Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe

35:34He goes, I wish I have all the emails. I keep, I keep certain emails and voice messages. And I just, I just, that's my own nostalgia. But like, I have a, I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying, thank you for getting me into watercolors. And I was like, dude, my fucking hero, like, yes like it's such a good feeling um I have a voice message from Pee Wee Herman which I'll share later and all my early emails with Sean Parker I kept just because it was he's such an interesting like wonderful I know like the image of him but like I I we don't talk like as like we used to but I still consider him a friend and I'm forever grateful to him but so he I met him at a time when like I mean I don't even know how to I mean like just complete disgrace and shame to my family you know it's like the immigrant story talk to any immigrant why the fuck did you leave your home to come to another country because it was shitty there that's it you're not born in a country and you're like dude let's leave right the only reason why anyone's here is because it was shitty where you were at right so then they all it doesn't matter if you're asian or mexican whatever you came here for a better life and what does that mean work your ass off so we are we're in a nation of workaholics right this is an entire country of workaholics so my parents you know i didn't go through it but they're like japanese tanks rolled down the street and you know they have the typical like fucking war famine all that stuff so they get over here and like born and raised in los angeles you know it's like don't know who i am don't know where i belong just bullied abandoned abused over and over and just i didn't even really know the concept of suicide but i hated myself like i couldn't live in my like it felt like i was burning inside my own body and so um even made fun of like like i listened to we have the same taste in music i listen to minutemen minor threat you know i'm blasting uh down set inside out sound garden slaves and bull i used to put on sound garden slaves and bulldozers punch myself it's like just like i'm in my room a teenager just punching myself as hard as i can just to like go into like a berserker rage um and i and i just back then like i found pornography and it was just so soothing like it was like getting high like i would just masturbate like over and over again so i'm i'm like master but i would do like weird self-harm i guess the kids call it edging but i could i'd masturbate but then not come and then beat myself up and i'm going through puberty and I would go out and I'd shoplift spray cans, like just at, you know, hardware stores.

38:39And I'm listening to, you know, I would get like a Faith No More, like in Living Colors, just like some song and I would just like an OCD, just repeat like some lyric in it. I am a patient boy. And I would just like go into like a trance and I would just go out and I would just fucking spray paint. And I'm living at home. So I'm not hiding this shit. I come home, my hands covered in black paint. This is what we fucking came to this country for? This is why we fucking left another country so you could come here and not be an artist, but dude, like, you're a disgrace. You're a disgrace to our race.

39:18You're, you know, and my dad would just like fucking throw me against the wall. And I'm like, I don't care, dude. I don't care what you're, like, do you understand? Like, I wasn't, like, actively trying to kill myself, but I didn't, like, do you understand that everything you care about, I don't care? Do you get that? And, like, you know, you start the show, and I was laughing because it's like, hey, I'm Andrew Huberman, scientist, Stanford, this, and I'm like, I don't care. Like, I like Andy. Like, I like that, you know? And then I was like, you know what? This is like stolen valor. Sean Parker starting Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg.

40:02You know, I'm there at the beginning. And so he brings me in. And at the time, when I first, this is years, the emails back and forth. He's like, I need, because the energy I was putting out at the time was what I'm telling you right now. Just, I don't give a fuck. I don't care what you care about. Like, I don't, like, it's just complete. I don't care if I go to jail. I don't like I'm just painting on everything and it's like graffiti graffiti is vandal it's not an art it's not graffiti artist or street art it's fucking vandalism it's a crime and people are telling me anyone out there doing street art like there's so many rules there's so many like what did you write did you used to tag or anything no but I did good stuff if you skated you definitely had like a there were some kids in our crew that cubes what did you tag come on because I had friends who were like graffers and they were they like boxed us out you know the undershadows kids you never did graffiti no but we can talk about this later i want to hear i want to hear from you now but later we should talk about orphan and the undershadows crew which is a which is a kind of a thing in the bay area yeah yeah he was a good friend of mine but anyway i didn't graffiti okay so i grew i drew on my grip tape all right that's that's good but no i wasn't a tagger wasn't a graffiti guy yeah so i'm out doing like that and you know like you know we can have like a conversation about creativity and this and that and it's like I can't it's it's very hard to talk about it's because it's like can you teach a craft can you teach a skill can I teach you to paint the Mona Lisa yeah I know how to do all that I know how to like I went to school like I taught myself I watched videos like you could teach yourself how to paint something to make it look like something that's a teachable skill but creativity where does that come from are you just born with it is it from deprivation is it's like it's like a you know i could i can only share what my path my my path is and it's like the embarrassment like you're asian you need to get a 4.0 you need to get into ucla You need to be a doctor or a lawyer.

42:16And it's like me, I'm on the middle child, me and my two brothers, like long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk. Why are you doing that white shit? You know, like, and then you've got Asian kids that are into heavy, you know, it's like there's no identity, right? And then it's just like lost. Just like what the fuck is, you know, like we don't belong anywhere. Just like the Asian depictions in media is like long duck dong. Asians have small dicks. They can't drive. They're good at math. It's just nothing's good, right? And I'm like, I, you know, I'm just trying to figure out my way in this world.

42:53And I remember Sean just was attracted to like whatever, whatever little art I'd start getting some noticed in juxtaposed. And I was starting to do graffiti everywhere. And, and he's like, I want that. whatever that is I want that like I want to be part of that and I said and I forgot what my painting it was it was like right when I couldn't sell a painting and then all of a sudden they were selling for a couple thousand and he's like and he was a teenager still and he goes my my I want your art but the problem is I'm being sued right now for a trillion dollars because every single song is a is a lawsuit you know I mean whatever he it ended up the way it ended up But I remember he goes, I'm getting, he showed me a screenshot or whatever.

43:40He's like, I'm being sued for$1 trillion right now. So I can't really afford your art, but like, I'm going to get it. You know, so we, we started this relationship and he would send me these crazy, like abstract texts of emails of what he wanted me to paint. And then, and then, uh, he started another company called Plaxo. And he's like, uh, no, no. And then finally you're catching me in the South Bay. You know, I, I met this girl. we fell in love and I moved to San Jose just the most culturally dead place and everyone's like rollerblading working at Apple or MySpace or eBay or you know some some tech startup and they're like we're cool because we have a trampoline and a you know we have a like a kitchen area where you can have all the Red Bull and snacks you want and we have bunk beds so we And like, that's also, you could just keep working, you know?

44:33And so I meet Sean and he's like, dude, we're starting this company called Facebook. And like, we finally have some money. And like, dude, this is, and he's like, where are you at? And he didn't know all this, but I had just gotten out of prison. I was in jail in Japan because I had beaten up a undercover security guard. I was 27 when I got out and I owed everyone money. I owed my girlfriend money. I owed and so I needed money bad and um I was in like a lot of trouble I like was I didn't know how how I was gonna pay everyone back because it's really hard to sell a painting you know but my paintings did sell once in a while and they were starting to get pretty expensive and then uh all the art that I did in jail um I used to work for Vice magazine I say work because but I never got paid but you know i i they didn't pay you no i i think people if anyone's listening is a little side tangent is um and it's gonna definitely sound like ocd like i'm keeping a list and maybe i am because i don't think about it but i i was sitting the other day and i go

45:42they all owe me money everyone i've ever worked for like every like people like i gotta get like Like someone develops a skill, like I'm good at songwriting or this or that. And then they go, well, I got to like the young people's men. Well, that's my craft. I got to get paid. I go, I never got paid. I work for Nike, Levi's, Ruka, Giant Robot, Vice, fucking even my friend, Steve Aoki. And like just all every like 88 Rising. If I sit here, I'll name everyone. But like either they didn't pay me my what they said or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me or or they just never paid me.

46:20You know, and I met Gavin McInnes when he started Vice and he had seen some of the art that I did in Giant Robot. He saw that I went to the Congo. He saw like and he's like, hey. And it was all punk rock advice when it was like the big format. And he's like, dude. And he just believed in me. I don't know what he saw. He's like, dude, send me a drawing of cops beating up this. And I did it fast. I did it. He's like, I need it by tomorrow. And I was like, I can do it. And then he's like, he just was like, hey, write me a story about some shooting in LA Koreatown gangster shit. And I go, but I'm not, he's like, just, just do it.

46:58And at one point that was another figure that was resonated my mom of like the rules. The reality doesn't apply. I'm sitting there going wait but I'm not a journalist I didn't fact check anything and there was some issues of vice where I wrote five different articles under a woman's name a black guy's name you know like just made up names articles just to fill up pages and I would have done the comic section illustrations music review uh street you know fashion you know the do's and don'ts and I'm just like you can do that and like I had already been groomed for that because of my mom it's like no reality doesn't apply you just my mom thinks I'm the best artist and now here's you know so Sean's like okay and and so I'm I'm in what I feel is like purgatory the 408 San Jose Milpitas you know I'm just like what the fuck is this like and I'm telling myself I got to get there.

48:02When I get to New York, it's like this Golden Gate, like end of the Golden Road, like Wizard of Oz. Like when I get there, then I'm going to get discovered. And then someone's going to be like, and because what is it? You know, like people are like, what is, and I go, I can be a hater. I can be a loving, sweet, selfless person. I could be like a very hard, judgmental hater to myself. and and so I take this so seriously like what we're doing here today is talking I mean it's mostly me talking I could see that but it's like we're having a conversation but I think without sounding it's like I I think it's important that's why I'm here like I like I said like I'm like why I I feel like I trust you even though I just met you but like yeah I fucking puked down the street because I get I go what's the upside like I'm gonna talk and then maybe I say something that I didn't mean or I say it the wrong way or it gets clipped weird or edited.

49:01And I go, I think it's important. I want to come. I want to talk to you. And that's how I feel about my art. So what is that? What is art? What is creativity? And for me, it's like, I think sports are very gay, especially skateboarding. Like, if I never played sports, I would have never seen another man's penis. You know, like, and then in my time in sports, it was very rough because I wasn't, I told myself, any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing. I suck at drawing. And I go, why did you do that? Why did you immediately shoot yourself? Like, who said that? Did someone else say that?

49:38Or did you say that? They start with saying something negative. And I go, and then I go, that's exactly what I say. If they try to teach me how to throw a free throw, I go, oh, this is going to suck. And they go, why did you do that? and so for me growing up I grew up with in a lot of black neighborhoods where the second you know I don't know how to play basketball but the second I try and I fuck up it's like look at the Chinese kid fucking try and I'm so I go all right you know what I'm not even gonna try it you know and it's like well you should just come at like five in the morning when no one was there you know but like I was so sensitive I was like I don't want to so I did things in the you know it's art is a solitary sport for the most part you know I'm not there's no rob there there's it's just me like like even in the thing it's like this like don't look at my sketchbook and but in here I can fuck up and fix a race whatever but so like in sports you know it's like you're slapping guys asses you're taking showers with them you're you're doing all this like male bonding stuff you're just spending a lot of time with other men right like uh and i'm like oh god like what is the feeling i'm trying to isolate the feeling what like what and i remember because i i don't like i tell this stuff not to be like feel sorry for me i'm a victim i don't feel like that i mean this i'm just i'm telling you i'm telling you what happened and part of it is you do like, what would you rather, would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes or have the whole world read your diary?

51:16You know, like these kind of, and luckily I had both happen. You know, I've been beaten to an inch of my life. I've had, like, I've had broken bones. I've been stabbed. I've been burned. I've been like everything physically you can think of. And I'm still here, right? So there's not much, like, Like, because I have my mom's delusion, like, when I talk to Joe, and he's shorter than me, but I know he could probably, like, logically, I know he could probably kick my ass. I have no fighting background. But in my head, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I could kick his ass. And he would fucking, and that's just the way I walk through life.

51:55Like, I still believe in Santa Claus. People go, I can't believe I just said that. I think that's the first time publicly I've ever said that. We're coming up on Christmas. By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade. And indeed, that's true. The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet, while also providing support for a demanding life.

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53:15It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors. If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim a special offer. Just go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to get started. I just remember there's, I don't know, it's changed now, but I remember when I was a kid, it was around six or seven when they start going, there's no fucking Santa. But I was eight and I was like, and they're like, how dumb are you? and I understand this reflects back to my mom and Jesus. I go, and they go, but you've literally never got any presents from Santa.

53:52And I'd go to shame. I go, because I'm a bad kid. I cussed. I was like, I stole stuff from the supermarket. You know, like, and they're like, hey, fuck face. Santa's not real. And I just was like, but he is. I believe that he is. and and i i believe i go there's there's him not giving me a present is like because i put him in this god category maybe he's not god but maybe he's a god like a demigod or something and they go how is he how does he know if you're naughty or nice i go telepath how does he how does he get every fucking present to every kid in that time i'm like oh he's a mutant he can multiply he can make copies of himself how does he get through that tiny chimney and go teleport like i just it's not even a question i just know i i believe it and i don't care how stupid you think like i guess this is me coming out with my santa claus but it's just like i just believe that and you can't say anything to make me not believe that that's my blind faith that i got from my mom so like every christmas i'm 50 i'm almost 50 i'm a fucking middle-aged man that and i go maybe maybe this is the year i'm gonna but now i look back and i go the gift he gave me of giving me nothing gave me everything right so i i'm i'm sitting there and i i'm drawing but i have that story in my head too like i suck oh fuck that doesn't look like batman oh his arm looks weird you know and then at some point Amen.

55:31to this day, all the physical and emotional pain, sorry, just the physical pain, it passes. I've broken bones. I've had my face just pummeled, like just where you wouldn't reckon disfigured. But it passes. And if I think back, I don't remember it. But the pain that stays is like heartbreak, you know, betrayal, abandonment. And I just remember my dad would make us keep a journal because he just wanted us to start learning how to write. And it started with if I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review. and it was like we were eight years old seven years old just you know today we saw karate kid johnny got chased by skeletons the end you know it was like that like a little kid you know but he's like you have to do it goonies was cool you know so we kept the thing but then he never asked to read it he just wanted us to do it and i was like oh so i started like getting more brave i was like i really like this girl at school and like and i would just start getting really vulnerable and open and just knowing because my brothers don't give a shit like but then the thought of like what if someone ever read this so i was like opening myself up and just letting and i was like oh my god like it felt so good like like i can't tell anyone like i'm having these kind of feelings or like, you know, like I fucking hate dad, you know, like, you know, whatever.

57:03And I would take the bottom drawer out of my desk out and I would hide it under there. And I shared a room with my brother. So I always did it when he, you know, I thought I was being secretive. And I was somewhere between seven, eight, nine. It just, you know, as you get better at writing and I got more, once I got more comfortable knowing that no one, I just started writing everything. like my brother fucking fart smell like I wish you know just like everything I would write just just completely and I came one day and I saw both my brothers on the bed reading it and it I remember my face just like it felt so hot like like I felt like someone had just like ultimate betrayal and and it was like being naked that's why I bring up the like I felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys showering like slapping like it was the most vulnerable like they were being so merciless you like her and you did that I can't believe you you know because I wrote everything in that journal and I I thought I I was gonna die from shame and embarrassment and they you know like the way kids are brothers can be it was merciless and they made fun of me for years for that and in the same way my face was disfigured and I've had physical abuse and all that i lived through it and i was like i'm still here and so why the fuck am i gonna be a pussy when i draw when i draw no more like i'm gonna draw batman like this artist or that artist oh i'm gonna draw like you know like okay that's fine you're like trying to figure out how to work with tools and but and that's fine skill craft great but like this like showing you Like, so there's, I had been trained now for heartbreak, right?

58:59Like a lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated, bullied, rejected. And then finally they figure out how to draw something where people were like, yes, we like that. And so they never grow. They do that same verse, that same flow forever. And then you got people like Andre 3000. They're like, I don't care. I'm going to, I don't care what, you know, I'm going to do flute shit. It's like, well, we don't like that. And it's like, I don't care. I'm an artist. I'm going to, you got someone like Flea who's like, I'm going to just do performance art. And I'm like, I don't even like half that shit, but I just love them because they're, and I go, how fucking brave is that?

59:35How brave is that? But I remember just to this day, right? I am a very successful established artist. And yet today there's people that are like, that's the fucking worst art I've ever seen. And I go, cool. But if you don't have that background of just having your heart ripped out, it is the most painful thing to put yourself out on a camp, like to pour your, that's you, that's your soul. And someone's like, and then especially if you're trying to sell it, you're like, no thanks, you know? So to have a guy like Sean Parker, who's younger than me, but just not even the art he's just like i like you like whatever that is and then i want to change the world with this kid that i met mark zuckerberg and so i meet him with his flip-flops and you know i meet the whole crew and i and i go what do you want me to do he's like i want you to fucking paint everything i want people to be scared i want investors to be scared when i want everyone to just be like we're not myspace we're not ebay we're not i want them to be horrified when they come in here.

1:00:49I want you to just fucking paint the microwave, like everything. And I go, indoors, right? And he goes, yeah. And I go, all right. So just like cover up your computers. And then they're like, no, we're going to be working here. And I'm like, you know how toxic these chemicals, like I work in spray paint. Like I have brain damage because of this shit. Like I have like memory issues. They're like, we don't care. You know, they're like young. They're like, fuck the world, hack the world, like all that shit. Hack the world. They love, you know. So I was there and they would be like, let's fucking blast Daft Punk.

