifically, but maybe other addictions. You know, I've seen some pretty incredible things happen with people. It's, and I'm glad that the studies have been going on specifically around psilocybin in the US. I'm not really aware of any around I began. So anybody that is doing I began treatments are either, you know, I don't know if they're finding it in the US or they're going to Mexico or whatever, which has to be done in Mexico.

2:56:44They're doing the brain scans at Stanford before and after. It's not currently in the new. So they are doing some studies around it. The rates of remission from alcohol use disorder and other substance use disorders is somewhere, there's a range, but 40, in some cases, 80 % with one or two, I have a gain in trials, but this is with therapeutic support. There are a bunch of other things happening there. And then there's evidence of brain plasticity in a number of brain areas. So I don't know enough about the studies happening before, like they were doing this where Stanford was doing a study and taking people down to Mexico or people going down there to do it.

2:57:22It was kind of a lot of, I don't know how it's to say it, but Renegade folks doing it outside wasn't always run by medical teams and people making sure that everybody is safe, at least from my experience, although then I've seen some amazing things around it. My general take on psychedelics, If I look at PTSD, post -traumatic stress disorder, I really see that as you could almost substitute state disorder in there for stress because people get stuck in a certain state and it's called the survival state. And you know, that's, as I've said, one of our biggest challenges is that we go into survival mode and we don't need to go into survival mode, an appropriate response at an inappropriate time.

2:58:05And so things like psychedelics, or we actually can see this with breath work can help people have an experience where they recognize another state, you know, that they can be in another state, not another state of the US, but like they have access to something other than survival. And those touchstone experiences can really give them something to build on. I think like any other approach to medicine that seems miraculous at times, there's a lot out there of this worked for me so everybody should try it. There's what I'm most concerned, I'm not concerned about the effectiveness of overall of psychedelics because I think there's definitely a place for them but I'm really most concerned about the ethics that we develop around them who's delivering it.

2:58:53What are the rule outs? You know, I know we were going to leave MDMA out but I know some of the map studies, it was like three sessions I think it was over and I don't think that the world that kind of sees those is then taking that, especially in the personal development world, going, we're going to do three sessions that can kind of come be something that we do all the time, you know, or microdosing all the time. I don't know enough about it to see if that's going to have an impact. And, you know, there are people with psychological and psychiatric disorders that can really impact in another way, you know, definitely.

2:59:27It gets a title,

2:59:35it gets a of selling saved a lot of people, but then there's people that it kills, right? I can eat peanuts and get protein out of them and I know people that eat peanuts and they can die. So we lousy source of protein, but lousy source of protein, eggs, let's say. But there's a real, we need to really understand the ethics around it and the time frame and then make sure that people are following that up with something because I think you've used this example before of like kind of being on a trampoline and you can jump up and see the top of the building. You know, and you can see where you want to be, but you haven't built a staircase or the elevator yet.

3:00:07We got to go out and build a staircase in the elevator. So I think they're a great window into how we can be in an experience of this person that I can be, but I don't think that there's going to be like some immediate structural change that's going to last. And the danger in that is then people start using that over and over again and can lean on that as a as a as a crutch. Last question. If we know somebody or are close to somebody that's clearly suffering from addiction or struggling with addiction, what can and should we do? This sounds like somebody who is aware of the all -too -common scenario of this kid, this parent, this coworker, this significant others, clearly an alcoholic, clearly a drug addict, clearly addicted to fill in the blank.

3:00:53What can people reasonably do assuming that person is not in a medical crisis yet? I think one of the biggest things we can do is talk to them but also without shaming them. And if you don't know how to talk to them, reach out for some help yourself. Like I said, there's family support meetings like Alonon that you can go to. So if you reach out to a treatment center like ours, you can we're happy to talk to the families and help point them in the right direction. But having an open conversation without shaming them and understanding that this is approaching it with the idea that this is a disease and a like we're talking to a sick friend now that we're talking to a bad person.

3:01:42Can I ask slash offer one which is if a 12 -step meeting is an open meeting as they call it? Like an open A meeting? You could offer to go with them when they do the around the circle thing if you go and you don't want to say anything, you just say pass, no one. And a lot of places they don't even do around the circles. You could go with them to them. You could take them to a meeting. Yeah, as long as it's in what's called an open meeting, you don't have to be an alcoholic like a genetic to go to that meeting and so you could take them. You could even go and just observe, believe it or not, some non -alcoholics have come to 12 -step meetings that were open meetings to learn more about it, to then be able to go help somebody that they know.

3:02:23And reach out and find a therapist that can do an assessment in our mission to create access. We have been really doing some kind of innovative stuff around virtual care and in -home care. So when there are people that are resistant and maybe if they even, it is true that they need to go to a residential treatment center that we can offer this different service that's a much lower cost and covered by insurance that we can come in and kind of build a relationship with them. And you know, in some way sometimes it works for them and they're able to move through it and other times we're able to help them witness their failures and then having done complete assessments with them, get them to the correct level of care and make sure that the family has everything they need.

3:03:04So those options are out there as well. I've seen the work you do help so many people, so many people, and so I'm just very, feel very lucky. You come on here and share with a lot, a lot more people. And I'm sure you'll get some outreach. We'll put links to where people can find you and some of the resources and things that you're up to, and the papers and other things mentioned. But yeah, on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, I just want to say thank you. You're doing incredible work. I was reflecting on this a lot before coming out here, but you know, I really appreciate What you do in the world and especially knowing you and knowing how and why you started it and there wasn't this grand vision at the end It was like I'm just gonna help people today.

3:03:49I mean you literally was like I'm gonna help people today I'm gonna write do these little diagrams and these little things and I'm gonna help them today and Helping people today and the next day and the next day you know, has led to you having such an impact in the world. You know, I was telling someone on your team earlier, your work makes my work easier. I've had men specifically, mostly men that come to me more open because of what they've heard you talk about. And conversely, I've had men that were working with that are very closed off and then I'll have them listen to something that you've done and it opens them up.

3:04:30My wife wanted me to tell you she's a therapist too, and she was running a group this morning with a group of kind of more mentally ill folks, and they were doing a group on stress management, and she used a video of the physiological side. So she wanted to say thank you for that. But I know lots of therapists that are using that, and you make our jobs easier by bringing awareness to the challenges and problems that are out there. So I really appreciate that. Plus, I just appreciate you as a human being, and very much value our friendship. Thank you for that. That's extremely gratifying to hear.

3:05:07And I'd be remiss if I didn't say that we're not for you and your support and the many things you've taught me and our friendship. I definitely wouldn't be doing this. And maybe we wouldn't even be here today at all in the biggest sense. So thanks for everything. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Ryan Swav. To learn more about Ryan's work and to find links to the various resources discussed during today's episode, please see the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

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