1:01:25Like, I don't, this is a world I'm not, you know, I like going into different worlds. And they're like, we're going to blast Daft Punk. Because I guess it's like something with the repetitiveness and the Cody. And we're going to do these hackathons where we just fucking hack into shit and fucking. It was punk rock. It was like a very nerdy punk rock. But they're like, we don't give a fuck. And I like that spirit. But they were such nerds. and they were so earnest there there was a you've never heard people talk like that where they're talking they're like and we're gonna change the world and I'm like I'm into that whatever that is and they thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email I go I I because I'm not on social media like I never I'm a Luddite I don't I'm the last to whatever new technology I'm like all right like I've never touched AI any of that and and so I it's like you guys are trying to be like myspace but myspace is it's already here like for the young people listening like there was no facebook there was no instagram it was myspace it was just dominated and they're like yeah but we're we're fucking myspace for ivy league you know oh that's right in 2007 that's right because that was a postdoc in order to get facebook you had to have it was an ivy league or a stanford email yeah technically you're not in the only one motherfucker stolen valor so i love it so i forgot what it was it was like choey at stanford edu and but like i remember he gave it still exists i don't know he's he i remember him giving it to me like it's something i wanted i was just painting he's like dave you don't have to go i'll get you a stanford email and then you could be part of facebook i'm like i don't want to be i don't i don't care i don't care what you like you want to be you and mark and all these guys want to be in this like and they're like he was like confused because he's like you don't want the whatever like respect and whatever comes with having a stanford and i go no i hate education i hate learning i hate teachers i hate like what the fuck are you talking about and he he was like i go why don't you just make it for everybody and he's like oh like you know the thing is like Like, it was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out because it's just an awesome movie, but it's just, I was there for all of it and just did not, like some of the facts are right, but it just didn't go down that way, you know?

1:03:54But, so Mark is like a genius. And Sean, I mean, similar to my mother. It's like, I think Naomi's still there. It was like Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin, and me just like gassing them out. They're just trying to code, like, and I'm like listening to all their conversations and I'm like telling them how nerdy they are. I'm like, bro, make it for everybody. Don't, you know, like, and they're like, and I would listen in on all their conversations. They're like, ah, so fucking cool. Dave Cho's painting our office. And I was like, oh, they like me, you know, like I'm being validated, not just by my mother, you know?

1:04:35And so, you know, I do everything backwards and we start to discuss payment, you know. And at that time, I had once in my life sold a painting for like 10 grand. And it was like a fluke. And that's another story that I could tell about rejection and all that. But so I just did some dumb, ignorant math. I was like, well, that painting was this big. And I was like, 60 grand, you know. And I needed that. I needed that to pay off everyone. And then at the time, up until going to jail, like I had been a thief. I was doing a lot of stealing to support my, like I was like, I'm, graffiti doesn't pay the bills, you know.

1:05:17Stealing your paint. Stealing everything. Was Facebook office painted with stolen cans? Probably, probably. Yes, yes. Yeah. My graph friends, graph, graffiti for those that don't know. Yeah, yeah. They were like world-class crooks. Yeah, yeah, of course. Because they were always stealing pens and paint and, you know, I mean. Exactly. I mean, it's like it doesn't pay the bills, you know. So what had transferred, you know, the nature of addiction, if you don't get to the root of it, it just keeps jumping, right? Like whack-a-mole. So it whack-a-mole into my background, which is watching my parents take huge – so I got into gambling.

1:06:00So I was just – like there was every paycheck, anything, it was always – I got to figure out a way because gambling feels like stealing and it's, you know, and I sat there and I, and people were just like, you work at Facebook. Like that's, you know, my friends that aren't in that academia and they're just like, that's like the, the, the shitty MySpace, you know, like look at the font, look at the, you know, all the artsy credit, like look at the designs, the fucking, you know, what is that? The name, Facebook, come on. Like that's the most creative, you know, and I said I think uh I'm gonna ask them if I could get shares in the company you know um you understand did you understand that no I don't understand anything and it's like I have shares in other companies that are all worthless right like it was just it was growing up with my mom watching her that if I didn't have that like I just and I don't even understand that shit I just I remember being with uh having lunch with uh Zuck's uh parents and like you know he doesn't he comes from a nice family and i think yahoo or microsoft someone had offered him right in the beginning a billion dollars for it he's like no thanks and he's still sleeping on the fucking mattress on the ground eating doritos and i'm like like you know i'm trying to like pay my fucking uh all my friends back and i'm like oh he doesn't give a shit he doesn't care about money like he cares about like what he cares about it's like such a singular focus he's like i want to fucking disrupt the I want to bring the whole world together it was you know youthful idealism and I remember uh uh going to work uh one day I just loved working there because I don't get jobs like that where they're like paint everything like like you're you're here like doing this and I'm painting around like I'm painting on everything and and the best part is that they didn't even like what I was painting like Mark would come and he's like what is that dude and like Sean's like Dave you know that other thing you did I saw at the art show can you and I was like you didn't ask for that you said fucking destroy like you said scare people when they walk you know um as I recall there's like a there was like a big primate like monkey with jagged teeth and yeah I was I was you know and I was gassing myself out you know like I'm like doing all that shit without a mask on it's all going right into my brain um I'm like whoever knows whatever spray toxic spray paint fumes does to your brain and there's no fresh air coming in and I remember Sean Parker just bronze just bronze skin like 200 haircut custom suit and I go who are you man and he was doing what my mom was doing I was he was just fucking doing push-ups and like and I was like this skinny little nerd like just he's like handsome and I go oh this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bit she used to fucking and he's like oh we're gonna get that we're going to fucking raise some money.

1:08:59Like he was, and I go, holy fuck, this guy is so sick, you know? And he transformed his physical appearance because he was about to go into like serious fundraising. And that's when I met the PayPal guy and Peter Thiel. And like, just, I was like, this guy's fucking, you know, like people give all the credit to Mark, but I'm like, Sean, guy was, he was an artist in, you know, and also like out of control, which like that attracted each other and then he was there when they got when he got fired and all that stuff but I remember like the impact that had on me like just wow like you heard you've heard the fake it till you make it right it's like I I know I'm not the best artist in the world but my mom thinks so but Sean Parker like other people think so and I'm but I'm like but that's whatever they're just kissing my ass or whatever and then there can be a switch and I think it's like sick and tired of being sick and tired or enough is enough like I just can't take it anymore it's like well I can't live like this anymore I feel like I'm trapped I feel like and so then it's like oh you can't travel you need money for that well I'm gonna hitchhike then I'm gonna hop on a freight train I saw the entire world with nothing no money like well it must be nice to be rich I go I'm rich now I've had nothing my whole life and I just had to fucking fight for it and like what I recommended like a lot of it was illegal I spent a lot of time in jail but also jail didn't hurt me I lived and I spent some time there I got to learn who I am and and so it's just to piece out the skills you learn for what's creativity what's business what aided me and helped me at this time in my life which no longer aids me now and how to like, because the other thing I learned from my mom is it just adapts.

1:11:00Oh, our business just burned down in the LA riots. And instead of like sitting there, it was like, okay, now we're doing this. Now we're doing this. Now we're doing this. And I'm like, I remember getting a job in Beverly Hills right after high school. I was 18, 1994. and it was at this weird comic book like a high-end comic book store called comics top hits i'm not a comic book guy i love comics and i remember i begged the guy for a job i'm like please please and he's like all right fine the customer seemed because i would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways and i remember one day stan lee showed up and i'm like fuck stan lee like my hero you know and he and he sat there and um people were bringing him dark wing duck batman archie like all the things he he didn't work on hey marvel fans and he just signed everything and i'm like i was like the guy managing the line that day and i'm looking at his hair plugs and i go you fucking fuck like you didn't fucking invent batman you're you know and at the end of the day i built up enough confidence to you know as everyone left and we're packing up i'm like stan dude you didn't invent batman why the fuck you signed that guy's book and he's like did you see their faces did you see like they were so happy like why would i why would i get in the way of their happiness and i'm like holy shit dude it's like yeah don't correct people and i thought about that like everywhere where I go in the world and there's like, Qing Chong, China, this, I, I remember being in Africa and these kids were just chasing us everywhere, going, Qing Chong, and our translator was a French-Vietnamese guy, and he was like, Dave's Korean, I'm Vietnamese, and it's like, you're just, they don't give a shit, dude.

1:12:48They don't give a fuck, and I remember just the things I'm talking about is like watching Sean Parker's Shapeshift, watching my mom's Shapeshift, watching um act as if you belong act as if you have a seat at the table it's like oh the fucking it's like i know that's part of being artists is being like shy nerdy oh self-conscious it's like just pretend like you're the best artist in the world like you just show up and you're like put like this is the journey from their head to heart you're this is a i i like when you talk because you you make sense but there's that and that's why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest fucking idiots i've met because they try to apply logic to everything and you're applying logic to spiritual problems you're applying logic to emotional problems and it's like how's that working out for you it's not it's not you're never gonna out think a feeling you're never gonna outsmart a feeling like you're like wait the these people are like why who would do that Why would you do that?

1:13:50And I'm like, because it's not logical. It's an emotional thing. It's a mentally ill, whatever it is. It's not logic-based. It's emotion-based. It's mentally ill-based. It's spiritual-based. Like, you can't fuck with people's religion or what they have faith in and all this stuff. So I'm watching. I remember going, Stefan correcting the black kids that he's Vietnamese is making them feel stupid and they're getting angrier. The kids that think I'm Bruce Lee and I just confirmed that I'm Bruce Lee are getting happy, right? It's like people are dumb out there. That's fine. I don't care. I'm dumb.

1:14:28I'm stupid. It's like when someone corrects me, it makes me feel shame and dumber. But then if no one corrects me, it's like then it's my own shit to figure that out or not, right? So watching these people, like very successful people in my life, my mom, she's like unstoppable, right? anything the world throws at her she just goes okay I guess we're doing this now like she doesn't hang on she's like hang on tightly let go lightly right it's just like okay we were real estate people now we're doing Herbalife oh the that happened Mark Hughes died okay now we're doing this like she just goes like that like like adapts to any situation and like right now I get a call a week from all artists creative types that they're it's our you know and we don't have to have an AI talk.

1:15:16I don't, I would rather not have an AI talk, but it's Armageddon, right? Everyone's like, I spent my life doing sound engineering and now it's gone. Just like the guy who would do the like hand letter this and then Photoshop, boom, your job's gone. The Carl Zeiss lens go on the iPhone and now photographer, like it's just, it's gone. Like you could sit there and start complaining or you could just keep adapting. And so I think true creativity, you can't contain. If you're open and you're ready to get naked and you're ready to, you know, people are like, oh, do you have to suffer to be a great artist?

1:15:47Absolutely. But you've already suffered enough. It's already done. Like whatever happened to you in your childhood, that's enough fuel for the rest of it. You don't have to continually. But I see myself and others at times like I hopefully am better now. But I see people continually putting themselves in this situation to like suffer more and more and more. And I just remember the shame of my, like, it's just these things. They're, you know, decades ago, but they're still, like, my dad just, like, throwing me across. Like, we left another country so you could be a criminal event? Like, just, he was like, I'll just kill us all now.

1:16:29We were in the car leaving the police station. He's like, I'm going to crash the car. And I was like, I was in the back, like kind of disassociating, numb, crying, like feeling mixed emotions. Going from like victim to sorry to like, well, fuck you then. And, you know, everything in between. And then just going, I accept now. Oops. I accept. Sorry. Am I close enough to the microphone? You're good. Am I close to the microphone?

1:16:59just going i i'm i'm gonna choose to believe what my mom believes in me i'm the greatest artist on the planet i was in my 20s i was like fuck it like going into galleries looking at comic books and um can i tell you one quick fuck you sean parker story so at at the at the time i was doing Facebook, like things were happening. Like I had a vice show selling my jail art, which gave me a little bit of cash. I was starting to work for Heidi Fleiss to do a erotic mural for her sex shop in Hollywood. And I had just gotten a job to do Jay-Z, Linkin Park's mashup album cover. And it's like, I needed the money and I need, and it was just like, it things, I was like, it's starting to happen.

1:17:46Like things are, you know, and, and this is while I was doing the Facebook thing so they hadn't blown up yet you know and uh they gave me the job and I'm like the biggest rock band in the world and the biggest rapper in the world are doing an album together and they want me little old me to do the I felt so I mean they fucking butchered the art the I gave them the art and they just made it look shitty they put a shitty font on it they put a like they did fake graffiti spray I was like what the fuck did you whatever anyways that's a whole other thing but um I you know I'm like cool like what's that gonna pay like you know like and they're like two grand I'm like wait you know it's like this one day I'm gonna make it and my name's gonna be in lights and and I and I knew other artists so like uh Mir did uh the Limp Biscuit cover Shepard Fairey did so I I knew them well enough where I was like hey guys am I getting fucked right now or and they're like no that's typical i go that's what they pay artists for i mean because back in the day when i was doing art paintings whatever galleries uh or illustrations that was the range 200 to like 2 000 at the most if you're doing like a cover or something but i'm like an album cover for and they're like no that's what they pay and i was like damn dude I thought this was this is big time you know and so I negotiated for that at the same time I'm working at Facebook and I drew this crazy cover and they're like yeah that's for the rights for the album cover right so then I don't know the album comes out and then they use the art everywhere they use it on billboards like friends reading comic books and it's like oh they did a full page ad and I go like for illustration that's a separate fee right it's like here's the rights to use on the album cover.

1:19:39Here's for advertising, right? And so I'm talking to, I don't know anything, right? I'm a fucking horrible street artist. Oh, I call myself a street artist. Delete that from the microphone. Sorry. So I'm, you know, and you could like bleep the names or whatever because I clearly remember. So I call Warner Brothers and I go, hey, can I talk to whoever's in legal or whatever? and I go yeah I talked to my friends who are also artists that are more successful and they said there's a separate fee I should be getting for billboards you know bus bench usage magazine editorial you know you know magazines used to be big you know tower records virgin register and I remember the arrogance on this guy chip he was like their head legal he doesn't work there anymore and he's like and I I remember the way he talked to me felt like my child like just made me feels he's like you're some shitty graffiti like who the fuck are you you know like why am i wasting my time talking to you and i go well and he started like just hitting me with legalese and i go hey i'm raising my hand right now you can't say i'm raising my hand saying i don't understand what you're saying can you please talk to me and like can you dumb dumb down like you're trying you're like trying to beat me up with words right now i'm just saying i you know it should be an additional 10 grand, 15 grand for what you guys did.

1:21:05I'll be happy with another five. You know, just like trying to talk. And he's like, I don't know who the fuck you think you are. And it was like very condescending. And I remember the arrogance of, I was like, I could be recording this call. You know, but he was just, and I was like, for a guy named Chip, that's such a weird, you know, you could come at us with lawyers. You could, it's like, and you may be even right. But guess what? You're fucking with Warner. like you'll never win like you will never get another dime out of us i'm like holy fuck that what a fucking and like i said like if you're gonna be like people are like oh i love painting then just paint like oh i want to be it's like you know how fucking hard it is to make money as a creator it's like you gotta fight you gotta get a thick skin and you better be ready to like i had to threaten nike with blowing up their entire parking lot before they paid me i was like you asked me for these drawings I did them I delivered them on time and you're giving me the checks in the mail and I called like Wieden and Kent you know whatever Oregon and I was like I live in LA it's going to take me this many hours to drive and I'm going to I don't know which car is yours I'm going to blow up every car check was in the mail the next day I'm like why did I have to do that why did I have to turn into my mom to get the but most artists go and then they just get fucked over right so that's part of being an artist is getting fucked over not getting paid what you deserve blah blah blah so I'm like obviously sensitive and painting like in a bad mood and Sean's like what dude what's up Dave why are you and I told him what I just told you and he's like you know and Facebook has like big money behind it now it's growing he's like oh we got a multi-million dollar deal with Warner Brothers tomorrow in the meeting and I was like he goes check this out so he has the meeting with Warner Brothers and they're like full like you know everyone's at the long table and they're like oh we want to advertise with facebook and this is the new this is the new world and they're like okay cool and it's like you know it's like millions of dollars or whatever hundreds of thousands of dollars and he's like yeah but that guy chip fucked with my friend dave cho so we're not doing shit with you guys and he just and i was like this guy's my dog forever like like what how like like just does no fucks given right i was like i cried i gave him a hug i was like Like, don't fuck with me.

1:23:26Don't fuck with me. Like, it felt so good. It felt so fucking good. I was like, and then I found out he got fired and all that shit. It's like, I was like, yes, sometimes the little guy wins, you know? Like, it felt so good. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

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1:25:04It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com slash Huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250 ,000 people. But they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com slash Huberman to get early access to function. So I got all the typical shame and all that. And to be fair, if you're my dad and you fucking escaped a war and famine to raise your family in America and you see your kid stealing paint at Home Depot to graffiti dicks on walls, like you're going to, you're not going to.

1:25:46So I give him that, you know. but I just, I was, I felt, I didn't know where I belonged. You know, I'm like, I couldn't process, maybe I have dyslexia. I was in school and it just, I couldn't, none of the information, I was like, this is so hard. Like people, like I would try really hard to get a C, right? Where other people were like, oh, okay, you know, X. I was like, why is there an X in math? And they were like, Dave, and they dumb it down and dumb it down. I'm like, I'm retarded. I think I need to go to that class. Like, I'm, like, I felt, like, I felt, because both of my brothers have, like, really high IQs.

1:26:25And I'm like, I'm stupid. Like, I, you know, so I felt really small in that area. And I made up the story, like, I suck at sports. I go, so this is it. This is all I'll ever be good at. So, and now I'm going to fully buy in to what my mom's saying. And because I grew up with the Asian work ethic, like, I'm like, it's not a fit. I am good. I, it wasn't like I am going to be the best. I was like, I just adopted. I am the best artist in the world. And to that power of thought, like I sat down and I'd go to music. I studied everything. I studied comic book art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art. Why does this?

1:27:04I just got into the business side of art, the creativity, fucking loose watercolors, like tiny detailed pen draw like everything and i was like and i was like overcome i'm like i'm gonna be good at all of it oil painting like there so people go what what kind of artist i'm i'm an artist everything when i talk when i make music like i am going from i'm a piece of shit i suck to like like you know not healthy but you know it's like i am art god you know like and so I was like in my 20s just like brainwashed, like waking up and then like, that's not how I naturally woke up. I woke up like, oh fuck, you know, and I'd wake up and I'd have to put that on like, you're the greatest, you know, like, um, hypnotizing myself.

1:27:50You're the best, you're the fucking best. You're the greatest. Were you doing any like reading books? Cause at the time when you and I are basically the same age, um, back then it wasn't a lot about like neuroscience science and this and that and like actualization. It was all kind of, you know, hidden away. But there was this, there were, you know, there was like the Tony Robbins type stuff. And there was this idea and infomercials and stuff that like, that you could program your mind. Sounded like you just basically took all that on without any of that. Yeah, I didn't read any of that stuff.

1:28:23I stole lots of books and I would read a lot of pornography. I guess this kind of can I could uh fit my Pee Wee Herman story if we're talking about publishing it's hard to talk about this because kids ask me all the time like how'd you make it in art and like nothing I did applies to today you know it's like I went to Kinko's I would have to spend my money or figure out how to do that copy thing that trick to make more copy because color copies are 99 cents it's like who has so I'd have to pick which one of my paintings were the best make these like mini color copy packets so that's ten dollars and then i would go to the newsstand and write the address like rolling stone like all the magazines that had prestige and like cf pain kent williams baron story like all these amazing illustrators that would work for a time magazine rolling stone playboy like they would all use so i would open the the front page where it had the heading of art direct and i would write write it down and the newsstand guys like i sound like a boomer right now like you know it's like who the fuck like there's kids listening right now this magazine what's that you know but that's what i had to do and i would be like which magazine do i want to send this ten dollar packet that i just and then i have to mail it to and hopefully like they get that letter and not some other department you know and then you just rejection letter after you know like sorry sorry sorry and um so I'm I'm I'm sitting down and I'm I'm like I'm ingesting all this and I have the I have the fire and I'm like sitting down I go that like what why is that drawing successful why do you know and of course there's tons of insider trading and corruption in the art world but I didn't know that at the time right it's like oh that guy's dad owns fucking water like that guy you know so I would just sit there and I would be like that guy drew this much I'm gonna draw 10 like that guy did this and I'm gonna draw you know and I and I just some of my paintings all my paintings back then had like at least seven layers if not more just layering and layering and dance and it was me it's like a musician that's like I have to like Like I saw a thing with Rick Rubin and Flea doing Give It Away Now.

1:30:41And he was just like, you know what he can do. But he was like, just play less. And back then it wasn't. It was like I need to show everyone what I'm capable of, which is I can draw better than you. I can paint. I have to show you that. Now I don't care. But back then it was. And it isn't that. Art is not who can put the most lines down. or, you know, and so I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to like, and it was just, everyone has their own path, but I remember year 2000, I'm doing graffiti, I'm getting some gigs to do murals, you know, it's just slowly starting, and someone contacted me at Marvel Comics, and I was like, man, I didn't even try, and like, this is, this is it, this is my dream, and they were, we want you to draw the X-Men, but like a cool, cool X-Men.

1:31:32I'm like, fuck, I didn't even have to go to portfolio day. I didn't have to, you know, and I go, oh, I knew if I just kept putting my shit out there, you know, but I'm, you know, I'm what, 23 at the time, you know, and I start drawing it, and I guess they fired me, or they didn't fire me. They just decided to use a different artist, but they never told me, so I'm still drawing it, and I'm, you know, I'm a passive-aggressive, angry kid already and I didn't email some people had emails but a lot like a lot of artists hadn't this is the beginning of the internet like people weren't using it the way they do now and I remember it was like the first message board where my friends were like hey Dave you got fired off the x-men book and I go what how did you know and they go you don't use the internet I go what is that and they showed us and I felt shame again I was like oh my god like I was so excited to like there's little things in my head like if I do a comic book that means I made it and I wrote the most scathing homophobic racist like just I was mad I thought it was funny I was 23 at the time and it was like 10 pages long but I didn't know the editor of Marvel it's probably not even him it was just and I didn't know how to get it to him so I just went to Marvel's website and I just sent it to every single person that works at Marvel, like copy, paste.

1:32:55And the next day was my first experience in the year, you know, Y2K in 1999, 2000 of going viral. They're like, every artist I look up to, every writer I look up to in comics was like, we don't know who the fuck this kid is, but he just committed career suicide. And then once again, shame. And so like, if I go back to all my shame stories, I go, what's the through line? and we should have made the secret word shame, but, um, oh, I'm a shame chaser. Like I get high off shame. Like what's my drug? Oh, workaholism. It's like my, my drug that I've chased my whole life is shame and anger, like fucking powerful drug, you know?

1:33:34And so I couldn't believe it. I was like, I'm never going to get to draw the Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine. And I have, and I have at this point, and I went through the back door, which I always do. It's true, true vandal but i just remember going holy fuck this is the worst day of my life like people that i look up to they're like they were there was like a whole thing of like i don't know who this dave cho i've never heard of him but he's a horrible human being listen you know and i was like but there was context like you should have heard how i saw heard it in my head like i was you know and they're like oh it looks different and i was like holy fuck and that was my first experience of like of just feeling like me following a pattern of trying to replicate hatred towards me like like if it's but not knowing it I'm just like oh I don't know what the fuck I'm doing and and like some ignorance some playing dumb some like repeating patterns like a monkey without knowing and and and so I had a friend in comics at the time because I was Like, I don't, I was just making art.

1:34:39I was going out doing graffiti every fucking night, just doing that OCD, playing music in my head and just tagging up everything. Like, the kind of graffiti you're not supposed to do. People's cars, houses. Like, I wanted someone to kill me. Like, I didn't care. Like, I wanted someone to be like, dude, I worked hard for that car and you just ruined it. And in my head, I'm like, but I'm a famous artist, which I wasn't. I'm 23. And they're like, I just made your car more valuable. That's how I'm thinking. But I was out of my mind. You probably did make their car more valuable in retrospect. Can I ask you a question about the shame?

1:35:12Absolutely. I have a friend. He's an addiction trauma counselor guy, amazing guy. He's been on this podcast. His name is Ryan Suave. He has a gift for helping people understand trauma and addiction and this kind of thing. We haven't talked a lot about addiction yet today. But you said you got addicted to the shame. And do you think, I mean, who knows here, I'm using my intellectual brain, but do you think that the, that these oscillations of like your, your mindset, like I'm a, I'm a great artist, I'm the greatest artist sets it up. So the shame is that much deeper. Like it's like loading a spring or, uh, because he told me once Ryan once told me he was worked with addicts, heroin addicts, drug addicts of all kinds of sex addiction, everything.

1:36:00And he just said, you know, he goes, gambling addiction is the worst because the next time really could change it all. And he said, but there's something really interesting that happens to gambling addicts. He goes, eventually they get tired of winning and they get addicted to losing. Happens really quick. So I have my own feelings about this subject. I'm a severe gambling addict. like um i told you i'm going to time jump so i'm at the you know i'm at that point but i'll jump to current which is which is a very shameful thing for me to admit or talk about but you know i'm here so i'll just go there um shame is is so powerful because at this point i've been to all the 12-step meetings.

1:36:56I've been to Debtors Anonymous, Business Owners, Dentist Debtors Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, Workaholics, you know, Sex and Love Addicts, Sex Addicts, Gambling, like every single, and so what's the through line? Every single one is gambling. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. Your life could be over in your you know if you overeat and you're diabetic it's just every fucking addiction is so it's addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to and your your scientist friend nailed it it's as i explore my feelings you know because the the people what are you running from dave i'm like i'm fucking running from myself dude i don't want to look in the mirror i don't want to see myself i i hate myself so i'm just running so as long as i'm like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just, just, just hopping on a train, like, like literal running, like literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second.

1:38:01Like, what are you doing, Dave? I'm playing drums in a band. I'm fucking, you know, at a casino. I'm traveling, doing the news for Vice. I'm painting at this, like, I can't, I can't sit still. Cause that means I have to sit with myself and I can't do that. I can't do that.

1:38:21I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now.

1:38:30So you know what feels good? Winning a lot of money. Not working for it and sitting down at a casino and them knowing who you are and upping the limits and you literally making enough money off Baccarat or Blackjack what people don't make in a lifetime. That's a fucking, that's an insane feeling. How many shits do you think I took today before I came here? Rob, how many? Two. Two. One big one and one little one. Like, scientists don't know what causes IBS. I do. It's stress. when I was gambling, when I was at the height of any of my addictions, seven shits a day at least. Just like, okay, like just like, and you would never see it on my face, or maybe you would, but I felt like I could gamble with a fortune in front of me and lose it and win it and like nothing, nothing.

1:39:37Like I was, you know, disassociated, dead inside, whatever you want to say. I didn't feel anymore, right? Like the highs were so high. I had already been chased by the cops. I'd already been beaten the shit out of. I've already been molested before. I already, whatever you could do to me, you've already done to me and I'm still here. What can you do to me that I, like I'm my worst enemy. Like I beat myself up, right? When the gambling stopped, when I got into recovery, when I, like I take one shit a day now. When this fucking asshole asked me to do the podcast, i start stressing i've taken what was that like a few weeks ago it's it oh shit dude i just took three shit it started again because i don't have stress in my life anymore or like i have whatever normal family stress but i don't have oh you're gonna say something on some guy's show and then your life's gonna be ruined again you know like that's i've done that so many times it's like so i'm like fuck i just woke up i just already took a shit why do i take another one i'm like oh, the IBS is coming back because there's a part of me that's like, I hope I say something horrible today because then I could feel that again.

1:40:48And so what people, when they're listening to this, and I don't know if I'm making, when I talk, sometimes I make sense to myself and sometimes I don't. But if you're an addict, it will make sense to you. If you're, if like everyone listening to this is either an addict or, or someone in their life is like their family member or their friend. But at this point with social media and their phones, everyone's an addict, right you can't you can't stop it's just impossible you you'll never you will never find anything more addictive than a phone right so in the time that like i haven't been in an actual casino in 10 years i've banned from all these casinos the whole world became a casino you can't go anywhere without gambling a fucking lottery you can go on your phone you could bet on you know anything right so

1:41:35So at first in every addiction, you want to win. Oh, fuck that. You know, I can't, I can relate to drugs and alcohol, even though I don't do that. But like, that must feel good to like get a little drunk and then be the funniest guy at the party or. So eating the most delicious foods that I ever ate that I never thought I would eat in my life. And then, okay, that's good. Your body feels good. Why do you need to eat until you're puking and you become like binging and purging? Like what? Because what you don't understand because you're applying logic to it is I want to fucking hurt. I want the like winning a million dollars feels fucking great.

1:42:17Losing$10 million feels even better. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Like getting married feels awesome. I mean, I'm just making shit up, but like, put like, greatest day of my life, right? Like, greatest day of my life. And I could get dark. I'll try not to use dark examples. But when something awesome, marriage, having a child, winning a lot of money, doing drugs and having one of the best days of your life, like, just when it's on the good side, it feels, that's why you do it. Heroin fucking feels good. I've never done it, but the description of it is like, that sounds awesome. Why would you not do it again?

1:42:59But then when you're fucking scratching your skin and sucking dick for a fucking crack, like, that's another high where you're at the bottom. And that's a repetition of the pattern of whatever your childhood was. And so I don't fucking know Andrew besides his online persona, right? Like, this is our first time meeting in person. Like, I, this is not me being a know-it-all. Like, humans are not that difficult to understand. We're very simple.

1:43:32Like, I called him immature a little bit before, not to be insulting. It's just, like, part of me is, like, this is me being a hater. Like, I love everybody, but I'm just, like, what fucking adult gets tattoos? Like, what kind of fucking adult gets? And I know you got fucking tattoos. And I'm like, who fucking just like throws their shit away to become a skater? And then, like, are you okay with me asking you questions? Sure. Were you sexually abused? Were you? No. No, I was, I mean, I knew, I had friends that were, I lucked out. I had one guy come at me that, I worked at a skateboard shop in Palo Alto.

1:44:10Maybe you saw Palo Alto Toy and Sport. It was like down on Waverly Street. Guy that worked there did that. I responded differently. I flipped the desk over on him. I made him apologize to me in front of everybody. And my biggest fear at that point was my mom, even though we had our attention. My mom's from New Jersey. She's old school. She knew something happened. And my fear was that if I told her that she would actually kill him. Oh. Like actually kill him. Like, and, you know, because despite, you know, whatever challenges she and I have had over the year. Yeah. She like that maternal aggression, that protectiveness.

1:44:48Yeah. She would have killed him. So I remember being like not worried about me, worried that she was going to kill him. You know, and then, but no, I lucked out there. I perceive you as a brilliant man. And this is me gathering data and facts in my life. Not, I don't know what the, but you know, you know, very smart. I know geniuses, you know, geniuses. the smarter the person the more intellectual they are the more on the spectrum they are the greater the trauma they experience because whether that was always in them and the trauma unlocked it or you learn that as mental jujitsu to like these people i know in my life that are just brilliant like they're just they can comprehend things that most people can they could create their childhood was so fucking unsafe abandonment you know and usually that's what i asked you about it's usually sexual trauma because that's that has carries the most shame that they're like oh it's small i can defend myself that unless i become like like a jujitsu master or fighter how can i protect myself and it's with this so then something gets unlocked here and they become the smartest person in the room and they can just destroy you verbally they They can destroy you in a courtroom.

1:46:06They can just, they can just, and, and, and so, yeah, to answer the, you become a shame chaser. You get high off shame. And it's like, it's even shameful to admit out loud. And so, like, I could sit here and like, if I'm being present with current, with up to date, like, I have a great life. Like, I'm telling you a lot of stories from the past, feelings that I felt in the past. and I have, you know, I tell on myself all the time. When old patterns come up, I, you know, I have a therapist. I got a men's group. I got friends who love me. I raise my hand. I go, I need help, which I never did before.

1:46:44I grew up with shut the fuck up and figure it out. That's my whole childhood was a question mark. Where are we going? What are we doing? Nothing was explained to me. And so there was a lot of violent, a lot of abandonment. It's just like, and so I just, everything, and that's probably why I'm really curious and ask a lot of questions. Because I didn't know what was happening. And my parents were just like working all the time. They're like, I don't know, stay at this house or this. And I was just like, who are these people? Like, what's happening? What's, why is this guy baptizing me for the 10th?

1:47:14You know, like, why am I getting on a plane? It was like, it was just like, just shut up. Just go along to get along. And so part of my story is if I'm a nice boy, if I'm a nice Asian boy and I do, then the world shits on me. Then everything horrible. The second I fucking speak up, scream, get the fuck off, like just do graffiti, break the law, then I get to do the Linkin Park album cover. Then I get Sean Parker. It's like, and you know, I talked to all the jackass guys about this. it's like you're rewarded for bad behavior you get to be the president you get to you know like the more act and it's so in one way okay that's for career right but like what about it just runs hell on your personal life and that's why when i when i'm in my addiction and i'm chasing shame i drag everyone who loves me down with them so i go i i need to and i don't need my wife or anyone to be my mom like i'm like i i'll i'll handle it that's how i grow myself up and it doesn't need to be like like i said brilliance is found in milpitas and palo alto and gilroy brilliance is found in the mundane sitting in the waiting room brilliance is found in these like quiet moments and so it's like i don't need to go to rehab and have like this fucking movie role kind of it's just like it's a phone call it's like let me do this and so um the feelings the the chemistry that it's like when when you lose all the money you've ever made in your life in a coin flip and you're just sitting there like no worries um hopefully i didn't get any on the microphone

1:49:03what's that line from that 80s movie it's not a party till something's broken I always like that line because it excuses it immediately some breaks folks you just say yeah it's not a party till something's broke in this case it was my soul you know so so I was very reckless with with my heart I treated myself very poorly I didn't care for I didn't care what happened to me and so as I jump from addiction to addiction it's like well which is the one I can hide in plain sight the one that you're in right now workaholism as long as you work all the time as long as you're providing people like as long as you're helping people and being of service then that's good right but what is being neglected in that this like I mean I don't tell this to everyone but like someone in your situation that you know you have life changes coming up and I already know your answer but I would I would ask why not take one year off like why it's like well I got my this and I'm an important Stanford guy and I got yeah but that will like like you only got one life and you know there's something about it that feels like when I'm in my workaholism like that's the one where I get in this society a pat on the back good good job dave and um you know the the sean parker story with the with the warner brothers that was a win i was like fuck yeah you know um but it was it was so much

1:50:42can i tell my peewee hermit story there's some shame in that i'll i'll bring it around

1:50:50i'm i i just don't i'm you know part of my character defects is entitlement and impatience like i just once i accepted what my mom is saying true i am the greatest artist in the world according to jane cho and now i'm gonna start you know not at first but like i'll start to believe that too because you gotta it's it's so scary doing graffiti you know not in a crew not in a gang to just go out and it's like it's something so comforting to draw in a tiny sketchbook and no one's gonna see it right you fuck up whatever but to draw something big on a wall and everyone going down the 101 freeways like thousands of people will see it before eight o 'clock like that sucks that guy has no can control that guy and you're just like you're you're naked you're like this is what's inside me and i did it 40 feet long and here it is and they're like it sucks shame i'm chasing shame like it's like what would it feel like if everyone's like dude that's the fucking masterpiece not as cool not as cool so i i'm just i'm doing the thing i'm sending my art out and uh labrea used to have a lot of galleries and i and i and in my head i thought my art was better than every artist that was in those i would be like and i'd go down the street and i'm like oh they show that i would keep a record of what kind of art they show that i'd skate back to my house and paint like that style but better in my mind better and then i make a new portfolio and i'd go down like and they're like who the fuck like like it's like a like you have to be shown first before they'll even take and i go but you know so just anger more frustration coming out sideways coming out doing more graffiti shoplifting food to like you know so then i finally get to la brea in Melrose where there was a ice cream shop called Double Rainbow and there's this wonderful lady named Candice there and I was saying how I'm talking now first like out loud and my art's just right here and she's like let me see and I show it to her and she's like this is amazing I go I fucking know dude I'm the best and she's like all right shut the fuck out all right she's like put it up on the wall and then my ego goes in a fucking ice cream shop and I go well I guess no one else is offering okay so it was like not this it wasn't like minimalist it was floor to ceiling hundreds of paintings some that i spent months on like this is singular just i'm the best and i need to show you it wasn't like tasteful like here's one painting and let that breathe and it was just like here's you know and people are coming in there buying like mint chocolate chip going that's pretty cool you know and so every day i would get a call love your art want to buy it i'm like fuck yeah here we go like two dollars i'm like you know how long i spent on that art and you know and i just was like 50 bucks so you know i'm 23 this is like early 2000s i'm like that's that's less than the art supplies that i stole to be fair but still i'm like can you cover the cost of materials and they're like yeah that's good but you know can you just like haggling like five ten i'm like that's what a fucking print or sticker costs like this is original painting you know and i remember i got a call one day and uh it's this these these things that i keep the stories that i keep editing in my mind to make me the hero you know and the guy's like i'll trade you a car for like that giant painting the one that i spent months on and of course it's like 1972 Plymouth Fury no brakes like cracked wind you know just a complete fucking beater like piece of shit but then the story in my head that I go around telling you know part of my PR marketing is like I traded my art for a car for an you know oh yeah and like you don't need to know the details of the car you know and the guy in the you know recycler was trying to sell it for like two three hundred dollars you know he's like just get this shit off my lawn you know and i remember this is how i drove it i would drive it and there was no brakes so i had to there was like fuel and i had to pump it like a block before or and then i would always hit the car like ding like that's what and the guy would say hey what the fuck and i'd be like sorry and i had no money to fix it but i was just in my head i i did it i fucking i did it i you know like small victories little victories and then my friends like uh like in like I knew all like the indie zine like make your own fucking punk rock like and I would just get rejection letter after just just the continuation of you're not enough your art's not that good you suck just and then maybe they wouldn't say that but that's how I took every you know not at this time not for us rejection letter from playboy from rolling stone and and i just remember one of my friends he just always had like nice sketchbooks and i go what were you getting that money like you do you're a full-time artist and he was like a dirty punk rock guy and he's like you know the skin rags pay just as much it's like they have none of the prestige and like you know i went to the tower records warehouse once where uh they distributed a calendar i made and it's like here's here's like this whole table is the warehouse this is like you know sports illustrated rolling stone this and all of this is porn right so you know you don't want to brag about that but that's just they're like they pay literally the same amount as rolling stone but it's not rolling stone so i go okay i guess i'm doing that so then i go to the part of the magazine stand where you know there's a curtain and i go back and i start you know butthole fever just start writing down the art director's name.

1:56:49And that was the thing is like, I cared. I cared so much about it was important to me. It saved me art saved me. So it didn't matter if I was doing a logo for Nike or Toyota or like, you know, I just was like, this is you're still looking at me, even though if I'm doing a corporate job, like I'm, I'm in there, and I need you to see me. And I am even though if I hate the job, and you're not even paying me, I'm still going to do my best no matter what. Like it's, I have pride in my work, you know, and I get that from my parents also. And I love that. I'll go to restaurants where I don't even like the food because I know the waiter is like running to bring me water.

1:57:28And he cares. Like anytime, that's the secret ingredient to anything. Anytime I feel like the person cares, it just, it's such a warm feeling, you know. And I cared. And I still do. I care a lot. Like, I sit here, I don't give a fuck. I do. I care maybe too much. So I write the number for, you know, I try the legit ones first, Penthouse and Playboy. And they're like, nope, nope. I'm like, I guess I go to a Hustler and Buttman and, you know, Asian Fever. And I get a call from Buttman, you know. They're like, these butthole paintings you did, they're just, they're so good. And I'm like, I worked really hard on it.

1:58:11You know, it's not like what I want to be doing, but, and they're like, can you, can you come in? And it's just true to their title. That's all it is. It's just all anal. There's no stories about anal. There's page after page. And they go, can you do like this? But like every week I'm like, what do you need? They're like, you know, Superman fucking Lois Lane, anal, Spider-Man, you know, midgets, like whatever. like just all anal and I go I can do that I would I would love to do that and like we pay you know a couple hundred bucks I was like and I took it serious it wasn't like a it was like this is my and a lot of actually famous artists would do that but under fake names and they didn't want to be associated their real art with that I was like and so I did I did all this art for uh Buttman once again if you want to cut out any names I remember everyone's name it was art director was Heidi.

1:59:10She was so sweet. She's like, it's just like, I was only used to my mom saying she likes my art. So anytime someone not in my family said they liked it, it was, oh, it's not just my mom. Like other people like it, you know, but in a, also this massive narcissist, like I'm the best. And like, no, I'm not that good, you know, but like, it's like both, you know? And, um, I don't know why this always kept happening, but all these places I always worked at, they would always go you got such funny stories like do you got any you know and i was like i think i'd been with one girl they're like you have any like butthole stories and and i and i had been trained by you know black belt in lying my mom you know she's like yeah of course like i don't even it was so easy for me they're like oh because these these depictions of anal sex are so they're so graphic and fantastic and every time you come in you have some weird story like do you know any women in your life that have experiences like this and I go oh yeah like super racist against Asians I go oh yeah like uh Susie Suzuki like just making up fake names they're like you know someone named Susie Suzuki I go oh yeah yeah she goes do you think she would write about her experiences and I'm like how dumb is this lady like I don't fucking know anyone named like what the fuck and she goes it's 40 bucks a story and I'm like cool like they're paying me 150 200 bucks for this i'll so i go home and i would just write the most ridiculous hi don't speak english you know this is the voice i hear in my head i come to america need a job and just writing like every like ridiculous male fantasy like and then he put in the wrong hole and pornography i became a pornographer like i'm not it's not like the proudest moment of my life but i'm like oh god God, you know, if God's looking down on me, probably, you know, but once again, shame.

2:01:08I'm cool with it. I've made myself at home. Like most people, they change their name. But I was like, this is what I do. I'm a fucking, you know. So here we go again, my fucking poor parents, you know. So I'm living at home, right? So I can't hide. I could have done a better job hiding the graffiti. I didn't. They see the spray paint. They see the fucking paint on all my clothes. Was it good? Were you happy with the graffiti? no i hated it okay i just uh it's i have so much respect for that like it's it's everything it's physicality you're you're climbing you're you're an engine it's like fucking navy seal like it's crazy like you need to do a detail of a nose while you're balancing on barbed wire i mean it's yeah those kids are crazy it's insane i'm like fuck dude these people if they had a little bit the guidance they could have been like navy seals green berets whatever um so my dad of course find you know my once again like and then i sit here now as i tell the story and it's coming why didn't i hide it better oh like maybe i wanted to get caught you know my dad fucking throws he's like sexy sexy you know just like once again it's like this like think about my dad it's like his friends are like going you know his friends kids are like getting the highest sat scores they're getting accepted into stanford and and they're like my son has hair covering his eyes he you know i think i was starting to get into like shitty uh 80s like warrant and winger and cherry you know like that kind of like i listen to everything um and i just shame i like literally like not feeling but like having another human your father tell you i'm so embarrassed of my son i'm so embarrassed like like anger tears like just breaking like why why why did i come to this country why did you know just like and i i like i just it's like now i could feel more when i told but like before i just like like i just pretended like it was happening to someone else you know i just disassociated.

2:03:21I'm like, whatever, bro. Like, but it wasn't whatever. It was like, my dad disappointed in me. My mom disappointed in me. And I'm like, fuck, man, it's not really working out for me. Like just rejection after rejection. And I just. I remember the shipping. It was in the Larry Flint building, Wilshire and La Cienega. and I was like, fuck, I live like a, like I could skate there. Like I'd rather, and I was scared to like send, oh, so this is what happened. So I got busted. The lady, I don't know if she was a lesbian or something. She's like, oh, like I need to meet Susie Suzuki. It wasn't Suzuki.

2:03:59It was a name like that. It was like Trisha Toyota or something. And I go, Heidi, are you serious right now? It's like, like there's, that's, I wrote that story. That story's ridiculous. Like in my head, I'm like, it's so obvious a guy wrote that, you know? And she's like, hey, we might be Buttman magazine, but we print the truth. And I was like, what the fuck? You're telling me the penthouse letters are real? Like, shut the fuck up. And she's like, she's like, took all my art, threw it at me. It's like, you will never be publishing Buttman anymore. Like, she just, you're done here. And I was like, I spent a long time on those paintings.

2:04:35Like, I, all the folds of the butthole. And like, I, like, I really tried hard. like you know it's like rejection reject like i i had gotten so used to my parents being disappointed in me gallery art like it was just it was like cool i don't all right didn't feel i mean i'm sure it didn't feel good but i had figured out a way to internalize it and just all right and then and then do my mom's delusional thing but but i'm still the best even though the world's telling me like you're you're a loser and i go okay who's the uh art director at hustler wt nelson okay i'm gonna so i call them i go hey i i live you know i can skate there you know take me like an hour to get there but i i have these paintings and i don't want to send them in the mail i never sent paintings in the mail before and i'd rather save on the shipping and he's like, I don't know you, dude, and I don't really, but I had already sent the color copies and the pages that they had printed, but man, and he's like, but all right, I guess you could come, and I'm like, yes, I'm going to go to the Larry Flint building.

2:05:45This is going to be so cool, you know, and I go there, and he's just like, yeah, if you just tweak all these paintings you already did, we'll use those in Asian Fever. We'll use these in, you know, like different, you know, there was hustler had like 20 different other magazines and he's like yeah like that story is awesome we'll print that story and i was like okay cool so i'm like am i am i a writer you know am i part of me was like i'm a writer i'm a published writer technically you're a professional writer at this point and at the time i was also writing for vice i was writing for giant robot also not getting paid like this was the first time i got paid so it felt like oh did buttman pay you no they didn't because they we had that fight and they never sent the you know apparently they quote only print the truth but they also don't pay their bills so yeah the truth only goes so far for them so i it was me it was like i can see a lot of my mom in that now of how the reality is i'm not successful i'm a pornographer but in my head I'm like I'm published I'm a real artist like and I'm a writer I'm a scholar you know like I and then he I remember uh WT Nelson paid me and then it wasn't that much money and like and now it's just like that awkward like yeah we usually don't have the artists come to the it's all like through mail and I don't know you you want some porn this was before Facebook yes Yes.

2:07:21Because the reason I ask is, and I don't want to take you off track, because I was wondering when Facebook eventually paid out, when the equity popped, basically. I'll get to all of it, and I'm going to time jump, but, like, it's just I want to stay in the feeling. Please. I'm trying to, because these are all stories I've told before, but, like, I've never told them from, like, an emotional perspective. Please. It's always just been, like, almost bragging. Like, I go, like, I'm trying to, for the first time, like, sit sit in it and because i want to focus a little bit on the shame part you know and and and part of you know part of being an artist is just constant rejection it's like asking a girl out like over and over again it's like you're fat you're ugly no thanks you're not you know it's like and and for art it's art is different you know like what you think is cool i might think it's cheesy and it's like now i can see that but before i was like you're in the presence of greatness and you're saying no to me like i'm like okay okay all right i guess it's not good you know so it's what i present and what i feel inside i'm excited to share that matina the yerba mate drink i helped create is now available at whole food stores nationwide long-time listeners of this podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source it provides smooth energy without giving you the jitters and it has a lot of other potential benefits including helping to regulate your blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and much more.

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2:09:18It has zero sugar and it tastes amazing. And if you don't have a Whole Foods near you, you can also buy it online at drinkmatina.com. So they, I mean, part of it is they just started sending me boxes and porn was expensive. Now these spoiled kids today, it's, you know, you could see anything, right? It's just free internet but back in the day if you wanted to buy a video cassette or a dvd or or magazine those things were like 20 like it was expensive and now i'm getting these care packages from hustler just shit that i'm not even into like bodybuilder chicks with clit you know like just just a lot of shit and i'm like it looked crazy at my at my apartment like it was just i'd finally moved out of the house i was dating this girl this crazy actress and i just it was florida like every room in the house had some kind of it was like kind of my identity they're like dave the you know and she was starting to get disgusted she's like who am i who am i dating you know and i've always like at the core of all my addictions is codependence it's i don't know what's happening the world is scary I don't feel safe and I need to go along to get along and I need to do I need to make myself small so that everyone around me feels okay and at the cost of me that's what I need and so oh you like that kind of art then I'll I'm a chameleon I'll switch to that oh you like oh you like uh Fugazi okay I'll listen to Fugazi you know and there's like it's not black and white some of it's true and some of it's like a mask and I'm sitting there just really struggling, like stealing fish down my pants so I could eat dinner.

2:11:04Like I'm not getting paid. Like there's no money coming in. It's like graffiti doesn't pay. Like the pornography, like getting paid in porn is cool, but it's not money, you know? They're like, hey, you want, and I have a, you know, I have a sickness. I have a sex addiction. So it's like, hey, do you want 200 bucks or do you want$1 ,000 in porn, which is nothing to them? It's just, you know. so I'm having a I'm just having a hard time and I I get to my 72 Plymouth Fury who like every time I get in I could kill myself or something you know and there's a note on the door and it says uh doing a period peace movie in Los Angeles your car 1970 fits the time uh can we dress it up to make it look like an undercover you know pays something ridiculous like a thousand bucks a day or something i'm like fuck like hell like these small victories you know oh fuck yeah i show up the next day it's on the street everything in the street they made it look like 1970s there's all these other 1972 and they made it they put the the sirens on the top they took the license plate off and the guy that's like dressing my car one of the you know the the union guys looks in the back and he's like yo this guy has so much porn in the back of his car and i was like yes you know like and i go what's this movie and i see uh johnny depp come out of the house and he's got a blonde hair in a ponytail and it's blow that movie blow with peewee herman right but he wasn't in that scene and i'm like holy fuck i love johnny depp i'm like oh fuck that's johnny depp and um this guy's being really loud he's like this guy's a lot of porn not just like and i and i'm like oh yeah i work for hustler you work for hustler so i remember just that was the first time i saw like a celebrity on that level in real life and i was like oh he's kind of short but like he was like signing autographs and talking to everyone i'm like this guy looks he seems very friendly you know like he had that whatever charisma riz the kids say and star quality so then it's uh you know craft service lunch you know i'm i'm i've never been on a movie set before and i'm just like i'm getting paid to do nothing and just and i was like between all the the background guys i was the man because i had so much porn you know so i just had i grabbed a sampling of it I had some of the some of the ones that I had drawings in and I put some like book my like I you know I don't know it's like maybe Johnny Depp's gonna see my butthole paintings and be like hey paint me you know like I don't know that's my delusion right so I'm like is he gonna eat in his own trailer or is he gonna be down with the crew and he was down with the crew so it's like lunch and it was just a scene like with I think Ray Liotta and like all this and I'm just sitting there and I'm like I want Johnny Depp to see like I want to like I don't know and I'm I'm like who the fuck I have I'm like 23 I've you know I'm like I do graffiti like I got a car that doesn't work for you know it's like but I was like oh it's it's it's gonna happen so he's sitting down with the crew he's like telling stories and I didn't have to do it another guy was like hey Johnny this guy has all this porn and this guy's like oh really you know I can't do a Johnny Depp impression and I go and I was like my cue I was like hey Johnny like see this is this is my art and and you know I had some butt man in there I had a hustle I I grabbed a sampling of my you know maybe had some color copies of my my art and and he and he and he flips through it he's in his wig and he's like like it's it's a lot of butts you know it's like it's pretty singular uh vision I I go, yeah, I can do other stuff.

2:14:55And, you know, he just hands it back to me. I'm like, oh, fuck. I was like, oh, thanks, Johnny, you know. And I was like, oh, that was cool. And then I'm trying to spin that in my head of like, it immediately goes to he fucking hates you. Like, stupid, stupid. Like, why did you, you know, like, why did you do that? And then, yeah, I don't know the movie. Like, you know, when they do a Hollywood movie, they change the name. I didn't know it was going to be Blow. Like, that movie's awesome. and I feel like defeated and they're like hey you know we were gonna pay you for two days but we finished the scene so you're only gonna get paid for one day and I'm like I'm gonna get as much chicken as possible so I started getting the Tupperware and you know like I'm gonna eat for like a week off this craft service food and I'm I'm walking out and I see all the star wagons and I see on the door Paul Rubens

2:15:44meleka leka hi meka hi ni ho i'm like here we go like fucking my childhood i'm like and he had gotten caught and jerking off in a movie theater or something i didn't give it like i always maybe i can verbalize it better with the shame but like when winona rider got caught shoplifting or like all of that always made sense to me and it endeared me to it made me it made them look human Like, I was like, that's weird. My hero, my childhood hero that did Pee Wee's Big Adventure, Pee Wee's Playhouse, getting caught jerking off. And why did he do that? Why didn't he do it at home? But I, even those things I didn't understand.

2:16:22I was like, now I'm like, I love that guy. Like, I have nothing but compassion for like, and that's like a lot of stuff that I had to work out with myself. because a lot of things I do now is I work with, you know, murderers and at-risk youth and children. Like, I'll work with anybody because my old self is like, fuck this dude, fuck this person, fuck you, you hurt me, revenge, revenge, very Korean, you know? And now I go, you know, and I work with people in prisons. I go, if you're willing to be a better version of yourself, I'm not a scientist, but I can use art and creativity to work with you to be a better person or try at least if you're willing only if you're willing if you're not willing then I don't want to waste my time and you know you know great so you know fuck it I'm gonna do it so Johnny didn't want the porn here I read a little I don't remember exactly what I wrote and I was like biggest fan love you I I think I wrote like I don't care what they say about you like I'm still love you and I can draw other stuff but here's stuff I've done for and I left it on his thing I knocked and I I was too embarrassed to like and I ran away and I mean it just there was so many there was so many moments I remember you know and then so like it's it's gradual right like it's like okay and then this little thing happens and this but and uh you know it was like I don't know a decade before the Facebook And also, I don't pay attention to that stuff.

2:18:03So as the Facebook stuff was rising, Sean would text me and he's like, hey, you know those shares are worth a quarter million now? But then at the time, I was gambling, and I was making that much gambling. So I was like, whatever, I don't care. And he's like, oh, you know, they're worth a million now. And I had quietly become a millionaire by the time I was 30. I had a huge art show with Steve Lazaridis, who's Banksy's art guy. And I was like, I hit at the right time that shit. you know like oh fuck you dad look I fucking made you know like the art that he hated me for I was like look there it is you know um and there was always a lot of anger at that it's like you fucking live in a house that was paid for by like spray painted dicks motherfucker fuck you who you know like you know and it's like I love my parents it's a love-hate relationship it's complicated or maybe it's not that complicated but it's like um you know hearing i know how proud of even though it's not very asian for a parent from another country to say i'm proud of you like he he tells you know he he's like we like kiss on the lips he's like and he rubs my face like i fucking love you dude he doesn't cuss but he's like i love you i'm proud of you and it's like all that shit i just said it's like you know so i have a lot of compassion for for my my family um so like i remember

2:19:33and then things like i started working for vice you know i had this relationship with gavin mcinnis and shane smith and they just they're like hey you're you went to africa to look for a dinosaur you hitchhike like and this was as print is dying and things are they were the first early adopters of tech and you know they're like vice is gonna move to online i'm like who i'm always the guy that's like who the fuck you know it's like i'm like korean force gump i'm like just in the room with like the most important things in life happening and i go all right cool and they're like what can you film for nothing you know because it was like spike jones was there in the beginning johnny knoxville like you know it was like the beginning of of that advice you know and it all fucked up because of greed and all that shit but i was like every time i hitchhike something crazy happens they're like okay cool film that so then i started filming thumbs up i think the first i was what i was saying with time i think it was 20 years ago and i do all that shit and then it's like all the things like i was saying that i was arrested for i got shamed for embarrassed for now people are giving me money and jobs and they're like yeah all that fucked up shit can you do it on camera can you you know and I was like oh they like me my mother was right you know and uh so one day uh uh my friend Dave Chang who also is you know has severe gambling issues you know I didn't want to meet that guy because that was like looking in the mirror he was like everyone's like he's you but of cooking and I was like I don't need to meet like I need to meet with people that lift me out of my shit not that's why i hate meeting other addicts because then it's like you know like you never know how it like right now i'm sitting here telling if i'm getting if i'm being if i started this show telling you what i least want to share it's like now i'm addicted to pokemon right like you go oh you haven't gambled in a casino in 10 years you haven't you know and then you pat yourself on the back and then the worst thing happens my kid gets into pokemon i go into a shop i had no idea that packs cost twenty dollars i open a pack and the worst possible thing could happen i get the hit card it's like you got the the sunbryon the one thousand dollar and i'm like wait wait wait hold on wait what and i go oh this is gambling and in six months i i've gone from like maybe i'll spend a hundred bucks which which at the time i was like for fucking cards and now i spend thousands of dollars a day on it and it's and now and i always i always turn my addictions which i'm always open about into my job but it's for work the buttholes that was for work you know everything's for work it's like oh now i'm drawing on the i got one for you i'll give it to you later i drew on mike tyson for you because i know you like yeah i should get context that dave sent me a text yesterday he said oh what's your favorite pokemon and i don't know because I don't all Pokemon.

2:22:38He goes, what's your favorite athlete? And I said, Mike Tyson. That's a Pikachu painted on top of Mike Tyson for you. Oh, this is so dope.

2:22:48So, I mean, it's like - Thank you. You're welcome. You know, the addictions, the things they say about addiction is it's baffling, cunning, seductive. And so I'm like, oh, I'm not - The gambling comes up in other ways. It's like trading cards, you know like little things and it's like i don't i'm not as a middle-aged man and i'm shaming myself it doesn't feel good to be you know like like i'm friends with guys that are like like money mark who's in the beastie boys like he's 65 and my friend bill poon who i used to do a podcast he's 62 so like i'm i'm a middle-aged man hanging out with other middle-aged men in the middle of night talking about predator badlands talking about like childish arrested development type of shit i go and then the thing is like i've been to cult countries and cultures where they're like even being a mormon and like when you turn 18 there there is a a ritual that happens that says now you're a man and we don't have that in our culture so that's why you have grown men wearing pokemon t-shirts and talking about fantasy it's all the same fantasy football it's all fantasy it's all immature shit and you just have grown men collecting toys and comic books and talking about cards and and it's like okay if it makes you happy cool i guess but there's always there's always a part of me that's like dissatisfied like like i i do like my daily affirmations of like i don't i don't need to do anything today for andrew to like me like i'm enough like i just i have to sit in that and i'm like no i gotta and then i i got it from you you know it's like we talked once on the phone before i showed up today and you've sent me a mountain of this yoruba mate this delicious matina and i'm like that's i fucking like this is like crack to me now and i'm like oh this guy i don't know is the setting hey can I get some more of that and I told you I was starting to get sick and you're like oh I'm gonna send you some peptides and I go what a sweetie and cute and like awesome and very handsome and like the your shirts the way they fit every time I'm like dude you got some guns and like the clothes look good I'm jealous of your posture um and I just go oh this guy's a caretaker like I haven't I don't even fucking know the guy and he's sending me like I don't know if peptides a drug, but he's like, I'll help you, Dave.

2:25:21I'll send you these experimental medicines and this. And I go, thank you. But also you don't need to do any of that. Yeah. Like I just wanted to meet you. And to be clear, I know I don't have to, it's in my nature to want to care for people that I, I, I feel loved towards. I know, but like we just met and I'm like, those things take time. And then you're like, no, I got people to do that or whatever. And I go, the cost, I'll speak for myself the cost of that at some point is you right when you spend so much time thinking of others you know and so and it feels like against how i was raised like oh fuck this feels selfish for me to you know like i never took a you know at at the height of my workaholism i was touring with my band my podcast was dvdsa was you know which i did with asa akira porn star and bobby lee and Steve Lee, it was becoming like the biggest, you know, it was, there was no one doing podcasts back then.

2:26:18It was Joe, um, Adam Carolla. I'm trying to remember. It wasn't that, it wasn't what it is now, you know? And so it was, it was insane. Like, cause I grew up on Howard Stern and I'm like, just hearing him fight, like you couldn't say a certain thing. And, and then he'd get punished by the FCC. And then someone was like, hey, Dave, you know what a podcast is? I was like, that sounds weird. What's a podcast? And talking about terrestrial radio and the FCC and rules. And I was like, it's a new canvas. I was like, you can say anything? You can fucking say, like, you could fucking cuss and tell, like, the worst story.

2:27:01And I just, I couldn't believe that it existed. I couldn't believe. And so, you know, and I didn't like come in with a mission statement. And I know intention is huge. And part of it was I was just running and running. But now in hindsight, I go, what was that? And I was, oh, shame chasing. I was like, how can I be as, how can I record the downfall of me? Like, how much can I go over the edge? How much can I push up against this boundary? Because let me see if you care. right and first of all i was like no one's listening turns out it was a lot of people listening but i didn't know that at the you know we started i was like let's just let's just go let's record our downfall let's record our bottom like as an addict like being being how like i'm chasing shame like i'm like in a way it's like this like someone who's like a flasher they're like what kind of person gets off on like running down the street i was like that's what i'm doing and I'm trying to, I'm not a mentally well person that I'm dealing with demons inside me that I don't know how to articulate.

2:28:11So I'm going to workaholism. I'm going, and I'm trying to find myself and find out what I'm trying, like I don't, and it's just so painful and I feel misunderstood and I go, let's just fucking say the worst possible things every episode and make fun of it like a joke And it's just like, I mean, once again, if I look back and I go, what's the worst things that ever happened to me? Jail, like getting canceled multiple times. It's like all of it led to the best moments of my life. So I don't sit here and judge, oh, this was good. This was bad because good moments lead to bad. It's just life, right?

2:28:51It's fluid and there's a spectrum of good and bad. so I remember just there was so many

2:29:02I'm like doing this podcast and in my mind I was like like and like having Howard Stern write me that going on his show and him telling me afterwards in private dude you're out of control was the greatest compliment you know Howard Stern the the despite you know the king of all media telling me and I asked him on the show if you can adopt me and i'm like i'm the prince of all media i fucking do comics and i do fine art i do graffiti i can do anything you know and to have that validation and and you know we don't talk regularly but you know i started sending him watercolor stuff and then he got into water and he's fucking really good like he like everything he went into it and so that was and then i at one point i was talking to his producers about being on on uh serious like right after him and i was like there's like jane cho was right i am the greatest like i can do anything and then you know people started listening and they're like these people are saying the worst shit ever and i was like i know but i'm just like don't they know i'm a comedian like you never told anyone like and that's not funny but whatever i mean i shouldn't have said like a lot of the things i said and i never gave i don't like As an artist, I don't like – like here's my black penis I painted on the wall.

2:30:24Like I don't – I paint and I do stuff. But the mistake that I made was words – like in the spectrum of entertainment and art, everyone watches movies and video – like that's up here. So that has the most eyeballs on it. Then you go all the way down to – at the time, podcasts, art gallery. Nobody – you do whatever you want. No one cares. and so that's how i was approaching it and people go when you paint the most fucking vile obscene disgusting shit it's still a painting right but when you say stuff people take it literally like you're coming at a microphone like um like it's an absolute oh shit i scared myself um that was so good i love that oh my god that was so good uh that was a good scream that was like your punk rock someone sampled that turned that into a punk rock song um but i i treated it like it was just another you know i i was it was sean parker i'm not blaming it was these people in my life that i witnessed as successful they didn't take reality seriously right i'm like i don't care what i'm gonna say i'm gonna push it as far as i can because i don't care because I don't respect reality.

2:31:40I've never have. Like, you fucking believe in Santa? Yes! Yes, I believe. Look into my eyes. I believe in Santa Claus. 100%. There's no part of me that doubts that. That's who you're talking to. A mentally ill person working on himself, trying to express himself as, you know, like a perfectly imperfect, unrepeatable miracle of the universe. That's how I'm trying my best. That's it. That's it, you know? So I meet David Chang. I become friends with him. He's like, let's go to dinner. I'm going to bring my friend. And his friend happens to be Anthony Bourdain. Immediately, like, I've met my brother.

2:32:20Like, I mean, he's older than me, but it was just, you know, ex-heroin addict, got through it through workaholism.

2:32:30And I could see that he was tired, you know. And he had a thing that he kept saying. he's like what what's your life you just fucking watch tv and watch the simpsons and you know he had this story like i have to live an interesting life and he's like oh i'm doing you know so i i developed a friendship with him because it was just organic like it wasn't like oh i want to he he was in a way grooming either chang or me or roy choy i don't know he liked asians but he was grooming us to take over basically and um and that that that once again fed my ego of like oh he's he can see what my mom he thinks i'm special like the guy that is the most interesting person on the planet wants me to take over like oh my god this is great you know so he's like my you know it's like you're doing you know his his show changes names no reservations it's it kept changing and so uh you know every time i ate with him it was insane i mean i don't know if he had eating disorders or what but it's anthony bourdain so you go in a restaurant and they bring out every fucking food right like everything and i go i'm watching him he takes a sip of water thank you can you wrap this up i'm like you're not gonna eat you know because everywhere he went every chef wanted to and he's like Dave if I ate all this shit like I'd be like 300 pounds you know so I'm like can I can I take it home he's like yeah you could have it and then as I got to know him a little better every time he came to LA he'd stay at Chateau Marmont and I'd be like is your life just eating at restaurants and he's like yeah I go hey from now on just come to my house my mom's like he's like I would fucking love that you know he closes it's like so whenever he would come to LA he would go to my mom's house my mom would my mom loved him like Tony and my mom were she he I don't know what his relationship with his mom was like but he loved my mom and he'd always he knew culture so he'd always bring the Asian pairs you know he knew like oh I'm going to a Korean's house and then after a while like when I meet people that I love and I respect I I value the friendship so I don't go and that doesn't mean I don't value you I was like I I would love to be friends with you first before doing your podcast, but I was like, fuck it.

2:34:57Like, let's just jump into it. We'll do it in reverse. Yeah, we'll do it in reverse. And same thing, like, I never asked to be on a show. I never, but after a while, he just was like, Dave, I'm doing L.A. And I go, but haven't you done L.A.? He goes, yeah, but this is specifically Koreatown. And I go, okay. I mean, I grew up in Korea. I was born and raised in Koreatown. But so then his producer, his production company, 0.0, I loved it because when I did Thumbs Up I'm everything I'm the director I'm the production it's just like Thumbs Up is me my friend Harry a camera guy and like a chase van that's it it's four people but you know I was like oh this is like what a real TV show is like you had guys setting up shots and it was like a lot of people and I go oh fuck this seems cool like you don't have to so he goes so his producer calls me and goes okay we're gonna set this show up for like two months from now and it's Korea Town centric and I go okay but do you want to do fake like I'm down like what do you guys need like I know all the restaurants and stuff in Korea Town now but Koreans don't eat Korean food like from my era we didn't have any money so when we go out we eat at Sizzler we eat at Denny's we don't eat we get Korean food at home you know like so if he's trying to do an authentic story about where I eat in Korea, it's in Koreatown, it's Sizzler.

2:36:22And like every Korean American I know eats at Sizzler. And so she's like, so you're telling me we're going to bring Anthony Bourdain to, you know, spend all this money to take him to Sizzler? I go, hey, I just told you, like, I'll fake it. Like, I know all the new spots. I know all the chefs. Like, we could, but I didn't eat that shit growing up. He goes, no, Tony loves authenticity. I'm like, we're going to fucking Sizzler then. So we do this whole episode. He comes to my warehouse. And he's, I mean, it's like, I mean, pitfall after pitfall. I remember at the time Channing Tatum came to my, like, he's like his agent, this guy, Bill, Korean guy, Channing Tatum's agent's Korean.

2:37:04And he calls me and he goes, my client Channing Tatum loves you. And like, it's like after all these things and getting canceled over and over again in comics and whatever field I went in, there was always, you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed to paint on a Mike Tyson card. You're not supposed to paint over this graffiti. You're not supposed to. There's rules that you're not following. And I'm like, it was this my whole life. So I remember Channing Tatum was also attracted to that. And he showed up with his agent. And he's like, he had just done. He was a pretty boy. He's one of the most handsome guys.

2:37:37But he's so talented. And I'm like, I don't fucking want to meet Channing Tatum. I don't care about Channing Tatum. And then he came to the warehouse. and he's like, don't think of me as just like the pretty boy dancing, step up from the streets guy. Like I'm about to do G.I. Joe, but like I'm like, and I'd put out zines and like self-published books and I write the way I talk right now. And he'd read that. And I was like, Channing Tatum read, you know, he goes, you're a great writer. And I'm like, there it is again. I'm like, I write porn. He's like, no, no, no. You have a way of talking and writing that.

2:38:12I need to be a part of that. Like whatever. I go, but I've never written a script. He goes, whatever you write, I'm going to produce it. And I go, holy shit, dude. This is amazing. And then like, I don't know, I'm time jumping. But at some point, I got a little cocky. And he put out 21 Jump Street, which Johnny Depp, you know. And I said, there's Ice Cube talking to Korean Jesus during that movie. Do you guys still have that Korean Jesus? He's like, oh, yeah, we made that for the, I go, if you guys want to work with me, I need that Korean Jesus. So they sent me the Korean Jesus, and I put it in my warehouse, and I prayed to it every night.

2:38:47I prayed to Korean Jesus. And what else? I mean, because of all the canceling, it's like if I get canceled at Marvel, then DC wants to work with me. So it's like, once again, being rewarded for the bad behavior. So there's this editor at DC Comics. Oh, cool. I can't draw Hulk and Wolverine, but Batman, Superman. and he this guy Axel Alonso who worked at Vertigo which was like the more adult like Sandman and stuff like that he contacts me and he's like I've been reading your fucking fucked up articles and vice he's like you're a writer I go that's the thing that I have the most respect for is writing like I have a book in me I've never I haven't sat down but it's like it's in here I'm too scared to to get it out but he's like he's like yeah your art's okay okay And he goes, I want you to write a book about, you know, it was like Koreatown gangsters.

2:39:43And it was shit that I didn't know about. I was like, fuck it. I'll make it up. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to write it like this. And he's like, no, you're going to write it and someone else is going to draw it. I was like, oh, okay. But he was like, and then I started writing it. And I start writing him emails like it's done. And, you know, email bounced back. He quit and like moved to Marvel. and I'm like oh oh fuck it was almost about to happen again you know and then um and then uh my podcast starts getting bigger and bigger and I'm so I'm I'm in my full workaholism I I've I'm aware that I'm an addict I'm like I'm in my full addiction I'm gambling with my life and life savings every single day while touring with my band manchi doing the news for vice doing art shows like legally around the world and doing illegal like just and people are like are you on coke i'm like i don't have chemical i don't do i get high off like i and each thing is like i have to do that i i'm not enough that's what i believe about that's what i did believe about myself and still sometimes today is I was everything the world had shown me is that besides from my mother is that you're not and that was also confusing because she sent me away and abandoned me so it was like you're telling me I'm the best but then you threw me out like trash so a lot of mixed messages and and and and the messaging that I heard growing up that I received was you're not enough your women don't date asians your art looks like shit it's you're not following the graffiti rules your art's a little too aggressive to be refined for it's just everything is just so everything had to be i need to be it's not it's not like i can kind of be in this field like i have to have the best podcast and in my mind that was howard stern so i was like Like, however extreme he is, I have to go, like, Howard's the ringleader, but I need to be the guy that's the, you know.

2:41:51And I don't care what happens to me because I've had third-degree burns all over my foot. Like, my brother's read my diary. I've been stabbed in my—like, I don't care what you do to me because it'll never be what I can do to myself. I've hurt myself. So then I'm in Russia or the North Pole interviewing. It's my first time doing the serious news. and I remember at the time Shane and Eddie and everyone at Vice we sat down and they're like Dave your podcast is out of control it's like and they and like they all know me they're like you can't say those things I go I can't say what the fuck I want I'm like this is Vice baby like we did they're like Dave and and it was like second season of Vice news on HBO the first season was Dennis Rodman in North Korea, getting a lot of attention.

2:42:41We start getting Emmy nominations. And the year that we did it, I won the Emmy for the news. I'm like, you know, my ego's like, oh, the first time doing the news, fucking nailed it. And I'm like, I'm God, dude. I can do serious news and I could do weird butthole talk on this show and I could do serious fucking delicate watercolors that could be in a museum and I could do the most craziest, like, you can't fucking put me in a box. and if you try to, I'm like, I am better than you. I'm better than you as a human being. I'm better than you as an art. And it was like, my friends just like, because it's easier when you're an alcoholic or drug addict, you're like, bro, you're unhinged.

2:43:18You're out of control. But it was just narcissism, hating myself, self-destructive behavior, just, and the people would come up to, come with me. I'd bring them to, because I controlled my addiction. Like I would, I knew that I had a problem And I know the nature of addiction is you can't stop. So I did something that I've never heard another addict do, which is I would hire people, close friends, being like, I'm an addict. I cannot be trusted. I'm a liar. I'm a thief. And so when I'm in my gambling state, I don't hold my money. So as soon as I win the number I told you I'm win, I need you to punch me in the face.

2:43:57I need you to drag me away from the table because now I'm going to say anything to keep going. So I can never touch my own money. if I'm, if I, if you see me falling in love with the girl and going into my love addiction, I need you to come and punch me in my face. And like, I gave permission for people to hurt me physically and to physically remove me. It's like, like if I was an, if I was an alcoholic, it would be, I'm at a bar and after two drinks, if you see me take a third, boom, and drag me out of the bar. So in that way, very sadomasochistic, but successful. Like I never, cause I had someone and they would only get paid if they got me to stop, right?

2:44:36But then I would pay these people to stop me and then try to figure out ways to, you know. So at the height of my workaholism is the height of my addiction. Like I got every, I don't sleep. There's days and then I had a heart attack when I was 35, an angina attack. I collapsed. I went blind. I collapsed. And of course, like a lot of stories, as soon as I didn't go to the hospital, as soon as I woke up, I was like, what the fuck was that like i woke up 30 hours later another day and i just went back to gambling but it was like you know i i could go into euphoric recall and just start telling like but i i don't want to like glamour because it's like i figured out how to how to be in the world if i have sex with lots of women and win lots of money and work really hard at all these jobs then i will be validated and and congratulated and held up high in this culture even though if i'm dying inside i need to i've spent so much time in shame i need to go i want to see what it feels like to be like a winner you know but then that's when i got there i go what do you do when you get to the heavy is the crown it's lonely at like i got to the top and i was like kind of boring let's the kid in the village with the match let's burn it down we got here it's like and that was my childhood literally i would spend a lot of time building giant legos with all the loot like we had like all mismatched legos that was like you know hand-me-downs and i would build a giant starship and my brother would come in cool and just smash it i was like i worked so long on that but that was me doing my brother is somewhere around about to destroy my career let me just do it myself let me self-sabotage myself self-sabotage it was like mini suicides you know and so it's all, I'm like, here, here I am.

2:46:28It's all, it's fine. I'm finally going to be, you know, validated as a human being, you know? And then I get, uh, you know, I get, uh, Vice telling me, Hey, you get, you can't do your podcast and the news. I go, then go fuck yourself, you know? And then we win the Emmy, but I'm not part of that anymore. And then, and then, uh, I can't keep track. Cause I keep, they're like, did you know, this artist got caught on saying, I go, it's on my podcast. It was my podcast. You don't fucking, it's not like I did it on purpose. You know, anyways, it just kept happening. And I'm at the sickest I've been mentally.

2:47:07And I'm trying to make sense of my situation while the world is also has its own issues. And I, and I, I just, I like, I hit my bottom. I just went so off the deep end. and my friends were all like you're gonna die like it's not like a normal od with drugs but you you like literally had a heart attack from like not sleeping and gambling for like a week straight like masturbating non-stop to pornography um just like video games like i couldn't stop playing angry birds which like everything's like so i can make a joke out of it and they're like that's your safety thing is to like make a joke out of it and so i walk in to you know a meeting and and uh channing tatum's dude is like channing ain't working with you and it was it wasn't him it was like hey i've spent all it was the agency it was like we've spent all this time building up a heartthrob teen idol thing he's not gonna be seen with a scumbag like you i go oh it's happening again shame I walk into 0.0 Bourdain's like when I'm done it's you you're gonna here's a book deal with my publishing company it your show is gonna be on CNN it's gonna be exactly like mine but with art like you're gonna travel around the art and it's like authentic to you because you already do that um I'm just like holy shit dude this is it paid off all the bad behavior Like, I met my kindred spirit, and I knew he wasn't happy.

2:48:44That's one of my, I can't watch, like, it's been years since all that happened, and I still, I can't, I can't. Like, I felt like I met someone who finally understood me.

2:49:04So I know it wasn't him, but, you know, I don't remember the guy's name. I remember them and they could have told me over the phone they're like Dave it was like getting caught at the principal's office it's like and I'm pumped I'm like my mom was right Jane Jo was right like the the most interesting man on the planet like my friend Tony is like handing you know handing me the baton like and I'm gonna do him like I'm gonna go for it like I wasn't married I didn't have kids I'm like I'm gonna fucking really really like I took it so seriously went to Nat Geo and like took all the meetings and uh you know I remember sitting at a table just like this and the the whole 0.0 production team was like we love Tony like he goes but we are not working with you and I go you couldn't fucking send an email like like what are you shaming and and all of this is fuel for me like they don't know this I'm like the more you fucking do this to me, the more you're giving me my drug, which I'm chasing, which is anger and shame.

2:50:09It's a fucking powerful drug, right? And I go, okay, just another on the list that I gotta prove wrong. Like, I will make you regret the same way Chip regrets fucking talking shit. Like, I will make you feel, you come at me, you better fucking kill me, because I'm going to fucking destroy you now. Like, I am gonna make the most awesome show ever, and you know Tony called me in a poll he's like dude I don't like they're their own company like we work together but they you know the optics aren't good and I go alright you know and I was like missed it by that much like

2:50:46so it and I had grown accustomed to it like this was it's not a new it's if I could just keep telling another like oh and then Marvel rejected me then DC then

2:51:01the episode i did with tony i take him to sizzler i show him how i fucking did a fusion with a meatball and a taco it was true to me right you know i hammed it up a little bit for the camera i wrote my wore my like shiny red sizzler suit but that was me that was how my family and it resonated it was the most watched episode like i introduced him to estevan oriole and mr cartoon He loved all the lowrider cars. It was a fucking L.A. episode. And it was like my friends. And it was like, it was awesome. I felt so good. And I just started getting, like, Sizzler asked me to be their spokesperson. And the episode is me talking shit about how horrible their food is.

2:51:40But it has this, I'll do it, guys. I'll do it. And so they're like, it's the most watched episode of that. And then we won an Emmy for that season. And I'm just like, and then that happens. and I'm like, holy shit. And then you go on Netflix or whatever it was on and that episode's just missing. I mean, it's back now, but they took it off. And I was like, just keep striking. And I'm like, what did I do? Like me playing Vic, what did I do? Did I do that? Like I'm Urkel. I'm like, you're a fucking idiot, dude. You do dumb shit that you shouldn't do. You should shut the fuck up and just... And when I meet the most powerful intellectually, like just these powerhouse humans, once again, it doesn't always have to be sexual abuse, but it usually is with men, right?

2:52:32I mean, women, I don't know that experience because I'm not a woman, but for a man to take your humanity like that, then I see, because it's PTSD, it's right, post-traumatic stress disorder. but then every now and then like I don't know what the exact stats are you get PT I'm making this up PTGD post-traumatic growth disorder it's like that should have turned me into a drug addict homeless person but instead I took all that pain and I was like okay rage I'll show you I'll fucking show you you should have never done that to me

2:53:11you should have never

2:53:16you should have never minimized me and put me down and disregarded me. And now I have to teach you a lesson. And I have to show you who you're fucking with. And it's such a horrible...

2:53:47it's such a painful way to live life and I can't live with that pain so I have to just keep doing more it's never enough I have to just keep showing you that I'm enough

2:54:13so then i'm just i i'm living in like a very i know i'm telling a very name droppy like douchey la story but you know i have anthony bourdain who's i consider a friend and my hero and my idol like i was in a gang called koreans god bad that was two people me and my friend harry kim but we wrote it everywhere kgb everywhere and then i remember the episode came out and he wrote kgb forever or something like that koreans god i'm like fucking my gang is harry kim and anthony bourdain like i just i was like it just it made me so happy that it's like tony bourdain is repping my set you know like like i'm a fucking game you know it's like it was two fucking dumb asses just writing drawing dumb bucktooth whales and i mean i miss that guy so much the people that were close to him like you and joe yeah it's the same response always so then i i'm you know i'm like lost i'm i'm i'm getting closer and closer to hitting my version of a bottom and i get uh I get a call from David Arquette, like the actor, you know, and I love all the Arquettes, you know, but David, you know, this is LA shit, right?

2:55:38He just reaches out and he's like, hey, I'm watching TV right now with my, I think, fiance at the time. And we just saw your Anthony Bort. And he's like, that's the most fucking LA shit. He's like, I wrote, I was in a crew called KGB. Kid's gone bad. And I was like, no, Kareem's gone bad, you know. Um, and he goes, it's crazy. Like I'm, I used to do graffiti and tag. I used to write KGB and I grew up eating at Sizzler with my family. And he goes, and I'm turning, I forgot. He was like, I'm turning 45 or 50. I forgot how old he was, but it was like a big one, like 40. And I'm having it at like, you know, Sizzler's almost out of business.

2:56:17I think there's like three left in LA. And he's like, and it's at the Sizzler that I grew up and I would love for you to be here. and uh all all that stuff always all like weird celebrity stuff always makes me nervous because I'm like I don't know if they're gonna be fake or you know and I'm a sensitive person like if I'm meeting new people and they don't like me I'm like oh I'm a piece of you know I I'm sensitive I'm a sensitive artist um so I go to Sizzler with my friend Critter I was like hey can you come with me and we get to sizzler and it's packed and it's there's the buffet bar with the cheese toast and he's like dave dave i want i want you to meet some friends here come sit at this table and i sit down and it's sasha baron cohen like my fucking hero and peewee herman and i'm like holy fuck dude and you know both of them are just huge art fans so like they don't know my art but you know david our kid talking he's like this guy's an awesome artist and they're like oh cool we want to check it out and um so you know sasha baron cohen like collects a lot of banksy and this and he's like fuck dude i gotta come to your studio i gotta you know so then i'm like oh cool like once again like this oh people like me and if people like me then maybe i like myself you know like and it's it's nice it's nice to be liked it feels good to be validated and liked by people that you look up to right so especially peewee herman's my art god like i said bob ross mr rogers dope but for me that's what i grew up on that fucking care the full commitment to that character the voice the king of cartoon penny the stop motion animation i just he's it spoke to me you know uh all the gary panter art so um i go fuck i don't know when i'm gonna meet this guy again i go hey uh i don't know 20 years ago 15 years ago you did a movie called blow and he's like oh yeah blow you know i go hey uh did you ever remember like getting a porn package on your step and he's like and like i'm trying to read his eyes he's like no i don't remember that i was like ah i guess someone you know but I did get his number that night and then um you know as I get I hit like like I wouldn't be here today without my friends just all who love me came and they're like Dave you're not like it it went too far this way you know you used to be this sweet nice humble guy and just you just you need a lot of help so I like everything else I just dedicate I thought I obviously it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life but including plant medicine therapy rehabs men's groups 12-step meetings just I whatever if someone said it was gonna help you I'm like you're just breaking like generations of all fucking Asians hit their kids all you know everyone got sent away every you know just like I know but I want it to stop it's either I fucking kill myself or I need I I needed to stop.

2:59:29and enough people caring about me made me care about myself enough and I and I did what I got the podcast the band like the people and they go they'll be fine everyone's gonna figure it out and i and i got help and um you know as soon as i was out of the first rehab like 45 days i was like i'm gonna do a podcast about this and they're like matt out there he's just like hey uh why don't you live this life before you start telling it's like but i learned so many ago yeah but why don't you implement it in your life and so i'm 49 now i rarely do podcasts i'd still do something creative every single day i like to do it with other people i i've i've you know i'd like to thank the sponsor today for this god you know i know people are like oh you're you're all your religious i go i don't you know i don't believe in god but i still pray to him and like god whatever you want the call of the like whatever that is whatever that thing that controls telepathy and santa and connection and all this he doesn't care if i believe in him he's still there right it's like such an ego thing of that i don't who cares what you the thing it's like saying you don't believe in the ocean the ocean is still there so i want to thank that guy and um and so as i live this life and then i start to be like what is my purpose why am i here what is you know before your art was about like disgustingness and offending people.

3:01:01And it was just a fuck you, just showing people, hey, Asian people aren't all quiet. Like you're a rebel. Like you're supposed to shut the fuck up and become a lawyer or a doctor. And then just like, I always tell people, they go, oh, how do I make it? I want to be, I go, I'm an expert in disappointing my parents. You must disappoint your parents. Like my dad is so disappointed in me over and over again until he's not but I'm like what would have happened if I didn't disappoint him I would have got a pretty high SAT I would have you know probably been on my second marriage lawyer golf like and he'd be like ah I don't know I don't know but I I know that he's proud of me now and it was like a long hard path to get there and so um I go I and part of me you know if you can't tell by now it goes like this the pendulum swings very hard so i said to myself i'm going to like everything up until now has been about look at me let me show you and it's like and i go it's it's i gotta take some space for me now and and and you know i work with all these youth groups and stuff and people go hey you know you did a lot of media and you did a lot of shit where you put yourself out there showing the worst part of yourself and like trying to prove to people that you're not a good person.

3:02:25It's like, you know, it would, it would like touch people and help people to see like your journey and your path. And I go, fuck that. I'm not going to put myself through that. Like I'm taking space. And they're like, yeah, but like at some point, are you going to share your story? And I go, no, that's too literal. I hate words. Words can be confused. Words can be misconstrued. I'm not doing that. I'm just, I'm just doing this. And this is enough like your ego goes oh i'm working with 12 kids today but if it was filmed it could reach millions of people and it's like no you're working with 12 kids today and that's it and that's enough right um but then at some point after you this is years a decade of recovery um i thought well part of the reason why i hate working with not and like netflix hulu hb it doesn't matter like they're all corporations they could be cool or whatever but um and even podcasts which was that's the conversation we had i'm like it all gets edited it's like as soon as anything gets a little and so i go i'll just make my own show because i have money to do that and it's not going to cost that much and then if someone wants to buy it they will or they won't so i started making my version of peewee's playhouse which was um the cho show and it came out on fx on hulu and and i got to learn what taking notes and having you know corporate feedback and whatever i'm grateful that it happened but they killed a lot of the episodes and um and everyone's like what's your who's your dream guest and i was like it doesn't matter i'll talk to anybody i'll talk to like the garbage man i'll talk you know but they're like it's for tv so you should try to get some celebrities or well-known people and i was like i want peewee herman you know and uh i had his number still from sizzler so i called him and i you know and peewee herman's like i don't know if he's just one of those people that once he gets your contact info you get a birthday message from him every year or a christmas card i was like it just every time i got it i would send show all my friends I'm like it just made me feel so good um so yeah I have those emails that Sean Parker said about like what he wanted from my art to disrupt the world I have the nice message from Howard Stern and I have the the voice so I called Pee Wee and he's like Dave I got some stuff some health stuff going on and and uh and he's like I feel honored thank you like you know I I love your art you know now he got to learn a little bit about me and he's like and I would love to be on your show but i just i don't know i don't want to be on camera anymore and and he's like you could send the episodes and i'll i i'll give you some like if you open to it i was like of course i you know and uh and it was just it just like i couldn't i couldn't believe that i was talking to him and he like was talking back to me as a equal and then uh i mean but i got it right away he's he's not gonna do it you know and then at the end right before i hung up he goes you paint butts really good oh man he got it he got it and i

3:05:41you know he's like i'm old i don't want to talk on the microphone

3:05:52um so i don't know if that has answered your question about um the south bay i know that was a long answer for the one question you asked me but i don't know like when people like i feel like you're an open person so if you ask me something i'm like and you're ready to go into my head space and and we can go there together then i feel like cared for listened to and like i'm like because you know you listen and they're not present they're looking at their phone they're like okay this show is two hours and i'm like i got law i you know and that's also how i write very long run-on sentences no punctuation um so there's no like creativity is such a hard thing to have a conversation about because it's not like my my path is not someone else's path and um and today it's just every day i wake up which with what i didn't have before which is gratitude i just wake up and it's like i had a horrible day today like it was not good like the fucking like flat tire uh appointment canceled move back fucking crazy family shit happening with my dad and i was just like i i wasn't gonna cancel but the feeling was like it's not this not the right headspace to go and then i said you know what every

3:07:22like I could sit there and like self uh analyze oh you have depression you have this and it's like almost some weird OCD like and you're a horrible person and you and you you have antisocial traits and they go okay and then what are you gonna do about it you know and so I I sit back now and if I examine my life like a scientist I go hey uh what was it What was all that shit about on your podcast? Why did you say that stuff on your podcast? Why did you, like, do that thing that's against your value system? Why did you, what was about the fucking, like, all the suicidal ideation, all the times you try to, like, what was that about, you know?

3:08:09And not just, like I said, like, logically, I know if I sound hypocritical, not just trying to, like, analyze it, like, but just an examination of my, my own heart like doing an x-ray of my heart it's like what what were you feeling then and what and why like what is the shame hitting and why did you do that and like so i sit there and i go we live in a society i'll use i statements i live in the way the culture i was grown was when someone asks you how you're doing it's just good okay which aren't emotions that's all you say you don't go oh let me tell you like i'm feeling shame today and i you know so we live i live in i lived i was raised in a culture of everything's fine everything's okay get along to go along you know i was a lot of like asian only asian family in like a white neighborhood or black neighborhoods was like don't it's a lot of immigrant story right like don't rock the boat don't do anything to stand out we're guests in this country we're lucky to be here don't do basically everything I did, you know, like, you know, keep clear up the campground, leave it nice.

3:09:21And so I sit here and if I'm being introspective, this is all this stuff is like, this is why I say this would be intimate because it's just private stuff that I don't like, I'm trying to just, you know know my own heart so it's like what why what is the insane opening pokémon packs about like right you could turn that into a joke or like what is what is the unmet need like what is your depression telling you right now what is your anger if your anger is like unmatched with like oh there was like a little flare-up at school some kid said something to your kid and then like your response is like yeah like what's that about so instead of shaming myself and going i'm a piece of shit oh i did all this work and i and i'm still this it's just and i think if i can get quiet and right-sized in that moment instead of oh i need to like make a story in my head to be like and just just sit in that ugliness and uncomfortable like if i can do that i couldn't do that before.

3:10:30I can't, like, you have to either look at me like I'm nothing or I'm the greatest. I can't just, oh, Dave's kind of boring today, or he's kind of not making sense, or he feels like I couldn't, it had to be all or nothing. It was very black and white, very Christian the way I was raised, OCD, like God's way or Satan's way. And so now I just go, that's, that's Palo Alto. if I could find the Palo Alto in my heart, just like the mundane, culturally, like if I could sit in the boring, mundane space and I dare to be mediocre, dare to be moderate and just like, like I said, the feeling is like, oh, what's the sensations?

3:11:15and I could then that's where the brilliance is then I could find my inner spark I could find and and and and then in that is when I feel the closest to you and other like if I'm with another person who's closed this is like just like banging my head against the wall but if I can meet another spirit or soul and you're it doesn't have I don't have to agree with you but it's like you're I don't like I've been talking my ass off I understand that like we could we could go all night right and if you share with me your heart then it's a shared brokenness you don't get to where andrew huberman doesn't get to this with a smooth like shit went down i don't know but it's on your face and it's like a vibrational thing right like you don't you don't fucking tattoo your whole body if everything was cool right you don't just become as smart as you are without like if you want to destroy me intellectually you can like i won't i wouldn't i would be like like right so if i can sit in and be vulnerable and say like hey i'm not perfect but i'm not a piece of shit i'm enough like i don't need to do anything today and and that's for me that that was like like these cultural moments of watching outcasts be inducted into the hall of fame and andre 3000 going i'm not gonna rap but everyone wants you to that's not where i'm at right now I was like, fucking amazing, you know?

3:12:47Or Tarantino saying, Paul Dano, it's like the worst part of There Will Be Blood. I was like, wow, that's the best thing that ever happened. You saw like everyone come out to say how brilliant he is. I mean, what if Tarantino just said, Paul Dano's amazing? So I just find these, like what is, without trying to like psychoanalyze or overanalyze every moment of my life, just go, the space right because i i've done the brain mapping and they're like the way it was explained to me they dumbed it down they're like you're not a psychopath because you do psych you do psychopathic things but you actually care about people you're not a psychopath and they say the the space in your brain there's like a bridge like here's reality you know he's like it's like should i jump off this cliff and like most people will executive function like okay maybe i'm gonna get hurt and like that that bridge is smaller for people like you they saw like a little they go so you don't really think you just do and then that's how you you're like how did i end up in jail how did i fucking like and and and that makes for a great story that makes for a great fucking life or like a storybook crazy life that makes for and and that's a a story that's just told oh like you need to be a fucking psychotic insane crazy person to be the greatest artist right if you're just like a you know boring person living at home with like air conditioning and wi-fi and your warm cup of earl gray and you could do good art you could even do great art but you won't ever be the best because you're not you're not facing your shadow you're not looking at yourself you're just that's just technique that's just craft that's just skill like i'm ripping my fucking heart out and showing to you and be like what do you think i'm not saying what do you think i'm like fucking what do you think you know no i i feel it that i mean i feel it okay you know i mean i i um sorry there's like spit all over the table please don't apologize don't apologize i no please don't slobbering right into your microphone no apology you guys almost got me there no apology um i feel it i mean i i um i feel it and and everybody feels it and um if they don't they should take a look inside like we're we're we're we're it's gonna sound like i'm name dropping now but go ahead go for it i'm very i feel very blessed yeah to have rick rubin as my close friend right not because he's rick rubin who produced all this music that's super cool too yeah but because he has antennae and he can feel shit yeah and he can feel it but he doesn't get absorbed in it it's very interesting i don't have that yeah i feel stuff and it it like the the it just yeah and um i i am certain people feel your heart in what you do the self-sacrifice part is hard to hear about i can relate well i i i talked to rob a little bit because he's like a pr dude before was a pr he's like a producer i mean he's out of it yeah that smile hides a lot of pain right there look at that smile but uh yeah i yeah it's hard like you know they say these all these like dumb quotes like no is a complete sentence and it is right i go no and then have to make up some fake like oh but like i got you know i i my car did get a flat tire but that was a that used to be a thing i would make up and then people would be like let me see the metadata metadata on your phone and make sure that's not a screenshot from like two years you know like um so i would lie and and make up excuses but the the ability to it goes against how I was raised it goes against my culture to just say no to my parents no to jobs no to think like leaving money on the table saying so that I could put myself first for the first time and and nurture my own heart and take care of myself is like it just sounded like that's i'd already written my story i'm like you know and then when you have heroes like bourdain like i think a lot of people also killed themselves after bourdain did that because they're like if the most interesting man on the planet the guy that's a role model a guy i look up to like he's not he can't fucking figure it out then fuck what's there and and then almost validates it like it's so you can do it too like anyone like uh so i it was just it just i had it written out like everyone i look to look up to and it's so fucking boring and cliche when i think about it makes me so angry it's like you know live fast die young and then just have people say nice shit about you and it's like or just be a little bit more boring and have wonderful relationships.

3:17:58Like I, you, you call me and you go, Oh, you're probably busy. I'm like, I'm not that busy, dude. I'm not a busy person. I make a lot of space for myself now. I don't like, I, I, and I deserve it. Like I, I, I owe that to myself. Yeah. I was about to say you've earned it, but you never needed to earn it. You know? Yeah. I'm glad to hear it because, um, will you commit to taking a year off? I could use some time off. all right so that sounds like i'll start the negotiations at a year and then if i can get you anywhere close to that because people will be like oh shit you know like the american vacation is like a week or two weeks right that's nothing that's like barely enough time to yeah i have all these war stories i don't want to make this about me but i have all these war stories like you know my girlfriend at the time she'll validate these as you know being you know diarrhea and vomiting while writing a grant back when.

3:18:52I mean, I've had so many wonderful opportunities, but I've been going pretty hard into the paint since I was 19. Like, that means nonstop. That means, like, 50 to 100-hour weeks since then. Like, what's the longest vacation you've ever taken in your life? Four days. I mean, this isn't me deflecting. It's just, like, I just met you, and, like, I'm so happy that, like, Like, I was like, if I can, if he gives me the space to speak, which you did, and you can feel what I, like what I was trying to say. And like, to me, like, that's all I want is connection, right? Like, that's, I want to be seen now before I was hiding and wearing masks.

3:19:34But in that, I felt you. And I go, I didn't know what you were going to say, but I was like, it's going to be less than a week. Because you don't get, because I know, you don't get to where, nobody does. everyone pays the price you don't get to where you are right now by taking time off you just don't but like you just said to me i'll say it back to you you deserve it and i i and to speak to the workaholic part of you and i say this to people that are like you and me you will have more ideas more inspiration more like you can't think now because you're thinking about how's rob going to get paid how's the because you take care of a lot of people right but in that time i could come i could get rid of all this black i could make add some color here i could get you some white t-shirts you could spend time with your family just the shit that you're running from you know and i feel like okay a year is unrealistic you're like i'm running out you know but it's it will like people oh go do plant medicine i was like just taking a year off and first weeks or months will just be you unlearning the workaholism of just i gotta do something to have value and just um and i feel like it will when you come back you'll be like like a thousand you know like and sometimes in our culture we get knocked down not by our choice and then but i'm like this would be by your choice you know i i taking care of andy today love you rob love you all you guys out there but you know you know what i'll run your podcast while you're gone that would be i'll do all the science i'll you could feed me some big words to use but um and i'll go paint oh my god i'm gonna yeah i'm i feel more comfortable with you now it's like like I think I would lie to you like whatever whatever you showed me I'd be like oh that's cool but like I think it's cool that anyone who's an egghead who spends time up here I think every thinker needs to spend time playing music or painting because it's just it's the opposite of that right you're using the other side of your brain but it sounds like the way you're painting is very in your head and I would just rip you out of that and I it would be very uncomfortable but then you could see the kind of like life right you just see throw shit at the wall and see what sticks and and and through that it's about control right i

3:22:16had i had to you know and part of being in 12 step in recovery is like and you know and the wisdom to know the difference, you know, the serenity prayer, is I had to, like, you can't control Mother Nature. You can't control a fire. You can't control what other people are going to think about you or say about you. You just can't. You could try to, let me write a paper and, like, so that, and, yeah, you could do that for a little bit, but it's tiring, and it's exhausting to try to get all these people to believe what, you know, like and and and so i yeah i just it it it it's and it goes it's anti it goes against to the word winning and the wind surrender right like i win every day because i surrender constantly now and part of that i gotta still fight because it's like you sound like a loser why are you giving up right it's going to fucking shut the fuck up pick yourself up by your you know bootstraps and get back in you know like that's how you become the best like all the other artists they're like dealing with like you don't have kids you don't get married you fucking paint you go to the art store you buy all the paint up you fucking keep painting you steal all the paints like just keep painting never stop and it's all gonna be worth it because one day you're gonna die and then legacy but now we see legacy is nothing right i get i get in an uber get in the car fucking smells like teen spirit right one of the greatest anthems ever guy in the car 27 years what's this well i'll tell you you don't know fucking nirvana okay you have you seen goodfellas like whatever whatever who's the godfather like go down the list the greatest nobody cares right the great over the greatest science so it's just this it's just this this is all you have so you've done enough people fucking love you you've helped so many people and i want you to take one year off and i don't care if people are like fuck that guy that guy helps me every day i want to hear his soothing voice every night but i'm like ai bro just use it no i'm kidding i'm just saying i would love whatever you've been running from whatever you've been doing to like you help a lot of people but do you help yourself on that level and it's like yeah um starting painting that's taking care of like it's not complete all or nothing but someone like you and other people like you are not gonna outsmart the feeling right you're not gonna outrun the pain and it's like like I don't know what your father was like I don't know what your mom was like but they're proud of you like you don't need to do more like they're proud of you and and like if you go to what i said the only way to really make them proud is to disappoint them you just got a fucking andrew i'm really disappointed in you then you know you're doing something right you know i'm sorry for talking over you no i was interrupted what are you what like your face says a lot so i just want to know what you're try to um well the part about legacy is where i was interrupting but it's not i let let's let it pass because it yes and yes the legacy thing it it it's nothing it's nothing um like i've done i feel like i've done so much in acting like i've done all these things and people are like who's that chinese kid i'm like it doesn't matter well they don't say it doesn't matter like you do all this stuff so that you have something to leave behind and i go you just have this you just have like right now today and that's it and like we're gonna we did this today and then and then it's off to the universe i i can't control what people are gonna think about me and it's like I came here today with my intention of meeting you telling you how you make me feel and how like how much I appreciate you and I did that so that's it and that like I have no ill will I'm not trying to like yeah I probably talk shit about a lot of people right now but it's like fine okay that's that's my and I should probably just let all that stuff go but to tell someone who's used to winning who's fought like tooth and nail for everything they had to fight and like prove people wrong over and over again to tell someone like that hey just surrender it's like fuck you dude you don't like you don't tell me that like um so yeah that journey from head to heart is it's a big one and that's why the like you can't say that to everyone right because they're like i gotta fucking but i'm like i i don't know your financial situation but i'm like i think you could take a year off like um it's not for but but that's the other thing right like it must be nice Dave from your perspective and I go I was homeless like I've lived the worst like like people for like I know I sound defensive but like I've I wasn't born rich like I worked for this so it's like must sound nice from a rich guy's perspective and I go if if I think back to my happiest moments or even just my most creative moments it was always less it was never more right so when i lived in a tiny house that means less doors to open less walls to we're living together and it's you know and it's fucking cold but at least we got body you know i'm making it sound like uh you know like we're we were okay but i'm like we didn't have that much and it was it was great because we had each other and and i think back and i go okay creative output let's go to work you know let's go back into my head i go oh every time i had like a renaissance level creative explosion there was no wi-fi and there was no heater it was always freezing it was cold like you're talking about deprivation yeah like and then now like it's just it would be with my uh attention it would be impossible for me to get anything done if i didn't go out of my way to block all my electronic devices i couldn't do it my social media is on a separate phone goes into a lockbox that can't be coded out to get work done.

3:28:28I mean, what I hear, well, first of all, I want to be clear that. I don't need an answer from you. I'm just throwing the challenge of the gauntlet down. All right. I would love for you to take one year off as someone who I just met, who I care about, and I, like, we're humans, right? Can't just run forever. Like, there needs to be a recharge, a refresh. like there's just things that i that you get offered i guess you're like i'm never gonna do that i'm not saying why don't you why don't you go to this retreat and just work on this part of your heart or this part of your uh journey for a month you're like i'm not gonna fucking do that and it's like but why not you deserve it and it's gonna be hard it's not like a fun vacation and like for me the way i think about it is part of part of like what because i take podcasting so like i'm it does i i try to manicure how i look and sound and i do a lot of recent people and i try to make it look like i didn't right like before i go on joe rogan or howard stern i like i i call up people and i fucking do like i talk for 12 i go is this work is like and then I come on and I try and that's fake and it's been years since I did a podcast I was like I I'm getting like a very genuine feeling from you and so I don't want to do that today and I was fucking that's why I was puking I was scared I was like I'm just gonna come in and I might say something that like fucks me up because it has so many times but I'm just gonna be the truest version of, I guess I could, that was scary to me.

3:30:06That was like really being naked. Like I, I like to be prepared. And I, like last night it was late. I couldn't sleep. And I was like, oh fuck, I can't believe. Cause it's like, I live a quiet, like I don't. And I was like, oh man, like, it was like, let me like, like, not like you're the enemy. I was like, oh, I'm going into enemy territory. What if he has like, I got you a question. Like I have to have you know like it was it was like I was at Vice again you know Vice was so much riffing and witty comebacks and I was like this is exhausting and I was like but can you just go and just you know and I realized it took me like two hours to answer like one question but that's I also accept that about myself you know but yeah I started like I started I Andrew Drew, and then it was like, it finishes your name.

3:30:58And I was like, I'm not going to do this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to just fucking read about you all night and then like have come in like prepared. Great. Great. I was like, I'm so glad. I'm so glad you abandoned that. I did. I did. I said, just fucking told me. Yeah. Man, I'm so grateful you showed up here in that frame, that no frame frame. Yeah. um i know as soon as i start talking if i say anything kind about you you're gonna get that thing but i'm just gonna tell you it i'll tell you um i'll prepare i'll sit there are a couple reasons you're here some of them i touched on earlier you're an amazing artist you're an amazing person but the main reason you're here is because a long time ago i saw you at a meeting and i learned from you there.

3:31:49And I was like, you know, I would like to be his friend. And I know I can learn a lot from him. So without getting into any details about that. I mean, you can, I don't care. Well, maybe another time. I told you. You know, you've helped me, you've helped me a ton. I also like, I have this model in my head. Maybe this is the scientist in me where, but I feel like you've made yourself like the anvil, the hammer and the metal, like, and it's like this cycle of the opportunity to do something, to feel something. And then, you know, I guess my friend Ryan Suave was right. He said, you know, people get addicted to shame, but to me, it's the whole cycle.

3:32:35Right. But the thing that I, I really want you to take in is that people learn from what comes out of your mouth. They don't like, yes, the stories are interesting, infinitely interesting and entertaining also. And yes, you have a gift for storytelling, just like you have a gift for art, but it's, you know, people learn and, you know, we touched on Bourdain who I didn't know. I know you and Joe were both close to him. I know a couple other people were close to him and, you know, I'm not here on a public service campaign. That's not how I do this podcast. I'm only here with you right now. But, you know, there are a lot of people offing themselves.

3:33:16A close friend do that recently. A very famous scientist that appeared to have everything. This kind of thing. And it's happening more and more. And I think that when people hear you, when I hear you, I know what people hear. They feel you. and they hear the extent to which yeah there are a lot of hard stuff and great stuff happen but you're still here and you're still going and that example is really really important well i don't want to i don't want to be a survive you know it's like i'm a survivor because i survived all this stuff but so did everybody and i'm not trying to like and you but you're still going but i don't want to survive.

3:33:56I want to thrive. Right. You're a thriver. That's why I think of like Korean Jesus or Pee Wee Herman and I go, it was like, I try to keep things light and entertaining. It was a lot. It was really painful, right? If you get it, it wasn't easy and it wasn't easy for everyone, but so then you go, well, will you work on yourself? Will you do this work? Will you go to a meeting? It's like, are we having fun yet? Right? It's like, it's a lot of fucking pain and work to just be, you know? And the question is like, I want to put, is like, are we having fun yet? Like, isn't, aren't we supposed to have fun?

3:34:38Like, you know, my son wakes up every morning laughing. I go, what the fuck is happening up there? What is, like, I can't remember the last time I woke up smiling. It's like, and I'm like, oh, if we can remember, like I like it was dumb doing the secret word but I I loved it like you guys scared the shit like I I you know and it's people uh you know trigger warning they do like there's a lot of people killing themselves like on an epidemic men like I don't know that many women but a lot of men and so a powerful tool because I've done so much reckless it's a miracle that I'm here right now and I'm not saying that to be like I could have been dead a lot of times so I say to myself without aggrandizing myself or being on some guru messiah type shit so I made it through that I am having fun despite how much I cry and stuff but even that like i i wouldn't i would be called a pussy and all that if i did that and i go i just allowing myself to feel everything and and and so i i i learned this tool called just play the tape out right so you go if you're an idiot you're an idiot but if you're have any level of intelligence you go well how do you think this ends for you how do you think this drug problem ends for you How do you think cheating on your wife ends for you?

3:36:15How do you think nonstop, like it doesn't end well, right? That's one of my favorite things to tell my friend. That's okay right now. It's mad. I go, but addiction and it just escalates. It doesn't stay, you don't just kind of like, and then someone like me, it escalates very quickly. So it's dangerous. And addiction loves novelty, right? So if someone's sucking dick for crack in an alley right now, that little boy, he wasn't a little boy when they go, I hope I do that one day. That happened. It started with weed. Then it went to coke and it just escalated, right? He wasn't like, I want to do degrading acts that I don't want to do for drugs, but it escalated.

3:37:01And that's on the addict side. But I just found myself having a lot of weird broken problems. I swear I'll never do that. But then I'm like, here I am in this weird place doing weird shit that's going against my value system. Here I am. Oh, I'm chasing the shame again. So I know this is kind of hypocritical because I'm applying logic again. But if you just talk to someone and you use this tool of, hey, you're not an idiot. Play the tape out. your behavior that's like chasing a bottom or destructive or not that destructive yet, but it's on the path. And you're like, yeah, I'll be all right. It's like, just play it out.

3:37:39Like, how do you think this ends for you? Right? I go, I need to go back to podcasting. Right? And then I go on these podcasts and I go, are we having fun yet? Or is it like, you seem like you got the weight of the world on your shoulders. You seem miserable. You seem like you can find, like, I'm not, it's just like in general, I don't find podcasters like happy people. It's just like, I go, so when, like, you know, cut, let's go. And it's like, oh, shit, sponsors. It's like, I got to fucking, the numbers are going down. And I'm like, can we have fun? Like, is it only about making money and just, it's enough.

3:38:22Like if, and it's, it's, it's because we live in a society, especially if you live in a city where the messaging from billboards to social, everything is telling you from the second you wake up. It's not hundreds, it's thousands of messages telling you you're not enough. Right. And so I do the brain mapping. I do it. And it's like, wow, Dave, you're really hard on yourself. You say so much. It's, it's, it's, it's like, if someone said that to my friend, I would. Yeah. I would do something. So it's like a lot of punishing, like self-talk. And then it feels gay to say, I'm enough. You know, it's like that's that again.

3:39:05Why do you have to say it like that? It's like, oh, I'm worthy. I am a good person. I am a good father. I am a good friend. I am a good brother. You know, it's like, this sounds like just self-help. But I was able to brainwash myself into believing I was the best artist in the world. so why can't I brainwash myself into thinking I'm a good person? So then I go, when I meet people, I want to say nice stuff, like real stuff, not like that's how I feel. It's like, that's weird. I don't want to just tell someone his shirt fits good on him, but it does. I mean, even for black, it does. So the tools is like, you know, writing with deodorant, like a thick, white, chunky deodorant.

3:39:44Just so I see it, so it's in my psyche because every day it's billboards of good looking people and I don't look like that. And so the messaging is all fucked up. And unless I'm just going to say fuck all internet and just move to the African wilderness, which I might do, just right on the wall, I am worthy, I'm enough. And I see it every morning when I wash my face. And it's just like I'm starting to brainwash myself. It's like that's one tool is like telling people I love and I care about how I feel about them, not till they're dead, not till it's like they're in their bottom. And I'm like, hey.

3:40:17And it's like, I tell them every day because that's, that's, that's all we have. And then I say that about myself and then I can catch myself like that bridge that was like, basically like a suicide bridge. It's like reckless behavior, reckless, irresponsible behavior, immature behavior. But all of this shit is hard because I'm coming at it with generations of a story that says you need to stay sick. Like when you hear Kanye say, bipolar is my superpower. Like there's a part of me that's like, of course. and I like my art is fucked up. The more fucked up you are, that's true genius. That's, you know, and I go, you know, I have friends close to me that go, as someone who's as creative as you, is so, you're so like boring and small thinking when you just buy into those things.

3:41:04It's like, like, is there anyone who lives a moderate life, just a regular, does everything doesn't have to be jumping on a train and like that is doing great art? and I go, show me an example. And I go, but couldn't you be the first? Well, there's ego and narcissism. And it's just like, just, and then, okay, fine. Let's just go, let's go with, let's play that tape out. Let's just say for you to make the choice to be a normal person, you're never gonna have the best podcast or the best art. You're just gonna be kind of like right there, 70%. What's wrong with that, you know? But that's not, that's going against everything, right?

3:41:40So I have to, it's hard, you know? and especially something with art where it's in, there's just people that are like, you're literally doing the worst art I've ever seen in my life. You know, I wish, you know, it's like, oh, their first album was good type shit, you know? And there's part of me that's like, yeah, the earlier stuff had more angst and way more detail and more labored over, and the stuff now is way more looser. But I love it now. Like, I like myself how I feel, and it's very rare that you have, you know, the whole lonely at the top that you have these champions people that are like the best at what they do the top one percent of the world champion of this this that you meet them and they're just like a content satisfied happy they're just miserable and you're like what was the point what why and and it's either you you have the courage through yourself and friends to to make that change like i'll if you take a year off like we're gonna hang out a lot like we're gonna paint we're gonna start some incentive like we're gonna do all that but it's like like it's always like you got to do it alone that was my message like shut like shut the fuck up don't complain like very asian very korean like don't say anything like someone fucking treats you like shit just keep your head down and just it's all revenge is a dish best served cold you know just fucking shut don't ever let them know see what you're coming see how you feel and just your your your revenge is success like just like that guy treated you shit at work then just become the guy that owns that business and then fire him you know like um oh i'm so fucking glad that guy chip got fired that felt so good chip sounds like an asshole he was such an asshole but i so you just I have and those things all these tools are like okay cool they're all simple okay wake up every day and say I'm a good person yeah it's simple but it's hard it's not easy you have to like work at it and feel it yeah like oh get up every day and do 100 pushups I could do that but I don't but you could it's like but you care about your physical health but why wouldn't you do that for your mental health your spiritual health you know oh I'm not religious it's like spirituality is It's the ocean.

3:44:02It's the universe. It's, it's a power greater than you. Right. So, um, so I, yeah, that, that playing the tape out is a very valuable, powerful, like I, I need to take action in this way. And sometimes the action is to do less and it's to do nothing where where everything growing up was do more.

3:44:31And I was going to say, am I making any sense? But through your face, I could see that. I feel heard and I feel understood in this moment, which is very special to me. So thank you. Thank you. You are absolutely heard and you're absolutely understood. And I'm very grateful to you. And I know everyone listening is too. The permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is, that's oddly the hardest thing. But the encouragement is heard. It lands. I think also because I talk so much about shame, and I'll end it with this. It feels like hope and faith is also a very powerful drug. And sometimes, like I said, with my mom or me believing in Santa, like there's no logic in that.

3:45:25But, you know, entire wars and nations are fought over faith and, you know. And I feel like because I'm sensitive and I'm empathetic to everybody that I meet, that it feels like a really hopeless time. and I feel like that's why there's a lot of self-harm and depression and um so it's like weird it's like how would you be hopeful in a city like LA where there's like 70 ,000 homeless people like natural disasters drug epidemics you know just all this shit and it's like then to to you know to to to brainwash yourself like if because it's that that's what the connection is It's like if I don't believe it, to go out there and meet someone in real life and say, hey, I'm having – it was like the hardest thing to do.

3:46:20It was like I need help right now. I can't. It's like weird to admit to someone that I can't do like – I can't even come up with one nice thing to say about myself. Can you say something nice about me? That sounds very egotistic, but I need that right now. I really don't like myself right now. And to have someone say something nice and you go, okay. maybe tomorrow I'll be able to say something nice about myself. And then you're building something called hope and faith. And so I don't know. I told a long Pee Wee Herman story, but at the end of that, I was like, what was that? It's like, okay, that's resilience.

3:47:02That's taking chance. That's believing in yourself. But I never gave up hope. you know it's like and it's just and that's delusional in a way but that's like how like if you take facts and numbers and it's like this is the end of the world this is like me I was gonna kill like all this fucking doomsday post-apocalyptic it's like I don't need that shit dude I don't watch horror movies I don't surround myself with like that's fine like that's everyone do your own thing and like I said you know we were both like we like punk but we don't like hardcore like I used to love hardcore because it's I needed that I needed to hear that message vibrationally and spiritually and sonically to go like oh that guy's singing at a frequency that's resonating with me it doesn't now and I fucking hated reggae my whole life because those people were happy and now I listen to reggae you know I go reggae on the river whatever you know like and I'm just like you know and I immediately judge, I can't believe you're fucking listening to reggae.

3:48:08This is like stoner music, but the frequency is hitting me now. So I can be appreciative of hardcore music. But yeah, if I look back and I go, what was that? What the fuck was that? It was just screaming for help, lost, and hopeless. and I just go hope is a hard thing to have in a time like this but not if you ask for help not if you reach out not if you connect with other people and that is gonna be impossible to do if you don't you need to you know now I sound like I'm gonna fucking know it all but it's like you need to deprive yourself of electronics like it has to happen like you can't have real emotion if you're watching TV or your phone.

3:49:01Like, it's the only way. Like, any time... It's like a secret language. Any time I'm out and someone has a clamshell phone or a flip phone, a dumb phone, whatever, a brick phone, they have whatever you call it, I give a wink. I go, yeah. Because I know. I'm like, this guy, he cares about himself. Because you can't... Oh, I gotta fucking... Like, no, you don't. You don't need to know who's being murdered on every country and what are you going to do about it? Nothing. So... I believe, I have faith that we're all here for a reason. And to anyone listening, and I don't know when this is coming out, and I didn't know, I honestly didn't know I was going to publicly come out about my belief in Santa Claus, but it is the season.

3:49:48Is this going to come out soon or after Christmas? Okay. Just try it on. Just like, I know it's stupid, but just believe in Santa. like all the i know kids already do but any grown-ups bitter jaded adults listening just just try it on this this year just and if you need you know he can teleport he's a mutant he has special abilities and he knows if you've been naughty or nice so yeah i don't i don't know we could i could like this is the problem because where we're at now is when i would start like This was like the pre, like when I used to do my podcast, DVD, I'd say this would be like, oh, it wasn't a podcast because it wasn't a conversation.

3:50:29It was you talking the whole time. And we're three hours in and be like, okay, now let's start. Let's get ugly and real. And be like, nobody likes to talk for nine hours, dude. I'm like, I do. So I'm going to, I feel like you'd be down if we wanted to go six more hours. Easy. And we could maybe do that one day. You should. But I feel like, I don't know, am I, you know what? I'm surrendering. I feel like, unless you have more shit to ask me, then I'm down. Oh, man. In the language of meetings and other things, I think for now, we're complete. Thank you so much, man. Thank you. Thank you. That was so, I mean, I feel good.

3:51:19I feel good, too. Very grateful. Thank you. Thank you.

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